Brilliant Bordeaux, but Bath bemused. Was French TV to blame?

0:28Keep your wellness routine going strong all summer. Today's episode of The Ruck is brought to you by Allianz. They've been part of the rugby family for over 13 years now, backing the game at every level from the muddy grassroots pitches to the biggest stages in the sport. And their partnership with the home of England rugby, Allianz Stadium, isn't just about putting a name on the building, it's about backing the future of the game and the generations still to come. We're proud to have them on board. Let's get into it.

1:12Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Welcome along. We're back in studio. My name's Alfie Reynolds. And alongside me to dissect the semifinals in the Champions Cup to look ahead to the Prem action coming up this weekend is Charlie Morgan. Hi Charlie. Hello pal. And Will Kelleher, fresh from a trip to Bordeaux Will. Yeah, I've flown and I'm flying. I've had two coffees, I've been to Lyon because the cafeteria upstairs was closed, brutal. Bank holiday. Bank holiday Monday. Lyon the restaurant. Yeah, yeah. I've been to Bordeaux and then to Lyon, the like fast food chain, not Lyon the city.

1:45Okay, with you. And your flight this morning was? 7am. So you were up at? Well, we all know what this is like. You've set your alarm for 4.45 and your brain every hour goes, oh, remember to wake up, mate. And so then you actually don't sleep. But I can't complain because going to watch Bordeaux play at the moment at that stadium, I know I appreciate it's the football ground, but with that crowd, that atmosphere, even with a delay and quite random weather was epic. Like I wrote it in my match report. They've got to be the most entertaining team in rugby at the moment and maybe one of the great attacking teams we've seen in the professional era at least.

2:20And also I suppose with them getting to their second straight final, an opportunity to win two in a row, Charlie they have an opportunity to join kind of the great teams in this competition don't they not many teams go back to back they've got a chance to do that yeah as Leo Cullen said it's a very difficult competition to win as we're going to get into later but I would agree with Will as far as they just play the sport differently in a really refreshing way we know they feast on transition but I think actually Bath's defence forced them to be a little bit different again you had Jalib sort of probing around the ruck and in difficult conditions as well right like wet wet surface this greasy ball and still they only scored 40 points and have stormed another final.

2:59And I can't wait to see them in that final. Yeah, the weather was really mad. I think it's one of the first rules of journalism is that they go, don't write about the weather. But then sometimes you go like, well, the weather's like quite interesting, which sounds like it's so boring. But it was the weirdest day because it was meant to be thunderstormy and it kind of was. And we got a warning before the game from someone in the stadium who was like, we've been told, the team's been told if there's thunder and lightning within 10 kilometers of the ground we'll stop the game for half an hour like the Lions third test and people who had flights home were like imagine if it's extra time plus a like lightning delay how am I gonna get back luckily that never came but it was really humid then the sun came out then it was really wet but the party was going around all four corners of the stadium including 3 ,000 I think around that hardy bath fans who are probably a bit sad on the way home but that's epic occasion and onto your point about playing the game differently i'm not sure in the modern age i've seen a 10 play in the way that jelly bear plays like there's a couple of times where you're like no one runs directly at the line at that angle like he does and he's got such a when you it's one of those things that's we're really lucky that we get to go to these games and see them live because you can see the spaces open up a bit more than you can on the telly and there are times where they're sort of like let's call it like the concertina of the defense there's a hole that's obvious and he's so quick at going bang dang, that's where I've got to go.

4:21Whereas other 10s might go, oh, I'll get a carrier with me and put him through the hole. He's just like, I'm going to fly at that. Someone's going to blast the ruck and then we're in. He's amazing to watch. And Leucou, we'll get into some of the things that he might have done that annoyed Bath fans, but what a boy. It's almost not fair, is it, for France to have Antoine Dupont and then Maxime Leucou currently playing. And then Serrat, who doesn't get in the Tillon side sometimes. Came off the bench, didn't he? Yeah, and then Le Garek as well, just while you're there. Like, why not? You mentioned a moment ago that you don't know if you've seen a team attack in the way that Bordeaux currently are.

4:53Who are the great attacking sides? Who are Bordeaux alongside if we're thinking of the best attacking teams that you've seen? So Charlie will probably have a better back catalogue as our analyst. But off the top of my head, I would say like 15 All Blacks, where they won that World Cup going away with like Sonny Bill and Mar Nonu and just a way that they could beat you every way possible. They were up there for sure. Maybe a rogue shout, but like the Fijian Sevens team of Rio when they won that Olympic just tearing Britain apart? I was at that gold medal final. Were you? In Rio? Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

5:25They absolutely tore them apart. Why were you doing that? Who were you doing that for? I wasn't working. Oh, you just went for a laugh. I went as a general punter. So I went to the 100 metre final. I love that story. I just went as a punter to Copacabana. That's not really a punter's trip, is it? Was that Nacarawa? That's cool. Nacarawa. Yeah, yeah. Kalinissau and Tuwai and, yeah, I mean, man. That was a hell of a team. Tuasova, wasn't it? That's where he kind of came through Maybe it's a bit too English clubby, but the way that Quinn swashbuckled to the 21 title at the back end of that season with Esther Hayes and the great scrum, Smith, Tyrone Green, the way they did it to Bristol, sorry to you.

