Are unbeaten England now South Africa's closest rivals?

0:14Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Monday morning we're in studio and a mad old weekend of rugby to look back on. I'm Alfie Reynolds. To my right as I go round the table, Alex Lowe. How are you? Hello, good morning. Yeah, very well. Had a trip to Dublin, trip to Twickenham. No, it was good. It was good. Stuart Barnes as well is back with us. Barnesy? Yeah, pleased to be back. A fascinating weekend. And England made it four, but it wasn't the greatest of games. No, we'll get into that. We'll get into the fallout from it as well, with Felipe Contoponi deciding to tee off in his post-match press conference.

0:48Alfie: We'll come on to the Argentina reaction. And also back once again, Will Kelleher. Hello. Yeah, good. Oh, some of our autumns are over. There's still games to be played, though. It is the end of November, except for Wales and South Africa, which I said on our Friday preview, it was. I said the last weekend of November we're looking ahead to, except if you're Wales or South Africa, so I thought I wouldn't say it again. But yeah, there is still one game to go, but it feels like the end of the international rugby year, really, doesn't it? It does, yeah. That's not really an international. The Bucs reckon they've got 25 players left once they've sent all the players back to the various clubs that have to go back.

1:23Wales can only feel half of their first team, because they've all got to go back. and apparently only 30 ,000 tickets have been sold, which is no surprise for a non-game.

1:32Alfie: Yeah, well, there might be some green shoots for Wales when we get onto them later and we chat about that game against New Zealand. Funny old one, that one. We'll get onto that because with the greatest respect to Wales, they weren't the story of the weekend. You could argue it's England when you look at the back page of the Times this morning, but I think in terms of the rugby, in terms of the match, in terms of the utter chaos, Alex, where you were at on Saturday, Dublin, Ireland, South Africa, Andy Farrell described it as a he'd never seen a game like it have you seen a game like that no I haven't and in loads of ways five cards one one red four yellows all of which I think were justified but a game that lasted over two hours 20 scrums but also what was so fascinating and compelling for me a lot of people didn't enjoy it David Walsh didn't enjoy it I was engrossed in it and actually I think I think the Viva Stadium crowd were because it got to a point where every defensive scrum was being they were Ireland were being roared on by their their home fans which you know which doesn't usually happen for for scrums but then so the compelling thing about it was South Africa's mentality in this game they they displayed their they're all caught brilliance to score the first to create the first try just a wonderful try brilliant finish from Damien they were but the power that they brought to the game later actually laid the foundations for James Ryan almost panicky flying in he got his red card because Ireland had been in that same position 10 minutes earlier had been turned over by Thomas Dutoy and I think a sense of panic that they were losing that breakdown.

2:57Ryan flies in. That goes from being 7-all to Ireland being down to 14 men and then it was 13 and then it was 12 because South Africa's focus became about making a statement in the scrum. Now we all know how good the box scrum is but this was a game where they almost decided to spurn points in order to make a point about their scrum. They could have won that game by a lot more But if you think just before halftime, Andrew Porter's on a warning, and so Razzie Rasmus hooks off his starting props and brings on two fresh props to scrum Porter into the bin and then to scrum Ireland backwards for a penalty try.

3:34Then you're around the hour mark. They're on Ireland's 22, and they just call scrum after scrum after scrum. That, on the scoreboard, kept Ireland in the game. In terms of actually being on that field, playing that game, Ireland were out of it. Ireland had nothing in their legs. They had players off the field injured. They'd played so long shorthanded that the forwards were spent. The backs were all disorganised. So although Ireland had the ball at the end, they had no shape, no structure, no accuracy. They couldn't play with clear heads because their minds had become fogged with fatigue. And so South Africa had decided they were going to win this game, not comprehensively on the scoreboard, but by just grinding Ireland into their own dirt.

4:19And that mindset, I've just never seen that kind of attitude before in a game.

4:23Alfie: What it reminded me of a little bit was the World Cup quarterfinal with Damien Willemser calling the mark, calling the scrum and just that flex. And it was that almost on steroids. And I've got to wonder of what the impact of the game will be on Ireland long term because the psychological scars, I know the noise afterwards from Andy Farrell and the players was so proud of how they fought under testing circumstance with losing players, but they were mullered. and they did show great spirit and they did defend bravely definitely around that time it could have been worse and they lost James Ryan so they lost some ballast about the arm mark they lost Ryan Baird suspected fractured leg they were in chaos at times there were I thought Paddy McCarthy came on and did a really impressive job for such a young prop Kieran Prendergast gave everything when he came on but they were on the they were on the back foot for most of that game territorially pressure physicality and they didn't crumble.

5:20And I think that is impressive. They didn't crumble. They fought as hard as they could, but they were out of the game physically because of the power that South Africa brought. And it was a flex. It was a flex. And it felt, although Razzie does this thing of going, it's not about me, it's not personal, but it felt like South Africa went into that game feeling like it was personal. And we know how good they are at building up a game and a narrative around a game. They hadn't won at the Aviva Stadium since 2012. Razzi had never won there as a coach. He won there at the old Lansdowne Road as a player, but never as a coach with Munster or South Africa.

5:55So they had built up this whole narrative around that team, and they went in there with a point to prove. At the end of the year, like a dominant year, you think that they fly home. Oh, I suppose they fly home after the Wales game. In a year where they have put record points on New Zealand away. They've beaten France, the Six Nations champions with 14 men, and now they have ground Ireland into dust. That is a statement of intent. And then afterwards Razzie goes, and next year is going to be about becoming more creative and driving the team forward. This year was consolidating us in the top four in the world.

6:31Everything about it was a message to the world, I think. I think sometimes Razzie gets too much credit for his genius. Things like telling everyone on Twitter what the team's going to be for the opposition when it's already been in the newspapers for a few days, things like that. But there felt there to be a three-part plan around the scrum. So the one is in-game, it just saps the legs so that at the end of the game, having had 20 scrums, you're done. Two, it made sense that it was a point to prove to the game about Ireland's poor scrummaging, to say we are so dominant here that even our substitutes are coming on and smashing into pieces, getting them yellow carded look at the destruction we're causing here so now next time they play each other referees go oh do you remember last time they all talk about pictures don't they in positive and negative pictures there's some absolutely like harrowing pictures now in the heads of referees and then that leads you on to part three which is some of those island players have had a dreadful day up front and that's quite difficult to recover from they've lost the man test haven't they basically and lots of people over many years have had some issues with andrew port of scummaging and that was like brutally brutally exposed and i you can see that being a plan can't you the three part the trident plan yeah yeah definitely and it was just one of those days that that just worked perfectly for south africa that they were able to show what they could i thought sasha feinberg and gonzulu had a relatively quiet game we got all by his standards But then once they'd scored against 15 early on, for which he was involved, but Peter Steff actually had a bigger role by winning the line out, and then he's the guy who supplies the last pass.

