Boks vs All Blacks: Does the 4th test count?

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1:54Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Welcome along. I'm Alfie Reynolds and coming up today, the Springboks go 2-1 up against New Zealand in rugby's greatest rivalry. There is a fourth test to come, but does it count? And England have named a training squad Y. The Red Roses are back in action. The Prem Cup started. So as always, lots to get into. To help me go through all of that, we have Charlie Morgan. How are you doing, Charlie?

2:20Elgan: Very well, thanks, pal.

2:21Alfie: Good, good. And Elgin Olderman as well. Elgin?

2:24Elgan: Very well, thank you. How are you doing?

2:25Alfie: I'm very well, thanks. How are we all feeling in our new surroundings, by the way? Shall I start there?

2:29Charlie: Yeah, lovely temperature, seriously polished, yeah.

2:32Alfie: Now, if you're watching on Timesport YouTube page, then you will know or you will certainly notice that we are in a new studio. If you're listening to the audio version of the podcast, then as I've said already, head over to Timesport on YouTube and you can watch us in all our glory. Look, I've teed it up already, lads. I think there is no other place to start here other than South Africa 29, New Zealand 24. Once again, this series has delivered, hasn't it, in that third test? Was that the best match, Charlie, of the three that we've had so far? It's high quality, all of them.

3:01Charlie: I think they've all been really gripping. I think they've all been really different. I think there was, to answer your question at the start, I think there was an air of finality, a decider about this one. And I think that's because the essence of this challenge should be whether a side can go to another country and win a three-test series. I think what's been so, where it's really delivered is, and this is to borrow a point that Alex Lowe made on a WhatsApp group just after the game, is that we had the kind of changes in momentum and the subplots over the course of three matches that you get in Lions series and the things that you really associate with a traditional tour.

3:41Charlie: So, for example, the whole Dave Rennie questioning the legality of springbok scrummaging, guess what? they're still pretty effective and they were certainly rewarded for that. The trophy can be split, so I guess it does count in Baltimore, but it certainly feels like we've taken from it everything that we expected and hoped.

4:02Alfie: Yeah, Alex mentioned that on a previous pod, that the trophy is literally held together by a magnet. So in theory, they can split it, which I actually think is pretty good work for whoever's designed that trophy. Elgin, Charlie's touched on it there. I think a big question after the three tests now that have happened in South Africa, The fourth test is in Baltimore. The teams have travelled over to America. Does the fourth test matter? Or was this really, if we're being honest, all about the three matches in South Africa?

4:27Elgan: The thing I was wondering was, does the series of 30 years ago, the incomparables, will it be like the Ryder Cup, where if you draw the series, you retain it? Because then if New Zealand do get it 2-all, then technically they won it 30 years ago. But I assume this rugby's greatest rivalry era will be a bit like Premier League and it will be sort of pre-2026 and post-2026. But, you know, if the All Blacks do square the series, then I know we've moved on for the basketball England cricket era, but it will feel like a moral victory for them to have won one of the tests in South Africa, to have squared the series overall.

5:00Elgan: I know that they missed out on the history of winning that series in South Africa. So there will be a huge part of them that will think they have lost the series. But the record books at the end of it will show that if it's two all, it's two all and it will go down. You think of that 96 series, of course, they played five tests in total, didn't they? So there were a bit of boundaries blurred then, although New Zealand actually won it 4-1, not 3-1, technically, if you include that one. So if they do win that test, they'll certainly go into the next few months in the World Cup year with a huge, what did you dub it?

5:29Elgan: Was it a renaissance or whatever the term was? And certainly what they've achieved after the struggles of recent years, the Allbacks very much look like they are back, even if it is 3-1 at the end of this. 100%.

5:39Alfie: I think there are clearly positives here to take for the All Blacks. And we'll maybe get on to them. In my opinion, though, it was about the three test matches. I get what we're saying. They can split the trophy. It could end two all. I hope that they go to America and it's a sellout and they make an absolute bucket load of cash, which, let's be honest, is the reason that they're playing that fourth test in Baltimore. But I think this was about the three test matches in South Africa. That was the challenge that New Zealand were facing. Go and win a test series in South Africa. And Charlie, I think the reaction of the players on the weekend spoke to that as well.

6:13Alfie: You could see the emotions at the end. You could see the response from Malcolm Marks when he scored that try and he's thumping the turf. I think they knew that this in many ways, maybe not officially, but I think in a lot of their minds was the decider.

