British & Irish Lions tour to France: No-brainer or an erosion of history?

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0:40Alfie: Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash start now today to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Today's episode of The Ruck is brought to you by Allianz. They've been part of the rugby family for over 13 years now, backing the game at every level from the muddy grassroots pitches to the biggest stages in the sport. And their partnership with the home of England rugby, Allianz Stadium, isn't just about putting a name on the building.

1:24Alfie: It's about backing the future of the game and the generations still to come. We're proud to have them on board. Let's get into it.

1:46Alfie: hello this is the rock the journalists rugby podcast from the times and the sunday times welcome along i'm alfie reynolds in studio on a monday once again with will kelleher Hello, I'm back. You're back from the north. Well, it is the north. Hold that thought. We'll get back to that in just a moment. Because also alongside Will is Alex Lowe. All right, Alex. Hello. Good little trip to America. You've been away, haven't you? I went to, oh yeah, last week, well the weekend before last I was in Tampa Bay. And then this weekend I was in Coventry. Tampa Bay which is the south of America yeah family get together in Tampa Bay my sister family live out there went to some baseball went to the beach went to a big Premier League fan fest event which was wicked and then this weekend went to watch the old Northamptonian 3rd 15 in their end of season away day at Old Wheatlands for a grassroots feature which was class like just everything you want from a grassroots day out of the rugby it was wicked oh awesome awesome well the reference to the north For those that aren't sure, on last week's pod, Will said that he was in Derbyshire in the north, to which Charlie Morgan immediately said, hang on, I'm not letting you get away with that.

2:52Alfie: And we said to the listeners, let us know, is Derbyshire in the north? And Jeremy emailed theruckatthetimes.co.uk and he said the RFU's East Midlands regional side is Notts, Lincolnshire and Derbyshire. So Derbyshire is East Midlands. When you're driving up the M1... It's going to double down. There is a big sign that says two words, the north. and where is that i don't know but it's sort of up that way but yeah well yeah well there we go it's north from where i usually live and it was gorgeous it was lovely the hope valley was shining i did a big walk it did all these people who did the marathon on sunday i i walked that distance on friday lads so you know i didn't put that on instagram oh wait no sorry i did the hope valley is where they tested the damn busters yeah so the bamford bombers are the local football team and And they've got the flying plane over the dam as their emblem.

3:46So good.

3:48Alfie: Well, let me try and close that can of worms for now then, shall we? Definitely north. Where Derbyshire is. Coming up on the pod, Elgin is going to be joining us to chat about the women's Six Nations. He was at Ashton Gate for the England-Wales game. We will review the prayer and we'll look ahead to Bath's trip to Bordeaux. But to start off, interesting story at the back end of last week. We wanted to start with this. the British and Irish Lions, the possibility of them touring France, Argentina, Japan, something like this. So this news broke that the Lions are looking at the possibility of expanding where they possibly tour, away from the traditional rotation of South Africa, New Zealand, Australia.

4:22Alfie: Now, my immediate thought was this, was the France thing was bubbling away just before we all went on the Lions tour last year. And when we put that to the Lions CEO, Ben Calvary, he's very good at saying, well, we look at all possibilities and not really telling you anything. Has this progressed at all from that point of court? The Lions will look at all possibilities. Is it more advanced than that? Yeah, so, yeah, let's run people through. So this is basically a secret document that has been unearthed. And a credit to our friends and colleagues at The Telegraph who did the story first. And we followed up that they're exploring ways of changing the Lions structure and where they tour, how often they tour.

4:59It's a document that's very, it's meant to be in-house. It literally says on it, private and confidential. and there's a whole legal bit at the end that's like please don't share it or have any knowledge that you've even got this document so sorry lads but um it's essentially the commercial and marketing and that and the sort of the teams there who are trying to milk every bit of money out of the lines how they can do that in future how they can change the format whether they tour different countries and they're trying to sign up agencies to advise them on where they could go how they could change things how they could make more money and as you say the the France thing has been a kind of goal in lots of people's minds and we've talked about it and it would be an unbelievable trip wouldn't it and it seems that on the way down to New Zealand in 29 it's very likely that the Lions are going to stop and play their kind of home game that's now kind of baked into the touring schedule in France or at least against France that seems very likely but a full tour to France has never quite been realised or put down on paper properly by the Lions themselves?

6:05No, to answer your question about has it changed, at the end of the Lions tour we asked Ben Calverley and Yian Evans about all of these things at the end of the tour and they only referred to playing in a game in Vegas or playing a game against France as that launch game, as the send-off game as has become known, or playing against a Fiji or a Tonga or Samoa as part of a midweek tour match programme for the New Zealand tour in 29. There was no talk at all about changing the destination for tours. So now, I wonder whether they've looked at the success of New Zealand and South Africa going, right, let's just go and do our own thing and let's blow up the rugby championship for a year.

6:51Let's go and do our own big series. And I wonder if the Lions have gone, oh, well, maybe we need to blow up or at least consider changing the structure of what we do. So this document talks about exploring ways of modernising and gaining more value from what the Lions is about. So does that mean staying on the current rotation? Does it mean expanding the rotation to 16 years, which will therefore mean inserting a new host country or countries within that rota? That's what this proposal document or exploratory document is asking of the agencies who they're engaging. And the three places that are explicitly mentioned in this document as examples of where they want agencies to advise them as to whether they would be a successful place to go are France, the Americas generally, so obviously North America being where the 2031 Men's World Cup and the 33 Women's World Cup is, and therefore the unions are now incentives for them to play there.

7:54If they do, they'll get more cut of the pie from the World Cups there. And the last place is Japan. So that's why in headlines and everything you would have seen, they're exploring tours to France, Japan and the Americas. And now there's so much we can talk about on this whole topic. But the first bit, which is I wrote a comment piece about this on Friday, having read through this document, is there's sort of two, in my view, there's sort of two dividing lines between my thoughts on this. The first bit is, wow, a France tour. How good? We could talk for hours about how amazing that could be. However, you would have to go, okay, if it actually works, if you could actually convince Elenar to end their season early, could you actually play against Toulouse, Bordeaux-Bag, La Rochelle, Toulon, etc.?

