Are Toulouse and Bordeaux the greatest club sides in the world?

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1:42hello welcome back to the ruck the journalists rugby podcast from the times and the sunday times the last 16 of the champions cup is done and dusted we got the quarterfinal lineup to look to this coming weekend plus the start of the women's six nations welcome along my name is alfie reynolds alongside me in studio on a bank holiday monday look at the work ethic you'd love to see it is alex low and elgan alderman morning lads morning good morning how are we really good good good alex you look like you've come in like an old-fashioned all-blacks jersey today

2:12Elgan Alderman: for a midweek game against uh pontipal abattallari combined 15 i have without yeah it's actually

2:19Alex Lowe: from a company that my i got a mate who has started up his own rugby jersey company oh really i wasn't intending on plugging it but now you've mentioned it alfie old old novo and a lot of the jerseys are based on like yeah classic old okay nice shirts this is just the yeah all black the all black one no i like it a lot check it out uh you guys were both over the weekend at various last 16 games in the champions cup we'll look ahead as i mentioned to the quarterfinal lineup which looks really tasty this coming weekend the women's six nations and we're also going to be having a chat with mark palmer he was at the edinburgh game in dublin on sunday and he's also there in glasgow for their win over the bulls on saturday and absolutely torrential conditions as well now you two actually can get out of this one quite easily but last week on the pod because you weren't on myself will and charlie were kind of saying we're all waiting for the quarterfinals really in the champions cup aren't we but were we unfair alex did the last 16 go past certainly our expectations many people's expectations I think so and I think part of what was so special about this weekend was what it has set up so that unquestionably what what we're waiting for in the quarterfinal weekend is it is part of the conversation so the kind of the two best teams in France meeting the two best teams in England you know Elgin was on the French double header and your socials you can you know anyone who's been to knockout games in France the colour the vibrancy of the colour in in Toulouse and and Bordeaux like it just reinforces that a the jeopardy be the um the tribalism you get in this competition and I thought in the games that that weren't close so pretty much your Elgin's two games the standard of rugby on show from the two French teams was otherworldly it was just as close to perfect rugby as you'd ever want so you didn't get you didn't get the humdinger contest but you've got you've got some something really special I thought Friday night at Northampton, Saints-Castra was a riot and just loads of fun.

4:14Alex Lowe: The skill level was incredible. I was at Bath-Saracens, which was a fascinating game in its own right. I think really only Quinn's sale was a dud. Toulon, Stormers, we've got to talk about how that one ended. There were so many storylines. There was jeopardy, there was tension, there was tribalism. And it set up a quarterfinal weekend that is thrilling. There'll be some sizzling games there. So yeah, I think you were a bit mean on it. But the Champions Cup does have its issues. And the reason we love it is for the weekend. We've just had the weekend that's coming. And that's why we give the organisers grief.

4:48Alex Lowe: Because it takes far too long to get there without this sense of tribalism and excitement. Because it doesn't matter enough early on. And now when it really matters, you see it. And that's what makes this competition so special. As Alex mentions, Elgin, to be fair, the games you were at, Toulouse-Bristol and Bordeaux-Leicester, were really, really one-sided affairs. But I look, Northampton 49, CAST 41, Bath 31, Saris 22, Toulon 28, Stormers 27, Glasgow 25, Bulls 21, Leinster 49, Edinburgh 31. All of those games, I think, a lot closer, certainly than I thought they were going to be.

5:21Elgan Alderman: Yeah, I think it all came from that opening Friday night game because CAST probably have a reputation for not travelling very well and not being that fuss. There were pockets, handfuls of cast travelling fans. That must be a really select club of cast fans that would travel to Franklin's Gardens on a Friday night. But the fact that they went so close, one thing that shows is that it started the weekend in such a positive mood and it just kept going thereafter. But I think subsequently, you look at the Toulouse-Bordeaux results and the instinct is to go, oh, France is just so much better than England.

5:49Elgan Alderman: But it's not. It's just that Toulouse and Bordeaux are better than everyone else. We are living in the duopoly now of the two greatest club sides in the world. In the first two main provincial centres outside of Paris in French rugby, they are just better than everyone else and we'll get on to it shortly. But the last two, three seasons, it's been about them and everyone else in European rugby.

6:10Alex Lowe: I did think reading Will Collier's column Friday and Saturday's paper, brilliant column and it stands, I'd go back and read it if you haven't read it, fantastic perspective on life and food in French rugby but I read that and I knew that Castro were going to rock up and I've been to plenty of Castro away games where they haven't and they've left they've left key players at home and they've decided to focus on the on the league and all that like they they were up for it and and it made it a brilliant contest because you had you had they had a point to prove you know the Henry Pollock basketball celebrations and they were They were finding motivation from the crap food laid on for them in the Northampton hotels, as Will had explained on the RAC.

6:53Alex Lowe: They found some motivation and they went for it. It made a great opening. I thought it really set the tone for the round of 16. And then we saw it again in the game you were at in terms of Bath Saris, where that game in the Prem a few weeks ago was an absolute demolition and a hell of a lot closer. Yeah, loads. And actually, similar start in that Saracens were 10-0 up. and they would turn up at half time on Saturday. They'd had a 10-0 lead in that league game a couple of weeks back and then collapsed. Collapsed to the point where Mark McCall was accusing the players of giving up, openly questioning the fight of the team.

