Australia vs Lions - 2nd test preview

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1:20Will Kelleher: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. We are sat on the Docklands here in Melbourne, just west of the CBD. Alfie Reynolds here, Will Kelleher, Owen Slott, Alex Lowe. The Wallabies have named their team. The Lions have named their team for that all-important second test this weekend coming up at the MCG. We are looking forward to it. Where should we start, boys? We'll get on to the Wallabies maybe because Will was there. Alex, Slotty and myself were at the Lions. And Alex, there's a few different bits to get through, isn't there? Three changes for Andy Farrell.

1:56Will Kelleher: Shall we run through them? So Andrew Porter starts. Ellis Genge has been named on the bench, which is quite interesting. Oli Chesson comes in for Joe McCarthy, who is injured. And Bundiaki comes in for Sione Tupolotu. Where do we want to start with this team, Alex? Where do you reckon?

2:10Alex Lowe: We should start with Gary Ringrose.

2:12Will Kelleher: That's the news line, isn't it?

2:13Alex Lowe: So the line's intention had been to drop Tupolotu and Hugh Jones and pick the all-island midfield of Bundiaki and Gary Ringrose. That was the plan all the way up to the end of training today, literally minutes before they announced the team. Gary Ringrose approached Andy Farrell and the team doctor and reported some concussion symptoms. Now, he has a concussion history, and on this tour he has a concussion history. Obviously, he missed the first test because he was going through the protocols, having reported a delayed concussion after the Brumbies game. He came back, played 65 minutes against the First Nations Pacifica on Tuesday, suffered no symptoms then, no problems, took no blows to the head as far as the Lions could tell.

3:00Alex Lowe: Played pretty well. Played well, yeah. Did the mixed zone. Did the interview again. Like he did in Canberra. In Canberra. Came through today's session without any obvious mishap, but reported some symptoms, headachy type symptoms. And so they pulled him straight away from the team. and Hugh Jones gets elevated back into the 13 jersey he wore last week, which takes down the number of Irish from 10 in the starting 15 to 9. And there are plenty of other interesting selections, but we should just discuss. Andy Farrell talked about how unselfish a decision it was. If you think that you're over here, you know you're in the test team to play in front of 90 ,000 at the MCG, your family have all come over, and you kind of have this headachy symptom at the end of training, to have the presence of mind and courage, really, to pull out when every part of you would have wanted to play, for yourself and for your family.

3:54Alex Lowe: It's a really tough decision to have to make, and fair play to him for doing it.

3:58Alfie Reynolds: It's really impressive, isn't it? I mean, there's been plenty of times where the coaches have left it to the absolute last minute to make sure that someone is available to play with a concussion lingering, and we've criticised them for it. So when they've done it the opposite way, we should credit them, shouldn't we? really, and say, well done, Gary Ringrose and the Lions medics and everything for pulling the guy out when he should have done.

4:20Alex Lowe: But such a... Because we had a lovely chat with Marrow, with Oli Chesson, which will also appear in the website, in the paper over the next couple of days. But they were talking up this contest, this test, this opportunity, just the size of it, the scale of it, the intensity that they want to bring. It's everything, massive. Oli Chesson has not been on Lions Tour. He's played in a World Cup semi-final. and he's like this is different to anything and it was properly kind of spine tingling type conversations because we all love these huge events so for to know that that was within your grasp and to have and to voluntarily back out because you know that there's actually something bigger even than the second test of a Lions series is it's tough but it's the right decision

5:04Alfie Reynolds: and he might never play a test for the Lions this is his first tour he was picked as pulled out he might now not be clear enough from concussion symptoms for next week in Sydney so incredible

5:17Alex Lowe: decision to make but the right one Slotty I don't think he can be can he 12 days from now yeah that's it does he definitely have 12 days again well he's just been he's just had a concussion so 12 days

5:26Owen Slot: he's just he's suffering symptoms again so I don't know if he starts again but I would have thought it would be probably unlikely that he would play from a medical point of view I mean And in the sort of the long history of rugby trying to understand concussion, what to do with it, it feels like a line in the sand or a bit of a chapter, you know, the Gary Ringrose story. I wonder if the same thing, so 15 players in the team, I wonder if 15 of them had had a little headache or whatever it was that Ringrose was suffering this morning in training. How many of them would have actually gone and tugged Farrell at the end of training, just when he was walking off and went, look, boss, I'm just not right.

6:06Owen Slot: I mean, how many do you think? I mean, just him or is it possible?

6:09Alfie Reynolds: And also, it's not been very long since we were celebrating knockouts in rugby. So 12 years ago, George Smith and Richard Hibbard whacked each other in the head in the third test. And George Smith came back on the field when he shouldn't have done. And I remember at the time watching it and the commentary was all, what a hero, what a warrior coming back. And that was very soon after that we started getting into HIA protocols and all that sort of thing.

6:34Alex Lowe: I remember watching that and hearing the kind of championing of the hero and watching it going, oh, I don't know. It felt awkward, yeah. I don't like it. Having been in South Africa.