8:41Would that actually work in July at the end of their longest season ever? And then where would you play the matches, all that sort of thing? But just as a Nirvana vision of rugby, it'd be sensational. And on our Red Lions series, it was Matt Dawson, wasn't it, saying it would be one of the great sporting misses if they don't arrange Lions against France. And he would catapult the sport into a new stratosphere, a different stratosphere, he said. That's what he said, wasn't it? One of our commenters underneath was very pernickety when I used that phrase again. They said, there is only one stratosphere.

9:12You can't be catapulted to a different one. But we'll leave that for now. So that's thought one. So do you want to do two minutes on France, like a Lions Tour de France, which would be amazing? Absolutely.

9:23Alfie: Because that's a positive bit. My big question really was what you've touched upon already, which as we know, we see France on their summer tours at the moment often are missing DuPont and loads of their players. How would it work with the French clubs, with the Union? Would they have access to their players? But look, I think there's a lot of issues, but it is undeniable how... Well, the one thing that would persuade the LNR to change is the money that would be generated by a Lions Tour de France. It would be enormous. the one point I would argue against a Lions tour to France is the sense of adventure of going the other side of the world and taking on the teams from the Southern Hemisphere which is which is where the mystical the myth of the Lions has you know has been built in those countries I know the Lions have played in Argentina they have played in Canada and Sri Lanka one-off games but the whole sort of romance and mystery of it is this idea, as we explored in the Red Lions pod, the idea of going on the other side of the world.

10:23Now, I appreciate that culturally going to France would be hugely different. And I would be in favour of a Lion's Tour to France. If it was to happen now, it would be the most extraordinary thing because French rugby is just buzzing at the moment. Everything is thriving over there. So I would be in favour of it. But that's just the one element of it, which I do love about the current rotation, is this idea of going on an adventure to the other side of the world.

10:51Alfie: And that's something as well. Plenty of people below the line, again, the commenters on the article have been saying that they would actually be able to go and watch the Lions, as we spoke about when we were in Australia. It is an expensive endeavour to follow the Lions to South Africa, New Zealand or Australia. Most people can't do it at any point. Maybe they can once they're retired. I mean, it won't be cheap going to the south of France, by the way. No, it won't, but you can do a weekend though, can't you? You can do a weekend. One thing that we talked about, I remember in the Glenmore, our favourite pub in Sydney, in our sort of wrap-up pod, was the idea of, you came up with it, the kind of Backpackers Barmy Army type trip.

11:28Because as three of us who were there, we saw the clientele, because of the prices and because of the length of the trip and everything else, it's rich retirees, largely. Or people who've saved up for four, eight, twelve years for it, the once-in-a-lifetime trip. It's also that's the only way to access tickets. Yeah, exactly. Whereas if there were a trip to France and you were like one of your kids who was just about to leave school or university or something and it was happening that summer, you'd be like, amazing. Take a backpack, let's go. It's like the World Cup again. My mates went to Nice for a weekend.

12:01Rent a caravan, drive around, pop to a few games, have loads of wine and duck and things like that. It'd be unbelievable, wouldn't it?

12:09Alfie: The other thing that I could, can I just say for France, before we maybe get onto the overarching kind of wider question here that I think is really important is the reason, the big reason or one of the big reasons I think that France would be really good is because it would be competitive. I think a Lions tour has to be competitive which was again somewhat of an issue what we had in Australia as brilliant as that tour was and the series eventually came alive the tour games didn't test the Lions at all. I know they often have some games that don't test them but it was a wider problem. I think if you look at Japan that would be a problem I mean the test series itself would be a problem but that's why I can't see them going there.

12:43Alfie: Argentina, yes, you might get a good test series but again, those tour games, what are they going to look like? I think with the France thing, I could easily have my one slight concern you raised by you could sell me the adventure of a Lions tour to France. It's not the other side of the world but you could sell it to me for a rugby Lions tour. Totally. 100%. All the other ones are about how to make more money, how to cash in on the commercial benefits of Japan and the only reason to take the men's lines to the USA is because the unions will make loads of cash out of it. Same for Japan. There'd be absolutely none of the romance rugby element of taking a men's lines tour to those places.

13:28And so that which comes back to, I think, the other point, the second side of your comment piece, which is knowing the value of what a lines tour is all about. So we'll get to that, but my sort of like two positive, one negative on a Lions tour to France. I think the things that would satisfy that feel to me fundamental to a Lions tour in, let's call it the modern age, but I'm talking about from sort of like the 70s onwards, is that the Lions is built on it being an almost impossible task, which it wasn't in Australia. The Lions should always be underdogs. The Lions should be a total shot-to-nothing, ragtag bunch of people who've just met, just joined up.

14:11How could they possibly go to the backyard of this amazing team and get to the point in six weeks where they can beat them? It shouldn't happen. It can't happen. That, to me, feels fundamental to what the Lions should be. And France would satisfy that because you go, all their club teams are going to rip strips off them if they've got their player, like all those caveats included. included and then the test series would be like wow imagine beating france at the velodrome in marseille imagine beating france at the stade de france and then having to do it again to win the series kind of thing that would work that would feel like trying to beat the all blacks away in 17 or the box which wasn't fundamental to the last trip where the lines were massive favorites the whole time they blasted all the tour sides largely and the series was basically over and was saved by the mcg wasn't it and then they lost the last one it didn't really matter so that's one thing then the second bit is the the fact that the country would be so engaged like i'm fortunate enough to be going to bordeaux bath this weekend which we'll get onto at the end of the pod but imagine that atmosphere times a million for a lions match at the chaban delma or the felix mayol or something like that can you imagine that the fervor the noise and all that would be sensational the sea of red with everyone coming over for the weekend absolutely then the thing that's slightly less good about it which is sort of something that is probably just going to keep happening in like a globalized sport anyway is the fact that it's quite familiar like rugby teams against each other i.e in the european cup we see sort of the same match-ups all the time anyway however we come to the second point so reading this document and look this is a private document this wasn't for public consumption it's a bit like sam warbenton sometimes says if you put a camera and a microphone into some dressing rooms there'd be quite a lot of people who get cancelled basically from the language so this language is very like transactional and cutthroat and businessy but i think it really talks to the heart of what the modern lines actually is now which is depressing and i don't think we're naive enough to go sport isn't about money and money isn't about sport we know that sport is so wrapped up in money and politics and everything else like there's no other way of looking at it however because because there's a line within the document which says uh or that's in brackets so it's not an explicit line but it talks about exploring all these things without losing the core dna of the lions yeah and you're like well some of the things they're asking to explore you would have to abandon the core dna of the lions if that's where you want it to go and and that's that comes to this point about the modern lions who are they what do they want to be what's the intent behind this whole enterprise so just on a control f the word value is used six times value valuable valuation and then revenue and streams and all that is used another four times like making the most out basically as i wrote the comment piece the other day the vibe is this is our goose that lays golden eggs can we let it make it lay more shiny more offer more expensive eggs every single time can it make more money how can we milk it for everything it's worth it talks about adding new products which or more new whiskey and scotch that we can buy is that right so on one hand you go if that's more stash or more expensive packages and tickets and things like that, which they do explicitly mention, how can we make more money out of tour packages and more money out of tickets, then that is basically like, how can we fleece more of these engaged fans?