7:27Alex Lowe: What did they really want? Well, he got the reaction. He's actually had the reaction in the last two weeks because they gave a really good account of themselves against Northampton at the Tottenham Stadium. Just lost. They had the wind behind them in the first half and used it well. 10-0 up, dominating the set piece, winning scrum penalties and they were in a good position but Bath, Bath just have depth, they have experience, they understand how to win these games and they chose to play into the win first half. They had the win behind them, it was a strong win second half but they also brought on Thomas Dutoy at half time who fixed the scrum issues immediately and that just denied Saracens a route back into the game and bang suddenly in 10 minutes it's it's 14 10 to bath and they did saracen's never they never gave in they didn't do what they did two weeks ago they kept banging away and they carved bath open they get to the line and they are one pass away from scoring to to retake the lead and uh marco ricchione's pass is just behind andy on yama christy sort of shoulder height you can't hold it spills two passes kooker singers away and they score length of the field and that 14 point swing was the defining moment in the game that was sort of based on Tom Stutorek coming on the scrum turns and then the wreck is lively and rocking and Saris don't go away but the moment that they the Bath score from the length of the field the gap's too big and but it was a proper contest and you know at Bath we sit right behind the away coaching team and analysts and it's just i took as much fascination just watching mark mccall because this was the last game that really mattered for him well i was gonna say that's part of the thing here right yeah for saris is they're out of the top four race basically no maybe not mathematically but they're not going to get top four in the prem no they're out of europe yeah and mark mccall who's been this guy that has been there through an incredible period of success it is just kind of petering out.

9:31Alex Lowe: Yeah, I think they got, they're still a team capable of delivering on a one-off day. They beat Toulouse. They played really well, I thought. On Saturday, they're just not as good as Bath, which is no disgrace in English context. But as the wreck is jumping and they've scored a 100-metre try, I looked just in front of me to the right at Mark McCall, who was emotionless outwardly, as he often is, and unmoved, but his mind must have been going in a million miles an hour because this was all they had left to play for. And they were unlikely to win it. Elgin's talked about the powerhouses in France and Bath and Northampton are the best teams in England.

10:12Alex Lowe: So they were always unlikely to win it, but this was all they had left. And speaking to him afterwards, the question was put to him about, well, that's the end of your relationship with the Champions Cup. And he sort of took a moment and he said, I hadn't really thought of it like that. and he was part of the Ulster team that won it in 99, injured for the final, but helped lift the trophy, won it three times as director of rugby with Saracens and then he said, well, we frame the rest of the season by trying to build some experience into the younger lads so that I've got something to hand over in the summer to Brendan Venter and that's it, that's where they are, that's the season done.

10:45Elgan Alderman: I'm glad Alex mentioned the Mark McCall as a player thing because when the coaches have story with this competition as well, it adds to the magic and the gravitas that we talk about the history of this competition pat lamb being another one who won it as captain with northampton in 2000 so whenever people say to him are you going to arrest players for this trip to south africa for this game against toulouse that people aren't expecting you to win he'll always say no we're going to go at full throttle because i know what this tournament's about because i've been

11:09Alex Lowe: there and i've done it and i've won it 100 and mark described it as a magic competition a great competition and alex anderson at sale was making a similar point in the week about you know guys who's played in it, they hate sending weak teams abroad. And he feels they've been forced into making these kind of decisions. But they don't want to. And as you say, the players who've experienced the magic of it, as Mark McCord calls it, particularly when you get to this part of the competition, they know it is something special. It's a competition that delivers that kind of cross-border, cross-culture tribalism that no other competition does.

11:47And actually on the point of teams rotating and it often being a problem, we saw what can be so good about when the South African teams don't rotate. Because both, I mean, the Bulls against Glasgow, who are a really good team, we'll speak to Mark more about them in just a moment, gave it a really good go. And then let's do the Toulon Stormers, because what a game, by the way. What a crazy, crazy ending. And what an opportunity for the Stormers to have won away in France, like a great opportunity. Yeah, I mean, well, you have to say they blew it. Yeah, I mean, to the end of the game, I think I might get some of the timeline of this wrong, but like with a minute left or virtually the clock in the red, like both teams turned the ball over.

12:27There was then a knock on that was going to give Toulon a scrum, which you thought then would end the game. But they came back for the high tackle from Mar Nonu. Stormers kicked to the corner, even though they had the tee on. Feinberg and Gomazulu was thinking about kicking it. And he has a boot on him, by the way. I remember watching the game a couple of years ago that South Africa played at Twickenham against Wales, where one of these matches that they bring up north and they sell loads of tickets at Twickenham. And I was watching him in the warm-up bang over penalties from like 55 metres. He's got that in his locker, but they decide not to go for the points.

12:56They kick to the corner. They go through the phases. They're in a great position. They don't opt for a drop goal and eventually they then get held up over the line and that's the game.

13:04Alex Lowe: Well, first thing, if the tee's on, I think you have to take the goal. That's my understanding of it. I didn't know whether they thought the penalty was in a different spot to where it was. I'm not sure. I'm not too sure. But they're also... Nona got Simbin. So Toulon are defending with 13. Yeah. And, yeah, Storm was kicked for touch. They rumble from 25 out and they're on the goal line and they're pounding away. And I'm just seeing... I'm watching it in the stand at the rec thinking, well, just drop the goal. Like, there's no pressure. You've had enough phases that Toulon are having to defend the pick and go.

13:39Alex Lowe: like they have to so they'll have no one charging it's a chip shot it's a chip shot from in front you've got to take it and they get over the line and Olinvin who seems to sort of manoeuvre his legs underneath John Dobson wasn't happy they thought that he was offside didn't they the Stormers I think yeah and I thought that's what they would be studying on the TMO but they were just looking for a grounding

13:58Elgan Alderman: the drop goal issue it's something that obviously we talk about all the time when people are near the trial line I think modern players are so unfamiliar with it as a method of scoring but they probably view it as a really low percentage option whereas they probably view the pick and go as the more likely method of scoring whereas there would have been a time where players would score more drop goals than tries in a game in the season.

14:20Alex Lowe: Do you remember the World Cup in the quarterfinal in Cardiff? The France-New Zealand quarterfinal? If Dan Carter lines up a drop goal they win the quarterfinal against France in 2007 but they just don't even think of it and they got loads of criticism then for being almost like two, like with your back, we will just score tries. Three years, four years earlier, England won a World Cup on the back of, and they won Grand Slams on the back of drop goals. It's, it's sort of wild really that George Ford is sort of seemingly the only front line 10 for whom that will be a genuine option. Like Finn Russell doesn't, doesn't go drop goals either.

14:57Had it a few years ago, didn't we, with Finn Russell, where it became, I can't remember what game it was, where it was a big thing ahead of it, would you kick a drop goal? I think Finn Russell was like, I don't think I've ever kicked a drop goal in my whole career. Yeah. So no, why not?