6:24Charlie: I think so. Thumping the turf in the way that Sean Fitzpatrick did at the final whistle in 96 was quite a nice echo. I think before the game, just the tension etched on the faces of every player. It looked like a World Cup final. And to me, yeah, I absolutely had that air of insider about it. I think maybe to look at another sort of layer of nuance, I think how close New Zealand have got. Again, this is to kind of play on your moral victory point. I think how close they've got, the rugby they've played, the pressure that they've put South Africa under, despite, as we'll get into later, having a scrum that was shaky, having a line out that they're having to bail out off the front ball all the time, not being massively convincing in the aerial exchanges.

7:11Charlie: I think that both should give them a bit of hope heading towards the World Cup and actually other nations a little bit of hope heading towards the World Cup. And I know I say that in the knowledge that this wasn't about the World Cup. This was its own entity and a fascinating entity at that. But still, I think if we're reading into the global context of this, which is tempting to do from our point of view.

7:35Alfie: Yeah.

7:35Charlie: I think that's an interesting thread to put up.

7:37Alfie: Well, let's do that then, because we can come on to the Springboks, as we've got on to New Zealand. We were messaging over the weekend, Charlie, and I think the point you've just raised there is a really critical one here, Elgin, in that New Zealand have been absolutely dominated at the scrum, as most teams are against the Springboks. Their line-out hasn't functioned well. They were dropping restarts. They lost the aerial battle. And yet we still have this test series, which feels like it has been so, so close. and the Springboks deservedly, I think, lead it 2-1, will come on to them. But that says an awful lot about the All Blacks, doesn't it?

8:07Alfie: That this has been such a close series and yet they've been second best in multiple areas of the game that are so fundamental.

8:13Elgan: Yeah, and we've seen the development in their attacking style of play throughout the first three rounds of the Nations Championship as well, which preceded that game against France, not France's first team, that they only just squeaked at the end. But right from that first match, you saw that they were trying to move the ball so quickly from the off. I think on that occasion, some inaccuracy got them. They were dropping a lot of passes. But we've seen them get more accurate as they've built through the last, what is it now, six tests they've played in total. So that's been, you know, above all else, what you love to see on the rugby field is a sense of variety.

8:46Elgan: And I think in the modern era of bash, bash, bash, some people think it can be a bit too identikit. But the sight of Cam Roygaard taking a tap penalty, you know, 10 metres out from his own try line, Will Jordan making that. I know he made a few errors in the match for making that stunning break as well. You mentioned the things that we can see in a series. The fact that New Zealand have scored perhaps more eye-catching, more tries, and yet a 2-1 down. It makes me think of the 97 Lions tour where South Africa seemed to score way more points and tries overall. But Lions won the series, so they'll say that's all that matters.

9:16Elgan: But in terms of, for the next year, seeing the All Blacks continue with that Mike Blair attack and hopefully be very exciting. And go back to the style of play that people think of the All Blacks playing. it should set it up even more for different teams playing rugby in different ways when it comes to that World Cup.

9:31Alfie: Charlie, are you encouraged by the really impressive attacking game we've seen from the All Blacks? And do you expect them now to be able to layer on those other fundamentals? Or I suppose you could approach it and say, hang on a minute, yes, they're attacking really well, but look at all these areas of the game which actually haven't gone that well for them.

9:49Charlie: Yeah, I think there's personnel, there's a personnel kind of thing there as well. I think if they lost Caleb Clarke on the eve of the series, very kind of solid aerial winger who gives them a bit more punch in the closer exchanges, I think they'll probably want Scott Barrett back and Tomite Williams back to their type five, which clearly bolsters their scrummaging, clearly bolsters their more game. So I just think it's, again, this series was fascinating in itself. However, it's also ratcheted up the intrigue for the World Cup because New Zealand will... Neil Barnes, who's their sort of gnarled assistant, people will know him from.

10:30Charlie: He was a star of one of the Netflix Six Nations documentaries when he was in the quite sweary forwards coach. But he spoke sort of, he said, look, New Zealand have got a... There was a little barb in there about, I'm not sure all of the penalties that we're giving up at set-piece are legit, but hey-ho. But then he also said, look, we're going to have to eat humble pie, be solutions-based, This was the phrase that he used and come back ahead of the World Cup, knowing that they're the areas that New Zealand are going to have to kind of fix. I've thought throughout this series and before it that a fully loaded France would be a brilliant inclusion in a three-test series against actually either of those sides.