17:48If product means things like, how can we create like an under 20s Lions, that's more interesting. But it's just the way they talk about this incredibly special piece of rugby as something to flog that I think if lots of Lions fans read, they would be so alarmed. And I think the fear here is that this is what we saw on the 25 Lions, which I've called the transactional tour. It was, we're going to go there, we're going to make loads of money. This is all about winning. We don't care whether we make an impact. We don't care whether we talk to the kind of Lions law at all we're here to win we're here to make a bucket load of cash we're here to sell everything we're here to put it all on youtube and engage people at home and it doesn't matter about the legacy we're not here to create more kind of special lines moments we're here to make cash and that is a worry for the future of the lions i think this was a power play or this is a power play from from the lions now the the emergence of this document into the the newspapers is the timing is unfortunate for the Lions but it came 24 hours after Australia had announced record income from the Lions tour.

19:06Now Rugby Australia and Phil Waugh had opportunities to take private equity investment but chose not to, chose not to sacrifice some of their authority for a cash hit because they had a Lions tour and then a Men's World Cup coming up. And that decision has been vindicated multiple times over because of how much money the Lions tour brought into Rugby Australia. It has saved rugby in Australia, no question. I mean, if that tour had been cancelled, rugby in Australia would be in dire straits. I mean, it wasn't going to be cancelled, but you take my point. It's like they were relying on it. they're relying on it and it's a 12-year investment with the expectation that the Lions will come back in 12 years time and it'll help bankroll them again so what the Lions have done is go okay you've made now they haven't done this within 24 hours but they know they know what money what revenues it's generated for Australia and it's like the Lions have gone all right so you've just made record money the Lions will have made record money as well because it was a joint venture but now the lions are going we want a bit more of your money we want you to what this document about exploring can there be a bid process as as to where the lions go so in other words who's going to pay us more for us to turn up who's going to sing for their supper come on come on boys can we get government funding from the host nation so it's like that's it explicitly

20:36Alfie: and that's where it starts to feel far more uncomfortable completely so yeah so all this Now, we love the romance and the history and what it all stands for and the idea of the Lions going on the road and selling as great adventures missionaries for the countries and for the sport. Now, we know that doesn't play in the modern game. But if the Lions lose all sense of who they are and what they stand for, and they simply become a vehicle to try and bleed more money out of their host nation, nation, then I think they strip away so much of the affection that people have for them. And it is, you know, Ben Calverley, who's the chief exec of the Lions or whatever his job title is, I don't believe he's invested in the love of the Lions.

21:26He's after the best commercial deals he can get. Otherwise, if he wasn't, he wouldn't be talking about taking a Lions tour to Japan.

21:33Alfie: That's also presumably what the unions that make up the Lions are asking him to do, right? This is an important point, I think. Yeah, and that is his job, but it needs to be counterbalanced. And I just don't believe that the Lions should be entering a power play where they can start even considering going to any nation, how much will you pay for us to come? Because the end game is that you get a Lions tour in Saudi Arabia. It sounds dramatic, but it's not. if that's literally what their driver is, then you end up going to the highest bidder. Now, they talk about retaining the core DNA of the Lions.

22:13But if you're even entertaining a men's Lions tour in Japan, then you're quite willing to have that low down your list of priorities.

22:19Alfie: Yeah, I mean, I suppose just to put forward the devil's advocate point to this is some people might say it's a professional era. It's about making money. Of course, they're going to look at this. Of course, they're going to do this. But as we've said already. And that's fine. It is, but who are you? What are you selling? And I think this gets right to the heart of the question that we were discussing when we were on the Lions Tour. And I've thought about it so much since of what do the Lions in the professional era want to be? And it strikes me, having had the privilege and the utter joy of covering an actual Lions Tour for the first time last year, was the Lions kind of want to have their cake and eat it.

22:56Alfie: Because on the one hand, they view themselves as an ultra high professional elite sporting environment, which I guess if you're the players and the coaches, you understand to a degree and they want to make loads of money, but they want to do all of that stuff whilst dining out on the glories of the past and everything that makes the Lions special and the Guscott drop goal in 97 and all this amazing stuff, which actually when you look at it, and I think when you see it firsthand in particular, the Lions now are getting more and more removed away from what is allowing them to make so much money and do all this.

23:28It's high performance when you're there. So I don't blame Andy Farrell for approaching that tour from his perspective as a head coach going, we are here to win. But it's about everyone around that creating the right atmosphere. When England say we'll go to Australia to win the World Cup, they're going there to win the World Cup. They're not going there to make friends and influence people and create memories for the host nation. But the Lions should be doing that. I'm not saying they can't strike the best business deal they can and the sponsors. And they shouldn't be going there from a rugby perspective, creating as high performance an environment as they can.

24:07But as an entity, the Lions only exists, in my mind, if it has a wider responsibility. Because I think that's what the people in the host countries, but also the people that they want to buy their big expensive tour packages. That's what people buy into, isn't it? Yeah, I think the sort of current custodians of the Lions, whoever they are, have got to be really, really careful about how they manage this. Let's use their words and call it a brand and a product over the next 10, 15 years. Because the danger is that the Lions just becomes another rugby team that you follow, which for 130 odd years, it has not been just another rugby team.