6:03They didn't do it for a sustained period and they're not doing it at the most elite level, but that was a sensation as well. Who do you chuck in the mixer? These are all really, I haven't thought about this long at all, certainly not long enough to give a decent answer, but recency bias and because the Champions Cups in my head, to lose what they've done continually and just how definitive their identity is with that offloading flow, really great. I would say Leinster, potentially. Yeah, the connectivity of their attack, yeah. Yeah, certainly. And then how that bled into Ireland and what Ireland did in the run-up to the last World Cup and still they can turn it on and it's interesting to see them evolve.

6:38And there are, yeah, there are loads more. Were you mentioning Bristol then? And they haven't got the trophies to show for what they've been doing, sort of consistently in attack. But when you, I remember it was Jacques Nienabar talking about coaching against them. And he said, well, it's different, you know. And that's what, to go back to Bordeaux, we all, we will have heard criticism of the modern game as everybody knows, everybody plays the same. You know, you have your pod of three forwards and you're either tipping or you're pulling the ball back to play to width. But Bristol are a little bit different.

7:10But Bordeaux are hugely different, I think, because of Jalabert, because they just make the most of the sort of awesome component parts that they have, including BLBRE. And Peno at 13, I thought, is kind of like, as I know, that's where he started. But to see him back there after a period on the wing is really cool again. And we've got to be careful that this is not a total board I love him because Leinster certainly have a chance of lifting a trophy and their defence is really intuitive with Nianaba at the helm there. But Borda are cool, aren't they? Yeah. And quick stack check. Bielberet 29 tries and 27 matches for Club and Country this season.

7:53Like he obviously had to score. Like he wasn't actually the main man really at all yesterday. But you still know that he's going to score. But obviously he scores a try. Yeah, exactly. Shout out to Henry Arundel. I thought Henry Arundel went really well. There was a talking of Jalibar. Jalibar made a big break. Barthol hanging on for a bit in the second half and we'll come to times in the game where they could have maybe kind of brought themselves a bit closer to Bordeaux but Henry Arundel made a fantastic one-on-one tackle on Jalibere when Bordeaux had penalty advantage that you see Jalibere score from that situation so much but it was excellent work from Arundel and kind of epitomised how Bath hung in at times.

8:29And he added serious gas in the 13 channel to make the second Muir try with the left-hand amazing finish in the corner as well. Yeah, he had a good game. I mean, I think when we get onto it, I suppose, like, Bath can be really proud of how they stood up to Bordeaux there. Well, I was going to say this here. Bath fired their shots, didn't they? But Bordeaux just had the quality. They were at home. They always were able to keep them at arm's length. Yeah. And when you get the try right at the end when basically everyone's having a party, like Jérôme van Graan, as he would, would take a lot from fighting all the way to the end.

9:03But the game's done. It sort of massages that scoreline a fair bit. But there's an interesting debate, which we'll probably get onto, about what this says about this being such a stacked Bath team and they can't really get within 10 or so of one of the best French teams. but I think they can take a lot of pride from the way they did it. I guess the challenge for them, where we always think in this competition, you go, oh, losing these big games is a good thing because you come back battle-hardened. It's like, yes, sometimes, yes. Like, that was the way that Sarri did it, but that wasn't the way, like, Claremont never did it.

9:36They lost loads of it. Rassing never did it. It's really funny. Quins and Exeter got to the semis and then just drifted off the face of the earth. So, like, it doesn't always happen that way. Do you know what that reminds me of? It must be three years ago now. In fact, it must have been about three seasons ago because it was the season that Harlequins had gone to Bordeaux and won. And then got to lose away. And I think they and Northampton had matches that they weren't expected to win but could have gone either way. Leinster at Croke Park was Saints. And then on the Monday, I remember, I think it was me, you, Peter O 'Reilly, Stuart Barnes.

10:07What a cast list. Exactly. Me and you were saying, take your shot. Yes, you weren't expected to win, but there were opportunities in both of those games for Quinns and Northampton. And Peter and Barnes, who are a lot more like, you learn from these experiences. And then if you look at the next season, Quinns weren't doing anything in the Champions Cup, but Northampton did get to a final and they had learned from that. So it's so funny, isn't it? So we were half right. We're all right. But the point is, you're right. Sometimes teams learn from it. Sometimes that's your shot and it's gone. And maybe this is where we get into this debate now.

10:35But I guess the thing with Bath is that they are spending absolutely to the centissimal penny of the salary cap. They couldn't be more stacked into it. They've got one of the best tens in the modern game. They've got the best tight head in the modern game, probably. They've got an incredibly stacked area in the back row. They were hampered by some injuries. They didn't have the cover they really wanted at tight head. They left a toy on for basically the whole game. They didn't have the cover they necessarily wanted at nine. They were lacking two of their centres, albeit Hennessy had a very good game, I thought.

11:09And they were thinner in the back three. But this is the best version of a Prem team. Yeah. And they're not getting close. And their squad's probably getting weaker on paper next season by losing Barbary particularly and Dutoy. And look, you hope if you're Bath and you're Van Grand that your Hennessys, your Sellers of this world, I have to add that bit because that's the cliche, are the guys that then grow into being the big test players who learnt these lessons now, Kepi Tuipilotti being another one, and then go, oh yeah, I played a Champions Cup final when I was 20, 22, whatever, and come back for more.

11:44But the history of them as a club shows that's not the case. And the history of quite a lot of other Prem clubs shows that's not the case either, necessarily. Charlie, what do you reckon? Yeah, well, I think Alex has used the term Super Bowl window before, hasn't he? To describe Bath and how... And Eddie Jones said that there was a clock face and he gets 12. I think that window is just smaller for Prem clubs because of that salary cap. And I think the process of having to renew to stay on top is more pronounced because you just lose players. And Datoi and Barbary is the reason that Bath are going to have to change things up.