15:08Alex Lowe: It's such a great... But as you say, it can be, between the way you are, but in this particular situation, with the quality of 10 who's going to be taking the drop goal and the lack of pressure that there would be because they were camped on their line, that was a high percentage attempt, I think. It's very different to say when Ford got charged down at Murrayfield, where Scotland were defending really aggressively, England kind of botched the whole build-up and he should have pulled out of it, as we know I don't think any of that would have been a problem for Stormers and then they'd have gone through but once again the South African teams just failed to go deep in the Champions Cup and also they'd put themselves in a position to win the game having it look like they were going to be out of it they scored a try late on make it a one point game they'd get themselves down in scoring position to win it but that's what you know that's what these great games deliver these moments you know sometimes you think the game has to be like that for 80 minutes it often doesn't it just needs it needs those moments where everyone's holding their breath what's going to happen next and you know you could you talk about the 14 point swing at the rec as being a moment that just defined a game and that's what you remember you know props would remember Thomas Dutoy and everything he did but you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah and it's that everything builds to this crescendo and he's over the line and everyone's holding their breath who's won who has won this game it's yeah magic I love it is the counter argument to everything we've said and the positive stuff to do with the Champions Cup encapsulated in Harlequin's sale in some ways.

16:42Half empty stadium. Yeah, but I

16:45Alex Lowe: sort of hold them as the exception that proves the rule really. It's sort of slightly odd. The pool stages were slightly odd in that Toulouse ended up being ranked so low. Quinns and Sale who are really struggling in the Prem both end up making it round of 16. Now Sale are through to the quarters you don't have to be flying in the Prem to get through as Northampton showed last year but Northampton are a better team than both of these clubs and yeah it definitely gives lighter the EPCR sort of view that the competition is selling out everywhere and is brilliant everywhere I thought it was really strong with big crowds in a lot of games this weekend but yeah it's two poor teams in a stadium where the ticket prices were not cheap like the worst seats were still 50 quid they're playing again in a couple of weeks in the game in the prem for which season ticket holders already have in their in their package neither these teams are going to are going to win the the competition which i don't think should matter but i think if you're feeling so negative about your club as quinn's fans currently are i'm not not surprised there were six seven thousand unsold with harlequins it's more about their

17:54Elgan Alderman: performance last year than this year because i think a lot of debate is with how low they finished in the table last year should they have made it into the elite european competition this year because this year actually, fair play, they went to La Rochelle and won. So once you're in the competition, they did great things to get that far. Look at Toulon as an example. They're 11th in the top 14 this season. They're sort of in that similar zone to Harlequin's. It's just that so much of the air has come out of Harlequin's season since that La Rochelle win in January, which no one saw coming. It's just we talk about how a competition can offer, a different competition can offer so much respite and the likes of Northampton, as you say, can go so deep in one competition when they're going badly in another one.

18:33Elgan Alderman: But the air has just gone out of Harlequin so much that even that didn't matter anymore. One really quick newsy point just off the back of this game, which I think is worth noting, particularly given the fact that a lot of the time, Alex, we're covering England in international periods, is Luke Cowandiki's injury. And Bevan Rod. And Bevan Rod. In particular, I look at Hooker because we spoke about this through the Six Nations and an issue of depth there. Jamie George was being asked to do a lot of work again, which was like throwback to 2023 World Cup wasn't it? What do you think it means for Steve Borthwick with that trip to South Africa coming up in terms of England's hooker options?

19:07Alex Lowe: Well I think he was going to have to do this anyway because he had evidently lost faith in Luke Howlandicke's line-out work if nothing else and partly his discipline and tendency to give away those no-arm tackle, chop tackle penalties which cost England a lot in the Six Nations. I think he was going to have to look at alternatives anyway bridge the gap to the next generation and now he has to so it'll probably be a good thing for England in a way that the interesting thing is who who is top of the of the list obviously Theo Dan came on the came off the bench for Saracens he's been in around England now for for years again another hooker whose set piece isn't trusted but you look at the way that Keputu Pilato plays I would have thought he's top of the list I know Nathan Jabulu really useful to have a hooker who can play back row as he has done and maybe in the world of hybrid and versatility, a Schalp-Britz type player who you could include Dion Fary who could cover two positions who could be really valuable in a World Cup set up but I think Turpelotu, they wanted to secure him as English, the RFU he's on their rapid pathway, he's playing more now towards the end of this season so I wouldn't be at all surprised if he benefits from Koundike's injury and maybe Craig Wright who won the Under-20s World Cup in that same team as Henry Pollock and Archie McParlane they like him obviously Nathan Chibulu but I think probably Caputo Plotu

20:37Elgan Alderman: Yeah I think he's probably the front of the queue Gabriel Ogre might have an option and again similar type of player he maybe isn't as he's not going to start a game at 6 but he's the type of player that if he had to fill in in a back row position like 6 or 7 later on in the game in terms of hybrid then he'd have the ability to do that as well, you think.

20:54Alex Lowe: Yeah, I agree. The fascinating element, though, for a player like Gabriel Ogre and Keputupolotu is how much... Is there much more of the Theo Dan mould of a hooker? The sort of Dan Sheehan, like, super athlete, highly skilled, wants to play in the open spaces and create things. And I don't know if that's the hooker that Steve Borthwick particularly wants in his pack. Alfie Barbary's got

21:19Elgan Alderman: the practice of throwing again.

21:20Alex Lowe: Yeah. He's grammaging. Yeah, I mean, like you know he his move from the from hooker to bat row was sort of engineered by eddie jones he wasn't that keen to stay at hooker but if eddie jones had told him you need to stay hooker while he was at wasps he probably would have done but he went through that period his transition from an under 20s hooker to a senior bat rower largely came because wasps needed him to play bat row at that point so he just he made his breakthrough into the premiership into senior rugby as a bat and then Eddie Jones told him to stay there. And so actually, you do wonder, had he remained a hooker, he might have been in that perfect sweet spot now to be the guy.