11:10Charlie: but I do think that those three it's probably reinforced to me that those three sides there's a little bit of daylight maybe between the rest and the fact that they're all on the same side of the World Cup draw if they win and it goes to form in the pool stages is probably suboptimal but it is what it is

11:27Alfie: and the meltdown about that is already starting by the way over a year out from the World Cup so we can enjoy more of that I had written down here how far ahead of the rest are these two sides and then in brackets It's France the closest to them. Do you agree, Elgin, that those three teams at this moment in time look quite far ahead of the chasing pack?

11:44Elgan: I think so. We've seen Ireland be a bit up and down in recent months, haven't we, where they've had some real lows. But then, like the game at Twickenham, they were able to really ratchet it up and really put a team away. And again, in the summer, we've seen the same thing as well. So there's a lot of question marks about them. England, who knows? There are so many teams that are capable of a performance on the day, but doing it over and over again, no one in quite the same way as the Springboks. Although even the Springboks, as we've seen, they've lost one of these tests. They're not quite as all-powerful, all-dominant as that great All Blacks team was who did two in a row in the 2010s.

12:21Elgan: So on one-off occasions, whether that's France, whether that's the All Blacks, even if it's an island who are right on the top of their money, they can still be done. But undoubtedly, yeah, I think it's probably at the moment. I think we'd need to see a really good Six Nations out of France again to get rid of some of the doubts over their ability to do it over and over again. That game against South Africa on the Friday night in November, like the previous November game where South Africa won with 14 men on the field for most of it, that was a real statement. So this time around, coming back to a Friday night in Paris, that'll be a great fixture to really see where France are on that big occasion again.

12:56Charlie: There are some great Nations Championship games in the autumn to really sort of give us an idea of the pecking order. Ireland, South Africa, as El mentioned, Scotland, New Zealand, England, New Zealand. I think all of those games will give us a really good idea of the lay of the land on the very edge of World Cup year.

13:13Alfie: Yeah, and also in terms of the World Cup, that three-month kind of run into it that so many teams, particularly England, rely upon is a bit of a leveler, isn't it? I mean, I don't think teams can't just rely on that to be able to turn over the box and the All Blacks at the moment, but it's an important thing to remember.

13:27Charlie: I think it's a huge level, and especially if you speak about the people that look into cohesion sort of data and that sort of stuff. For sides that are brought together from multiple clubs, i.e. England and France, they rely on that hugely. And World Cups traditionally are where England kind of have got things together. France having three consecutive quarterfinal exits now is certainly underperformance. But I think Anton Dupont's already spoken about how this feels like a last chance to get that right.

14:01Alfie: Yeah, well, it's bubbling along pretty nicely, isn't it? Now, when I got into the office this morning and started preparing for the pod, I picked up a copy of the Times, went to the rugby pages and saw, can anyone stop the Springboks? Charlie, you've been writing about this. You've been analysing the box and their performance in the third test. The fact they lead this series 2-1. In terms of your analysis, what's so impressive about them at the moment?

14:22Charlie: Well, I think the obvious one and the point that, as I say, Neil Barnes was all over was that the scrum and the mall are just such a consistent way for them to either relieve or impart pressure in games. And the third test felt to me a little bit like the deciding, the third test on Saturday, sorry, in Sueto felt like the third test of the 2021 Lions series. It felt like the closing stages of the World Cup semifinal against England in 2023, where the scrum is such a reliable source of penalties and therefore field position and even points for them. and the Mall, I mean, what an image that was, the sort of the marks try that we've spoken about, a 20-metre march on the diagonal that just broke New Zealand hearts and soul and spirits, really.

15:12Charlie: They were the ones, I think, alongside France that really lobbied for this refereeing directive change around the Mall, and they are the best place to take advantage of that. So those two areas set them up really well. I actually think that they were braver with their ball movement and they attack the best they have in this third test, which is really important because I'm not sure we really saw the influence of Tony Brown over the first two, the attack coach Tony Brown over the first two tests as much as we had this World Cup cycle in totality. But one moment really stood out for me, which was so that they're 12-7 down, I think, or 12-5 down and Kobus Reynak shoots out of the line, tackles Asafa Amua, they get the turnover and they play off that.

15:58Charlie: And that's where Jasper Vese gets the offload to Oxen Che, who passes on to Manny Lebok. And then they get within five, Ruben Love, yellow card, pushover scrum. That was a sequence that kind of married their ambition with the ball with this power that they've got. Manny Lebok, really interesting case. I think he's the 10 that energises a backline best, but they don't seem to trust him with the place kicking. So that's an interesting kind of point, interesting point that they've got to deal with. And then the last point I just want to make about this was a as much as guys like Ethan Hooker stepped up I think Cameron Hannah come is going to be a star for them I think their veterans are just peerless when it comes to the crunch of games and they know how to seize momentum the Jessica real try was the big the big point there when they just gone behind again and in these games of fine margins when you've got a core of players not just one or two leaders a core of players you can sense momentum swings and seize the initiative within those games when the stakes are highest, you're going to do well.