12:20But the way that you mitigate against that is time and patience. It's losing big games, learning from them, and it's having a really strong academy production line. And it will be really interesting to see whether this, as you say, whether this loss is a launch pad for Bath or whether the semi-final will now feel like they're sealing. I should stress also that budgets are, you know, the last six Champions Cup finals have been contested by five sides, which are four, sorry, three. Only five? Yeah. So three top 14 giants. So that's Toulouse, Bordeaux, La Rochelle? Toulouse, La Rochelle, Bordeaux, Leinster.

13:02and then courtesy of that upset that you mentioned at the Aviva Stadium last season, Northampton Saints. And it should be an elitist competition, again, to sort of paraphrase Leo Cullen. But it does show that those budgets are important. However, if you think about some really seminal moments this weekend, it's about capitalising on those small moments. So I jotted down a couple from Leinster-Toulon. Toulon, Leinster are down to 13 just after half-time poor exit from Toulon Leinster, capitalise on that field position score a try with 13 players same just before half-time or certainly in the back end of the first half Tom Dunne drops a pass cold Scrum Bordeaux, Bordeaux score, second phase some of that is having a big budget and players that are good enough to capitalise on that but a lot of it is coaching, togetherness tactical identity and it's that mesh that is you know what makes a side allows a side to progress deep in this tournament bath with the line out as well when it was a one score game attacking in a attacking it was like a 90 meter turnover wasn't it it was amazing quick tap and then long basically 50 22 almost like 22 22 from ben spencer who had a really good game and they get the line out keppu goes an absolute double top throw and yours just drops it and that was a maul with seven or eight metres to the line and you think they don't definitely score but knowing their pick and go game they're going to get close to the line maybe get a try maybe get held up get the ball back again have we got time to talk about the pick and go game yeah go on let's do it well I would say but the and you have made this point right at the beginning of the season I would say Bath supporters might think about a point that they might make about this season is that they've been too reliant on that and that the changeover between attack coaches that they've had to have with Lee Blackett going to England and Martin Gleeson coming in has meant that their attacking game has not been quite as slick as it was last season.

15:05And they were a little bit hamstrung without, they didn't have that midfield, that deceptive distribution in midfield without both Redpath and Ajoimo. They have also, I think, the 10-15 axis between Russell and Carreras will be better next season, is a work in progress. and you could say that that was a sort of trait that came to the fore in in this game yeah so I remember watching them quite regularly around Christmas when the weather's terrible and it was it was almost like they were trying to score all their tries through the front row and there was one game where they actually did the whole front row scored a try and there was another I remember being at where basically in the first half they just went at the wreck we are only going to pick and go and then once they were 15 20 points up they just used the backs and that was not great for my match report because on a friday night you write most of it before half time going like gosh bath only used the forwards and then the second half they actually use the backs and you go and well shut up shut up anyway but i remember writing at the time and i absolutely do not want to play captain hindsight here but i just think it's an interesting thing is i don't know whether i actually wrote at the time i remember thinking about it at the time that if bath were to get into a big Champions Cup quarter semi or a final and played one of the big beasts they would need more than that now Exeter had a bit more than that when they won the Champions Cup but they largely based a lot of their try scoring on that pick and go stuff didn't they six years ago and I think it's maybe even more start these days where you're seeing really really bold brave audacious punchy off-loady attacks succeeding a lot and I wonder whether Bath need to have a bit more faith in their attack which is good clearly like you've got Finn Russell there it's obviously going to be pretty good last year and they can score and great tries and create great moments like the set move off the scrum they had a break in play 20 minutes they had a set move off the scrum really good action from Finn Russell on like a pretend loop line Lawrence does the no look to Hennessy massive break through the midfield they end up scoring and you think they can do that sort of stuff but there were moments in that game where there was an opportunity to go but it was it would have been from really quite deep so you really need the faith to go for it and they kind of didn't and the second thing I'd say is that that pick and go stuff is brilliant but when you come up against one of the big beasts in the top 14 they can just tackle you all day and Bordeaux made 191 tackles in that match and Bath were like 100 less and largely that was because Bath just had 20 phases in the 22 every time so there's that bit and the fact that you waste a lot of time doing that so if you're on the goal line for five minutes and end up scoring you've actually wasted quite a lot of that time period haven't you so maybe the evolution for Bath if they're to come back here and challenge and win this competition next year or in a couple of years is to bolt that on like they clearly can do that really well but I feel like teams now are showing that you need a lot more than just the pick and go stuff, which they do have in their locker, but they just haven't used it as much this season.

18:12And Barthes' next challenge is defend their Prem title. We'll get onto that in just a moment. Shall we get onto replay gate from this game? Come on then. So I was having to catch up on the game. I was working elsewhere on Sunday and a lot of what I was seeing on social media was discussions about the officials' decisions, but in particular in relation to the replays that they weren't being given, which is something that is not new. we've had before when teams play in France and French TV directors and all this sort of thing. I think we probably all have quite a few thoughts on this. And I think there's quite a lot of different avenues that we need to try and get into.

18:46And hopefully we're going to be able to explain for you. I think it's very revealing though, isn't it? That Johan van Graan, the ever measured, very humble Johan van Graan, even he brought this up in his comments after the game. Yeah, so it was a fascinating scene because sometimes when you're at those French games and you're trying to get your Premier Sports, you don't really follow the TV coverage as much and you're thinking, well, I'm there, so I'm watching it. And so some of these head knocks that were alleged after the game didn't really feel like a huge thing to those of us who were in the ground, but were raised heavily on Premier Sports for the viewers back home.

