Australia and USA in Pool A shootout & South Africa produce the shock of the tournament

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2:20Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times, where the quarterfinal line-up for the Women's World Cup is pretty much set. We're going to look back on the weekend and ahead to the final round of pool fixtures in just a moment throughout this podcast. I'm Alfie Reynolds and Elgin Olderman. We are on our travels for a change.

2:39Elgan: We are. We're here at East Sussex National, which is where the Australia team are based. A lot of the interest is based down near Brighton this weekend. That's where England are facing Australia and New Zealand and Ireland on Sunday as well. So we're just a bit north of Brighton. You picked me up at Uckfield Station very kindly and here we are sheltering away from the rain.

2:58Alfie: One of those drives on the way down where you see all sorts of places that you would never normally see once you pull off the motorway, driving for about 40 minutes, but picking Elgin up. So nice to be out and about once again. And the reason for the pod coming a day later is because we thought, you know what, let's try and get into some of these camps. Let's try and speak to the players, the people involved in this tournament. So coming up later in the pod, we're going to be chatting to the Wallaroos co-captain, Emily Chancellor. And we'll get on to everything else as well. Another thumping win for the Red Roses.

3:26Alfie: The quarterfinal line-up, as I say, is pretty much set in stone, but still some fascinating matches coming up this weekend. First up, though, Elgin, should we start with Italy versus South Africa? Because I suppose that game, the victory for South Africa, coupled with the Wallaroos draw with the USA, we had the two best games of this World Cup by an absolute mile on the weekend just gone.

3:48Elgan: Yeah, the South Africa win, historic for a variety of reasons. Firstly, in terms of this tournament, it was the first upset. If you take the very basic ruling that if the team that's listed as the away team on the scoreboard wins at this World Cup, that means it was an upset. So in that regard, South Africa ranked number 12 in the world, winning 29-24 against Italy, who were number 8, very much penciled in as the runners-up in Pool D. But for South Africa now, making it into the knockouts for the very first time. And what's so interesting about the Springbok women is that obviously the Springbok men, four times world cup winners huge superpower of the men's game but the women's team has really been left behind they are still responsible for the red roses largest ever win back in 2005 they didn't even play a single match between 2014 and 2018 so this really did feel like a sort of a coming of age moment really for the springbok women program still a long way to go of course

4:42Alfie: but yes it was the win the tournament needed and subscribers to the times should go and check out the piece that you've written Elgin on the Springbok women because it goes through a lot of the things you've just said and explained in terms of the history of this team and the fact they didn't even play for a number of years and they haven't been on the same level I suppose as the Springbok men's team we speak a lot about this World Cup being a huge moment for the Red Roses naturally our focus obviously tends to centre around England but you forget about all the other teams actually and it's maybe something we're going to cover across this pod when we chat about Samoa and other nations but is this a potential line in the sand moment for the Springbok women's team?

5:18Elgan: Well we certainly think so and all the players have been talking about it in that regard you've got a team such as the Bulls Daisies who two years ago became the first fully professional South African club team there's this talk of a fully professional league out in South Africa with with up to 150 centrally contracted players that was announced as an intention last year it's gone a bit quiet but they're still hoping that they'll bring that around so certainly this this win it These are the types of wins that do get people back at home in the country more interested in something that they weren't at the time.

5:48Elgan: Because as anyone says, people like teams that win. And in this case, Springbok women did make that surprise victory against Italy.

5:54Alfie: And we know the Springboks, perhaps more than anyone else, or certainly as much as anyone else, they enjoy a team that is winning. We spoke about it on the last episode, but the one-sided scorelines. How important was this game, for example? pool I should say as well actually it finished uh Italy 24 South Africa 29 and the 31 all draw between the USA and Australia how important are they for the competition as a whole I think it's