21:58Elgan Alderman: It's rare for it to go that way as well, because we're quite accustomed now to seeing sixes turning into twos. I think Derry Lake's an example of someone that kind of moved forward to hooker and obviously now he did so well, Captain Wales and the Six Nations as well. So yeah, strange for it to have been done the other way around. And it happens a lot in academies now as well, I think. I was going to say, you hear about so many players that start in the centres and then they slowly, it's like a black hole that just draws them in to the front row. If I can flag just a couple of pieces in terms of the hooker situation in England, Barnsley has been writing about Tua Piloto and then the back end of last week, we had an interview with Nathan Giubulu as well.

22:28So go and check them out. If I can finish off on terms of the last 16, I think it's worth just highlighting again or sitting with the point that you mentioned right at the top, Alex, of the style of rugby that Toulouse and Bordeaux are playing at the moment, which you watched front and centre Elgin in terms of the way in which they approach the game, the attacking flair fairly even first opening to the period between Leicester and then as we've seen so often these teams do Bordeaux bang bang bang and they're out of sight by halftime.

22:59Elgan Alderman: It's a combination of things it's you know you go back to the 1980s when Toulouse the sort of not the first great Toulouse team but when Toulouse became great again after a long period of drought and the Pierreville pro school that still informs everything Toulouse now it's all about finding space whether that's out wide whether that's in the middle it's all about just anticipating where the ball is going to be and where you need to be to get into space from an offload i think pierre volpro doesn't refer to them as offloads they're all passes it's just whether it's in contact before contact whatever and that informs what toulouse do what france who and what what bordeaux are doing right now it helps obviously they've got brilliantly talented players in forwards and backs you can do all of that also helps that they can win collisions over the gain line which enables them to get forward and to do that but yeah you're just looking throughout that Bordeaux and Toulouse team you know it'd be obviously it's impossible forever to happen but individually they're probably better than the France national team because they're you know club teams the two best club teams in the world the way they go at it it can just be unstoppable I think the um the figure on Sunday at the Stade Chaban Delmar was that uh Bordeaux had made 27 offloads and Leicester had made two and uh Jeff Parling said afterwards I think the average in a Prem game is nine so you know it's it's a different style of playing but once they get going it's just

24:15Alex Lowe: so difficult to stop but it's when you explain it the Ville-Prault style it's it's so it sounds so simple it's just go forward and if you can't go forward move it to space where you can go forward which is just sounds really basic but it's a it's a mindset thing so you'll often see Toulouse and Bordeaux that particularly the big carriers they'll be going forward if they get you know if they engage in the duel they will just shovel the basketball pass out out the back it's not about you they just don't want to die with the ball because if you die with the ball if you if you create a ruck you give the defense a chance to set so the whole thing is just about playing fluid rugby keeping the ball alive going forward and and finding space and if you can't go forward you move the ball even if it's a what looks like an unconventional shovel pass or a little like one-handed over the top or whatever it is to then find to then find space where you then can go forward and that's it's that's really it but it's a total mindset shift from that to the kind of pod work organized structure of playing three phases and then box kick it's it's you know not that you don't see these teams box kicking when they need to but it's it's a it's a mindset difference um and i don't know really why that can't become all rugby like why you know why Why does rugby have to be such an organised, structured sport?

25:35Alex Lowe: A lot of it, I think, is coaching control. Do you think you need a team to win a World Cup where that is the way in which they play to be able to set the standards for everyone else? It would definitely help. You've seen a lot of teams with... World Cups, historically, have not won that way. Set-piece, kick pressure. Pressure affects so much. because then with pressure, with jeopardy, throwing the offload or the pass out of contact or shoveling the ball backwards because you trust someone's going to be there, the risk of that grows because the jeopardy is so much greater. But yes, we're seeing teams winning Europe playing like that.

26:15Elgan Alderman: We've seen France play like that. Obviously, they've had ebbs and flows, but we've seen that be their ethos for the past 40 years. And I think there are acolytes in Britain of that Ville Pro way. There are sort of schoolboy courses where you can learn to play this freedom of movement style. But I think if you spoke to a lot of these coaches, they'd tell you that there's just still a lot of resistance in this country. There is, coaching resistance. Yeah, it's coaching resistance to fully buying into such methods.

26:43Alex Lowe: Well, Ben Pegner, who we've had on the pod, is one of those. He goes and coaches. He spends time in France with Pierre Villeprault. He learns the methodology. And he was a real believer in it. and it produces highly skilled players but it's also not one-dimensional if you think back to the Tottenham Stadium the Champions Cup final when Toulouse beat Leinster my abiding memory of Toulouse winning that game is Antoine Dupont playing like an auxiliary back rower doing what is necessary winning turnovers so it's not it's not a one-dimensional high-risk style of rugby it's and it's not and I think that's the other point they don't see it as a risk obviously the the bigger the game the more jeopardy there is but they don't see it as playing risky rugby it's it's rugby whereas I think there's a mindset in in the UK that that actually it's safer to play a more ordered structured game because you're you might cut out you leave less scope for for an error but I think you know you look at that the way that Toulouse won that final it was about it required other elements to their game but that's what I mean it's it's not a one size fits it's a It's a mindset thing of when it's on, you back your skill set and you look for space and you try to keep the ball off the floor because that's what rugby should be.

28:00Elgan Alderman: And because of the manner in which France, Toulouse, Bordeaux can strike so quickly from turnover ball, they'd actually tell you that kicking, chasing and defending is a huge part of the game because that's how they win the back and then they just score before you've been able to do anything about it. I was going to say, it's still a good set-piece, good kicking game. You're not going to be the best team in Europe and win the Champions Cup without that. But so much of their identity comes from the other stuff, which maybe we're more resistant to in this part of the world. It's like a cricketing analogy where someone who is a T20 slogger might say, but I can only do that because I've got a solid defence, which is what Viv Richards would have said back in the day.

