Bath are English champions! The 29 year drought is over.

0:00Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions, requires iPhone 11 or later. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough.

0:34It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S.

1:14offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

2:06Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. In the Twickenham sunshine, the fans have gone, the confetti has been cleared away, but Bath have been crowned English champions for the first time in 29 years. I'm Alfie Reynolds. Alongside me, back up in the press box, is Stephen Jones, Stuart Barnes. Gents, how are we doing? relief I think is the word I regard myself as an objective journalist but there are moments when objectivity has to go out the window as you said Alfie I've waited 29 years for my old club to be crowned English champions and by God they made hard work of it when I was playing for Bath we normally found a way to win narrowly when we should have won well because of a fear of failure and we'd go back into the dressing rooms afterwards when we'd won and ironically look at each other and just say never in doubt if ever there was a never in doubt final from a bath perspective or any perspective this was it today i think you've been a bit harder i mean i i didn't expect it to be a dazzled a-thon or anything like that or a or a try fest because the teams know each other so well i actually thought leicester play well in the second half i thought bath did it pretty well um i certainly don't think they were quite as sort of lacking as you say, Stuart.

3:25I remember you winning some games in the distant past, but I always thought the final was always a great game. And also, don't forget that these days, teams cancel each other out. I mean, everybody knows everything about the other team. And it's sometimes the video analysts have the biggest say in the game. I've got to say, Barnsley, that I'm surprised, as I agree with Stephen, that when I look at the scoreboard still up here in the stadium Bath 23 Leicester 21 to me that didn't feel like a two-point game but it always felt to me like Bath were the better side well this was my this is what I mean by the the ironic never in doubt that it's gone so close and you feel that you're the better team and you should win at 27 I was thinking right I know where my copy I know what I'm going to write in my copy now this the narrative is set and I think Steve you'd agree in a final when you get 13 points up in a row.

4:20And Bath was building momentum as well. Yes, yeah. You know, it wasn't like Bristol where they'd come from a long way down. They'd got to 13-7. They'd got to 27. When Pepper, we thought, had scored, I thought that was it. And, you know, never in doubt is, it's not a huge insult. It's a sort of lighthearted take. It's also doffing of one's cap to Leicester because Michael Chek here had them believing at half-time when everything said to me, Barth are in control here. He had them believing they can win, and he got them within three points of doing so. Leicester 8th last year, they've finished narrow runners up in the final.

5:01You know, this is a... Chek is a man who hates losing, right? But this is a final from other perspectives when you could say there were no losers. For Leicester to do what they've done this season and get that close is heroic. for Bath to win it, it was just a matter of, for Christ's sake, get over the line. So credit to Checker and credit to Van Graan. I'm not being a killjoy about the final, but I've invested a lot of emotion over the years with Bath and it just got too tight for me. I think also, though, you mentioned the Pepper try or non-try. That run by Pepper was sensational. He went straight through.

5:38These days, in the old days, you used to miss tackles. People used to miss tackles. In the pro era, Alphie, people don't miss tackles. He went through four of the best tacklers in the game. And had he scored, and sometimes I think, God, a TMO, you've got to go back after a magnificent bit of rugby like that and some piffling semi-knock-on rules it out. Sometimes I think we should do away with the TMO. Sometimes. But, yeah, but look, it was a great try and they would then have been away. and I think Finn Russell would have pretty calmed down and ushered them over for a couple more. I really do.

6:16It was a funny game in some ways, I felt, because at half-time, so Bath were leading by one score and I was thinking, semi-final against Bristol, they were actually losing and they came out 20 minutes blitz and took the game away from Bristol. And I was thinking, first quarter of the second half, first 20 minutes of the second half, was going to be absolutely pivotal. Bath actually won that in terms of the points scored. Leicester didn't score anything, but that didn't end up being the case. I think what you say, Barnsley, credit to Leicester for the way in which they were able to stay in the fight and get so close on an afternoon where I think they'll probably review that and be frustrated with elements of their performance.