19:18Van Graan was asked about it afterwards. And in a very Van Graan way, he sort of compartmentalised his answer, where he said, I firstly want to state that Bordeaux deserved to win that game. Good luck to them. Well done. They were the better team. I next want to say that the referees had a good game I really respect Nika Amashekli I think he's a great ref Ben Whitehouse did all he could however we need to get the consistency right with the replays that are available to the TMO and the referee so he wasn't criticising the officials themselves which was a key distinction to make which I think is a correct distinction to make but he was criticising what we would call the sort of stereotypical French director syndrome thing that's been a running gag in rugby And it's important to emphasise that we don't think it changed the outcome either.

20:03I don't think this is even really about the high shots or not high shots on Alfie Barbary, really. It's about the wider discussion of why does this issue keep coming up and why is it an issue supposedly when teams play in France? So I know we've all tried to do or you've done a lot of digging on this wheel. Charlie, did you want to come in quickly? I want to come in really quickly. I saw some reaction from French supporters saying, we used to, by the way, it should not be forgotten that we have previously complained quite a lot about English directors. So it's potentially, it's the inconsistency potentially rather than...

20:40What's that thing that people are saying in America these days? There's bad people on both sides. Yes, yeah. It's the process that is the enemy. And Jan van Graan likes to trust the process and he couldn't trust this one. So you know why he's not happy. So my questions, hopefully to tee us off on this, is what is the issue with getting the correct replays and why is it an issue in France? Will, do you want to take it away? So I have an explainer here and please interrupt if you need me to stop talking or explain more. Who knows? Go for it. I've been diving into the weeds with this and talking to a lot of people who know far more about it than me.

21:17TV producers, broadcasters, people who are actually in these trucks and know how the process works. And so forgive me in advance for being a little bit grey and granular with some of this, but I think it's interesting. And as you said, I think this is a separate point from whether Bath were wronged by the headshots. Let's leave that for a second. We can deal with that afterwards, maybe. because this is about the sort of nonsense really of the fact that there is essentially a three-tier process for TV production, refereeing decision, TMOing, replaying in rugby. Okay, do you want to talk us through it?

21:51So, as I said, there are three tiers. Tier one is sort of the most basic. So that would be the host broadcaster relying on finding footage, giving it to the TMO. This is the system that's used in France. in ePCR competition it's why referees don't always get the angle they want and I know there's been lots of people social media saying of course they get the angles they don't there is a TV director employed on in this case by France TV who broadcast the game in France who is the gatekeeper of the clips and he or she can decide which ones go to the TMO and so that's option number one that is what was in place yesterday and so it was an issue of the officials not being given all of the all of the images yes on a technical thing it's been explained to me that the system works where there's a live feed and there's a five second delay feed and that's it so you need to catch things that have happened a few seconds before quite quickly otherwise they kind of get lost okay and that's not specific to premier sports who are broadcasting this in the uk it was also the system when TNT used to do the Champions Cup when they would go to France.

23:03It's also the standard system for quite a lot of these EPCR games across the board. However there are other more stringent tiers that exist which we can get on to. So do you want to take us on to number two? So number two is that there's a person called an EVS operator which doesn't matter what that stands for but essentially it's someone who can live scroll through replays and they act as a spotter, liaise with the TV director directly. So they have more access to replays because they're constantly able to look through the different cameras and all that sort of thing. Yes, and they're doing that sort of behind the scenes.

23:35So you're not seeing their scrolling and their replaying and their slow motioning stuff, but they can talk to the director who can talk to the TMO. So Ben Whitehouse can say, I think I've seen a high tackle a minute ago. Can you clip that up? And they go, whiz, whiz, whiz. Yes, I've got it. He'd go, let's have a look. Chuck it to Nicky Amashirkili. we might have foul play here mate there you go and that was probably how it worked for the exited ulster game where there were debates about did stockdale hit manny faber both so high they look at it luke pierce goes yeah i've made that decision tempo happy days yellow card bang it's done really quickly and they dealt with that nicely so that sounds like a better process than number one but there's a number three which is oh and just quickly on that number two so that's that number two system with the evs operator is the system that tnt use for the prem okay and is quite standard in the UK and Ireland and across other competitions and as you can tell that's a better system because you've got rugby literate experts who are going through it and can talk directly to the TMO and the TV director it's not one person's whim as to whether something gets put well you're not reliant on a live feed and a five and a five second delay you've got more you've got more flexibility so then the like gold standard system is Hawkeye which we know from tennis and we know from cricket they have a system that you can basically buy as a package that is independent of broadcast as independent of referees and it's managed centrally and they use that at the world cup which is a fairly recent change where world rugby are basically taking charge of the whole production of the event and for the next world cup they're taking more charge of things like ticketing and everything else but largely they've dragged it away from being at the whims of the local home broadcast wherever they are in the world whether that's japan south africa whatever and do it centrally and it's a bit like and i don't want to trigger football fans VAR in the sense that they're not necessarily in the ground those replay production assistants basically they are in the central broadcasting house let's say in the next world cup it would be in Sydney last world cup it would be in Paris watching millions of screens teeing up replays referees at whatever ground they're at Marseille Lyon wherever so they made sure that that was done for the 23 world cup in France because of this stereotypical issue about French TV directors so it's okay so number three is clearly the best system to go back to one of my original questions is it a particular issue in france so maybe to split the hairs as neatly as i can it's maybe not necessarily a french issue but it is an issue in france does that make sense there's a slight nuance between that it's not like we're saying stereotypically french people are useless we're saying that the production levels are often lower in matches in France in the Champions Cup.