28:34Elgan Alderman: I've heard Jacob Ethel say it as well. He knows when his forward defence is in working order, that's when he knows he can also slog-sweep for six. Yeah. Well, are Toulouse and Bordeaux the best two teams remaining in the Champions Cup? Well, one side that may be standing in their way or would certainly look to challenge them could be Glasgow. Next up, we're going to have a chat with Mark Palmer, our man north of the border, to reflect on Glasgow's victory over the Bulls, their tilt at the URC and the Champions Cup, and also Edinburgh putting up a much better fight against Leinster than many expected.

29:02Mark on the way, and then the other side of that, we'll look ahead to the quarterfinals and tee up the Women's Six Nations this weekend. so Mark great to have you back on the pod straight back from Dublin onto the ruck this is the sort of commitment that that we like to the pod we appreciate it no rest for the wicked but always a pleasure look Mark I want to get onto Glasgow in just a moment but you you've made the journey back from Edinburgh's game against Leinster a tighter match than perhaps you expected yeah very much so I mean if you if you'd said to me yesterday morning that there was going to be an 80 point game at the Aviva then we'd definitely have been fearing the worst but No, it was a very odd affair.

29:39You know, slightly ridiculous in places. Twelve tries, Leinster handing at least three of them on a plate to Edinburgh. So Edinburgh managed to score, I think, five tries without really having any attack. A couple of moments of individual brilliance, particularly from Darcy Graham. But at one point, you know, around the hour, they're actually ahead in the game. And you're thinking, what on earth is happening here? But, you know, that Leinster power game really kind of came to the fore later on. and we ended up with a result that we thought we would but certainly margin-wise it was a lot more respectable and a lot more hard-fought than probably anticipated.

30:14What did you make of Leinster, Mark? We're about to come on and preview the quarterfinals that we've got coming up this weekend and no doubt we're going to be waxing lyrical about Toulouse and Bordeaux and from our English perspective, Bath-Northampton is really intriguing but what about Leinster, a team that are so often thought of as one of the favourites for this competition but the perception, maybe they're not quite the force we've seen in previous years what did you actually make of them in the flesh? Yeah, you know, they've had a real up and down season generally, you know, a really bad start in the URC, have picked up considerably since probably around that November test period.

30:45But again, you know, they tend to make a struggle of every game, even the games that they end up winning. You know, there are some kind of real troughs. And again, that was the case yesterday, that they don't manage the game as well as we're so used to seeing from Blenster teams in terms of, you know, just throttling the life out of opponents. as I said they handed three tries on a plate to Edinburgh with intercepts which is you wouldn't have thought from Leinster you'd get that in a season never mind in one half so clearly have still got some excellent individual talent and again when they did go route one in the second half and turned up the power it was a really formidable weapon but they've got so many big game winners in there I don't see them going the distance in this competition and I think I would expect them to win that quarterfinal they'll have enough to beat Sale but then if they run into Glasgow in Scotland in the semi-final then I think that'll probably be the end of the road for them

31:41Alex Lowe: Glasgow must be delighted to be on the side of the draw that they're on you talk about Leinster not being the vintage team, they had another statement win against the Bulls, they have Toulon at home, they must be looking at the other side of the draw with Bordeaux and Toulouse and Bath and Saints thinking this is a prime opportunity. Absolutely And it has really opened up for them on the back of their pool campaign. And you should get some reward, shouldn't you, for a perfect pool campaign with 20 points from a possible 20. Albeit Bulls, as 15th seeds, they're a pretty good side to be in 15th position going into that round of 16.

32:17That was a really hard-fought win for Glasgow. And I think it was testament to just how many layers they've developed under Franco Smith, particularly probably in the last 18 months. that, you know, yes, they have the kind of crash-bang wallop pyrotechnics that we're so used to seeing that attacking flair, but they can, like we're talking about with Leinster, they can go route one as well, they can dig it out, they can be just as effective on the other side of the ball, and that was a real kind of gritty determination and kind of foul conditions that saw them through. How much was the weather a real leveler there, Mark?

32:49Yeah, I mean, it was grim, even by Scottsdale standards. It's always terrible at Scottsdale, as you know, but it was very windy, particularly that first half when the Bulls had the wind at their backs. They would have been looking to turn around with a much healthier lead than two points. It always felt more than a two-point wind. And Glasgow have been very adept in both competitions this year at using those conditions to their advantage. They don't have any issue with falling behind. They always back themselves in the second half to then come back against Toulouse. to know the conditions, to know which areas of the pitch to play in.

33:29And yeah, there was a real sort of composure and controlled element to that performance, as I said.

33:34Alex Lowe: Glasgow strike me, Mark, as a team who, yes, they can use the conditions. And the Toulouse game was a game I was thinking of pretty inhospitable for a team from the south of France. But Glasgow are a team who, when the weather turns and if they're playing in sunny springtime conditions, can also thrive. They're not just a team that rely on inclement weather. Absolutely. As I say, I think they've got so many different layers and pieces of armoury to go to now. And that's what all truly great sides and sides that end up winning competitions have, isn't it? They've got more than one string to their bow.

34:10They're not fixed on playing a certain way and only playing the way that the conditions of the opposition allow them to. They're adaptable. They've got resilience. they've got an all-court game that can come out in any set of circumstances. How exciting is it, Mark, that this is a Glasgow team that you look at now, the Champions Cup, the best in Europe plus South Africa, and they really have a shot at winning this competition? It's really exciting and I think it is literally unprecedented for a Scottish team to be in that position. Meanwhile, they're also balancing their league campaign as well, they've got a healthy lead at the top of the table there so there's a real confidence that they've got the squad and the capability to kind of go deep in both and it is lining up for them, you'd think that's a tough but winnable quarterfinal against Toulon and then again they have the home, at least home country advantage for the semi-final, it would be at Murrayfield for Leinster so yeah it's all there for them big games that they're going to have to win but again they've done that previously in the most difficult of circumstances on the road when they won the league.