6:42Owen Slot: He came back with the wobbly legs, didn't he? He did, yeah. Yeah. It was obvious it was wrong.

6:46Alex Lowe: Yes. I mean, in South Africa four years earlier for that epic second test where Driscoll got wiped out. What G's was it?

6:53Alfie Reynolds: Oh, 27. 27 G's. By Heinrich Brousseau.

6:58Alex Lowe: Ferocious.

6:58Alfie Reynolds: And Ron Nagara has said since he was concussed for that moment where he took out Fere d 'Aprie in the air. So the Lions has had a history of these horrible incidents happening to these players. And actually Hibbard, on the other side of the George Smith thing, collapsed unconscious during a scrum during that game, having been hit in the head.

7:16Alex Lowe: But the interesting thing about this is that there was a moment towards the end of the Brumbies game where Ringrose was hit and he looked a little unsteady. He carried on for a bit, finished the game. Then he did an interview in the tunnel. We spoke to him and he seemed fine. And it was a delayed onset symptoms. and then you come back, you play a game, the most intense game, physically intense game, that the Lions have had on tour.

7:40Alfie Reynolds: On Tuesday, yeah.

7:41Alex Lowe: On Tuesday, come through it, okay, and then Thursday, lunchtime, you go, well, I'm not feeling right. So we're not talking about these mega 27G hits on Bryno Driscoll.

7:51Alfie Reynolds: Like sub-concussive blows we talk about a lot.

7:53Alex Lowe: It's just there's something that hasn't cleared enough. And, yeah, I think you're right, Sotia. It feels like a pretty significant moment in that story.

8:02Owen Slot: I mean, we can only say probably because we can't look in the future, but he'll probably never be a Lion now. Test Lion. Test Lion, yeah. He probably won't be picked next weekend. How old will he be in four years' time? Mid-30s, yeah. I thought you knew all these things, Will. I can look it up if you want.

8:17Will Kelleher: Whilst Will looks it up, what does it tell us about Andy Farrell and his thoughts around the midfield? So I got a comment on a YouTube video the other day where I said I just had a gut instinct that Andy Farrell would like to go with Aki and Ringrose. It was nothing against Tuopilotu and Hugh Jones, but I got accused of being anti-Scottish.

8:37Alex Lowe: Yeah, I've had that same accusation level at me.

8:39Owen Slot: Alex, you're convinced that this was happening whatever. The decision was to switch out the Scottish pair and put in the Irish pair, regardless of whether Tuopilotu was injured or not.

8:51Alex Lowe: Yeah, because Andy Farrell was asked that question. So Tuopilotu has also got a tight hamstring, but Andy Farrell was... And they sort of played up the tight hamstring element of it Until Andy was asked directly, was it the hamstring that kept Tuipotu out of the game? And he said, not initially. Now, their plan, as I think we all know, was to start the first set with the Irish pair, but couldn't because Ringrose was out, and so Bundy went on the bench. I think the plan was to come into this game with the Irish pair, and now can't because Ringrose is out again. But this time, because I think of the bench ramifications, It's going to be a wet day.

9:32Alex Lowe: Blair Kinghorn is now available. He's a better full-back back three cover than Marcus Smith. They want Blair Kinghorn in the team. Therefore, you need a 10 cover over Farrells in the team.

9:42Alfie Reynolds: Because he covers 12 as well. Therefore, Bundy starts.

9:46Alex Lowe: Because Bundy is the sort of the Jamie Roberts of the 2013 tour. He's the guy that Andy Farrell will always have in his set-up whenever he can. and a lot is on his shoulders in trying to win the physical battle against the Wallabies team who have to show up.

10:02Alfie Reynolds: In their infinite wisdom, the Lions and the Wallabies have done their media today at exactly the same time, so I didn't actually go to the Lions stuff, I went to the Australians, so we'll get onto that in a bit. But just looking at that team on paper, you just go, man, that's incredibly harsh on Tui, Palotto and Jones, isn't it? Like, tight hammy aside, they were good last week. and then it gets into your head the thinking of Andy Farrell's had this team in his head for months hasn't he? And he wanted to go 10 Irish like Gatlin went 10 Welsh in 13 and he hasn't quite been able to do it yet and you're just sort of thinking if you're Jones or Tui Palotu or Marcus Smith you're going have I really had a fair crack at this?

10:42Owen Slot: I'm actually halfway through writing a piece on this at the moment. Great minds. Well because the other side of that is the Jack Morgan story. True. So Jack Morgan, in the Games pre-test, was arguably the informed back rower. I mean, you saw them all, but he was as good as anyone. Don't say that. Tom Curry's going to come round and hurt you. But he didn't even make the bench, and now he's fought his way onto the bench. So that says it is possible to change Farrell's mind. But at the same time, the fact that he's gone back to the Irish centre suggests that it's bloody hard to. And Andrew Porter.