24:49It's been an incredibly special jewel in the crown of not just rugby union, but sport. Like it's amazing. We sort of brush over it a bit, but it's amazing, really, in the history, like the modern history of the UK and Ireland, that they play together just on that front anyway. So they do that. There's nothing, there's no other equivalent in any sport of this happening. and all the stuff that comes with that the law the history the moments the memories are all because it's different from just supporting england or just supporting ireland or just supporting scotland or just supporting wales and to me we talked about at the time the lions last summer felt like the island tour of australia it didn't feel like a lions tour and it's so fascinating that because we had the immense privilege of doing that Red Lions series and speaking to 12 lines across the ages and all of them some of whom are still involved with the lines talk about it in such sort of like dewy-eyed glowing terms and not all of it's glorious and that's the point like my favorite episode of that series was a second one where we talked to John Beattie about the awful elements of losing hating it wet horrible cold miserable rubbish but it's all part of this tapestry and if if the Lions just becomes a vehicle to sell stuff then it ends but but they're also on

26:18Alfie: that on the we're an elite sporting team side of things I always think about the 2009 Lions which the first series that I kind of properly watched and that I think is remembered as an amazing series and the Lions lost they in a three test series they lost the first two which is where the Lions is so unique because yes of course it's about trying to win the series but actually winning the series isn't the be all and end all but i think that and the other thing which we sort of touched upon already is that like if you're if you're part of the lines you sort of have to have a different view because you can't you can't if you're dining out as you've said on 74 71 97 etc and not recreating all those things along the way you start running out yeah of stuff to put your brand on and flog.

27:06And so when you get to 2035 or beyond, you sort of go, that tour was 80 years ago and you're still going on about it because you've created nothing as special since.

27:18Alfie: But that's where 17 comes into it. That obviously was a really special Lions moment. So I get what you... I suppose the... What I'm saying is that's the danger is that if you know the price of everything but not the value of anything, then you start running out of stuff to sell and people start going I'm I'm I'm a sponsor I'm a whiskey brand I'm DHL I'm whoever all these companies that pile into the lines and I'm doing it because it means something different to sponsoring England or sponsoring the Red Roses or sponsoring the Irish rugby team because I'm tapping into heritage and history and a different feeling and that's important to me and my brand whereas if you just look at it from a business side and you go you're just another rugby team you're just the same as all this other stuff then your value decreases right because it's not special it's not something that's treasured by anyone that's I think the fundamental point the kernel in the middle there yeah and that so 17 was special it was special but I think because the test series was so compelling and you got you get and your point about those inside it's here differently like Connor Murray Sam Warburton Dan Bigger wasn't playing, he was on the tour they all hate the fact that ended in a draw because they were involved in the squad they didn't know how to feel at the end of it they would rather have played extra time and risked losing so at least they would have known how to feel and what it whereas being in the stadium in Auckland when it finishes a draw and having the two captains jointly lifting the trophy makes it unique that makes it special, I remember it because it stands out as a series unlike any other.

29:00The most recent tour will be remembered for the Melbourne Test match. The Keenan, yeah. Incredible game, incredible setting. Basically the one moment of the whole. Unfortunately, it was the one moment and we're yet to hear enough stories from what went on behind the scenes and people's antics to reflect with that sort of romance about the trip. And that's where I think we're on the same page. From a rugby perspective, those people involved in it are there. They want to win, and I get it. The responsibility rests with the Ben Calvallese and the Ian Evanses and the infrastructure around it to represent what I think everyone buys into what the Lions is about exactly as will says to make it different to make it what it is and that's a that's being placed at risk i think by this document and by what they're engaging these agencies to try and come back with now maybe they'll say and if they if this is the case maybe they should have said but obviously no one ever wants to comment on these things maybe it's just an exploratory piece of work and just to come up with some creative ideas to help enhance the lines well great everyone wants it to thrive but that's not what's written down and and if there was anything if anyone's misunderstood what was in that document the lions have had a week to explain that and no one said a word so we know we know what their intention is will and i and i'm sure all the listeners would would just want them to remember what they put in brackets which is the The core DNA of this team is what's so special.

30:44Alfie: Get in touch with us. The email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. I'm fascinated in all of you listening, your reaction to this. I think loads of you will think I could finally follow a Lions tour because it might be on my doorstep in France. Maybe others, though, have a few more concerns that we've touched upon. Final question for you guys on this is South Africa, New Zealand and Australia obviously won't like this. This is their golden goose getting kicked down the... What's the... Kick down the... You're kicking geese now, are you? What am I doing here? But you get what I mean. It's going from 12 years to 16 years.

31:14Alfie: I absolutely mangle the metaphor. How can they respond? How will they respond? I spoke to a very senior executive in the Southern Hemisphere on Friday just to get a sense of their view of all of this stuff. And yeah, it was, this is going to go down very badly. Of course it will. And I think there's loads of fascinating things here. And it seems that, and this was kind of spitballing and sort of I wonder how they could respond type situation rather than this is definitely what they will do. But the idea put to me was that the threat from the Southern Hemisphere would be like, okay, you guys do you, that's absolutely fine, crack on, make as much money as you like playing against France, but we now no longer need to tour you guys in November and fill your stadiums.

32:00And the dynamic's slightly shifting there with the Nations Championship because the financial model of that is going to be a bit different. but the tradition of that is that which lots of people understand but just quick explainer is that it's that kind of bilateral thing so when the south come north twickenham gets sold out the rf you keep all the money and that's always been a bone of contention because new zealand go like come on you could share that a bit couldn't you you're making 15 million out of the fact that we're here and former rfu chief execs like ian richie have gone if you want to make more money lads build a bigger stadium which went down very badly other side you said build a stadium or build a stadium It's a stadium that you own.

32:36Yeah. They don't own any of those stadiums. And so those test matches that are played in the sort of world rugby window, that's the relationship. Whereas if they're arranged outside of them or in America, Ireland All Blacks, for example, different kettle of fish, different slice of the pie. And the same executive I was talking to was talking quite excitedly about how much money you can charge in America. He was like their almost World Cup semi-final level of ticket price. you could charge$750 for those tickets. And then you start going like, hang on, you're sounding like the Lions here. Sounding like the Football World Cup.

33:11Yeah, well, exactly. So that would be the threat there. And again, when I wrote about that, lots of people in the Northern Hemisphere on social media were kind of going like, oh, they've brought a pea shooter to a nuclear war here. Like, well done, the Southern Hemisphere. But that is a big threat. No, it is, because actually, I think they're tied into a Nations Championship, I think. Yeah. Contractually, but what they're not tied into... Not for that long, I don't think, though. Well, let's see how well it goes this year. But yeah, not necessarily. I'm not sure 2030 is like absolutely science delivered.