8:14I mean, what a player he is. It ended up not really being a game for the backs at all. No, no. Dare I say, we in the media are occasionally prone to the cliche, and we love to use the word siege in rugby. And it was a siege, and it was laid by the pack. and the other thing was where it was so much of that game was played between the try line of the five meters and so many people said to me oh that's ridiculous all those cards for Ireland but it's not and and I would say on that point I thought Matthew Carley distinguished himself there was a lot of booing a lot of heckling and those penalties were coming and the cards were coming because of repeated infringements and so often we get the three four times and it's like next time I'm going to do it.

9:03Carly has always trusted he's always backed his own judgement and he was right again and again and again and when South Africa had a little bit of pressure on them at the end, he went there so someone said, too many yellow cards you can't play test match rugby when you've got 11, it's like football if 50, 100 years ago we'd have started saying, when you hold someone for a corner, you give a penalty and people, what do they say? They said, yeah but then you'll have 5 penalties a game, that's what you should have, to make sure that you don't get people coming I mean, offside, five metres out. What's the net result?

9:35What's the end product? You get tries instead of penalties. That's what we want. I thought Matthew Carley, along with the South African scrum, was outstanding. He was my man of the match. There's one that I want us to talk about, though, because I think he got, or they got, the refereeing team, the Sasha Feinberg and Gonzalo one, wrong. To me, that's at least a yellow card, if not a 20-minute red. No. My view lies... 20 minute red was that he came in as a finishing shot with a cocked shoulder he didn't, he didn't, sorry he was looking to finish him off he didn't, he came in his body posture was higher but he didn't want to get the left shoulder in the way he wanted to use his body and it wasn't a shot he got the timing wrong quite clearly you look at the body angle he wanted the player to just go over him and out to touch and on that Will I think We can look at that, and there was, I think, Harry Wilson in the Australia-France game.

10:35There was a head-on-head there. You can look at that. I'm not so concerned on those incidents. I want TMOs to be decisive and make decisions, but what I'm concerned about is the management of the game, and this was a weekend when I thought the management of Carly was excellent. I thought a few other games, it was not so good. We got Tempo, as he's known, in Cardiff, which just brought the game to a halt. And I think what we've got to look at is how games are being managed by the officials. And that is, I think it's a crucial error. I disagree with you, but I don't think it's as important as Carly getting right those decisions.

11:15Or the other ones, yeah. That sort of waterfall of penalties. I do, I think, I know where Will's coming from because I think in every other week of the autumn, he does get a card of some description for that challenge. Now, I don't think it should be a card. I think that there was also a penalty given against Tommy O 'Brien under his own posts, where I felt that the penalty went the wrong way. That would have been ludicrous to have carded O 'Brien for that. I think there's... So passive. Yeah. I think the game's got to a point where we don't need cards to be changing behaviours. I don't think players...

11:50I think it's obvious if a player is coming in recklessly. I thought James Ryan... With intent. with intelligence James Ryan was the right decision because there's a guy who it's a hot-headed decision brought about by pressure and physicality that he realises South Africa sort of earned that in a way because he's under pressure and he feels he's got to do something and it was a hot-headed decision it was the right call I felt that both the one against Sasha and the one against Tommy O 'Brien were the right decision not to be shown cards now But two questions, guys, you'll be fascinated to know your thoughts on.

12:28One is, which we have discussed before, I said that penalty went against Tommy O 'Brien. If anything, it went the wrong way. I think it was a real issue that World Rugby load everything onto the defender. And the Tyke Byrne one in Chicago, that ended up being a red, which is nonsense. Tommy O 'Brien conceded a penalty when he is passive in a collision that's being controlled and dominated by the ball carrier. So why is all the onus playing? Who himself is running high. Who's running high and was very close to leading with a forearm. Yeah. Certainly raises his forearm into the collision. Now, I don't necessarily think that was a penalty, but it was close to being one.

13:09But my point is, how can they load everything onto the defender when the attacker is always 50 % of any collision, and in this one was probably 80 % in control of what happened? And it's not about, some people have said, well, they deliberately go low. They don't. But the body angle, when you're a ball carrier, you get low. If you look at someone like Jasper Visa, he's not a tall man, but he's going to arch and he's going to dip because he's exploding into the tackle. Rugby is physical. And that word explosion is very important. We talk about defenders winning the collisions. Attackers want to win the collisions.

13:50That's vital. When France got back into the game against Australia, what they were doing well was going two metres in every tackle. So that's crucial. And that does mean that ball carriers will put themselves in that situation. And I think you're absolutely right. But World Rugby has basically said, if you're carrying the ball, you're innocent. That's wrong. So that's a big problem. The other one is they cannot differentiate, they cannot understand the difference between the accidental and the intentional. And I really, you know, I don't care if it's head on head. I saw Harry Wilson. He did not mean to clobber the Frenchman.

14:31He was clumsy. But he gets away with it. And that's why I said Luke Pierce, I would say he was outstanding because he looked at that and he went accidental. Now, that could have been a red card going to the letter of the law. He didn't even think about that. He didn't go to the TMO. He saw the body position. He saw what he was trying to do. He saw that it was a mistake. You cannot have a sport where the punishment for an accidental error is the same as it is for an intentional error. That is anarchy. That is chaos. That is world rugby being inept. What I would say, I'm obviously not saying that every ball carrier has to be penalised for a contact, The way that the balance is at the moment is that there's no responsibility on the ball carrier.

15:16So if you wanted to spear in headfirst onto the shoulder of a defender, you're buying yourself a penalty. All I'm saying is that the balance of responsibility needs to be eased in those situations on the defender to the point where maybe it's not a penalty at all. The other question, and your point about cards, is Ireland had two players, two props binned because they couldn't cope with South Africa's scrum. I think there's an interesting debate to be had about whether just not being as good as your opponent deserves a yellow card. Now, I think it deserves penalties. The penalty try was absolutely legitimate.