11:17Alfie Reynolds: I don't know, look, swapping the props, we've learnt through the spring box that sometimes it doesn't matter who starts and who ends the game I haven't got a problem with stopping the props I think that almost makes sense wasn't he on the tour

11:27Owen Slot: yeah but last weekend

11:29Alfie Reynolds: and I don't think Porter's been amazing

11:31Will Kelleher: but it's about the bench though there isn't it I think yeah

11:34Owen Slot: Genghis in it he's more of an impact prop than yeah than Porter so I think I'm alright with that one

11:40Will Kelleher: also with 12 do we think that I completely get all the conversations and we've said it plenty of times on this pod throughout the tour Tua Piloto is a more all round 12 than Aki but does Farrell ultimately want the 12 that is the best at getting over the game line yeah which is where Aki is better than Tua Pilotto Tua Pilotto is a more all-round footballer and he can also do that as well but I just think if you say to your 12 get the ball head down over the game line that is Aki and and look uh yeah I agree with that but I think that the sort of

12:08Alfie Reynolds: slightly wider point with all the lists that we've made a few times I think maybe not on the but we have said it on the pod once is do does it actually matter fundamentally because the Lions are better than Australia and probably should win whoever they pick. So tweaks around 12 prop fiddling with the bench is it actually going to make any difference?

12:28Owen Slot: But that's the frustrating thing about this series is you'd like kind of vindication one way or the other. You'd like if the team loses on Saturday then we'll all be able to go oh well you approved wrong but they'll probably win and as you said they'll probably win with the other team. I mean, I know this is all probabilities, but that's why we'll never get an answer to this, I don't think.

12:53Alex Lowe: I'd be interested to know what the dynamic is within the squad right now, because I got accused of being anti-Welsh last week for writing a piece that said... Nearly got the full set, haven't we? Anti-Welsh, anti-Welsh. Because I said Tom Curry was always going to play in the first test, and here's all the reasons why he was always going to play in the first test. Now, if you're part of the squad and you're not involved in either of these games, are you looking at it going as you say, what did I come for?

13:21Owen Slot: Was I sold a pup? When I was given this invitation did I have a proper opportunity to make a test of the team?

13:27Alex Lowe: Yeah, because the pillars of this team seem to have been in place all things being equal from before they came and maybe that's the high performance way of doing it which is their absolute focus on this trip maybe that's the only way you can do it but you then need to keep the other players with you and that's what I'm interested in Marcus Smith, actually, of all the players, his position in this team was known from the day they announced the squad at the O2, because Andy Farrell made it clear he wasn't part of the fly-off conversation, and he was there for his versatility, which immediately puts him into a place where he's filling in holes.

14:06Alex Lowe: And waiting for Kinghorn to cover up the available. In the first test, he was on the bench because he was the only one who could. Because Kinghorn and Hanson weren't ready. Yeah, and so the job now, I mean, these guys have got to stay on tour for two weeks and they've got 10 more days with no games to play. They need to be opposition. There's a lot of talk today about how tight the unit is and how they're genuinely pleased for each other. And I don't doubt that for a second because I think rugby lads, generally put them together, they will bond nicely. But if you're not involved and you know you're not involved and you're now thinking, well, I need the Lions to win the second test so that maybe all those who haven't had a chance get to play the third test.

14:46Alex Lowe: It's quite a hard position. Because if they lose on Saturday, those players will definitely not play in the third test.

14:52Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, so what you're saying is we need to convince the office that we should go on a scouting mission to the Crown Casino and check who's there and whether they've really gone off tour or not.

15:00Alex Lowe: Casino and nightclubs, you might see a few Lions struggling around.

15:02Owen Slot: The theoretical position you've given us of the Lions being 2-0 up and then everyone else getting a sort of we'll feel sorry for you type selection.

15:11Alfie Reynolds: I can't see Andy Farrell doing that

15:13Owen Slot: Farrell's been very clear that we're a high performance and we want to win 3-0 so does that mean that suddenly he gives people who aren't Irish a go I wouldn't

15:25Alex Lowe: he gives them a go but I think if they're 2-0 up they don't need to patch up and roll out Tom Curry for a third week running for example they could start Jack Morgan well in theory

15:36Owen Slot: some players will be beaten up so much that they can't

15:39Alfie Reynolds: It might be a bit like, look, we're spooling on when they might lose on Saturday, but it might be a bit like that bronze game that England played at the World Cup where some guys like Courtney were like, I don't need to play a bronze game. I've done it. That's fine. Whereas quite a lot of others were like, no, I want to win a medal and play. And maybe, I don't know what camp Curry would fall into in that one. But yeah, interesting.

15:58Will Kelleher: I feel like I'm getting the podcast equivalent of beer fear here of let's get to 2-0 when we get there. The Wallabies squad looks a lot stronger this week, which we'll get onto in just a moment. I feel like the Hugh Jones thing as well is an interesting psychology of having played in the first test, played pretty well, not get named in the team, but then end up playing anyway. And it being made public.

16:16Alfie Reynolds: We didn't pick you. Yeah, which is quite interesting.

16:20Will Kelleher: A few other things just to mention. So we said Jack Morgan is part of the squad. He's on the bench. So the Welsh are celebrating. No Ben Earl, which is quite interesting. Ben Earl's had a really good tour so far, I think.