33:40Especially because it was going to be in Qatar. What's definitely available for bargaining is a November after the next Lions tour. Yeah. Because there's no Nations Championship in the Lions year. So 2030, which... Well, sorry, 29. 29. November 2029 is when... So not a World Cup year, just a normal... And it's a Lions year. There's no Nations Championship. So there will be November test matches to be arranged in November 2029. That's the window that New Zealand, South Africa and Australia would have to play their cards if they wanted to. Because England, just taking this example, would expect to play at least two of those teams.

34:20Or Black Springboks and make 30 million quid out. At least two of those teams in that November. For two days. Yeah. So let's say they go to the South African government. right we want some central funding from you and we want to do a 70-30 revenue split with South African Rugby Union what will England get from that compared to what they would get from hosting two or three of the biggest way less yeah way less they get a couple of million whereas two Twickenham days you get about 30 million if they really were to boycott playing England in November 29 because of this threat then it would cost England significantly there's a huge house of cards here which is all related to this and it would just be so classic rugby to have spent seven or eight years trying to sort the nation's championship do one edition and then everyone falls out again yeah all that collaboration like never before during covid or but but the other thing i think this fundamental here is a really difficult thing here and if you're a business person at the heart of the lions you're like why do we care what the financial future of Australian rugby is.

35:26But again, if you're zooming back out and you're like, wait a second, lads, you're the Lions. You're not just a silos union here. You are the Lions, and that's something else that represents. The crushing, crushing irony would be if the Lions decide to do this and go on a lot longer rotation, therefore visit people like Australia less often, it would end up likely killing off one of the big unions. And you think, what an irony that this great touring, adventuring side that spread the gospel of the game across all sorts of corners of it for a couple of centuries ended up getting so selfish that it killed off one of the top 10 unions in the world because it thought it didn't make it enough money.

36:13Alfie: And that might be a good place for us to leave it. Fascinating. Get in touch with us with your views on that. I know loads of you will have them. Just a reminder again, the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. We'll take a quick break and then the other side of this, Elgin is going to be joining us. Just a quick breather to tell you about today's sponsor, Allianz, a partner that's all about opening rugby up to more people. Their support goes way beyond Allianz Stadium. Through the Allianz Future Fund, they've already put over£100 ,000 straight into community clubs across the UK, helping fund projects that bring new people into the game.

36:51Alfie: And with the Allianz Kickstart programme now reaching 5 ,000 schools, thousands of kids are getting their first taste of rugby, some for the very first time. If your local club could do with a bit of a lift, check out the link in the show notes and nominate them for an Allianz Future Fund grant.

37:11Elgan: When do the images we see online become too much for us to handle? Job at Writers Theatre is an intense psychological thriller that skewers the insidiousness of the internet, the meaning of work, and the ramifications of a secret revealed. The off-Broadway sensation and edge-of-your-seat thriller about big tech and even bigger secrets is on stage at Writers Theatre April 9th through June 14th. Who won? How did they play? What was wonderful? What was woeful? And why? I'm Tom Clark and on the Game Football Podcast, we answer all of that, plus provide detailed analysis of the tactical trends on the pitch and the financial situations off it.

37:56Elgan: I'm joined by former footballers as well as reporters and columnists from The Times and Sunday Times. We're here twice a week and for this summer's World Cup, we'll bring you daily shows with our team covering every inch of the tournament. Find the game wherever you get your podcasts.

38:13Alfie: So on to the Prem in just a moment, but Elgin has joined us in studio. Elgin, we were both at Ashton Gate for the Red Roses game against Wales. England 62, Wales 24. Another very one-sided scoreline, but actually about par, do you think, for the result? That margin of victory?

38:30Elgan: Yeah, I think based off how dominant England has been at Murrayfield against Scotland, the fact that Wales managed to score four tries is something that very few teams other than France In fact, no one other than France has managed it in the bonus point era against England. And it was the most points anyone other than France had scored against them since, I think it was Italy, 10 years ago, which kind of says how dominant they usually are. What we're accustomed to seeing is a 50-0-esque scoreline. But Murrayfield sort of altered our perceptions on that. So 62-24, there'll be plenty for England to be unhappy about.

39:03Elgan: But again, they've scored 10 tries and won convincingly.

39:06Alfie: What did you make of the England performance? Because, look, they won. It would have been a total miracle if they hadn't. We expected them to do that. So England win. They put 60 points on the board, but actually a bit sloppy in areas of their play. Was that the kind of reaction from the Red Roses when you spoke to them afterwards?

39:22Elgan: I think so, especially because of just how good they had been in Edinburgh. It makes you recalibrate what you expect to see from this team. Again, the fact that they are without six of the starting forwards from the World Cup final, you'd expect there to be a drop off. but there just hasn't been. So the first and the third round, that opening round against Ireland, they were really sloppy in that first game back. That second game, probably the most dominant I've ever seen them in their now 36-game unbeaten run. So then you go back to a slightly sloppy performance with a slightly different team again, not quite even a first-choice team of who they've got available.

39:59Elgan: But again, 10 tries. They'll be fuming that they've conceded four. Of that, there is no doubt. And two of them were very late on as well. you expect England to outlast teams, to be stronger towards the end of a game. So something good for Wales to look at, the fact that they did manage to score those two late tries.

40:15Alfie: One of the big things that I was thinking about or a reflection for me, and this isn't new, but was Meg Jones. Born and raised in Wales. Her mother was English, I know, so that's how she qualifies for England. But I was watching that game and she scored against Wales before, but was thinking the WIU need to find a way to keep hold of their best players. But then I suppose that's incredibly difficult to do because if you are a Meg Jones or someone else in a similar situation at the moment and you're coming through the women's game, why on earth would you not play for England if you have that option rather than any other nation?

40:47Elgan: Of course, it's the old thing of the rich getting richer, as it were. So it's not only Meg Jones who went to Hartbury at 16, qualified for England, of course. I mean, she was nominated for World Player of the Year. She's not just a player that could play for both. She is one of the best players in England's team and now the captain. So she was capt as an 18-year-old. So she's always been that talented. But not only her, there's also Lucy Packer, who started at Scrum Half. She's from Carmarthenshire, West Wales, same neck of the woods as Jack Morgan, the Wales captain. And then you've got someone like Sarah Parry, the uncapped centre, who grew up sort of on both sides of the Welsh and English border.