15:54But the penalty try didn't come with a yellow card, which is interesting. The scrum is such a unique thing. if you're just not as good as your opponent or strong not strong not strong Ireland had no answers to the box scrum should you be penalized should you be yellow carded for just not being as good as your opponent or as strong as your opponent I suppose it's an interesting one to use a different analogy in a different part of the field you look at Jared Evans trying to tackle Seve Rees and he was just not good enough to tackle him but you're not giving him a yellow card you're just saying oh you just made a mistake and conceded to try I thought I would have given him a yellow card that was a terrible attempt From being three and a half millimetres away from him and ended up about two feet when he did it.

16:34He was brilliant. He was brilliant from Rhys. I guess to, you know, I'm just asking a question, but if you're a defending prop and you're collapsing, you're being cynical, you're preventing the opposition from driving you back and scoring a try, then... Or you chuck the scum on the ground by falling in. Yeah, then you are deliberately, if you're deliberately bailing out, then I guess you do deserve to get that. If you're South African, you've got five or six prop forwards who could play for your country who are outstanding technically. Most countries in the world don't have that, and what you say is absolutely right.

17:07You know, to yellow card your best prop and then to bring on your next best prop means that the destabilisation is even more intense. You're not going to solve that problem, are you? Now, we all love a scrum. We're all old-fashioned. We don't want the game to go without scrums, but you can't have 80 minutes of collapsed scrums because one team have got... you're going to end up with having to have three loose head props on the bench because they're all going to be off the pitch. You can't do that. I found that game unique and compelling because it was so extraordinary. You don't want every game to be like that.

17:39So I accept that David Walsh didn't enjoy it. I found it fascinating. But if every game was like that, I think the game was... What did David not enjoy about? Too long, too many stoppages, not enough ball in play. Game was over two hours. Too many resets, too many scrums. he felt if he spent 160 euros for a ticket he'd have felt short change now the funny thing is the wales new zealand game when referees were stopping the match for one-off decisions as opposed to this avalanche of pressure that that was the game in cardiff i felt this is going on

18:15Alfie: for eternity and it killed me well so on that point then because it's been a big talking point this weekend i think unfortunately it's been a big talking point every single weekend through November is the officiating and it's not about picking out individual TMOs or particular referees why not what is well we can if we want but they call they call I mean Holly Davidson goes upstairs and she says tempo never has there been a worse nickname for someone because there is no tempo when that man is there well I would agree I would agree with you on that but the point I was trying to make is that the it's been a huge talking point and I think the waters have been muddied through November between what's a yellow card, what's a 20-minute red, what's a full red, when the bunker and when the TMO should get involved and when they shouldn't.

19:04Alfie: And there seems to be confusion out there. So off the back of this November, and I suppose at the end of a calendar year, what do we need and what do World Rugby need to do to improve this? Because it is so confusing. It has to be. Well, I know you want to get in there. The very briefly, I'll say, it has to be simplified. We make a living out of writing about watching and following rugby and there are times when you think, what's that one for? What's that decision? And there comes a stage when you go, oh, sod it. And if you're trying to attract new people to the game, you can't have the, oh, sod it, new generation.

19:36Generation, sod it. It's going on forever. Ironically, World Rugby did make it simple. 2019 World Cup, they just had a three-step checklist. Everybody in the stadium knew what was going to happen with any situation. And then they started listening to coaches. and so they diluted it a bit to the point where this autumn no one can predict whether it be a penalty a yellow or a 20 minute red or even a red it's there needs to be clarification and then even

20:02Alfie: when they have we have had three red cards that have been then overturned which is an absolute mess that's awful a diamond isn't it well look there's there's so much to say to this and there's a wider point at the end of this i suppose but i agree with all of you that it did feel like we knew what we were getting so when the bunker came in we were told there's going to be no permanent red cards it's largely always going to be a yellow sent up to the bunker so we can get on with the game to start with so we're not having to watch a screen for five minutes so that's now gone because we now get referees looking at a screen for two minutes three minutes four minutes then sending it to the bunker who then has a go they make a different decision they upgrade it let's say and then the disciplinary panel on the tuesday disagree with everything and rescind it and you go okay the more the more crowds of people we're involving in this process and the more different decisions they're making the more confused we're all getting so then there's the other thing of we thought we knew what the permanent red card was exclusively there for the gratuitous horrendous act of foul play then there was this sort of like unfortunate mistake band which was the 20 minute red card then we all knew what a yellow was and now all of those boundaries have been grayed haven't they where we don't really know the permanent and the 20 minute sits because of tig burn which then got rescinded for example like and we don't know what's going on i think then the white so there's that there's an education piece here like world rugby and other organizations think that they've told people what the bandings are but they haven't they just haven't and if they have they've done it when no one's listening they if they do it during the start of a season or prem rugby cup or something like that that's not good enough like millions more people are watching the games now through the autumn and through the six nations rugby championship whatever you've got to keep re-explaining and re-educating your fans and like we'll talk more about this but i think this is where referees and i've spoken to some over the weekend are frustrated because they know they're very clear on what their guidelines are and they don't think anyone else understands what they're working towards and so the lack of education of us and the wider public is a massive issue because then you get the social media bin fire because everyone can easily clip up the controversial high tackle that they've seen and go, there you go, conspiracy da da da.

22:17I think your point is that the guidelines often change for what the referees are being asked to do, but those guidelines are never communicated. Or if they are, they might be shared with some broadcasters, but not the wider public and journalists. Things will change before the Six Nations and therefore whatever those changes are, and maybe it's the Matt Carley test of actually this is the level that we want to be at because I think, as you say, Barnsley, I feel like he got it right. That needs to be communicated because otherwise we all go into the Six Nations having tried to work out what happened in November and then we judge what happens in the Six Nations based on what happened in November.

22:52And then it's all changed and you go, oh, it's all different now. Can you imagine, we've just had the Euros in football and one year later there's a World Cup and there's a whole new set of rules. Every sports fan, every football writer, every person in the world would say, you're joking, that's ridiculous. Rugby doesn't do it every now and again, does it? It's an ongoing churn of subtle changes and subtle changes leave everybody in the dark. You used the word a grey zone. Rugby lives in a grey zone. There's much about the play of the game that is improving but the officiating, it's a mess, we're lost.