16:30Alex Lowe: Yeah, I thought Ben Earl and Jack Morgan would be on the bench because I don't know if they need four locks in the squad, but they went with four locks or four players who can play lock last week. And they've done the same here with James Ryan coming onto the bench. I feel that I might have gone with Ben Earl and Jack Morgan because just for the pace that they could bring in the last 20, 25 minutes.

16:57Owen Slot: Me too. Again, going back to the last 20 minutes in Brisbane when they went flat, and Ben O was one of the people who was on when they were flat, so maybe he's carrying the cam for it. And that no-arms tackle that was possibly a bit dodgy, wasn't it? Yeah, but you think he's got James Ryan on the bench, or Ben O, who's going to give you more oomph if you need it?

17:17Alfie Reynolds: And I would, look, this is just my opinion. It's not a lot of people might agree, I don't know, but I would say that James Ryan's probably the least in form of the locks. Scott Cummings, since the force game where he had a bit of a shocker, has been great. If, again, you're thinking just on form and tour form, Cummings has had a much better tour than James Wright has. Yes, he has. But he's another trust selection, isn't he?

17:38Alex Lowe: Exactly what I was going to say. With all of these selections, going to Owen Farrell coming out, to Tom Curry being the seven, it's not about what they did on Tuesday or last week. Because if it was about that Blair Kinghorn doesn't get picked, he threw two interceptions and gave away a try. Makes you wonder why we bother doing tour games then, isn't it? Well, that's kind of what I'm saying.

17:58Owen Slot: This conversation, how he's selecting his team, it sort of raises a question on the whole fabric of a Lions tour. It's like, why not just come over for three tests if you've got the test team in mind? That's what we're saying. But I'm saying that Jack Morgan's in, so you can play your way in.

18:14Alex Lowe: But I'm saying that all these selections, and I think it's fair as well, can be about more than what you did last week or even on Tuesday. You know, character is built over time. Reputation is built over time. I trust that on the biggest day, you will be the one that comes out and delivers your very best. You won't be cowed by the opposition or the scale of the challenge or the opportunity.

18:35Owen Slot: You have to take all that stuff into mind, don't you? That's not irrelevant just because it's a lion's tool.

18:40Alex Lowe: No, and it's been, I think, pretty evidently, one of the most relevant factors in selection here. Owen Farrell is on the bench.

18:47Owen Slot: Again, that brings us back to Australia. Is it more relevant here? because the form in warm-up games is not so relevant because the warm-up games haven't been challenging enough. So Jack Morgan might play a blinder, but really what does that mean if flat-track bullies and all that?

19:04Alex Lowe: The challenge hasn't been there. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, and we've used these examples frequently. When Sam Warburton was on our Red Lions pod and talking about his favourite game of the Lions, it was a game he wasn't playing in, but when they beat the Crusaders early in 2017 and it was a stacked Crusaders team, packed with all blacks. The Lions went on 1-12-3 in Christchurch and that set a tone. If you beat that Crusaders team, you didn't lose at home, then you've passed the test as a player and they haven't been tested on this trip. So that's why he's put so much stock in the trust and the people he knows and the reputations they carry with them to perform on that level.

19:44Alfie Reynolds: The one point I wanted to make about, I don't know whether it would have been more relevant if they'd gone 10 Irish or not, but the thing I'm quite interested in is all of this stuff about trusting that they've delivered is interesting around the Leinster and Ireland guys, because there have been massive games where they very much have not delivered against La Rochelle in a couple of finals and a couple of semifinals. And look, they've beaten them in pool stage games more recently, so that's fine. but against Northampton at home in the semi-final they didn't deliver on that day So there should be 11 Northampton players in the team Well no, not saying that but I'm just saying it's look and I'm also thinking back to a conversation I had with Brian O'Driscoll a few months ago about all of this before they'd selected the squad and everything else and he said coaches always revert to what they know Gatlin did it in 13 Farrell will do this it'll be Irish heavy and he predicted that long ago and actually at that point he said but it might be a good political move to make Otoji the captain and this is when Doris was fit, so that you sort of balance out that kind of bias, let's call it.

20:47Alfie Reynolds: But it's just an interesting thing because it's not like the Ireland team. They've been dominant in the Six Nations largely, apart from this year when they came third. But Leinster have not won a lot of stuff. And it's sort of been famous now that they've bottled a lot of big games, isn't it? And look, again, they're not playing the World Cup winning box. They're not playing one of the great all-black teams. They're playing the sixth best team in the world. That's why we'll never find out if this was right or wrong. But that's interesting because, again, it's not like the Welsh lot in 13, where it's like they've just battered a Grand Slam, they've got a track record of playing brilliantly together.

21:23Alfie Reynolds: This Leinster team have not delivered in some quite large games.