6:55Yeah, I don't know about, I thought Leicester aren't that far from being as good as they can be at the moment. They're still a team that are in some form of transition. And this was the Leicester that I used to play against a million years ago, full of guts, pride. Not always very good, but you just couldn't shake them off. And what you say, Alfie, is quite right. 13-7, the shift was with Bath. They got to 27. For a few minutes, we thought they'd got to 27-7. It seemed to have gone. But Bath couldn't then, when that try was disallowed, they couldn't come again with any sort of score. it was Leicester who came back and I was I didn't see that happening because all season it's not that we've talked about Bath's bench and their strength in depth it's not something we've talked about it's a reality.

7:44Bath have got the biggest strongest squad in England and at 20 points to seven even with the disallowed try they were in a position to close it out and maybe it's a reminder having not played in a final for 29 years that when you're at Twickenham or Wembley if it's football and there's a full house and you're playing for your club and people you love and the community you love there's a hell of a pressure to close it down and it's not easy and again maybe that's where never in doubt comes from it's it's once in a blue moon everything clicks and you do a Paris Saint-Germain and be into Milan 5-0 and it's just wonderful they'll never do those players will never have that day again we we did it once Steve if you remember against Gloucester, 48-6.

8:28We never had that day again. Everything was a scrap. And maybe this Bath team next year will have that day. But finals are very, very hard because you're not playing just against an opposition as dogged as Leicester with Chequette organising it. You're playing against your own psychological demons. And they are horrible. You are, but don't forget the final is the final. It means that two teams in any competition have been the two best teams in the final. and so it's not meant to be a 48-6 you know but I just think that now they've done it it's no longer 29 years next year it'll be one year since they won and I think they've got some talent there if Finn Russell stays, Ben Spencer's good I thought Max Ajoma and Cam Redpath in the centre are absolutely outstanding and Muir on the wing can have his days as well I think that if they come next year they'll be more relaxed and I think they'll win more and I think they might have a little bit of a hegemony now over English rugby.

9:33I was going to ask you that. It's easy, isn't it, after a final to think, well, this is the team that are going to go on and do amazing things and I probably felt that a bit with Northampton last year but there is something about this Bath team, isn't there, Barnsley? When you look at the strength and depth that they have, you can't see too many teams being able... I'll rephrase it. I was going to say you can't see too many teams competing with them. Teams clearly can compete with them but do you know what I mean? I mean, Bartholk clearly are in a position where this could be a real platform for them.

9:58When you think signings like Carreras, who can do so much in so many positions, what that does to strengthen the back line and Arundel can give them another dimension. Because I thought Joe Thokunasinghe has been OK in parts disappointing today. They've addressed areas where they can improve their game and they should be stronger there. But, you know, Northampton, for example, they're not finished. Northampton, they had injuries, they lost some key players England internationals affected them and they didn't handle the psychology of being England's champions very well they didn't, they don't like being reminded of that in Northampton they sort of say we had all these other things but they're excuses because when you're the champions you've got to behave like champions and you've got to win like champions and that means you just keep going and Northampton couldn't do that this year but if you look at their performances in Europe, their winning Leinster, their final performance against Bordeaux, immediately now, in the wake of Bath winning here at Twickenham, they've got a serious rival in Northampton and I would be shocked if Saracens didn't come back.

11:06You know, there are 10 teams in the league, it's way too few, but there are three or four who will be good enough to push Bath all the way. And from a Leicester point of view, Steve, I suppose it's funny, isn't it? We've got Dan Cole, who we've come on to actually. Ben Young's retiring, Montosja leaving the club. Michael Chekka is going. I think maybe what they proved today is actually this is a great experience for the players that are still sticking around. But is there more uncertainty with Leicester and kind of where they go from this final? Yeah, I think Montosja is one of the great leaders that there's ever been in the game.

11:40And I think him going is something. I think that Dan Cole and Ben Youngs have been magnificent, but I think it is time to cast them out and get on with your lives because a bit like Danny Care, it's like hanging around like Banquo's ghost all the time, isn't it? I mean, I'm not knocking the players, but sometimes when they're not going to contribute and they're on a lap of honour, you're better off saying, well, move on, we'll give you a testimonial or something like that. I think the Tigers will have to be very, very careful next year. They've got a new coach. They've got James O 'Connor, who is apparently joining, and was not a success when we saw him last four years ago, was he?