23:35I felt in the All Blacks game that Andrea Piardi look weak. I didn't feel he was the main official running that game. He was the man in the middle. But he's a really good referee and you know when he started losing it a bit? When he started getting the big games and the TMOs work with him and he's backing off. Now, what I spoke to someone over the weekend who said, but that's what they want at the moment because they're getting they feel pressure as an officiating group to be accurate to get everything right that the TMO has licence to come in because they want to get all the decisions right now there's a balance in the game between being right and flow to the game as we discussed earlier but i i would fear for someone like piardi who in that game if it become a fractious game and if the players start feeling like the man in the middle isn't actually in control then it has a knock-on effect so that counted against piardi in my in my view of him and then i discovered actually that's what the officials are all talking about it's what they want then you get the tmo coming in for something that happened there's five minutes in that game discussing whether Ben Earl had knocked it on.

24:38It was obvious to everyone after one minute he hadn't knocked it on. Then they go back for an offside. So this whole debate about the knock-on is irrelevant because the TMO's coming in. Well, actually, lads, there was a knock-on at the line-out, an offside at the line-out. So they need to get clarity in all these things so everyone understands where they start. So I think one of the massive points here, so we talked about the lack of communication, is a lack of support for referees publicly as well. Yeah. So, again, as we all have, I've spoken to some referees over the weekend and I think lots of them would just prefer to have the decisions on them.

25:09Let it be my decision. What, rather than the bunker, you mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And have this kind of faceless VAR style guy who's sending people off from a shed. And then, oh, by the way, in two days' time, someone's changed their mind as well. What about assistants from the TMO for the Cody Taylor? Yes. Clear and obvious. Or the Jack Rowley. TMOs, when they were invented, early days of the century, they were meant to come in clearly... you talked about television gets a briefing. I was working for Sky then, and I was briefed, and they said it is only for clear and obvious, and it made sense for a while.

25:46And at a certain stage, it became for anything, and you don't need that. And fans, you know, they'll go online, they'll watch it. Online, they'll say, oh, look, there's the knock-on, and you can see it. It doesn't matter if infinitesimally small knock-on occurs five phases before a try. It's life. It's error-ridden. That's how it is. You don't want people to do that. You can't govern a game based on what a small percentage of mad people on Twitter say. Yeah, yeah. But sometimes it feels like we're sort of reacting to that. But this is the... I think this is the number of the issue now, is that the coaches in rugby are way too powerful.

26:26They have no one, no one scrutinising their behaviour with the referees and their public denouncements of referees. And this is not exclusive to South Africa at all, but they are one of the major players in this. And again, I spoke to a referee over the weekend, and they said they have their meetings with referees and the coaches every week. And the person was saying to me, those need to be so much further monitored because it's outrageous the amount of clips and information that are piled on referees on a Thursday before a test match. they want it to be limited in the amount of clips that can be shown and there are some coaches like Razzy Rasmus who are famous for going through last week's game with a fine tooth comb and the referee's looking at that going I'm meant to be looking at flow and show i.e.

27:18the spectacle and if I were to officiate like you want me to throughout all those clips we'd be blowing the whistle every five seconds is that what we want but all coaches want to do is win the game and for their team to be right. Surely, it's a very easy thing to do, just to say, there cannot be any liaison on the week of the game between a coach and the referee.

27:42Alfie: Well, I was just thinking, what's the point in those meetings? Like, if they have got so unparalleled... It's to clarify, but it's not... Might as well get rid of them. It's not clarification anymore, it's propaganda. Totally. And then you get Zwandile Stick on a Tuesday in Dublin saying, like oh poor us we're getting hounded by referees and stuff like that here's another load of pressure there goes Razzy Rasmus's like online mob and they're going to enjoy that as well. Andy Farrell said that he raised that in his meeting with Matt Carley on Thursday to say South Africa are claiming they get unfair treatment I hope that doesn't influence how you referee the game and then afterwards Andy Farrell's like well I'll leave you to decide whether it did having said in a separate answer that he felt that Sasha should have been yellow carded.

28:24And again Ben, the referee I spoke to just said most coaches now in the world game are totally out of line with the way that they approach referees off the record and on the record. And look, we can't be hypocritical here because we want coaches in public to us as journalists to tell us what they think. Our back page page here is because a coach had an issue with the refereeing decision. So we can't be hypocritical on that. but I feel like World Rugby needs to grow some balls and start punishing coaches who are actively trying to pressurise referees with this propaganda that you're talking about because at the moment referees are totally thrown to the walls totally thrown to the bin fire of social media and asked to then come back and do it again happily and then everyone should be fine with their decision it's insane the amount of pressure that we're putting on these referees and hypocritical of the coaches because they would never expect the level of perfection of themselves or their team that they're asking from the refs.

29:24There's also, I was just thinking about this, there was a story written, actually it was written by Tim Percival, who's the England communications guy, about how when the New York Yankees went to recruit a head coach, they did it on Zoom, I think because it was during COVID, but baseball journalists were allowed to sit in on the job interview. So I'm thinking, what if those meetings were open? Public forum. They wind it back a bit, wouldn't they? And then that got me thinking of things like the Fox. Remember that game Italy played at Twickenham against England, which they outlawed it now, but the no-ruck rugby, so that there was therefore no off-sideline.

29:59And they briefed the referee that they were going to do that. They said to the referee beforehand, we're going to do that. We want you to be aware this is what we're going to do. The referee is then in a position where he can't share that with the opposition. And so then he's in the middle of the game. James Haskell's losing his mind, going, what on earth is going on? And the ref goes, I'm not your coach. Yeah. you know all these games are being played and the refs I don't know it's a great moment wasn't it I'm not here to coach you yeah that's right I do think let's open it all up why don't we go sit in those meetings so this is not specific to him but Joel Zute is the head of referees at World Rugby where is he?

30:32where has he ever been to support his own referees in public like there are so many referees now who just feel like they're absolute lambs to the slaughter over these weekends and there's nothing that World Rugby can do to support them and they'll say hey, oh, we've put in social media safeguarding and things like that so they don't see the horrible tweets. And you're like, is that it? Is that really the whole sum of your protection for these referees? And again, last comment is this referee I was talking to was worried about what's going to happen at the next World Cup and he said it could just be absolute slaughter.