21:28Will Kelleher: Interesting. In response to the question of why wouldn't the Lions, if you're not picking on form in the tour games, what's the point in the tour games? I would say because then you end up looking like what the Wallabies look like in the first half of the first test at Suncorp. but they have also named their squad today. Looks a hell of a lot stronger than what we saw in Brisbane. We'll get on to that next.

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23:03Will Kelleher: So, Will, you were at the Wallabies Media today. Team News, Skelton and Valentini both start in the pack. 6-2 split on the bench. Gleeson is back involved as well. Is this an all-out approach to try and combat the Lions' power that they were overwhelmed by last weekend?

23:19Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, and it's one of those funny ones where it looks better on paper than it sounded in the press room. And we'll talk more detail in a sec, but man, Joe Schmidt punctures balloons. He hates hype. Second test of a Lions series, and he's puncturing balloons everywhere he goes, which is a shame for just the selling of the series. But on paper, it looks awesome. Will Skelton's in the mixer. Big Will, 6 '8", 22, 3, 4 stone, whatever you want. It's different in every place you look. Then you've got Rob Valentini at 6, who's 17 stone, 6 '4", for a bit of biff. Champion the crepping, he's gone. He's out, not in the 23.

23:55Owen Slot: Is Valentini's weight more stable than Skelton's? which apparently goes up and down.

23:59Alfie Reynolds: I'm going off Wikipedia. I Googled it earlier to write in my piece. But then Lange Gleeson's on the bench, so it's a 6-2 bench. But the 6-2 was explained away a little bit by Schmidt, who sort of said it wasn't done by... It was sort of done by necessity, not design, because Skelton, Valentini and Gleeson have all recently had injuries, so we're kind of covering them because we're not expecting them all to be able to play 80. And he was asked directly whether he thought Valentini would play 80, and he said, well, he usually does, but probably not this week. So he basically said, I don't really want to go 6-2, but I feel like I have to.

24:30Alfie Reynolds: So it's not quite the fire and brimstone thing that you maybe want it to be. But it's an interesting one because Skelton for us has this unbelievable reputation, doesn't he? As this Champions Cup winner wherever he goes, one of the biggest beasts of the top 14, this superhuman bloke with size 18 feet who's just dominated everywhere. but in Australia he doesn't really have that reputation because he's only got like 40 caps. He kind of comes in and out quite irregularly because they keep changing the rules as to whether he can play. At the World Cup he was captain and did his calf as did Tupu and they just lost all of their power and got knocked out at the World Cup pool stages.

25:09Alfie Reynolds: And he's never really had a really big belting dominant game for Australia. So when we're talking with the Australian journalists they're kind of going like it's funny to us because he hasn't really done all the stuff that you've seen up there, up in Europe. So I hope we see the La Rochelle Saracens version of Will Skelton. And he's been a bit of a Leinster whisperer, hasn't he? He's had a lot of big games against the likes of James Ryan and all those guys. And is very vocal on the ref mic and in their ear about them bottling games and stuff like that. So I hope he comes and fires some stuff up because it could be good fun.

25:43Alfie Reynolds: But otherwise, yeah, if we want to get on to the way Schmidt's approaching this, I find it a bit depressing, I have to say. and look in the first week I thought oh he's being very clever here and he's playing all of this down because he's going to come with this big shock and awe amazing performance in the first test and then when that sort of didn't happen you go oh well what was all that sort of downplaying genial Joe act about and he came in the press room after that first test and started talking about preparing for the rugby championship and oh we've got a difficult set of fixtures because we've got the lines three times and then the spring box twice away and you're kind of going oh right and And then today I gave him the chance to go.

26:23Alfie Reynolds: Well, hey, 90 ,000 MCG, here we go. It's all on the line. We've got to win. Amazing, brilliant. And it's all more about like, oh, well, we're a learning team. We're developing. We're very young in experience. We can't possibly compare ourselves to the Lions. Tom Lyon has got nowhere near as much experience as Finn Russell, so we can't expect much. And we've only been together for four weeks, which the Lions would say we'd kill for four weeks without matches. We've had only three games in nine months, So it's all just learning, learning, learning, learning, learning. And you're going, second test, the Lions, mate.

26:54Alfie Reynolds: What's the thinking here then? I don't get it.

26:57Owen Slot: I actually just don't understand it. It strikes me that... Well, is it what you're saying? There's nothing clever behind that. It's just his personality.

27:04Alfie Reynolds: You say he's a hype vacuum. Are you meant to say the quiet bit out loud? As in, we're not ready. We're not well prepared. We don't think we've got a chance. All our players are so young.

27:14Owen Slot: I suppose the downplaying it bit sort of... If he was saying we're going to come and tear them to pieces, then the easy psychology is... We're going to win the World Cup. Yeah, but the easy psychology then is, oh, that's just going to feed the Lions motivation. If he suggests to the Lions that we're just sleepy Aussies and we'll be ready in a decade's time, then maybe the Lions will come in undercooked. Yeah, I don't know.