12:26In the Lions. Well, actually, Steve, I think that was in 2013. Time flies. OK, well, he's now 48 years old. He's 48 years old, and if you remember that time, we went to watch the Aussies in a training session, and he said, there's a bloke called Barnes, where is he? And they were doing boxing practice. He said, I want to use him in the boxing gym because I kept saying, if Australia pick him at fly half, they have no chance of winning the series. And had it not been for an inept second test by the Lions, it would have been 3-0, as Steve says. The other thing is, we gave O 'Connor the address of that place and he never went to see you.

13:02We gave him the address. He backed down, Steve. No, no, that's all I heard. Naturally. I heard when he came in, you sprinted out the window. Well, sprinting? No, sorry. Well, not to open this can of worms then, but I saw the other day actually Quaid Cooper, with his column that he's doing in Australia, was backing James O 'Connor to start the test against the Lions this summer. We don't necessarily need to go down that route, but to throw it back to 2013. Fair play. Quaid and James O 'Connor, they're almost like Ben Youngs and Dan Cole, where they've been retiring for about 25 years. Yeah, they have.

13:35To be fair, look, I hear what you're saying with Ben Youngs and Dan Cole, two unbelievable servants of English rugby. Can we mention Dan Cole, actually? Because that was a big talking point. And I think Michael Chekka and Leicester weren't best pleased with the yellow card that he picked up. I'm not saying it decided the game. And actually, Leicester still gave themselves a shot, even with Dan Cole yellow carded. But to me, it looks harsh, that decision, the yellow card. Well, the ball has left Finn Russell's boot, clearly. and we're not talking about the curse of television, super, super slow replays that make everything look like an attempted murder.

14:09We're talking about watching it here in real time and you could see Cole and, you know, things don't happen quickly with Dan Cole. So you could see what's going on. He's in the air, he turns his shoulder and he catches him pretty high. Now, I think it's debatable whether it's yellow or not, but it's a penalty. And what decided that game wasn't the nature of a card. it was the three points that put Bath nine ahead and kept them away from Leicester. I mean, it's all well and good saying it's bad officiating. What he should be saying, it's bloody awful play by my man. And Dan Cole, it's all well and good saying he's a wonderful servant to England, but he's just let his 22 teammates down on the day by doing something really daft.

14:51Now, no one in this country will say Dan Cole's just been stupid. They'll say what a great career, has been a good career, but he's still done something stupid. It doesn't matter whether you're 18 years of age or 38. If you make a cock-up, you make a cock-up, Steve. Of course you do. Also, he's not an athlete. Anyone would say that. I mean, I'm not an athlete either, but Dan Cole's not an athlete, Alfie. And frankly, for Dan Cole, he really had to work hard to get there to attack Finn Russell. And actually, I may be a bit over the top here, but I thought the only question was, was it yellow or red?

15:26So I didn't think it was a penalty. See, where I do agree with you is I don't think you put yourself in that position. I think if you're down cold, then you don't even need to try and charge it down. And I agree you've put yourself in a position that could have big repercussions. But he didn't try and charge it. That's the point, Alfie, and that's why a card was given. He didn't try and charge it down. He jumped in the air and he targeted Finn Russell. And you could see where we're sitting here quite clearly. It was just mindless. It was cheap and petty. It was almost like an old England international against an old Scottish player, an old Leicester player against a Bath player let's give him a little tap Can we just say something about Finn Alfie?

16:04Absolutely Finn Russell he's had his ups and downs, he didn't react very well to authority of Gregor Townsend but he won that battle and I just think that we were very very lucky to have had him in the Premiership this year, I think he's not infallible but he's really watchable, I think he's clever I think he's a kind of a larrikin, if that's not meant to be insulting. But some of the things he did today, little breaks, little chips, put Max Lajelmo through. Some of the things he did, I thought were absolutely superb. And he has really refreshed the whole premiership for me. Steve, when you say larrikin, I know exactly what you mean.