35:20So yeah, what an opportunity to have. How do you, when you compare them to, or when you look at the teams remaining, how do you view Glasgow within that? I think a lot of people would look at Bordeaux and Toulouse, for example. I know Toulouse's seeding dropped off a bit, but arguably as the two best teams still in the competition. But how do you see Glasgow fitting into the picture with these eight teams remaining? I would think you're right. I think Bordeaux and potentially, potentially to lose although Glasgow would probably argue that point given what happened in December but I think those two on the left-hand side of the draw do sit on a plane above everybody else but I think Glasgow would then be the next the next cab off the rank in terms of as I say that ability to kind of manage different conditions different contexts and on the road and at home so yeah you know you would anticipate that the winner is going to come from the other side of the draw but I think Glasgow should be you know they have every right to think they can be right in that mix It's funny isn't it what a couple of months does, Mark.

36:16If we look back to November and you think about Scotland and there were questions, you know, not seeing out those big games or the collapse against Argentina, not seeing out the game against the All Blacks. And then all of a sudden they've had a Six Nations where I know they lost the last game, but I think you could argue it was their best Six Nations campaign that we've seen going to the final weekend with a shot at the title. You've got Glasgow that are right at the top of the URC that are genuine contenders in Europe. It is the picture. And I appreciate it's a fickle old business. and these things change quickly, but the picture pretty rosy at the moment in terms of rugby north of the border.

36:48I wouldn't potentially go that far. I think that the SRU would be very grateful for Glasgow because they're the bit that works and has worked for any number of years now. Edinburgh, for all, we're praising them for kind of digging in and showing resilience yesterday in Dublin. This season in general, it's been another write-off for them. They flatter to deceive us, they just about always do. And Scotland, as you say, some encouraging signs and good results in that competition but still it's a mid-table finish maybe that is the limit of our ambition I would like to think not but no I wouldn't say it's rosy I would say certainly Glasgow is very rosy but the rest of it probably still lagging well behind Well what Glasgow have to look forward to is that quarter final this weekend Mark we really appreciate you joining the Ruck as always and hopefully we'll be speaking to you quite a lot over the next few months with all Glasgow's exploits.

37:43The positive part of the Scottish game then, we'll say that. Tremendous. Thanks very much, Lydon. Just a quick breather to tell you about today's sponsor, Allianz, a partner that's all about opening rugby up to more people. Their support goes way beyond Allianz Stadium. Through the Allianz Future Fund, they've already put over £100 ,000 straight into community clubs across the UK, helping fund projects that bring new people into the game. And with the Allianz Kickstart programme now reaching 5 ,000 schools, thousands of kids are getting their first taste of rugby, some for the very first time.

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40:03so pleasure as always to have mark palmer on the pod we might be having him on a lot more regularly in the next few weeks depending on how glasgow go in the urc and the champions cup so alex elgin uh finishes off bath northampton glasgow toulon leinster sail bordeaux to lose four really really good matches but is by some distance bordeaux to lose the most mouth-watering of of all of them

40:26Elgan Alderman: we are living in the age of the garon so i mean bordeaux and toulouse great cathedrals of rugby they get 30 000 people to home games they've contested the last two top 14 finals which does not happen very often that two teams contest two in a row and who's to say they're not going to contest a third in their own now in the last two champions cups they will have met in the semi-final last year which bordeaux won to win the champions cup and toulouse who won the champions cup the year before that and now we're looking at them meeting in the quarterfinals and everyone thinking that whoever wins will again go all the way so this is yeah like as I said earlier this is the Bordeaux and Toulouse duopoly of the age they are the two great club teams in the world not just in terms of the players they have the way they play but also the cities the grounds the love for the game in those cities you just have to look at the match-ups that we could be having on Sunday You've got Dupont v.

41:20Elgan Alderman: Lucu, Jalibé v. Antimac, perhaps Chocobarres v. Moafana, Penno v. Gorg, BLBRA v. Teddy Thomas, Ramos v. Celestia Ryassi, and then we haven't even mentioned Miafu, Flamont, Wokey, and Tamifuna up front. So everything about it should just be an absolutely spellbinding occasion.

41:40Alex Lowe: Amazing. You did the double this weekend. We've spoken on the pod before about encouraging anyone who can get a Bordeaux game or a Toulouse game to do it. But just explain what the colour, they get there so early, the bands, the flares, the flags, it's such a special occasion around the match.

42:00Elgan Alderman: Yeah, so they're both cities with two grounds. They've got a rugby ground and a football ground. Toulouse, they've got the Stade d 'Elon de Suelan, which is obviously a great ground, but it's actually quite small. It's only about 20 ,000, maybe not even that, seats. So they upgraded to the Stade d 'Elon de Toulouse, which is the football ground. They call it the Putty Wembley, the Little Wembley, because it looks a bit like the old Wembley in a different part of the city. We got there about two, three hours before kickoff, and there were a group of people tailgating in the car park. They had prawn on a barbecue.

42:28Elgan Alderman: They'd been there since 11 a.m. in a way that you just don't see in Britain quite so much. So the atmosphere is just there straight away. Obviously, it's a big city. It's the grandest rugby club in the world. They are the aristocrats of world rugby. So they've got all that history. Bordeaux, very different story. They've got two historic clubs, but they merged 20 years ago. So it's this funny situation where you've got the great rivals of the age. One of them's got 25 Bucliet de Brunus and seven European titles, and the other one's got one European title and zero top 14 titles, albeit the two clubs that formed them originally do have some national titles going back.

43:10Elgan Alderman: But in Bordeaux, I mean, it's just been what a successful merger it's been over the past 20 years, because that city is now all about rugby. You've got the southern suburb of Berg mixed with the Stade Bordelais side in the north. the Stade Chabon del Mar, I was reading that piece in the Sunday Times about Italian football that John Foote wrote about these crumbling stadiums. I was walking around the Stade Chabon del Mar, I was thinking, this kind of looks like a crumbling Italian football stadium, but it just feels proper old school, proper amphitheatrical as it is, in the old school manner it is.

43:42Elgan Alderman: They get 32 ,000 basically every week, and then for the odd big game, they'll move up to the football ground, the Mamou Atlantique, where they can get 42 ,000. So just the passion within those cities, the support for them the players they have the way they play it's just as good as anything european rugby has seen ever is there any part of it a shame that it is a quarterfinal and not a final or is it to lose messed up the pool stage that's your seeding and it's such a mouth-watering

44:11Alex Lowe: quarterfinal that who cares well yeah it is a shame but i'm you know i think we were going to see them play at some point and in some ways it does open up other really nice narratives so So you've got the idea that, as I mentioned earlier, the two best in France will meet whoever wins between the two best in England. And on the other side of the draw, you mentioned it before we came on air, but that wanting to nick your stat. When was the last time there was a club from four different countries?