6:17Elgan: it's very important for people who take you know competition and sporting integrity very seriously I think I think no one pretended that the first three rounds the pool stage of this world cup wouldn't feel a bit more like a festival of rugby I think Owen Slott he was down at Sandy Park on Sunday he described it as such people happy to be there people that don't normally go to rugby games I think at the Stadium of Light I heard that they did a an exit survey and something like 30 % of the people had never been to a rugby game before the people that went to the Stadium of Light so while there are always mismatches at this early stage of the tournament you do want as a sporting contest for those upsets to happen those close games to happen and after a first round in which only you know no one got within 20 points and it was difficult enough for for losing teams to even get to double figures for us now to have a draw an upset win but also in the likes of Fiji Spain and Japan putting up really good fights in large defeats but still you know not getting nilled on the scoreboard it was very much an improvement the second week compared on the first week and it

7:22Alfie: means we've got a few different surprises because South Africa have now qualified for the quarter finals rather than italy so they're going to go through in pool d it'll be a decision of who finishes top between that game between them and france later on uh later on on the weekend and then also 31 all draw usa australia brilliant game back and forth so tight i mean did you see this coming i think we expected it to be a really tough game didn't we but the 31 all draw i'm not

7:50Elgan: sure anyone predicted that we did you'd have regarded australia as favorites on the basis that they had won the most recent matchup between the teams by eight points, 27-19, but that showed that it was going to be a close one. As it stands, based off how the pool looks at the moment, Australia are still favourites to go through because what needs to happen on the weekend is that USA need to beat Samoa handsomely. They would need England to beat Australia handsomely, but there is a 135-point swing that needs to happen as well for it to happen. So while USA are still in the running, it is still Australia in the driving seat.

8:25Alfie: It's possible though, isn't it? I mean, it's totally feasible that England, as we've seen them do, will rack up a massive score. Samoa, as brilliant as some of those moments were against the Red Roses, when they kick that penalty, you would expect to lose heavily to the USA. So it's feasible that we see that turnaround in points difference.

8:41Elgan: It'll be up to USA first. They'll face Samoa in York. So they'll have to lay the target, try and eat into that 135-point swing. And then it'll be up to the Red Roses, is knowing exactly I mean I'm sure they'll say that they're not fussed by anything like this but they could know exactly what they have to do to knock out Australia if they were so inclined to redouble their efforts to try and make that happen and also I know you know look in a game of 80

9:05Alfie: minutes there's so much that happens and it's very difficult to pinpoint one moment or a couple of moments but if you're the USA how much are you looking at a conversion basically in front of the post that you get timed out on because the ball falls off the tee right at the end so you're not able to take it and then a conversion where you hit both uprights and it still doesn't go through

9:22Elgan: absolutely sometimes just just doesn't go your way we've seen them i mean in the same group we saw the importance with i know england were racking up a score anyway but helena roland putting a fantastic performance off the tee for england kicking 11 out of 14 getting them over right from out wide in these close games that those those kicks are even more important than when you're you know having 14 opportunities to kick a goal uh right okay we'll leave it there

9:46Alfie: in terms of those matches coming on to England shortly. But let's chat to someone in the Australia camp. What has been their reflections on a pretty frustrating draw, I suppose. Up next, we're going to hear from the co-captain, Emily Chancellor. Emily, welcome along to The Ruck. Thanks so much for your time. Thanks so much for having me. Oh, no, it's a pleasure. My first question for you, there's loads we can get into about last weekend, looking ahead to this weekend. The first question, though, is how many players in the team play golf? Play golf. Are you asking that because we're on a golf course right now?

10:16Alfie: That is exactly why. To be honest, based off what I see on social media, I would say that we don't have a huge participation in golf. I know Lydia Cavola's name pops to my head earlier, and so does Sammy Woods as two golfers. But I also know that we're not allowed to play golf whilst we're here because they're worried about our extra, yeah, any extra movements. So even though the avid golfers might be okay, the rest of us are on a strict no just in case we're using different muscles that we don't normally use. I was going to ask, I was thinking, is this going to be a really popular place because it's lovely but very quiet and secluded but then I mean it's even worse for the golfers later if you're here and you're not even allowed to play golf so there we go.

10:57Well I don't know, I think we're a bit fair weather in Australia, we don't do a lot of golf in the rain and this week's predicted with a lot of wet weather so I think we'll be lucky and grateful that we've got beautiful indoor rooms and facilities to be able to hang out in over here.