27:40Alex Lowe: Surely when you pick a team that's got those athletes in it and 6 '2 bench, you don't say, I've had to pick 6-2 because these guys aren't fit enough. They're all carrying knocks. And you play it down. You don't have to come and go we're going to win by 50 points. You're just going to go what does everyone expect of an Australian sporting team? Look at that team I've picked. Look at the athletes in it. The power in it. The size in it. We've got our backs against the wall because we didn't turn up last week. What would you expect of an Australian team in those circumstances? Because that's what you're going to get.

28:12Alex Lowe: You're going to get a team that comes out and throws everything we have at the Lions because this is a massive occasion.

28:17Will Kelleher: I totally agree. And I feel like there's a way in which he can do it that, as you say, isn't him saying, we're going to go and beat the Lions and making a target for yourself or making yourself look foolish. But there is a way of doing it where you almost galvanise everyone in Australia. And that's the other flip side of this and the way they're approaching it. And what we're hearing about this Lions tour, the start of a golden decade for rugby in Australia that's going to save the sport that has so many challenges. And then you get into the start of the series and the noises and the impressions you get out of the Wallabies camp.

28:45it's like well

28:45Alex Lowe: completely right so we have these press conferences and interviews and we go and talk to people we do it because we want to gain information from them we want to understand what's happening in the camp they do it because it's their platform to get a message out

28:58Alfie Reynolds: and to talk to the fans exactly to the public

29:01Alex Lowe: I haven't phoned Phil War but I'd be fascinated to know what Phil War makes of this sort of resignation low key chat from the Wallabies because this is their as Will said the two events today the team announcements clashed. This is a joint venture that these two teams have, and yet they put it all on at the same time. In America, that would never happen.

29:23Will Kelleher: I think that might have been the Lions changing their time, wasn't it? Yeah, well, they've been doing that.

29:26Alex Lowe: This is a joint venture, yeah. But I just, you know, I don't think they've used the opportunity they have at a time where every conversation you have with people around rugby in this country, they go, we're fighting for our lives here because the NRL is expanding to 20 teams. they're going to sign up more schoolboy players, etc. Rugby Uni doesn't have a foothold in this incredible sporting city. It doesn't have a foothold here anymore. I just find it weird why they wouldn't want to use that platform to send a message to the Aussie sporting public that we are going to be a team that we want you to get behind and be proud of, regardless of what happens at the end of the match.

30:07Owen Slot: I think the fact is Schmidt is not a ticket seller, isn't he? he's not a promoter and Phil Wall his chief executive will have known that and he'll be going well if he can win us a test match or make it exciting then that'll be the way that'll get the Aussie public going

30:22Will Kelleher: Well maybe on that note then if we get back onto the team is this a Wallabies team that is capable of doing that that is capable of levelling up this test series which It looks like it's got a better chance than last week

30:33Alfie Reynolds: Yeah definitely It looks much better on paper doesn't it Yeah

30:35Alex Lowe: So you know the Liners quite well and you wrote about Tom Liner he was trying to play his first test start last week, blind, with zero momentum. He had nobody there who could get that Wallaby seam on the front foot. This team and the units he has around him should give him a better platform to show more of what he can do.

30:57Owen Slot: He should be able to play a bit. I think one of the things there is the weather's going to be pretty crappy and he's a good kicker. He's got a really good boot. And I think that's why he stuck with the scrum half he had done. Jake Gordon. Jake Gordon. There was an expectation from many that he would go for Tate McDermott, who's a sort of more exciting, snipey-running scrum half. But he stuck with Jake Gordon, who's sort of...

31:23Alfie Reynolds: A bit more of a Mike Phillips-y, bigger nine controller.

31:26Owen Slot: Well, he's also box-kicking central. So I think they're going to put a lot up in the air and maybe hope that Sueli is going to catch something. The only area that they were superior on last weekend was in the air, wasn't it? So I think we'll see a fair bit more of that wet day. And yeah, maybe Tom Line will get a chance to do something.

31:46Alfie Reynolds: Without sounding all Delia Smith, I sort of want to give the Wallabies a bit of a like, where are you? Lesby Avenue. Where are they? Turn up. Do something.

31:56Will Kelleher: I should get her scarf, shouldn't I? I wonder if they'll do anything. We were in the pub last night and they were having reruns of the 2013 series. And it was quite noticeable to me that there were loads of big patches of yellow in that, which we haven't seen at all so far. I wonder if there's anything in the works to kind of make it at least feel like a bit more of a home series.

32:13Alfie Reynolds: And it's interesting too, because again, chatting to the Aussie journalists who know far more about the Wallabies than we do, because we were kind of going, well, who behind the scenes, if Joe Schmidt's talking in his very downbeat, genial Joe way in public, who's doing the rabble rousing behind closed doors? And they said, well, sort of no one really. Harry Wilson doesn't seem to talk that much. Joe Schmidt literally said today that he doesn't really talk in the huddles and things like that. He's his captain. Alan Alatoa is meant to be, he's kind of like the big senior figure who drives standards and has a massive amount of respect in the group, but he's probably not a big ranta raver.