16:46He's got that sort of cocky little stride and he's got a strut and he's cheeky. But that's his image. the real Finn Russell is the mastermind of Bath and all the talk of Bath strength in depth and all those forwards we've got if they don't have Finn Russell at the moment they don't have someone to change the point of what they're trying to do and it makes Bath a little bit like Ireland in that Ireland have these fantastic structures and strength in depth and brilliant players but Jonesy earlier was talking about the analysts and they become key men So the analysts watch Ireland, the analysts watch Bath, and they go, do you know what, it's going to be hard, but we know exactly what they're going to do.

17:28And that's why someone like James Lowe in Ireland is so important, because he's different, you can't mark him out. And Finn Russell is in the seminal position of all decision makers, and he's doing something different. Without him, Johan van Graam, remember he came from Munster with a reputation of being a good coach, but quite a stereotypical South African coach. So you can say the coaches have made Russell better but I think you say Russell's made the coaches better and in the process, Bath as well. And I'm totally with Steve. I think Finn Russell, with Bath crowned champions of England, a Bath man should be the Gallagher prom player of the season.

18:08He's already on brand. It's Russell. He's the player of the year and he will be the Lions 10th. I absolutely agree. I thought Finn Russell was outstanding. And actually, I was thinking today that last time I saw Finn Russell play here in the Six Nations and the missed kicks. And I had question marks over him of whether from the tee, whether whether he was that kind of clutch guy. And there are plenty of people that told me at the time that I was wrong. And maybe I was. We had a piece in the Times this week that he's improved and changed his kicking off the back of that display. I thought Finn Russell was excellent today.

18:39I absolutely agree with both of you that right now he is the Lions 10. I think he will be the Lions 10. Steve Barnsey mentions it there though Johan van Graan I mean Bath have had a good squad plenty of times before and done absolutely nothing and he's the guy that's come in and delivered them success He has and he's got a great background but I think he's come in he said right tell you what you're going to do I'm from South Africa he may not even have said it out loud or he may have just thought it I want to get two huge tight head props who can both start and both come on the sub and he did he's finally got Will the English tight head to play and Thomas de Toit is a great player.

19:17That's where you start. Now, England have had nowhere remotely like Thomas de Toit for 20 years. They believed all the Kiwi stuff about all England, all you care about is scrimmaging. They don't care enough about scrimmaging and Johan van Graam does care about scrimmaging. And I think putting him there and then having Finn Russell organising the play and a really, really fine scrum half and leader in Ben Spencer. Ben Spencer may not be Gareth Edwards, but on some occasions he's so effective. I think your halfbacks and your tight-head props is the start of any great club team. And add into that Lee Blackett as well with picking him up as a coach.

19:57Absolutely. Blackett was a very fine coach as a wasp attack coach. He's been a good head coach. He's been around. He's learnt things in the URC with the Scarlets. He's probably looking at him now. Bartholomew has probably got the best head coach and the best attacking coach around. especially with Michael Checker going because again, you know, Bath have won the whole thing but they had a much stronger squad and a stronger deck of cards than Leicester had and Checker's got very close to pulling off a masterstroke. So, you know, Checker's lost but to me he's going back to Australia a winner. We mentioned Finn Russell.

20:33Can I just have a word on Andre Pollard? England fans must be watching it and thinking they've seen him be so unbelievably clutch in back-to-back World Cups in a final and a semi-final. and actually in the playoffs this year we've seen him not be great off the tee throw an intercept Barnsley where he just wasn't even looking when you watch the replays he just wasn't looking chucked the pass and Finn Russell read it really well but you're thinking of Andre Pollard and I'm thinking of the guy I've seen for South Africa and I just haven't seen that in this playoff series well that sort of summed up the game didn't it Russell was the better of the two and you're thinking if Leicester are going to win they've got a man for the big occasion and there's no doubt about that he's been a key man in two World Cup finals and he came into this game I was at Sale last week, he kicked really poorly, it looked like he had a back injury and I just thought he's not playing well but you know two minutes from the end when Barth are trying to hold on to the ball 45 metres from their own post and I'm watching it and I'm thinking dear God please Ben Spencer boot that ball 50 metres long because you're going to get penalised in a position where there's no one on this bloody earth who can kick a 45 minute touch liner except him and thankfully from a Bath perspective he didn't get that position because he missed one before Russell kicked beautifully stroked the ball very well but the thing about Pollard is it's not even that he's a big match player he's a big moment player Steve because he doesn't look like the best player in the world he hasn't looked that way for a long time then he gets that moment that kick which no one can get and he nails it and you know he's going to nail it I agree with that totally but one thing is Alvi with him look he's great with the box he's not great for Leicester but at least when you have him there you know where you stand you know what he can do what he can't do now they've got to change the fly half and they will have to change the way they play as well so the coach is going to have to be very clever in A who's coming in as 10 and who's going to be the backup 10 and how we're going to play because too much of it revolves around Pollard But what's interesting there is it may revolve around Pollard, but Pollard's not an egotistical sort of fly half.