26:11Okay, and this maybe gets me on to what I think when I was thinking about this on Sunday night and when we were all messaging ahead of the pod today that I reached as my main conclusion is, isn't this just so amateur for an elite professional sport that you have different processes against different competitions and you have a situation where the poor officials, by the way, who are the ones that get absolutely hammered on social media through all of this, simply aren't given the angles, depending on the competition, to be able to make the correct decisions. Yeah, and if you talk to EPCR, which I have done to tee up this chat, they would say that the coverage and the replays are broadcast-led, which sort of tells us what we know about those three grades, i.e.

26:54it's the first one, but the TMO is able to ask for reviews when they can. And you think, well, yes, that might be down on paper, but that clearly wasn't what happened with Ben Whitehouse and Amos Sheckley, particularly for the Adam Coleman challenge on Alfie Barbary. But that was one where in any other ground, in any other place, that gets reviewed. We have a look at that and we go, oh, do you know what? It was shoulder, then head. Oh, no, it's direct to the head, whatever. And I think that's what Jörn van Gaal was saying, is that I almost don't mind what the decision is, but let's at least have the ability to have a look at it.

27:25He kept saying consistency, didn't he? He wants consistency across competition. And this is where I feel really heavily for the referees because they are often, well, the men and women in the middle of the field, the people with the whistle, the people on the screen, the people who get the worst stuff on social media. And often it's not anything to do with their ability to referee the game. It's to do with a faceless TV director in a truck somewhere. and I know for a fact that the officials on Sunday were deeply frustrated that they didn't have the opportunity to have a look at some of the challenges that Jörn van Graam mentioned and that's an issue and we can get on to a few other bits because there's more detail but that's kind of as basic as we can do it and as detailed as we can do it for now.

28:10I thought there was a little bit of, there's a culture now of referees wanting to, everybody is so palpably aware that things are taking a long time and replays are eating up, you know, dead time for spectators. I thought there was a little bit of wanting to hurry that process up, which may be compounded what we're thinking of. Certainly for the, because for the second, actually it's the third one, isn't it? It's the one where Luku is high on Barbary. Barbary sort of seemed to have had enough and stayed down, which we know in, certainly in a lot of matches now, referees will say, we need to clear off why that player is staying down because they've got a head contact.

28:49So they stayed down on purpose. So they stayed down on purpose, which has happened in the World Cup final. And I thought that that was Barbary sort of going, well, this is the third time I've been clocked in the head here. I'm going to make sure that this one gets looked at. Get the physio on, check me. And still, somehow, they couldn't get the right replay. But I thought there was a little bit of the officials going, look, we don't want this game to be played by massive stoppages because that now is a big... In short, the officials are caught between a rock and a hard place here. and in a really, really tricky position.

29:19And does this not need to be standardised across the game ultimately? Yes, clearly. How much is Hawkeye, the most expensive? So I was chatting to a producer this morning who didn't know the exact cost, but their best guess was that it would be roughly about three grand per match to install the sort of full Hawkeye system. Call me naive, but doesn't sound... That doesn't seem a lot, does it? And I think, again, people on different sides of this might dispute this, but from people who are very well informed that I've been talking to today about this in the world of TV and production and things like that say that often there's a trickle down between the value of the right deal and how much gets spent on all the things like this and competitions like the World Cup and the Six Nations are the sort of best in class so sort of naturally get the best stuff and sort of demand it as well because they go come on this is really important stuff like we cannot be getting the wrong TV director for the wrong game in a World Cup final in a Six Nations decider, which has happened before.

30:20And they've tried to sort that out over the last few years. But you would say that too. You go, well, why on earth is that not the system for the Champions Cup, which pitches itself as the best of the best, the one to win. Does it not say a lot about the Champions Cup at the moment? And sort of to connect the dots there, the Champions, the EPCR had a deal on the table with TNT Sports Cup a few years ago, which they weren't that keen to sign to see if they could test the waters elsewhere lost the chance and then so had to take a less expensive deal with premier sports and as i've flagged earlier this particular thing on this particular day is not a premier sports issue because they were taking the live feed from french tv but i think all of this stuff trickles down from losing money and epcr also would say that it's not directly a cost issue but again people i've spoken to know about this thing saying largely it is a cost thing plain and simple and what usually happens is the competition organizers would pay for this sort of upgrading stuff and sometimes they would put the cost back on the broadcasters and actually there was an interesting nuance here which i didn't realize when i was talking to guys at the six nations because they've had issues in the past like we've remembered oh james lowe's foot in touch that didn't that didn't get shown did it or plenty of games in france i'm sure where we're more interested in looking at the dew on the ground and someone maybe getting clocked in the head like that's a bit of a stereotypical thing but it's true like that has happened and so what the six nations did for they basically have like if you look at my three tiers i've talked about they sort of did two in a bit not quite the full three level hawkeye thing but as good as and and as an extra check and balance what they did for the games that are on the bbc this six nations just gone the men's six nations was they helped choose the directors who were in the trucks for the bbc games and as a by the by premier sports took the bbc games and put them on premier as a different option didn't they and that was described to me as like a plug-in and play thing they just added their own pundits on the top of the bbc coverage so all that sort of production stuff was done for them so six nations know that this has been an issue for them and have acted to solve it at least with the bbc games and the likes of France TV who would still show the Six Nations games in France, they'd still choose their own director but the Six Nations have tried to ensure there's kind of like basic standards of consistency across all the grounds, all the angles, all the numbers of cameras, that sort of thing because they can vary.