32:47Alfie Reynolds: And you don't have to be that. But I wonder who their Ellis Genge figure is, that kind of taking the pulse of the team and firing everyone up thing. And look, we do know that modern sport isn't about Churchillian speeches. and in some ways you're a bit like if they can't find an emotional level we talked about this a bit on tuesday and they can't find a never say die never give up over my dead body spirit when the series is about to go their sports about to die and they've got a world cup here in two years that could go out with a whimper and they can't engage a public in a state that doesn't like union because they're not even trying then you're a bit like well what's the what well do you not want to

33:27Will Kelleher: save yourselves from oblivion I don't know that's the thing for me in that we came onto this tour and the Lions were the favorites and we probably expected them to win but after the first test was thinking back to the World Cup semi-final in 23 England against the Springboks Springboks clearly a better team but England had a plan that they executed brilliantly and emotionally on the night like physically for most of that game until the scrum did what it did later on were absolutely on the same level of the spring box and it was a one-point game and that's what i'm kind of looking at in this series that i'm like yes we look at the teams and you think the lions should probably win but with a coach as savvy as joe schmidt have a game plan you execute brilliantly and emotionally you're on the right level that you can try and stay with the lines and then who knows that was the thing that surprised me about the first test i didn't think we saw any of that oh go alfie i

34:16Alfie Reynolds: love all this carry on i would also be exciting fascinated we've talked about this lot haven't we of we can't possibly get around the millions of fans over here but i wonder what percentage of people who have come and paid their money want to see a good game as opposed to the lions just battering australia because what i've like i reckon most we've had a couple of emails from people on our ruckatthetimes.co.uk of people going can people contact us on ruckatthetimes.co.uk yeah do you want to you can send us an email slotty but there was one of our correspondences was from a few days ago and it was kind of going a lot of the talk that we've had on this podcast is oh I hope the Wallabies turn up and their view was absolutely no way.

34:56Alfie Reynolds: If the Lions are just way better than them and batter them that's brilliant isn't it? And again Alex we were talking about this the other night in an Ashes cricket context absolutely no one would be going oh poor Australia I hope they take a few wickets to make it a game. They just go no just batter them. Just absolutely beat them by an innings and lord it over them and bring them on the pitch afterwards.

35:15Owen Slot: Isn't this just the slightly weird thing about the Lions is that it's supposed to be like pushing water uphill. It's supposed to be so hard that when they actually win a game or a series, for goodness sake, it's like manna from heaven. It's like, wow, we can't believe this. It's so exciting. It's so brilliant. And the rarity factor that it should be is not coming here. You're right. Ashes, you would take 5-0 over 3-2 any day of the week, wouldn't you?

35:41Will Kelleher: It's the same as if the Lions, if we were in New Zealand or South Africa right now and we were looking at it and thinking the Lions had a real chance of winning 3-0, I'd be like, oh, that's amazing. But I think it's just a reflection of where the Wallabies are at the moment, really. In fact, if I was the Wallabies, I'd be putting that up on the dressing room wall as well. What, the Rucks email address? Yeah, or just playing the Ruck in the... It's like an hour-long episode. They're like, get to the good bit, come on.

36:10Alfie Reynolds: But there's no way the Lions would be talking about 3-0 if they were in New Zealand or South Africa. way god imagine in south africa that would be absolute carnage if they started doing that but like no hang on a sec look fast forward eight years henry pollock

36:21Owen Slot: in his in his opening press conference says we're gonna win 3-0 razzy's like the putin dictator who

36:28Alfie Reynolds: just keeps going but um i get but then so without getting into sort of existential crisis about journalism mode is is there also a thing here like slotty we were talking about this walking to the wallabies the other day where it's a weird one isn't it because we spend our lives going God, why can't the Lions win a match and a series? And then they do and we go, oh, we're not that easily. Come on, it's got to be a bit harder than that, hasn't it? It's funny, isn't it? Should we maybe just accept that the Lions are better and if they do win 3-0, just go, well done them, it was brilliant.

36:57Alex Lowe: What more can they do? I mean, it's not their fault that thus far the opposition they've been... I mean, I guess it's their fault in the sense they could have arranged a totally different style of tour and got different teams in to play against. So in that sense, organisationally, maybe it's their fault. But it's not Andy Farrell's fault. It's not the players' fault that they've come up against teams who they are 50 points better than.

37:17Owen Slot: For me, this is really interesting. So at the end of this series, we seem to assume it's going to be 3-0. But say it's 3-0, are we writing, this was historically the greatest Lions of all time, or are we going, they won 3-0, asterisk against the worst opposition they've ever had?

37:35Alex Lowe: I mean, I feel sorry for the players

37:37Owen Slot: that they haven't been given the opportunity to be great Lions, in inverted commas.