31:04Alfie: It was bad at 23, I thought. But the genie's out of the bottle with all this. And it doesn't seem like World Rugby have got any power now because they've never acted over all these things. And even when they have done Razzie's video and all that sort of stuff, he's made into a martyr. And so it gets worse. So I kind of don't know what they do, but I would love there to be some power from the top of the game to just say, this is enough. Coaches behave. Start banning them. Start monitoring their press conference behaviour. And start monitoring their refereeing meetings. It's difficult though, isn't it?

31:37Alfie: Because it's kind of like with the beginning of the autumn, the head of England, Australia, where it got out into the press that England were concerned about something. This is not exclusive to the box. But it's harder to penalise England for something that they haven't officially done when everyone kind of knows what they have done. But I agree. I think World Rugby need to stick up for the refs more and I think we need a simplified process so that we just have more clarity and understanding. It gets so frustrating. Communication is everything, isn't it? We don't need more boring press conferences.

32:03Do we, well?

32:04Alfie: What do you mean where people go, I'm not going to talk about that decision? Yeah, but that's why I said we can't be hypocritical because look at our back page today. Well, it was always going to take a fairly chunky section of the pod because it's been a huge story this November to bring it back to the box just to finish off on. They've clearly shown that they are the number one team in the world throughout the course of this year. What does the chasing pack look like in your mind? Who are the teams that you think are closest to them at this moment in time? Well, I mean, there's daylight between them and the rest, isn't there?

32:33And so, like, we're in today's paper going to be asked who is that same question in the chasing pack and it's sort of like everyone else basically isn't it and i think it's been lucky for england they haven't come across the box because it they they can now say look we've won this 11 in a row brilliant positive progress and they've not had the harrowing experience which they might have done and look they may have coped with some of it in better ways than ireland they've got some of the best kick chasers you'd think in the world at the moment england they got more depth as well up front They would have, I don't think they'd have crumbled as quickly.

33:06But I don't think you're looking, so if the game had gone in a similar way, I'm not sure you'd still, even though England's Scrum is much better, be that happy with England's front row. Like, they coped with it brilliantly in the semi-final with Mara and Cole, two absolute gnarled veterans of the game, and then it fell off with Genge and Sinclair, didn't it? And I think, and I've written about it, All the positives of England Scrum, Joe Hayes, Asher, Gane Stewart, all those guys, you're still like, there's no one anywhere close to the battery of props. World rankings would say New Zealand, but New Zealand, on their direction of travel this year, they're not utterly mobile.

33:46England are utterly mobile. France should have been able to beat them with 14 and didn't. but I would say France and England are teams who would be at the kind of vanguard of that chasing pack. I think undoubtedly England are on an upward curve. They are the closest thing there is in rugby to an imitation of the spring box. You know, in terms of how they've used the pom-bom squad, you know, quite clearly you see where the ideas are coming from. An imitation is a form of flattery and two years from now, well, before then, England have to find a way to beat South Africa. But at the moment, they're heading in the right direction and I think they've got the clearest mind as to where they want to go.

34:33New Zealand have brilliant rugby players. They don't have structure and Scott Robertson still looks slightly haunted. As for France, you know, we've been talking about, there's been this Gregor Townsend talk about, he's had eight years at Scotland, is that long enough? someone said to me and I think I saw it online as well is Fabian Galti getting as much from the players as he deserves and I turned that around because it's always the players get the stick and you can say are the players getting as much from Fabian Galti as they deserve they have brilliant players they have dynamic forwards Penno and BL Beary are bona fide geniuses yet they flashed fantastically in sporadic moments against Australia but they didn't look very good so yeah, I would say England probably, not a great team, they weren't very good against Argentina but the course they're on, the fact that you can see the road that they're travelling makes me think right now I would have England second, a long way behind South Africa but a little bit ahead of the others that's not to say they'll beat France or they'll beat Ireland.

35:49But, you know, if you had an international league, England would be my number two team because I think they're likely to keep winning game after game.

35:58Alfie: Well, it's been a hell of a year for England. A clean sweep in November. 11 wins in a row. A quick break and then we'll chat about them. So we were all at Twickenham yesterday for England's final game of the year. 27-23 win against Argentina. Nervy at the end, but they saw it out. I was thinking actually when you guys were podding outside the Aviva way back at the start of the Six Nations and it was another England defeat. Barney went viral. Oh yeah. Barney went viral. Exactly. Did you think at that point that you would possibly be sitting here at the end of the year and England from that point had gone win-win-win 11 in a row?

36:35But it's been a slow creep of it hasn't it because the win started as nippers didn't they? they turned the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 point defeats into wins the Scotland and the France and look, we said it at the time but that France one was madness really with the way that France bottled what, 3 try scoring chances at least? But England won the game and that was all we were asking for It's actually what they needed Yeah, they needed a bit of luck None of those balances had gone for them for so long It did go for them in that France game and from there on they had to beat Scotland then it was Italy And then Russell missed kicks that day as well and more luck going their way but they made it perhaps and then it was Italy they were good but never going to lose Wales are dreadful and put them away though and put them away in record fashion and then you're into a summer tour they were outstanding against Wales but they were brilliant and then the Argentina tour was really impressive I mean I know Argentina were missing some as well but England were without what 10, 12, 13 Lions and then they come back to the November and I think at the start of this series we would have said well we probably did say four from four would be perfect wouldn't it I think we sort of worried that it would be a two from four or a three from four and you start going, ah, they're sort of still in that kind of chasing pack, not quite there, but they're four from four.

37:49They've not won a four-test autumn series since 2016 when they're in the middle of that unbeaten run under Eddie. In the long term, the World Cup seems a one-off when England felt they weren't ready and they played robotic rubbish. It was awful. I'll never want to see a game from England's World Cup again. But from 24 onwards, they became a team who were more ambitious and they became good losers in the sense they played good rugby, but were losing. Then they became bad winners, not playing very well against Scotland, extremely lucky against France, but they got the win. So that's the path you want from being a good loser.