22:46It revolves around his boot and the kicking game and the odd offload. But he is a structured 10. And whilst we may not have seen it all the time on the pitch during matches, you can bet your bottom dollar a bloke who's won two World Cups with a spring box has had a major influence helping Leicester gain some sort of structure. now they're losing him and James O 'Connor who's is coming in and James is a very it was a magnificent fullback and a brilliant winger but he has always been a jack-in-the-box fly half and the last thing Leicester want is a fly half to come along and and just try all sorts of tricks it'll send them back down from whence they came if they do that

23:55Apple Watch Series 12 Intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor, or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance.

24:33Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S. offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now.

25:13That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Grainger knows if you're a procurement manager at an industrial manufacturing facility, you're balancing inventory and budget while sourcing critical supplies across the operation. Too much inventory? Costs climb. Too little? Production slows. Grainger's$2 billion in on-hand inventory helps you get what you need when you need it, so you can help keep budgets balanced and lines moving. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

25:56Do you think they were wrong to kick it away with a minute left? I get you can't go through a game with an absolute tooth comb and it's not just one moment, but I thought it was bizarre that they decided to kick the ball back with about 60 seconds left. I heard Ben Kay almost swallowing his nose when they're happy, so they can't believe they did that. Are we talking about Ben Young? Sorry? Are we talking about Ben Young's booting it with a minute to go? Yeah, so it was 60 seconds left when they kicked it back to them. But again, we talk about legends for England and great servants. How many times, watching England, Steve, have we said, why the hell has Ben Youngs kicked that ball away at this time?

26:32We spent our lives going grey watching it. Especially because when he first came in, you and I used to go along and say, right, Ben Youngs is playing today. He's brilliant on the break. Yeah, watch out for him around the fringes. But then that's all gone, you know. It's all gone. for Bath Steve we've mentioned it already but a real platform here you feel? A real platform for them to build upon? Massively they've got the resources, they've got the great training camp, now it's bricks and mortar, I think I was six when Bath put in their first bid to rebuild the wreck and there's been about 45 different attempts in St Stuart am I right?

27:13Yeah. And when you look at the wreck it's very endearing the crowd are great there but if you look at it it's like a Meccano set has gone wrong now they've been I we understand now they have they can push ahead slowly but they can rebuild the stadium if they rebuild the stadium they go up from say 14 ,000 to 20 ,000 but not only that they'll be able to charge more they'll be able to charge more for corporate they'll have far more money and be far better balanced and I think they could be on the way to being almost the new Toulouse. Brilliant stadium which will fit in with the surroundings there.

27:52Much more money, may not even need Bruce Craig's millions. I think the next thing is they've got to sort out the ground, play on a beautiful service in a beautiful stadium and then they can chase Toulouse. It's interesting that Steve mentions that because all those years ago we used to play prototype European tournaments with sort of Breve, Toulouse, Neath and Bath, champions of their countries. And we would train with Toulouse. Pierre Villeproix would work with the backs and Toulouse forwards would work with Jack Rowell. And we'd go away and we would be saying, we want to be, as a club, we want to be Toulouse because we could beat them on the field.