11:10Alfie: Yeah okay you're all good. I also didn't know if it would be one of your sports because this kind of brings us on to your route into rugby I suppose because actually you came into rugby quite late at 21 right yep so what were you playing what sports were you playing before that and just explain how rugby ended up being a door that you could open yeah sure um so I grew up being a swimmer and playing a lot of netball netball was my team sport swimming was my sport um and you know the 11 12 13 sessions a week sort of swimming that takes over your life, which I absolutely loved. I loved the hard work.

11:41I loved the training. Netball was literally just the team sport that I played to entertain myself on a Saturday, I suppose. And I did end up making a few rep teams for netball, got a scholarship to Sydney Uni for netball. And when I was there, got an email from, I assume, Rugby Australia at the time. They must have got the access to the uni database and it was a come try rugby, pathway to gold, road to Rio. You could go to the Olympics and play rugby sevens. And as a girl who had grown up watching the Waratahs and Sydney Uni and the Wallabies and have a dad that just absolutely loves the game, I sort of thought it'd be pretty cool to try it.

12:25I didn't think I'd necessarily make it, but I thought it'd be awesome to be able to say I knew how to do what I loved watching.

12:35Alfie: That's a decision that's worked out pretty well for you. Yeah. We sit here now with PWR, a couple of World Cups now for the Wallaroos. Yeah, no, it was a perfect opportunity. And to be honest, I went to that first come try rugby session with no mouth guard, no idea what I was doing, got tackled and thought, this is a game I need to learn how to play. The satisfaction of physical, mental, emotional, every whole part of your body, you have to use it. So I thought that, you know, that was the sort of game that I liked the challenge of. And I could see the opportunity and the pathway in the sevens and didn't ever get an Aussie sevens cap.

13:13not saying it could never happen but it's probably very unlikely um but I love that pathway and that opportunity that got me into the idea of 15s a few years later and like definitely so glad that I went along to that come try rugby session I feel like that first tackle is a moment that goes one

13:31Alfie: of two ways isn't it and that you're either absolutely loving it which you were or you're going the total opposite way but to be honest I don't think I loved it but it was that determination of like, well, that wasn't right. So how do I make sure that I don't end up flat on my back again next time? Yeah, sure. Well, look, it's worked out pretty well, clearly, as we find ourselves chatting. Now, talk to me about if we kind of bring it back to the weekend just gone, and the 31-0 draw against the US, I'd imagine was kind of emotionally a bit of a strange feeling at full time, maybe a bit of frustration there.

14:02Alfie: But you've had a couple of days now to kind of process it and some distance from the result. How have you as a squad reflected on that? Yeah, I think it's been a really it has been a really interesting 24 48 hours because we were pretty deflated at the end of the game doing media at the end of the game was really hard but we did have a good regroup we had a good mental skills session as a team on Sunday along with our review and talked about how many positive things that we did in the game and our opportunities that exist when we play against England next week is like it's all really positive and we had to go with the mindset and sort of challenge ourselves to say we don't we don't want to participate in this game we're not going to count points and and see how many like points we might need to stay within a points difference game again um with Samoa and USA obviously being the other the other game in our pool yeah um but we really want to make sure that our mindset is focusing on the opportunities that we have to win because we know that England have a lot less riding on this game we have everything and why not go for an upset and believe that we can because if we're already going into them into a game with the mindset of how do we do a points difference where we're not really giving ourself a lot of opportunity for for mistakes so let's make sure that we have the right mindset and we're setting ourselves up for a performance that we want to be really proud of that must make it a lot easier for you guys in a way as well because it really focuses on in on what you would normally which is your performance and the result and you obviously want to win but there is as you say there is a losing bonus point or a try bonus point or points difference and what's going to happen in the other game.