38:28You want to become a bad winner. Then you've got to merge and become a good winner. And as you say, with Argentina, Argentina was a real moment. And Cardiff, when Wales, OK, Wales are terrible, but England were more definitive against Wales and Cardiff than South Africa had been in the autumn before. And everyone just said, yeah, but Wales are rubbish. England's accuracy was immense. They were fantastic. They were world class that day, even though the opposition were risible. And Argentina was ideal for them. It took them on. And this last month, they didn't play very well against Argentina. They weren't great against Australia or Fiji.

39:10They weren't great against New Zealand. They played well against New Zealand. But they were in control and you could see the shape and you could see the balance to their game. and you could see this imitation South African team developing and getting stronger. And that's what South Africa's amazing thing is. They've won two World Cups, yet under Erasmus, his touch of genius is to win things and still get better and better and better. And that's what they have been doing. And England, on a much smaller scale, are in the process of doing that right now. Yesterday's game against Argentina was odd for me in that sense because I know they picked Ben Spencer at nine instead of Alex Mitchell.

39:51So you've picked him for his strength, which is control. But England's game plan was more narrow against Argentina than any other point. And I know their plan at the moment is built around crumbs. It's built around the kicking game and trying to feed off wherever the ball drops after that. But they were doing that against Argentina and it got to 17-3 on the back of it. But then Argentina started almost doing the same. And then one, they outdid England in their own game. I know Argentina do tend to kick a lot anyway, but it felt that in that second half, Argentina were winning the aerial battle.

40:26They were winning the breakdown battle. They were winning the penalty count and got themselves back in. And England didn't really know how to get out of that. And that was a problem. That was worrying because, you know, if you could say one thing about England, from Eddie Jones through to Steve Borthwick, the game plan is too rigid and i have thought in the last six months a couple of a couple of you know a couple of six nations when they were starting to have fluidity to their game plan flexibility and that's what i liked you know they weren't great again in the earlier games but they could do a bit of this and then if new zealand took them on somewhere they'd move somewhere else that second half i thought you you're stuck in that game plan that that was really odd

41:14Alfie: we should chat about Tom Curry we'll get on maybe to a bit more about England and particularly strength in depth and Max Ojomo yesterday was absolutely brilliant so the Tom Curry situation we're all sat there in the press conference and Felipe Contoponi and Argentina come in and start teeing off which we expected they might do because they had said similar in the TV interviews already but where they essentially have this massive issue with Tom Curry's late hit on Juan Cruz Malia towards the end of the game Malia had to go off with a suspected ACL injury. And then Felipe Contoponi, as is on the back of the Times, the newspaper we've got in front of us here, branded Tom Curry a bully for that.

41:52Alfie: There was also an altercation on the pitch, which we all saw. And then apparently it went on down the tunnel in which Contoponi says Curry shoved him and told him to F off. He called him a bully for how he supposedly behaved in the tunnel. What he did on the field was he was penalised for. What upset Kontopomi was he felt that the incident deserved a greater penalty, the yellow card, because of the injury that was caused. He said there are times in the game where decisions are made on outcome. There's an outcome here of my full-backs had to go off with an injury. We're down to 14 men, and yet it's only a penalty.

42:29That's what upset him. Then we saw on the field afterwards, Pumas went up to Tom Curry. there was a scuffle Henry Pollock piles in as Henry Pollock does Curry was fizzing as he left the field he looked angry and then the next thing we hear is that it's Contopomi saying Tom Curry has shoved me and sworn at me and is that the kind of behaviour we want in rugby that's the behaviour that he was describing as of a bully and he was also upset that he felt that in rugby whether you mean it or not if something you've done in the game has caused someone an injury, you should be showing some remorse and some concern for that injured player.

43:09So that's what they were angry about. Now, of course, we don't know. We weren't down the tunnel. We don't know where the controponium was in Tom Curry's face. Therefore, on the back of getting it on the field, he pushed him out of the way. England didn't really stand Tom Curry's defence on that. They circled the wagons, told their players to say they hadn't seen anything. The lawyer was in the room. Borthwick came out with a sort of Tom Curry's a great bloke defence and everyone you speak to who does know Tom Curry would accept that. What they didn't do was sort of interrogate the situation and come to his actual defence over the allegation.

43:46So it remains a one-sided allegation. No one's heard from Tom Curry because obviously England won't allow him to speak about it. Steve Borthwick didn't voice Tom Curry's defence on his behalf. So all that's left is what argentina say happened which is which is only one side of the story and the sort of latest on this and it's not a surprise really but argentina have asked for there to be an investigation into what happened in the tunnel and there will be cameras in there because there's cameras everywhere in a stadium like that so someone will end up seeing the footage we might not ever get to see it but

44:18Alfie: yeah i don't know it's i think argentina have gone very hard overboard with elements of this Well, you don't know that. Because if Tom Curry has... But with the late hit, I think they have. I don't think he should be getting a yellow card because someone hasn't really done their ACL. But that is an opinion you could hold. But that isn't really... The back page of the Times says they brand Curry a bully. That's not because of what he did on the field. That's because of what erupted afterwards. But people, as is the way, people are putting two and two together and they're coming at the wrong thing.

44:51So they'll say, oh yeah, look, bully Curry. They're reading our newspaper headline and they're linking it with the thing. As Alex has said several times on this podcast, the one has got nothing to do with the other. And now it was a penalty. It wasn't a yellow card, I don't think. I mean, I'm pretty old, but I remember, like, I was a fly half. And as you fly half, you get hit fractions late. And I think you said online, it was late, brackets, slightly. It doesn't really matter if it's slightly. It's still late, but it wasn't a venomous challenge. I agree. so I don't think it's a yellow I don't think Tom Curry would even know that he'd done any damage because he's running backwards because there's a line out five yards from England's line and they're under pressure so he's not thinking about that he doesn't know, he's got that out of his brain but you do think morally you do think if Malia is now out for six weeks and he can't play for Toulouse, he can't play rugby and Curry is playing for the next six.

45:54You do feel like I've got a bit of the Old Testament in me and there's an eye for an eye. And I do feel... That's a very agnostic man. Curry deliberately did what he did. I'm not saying it was venomous. I'm not saying there was intent. But an illegal act took out someone. And I think if a bloke's out for a month, six weeks...