41:19Elgan: But she played her junior rugby in Wales. And then a few years ago, the opportunities for her to carry on playing weren't there. So she had to go to the English side of the border. And then she ends up coming through Worcester down that line. So while England is the best team in the world, the best resources, the best opportunities, anyone who's got that dual heritage who can go down the England pathway, they are going to do that. So that's why it is so imperative that other nations get their act together, that maybe we get things like a Welsh team in PWR, that we're talking about the future of Welsh rugby at the moment.

41:50Elgan: Having two professional teams is part of that debate. It's not the main part of that debate. The thing that most people think about is the reduction of one of the men's professional teams. but cementing that women's pathway is part of the discussions that are going on. Where does the PWR sit in that whole conversation about it's the strongest league, professional league in women's rugby so it attracts the best players from around the world and around the Women's World Cup there's a discussion around its purpose and is it a platform that can help other nations or certainly players from other nations improve but I guess the flip side is it also attracts players who might be qualified for England.

42:29It's not just Welsh players who lean on the pick, but Maddy Fionati, she's born here. Ricky Flutie's daughter is on that same route. But the attraction, A, will be Red Roses, but B, will be a professional career in the PWR.

42:44Elgan: Yeah, it is the world's league of women's rugby. It's started attracting. We've had a few Black Ferns come over this year as well because they've been looking at it and thinking, one of the reasons why we've been left behind is we just don't play enough quality rugby in New Zealand. So we have to go over to the PWR to find it. John Mitchell has spoken in the past about how he actually wants the PWR to become a bit more English for there to be more England qualified players coming through it, almost because the PWR is... He doesn't have enough players, does he? There's no talent in England, obviously.

43:12Elgan: We're now beginning to wonder if an England third 15 might win the women's Six Nations based on how well they've done this time around. So I do think there should be an altruistic element to this where if the PWR did try and cut down on how many players from outside the Wales come to it, it would hamstring other nations. The Red Roses don't need huge numbers of more advantages. They've already got just about enough advantages. On the Welsh side of it, the WR has, not officially, but Sean Lynn has suggested that the WRU would be interested in expressing their interest in an expanded PWR and possibly having one, two Welsh clubs within it, whether that's the two clubs that already play the Celtic Challenge matches and a huge part of that is that so many of the Wales players play in the PWR but they often don't play that often so while a lot of these international players are in the PWR they're not getting huge amounts of game time that's this thing's fascinating I think because I think the worst thing the PWR can become is like a black hole for talent right like it's brilliant that it's the world's league and it's where Canadians and French and Kiwis and lots of other nations play but if it's there if there's a sort of unspoken Machiavellian element element of it that's like yeah yeah come over here don't worry oh you haven't played for your country yet but maybe in a few years you could play for England kind of thing you're like no no no no so I wonder whether they need to put some sort of extra checks and balances into that like they can't change world rugby's eligibility rules specifically for the women's game for it but But as you said, you don't feel like the Red Roses or England or the RFU need any more benefits.

44:50And that might be another one. If they're dragging all these talented youngsters to this league and then go, oh, look, they've all qualified for England.

44:57Alfie: But I wonder whether at some point as well, it will become a case that it's in the RFU's interest to try and raise everyone else up as well. So on the one hand, you've got it where you say, well, why would they give a leg up to the WRU and let them have some teams involved? So they've got someone to play against. Exactly. and actually it's in their interest probably isn't it to help raise Welsh rugby or all the other nations if they can just a couple more actually on the women's six nations Elgin before we let you go you mentioned earlier that England are basically without the starting pack from the World Cup final has that injury list just got a bit longer as well Sadia Cabea the latest to limp

45:28Elgan: off on the weekend what do you know there yeah we there was no official update after the game from John Mitchell it was too soon to tell but what Sadia looked like when she went off it looked like It could be another championship-ending injury. We've already seen championship-ending injuries to Natasha Hunt, the first-row scrum half, Marwena Talling, who was the leading lock available because of the three that were absent through pregnancies. We're now essentially down to a fourth-choice, second-row pairing. The entire back five of the pack that started the World Cup final, eight of the 13 in total.

45:59Elgan: So with the teenagers like Demelza Short, Hainiala Latoui, we've seen coming through, it's, I think Charlie mentioned, in last week's pod, it's the sort of adversity teams always talk about and growing depth. And the Red Roses have been forced into it. And in so doing, they've still three from three and scored 22 tries in the last two games. How many non-English players will make that Lions squad? During the World Cup, I picked a possible squad and I was very charitable to other nations. and I think there were 22 or 23 England players out of 37. Realistically, there'll be a lot more. I think someone like Kira Bevan, who played really well at scrum half at Ashton Gate for Wales, she was Wales' standout player.

46:46Elgan: You could see her going with Natasha Hunt, Lucy Packer as a scrum half option. You know, you could maybe see someone like Cecilia Tupolotu getting a shout. But yes, the most charitable one would be England would still be more than 50, 60 % of the squad. And that was before Six Nations where they're growing even more depth. Before we're seeing Demelza shortcoming at 19 and look like she'd be the best flanker in any other team as well.

47:11Alfie: And also it is a case where England, they have all these injuries, but the players that are then getting the opportunities are stepping up even more. You mentioned Alex Maddy Fianati a minute ago. I think she has been brilliant this six-day. She was really good at Ashton Gate. So England are going from strength to strength. Can I just do a couple final ones on the other games, Elgin? Italy 41, Scotland 14. We've seen Scotland beat Wales in the Principality to start their Six Nations, get absolutely hosed by England in the big showpiece event at Murrayfield. Then that's got to be a pretty disappointing scoreline, isn't it, following up the England game?

47:41Elgan: Yeah, it's usually. Rachel Malcolm said after the England game, you know, we were targeting three games, which you take to mean not England and not France. You expect to lose those games, although France have semblances of weakness there where people can target them. But yeah, I mean, it was a real stuffing by Italy, really. It was quite a statement result. And it does add a little free sort of excitement for that England-Italy game in Parma, just because Italy will be riding high of that after the fallow week. You know, no one's expecting that they'll somehow go and win, I think. But it does just at least make it look like Italy can pose them some trouble in the same way that Wales have just done.