15:38Alfie: But just to strip it all back, focus as you usually would is, I would imagine, the best way for you guys to approach this match. Yeah, I think so. And I think it's been really good for the team to just go emotionally. Yeah, we're buying into this. We want to believe that we're going to win this. And, you know, it's simple things that we can do really well. There's a few things that we need to sharpen up from the USA game to give ourselves the best opportunity. But ultimately, we ended up attacking for only 30 % of the game last week. And every time we entered the 22, we had some really good creative attack.

16:11And I think we want to back that. We want to believe that our attack shape is really good. And when we have the ball in the right parts of the field, we're going to do something with it. So we back our attack. And we're also really proud of the fact that we then spent 70 % of the game defending. And we defended really well. And we just need to make sure that our discipline is high. And we're getting our chop tackles done successfully. And we're in a really strong position to be able to compete.

16:36Alfie: And can I ask you about your coach, Jo Yap, former Red Rose herself. What's she like as a coach and what has she brought to you all as a group? Yeah, she's been a wonderful addition to the Australian team over the last two years. We're really sad to see her go at the end of this campaign. But she's really bought the idea of that humility. Having a female coach, obviously she's a bit more emotional, just like us as players, which makes it a little bit easier to connect. She's really opened up the, like she really believes in the girls and she wants to get the leadership group to be doing a lot more talking and it's been a really great challenge and opportunity for us as leaders to have to do that as well.

17:15So she really empowers the people. She's been great from a perspective of being a nine in the past so she's got that attacking idea, not that she's our attack coach but she's got that shape in her mind and she also allows us to just be individual. She's never going to get angry at us for trying as long as she can see the effort.

17:36Alfie: And how has it been for you kind of seeing, I suppose, the growth in women's rugby in particular and in England, which is something you've had first-hand experience of previously when you've been with Harlequins? It was quite amazing, I thought, that the opening game of this World Cup broke the record for a women's World Cup crowd, which was the last World Cup final. And it feels like this is a real boon and to be in the middle of that and see the crowds and all that sort of thing. Yeah, it's really special. I've used the anecdote a couple of times of being over here for the PWR and watching England versus France in the final game of the Six Nations in 23.

18:11And sitting in a pub at sort of nine o 'clock in the morning outside Twickenham and bumping into a couple of girls that were sharing the table and saying, you know, why are you here? Because they didn't look like rugby players. and they were like, oh, we don't know anything about rugby. We're just here because it's the thing you're supposed to do. And I remember thinking at the time, like, how cool that there is a culture over here because of the Lionesses' success and seeing women do so well in sport to turn around and be able to go, well, of course we're buying a ticket to this game. We don't know the rules.

18:45We don't understand what's going on, but we're here to support women's sport. And I think that was a pretty cool moment for me to be like, well we've got a world cup coming up over here this is going to be a great place for us to play rugby and you know I felt it watching I felt it being part of it now in the world cup and there's just such a beautiful supportive environment and the excitement around this is far bigger than I've sort of seen or felt from a female rugby player's perspective.

19:14Alfie: And what's it like in Oz in terms of the landscape I was out there recently for the Lions tour and a big part of that was where do the Wallabies fit into NRL and AFL and this kind of amazing sporting landscape but it's really competitive from the women's point of view and women's rugby and AFLW and NRLW kind of where does it fit in at the moment? Well I think you said exactly right you know Australia is a sporting landscape it's not a one game country we we have sport coming out of our ears and there is an opportunity for anyone which is exciting because it means that the people that want to play rugby are choosing to play rugby.

19:48The opportunities are growing there at the moment. So in terms of funding and the opportunities to play Super W and club rugby, they're growing. I think Women's Rugby Union is still the largest growing part of rugby union in Australia. So it shows that we're not in a terrible position, like everyone keeps saying, because we're still getting the growth in numbers of participation in Australia. So, yeah, of course, the landscape's pretty flooded, but that's all right, because there's still enough people wanting to play sport.

20:17Alfie: And just finally for you, you guys have your opportunity over here to inspire people and hopefully do something really special. Final one on the Red Rose. It was something actually you said when you were in the press conference earlier of kind of leaning into, you know how good the Red Roses are. I know you've been reminded of that so often, but really leaning into the, let's be the team that causes the upset. Let's really embrace that kind of mantle. Yeah, I think, you know, we do. We know, everyone knows, it's no secret that England is number one in the world and they have a bit of redemption from the last World Cup being in that position and then losing the final.