17:02Charlie: A side is going to have to do well to oust them in a knockout game.

17:05Alfie: I mean, they must have learned so much from the experiences that this team have had now. Like Khaleesi, Etzebev, Peter Steff, Jesse Creel, Damien D 'Alende, Chez and Colby, I know he went off. But these guys that have been there for both World Cups, for the Lions Tour victory, and I think we've maybe seen a bit of that in this series and actually something that I think throughout this series, because of the clash of stars, We've often viewed it as New Zealand attacking brilliantly, the Springboks doing the nuts and bolts and being physical and having a great set piece and doing what we're used to seeing them do.

17:33Alfie: But actually, perhaps haven't given enough credit to, maybe not the free-flowing attacking game the Springboks have played, because they haven't really. But actually, and I particularly felt this in that third test, was the way in which they pressed home an advantage when it came their way. And they took their opportunities and they seized control of the game. and after being one down, they've been able to seize control of the Test series. Elgin, what do you reckon?

17:56Elgan: Yeah, I think that ability that Springboks have, like you say, to multiple ways to skin a cat, I think that's what's underpinned them over the past seven years because they, I think, first and foremost go for that up through the middle, up your jumper, we're just going to completely marmalise your approach. But then you think of Aaron, Sir Colby, they've got some of the most exciting backs. Sasha Feinberg and Gomezulu, you know, were the best running tens in the world. So they know that they can fall back on that. I think that's what has underpinned the last seven years. And if they do win the World Cup for a third time in a row, I mentioned the All Blacks team of the 2010s there.

18:31Elgan: It looked inevitable that they would probably win that 2019 one again, didn't it? The way they beat the Springboks in that opening game. And then just England just turned up in that semi-final and stopped it happening. For the previous nine years before that, the All Blacks were probably the most dominant team we've seen in Zassar Rugby. So that's why for all these eulogies about Springboks, we do just have to remember that, yeah, they only have to lose one of those knockout games and it can just end. And I think that's what's going to be so appetising about the World Cup next year. The fact that there's one extra knockout round because of the expansion.

19:06Elgan: Obviously, no one's expected them to lose in the last 16 anytime soon. But I think that is what will be so exciting when those knockouts come round. The fact that in 80 minutes, that entire unprecedented run can just end.

19:17Charlie: And the margins are fine between these top sides. That's a really important point. Saturday was a great example. Will Jordan's clearance from the right edge bobbles a little bit too far in the short dead ball areas of the FNB Stadium. And all of a sudden, it's a scrum. It's a kick to touch. It's a formidable maul that sort of ends the contest. So anything, I think World Cups are totally different beasts, aren't they? and it is really important to sort of just reinforce how fine the margins can be.

19:49Alfie: Yeah, although it's interesting thinking back to 2019, I don't remember that All Blacks team, even though they were back-to-back world champions, being as heavily favoured as I think the Springboks are going to be to win three in a row, which I could be totally forgetting the narrative at the time, but it felt to me like there was maybe a sense that that All Blacks run was coming to an end, whereas you almost feel with this Springboks team, you really don't know if it is, you feel like they could go again. In terms of people, and let's be honest, there will be people out there hoping that the box don't win a third World Cup in a row.

20:18Alfie: What are the positive signs from that point of view, Charlie? What are the challenges that you think, even though this Springbok team that appear to be all conquering, what are the challenges you think that they face moving in the next year or so to that World Cup?

20:29Charlie: I mentioned the first one, which is the draw. It's looking like quite possibly South Africa will have to go through New Zealand in the quarterfinal and then France in the semifinal. and that is brutal for any side of any era, given what those two sides can do. So that's the first one. I would say the second one that is, and this was a really interesting, in his pre-match interview on Saturday, Razia Rasmus admitted that in trying to sort of develop depth, as he has done amazingly well, he may have compromised cohesion a little bit. And that is one reason I would say that and Sasha Feinberg and Mgumzulu coming back for injury are probably two kind of key reasons reasons why the attack didn't look quite as smooth as it did in the first two tests.