28:30But over the years, Toulouse had this magnificent culture and this stadium and this support base that meant they would always be winning European trophies and Bath wouldn't. And Bath lost their way, but that was always the plan. And so to hear Steve say that, I thought, dare I say it, Steve, that's very sharp, and I think that's the Bath... Don't sound so surprised. No, I'm not surprised. I think that's the Bath target, but what I would say is I don't think that next year necessarily means... First of all, what have Bath got to do? They've got to get smashed out of their minds tonight and have one of the great nights.

29:05That's the first thing. And preferably do the same tomorrow. Thereafter, I think they've got to cement themselves at the top of the English game. That's the next thing they do. That's what Saracens did. And Saracens found a way to get a back row that could be competitive and fight at the breakdown. And then they became European champions. But if you target Europe before you target defending your own crown, you end up like Northampton. and brave as Northampton were, when they lost to Bordeaux, their season was a bit of a disaster because they hadn't won the European Cup and they'd finished eighth with all those players, eighth.

29:45And Bath this year targeted the English title. They were ruthless. They knew. They went to Italy and they were quite happy to lose to Benetton. They're quite happy. They knew where they wanted to go and they've got there. It was Twickenham today. and they've won. But it would be a mistake for them now to say, right, we've got a couple more players. They've got a couple more and they can be competitive, but their priority has to be as it was this season. This year was about winning the English crown. Next year is about defending it. Then they start thinking packed houses, huge amounts of revenue coming in.

30:22Everyone wants to play for Bath because they're the Toulouse of England. Then you say, right, now after all those years, mucking it in with Toulouse, We're ready to go for them. Just how special is it, though, Stuart? I mean, what does this title mean to the city, to the club? We spoke about 29 years at the top. You saw it today. I reckon it was, what, 60%, 70 % Bath fans in here today? It was an amazing moment for the club. There's 80 ,000 people live in Bath. We're very fortunate in that Bath City are a good but amateur team. So everything is rugby. Notwithstanding what Steve has said, The location of the stadium is such that it lures people from all over the world and it keeps people coming locally to support Bath.

31:05To do what they've done for the last 25 years, i.e. be quite as crap as they've been for most of that time, yet maintain that level of support is incredible. And what does it mean? It means an awful lot for the players. It means a lot for management and the business behind it. But I would say, as someone who's been around a long... I had black hair when I joined Bath from Bristol in 1985. I would say my greatest joy about today is for Bath supporters. They've gone through periods where Stuart Hooper has taught the biggest load of baloney I ever heard in my life. As Bath played by numbers, they embarrassed themselves.

31:50Van Gramer's come in, he's changed the club. He gave them reason to be proud getting to the final last year. They've gone on the next step. These are people who have seen Bath through thin and thin. And they're back at Twickenham now and they've won. And I'm so happy for people. A lot of them are close friends of mine. A lot of them are people you walk around the streets of Bath, you pop into the bookshops and they'll be saying, can't believe it. Steve knows. Steve spent plenty of time in Bath. the supporters are going to have a fantastic time. And it's got nothing to do with me. I'm just a journalist who used to play for Bath.

32:31But if I was linked to Bath, I would dedicate this win to the crowd. Absolutely. There's another thing about Bath, Alfie. Stuart's Bath team were very, very far from the sort of goody boys or we're all together. They were a bunch of stroppy, something can be B, lot, they were a stroppy lot and they used to fight against each other and all that, anyway you think well, as soon as that ended, they must have all scattered in all directions but recently, you and I had lunch with Jeremy Guscott and Nick Kane and we found out that you just had a reunion of your team and everyone was there, absolutely everyone, even the reserves were there and that for me, that's Bath for you?

33:20Because I don't think you didn't sort of, you weren't as unfriendly as you made out, but you could be unfriendly. We had volatile moments. Yes, you did, you did. But now you're all together again, and these guys will be together in 20 years' time reminiscing about this, and that's why Bath's a great rugby city. When Steve said even the substitutes were turning up for these things they call the legends, which my old mate John Hall, who's president, does a great job putting together. It's not even substitutes. It's because the thing about that generation was the third team, the Spartans, and the second team, the United, the blokes who didn't get the glory, who didn't play Twickenham on days like this, didn't get selected to play international rugby off the back of what Bath were doing.