32:48So I just find it bizarre that we're 30 years into professionalism and this competition, the Champions Cup, Highland Cup, whatever you've called it over the years and we're still here And I think it's unpalatable that it has become a bit of a funny rugby joke. Oh, you're never going to get anything in France, silly TV directors. And we know that sometimes that leads into a bit of kind of like barbore stuff, like a bit of sort of stereotypical xenophobia. And it's a bit kind of like, come on, really. But I think there are genuine issues at the heart of this that make some of that actually true.

33:25Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating, kind of you laying out the three different ways in which these things can be operated. I hope everyone else is interested because I've just spent the last like eight hours being like, gosh, I've like put your back the curtain here and it's all mad. Well, hopefully people are still listening, but I do think it ultimately gets to the point which we've got to, it is a bit mad that there are different processes for different competitions that referees have to jump between and that's why this always seems to come up. We might park that there. I know it's somewhat of a contentious issue.

33:56So if there's anything or you want to give us your thoughts on it, then send us an email. The email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. We haven't mentioned too much about Leinster and Toulon so far. Let's get on to that game because Leinster into the final and they were holding on at the end. They looked like they were breezing into it at one point and then it set up a bit of a grandstand finish. Is this where we give them a kicking? Do you want to get on to Leo Cullen straight away? We love giving them a kicking, don't we? Is that just the Irish media? Are we part of this? I've got an Irish passport.

34:25I felt seen a bit, I have to say. So for people that missed this, this was Leo Cullen and his six-minute diatribe at the start of his press conference. First answer. For those that haven't seen it, this was the first question, which I think was something about, oh, it was a nervy final ten minutes, Leo. And he kind of fluctuated between giving a very detailed breakdown account of the game. Which I think he tends to do, having only sort of had five or ten, for example, post-match presses with Leo Cullen. But he tends to sort of be very detailed. It's quite impressive, really. He goes straight off the bat.

34:59Van Garn's very good at that as well. He must have a photographic memory. Straight through, went through the different incidents and then kind of filtered through this six minutes with various things. You lot love it. No one wants to write positively about us. Henry Pollock's turnover that won the game for Northampton last year. that should have been that should have been a penalty against him that was quite funny didn't that was out no I remember it it was on the right hand side of the 22 as Saints are defending and it was a bad one but it's just and I've seen coaches before have those you're right that photographic recall of calls that have gone against them that just just stay in stick in the craw and become well I mean I know like Leo Cullen it just happened although he was referencing a decision from a whole year ago but Van Graan has his famous diary his little book of notes and he came in to the press conference and said yeah it was 19th minute 23rd minute 42nd minute and actually on one of them he even gave the seconds as almost going like clip it up lads and that's so unlike van graham but so what do we think though of the general he would have been next to an analyst who would be clipping it up live yeah so but but that's so that's why he would have sort of had the but on the general point of like none of us cover leinster every day of the week and we're not Irish journalists who work over there but we know a lot of them and we also watch the Leinster team a lot and we've read Peter O 'Reilly's piece today which was kind of going give off Leo.

36:23What do we think of all that sort of like poor us? Well so if I'm being kind to Leo Cullen and Leinster I can imagine that they probably have found it really tiresome that they the way in which they've been covered over the last few years because it is let's be honest if they don't win the UFC in the Champions Cup then people are criticising them. But then I also think yeah you're Leinster. Those are the standards by which you are going to be judged. Just getting to Champions Cup finals or just getting to URC finals I don't think is enough for that team with their resources with the squad they have.

36:56So I can see it from both sides if I'm being kind but I think ultimately that's how you're judged. You're one of the heavyweights. To continue to be kind to Leo Cullen his squad has been affected more than any squad by Lions fatigue. It would have been. They're still uncertain over the post-Johnny Sexton 10 succession. And I think maybe there is a little bit of... Previously, their calling card has been this intricate face play, like incisive attack. I would say it's more so now, or certainly at least as much, their calling card is this intuitive, aggressive defence under Jack Nienabar. and that is simply not as pretty to watch as that a thing.

37:41And so therefore, I don't know, maybe they're dealing with that a little bit as far as how they're viewed. It is undeniably impressive for them to keep reaching this stage though, but they are believing themselves to be shot at if they are not getting over the line after putting themselves, and to stress, certainly his point, I've sort of borrowed it three times now as the third time I'm making it, this podcast. it's a hard, hard competition to win when you look at the strength of other sides that do get to the end of it and win it. Two thoughts here, one on each side. Is this a device? Does he, in order to try and get something different out of his team this time, does he just go, right, siege mentality time, let's go and attack the media and it's all about us and we're fighting because we're never fighting against anything.