20:50So we know they've got something on the line, but we also do too. We don't want to walk away from this competition, this game thinking, well, that's it for us. That's just not good enough. So we've got an opportunity where this game matters for us. It doesn't matter for them. They've already qualified. We respect them, but we also believe that we are a world-class team and we've got to go out and believe it. and put that performance on the park.

21:12Alfie: Well, look, Emily, wish you all the very best at the weekend and really appreciate your time today. So all the best. Good luck. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

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24:02Alfie: So thank you once again to the Wallaroos for being so accommodating with us today. Brilliant to get Emily on the pod. Elgin, who goes through, Poole, USA or Australia?

24:13Elgan: I think Australia will go through on the basis that that point swing is just a bit too much for them to achieve. That's how I'm feeling at the moment.

24:21Alfie: OK, elsewhere in Poole, as expected, England massive win against Samoa. 92 points to three. as we always say Elgin as I feel like I'm always repeating myself on this one it's so difficult to appraise and judge and evaluate the Red Roses so let me ask you this a bit more pointed instead what are England doing well do you think at the moment because we expect them to win these games we expect them to win them comfortably but what's impressing you about the Red Roses

24:45Elgan: what they're doing well is that they have just about two players in every position that can perform in a way where you don't see much of a drop-off so at the weekend we had Helena Rowland who regularly plays fly half for her club, but is a utility back for her country and is more often seen at outside centre or at fullback, especially wearing the number 23 jersey, which she's very much made her own for that reason. We've had her playing at fly half, the third choice fly half realistically, running the show, like I say, kicking 11 out of 14. You had 13 changes to that team. There could have been as many as 15.

25:21Elgan: They could have changed the entire starting line-up and it would have been the same result. It's just that only a few injuries have got in the way there. I think what we've seen in previous finals is England affected by injuries. At Eden Park three years ago, they essentially had half a scrum half fit. And Claudia Maloney-McDonald, who was more of a wing these days, ended up playing half an hour at scrum half. So we have seen injuries affect England. So they've been building towards that. They've had a few injuries already. Holly Aitreson, the only player yet to have a run out. We've had one or two others that haven't been available for various reasons.

25:54Elgan: Joey Oldcroft, the captain, missing the rest of the pool stage. And yet thus far, you don't see much of a drop off. So, John Mitchell often talks about having these two different teams ready to go. And that is still working well. But of course, when it comes to knockouts, they'll want that first choice team. And John Mitchell, I think, is very aware of who that first choice team is as well.

26:12Alfie: Where does Helena Rowland then fit into the first choice team? Do you think with her back and playing well, she's nailed on for the 23 jersey?

26:19Elgan: I think my expectation would be that with everyone being fit and available, you would have Holly Aitchison and Helena Rowland in the numbers 22 and 23 jerseys so you'd have Holly Aitchison as the main fly half cover for Zoe Harrison but also covering inside centre and then you've got Helena Rowland who can cover everywhere from 10 to 15 at international level she's even been practicing as the fourth choice scrum half should it be required but now that Claudia Maloney McDonald is back fit on the wing as well as the two scrum halves actually in the squad that shouldn't be necessary and what does that potentially mean then for Emily Scarrett I think Emily Scarrett you know she's here at the fifth world cup and she's very much been a squad player for some time in recent year or two come back from an injury as well prior to that that kept her out for more than a year she was here she wasn't supposed to play in that game against United States on the opening Friday but an injury meant that she came onto the bench played 20 minutes it very much felt like the Samoa game was going to be perhaps you know something of a farewell you know start in terms of as a starter and she was supposed to start at outside center but a little shoulder nerve problem later on meant that Megan Jones carried on so of course there are still two more opportunities for Emily's character play because the team to face Australia are that we don't know who that is yet we don't know if John Mitchell will go for a bit of a half and half pick and mix team you know it could be that he does the same for the quarterfinal against whoever that may be we think that will be Scotland it could be the case that he doesn't quite go full ball for that game as well so of course there are still opportunities for Emily Scarrett to play at what even she has admitted is her final World Cup she's she's not pretending that she's going to still be here for a World Cup in four years time but how much we see of her in that England jersey