46:12Alfie: It'd be like six months, won't it, if it's ACL? Well, if it was and Tom Curry just plays on, then I can see why Contemporary is saying there is no justice, not in the rugby field, but in the disciplinary field it was under in this world I I agree with you 100 % Barnsley so it was a deliberate act from Tom Curry because if he takes out the kicker the kicker can't chase and play everyone else onside so he's I mean all sevens do that 100 % he's knocking him down deliberately to stop him from being able to chase his own kick play the rest of his team onside therefore it is a penalty to bring us back on to England on the pitch Max Ajomo Barnsley you've been writing about him i mean it was a a twickenham or starting debut for the ages does he start for england come six nations well he's gone from fifth choice to being a real contender now and uh as i as i wrote for today's paper he's got a lot of things in his favor the fact that ollie lawrence i think is the number one pick at center for england the fact that he plays for bath with him really helps at the start of this season bath had three injuries at fly two injuries at fly half finn russell wasn't starting because of his Lions break.

47:22And Max Ajomo went in, and I was down watching his first, at the rack, watching his first two performances, and he was a revelation. He wasn't brilliant, but his decision, when to kick, where to kick, how to kick, when to pass, when to run. I thought, this guy looks like a fly half. And we've had this thing about Ford and Farrell in the past for donkey's years. They're two fly halves. Ajomo is a centre who's learned to be a fly half and thinks like a fly half. And when you get, he's up against Dingwall at the moment. Dingwall is a very clever bits and pieces facilitator, but he doesn't have that vision.

47:59He makes things work for other people. A Jomo just gives you, as he showed with the cross kick, which was as perfect as you could do. But it wasn't just the kick. It was the fact that he identified it so quickly. And you think there's a centre with the bulk of an inside back who wants the collision, who will carry over the gain line as he did yesterday, but he'll also think like George Ford. I found it a compelling performance. And when you think that he works with Ollie Lawrence, then I think he has to be now. He's gone from fifth choice to the favourite to be in Start the Six Nations. What I really liked about that try, it was what happened just before it.

48:39So the scrum wheeled to the point where Ford sort of had to go left because of the way the scrum wheeled. and Argentina shut that alley really quickly. And as Ford is going left, and then the door gets closed on him, Ajomo has, you just said he thinks like Ford. He has seen, he's already seen that. So he's put himself into the position. He's seen where Ford's going and he knows what's coming next. He knows where Fabio Boso is. He's just immediately assumed that role. So he's then put himself in the position to receive the return pass as Ford has to go back the other way and then executed it. And so it's not just what, it wasn't just the kick but it was the reading of the play before it that got the put him in the position to execute the kick which i i thought was really it was the highlight of the entire game it was a moment of brilliance in terms of vision and execution and execution is one thing and vision is another when you got them both as george ford showed against new zealand you got a hell of a player and this kid did really well alex there was a line in your piece that started to

49:39Alfie: cast your eyes forward towards the Six Nations at the start of next year and in terms of England. So end of 2025, 11 wins in a row, this team that has answered a lot of the questions that we were posing to them this time last year. Is Silverware what England have to aim for now if they're looking to kick on again for the Six Nations? Absolutely. I mean, we just talked about who the nearest challenges are to the best team in the world. And England are, I'd say England and France are the two England maybe marginally ahead because of the momentum they're on. you could argue France in terms of depth they could pick they're the closest to South Africa in terms of being able to pick a 23 that is absolute a gun 23 where there's no drop off also DuPont coming back is key for France DuPont coming back massive that game on the last round France-England I think England would be disappointed if they're not going for the title on that day that's where they are now after beating the All Blacks Maru Toji said we want to be a team where people expect us to win and England haven't been there for a long time.

50:38Will wrote in his preview for this England game, went back through England's three-year record of 50 games, 26 wins. They haven't been a team for a period of time where anybody could expect them to win. They themselves want to be in a position where they expect to win and that their following can expect them to win. And I think they play themselves now into that position where England will be going to the Six Nations expecting to be challenging for the title it doesn't mean that they beat france away in paris under the lights on the last day but if they are vying for the title then that has to be the next step for this team the fascinating thing about 2026 is that they've got some huge huge tests south africa away so they're in 11 at the moment wins in a row so then they go wales at home you expect them to win comfortably there scotland away don't know what coach is going to be coaching scotland there but you would even even though England haven't done it for a while, you'd expect them to beat, at this point, Scotland at Murrayfield.

51:34Then they've got Ireland, which you'd back them at home at the moment. The last time they played Ireland at home, they won. Italy, they don't lose to. France away is enormous. You would not expect them to win that at the moment because they haven't had a big away win under Steve Borthwick. And then the one after that, Ellis Park, box. And you think, wow, we've learnt loads about England in 2025. We're going to learn a massive amount about England in 2026. But England could lose to France and they could lose to Ellis Park to South Africa. And it'd be sort of okay. And in the nature of the performance, they don't have...

52:09England don't win a World Cup by winning... They're not going to win every game between now and 2027. They will lose games. And it may be that if England keep playing like they did against Argentina, they need to lose the odd game because they're not the finished article and Borthwick needs a reminder. So, yeah, they can afford to lose games. What they can't afford to do is drop off the quality of performance. That's got to be, from now on, it's got to be around the level of New Zealand and not the level of Argentina. That should be their aspiration, not worrying about winning every game. If they play like they did against New Zealand, they can win a Grand Slam.

52:48So that's the whole point. And I think, to be fair to Borthwick, you know, he does say it's how we play. It's not just the wins. and he's right on that.

52:57Alfie: Lads, time is defeating us. So two more, one on Wales, one on Australia, just to rattle off before we finish. Wales defeat to New Zealand. Good performance, but they're still routinely beaten and likewise New Zealand didn't play that well, but they still put 50 on them. Was there some green shoots there for Wales to cling on to? Maybe not ahead of facing South Africa, but... Yeah, it's so hard. And I feel for all the people who cover Wales more regularly than us because what do you say about the latest defeat by 50 points? And so you sort of only get to the point where you go, well, you've got to just start looking at the positive stuff because the default defeat for Wales now is 20-odd 50 at home.