44:39Elgan Alderman: I believe it's only happened twice and the last time was 2002. So, yeah, we're looking at possibly Glasgow v Leinster on one side and, yeah, the best team in France against the best team in England on the other side.

44:49Alex Lowe: Yeah, so it feels like the obvious final because they are pretty much the two best teams in Europe. But actually having it this early does open a narrative where we could have Glasgow and Leinster through. You could have Bath or Northampton there as well. It makes it feel like a proper European competition. And as Mark said as well, Glasgow would have something to say about it, given what happened in the pool stages in terms of who are to lose in that conversation. Yeah, mind you, Saracens beat Toulouse as well. Yeah, that's true.

45:17Elgan Alderman: the Glasgow one will be fascinating because you know with how close teams like Ternethi, Scarletts, Cardiff have come in Wales such gutting semi-finals they're actually in a very Welsh way a very wistful reminiscence of ah we all came so close to winning Europe it happened quite a few times those clubs but for Scotland they've only got Edinburgh's near miss of 2012 when they lost to Ulster by three points in the semi-finals they'd beaten Toulouse in the quarter-finals so Scotland perhaps doesn't have that long list of wistful near misses that Wales has in this competition so now suddenly you've got Glasgow as the great hope and yeah second seeds maximum points in the pool stage it would be you know some shock if they did go all the way but they put themselves in a position where it's not beyond the realms of possibility and in Bath Northampton a possible precursor to the Prem final at the end of the season I would have thought so yeah

46:08Alex Lowe: it's quite intriguing that isn't it yeah well just to think back to December when Northampton sent a sort of mid second string to to the record and won one of the great performances of the season Bath have got such such quality such depth I'll ask Fergus Burke about it because they've obviously Savings have played Saints and Bath on back-to-back weekends and they just see Bath as being just the physicality that they can bring with the pack they have and then the six on the bench which in that includes Thomas Dutoy coming on and Francois Van Vek who came on and made a huge difference on the other side of the scrum.

46:46Alex Lowe: That physicality gives a platform for Ben Spencer, Finn Russell, Max Ajomo and Oli Lawrence who dovetail so effectively in midfield. They are a force but if there's a team who can work out how to beat them, it would be Northampton because they did it in December.

47:05Elgan Alderman: What's great about these potential games is that it tees up revenge narratives for later on in the season because when Bordeaux, frankly, wiped the floor with Toulouse in last season's semi-final, they were still hurting about the 59-3 top 14 final defeat. And they still haven't beaten Toulouse in that top 14 final because we had the ridiculous final last season that went to extra time and finished 39-33. So even though they've done a job on them in Europe, there are still passions and desires and things that people want to get revenge for. And it's possible that we might have a similar Bath-Northampton storyline later this season as well.

47:42To finish us off then on the quarterfinal, something we asked last week ahead of the last 16 was EPCR would be praying for an away win. And they got it in sale against Quinns, but I don't view that as a big shock, European knockout surprise, really. So if we look at the matches this weekend, Bath-Northampton, Glasgow-Toulon, Leinster-Sale, Bordeaux-Toulouse. what is the most likely shock if one is going to come from any of those matches i think it's

48:11Elgan Alderman: northampton and bath because i think there's just something about northampton in europe in recent seasons yeah they've been a really good just european team um obviously to lose bordeaux i mean it's you know it's really 50 50 about who could win the fact it's in bordeaux tilts it in their direction but it wouldn't really be a shock either way because they're both so so mammoth whereas yeah if Northampton were to win at the wreck that would simultaneously be a shock but also something that wouldn't be unlike them to do it yeah because as I said they won down there

48:41Alex Lowe: so so well after the Autumn Internationals I wonder how much Glasgow would like Storm David to keep blowing through the city for a few more days just to make it as inhospitable as possible for for Toulon as off as often as Lentz to seem to be compared to their normal standards I don't I don't see them tripping up. So, yeah, it would be Northampton in Bath. Four really good matches, though. We'll look back on them all on next Monday's pod. To finish off, lads, women's Six Nations gets underway this coming weekend. France, Italy, England, Ireland, which is happening at Allianz Stadium, Twickenham and Wales against Scotland.

49:18Elgin, England aiming for an eighth Six Nations title in a row.

49:23Elgan Alderman: Yes, well, obviously, well, we go back, what, seven months now to that great day at Twickenham. where almost 82 ,000 people watched the Red Roses finally become world champions. Everything, a lot of what we thought would happen since then, entering the sporting firm and TV appearances, book deals, those things have happened. But now they're getting back to the nuts and bolts back at Twickenham, more than 70 ,000 tickets sold as it stands. In another way, it's the same old story because it's, can anyone stop at English Grand Slam? And you'd probably think no, although there is a likely usual decider perhaps against France in France on the final weekend but they've won 33 games in a row and Zoe Stratford who will be absent as captain Meg Jones taking over because Zoe Stratford is taking time out one of three players taking time out with pregnancy at the moment she said in an interview with me at the start of the year why don't we go another World Cup cycle without losing so that would be maybe 66 games without losing but is so is that That's the fascinating question, I think, for this team now, in that they had this not getting over the line at a World Cup for such a long time, plus coupled with a home World Cup, which we always knew was going to be mega, this team that wasn't losing.

50:33They won that home World Cup. What becomes the motivation now? But by the sounds of it, the noises coming out of the Red Roses camp is, well, let's do it all over again. And John Mitchell has spoken about wanting to be the greatest sports team ever, all that sort of thing.