48:17Elgan: But yeah, for Scotland, it's a similar story that we see for Wales, Scotland, Ireland in this competition, where there's a lot of one step forward, one step back. And it was maybe two or three steps back on this occasion. Are you going to Parma? I am going to Parma, yes. It's a nice trip, that. This time of year. Look at that. Well, we can't complain. We had Rome in the spring, didn't we? Well, and we had Verona. Oh, yeah, of course. And I'd love to go back there. There's some lovely, you know, those sort of, it's the wrong word because it's French word, but boulangerie type situation. Sandwich shops, let's call them, with the shaved porchetta and things like that.

48:54Tough trip, that one for you. I want to get to Ravigo,

48:57Elgan: Catherine James stare at you. That's where I want to be. I'll see where Catherine walked in Ravigo. And there's the Welsh rugby link.

49:04Alfie: I also say as well, missed opportunity for Ireland, probably a lesson really for them in you've got to take your chances. They lost to France 26-7. Elgin will let you go. Really appreciate you coming in to chat to us once again. So a break now in the women's Six Nations and then they resume for the final couple of rounds. Next up, we will finish the pod by reviewing the Prem action over the weekend and looking ahead to a massive trip to Bordeaux. for Bath. So great to have Elgin on rounding off the pod with the Prem. Look ahead to Bath's trip to Bordeaux as well. Should we start with Bath actually in the Prem?

49:37Alfie: Because once again, them and Northampton serving up a brilliant game. I feel like I am copying and pasting the comment that I made the other week after their European knockout game. Wouldn't we all love to see that as the Prem final? And again, it was another occasion where you're thinking that there actually might be still a way to go in the race to the playoffs because things are tightening up slightly. but you're looking at Bath and Northampton aren't you and thinking yeah if we get to Twickenham on the 20th of June or whatever it is and that's the final I think we're going to be pretty happy Eddie Hearns slightly in the sport that's a great like trilogy well just the Bath and Northampton trilogy so far that could be a quartet of belters great games all of them unbelievable and for all sorts of different reasons this one I felt well what do you think to this was that a moral victory for Bath going there with a very very rotated team nearly winning I think it's a psychological victory.

50:27Their fans, I think it was a bang to rights pen at the end, but their fans would probably go, oh, we only lost it on a dodgy home decision kind of thing, which I don't agree with, but that's what they might say. The strident Bath fans. And nearly beat them with a second team away. But then Saints did beat them with a second team away in December, which was one of the performances of the season, which we've probably only been beaten had Bath actually won at Franklin's Gardens. I just think it's, yeah, from an Eddie Hearns-style sort of promoter perspective, you saw the two first teams engage in a humdinger of a Champions Cup game.

51:07And then in the other two where you've had essentially first three seconds, not quite, but not far off, they've also been one-score games, like so tight. And like 70-point-plus most times as well. sets up it's just the whole narrative we talk about telling the story of the sport Eddie Hearn talks about telling the story of the sport there's no better story in English rugby professional rugby this season than these two going at each other with the prospect of the meeting for the and Tigers are like oh yeah for the title which is part of it too if that was to happen they're like a third wheel being like what about us yeah yeah and come in and then back themselves to win at Franklin's Gardens on the last day or whatever sorry in the semi-finals but just brilliant engaging great rugby great stories with a prospect right now it's hard to see anything other despite what Geoff Parling will be plotting in the background that these two will contest the final on what's always a bright day at Twickenham it would be amazing if that was happening I've got a couple more hot takes only well coached and well put together sides do that like Barth's second team actually put away sail away as well didn't they a few weeks ago and you think that like any mild piece of rotation from some of the slightly more like struggling clubs just they're gone completely aren't they whereas well coached well put together saints well put coached well put together bath there's just something inherent in being a good team in momentum and full of spirit and and actually quite a few players probably knowing their place a bit like a chris harris being like i'm here to be the fifth center but when i play i'm going to be the heart and soul of this defensive performance for example that's why they are the two best teams in the country yeah because they have an identity that flows the whole way through that squad and i guess if you were to think back to the previous dominant teams saracens you could have rotated players into that saracens first 15 like the marcello the Boshes or the Barringtons or the Jackson Rays and those guys, the heart and soul dudes.

53:19And you would get the same understanding of what they're trying to achieve, the same mentality, the same performance. And so that is why that Saracens team was so dominant because not only had depth of talent, but everything was aligned. They were all in on everything. And Ed Griffiths would say that's part of why they went on ski trips and adventures around Europe was to build this whole squad, whole club mentality. There's also a big part of it is continuity, of understanding that your recruitment for this year is going to benefit us in two years' time. You look at the Premier League, but you look at Quinns and clubs who don't have that, who change every couple of years.

54:03The next guy is inheriting a squad that he didn't pull together that might be balanced in a way that he doesn't want. And so it doesn't, you know, you can't build anything. You can't build that alignment the whole way through. What Bath have done and what Saints have done is tap into really strong academies. They've recruited really smartly. The coaching is first class. And that's what, for me, what separates them. So the point about the second teams being really strong is why they are the best teams in the country. You see Josh Bayliss keep pace with Slyho as well. They've played him on the wing, haven't they?

54:43I don't think that's actually that much of a surprise. You talk to guys at Bath and they say Arundel and Bayliss are the quickest in the club. Which is remarkable for Bayliss in the back row. It's extraordinary. So my next hot take on Bath, and I want your reaction to this. Wow. Is it their best shot of winning the league is losing on Saturday? Sorry, Sunday to Bordeaux. because going through, I mean, look, they're playing this game either way, but then to prepare for a Champions Cup final in the middle of fixtures that might throw them either way because of the rotation thing that they'll have to do.

55:18So their Prem fixtures still to go are Exeter away,

55:21Alfie: Newcastle home, so they'll win that, Bristol away, Leicester at home. So they have got three teams that are fighting for... And then definitely a semi, wherever that will be, likely to be at the rec. But they just need a home semi, right? so they've got a 10 point buffer so you're saying you disagree well I just I think I'm not sure I agree no Bath don't have a 10 point buffer Alfie disagrees Saints do they've got a 6 point buffer so they probably need what because everyone plays everyone a little bit so they maybe need a couple more wins let's be honest there's a 5 points for them at Newcastle yeah so beat Leicester Exeter and Leicester are the two trickier ones in there what was the other one Alfie?