53:36And so you can't just keep battering them over the head with the same criticism because we all know the issues. And look, they missed, I think, 38 tackles on the weekend and actually so did New Zealand. So it's quite a loose game generally. And there are moments in the game where it looks like their men against boys and they just can't tackle and people just running through them so easily you're seeing tries that you just don't see in the other test matches but we understand all the context around it and everything else so it's really hard and the people who follow it regularly would go look there was loads of there was loads of green shoots there was a bit more attacking like they they challenged New Zealand but it's still really hard to be happy with Wales being hit for 50 every time they play at home with the structure Wales has got at the moment with the problems they've got developing we're looking at test level but from community up rugby is struggling and it's a little bit like it's a bit like democratic politics the problem is that a five years isn't long enough to put into operation a really successful plan and if wales are to become the legends of rugby that they once were then this is a 10-year project to get them back and if they're trying to if they're thinking you know we'll they were talking about the japan game about how vital it is to win so that they're tier level for the World Cup.

54:49Wales are not going to be a force at the World Cup. And they shouldn't be thinking that way. They should be thinking about doing what they can. But how do we get back? And right now, everything is short term. Honestly, it's like Labour, it's like Conservative. Whilst rugby is exactly the same, they're not giving themselves a chance to really get the nation on its feet. I would say about those tackles defensively, if Wales can come to Twickenham on the first round of the Six Nations having been fired up and put some effort into drilling their defence and can play offensively the way they did, that's going to stand them in good sense.

55:24It's not going to solve a wider problem, but they were so soft in those tackles that you think if they can improve, if they can just make 50 % more tackles or not miss half the tackles they missed, they are going to be in a better place. They're scoring in plenty of points. It is a solvable problem. You're just falling off tackles. It's just a bad, just poor technique. get that fixed they're going to be in a better place they're going to make it harder for teams to score that has to be the starting point they can't be shipping 50 just make yourselves hard to beat which just means make some tackles

55:55Alfie: finish us off really quickly I wanted to mention the Wallabies another defeat really disappointing November for them we've spoken about it previously that they just look out of gas I suppose Alex my question is where do the Wallabies go from here and what happens with Joe Schmicks he's due to leave mid-2026 some suggestions in the Australian impressed of whether that will happen sooner. I was really surprised how they've tailed away. It felt like he'd got them, he mistimed the Lions tour. They then peaked by winning in South Africa at Ellis Park, which is a hell of an achievement, but they've sort of trailed off since then.

56:29And I know he's got issues at 10, and he's trying to find solutions, but it felt like he was a bit pig-headed in not picking James O 'Connor, when he may not be the future, but he's definitely the answer now to trying to make them competitive and keep them in games. He is a strategist. He's not perfect, but he was definitely the best they had. And for multiple games, he didn't pick them. Didn't pick him, sorry. I think to repeat what we've said, they've got an unbelievable athlete in Joseph Suoliti who is anonymous in games. They cannot find a way to use him. He's looking disinterested almost, I feel.

57:10Yeah. there was a lot of a lot of conversation in Australia so the Waratahs before he got injured were using him at fullback Australia used him at outside centre but they can't very rarely can they find any space for him to attack he's having to try and manufacture almost everything there's got to be an argument I know Tom Wright is a hell of a player there's got to be an argument for trying him at fullback because he's got vision he's got he's brilliant under the high ball I'd put him on the wing to use him as an attacking weapon you know this talk about tall flankers second row standing on the wing use him as a wing and a winger who can step in who can step in yeah there's a lot of problems to be solved there but I do think they've got some players they've shown they've got players they haven't got enough Alex that's the killer because it's a long season Joe Smith said before the England game when Steve Borthwick said you know they've been playing all year they're match ready we're not Smith said straight away we've been travelling around the world we've played the Lions series we're knackered and you can be knackered if you've got 30 good players they do not have 30 test players so they've got to find a fly half and they have got to get very quickly a bunch of young ones whose names we don't even know yet coming through because they don't have the depth so there is talk of another rugby league raid which is probably probably the shortcut to finding a solution certainly for their home World Cup for their home World Cup Marky Mark coming back would be good yeah he's coming back nathan cleary's the guy that a lot of people are talking about the kangaroos playmaker who knows but your other point about they don't have a squad brings us right back to where we started which is stop arranging test matches outside the window that you don't have enough players to play in because one of the reasons they lost all their games on this tour is because they don't have the players and they played too many matches it's their worst home unions tour since 1958 says us so frustrating is it they've had so many like that ellis park

59:10Alfie: victory the way they built through the lines i mean i still think they deserve a lot of criticism for getting the timing right on a series that comes around once every 12 years but we are we are loads of questions for them questions for plenty of the sides as well we'll leave it there because there's been a lot to fit in alex pleasure as always enjoyed november i really have yeah i have it's been um when you follow england as closely as we do to sort of and we've had a long time of feeling like we're just telling the same story over and over again it's been i've enjoyed telling the story of a team that is clearly on the move i enjoyed going over to see south africa because you know whether you like some of their antics or not whether you believe the game should be just about power or or broader they are the best team in the world and they may well be on the road to being the best team ever three consecutive world cups there's no at the moment there's no one close so just the privilege to see that live special yeah i've enjoyed it power in person for the for the box will it's nice to be chatting about positive england story at the end of this year after after last year yeah i mean as we were saying last well that's that about 26 wins and 50 tests before this year it's it's just something different like england consistently winning hasn't happened for a long time and i wasn't reporting on england when they last did it under Eddie Jones so it's sometimes quite nice to watch them win.

1:00:26Alfie: And Barnsley it's been good I've enjoyed November because we've got you in studio twice and I don't think anyone gets both political and religious references into the party in quite the same way. Yeah well I'm in a bit of a bad mood because there were only five carriages on the train. Oh don't get started on the trains. So I stood a long way and it was bad news. Barnsley you should look up we've got two TV screens above us which are basically showing replays of Arsenal banging four goals past Tottenham I don't know how that could put you in a bad mood. No, so I take that back. SA's three goals.

1:00:54It has been fascinating. I'm delighted that England have kept going. But the other thing that has slightly annoyed me has been the non-stop ringing of referees' whistles and delays in my ears. I think I go to bed at night time and I hear tempo. Can we spend 20 minutes seeing if there's anything wrong with that?

1:01:16Alfie: Can we see another replay? Have we got a different angle? Have you got a different angle? can we see it 100 times slower well it wasn't perfect but it's been good fun yeah it's been great no more midweek pods for you for the time being anyway they will return at some stage so your next pod next Monday we hope you have enjoyed all the coverage both on the pod and in the paper throughout November if you want to get in touch with us the email address is theruck at the times dot co dot uk thanks for listening