38:32Could be a continuation of a theme that he's had throughout. I think it was Leinster-Leicester at the beginning of the season. It was a similar sort of vibe. Well, yeah, I was at that game. So, yeah, I can talk about that a little bit because I was at that match and Leinster were really clunky and Tigers had a properly good go at them and Leinster won with a little bit to spare. But to me, as someone who doesn't watch Leinster very often but sees him in all these big competitions and maybe with an English lens, I was going like, man, Leinster don't look that good. and my report was kind of like oh blimey hell tigers they could have easily beaten them there and i i thought i was asking leo cullen fairly sympathetic questions afterwards going like is this hard like your only tariff is like winning everything is that like pressure and stuff like that and he kind of went off on one about like have you seen leicester tigers much this season mate and i'm like uh yeah he's like oh i don't know if you know or not but i played for them before and i was like yeah i also know that and he's like and they made the prem final yeah last year and I was like yeah I was there as well but it's like kind of like super defensiveness and then I was trying to sort of claw back the conversation by going like no I think what I'm trying to say is like is this almost too much pressure on you or is there too is everyone too demanding of you and he then started talking about Xabi Alonso under pressure at Real Madrid and he'll be doing well if he gets sacked tomorrow and stuff like that and I was a bit like well this guy's a bit like all over the gaff I don't it sounds like he's answered you in the affirmative this week by saying yeah there is quite a lot of scrutiny on us so then there's the other part which is like five finals since 2018 one win one of those finals was at home they lost to like in agonising fashion three times yeah three of the all time great finals like the Saracens won they was arm's length in Newcastle ten points oh I don't know about that that was tight as well that was tight as well so on the on the scoreboard it's arm's length but maybe not in the match itself But then first La Rochelle one was a soiling, let's say.

40:29Second La Rochelle one was even closer. And then they get the extra time one at Tottenham, where DuPont has to produce one of the greatest performances of all time. They had the drop goal to win it as well. Yeah. And then you say, this is something we've talked about with lots of teams, but quite a lot with England on this podcast, is that once there is a catalogue of these things, there is a theme. And therefore, the thing that you can and do reach for and is fair to reach for is that there must be some sort of mental fragility there. Like that is consistent under delivery in the biggest of games.

41:03Or could you say... For a team that's only set up to win that competition. And then not only were they had all the Ireland team and therefore then the Lions team, but then they added all-time All Blacks to that as well. And they still didn't win the tournament. They left Geordie Barrett on the bench when they were losing to Northampton. and you go this whole country looks built to make Leinster win the European Cup and they can't do it and I think being unkind I think people outside Ireland or maybe in the other provinces of Ireland find it quite funny because they go this is hilarious like it's like Man City being owned by the UAE and not winning anything isn't it you'd be like how are you getting this wrong all the time to be honest it's like Bath have been for 20 years you'd be like can't believe they keep getting this wrong so I think of like obviously it's a fair criticism to go you should probably have won more than you have over the last 10 11 years but they might they might and it wouldn't the irony be it's like their worst season for quite a long time and they could end with a double and on that point I think that actually gets us on as entertaining as it was to watch Leo Cullen's strange start to his presser I think that gets us on to the more interesting question here of how do they match up against Bordeaux and I saw Peter O 'Reilly questioned that in his match report and asked how are they going to cope with the stress that they are going to be put under with a game plan that is more reliant upon a blitz defense which does get picked holes in a little bit with this Bordeaux attacking team how do you see it gosh I mean well on psychology now they're massive underdogs which may be in all this it's going to benefit them if you're using this as a device great mentality to be in at the place you last won the Champions Cup against the team that's going trying to go back to back and become only the sixth team to back up this title there's loads in their corner at the end of may isn't there to just go like let's have a pop at this however they are also the team that have lost loads of these finals so it's like the men the sort of scar tissue is built up but to answer your question it's a bit like i guess the the way we talked about bath it's like they're not going to beat bordeaux just defending well they have got to offer way more haven't they and that's where that's where the 10 things interesting i guess because as you say that they feel like they're in a position now where they can't pick sam prendergast and so they pick burn and it's kind of like yeah he's pretty good but like jalapeno mate like come on one of the greats so i don't know charlie you're you're our analyst like what how would you think they could actually pick them up apart because i think i think they're forwards it'd be a clash of styles and almost in the opposite way as it used to be whereas when they play larachelle you'd be like oh man larachelle going to try and beat them up and they're going to try and play loads it's almost going to be like Leinster are going to try and defend and Bordeaux attack?

43:40I think their forwards scrum more on both sides both sides of the mall so defensive more attacking more has to be outstanding I think so much of what is good about their attack stays with their forwards too those little tip passes, swivel passes, how intricate they can be off close range tap penalties I think all of that has to be excellent they have to be they actually can look at how Bath had long periods in the Bordeaux 22 as did Toulouse in the previous round. And neither of those sides got pay quickly and clinically enough from those areas. I think they will look at that and it falls, as ever, it falls on...

44:22I spoke to, for a piece in the week, I spoke to Paul Gustard who's beaten Bordeaux twice this season in the top 14 and, you know, notwithstanding the fact that Bordeaux's top 14 form hasn't been excellent. He said that how they went about it was taking time out the game, making the game a bit stop-start. He said that he thought that Bordeaux's scrum could be potentially fragile. You're talking about a guy who's got a stat of big forwards themselves but I think that's where Leinster scrum was good. Yeah, I think that's where Leinster will have to be. And there are some people probably who are French fans or friends of Carl Sinclair who thought he was getting a bit of a rough deal from Luke Pearce in that game and not much explanation as to why.

45:04It was sort of lots of pre-engaged staff and things like that. But Clarkson was looking beefy and strong. And like, this is a sort of Irish pack that got monstered by the box not that long ago. But they clearly are stronger in the scrum. So yeah, that could be a good area. Yeah, and just, sounds so obvious, but just being so clinical when they do have those periods of descendancy. Just score more tries and points, guys. There you go. How about that for incisive analysis? 23rd of May, Leinster-Bordeaux, the Champions Cup final. We're going to take a really quick break. And then before we end the pod, we will look ahead to the Prem Rugby this weekend.