21:11Charlie: And then the other point is one that we've made already, is that I think this series will give other nations a chance to really drill into areas that New Zealand did, areas in which New Zealand went well, which clearly their attack and how varied that was, but also how New Zealand managed to stay close despite being inferior, as we say, at the line out, the scrum and in the aerial stuff. So there are very obvious targets for other sides to improve. And the Springboks is a totally different... They are the side that best exemplify everyone's got a plan to get punched in the face, right? So there is scope for sides to develop plans, but they're still going to have to do it.

21:52Alfie: Some small glimmers there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll wait and see. This is the part which I'll probably do multiple times over the next year or so in the run-up to the next World Cup. ask you for a prediction, which is totally unfair and I'm not going to hold you to it. But sitting here right now on the Monday morning after the box have just gone 2-1 up against New Zealand in the greatest rivalry series, do you think the winner of the World Cup comes from these two teams? Which is a ridiculous question to ask, but go on, what do you reckon?

22:20Charlie: You can't say unless it's France because that's what I would say. It's one of those three. It's quite a safe bet to say yes, I would say.

22:28Alfie: At the moment, it looks likely though, right? that's the point of course things could change we've got November internationals we've got a Six Nations campaign teams have got that three month build up into the World Cup

22:37Charlie: can I say it would be South Africa or France I think it's one of those I'll let you sit on the fence but that's fine Elgin

22:42Elgan: I think yes it would be so easy to sit here and go I think a new or a team that hasn't won it as many times has won but by and large New Zealand and South Africa for more than 100 years win rugby games more than anyone else

22:56Alfie: right I'll tell you what we will take a quick break here and then coming up afterwards We're going to chat WXV, the Prem Cup, and Steve Borthwick has named an England squad.

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25:21Alfie: So you may well have noticed on Sunday that Steve Borthwick has named an England squad. You might be thinking why. I think plenty of people probably were. But this is a three-day training camp. So they joined up together on Sunday and then they basically train until Tuesday or midweek and then head home. We can maybe get into the bones of the squad or some of the selections in a second, Charlie. The question that popped into my mind was, is this an example of the PGP, the professional game partnership between the clubs and England and what kind of underpins the game professionally in this country, not working as effectively as it should?

25:57Alfie: Because I look at this and I think with all the clubs in pre-season, with players having been away with England relatively recently, but not necessarily with their clubs, why have a three-day mini training camp now?

26:08Charlie: Well, Steve Borthwick covets time with his players. That's what it's about. And I think the content of what they do is probably the most important thing. They want to hit the ground running in November, clearly. I would say that there's probably a bit of fear around from club supporters, from what I can gather on, I know it's only social media, but there certainly seems to be a sort of, why is this happening? And that is probably, a bit of that is probably because there were injuries, there were injuries last year. Alex Mitchell did a hamstring, didn't he? and was out for a little while because of what they were doing in these camps.

26:43Charlie: It's interesting to not to kind of, you don't want to draw parallels with South Africa all the time, but they use the same terminology, alignment camps. And it was interesting to hear that a lot of the, it's a lot of theory in the South Africa ones. And clearly it's not just theory in the England ones, if that's what's happening with Alex Mitchell. But you would think that it would be reasonably gentle, given that the clubs will be looking after the pre-season schedules of these players as well. So Scrum Half and Hooker are probably positions that Steve Borthwick can not necessarily experiment in, but see how high he can push a ceiling with younger players.

27:21Charlie: Third Hookers don't play a lot at the World Cup, but there would ideally be a sort of a clear candidate there behind Jamie George and Luke Cowandicke and Theo Dan isn't getting these minutes.

27:31Alfie: Which, as we've said before, Theo Dan, we thought was the guy that was going to come through after the next World Cup. and perhaps hasn't. I get what you're saying and perhaps I'm being a little bit harsh here and if you do these sorts of camps well as South Africa have done, then there can be real value in them. But I just look at it at this moment in time and think I'm just not sure how much they're going to get out of it. We'll wait and see. In terms of selection, Elgin, I think probably the headline out of this, I mean, Mara Toje returns as we expect. Elliot Daly is back in. Tobias Elliot as well, one of those younger guys, which I think is quite exciting.

28:02Alfie: But no Courtney Laws. Steve Borthwick has said he basically wants to see what he looks like returning to Prem action with Sale Sharks. He's been at Breiv for two years. He had retired from international rugby. He's come back and is now available again. The smart decision, do you think, from Steve Borthwick to let's at least wait and see how Courtney Laws performs in the Prem?