50:44Elgan Alderman: Yeah, for now, the motivation is that first British and Irish Lions women's tour as well next year, which, although the fixture list isn't as grand as the men's one, it is something that the women's game is greatly looking forward to, and certainly a lot of players want to be a part of that. It's obviously defending the World Cup title in 2029 in Australia. There actually won't be a huge amount of regeneration for the Red Roses, because a lot of the players are of an age where they'll just still be here in 2029. Then, obviously, this is a long way down the line, But it's interesting to see what happens in the generation after that, because actually there are some question marks over what's coming next after this generation of Red Roses.

51:21Elgan Alderman: Actually, England under 18 lost to Wales in the under 18 festival last weekend. But that is a long way down the line in the here and now. I don't think it would be a massively bold prediction to say that they might win 66 games in a row, which would almost get to a level where it would be one defeat in about 100 matches because they'd won 30 in a row prior to the World Cup to final defeat as well.

51:43Alex Lowe: We're also at the stage with the Red Roses. It's mad that it's their first game in seven months since winning the World Cup. But to get 70 ,000 after all that time into Twickenham, with everyone knowing how dominant they are, the support for the Red Roses isn't contingent on jeopardy and on the level of competition. it's a very different style of backing for that team than the England men's team have that as you say, Eli Kildan on posters and on the Tannoy at Heathrow Airport and book deals and they're buying into the characters and the people of this team rather than turning up wanting to see Humdinger of a test match.

52:22Elgan Alderman: It's watching a TV show or a play where you know how it ends by and large a lot of the time. Obviously so much of it is incumbent on the other nations now to be dragged up by what the Reds which again is something we've been talking about for several years but if you're looking like I say some green shoots with young Welsh players coming through there's going to be a really good crowd at Ashton Gate by all accounts for the England Wales game also you now got Scotland playing at Murrayfield for the first time for what will be a record crowd there in the second round so there are still improvements from the other teams that aren't the Red Roses it's just that every time they improve slightly the Red Roses actually have improved by even more.

52:56So where are we if England are still far and away the favourites and we expect them to do the Grand Slam where are we with everyone else? France still the closest team to them and then where in terms of Italy, Ireland, Wales, Scotland do those teams sit?

53:08Elgan Alderman: Well as Alex says because it's been seven months since the game we don't have any real international form to go off, we can only go off what it's been like for the last five years where France give a good account of themselves but fall just short Wales, Scotland and Ireland oscillate and can each beat each other, I shouldn't leave out Italy in that regard either, can all oscillate and beat anyone on their day so we're looking for any of those countries to to get some more surer some surer improvement to you know give France a good go give England a good go but everyone's expecting you know until we see some evidence on the field that we think it will just go the same way as usual.

53:47Alex Lowe: What's the WXV plan this year because the Six Nations takes on importance because historically the Six Nations has been the big annual men's championship but from a women's perspective the WXV is actually a better competition because it would pitch England against Canada and against New Zealand and yet that doesn't get largely because of there've been issues with scheduling and it's in different far-flung parts of the world but that is actually a better test for the Red Roses than the Six Nations is but doesn't get quite as much kudos or attention.

54:17Elgan Alderman: Yeah so the original WXV which was three tiers of six teams you played three games all in the same country against the teams that were in your tier. England won all of those games. It's changed now where teams are at liberty to organise their own games, which is viewed as the Red Roses being able to organise bumper clashes rather than face maybe New Zealand, maybe Canada. So there'll be six games as part of that for the Red Roses. They'll be taking on Canada more than once. So that'll be really interesting to see. They'll be taking on the Black Ferns at home. so there will be some really good exciting games later on this year.

54:55Elgan Alderman: It also means that Scotland can go to Australia as well as part of that for more than just a one-test series. So that will be a really interesting test to see those Canada match-ups again. I'm still pulling for the cross-codes clash between the Red Roses and the Gillaroos in Las Vegas, Australia Women's Rugby League and England Women's Rugby Union. But I don't think it will happen, but I'm still pulling for it. I've still put the oh absolutely yeah so France Italy England Ireland and Wales Scotland the matches in the women's Six Nations and Bath Northampton Glasgow Toulon Leinster Sale Bordeaux Toulouse in the Champions Cup quarterfinals Alex hopefully going to be on the road this coming weekend

55:39Alex Lowe: yeah yeah looking forward to well after this I'm going downstairs to the sports desk to explain to them just how important it is that I go to Bordeaux against Toulouse on Sunday Yeah, well, after hearing about the prawns from 11am and the car park outside the stadium, I don't blame you. Although, of course... Maybe I'll go on Saturday and stay the night.

55:58Elgan Alderman: Elgham, you'll be at Allianz, Twickenham, I guess. Yes, I'll be at Twickenham on Saturday for that opening Women's Six Nations game and then following the Red Roses up to Murrayfield and then Ashton Gate and Parma and Bordeaux for the rest of the Championship. Good stuff. Lots coming up over the next few weeks on the pod. Thank you very much for listening. If you want to send us an email, The email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. You can also watch the show on YouTube. Head over to the Times Sport YouTube page where you can actually see us, which you may not want to do. You might want to stick to your pods.

56:27But thank you very much for listening. We'll be back with you next Monday. Before you go, we just want to shine a light on the great work Allianz is doing behind the scenes to support the game we all love. We talk a lot on the Ruck about premiership stars and England internationals, but every one of those journeys starts somewhere, usually on a freezing morning at a local club with volunteers hand-me-down kit and a belief that rugby can genuinely change lives Allianz gets how important those places are which is why they're launching a special edition of the Allianz Future Fund just for Ruck listeners they're offering grants of£500 to£1 ,000 to help local clubs become more inclusive more sustainable and better set up for the next generation.

57:11Whether it's new kit, safer facilities, or giving young players the space to grow into tomorrow's heroes, this is a real chance to make a difference. Sign up for the Allianz Future Fund, nominate your club, and help support the grassroots heart of the game. Refresh your room, upgrade your comfort, and spring into savings at Darvin's two-day spring sale. Hi, I'm Will Harris for Darvin Furniture. Friday and Saturday only, save 45 % to 65 % store-wide. Plus, we'll make your refresh a breeze. With 0 % APR for 48 months on qualifying purchases. A whole new season, a whole new space. The two-day sale, Friday and Saturday only at Darvin.

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