Caluori's surprise inclusion, Willis' shock departure - England's November squad!

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0:52Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Today, coming to you from England's training base, which will be a regular place for the pod over the coming months, I would imagine. Steve Borthwick has named a training squad ahead of the Autumn Internationals. It isn't the definitive squad to face Australia, Argentina, New Zealand and Fiji, but it gives a clear indication of where selection is at the moment. I'm Alfie Reynolds, Will Kelleher, Alex Lowe alongside me. How are you, gents? Hello. Fireside chat for the first time this season. Yeah, and it feels very...

1:23Alex and I had a chat on the phone this morning and it's raining outside and you think it's November coming, isn't it? Like on Saturday into Sunday, we're going to get the clocks going as well. It's going to get dark at 4.30 and you think, smells like autumn test time, doesn't it? Bring on the November test, yeah.

1:38Alfie: I love the autumn series. It's always good fun and intriguing from an England point of view. And an England squad, a training squad, it's really interesting. I think there's loads for us to get into here of news lines, interesting selections, some depth, I think, that has built up in certain... positions as well so we'll kind of go through everything the owen farrell stuff the tom willis stuff can we start with noah calori because a couple of weeks ago most of us hadn't heard of this guy he's been doing from what i understand great things in the age group level and has been in the pathway and has impressed a lot of people scored a try on his debut off the bench scored five tries for saracens against sale at the weekend could have had six if it wasn't the penalty try right at the end of the first half and he is in this training squad as a kind of development opportunity essentially yeah not named as an apprentice which if we were still in the eddie jones era he would have been um but it's just a awesome kind of sensational story isn't it like we've had people burst onto the scene like i remember alfie barbary scoring a hat trick for wasps early on and everyone goes whoa maybe he'll be in the lion squad and stuff like that but I can't quite think of anyone else who's done it so obviously, so quickly and so immediately.

2:50That was his first Prem game. Pollock-esque, but even that was slower than this. Marcus Smith, probably. Marcus Smith, yeah. But even that one. So Marcus Smith, his debut was the London doubleheader in like 2016. He was training with England before he'd actually established himself in the Prem. Yes, yes. That's what Calori's doing. But it is a sign of, I mean, you've done a big piece on him, Will, but it is a sign of how the RFU's pathway is starting to work properly again. Bears and fruit, yeah. He went through that awful period of the RFU dismantling it and players got missed. England have known about Calori.

3:27The senior England coaches have known about Calori for a number of years because he was training with England on the 20s when he was still at school. So the footage and the feedback goes up the chain. So, and that's just, you know, as an aside, that's a really positive example of some of the work the RFU have done in the last couple of years, I think. And it's so rare to see a game plan designed for a teenager, isn't it? Like, the Saracens game plan was how often can we get Chloe the ball in the air because he's just incredible. His leap is outrageous, isn't it, really? Sam Warburton said on TNT commentary.

4:06It's undefendable. the best aerial player that he's almost ever seen so as Alex said a week or two ago I wrote this sort of backgroundy piece speaking to a few people about him and it was after he played that Newcastle game where he came off the bench chased the kick from home farrow down the right wing scored a slightly leggy ash splashy type dive and he thought wow that guy's a bit of fun and there was a coach after that game who I saw briefly who said he's the best under the high ball I've ever seen like is where a foul catches the ball above his head AFL style and you're sort of going wow oh, Saracen's coaches don't talk like that about those sorts of people.

4:39So this guy's interesting. And the more you hear about him, the more you're just thinking, he is exceptionally unique in that sense. Like someone like Tom Roebuck is really, really good in the air. And it was odd that they didn't maybe move him to his side, but poor old Aaron Reid was getting it. But he's like, you see the still pictures of Klori above people. And it's like they photoshopped him higher than someone else. Like there was one of Freddie Stewart years ago that was photoshopped where he's like 10 foot in the air. above wales i think it was but you're like this guy's almost cheating the game and you can't with

5:12Alfie: that skill you can't underestimate how important the aerial stuff in particular is i think in where rugby is at the moment and that aerial game which we've seen the laws change it's become such a lottery i think if you have someone that is as you're saying will coach is describing how exceptional they are in that particular area of the game doesn't surprise me that he is being fast-tracked into an england senior setup and i like the fact that maybe it's a borswick thing or maybe it's just an England thing now that it seems we're getting away from you've got to be amazing everything to sort of if someone's got an amazing super skill let's just celebrate that rather than going oh yeah but this that and the other whereas in years gone by you'd go Christian Wade got one cap right because he couldn't defend in averted commas and all that but they weren't looking at yeah but sometimes he scores six tries in one game and that's why I love if we extend it slightly that we've got Arundel and Radwan in this squad who I did a big piece about as well and that place for pace it seems like they're now looking at these guys and going well let's just sort of incredibly accentuate the one thing that they're brilliant at rather than and like teaching the other stuff as well but rather than going well no we can't possibly pick him now because he's not ready because of this that and the other.