34:09They were the core of the club. Our training ground at a place called Lambridge, we knew we couldn't do what we did if the second and the third team weren't putting everything in. And so Steve's right. On the face of it, we were a very stroppy bunch of argumentative so-and-sos. But we had a passion for one another. And I can remember the late, great Jack Rowell used to say to the second, third team, he'd slate them during training and we'd just be having our cup of tea and you'd see Jack Rowell just putting his hand on the shoulder of a second teamer. he'd nod and say, you were good in a training session.

34:48Which reminds me, there's one other person, one other dedication of this cup, and that is my great mate, all our great mate, Jack Rowell, the king of the strop, the greatest coach English club rugby has ever seen. Jack passed away this year. He would have loved nothing more than to see Bath lift the crown. Absolutely. He used to exit the ground because he couldn't stand it. couldn't stand the tension. Alfie, you've asked us a lot of questions and we'll ask you one. Where does that stand in the finals you've seen today? Because I'm still trying to work it out in my own mind. Good question. I think it wasn't a classic.

35:27I thought the first half in particular was actually quite messy. We dropped balls and no one could get too much actually going in terms of free-flowing rugby. But I love the fact that it's still a two-point game. was a nail-biter right up to the end. As we've said, I give huge credit to Leicester, who I didn't actually think were that great, but that almost sums them up this year in that they haven't necessarily always been the most entertaining team, but boy, have they made a fight of it. They got themselves second in the league in a home semi-final. They got themselves to Twickenham, and they got themselves two points away from Bath on the day.

35:59So I thought they made a real fight of it. Yeah, I mean, you guys have seen more finals than me, certainly not the best one, but actually it was one of the reflections that I had. is it's so often a great day, isn't it? I mean, it's a great day anyway. It's sold out again. I feel like we tend to get pretty good premiership finals, don't we? We do. And I suppose we're now sitting here in quiet or semi-quiet. The game's long gone and we're assessing it. Everybody else who's in the 80 ,000 has gone out drinking and having a few drinks with their mates and whatever or going home and sitting in the thing and, blimey, I had a great day today.

36:36so you know not everyone is saying was it a great game or was it not or were Bath great or were they not they just loved it and the people winning and losing is all the final is about Bath fans won't say oh we didn't play that well did we not there will be no talk about it they beat Leicester their rivalry that's all that matters in the same way that you can be playing halfway through the season and you're not playing well and your coach says look we've got to sort this out and this out otherwise we're going to start losing because we keep doing it this is end game This is a final. And 31 years ago, I was sitting opposite where we are now in the press box, in the changing rooms afterwards, and I did not give a damn how we had played.

37:17We didn't say until three weeks later, one day we're going to play well in the finals. All that mattered was we had a bottle of champagne, we had a bottle of red, we had a couple of beers, we were trying to drink them all in about five minutes each. All that mattered was we'd won. And that's it. And it's the FA Cup, it's the European Cup, it's any sport, it's any tournament. That's all that matters. And actually, if we wind the clocks back 12 months, I remember being pitchside at the end of that game and speaking to Sam Vestey and saying the best teams win things when they're not at their best and him kind of laughing and saying, well, we put that to the test today.

37:52And maybe that's an element for Bath as well. They weren't necessarily at their best, but they found a way to get the job done. Because I've been, I was a player at a reasonable level. When you move away, you look at things differently. And I sometimes look at rugby like the pursuit for perfection. And you and I, Steve, have had our disagreements on this because I'm always saying... Let's not bring Marcus into this. I'm always saying, to be a great team, you've got to develop. And Steve will always say, to be a great team, you've got to win. And when you get to days like this, there's no question that Steve's perception is absolutely right there.

38:31The days of development have gone. And maybe there is something that I look back thinking we didn't quite do what we could have done. Yet we did win. Steve was reporting. And we were winning the league and the cup every damn year. Yeah, but never with a lack of class either. Some of the games weren't that great. But, you know, it was just so important. They were important. The cup final was massive then. It was massive. So, you know, I don't think I ever said, oh this is a terrible game it's the final, as simple as that Final one for you lads, which actually may be more is a kind of broader one on where the Premiership is, off the back of a season I think has been excellent, but Bath are the sixth different champion in six years, I've been trying to work out this week, what does that tell us about where the Premiership is at the moment?