28:19Elgan: Yeah, well, it was Courtney Laws and Joe Marchant, isn't it, who were the two players that have come back from France and have been told, we're just going to wait and see what's going on rather than parachuting them back in. I wonder if there's something, you know, psychological in that. and I don't know if it's all part of the not wanting players to ever go to France and to stay here and to say, you know, we're not just going to parachute these people back in, we're just going to wait and see how they go. But you'd think if Courtney Law starts the season well, he's been so open that he wants to, even when he was in brief, he was saying, I want to play for the Lions, even while I'm playing in the Prodédeux.

28:50Elgan: You'd think that he'll only need a handful of great performances and he'll be straight back in for one last year, one last hurrah going into a World Cup. and you'd think the same with Joe Marchant as well. There's been so much written about what he can offer to the backline as well, being involved at the last World Cup before he went over to Paris. So I think it's just probably a matter of time before they're both involved, really.

29:15Charlie: I think those two are both being the next one. I don't think they'll have a problem with taking on the information that they need to take on. I think there's a familiarity with the environment. They're both involved in both really key parts of the last World Cup campaign. I think it will take a handful of Prem games and they'll be right in the mix.

29:32Alfie: Yeah, I think you may well be right. And subscribers, keep an eye on the Times online or you can go and pick up a copy of the paper because you may well be hearing from Courtney Laws there fairly shortly. I'll leave that little tidbit there. Shall we get on to the WXV, the Red Roses return to action, Elgin? So the WXV has had its latest iteration. It takes a bit of spinning plates, I think, to keep up with exactly what the format is of the WXV. but the 12 best teams in the world. I looked on the WXV website this morning and it said the best teams will take part in a home and away cross-regional touring WXV Global Series.

30:06Alfie: Elgin, take it away. Explain to me what on earth that is. Enough adjectives in the hands for you.

30:12Elgan: WXV was brought in three years ago after the World Cup in New Zealand to offer a sense of structure to international women's rugby because prior to that, it was just very random. It was women's rugby trying to ride this wave after the Big Eden Park final into a World Cup in England and trying to just provide a semblance of a competition, which we've seen in men's international rugby as well with Nations Championship and the Nations Cup. They've subsequently realised that it's probably a bit too early to expect big crowds to turn up at neutral venues, really, and that you should concentrate your resources in the countries where it's strongest and allow them to organise their own fixtures.

30:49Elgan: So during the last World Cup, they made this announcement that they were pooling together WXV1 and WXV2 into the global series of 12 teams. And they would be at liberty to organize whatever configuration of matches they want up to six. And inevitably, what we can read into that is the Red Roses can now play at home and they can play the best teams in the world away as well. So Canada, who they played in the World Cup final, they'll be playing Canada three times, once in England and twice in Canada. That's been dubbed the rugby rematch tour in the interest of branding and marketing in rugby's greatest rivalry.

31:22Elgan: That's what that's been dubbed. But they'll also be playing the Black Ferns at Twickenham in the third September game, September 26th. And I think if you just look at the figures, the reason why it's good for the game that the teams like England, Canada, New Zealand get to organise and play their own home games, there are going to be more than 50 ,000 people at Twickenham for that Red Roses-Black Ferns game. I don't have the exact numbers, but I think that might be more spectators than attended the entirety of WXV1 combined when it was on neutral soil. So it's throwing up some interesting things like Scotland will be able to face the Black Ferns and Canada at home, which for recent years, you know, the Northern Hemisphere teams haven't had home games outside of the Six Nations.

32:04Elgan: It means that Wales are welcoming the Springboks women to Cardiff on a Friday night and then going on tour to Japan as well. But it also means that France and New Zealand are playing each other four times, once in Lyon and three times in New Zealand in October.

32:17Alfie: So on that point then, it seems overall it's probably a positive. A lot of what you've just said makes sense. Is there any part of it though that because the sides have been given the luxury to organise their own matches, which seems mental to say, by the way, but what we've got here is the four top sides in the world basically disorganising more matches between themselves. So England and Canada play three times, New Zealand and France play four times. Is it too heavily in favour of the big sides?

32:45Elgan: I think based off where the women's international game is right now, where you've got a big one, which is the Red Roses, and then you've got Canada and New Zealand, and then France a bit lower down in four, and then realistically a big gap below that. I think in terms of trying to generate interest, generate record crowd sizes, there's probably going to be a North American standalone rugby attendance record in Ottawa as well, I think, for that England-Canada game. And to put that number in perspective, the current record is only 11 ,000. So there's a long way to go in these figures compared with England getting 60, 70, 80 ,000 to twicken them.