28:00Alfie: at this tournament we don't yet know and just to mention as well you spoke about goal kicking and how good that was that's good to see isn't it from England hasn't always been the case I wonder whether Emma Singh was going to do the goal kicking at the weekend because she's so reliable off the tee but I suppose if we think that Helena Rowland is going to be possibly the 23 jersey when it really comes to the crunch games for England that's why you have her kicking off the tee in the game against Samoa.

28:24Elgan: Yeah there's two reasons behind it it's that it's that you're more likely to see Helena Rowland having to kick in a potential World Cup semi-final or final it's also because this was her chance to steer the ship at fly half and you know there's something it's something mental isn't there when you're a fly half if you're a goal kicker you want to be the one who has that responsibility as well so it was very much you know giving her the keys that day you are running the ship you are the goal kicker and you know 27 points a try and 11 conversions she

28:50Alfie: couldn't have done much more the thing that really impressed me about England to answer the question I put to you was just how we haven't really seen any sort of drop-off even at the weekend they had that game one after 20 minutes but there was very little drop-off I felt in terms of the quality of performance throughout the full 80 minutes I think that's probably the sort of thing that if you're part of the coaching team and John Mitchell you're going to be so so pleased with at the moment let's mention Samoa though because if you look at the scoreline and you don't follow women's rugby particularly 92-3 you're going to make some certain judgments there but in it there's an important context to Samoa and the moment where they did kick that penalty and the joyous scenes I mean I wasn't there you were there that must have been an amazing moment it was the biggest celebration

29:31Elgan: I've seen of the tournament thus far and I mean Samoa they're a fully amateur team their players were talking in the week very movingly about you know leaving their families their children at home how they've had to take leave without pay to be here i mean it's it's sort of a similar story the men's game samoa men's rugby as well there's so much goodwill and affection towards it especially from you know northern hemisphere rugby fans but it's not a union flush with cash they do struggle with you know resources and getting their best team out because they're strewn all over the world with the women's team even more so because like i say they are they have full-time other jobs there There are primary school teachers there, retail assistants, sports school coordinators, that type of thing.

30:13Elgan: So the chasm in resources for England versus Smough is basically as big as it gets at this World Cup. Their aim was to score a try because they've never done that in their two previous games against the Red Roses. They did get close. They did a brilliant attack towards the end of the first half where they got five metres towards the trial line, but sadly turned it over right to the death. But then they had that scrum penalty. they went for the post and Harmony Vatao who had a 10 minute period where she looked like the best fly half in the tournament she was boshing and sidestepping and then she kicked those three points in the same way that Brazil got their three points in the opening round against South Africa and they were just you know delighted to get that zero off the board so while you look at that scoreline and think there's nothing there for Samoa to celebrate in that moment they were absolutely overjoyed and they'll be hoping for a lot more they'll be hoping for that elusive try

30:59Alfie: against USA this weekend and there was a really nice moment I saw in the press conference after which I think our friend and colleague Nick Heath asked, the Samoa coach and the captain, almost to paraphrase, is it bittersweet this moment in that you're seeing kind of the health of where the women's game is in England and the crowds and where the Red Roses and some of the Northern Hemisphere teams are. But in the same breath, it kind of really highlights how far behind Samoa currently are. And I guess you would have been in that press conference. He gave a really good answer.

31:25Elgan: Yeah, it was the same on Tuesday when we had a very late night press conference in Kettering where four Samoa players and their head coach Ramsey were speaking. Ramsey was very pointed in saying that they want to play the likes of New Zealand and Australia more and they feel like they don't get to do that enough. They hope to play the Black Ferns before this World Cup. That didn't happen. So they don't play teams like that very often. I think they played New Zealand twice. They played Australia twice ever. They've now played England three times. The other plea he made was that he wants Premiership women's rugby clubs to come and sign Samoan players so that they can experience semi-professional environments, professional environments in a way that they haven't thus far.