39:21I think it's essentially a weakness Great leagues have to have two or three teams dominating and somebody coming from somewhere off the pace to challenge and join them. That's what you get. That's what Toulouse, Toulon, La Rochelle and Bordeaux coming up. You need a couple of teams being chased. I don't think having, be it 12 or 10 teams, having six different winners is very healthy. And I think what we need is Bath, Northampton, Leicester and Saracens and Harlequins to be right up there. Four teams that are mightily powerful. And it would help England as well, because when you look at the England team, what you're getting, you're getting two from here, two from there, two from everywhere.

40:10So whereas France has a shape and structure to Toulouse and Bordeaux, England, Steve Borthwick, and I don't always defend him, he has to go all the way back to the start again. I agree. I agree. And also, Martin Johnson said to me once that when he was England manager, it didn't work out very well. He said, if you're going to be a great England coach or manager, you need four really strong clubs. I remember him saying, we've only got three. It was Leicester, some and so, and then someone was close up. You need four, but that's for the elite end. I'm totally convinced that ten clubs is not enough.

40:47It's got to be joined up with Division 2. I don't care about relegation. I do care about relegation. I don't care if someone gets relegated. If you've messed up your business, your core business, you should go down. They should link up with Division 1 and Division 2 and Division 3 and have 12 teams, maybe 14, maybe 16 in two groups. But you can't go on with 10 because it doesn't represent the country and you must have 12 minimum. And they're so terrified with relegation. If they don't want to be relegated, they should leave the league. It's the fundamental question about sport. Is sport the business or is the business sport?

41:29And there can be a lot of money in it, but if you don't like the fact that the business is sport, then take your money out and go elsewhere. And I seriously, you don't want people beholden to billionaires because they're saying, well, it's our money. So we'll do exactly what we want because what we want to do is make sure that 10 clubs only can control this. and this has been a very exciting day. It's been a great day for me and I know it's on ITV television as well as TNT but the viewing figures will not be great. They might be on the rise a little bit but if you're going to get club rugby viewed properly you can't have 10 clubs just saying it's between us.

42:13We go around thinking, isn't it a great league because this is what we do, Alfie or Steve and I, it's what we've been doing for a living for a long time but it's not about getting Stephen Jones or Stuart Barnes interested it's about getting someone else interested and because there's only 10 clubs and none of them are in Cornwall and there's nothing in Kent and there's nothing in Sussex and there's nothing in Birmingham. I think Premiership Rugby would accept that there's still ways to improve but they are improving. The intendances, I think it was they said at the briefing on Monday that 30 sellouts this year from 18 that they are moving in the right direction and as I say, I feel like it's been a really, really good season.

42:50I'm not saying it's perfect and there's clearly room for improvement, but I do feel like, considering where it was, the Premiership is in a decent spot at the moment. It is in a decent spot in some ways. I'll tell you what I'll do, just to sum up my feelings, Alfie. I'll give you two clubs which I think are the most important in England at the moment in terms of going forward. That's Cornish Pirates and Coventry. They can get into the top division and increase investment and give us a global or rather a country-wide league. Ten clubs is ridiculous. It's pathetic. Well, we'll leave it there. What a final, what a season it has been.

43:28The next stop, in fact, when you next hear from us, is going to be in Perth. I fly on Tuesday. I'm going home to edit this and then to pack my bags. Will it be a private plane you're going in or will it be a service plane? Yeah, well, I believe private. You know me, Steve. Direct flight to Perth, the Alfie Express. Yeah, Alphie Express. Exactly. Thank you very much for listening. This has been the Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Steve Barnsey, appreciate it, gents. We will be back with you down under.

44:05Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app. Now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. This is the story of the one. As a shipping manager, he's running the dock, stocking supplies and making sure every order goes out on time.

44:43And Grainger helps him stay prepared. From shipping supplies to PPE to hand tools, he counts on Grainger to keep products moving and trucks rolling. So his operation runs smoothly no matter the shift. Call 1-800-GRAINGER. Click grainger.com or just stop by. Grainger. For the ones who get it done.