33:21Elgan: But if the intention of WXV1 initially was to have the best against the best, it's now that, but even more. So England, France, Scotland, New Zealand, Australia, and Canada have in effect organised their own mini round-robin autumn campaign, as it were, except in September where they're all just playing each other and then that away series is a bit more, yeah, where do you fancy going? We'll take you on. So in that regard, I think, yeah, like I say, I think just the main thing is in recent years when it hasn't been the women's Six Nations, England haven't played at home. And I think that is probably the defining thing.

33:58Elgan: You know, if they are the driving force of the women's game right now and there just isn't a huge appetite there, except to a degree in England for neutral attendances at games. So it makes sense for France to drive interest at their home games, for Wales and Scotland to have high-profile fixtures that they haven't had in the past, and for the Red Roses to meet Canada and New Zealand over and over again, possibly. But, you know, those are the narratives that it needs.

34:24Alfie: Yeah, and I suppose 50 ,000 at Allianz Stadium for that Black Ferns game is always going to be a good thing. Let's see if it gets any higher than that. It does mean, though, that there's no winner as such, right? Previously in the WXV, you had a winner. This is almost doing the opposite to what the men's autumn games have done, which in the men's, they have tried to structure it so that it is a tournament and you get, well, a winner of the hemisphere, the most dominant hemisphere. This is almost going back to the traditional, just a spate of autumn internationals.

34:51Elgan: Yeah, it flies in the face of the direction of basically all sports are heading right now. But again, I think one of the things that women's rugby has realised in recent years is that it doesn't have to just mirror what the men's game does. So even if they were maybe perhaps forced into this decision by circumstances, by perhaps the Red Roses making it clear that it would be better for the game if they are able to organise three home games and then go to North America for three games as well. Obviously an important time for rugby in North America as well, building up to a men's and a women's World Cup taking place there.

35:26Elgan: So even if there were good intentions in having that neutral venues for the first two WXVs, I think it's good that women's rugby hasn't felt like it just has to keep doing what other sports and perhaps men's sports are doing.

35:41Alfie: And let's hope action on the pitch is what takes over. But a big story, perhaps the biggest story in the build-up to it, is about the smaller ball, right? This was announced a little while ago. I remember speaking about it on the pod before. but they're going to be using a four and a half size ball rather than a size five. I know Helena Rowland, the England back, has been talking about this and isn't convinced that it's basically said that it's going to make her job harder.

36:04Elgan: Yeah, it's an interesting one because there wasn't a huge sort of groundswell of support for happening in the first instance. And certainly Zoe Harrison made headlines a few months ago when she said she thought it was the worst decision anyone had ever made. And that's the England fly half who only found out... A bit of hyperbole there. A bit of hyperbole, but that was the England fly half finding out about it from a journalist's question halfway through the Women's Six Nations, which perhaps says that maybe they weren't made entirely aware and asked for their opinions on the decision when it was brought in.

36:35Elgan: You know, I think the thinking behind it, and it has been trialled elsewhere prior to in WXV, the thinking is that it might improve handling and it might make offloads more ready. But on the opposite side, you think so many of these women have played with a size five ball for basically their entire lives. And Zoe Harrison was one of the best kickers in the world of either gender during the most recent Women's Six Nations, where she couldn't miss for most of the tournament. So you can understand why certain players, especially the Red Roses, who are on a 38-game winning streak, aren't that fussed about changing it.

37:09Elgan: The truth is we don't really know whether it will stick and what people's opinions are of it. because some people like to say Helena Rowland, Zoe Harrison, have spoken out against it. Other people aren't that fussed about it and they think it's been OK. It weighs the same, but it's 3 % smaller, I think, as the numbers behind the actual size of the ball. But adding to the complexity, when it comes around to the women's Six Nations, they'll be back playing with a size five. Makes total sense.

37:34Alfie: Don't see the problem here. I think the lack of consultation is probably what is irking a lot of the players, isn't it?

37:38Elgan: And I think they will be asked their views after these series of games. So who knows? We'll have a decision maybe after that. But currently, no one fully knows exactly what effect it will have, whether it will encourage people to kick more, whether it will improve people's offloading. The Red Roses might say, we don't want other people to improve their offloading. We're already pretty good at it. And they can do it with a size five ball like we have. So who knows what will happen?

37:59Alfie: They can provide their feedback after it's been experimented with at the elite level. I can see the reason for some complaints. Just before we finish off, Charlie, should we finish off on the Prem Cup, which is never a competition that gets much coverage. It's often struggled really, hasn't it, for where it fits within the calendar. So the big thing here and the standout result from the weekend was Saracen's 96, Northampton 42. My question really is, what is the purpose of the Prem Cup?