32:06Elgan: So yes, that bittersweet comment, it was very much talking about they were just delighted to be here. Hearing crowds of more than 10 ,000 people chant Samoa, Samoa, chant their name, it brought tears to their eyes on more than one occasion during the match and after.

32:22Alfie: If we shift our attention to elsewhere, Scotland 29, Fiji 15, Scotland into the quarterfinal the first time they're into a World Cup quarterfinal for the Women's Rugby World Cup in over two decades. We knew the important I suppose the important game, the crunch game we saw it as last week, that win against Wales. They've got the job done against Fiji and they march on and quite possibly going to end up being England's opponents.

32:46Elgan: Yeah, I mean they could afford to have a slightly worse performance against Fiji just because as we said it was all pinning on that first weekend. You knew immediately that whoever won between Scotland and Wales would probably be in the quarterfinals and have a successful World Cup. Whoever lost was looking at imminent departure. So it has happened. Wales already eliminated after losing to Canada. And then Scotland, I mean, scraping past Fiji to a degree, but still winning 29-15. Now they've got their next big match against Canada, where few people will be expecting them to win that because Canada are number two in the world.

33:20Elgan: But as we've seen, this tournament has got a bit of a flavour for the slight upset now. So if they can match their level of performance that they had against Wales and they will give Canada a good fight.

33:30Alfie: And as for Wales, 42-0 defeat to Canada out of the World Cup. The big disappointment is still, I would imagine, going to be how they performed against Scotland in the opening round because as we say, that was so key. How are Wales going to review this World Cup, do you think?

33:44Elgan: Well, they have to review it very seriously because any situation where you've just lost 42-0 and you're trying to put a positive spin on it and talk about an improved performance shows how bad they were in that opening round. It was all pinned on that opening round match because having been only three points behind in the Six Nations clash, people were looking at that as the real close encounter of that first weekend. So to just be completely outfought in every facet really, to lose by 30 points to a team that at the last World Cup you were just beating, at the recent Six Nations you were really going toe-to-toe with them, it's hugely disappointing.

34:22Elgan: and I mean it's not guaranteed that they'll beat Fiji in the last match they absolutely have to to gain any sense of pride it'll be you know just an absolute sporting disaster are that were they to

34:32Alfie: lose that and to have three defeats from three we expected more from them given that Sean Lynn had had more time in charge of the team do you think we were unfair to expect more from them I don't think so just because you know we saw what they could achieve in that sort of first

34:48Elgan: wave of professionalism when they managed to get third in the Six Nations and we often talk about trying to cement your position as the best of the rest behind England and France who have been the standard bearers for so long and we've seen Wales, Ireland and Scotland sort of oscillate in that regard but Wales made that first play for it but since then I mean successive wooden spoons we've had so many instances where it's been one step forward and a few more back they had that win in Australia on that two-match tour and then they lose the second match again so it's just another frustrating moment because yes three years isn't as long as you know the Red Roses have had for their professionalism they've had plenty of off-field strife as well with contractual wrangling the worry is that thus far they haven't been galvanized by either off-field strife which perhaps we've seen Scotland be galvanized by to a degree because they're now going through contractual wrangling but equally Wales are now talking about sort of off-field contentment at the moment but that hasn't spurred them on to that big performance either so you're just wondering what it will be to to turn the turn the Wales team around let's see what happens in the six nations

35:52Alfie: at the start of next year um just round us off in terms of the weekend just gone Elgin New Zealand 62 Japan 19 Ireland 43 Spain 27 wins for Ireland and the Black Ferns as we would probably expect better showings though from Spain and Japan I think that's worth a mention yeah absolutely I

36:10Elgan: I mean, Japan getting three tries against New Zealand, Spain getting a four-try bonus point against Ireland. They were both, like I say, fairly convincing wins, but also significant upticks on the previous weekend in terms of how losing teams performed. What it does mean is that we're getting what we expected, which is New Zealand and Ireland going through from Pool C, and that big Sunday clash in Brighton in which, on paper, you think New Zealand will have too much. But Ireland have this history of upsetting the Black Ferns, not only at the 2014 World Cup, which still to this day is the only World Cup game the Black Ferns have lost since the first tournament in 1991.