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47:04Okay, a return to Prem action. The run in the battle for the top four. Will Charlie, I think the big point this coming weekend is that the top six all play each other. So Northampton face Leicester away, Bath face Exeter away, and Bristol take on Saracens. at home in terms of movers and shakers and the movement we're going to see in the battle for those playoffs this weekend yeah huge I was at Saracens to watch Leicester I think miss a bit of an opportunity last time a fortnight ago and that has put more emphasis on this as a clearly as a derby but also as a way to just make sure that they're staying in the hunt for sort of clinging on to the hunt for that top two Saints can really put Leicester in trouble by winning and can really consolidate their position.

47:55What's the biggest game out of these three? This is one of these horrible questions I ask you, but there's probably not a right answer. But Leicester, Northampton, Bristol Saris, Exeter, Bath. They're all massive, which is great. Bristol Saris. Because it could knock Saris out of the race? Yes. Because I think as much as Saints-Tigers is Derby, usually a good game feisty fiery we all love it it probably won't change much in terms of the table it could be a precursor to a semi but now it's probably unlikely that tigers is going to finish fourth saints are almost certainly going to finish first you'd think now and then exit to bath again is interesting but it's sort of like if chiefs win they sort of like consolidate themselves in the top four or if bath win then the top two is kind of done isn't it so it's sort of slightly less Those two bonus points.

48:50J-word jeopardy. Yeah, those two bonus points for Bath at Saints were big, weren't they? And Tigers losing. And Tigers losing, yeah. Because imagine if Bath were coming off the back of a brutal Champions Cup match where Will Muir's gone, he's done his shoulder, Hennessy got injured as well, they're already thin in certain areas. And then Chiefs away and they would need to win. That looks a really punchy away game, but it's calmer now because they've got that buffer. Just mentioning Bristol, it might be worth pointing out that their CEO, Tom Tainton, who we all know, and we all really got in a bit of heat last week because he said, I think a kind of marketing event, a sports marketing event, something like that, referred to the club as a marketing agency that plays rugby.

49:30He's since put out a statement where he's tried to clarify those comments and has emphasised, our number one priority is performance to win trophies and to inspire our community through rugby success. That hasn't and won't ever change. Can understand why fans saw the original quotes and weren't too happy, but what do we make of this? I certainly can. understand fans frustration with that in the context of bristol sort of not getting what they want over the last few years which is which is premiership glory i would say that and i may be biased a little bit biased here i think tom tainton's one of the most refreshing minds that's involved in in premiership prem rugby sorry over the and has been over the last few years he has brought um social media um social media sort of accounts from clubs into the modern age um because that's the kind of position that he started with that aside I also think that that point on Bristol's recruitment being performance first um they run a really sophisticated operation there Gethin Watts is head of recruitment there they um code Bucks games in university rugby and um delve into those to pick up rough diamonds you know Fitz Harding Fitz Harding great example sort of the flagship example but there are there are loads of other ones as well I just I just think that that's yeah I'd love to know the full apparently it was a it was a it was a question about Ilona Ma and her marketing value I know that Lewis Rees-Samit when they brought him over his marketing value was thought of as quite a sort of influential factor but you would think that the performance value was certainly for both of those players actually higher up higher up the list and yeah and Tom has clarified that after a fair amount of heat and yeah he still remains very high in my estimation for sure i think i'd prefer 10 ceos who think like thomas tayton than nine that think like gatekeepers and there are far too many in our league and in our sport who are gatekeepers and protect everything sacrifice everything on the altar of high performance and only thing that matters is high performance and not telling anyone about what you're doing so like he probably feels a bit bruised about all this stuff and i think we probably understand the context of what he was saying.

51:38It's difficult when it gets put on social media and everything else, but more Tom Taintons than not, I would say is a good thing for rugby and our sport if we're trying to grow up and be a bit more professional and sell ourselves to the wider world. Otherwise, we just shamble around and no one watches. Yeah, I think when taken in isolation, which is tough for Tom because it wasn't a quote in isolation, it was obviously part of a wider discussion. I think the context was probably quite important, but in isolation, it looks clunky. But as you say, I think when we, you know, We've got the privileged position to be able to deal with people in the game.

52:09There are loads of people in the game that we could talk about that are difficult to deal with, don't help the sport, all that sort of thing. Tom Tainton is certainly not that. He's the total opposite of that. Should we start like a... What's like a Patreon version, like subscribers only? And we'll name them. And then we'll lose our jobs. Yeah, that's an idle spread, definitely. Look, on that point, before we get ourselves cancelled, I'd better wrap up the pod. But back to Prem action, really intrigued in those games this week. And it really does highlight, doesn't it, the gap in the Prem, though, doesn't it?

52:43Because we mentioned the games between the sides where it really matters and we're going to be intrigued on. And then you've got Glosser Sale, Newcastle Harlequins. You're like, yeah, OK. What you didn't say in the top six playing each other is that, like, oh, by the way, there's some two other games that we're not very interested in. Yeah, we've got some really good games and then some others. Now we've said that, those will be bangers. Those will be, yeah, they'll be excellent. But it doesn't matter if they're bangers. They could be rubbish. They could be bangers. It doesn't matter. also we got the return of the women's six nations as well so we'll have elgan back on the pod next week after england face italy most likely setting up a grand slam showdown with france we'll wait and see will charlie pleasure as always boys thank you pal thank you i hope no one was too bored about production values i'm fascinated by it so i don't care what youtube says eh then they can let us know email the ruck at the times.co.uk this has been the ruck The Journalist Rugby Podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times will be back with you on Monday.

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