38:28Charlie: Well, that's a great question because different sides have different purposes for it. So Northampton, that Northampton size, for a bit of context, they had a lot of, they had three, I think, England under 18 internationals who just got back off the tour of South Africa. And they actually led 28-19 at halftime. What happened after halftime? It was 77 unanswered points after halftime from Saracens, with Angus Hall kicking everything. It was a pretty strong Saracens side. One to watch within that side. Jack Bracken playing at fullback. Really, really athletic, talented winger. But there are two things here.

39:05Charlie: One, the different teams using it for different purposes with differing strengths of sides. So we also had that with Sale and Bath Sale because they haven't had any, I think I'm right in saying, they haven't had any official pre-season games. So their pre-season for their gun players is the Prem Cup. And then the other thing is the context of these dizzying scorelines in the Prem. They have seemed to have got a bit sickly, right? They seem a bit sort of too helter-skelter. And I know it's a league that kind of wants to promote attacking rugby, quick games, big collisions, all that sort of stuff.

39:38Charlie: But we also have to remember that in this part of the world, we sort of ridiculed Super Rugby for being defence optional for a lot. But Super Rugby wasn't producing these scorelines with much regularity. So that's just something to watch, I think, over the course of the domestic season.

39:55Elgan: Can I ask for a prediction? How many times do you think this season we're going to have a gnashing of teeth about too many tries in the Prem? I reckon at least eight times this season. I think there are going to be eight debates this season. There have been too many tries in the Prem.

40:08Charlie: Yeah, we need to wait until everybody forgets about the bonus point thing to bring that back up as a kind of a fresh point and how the French bonus points better and everything. Although there were blowouts in the first weekend of the top 14 as well. Tom Willis, so achingly predictably, played well, scored two tries, topped the carry count, second top of the tackle count as Bordeaux thrashed Racing 92 64-5. So he's returned there. They're pretty happy to have him.

40:38Alfie: Yeah, pretty brutal. By the way, on the subject of too many tries in the English game, Tom Wood did an interview with John Westerby, which you can go and read in the Times Online, where he says he misses a bit of a 6-3 or a good old-fashioned mud bath and where you have to win the arm wrestle. We'll leave it there. I just feel like with the Prem Cup, I just don't know what purpose it serves, really. And I don't know whether they'd be better off just having matches that were designated as pre-season friendlies. Maybe they want it around the structure of the Prem Cup because it makes it slightly easier to sell tickets, even though we know attendance is a way down on what you get for a Prem fixture.

41:13Alfie: So maybe there's a financial incentive for it to remain. But it just always feels to me, I'm not really quite sure what purpose it's serving, other than being a bit of a distraction that doesn't get all that much coverage. But we'll wait and see. Just before we go as well, actually, I will mention that on the 5th of November, Thursday the 5th of November, there is an evening with Lewis Moody. You can head over to thetimes.com forward slash events to grab your tickets. He's going to be chatting to Alex Lowe. Loads to discuss England legend, his diagnosis for MND. So go and get your tickets there.

41:44Alfie: Charlie, Elgin, pleasure. Nice to be in the studio. Absolute pleasure, yeah.

41:48Charlie: Yeah, under the unforgiving lights. I think we've got a decent debut.

41:52Alfie: Ready for the new season yet? Are you getting, like, where are you with the plans for it all kicking off?

41:57Charlie: All over the shop, actually, with plans, yeah. but kind of scurrying around to get some preview features done and getting increasingly excited, actually.

42:06Alfie: Lots of people can be excited about. Elgin, you were hoping to have a trip to Baltimore, which sadly wasn't to be.

42:10Elgan: Sadly, we won't be making it. I'll have a bit of red roses to keep us going before the domestic men's season starts. There'll also be a bit of Ultimate Sevens this weekend, starting in Cardiff. That'll be quite interesting to follow the first three rounds. The latest attempt to try and re-inject life into Sevens. We'll see what goes on there. But yes, it's that weird stage at the moment. last week I was at Merchant Taylor's school watching a game of county cricket in the rain. So that shouldn't really be happening in September, people would say, and rugby's starting slightly later than usual. So, yeah, a weird few weeks it's been, but we'll be back into those lovely Six Nations January sunny Saturdays soon, I'm sure.

42:46Elgan: Absolutely. Elgin's favourite Saturday in the world,

42:49Alfie: as he often reminds us. Pleasure as always, gents. Thank you to all of you for listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

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