36:51Elgan: And they're not doubling that up with a WXV win last year in September out there. So they played them three times. They've beaten them twice. So Ireland will be hoping they have history on their side on Sunday.

37:02Alfie: So in terms of the teams through to the quarterfinals, England in Pool A, Scotland and Canada in Pool B, New Zealand and Ireland in Pool C, France and South Africa in Pool D. Despite that, though, Elgin, I think it would be easy to look at that and think, oh, blimey, all the quarterfinalists pretty much, with the exception of Pool A, have been sorted before the final round of pool fixtures. Is it all that interesting? But I think it really is this weekend, isn't it? You've got Canada, Scotland in Pool B to decide who finishes top. And remember, where these teams fall and which side of the draw they fall on is really important because they are all going to want to avoid the Red Roses.

37:37Alfie: New Zealand Island in Pool C, as you say, that will decide who finishes top, plus the added context of the recent rivalry between those two teams and how good Ireland have been against New Zealand. And then France, South Africa in Pool D also to decide who finishes top. So I think we've still got a really interesting set of fixtures this weekend.

37:54Elgan: Yeah, it's almost like a set of pool stage finals for all of the pool teams. But then also it means that we've got the smaller teams playing against each other where they'll have a better chance of winning. You know, Japan-Spain should be a really fun game out in York because they're two teams that are quite fun to watch. And they've played the two big guns thus far and scored some tries. So they'll be loving an opportunity to go up against each other. So, yeah, plenty at stake this weekend. Like you say, find out which side of the draw people will be on, which will affect semifinals and finals.

38:23Elgan: So, you know, a team like South Africa, they probably weren't thinking that they'd have so much going into a last weekend match against France. But suddenly France, of course, still favourites, but they'll have reanimated belief about that match now.

38:35Alfie: Absolutely. And you mentioned it earlier, but Wales, Fiji as well. I mean, so important for Wales to get a victory. If they were to bomb out with three defeats, it would just make it seem even more stark. So I'm really intrigued in all the games. Let me highlight Ireland, New Zealand in particular, though, because we circled that before the pool stages even started. and also I think it's crucial because where do the Black Ferns end up in terms of when the Red Roses might end up facing them and the potential banana skin that they always seem to be for England at World Cup so how do you see it going between New Zealand and Ireland?

39:07Elgan: I do think you have to regard New Zealand as the favourites just based off what we've seen so far there is just something about World Cups as well which I think just boosts them which is why that 2014 result was such an outlier because like I say, the only time they've lost in the past 30-odd years. So I still do see New Zealand winning that, but I'll be writing a piece this week about those two famous wins. I've spoken to some of the Ireland players that played in that 2014 game already about just how they managed to do that. So regardless of how it falls, there'll be huge amounts of intrigue around that.

39:41Elgan: And like you say, whether England possibly end up facing the Black Ferns in a semi-final or a final hinges on that match. we're expecting a final but that's why an upset would tilt the balance of the knockout stages.

39:52Alfie: Good stuff so the rest of your week Elgin how many trips down to this part of the world do you have and then of course the game on the weekend?

39:57Elgan: I'll be back down to Brighton early on Thursday and then I'll be here for both matches on Saturday and Sunday staying overnight so yes England Australia at 5pm on Saturday and then New Zealand Ireland on Sunday afternoon as well.

40:09Alfie: Expecting a load more changes for the Red Roses once again?

40:13Elgan: I think like I say I feel it might be a bit of a mix and match there might be a handful of changes but we'll see how it goes

40:20Alfie: good stuff Elgin appreciate you joining me great to have Emily Chancellor on the pod as well thanks again to the Wallaroos and thank you very much for listening if you want to drop us an email the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk send us an email and we will get to it if not leave a review make sure you follow and subscribe all of that stuff you know what you're doing and we'll be back with you next week

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