37:41Alex Lowe: So it's not, you know, I think it's not, Andy Fowler said earlier in the trip, oh, we can't, we're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't. If we put 50 points on one of the super rugby teams, everyone goes, well, the opposition's not good enough. And if we don't play very well and we win by five, everyone goes, oh, well, the lines weren't very good, were they? And I get it. It's not his fault. His team and his players are here to win and win 3-0. I just think that our observation of it, the context we would provide to it, we'd have to say they won 3-0 but they can't be one of the great teams because they haven't had to beat one of the great teams in order to do it and that goes back to your point Slotty the Lions thing shouldn't work the concept of the Lions works best when they're underdogs they're going out to try and achieve something which is why the drawn series in New Zealand sits up there with one of the great achievements because it was a draw but they're not even supposed to get that close they'd only gone one better than that once ever in New Zealand by winning in 71.

38:41Alex Lowe: So I think the problem is that the team can play as well as they can play and if they win 3-0 then well done to them because what more can they do? It's our job to provide a bit of context to it and go, it's unfortunate that it can't be the best because they haven't beaten the best.

38:57Alfie Reynolds: And look, I never, ever, ever want to stop players telling us their aspirations and going...

39:03Alex Lowe: 100%.

39:05Alfie Reynolds: Saying things like we want to win 3-0. that there's no, why would we ever want them to stop saying things like that that get us nice pieces in the paper? But they just can't be the greatest Lions team ever because the 74 lot played 22 games, won 21 and drew one against South Africa. They are the greatest Lions team ever and that's probably never going to be surpassed.

39:24Will Kelleher: Well, let's see what happens on Saturday. Round it off for us, MCG 85, 90 ,000, we're hoping. It's going to be awesome, isn't it? Look, we've spoken about the Wallabies team news. We've mentioned the weather. the Wallabies will be better this week who knows, let's see what happens

39:39Alex Lowe: Yeah I'm excited, I came here a year ago went to the State of Origin game at the MCG where they had 92 ,000 and it was a neutral game obviously State of Origin is Queensland, New South Wales and we're here in Victoria but it was just the size of the occasion and that stadium is a coliseum when it's full it's a special place to be and it will create a special atmosphere, a special edge I would quite like that I'm going to sound old manny here and I actually mean the opposite we've seen I think Will you've mentioned before that the match production on every match on this tour has been the same the same sort of Coldplay kiss cam thing the same

40:20Alfie Reynolds: Snapchat filters

40:21Alex Lowe: and in a lot of ways the laser show and the lights going off it's all great theatre but it's impacting on the natural atmosphere in the stadium I think it's not really organic I'd like to hear before the game in Brisbane Caxon Street had a better atmosphere where it was just rugby fans together singing all the songs than it was in the stadium because it felt to me like it was just being drowned out a bit. I'd like to just hear the Maru Toji song or whatever other... I don't know if it comes up with any songs now because I didn't have a chance to sing them. I'd like to hear Lions songs echoing around the MCG rather than blasts of Block Party or whatever as much as I might like Block Party.

41:00Alex Lowe: I'm not sure it's going to change.

41:01Alfie Reynolds: Quick admin. Gary Ringrose will be 34 on the next tour there you go so I have looked it up for you

41:07Will Kelleher: and final final thing for the pod as well Slotty and me this morning absolutely wiping the floor with you guys on the panel court the only people we beat were you two thanks Alfie

41:17Owen Slot: I thought these guys would never mention it if this gets edited out you will know

41:22Alfie Reynolds: that Alfie is

41:24Alex Lowe: yeah Alfie's the producer editor and host of this but he can tell a tall tale from the panel court I'll tell you that Well, let me just say this.

41:33Will Kelleher: I felt very bad for you, Slotty, that you had to be part of me this morning. I was enjoying the way it was going.

41:39Alex Lowe: It had a rock showdown, Will and I, against Slotty and Alfie.

41:45Will Kelleher: The light was bad on those courts today, wasn't it?

41:47Alfie Reynolds: It was hard to see the ball. We had a tough morning, didn't we, really? Let's be honest. But I think it's a show of a good partnership that we played badly and still won against these lads.

41:57Alex Lowe: Yeah.

41:58Owen Slot: Yeah, anyway.

41:58Alex Lowe: So if you like the Lions, we're the Wallabies.

42:00Owen Slot: It doesn't matter if you beat us because we're rubbish opposition.

42:03Will Kelleher: We can't be the greatest partnership ever if we're playing you lot. Look, it was a tough morning on tour. That's all I'm saying. But you guys, we wanted to mention it, so we've mentioned it.

42:10Alfie Reynolds: I still haven't had a cake, by the way. No one's listened to this pod from Tuesday at the Pan Pacific Hotel and got me a cake. So should we send it to them? Can't believe it. I genuinely thought you were joking about that cake. I actually asked at front desk what happened to Keller's cake.

42:26Owen Slot: They said they had a message from your girlfriend to not allow any soft bakery or anything to go through to your room.

42:32Will Kelleher: High-performance athlete, high-performance environment. That's maybe why we beat you at Paddle, because it wasn't full of cake. All right, all eyes on the MCG on Saturday. A great occasion, no doubt. Can the Wallabies level up the series, or are the Lions about to go 2-0 up? We will have a podcast for you from the MCG on Saturday night. Thanks very much for listening. If you want to drop us an email, the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. We'll be back with you on Saturday night.

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