56:00Bristol away oh well then there's three tough ones no because I think they can manage as we've just said I think they can manage their way through those fixtures to get enough points for a home semi-final which is all that's required yeah they do of all the squads including Saints they have the deepest resources to try and go for a double

56:20Alfie: and another question then for you how is this their window for the Champions Cup because what De Toit leaving Barbary leaving I do think so but they're going to the greatest sub team in Europe at the moment I know Toulouse, they almost certainly are the greatest club side of all time. But in this window, Bordeaux look kind of unbeatable in the Champions Cup. I know they're not top of the top 14. And I know particularly that Poe are above them because they're my team. But that looks a really, really tricky task, doesn't it? Well, without stating... So I'm going. So if Bath win, and Elgin wrote about this the other day, catapult into the top five of all-time great away wins in the Champions Cup and Heineken Cup, you'd have to say.

57:06Alfie: Well, without stating the total obvious ahead of a semi-final, but it feels massive for this kind of Bath project, like since Van Grane has come in, built them into the best team in England, finally winning and becoming English champions again after it had been decades. This is the next frontier, isn't it? It's quite a significant weekend, I think, in particular, when you consider some of the players that they are losing. It's a kick though, isn't it, really? Like you only go back four years and they're bottom of the table. And then he comes in, they kind of come in mid-table. Then they suddenly go a bit further than they thought, lose the final.

57:37Then they win the final. Then they win a treble. And now it's like they should win the Champions Cup straight away next season. But as we've talked about a lot on this pod, particularly in England with your salary cap, you've got to hit your window, haven't you? And this is their window for sure. And actually, you'd probably say that the semi-final would be harder than the final. because away at Bordeaux the champions who are supreme Bielberet if he doesn't score a hat-trick we're going to be surprised and then like Leinster and Toulon Toulon have not had a good top 14 season but they'll have a proper swing at Leinster and that could be another great game Leinster are not in the form that they have been in previous years albeit have probably got the best chance in those years of actually winning the Champions Cup and it would be on neutral territory if they got there The semi-final's harder for Bath, definitely.

58:27And in some ways, there's a kind of... I'm not going to say it's a free hit, but they go there as underdogs. They go there as underdogs, but with a conviction in themselves that they can go and beat Bordeaux-Begler away. And if they do, it will be one of the great European wins by an English team. No question for me to beat the reigning champions, clearly the best team in France. In the Champions Cup. but again they wipe the floor to lose in the Champions Cup you don't need to be top of the table they're the best team in France you can beat them away as the reigning champions just to make the final would be extraordinary we'll get some updates later in the week but there's a few little midfield injuries Lawrence Ajomo Redpath they need to have one or two of those fit I think as well but yeah really looking forward to it going over there you've been to Bordeaux recently for the Toulouse game in the Delmar.

59:22This is at the Mahmoud Atlantique which is slightly more of a soulless football ground but it's sold out 42 ,000. It's going to be epic. I can't wait. It's going to be great fun.

59:32Alfie: Well, we'll look back on it next week on the pod. We'll all be off to Bordeaux. Alex, you know your movements yet for the weekend? I'm on an under-15s rugby tour to Dorset. That's the real stuff that we need to get into. Grassroots hero. I'm a grassroots hero. I had a great weekend or great Saturday watching 3rd 15 rugby in Coventry and a big shout to old Wheatlians and old Northamptonians it was a sort of an end of season friendly really like great day great great fun game of rugby uh really good lads but what it does hammer home that and then taking my son on his on his rugby tour is just is that's this is where the heart and soul is this sort of sense of being part of something of camaraderie of belonging and it was just great to get a reminder of that on Saturday instead of instead of going to a prem game and and i'll have the same next weekend on an under 15s thing where it's the kids are playing because they love it and the coaches are there because they're just they're volunteering and they're giving something back and like we get what we spent a lot last week didn't we were talking about rfv politics and votes i was going to say you get worn down by there's a lot of that end of the game yeah and actually the people who just do it for the love of it you know that's the next gen that's the heart and soul of the sport which is just so different now after the pro game and it was it was great to to be there on on saturday and i'm looking forward to dorset next weekend look forward to hearing about it if we're if it's broadcastable on the pod it's on the 15 so i hope it will be yeah i reckon people listening to this who've played there whether they're up in the national leagues or whatever have all largely had the last game of the regular season over the weekend there's probably a lot of sore heads on a monday aren't there there would have been awards and like you've stayed up or you've won a league or you've got relegated and they're drowning in sorrow so there's beer Saturday night for that and the end of season drink up and everything else I was going to swear there but then there'll be the day two won't there then everyone will gather back at the pub and do the day drinking Sunday so there's probably been heavy heads on Monday mornings.

1:01:34The old Northamptonians third 15 have quite a close connection with their women's team who play on the Sunday so there were three or four of the women's players who were down, who travelled to Coventry to support the men. It wasn't a competitive game and it ended up, there were a couple of lads on in trainers at the end. It was, mind you, it was very sandy. But then on the Sunday, they'll go and pick the cars up on Sunday morning and stick around to watch the ladies team play. Great, yeah. So it was a real, yeah, just shout out to all of those guys. It's fantastic.

1:02:03Alfie: Yeah, awesome. Heart and soul, as you say. Good place to leave it as well for this week's pod. We appreciate all of you that have been listening, those of you watching on YouTube as well. If you want to watch the pod, then head over to the Times Sport YouTube page and you'll be able to get it there. We'll be back with you next week. Looking back on the Champions Cup, loads to get into as ever. A final reminder that the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Thanks for listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Before you go, we just want to shine a light on the great work Allianz is doing behind the scenes to support the game we all love.

1:02:35Alfie: We talk a lot on The Ruck about premiership stars and England internationals, but every one of those journeys starts somewhere, usually on a freezing morning at a local club with volunteers, hand-me-down kit and a belief that rugby can genuinely change lives. Allianz gets how important those places are, which is why they're launching a special edition of the Allianz Future Fund just for Ruck listeners. They're offering grants of£500 to£1 ,000 to help local clubs become more inclusive, more sustainable and better set up for the next generation. Whether it's new kit, safer facilities or giving young players the space to grow into tomorrow's heroes, this is a real chance to make a difference.

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1:03:28Elgan: When do the images we see online become too much for us to handle? Job at Writers Theatre is an intense psychological thriller that skewers the insidiousness of the internet, the meaning of work, and the ramifications of a secret revealed. The off-Broadway sensation and edge-of-your-seat thriller about big tech and even bigger secrets is on stage at Writers' Theatre April 9th through June 14th.