6:25The modern game being able to win those high balls is massive and a lot of these things it depends how you frame them so it can be seen and has been presented a lot as a very negative tactic but if because the the athletes are so big and so quick and the and the the field hasn't got any bigger space is at a premium and if you go a few phases and the defense is set and you can't engineer enough quick ball to to knock the defense out of the stride and and narrow the line you kind of have to go to the air to turn a pretty set situation into broken field play it's just it's the way that the men's game is i mean it's so interesting that you didn't see in anywhere close to the same tactics in the women's game there's a lot more space a lot less kicking i mean the red roses did do it but it's very very different in style in the men's game the men's professional game it's crucial it's a way of breaking up something that's become sort of a stalemate situation and so if you if you are as saracens have owen farrell and fergus burke able to to drop the ball on a dime and a guy who's already six foot four who's got an incredible leap and a huge wingspan to then reach up he's winning those balls eight foot in the air yeah whether he's claiming them in two hands or you can get higher to tap it back and everyone's aware that it's going to happen it becomes a weapon and and therefore it becomes a way of breaking a stalemate, of actually trying to make something happen.

7:50And the skill, and that's what I'm quite excited about. I can't get carried away. He's played, he's started one game in the Prem. I'm quite excited about players who have a super skill, who can turn something that has been unsexy and perceived as negative into something that, I mean, just imagine a scenario. It probably won't happen this November, but won't be far where he's playing and Finn Smith launches a cross-kick towards Clory, suddenly the anticipation about what you're about to witness is exciting. Rather than, oh, kick in the air. It becomes exciting because if he wins it, then suddenly you've got broken field and it's a weapon.

8:29And you can attack it becomes a weapon. And a little bit like watching, I mean, he's not quite as dramatic, but Freddie Stewart is so strong under the high ball that he does something that very few people can do. And it's dangerous and it's risky. And therefore it's edgy. and for me I don't want to watch an entire game of rugby which features cross kicks to wings trying to tap it back but I'd rather watch that than 20 phases of teams going nowhere try and break it up I think it's something and I've come from a certain situation where I have a 15 year old son who doesn't play on the wing but he is aware of all the young players coming through so I was talking to him at the weekend when the news came out that Kalori had been selected and my son was like excited about this new guy who's just burst on the scene who's only four or five years older than than he is and he's you know they they share they've shared they share coaches my son's one of my son's coaches has coached Caliuri and so he's invested in it now not everyone has those kind of connections but I think it's quite a good example of how excited school boys are and girls about this next generation of players coming through who are all doing something a little bit different whether that's a Pollock or a or no Calori I've got two more points on that the first one is I find it funny and maybe slightly ironic that I reckon this time last year England coaches were complaining that they changed the escort rule before the autumn with a week to go yeah they were yeah and they're really annoyed that there was a fundamental change to the game made in the laws just by a little tweak and now look at them exploiting it incredibly with guys like Calori and you bet that look he might not get a cap in November but of course as soon as he plays that's what you've got to do right and then his challenge in years to come will be how he adapts his game when people work that out and everything else but so I think just on that point it's interesting and then the second one taking off your point from one of your boys when I when I did the piece about Calori I wrote about how he's sort of already a TikTok star which is part of it and he's been great at like celebrating his own highlight reels and sticking them up there often with rap tracks and stuff like that engaging different people and he's this guy's 19 like three weeks ago and he's got nearly 27 ,000 followers and 801 ,000 likes on his little TikTok reels and they're mostly things he's done playing rugby and he's just come through Mill Hill School he's was playing for Amptill the other week in the champ he's not going to play every week in the prem but when he does man he's causing carnage and it's great to see isn't it it's fun it'll be interesting to see how england use radwan and arundall this autumn whether they do well exactly whether they're here just yeah in the squad or whether there's a as you wrote where there's a place for for pace you you feel it's hard for them to squeeze into a team unless freeman is shifting position obviously we've got faber boso as well ambrose incredible did well in argentina and feels the next one but in terms of like raw pace as those Those three and then Freeman and Roebuck, I think.

11:30Like the all-rounders. Yeah, more aerial. Freeman at some point is going to get shifted into the midfield. Certainly that's been a long-term plan. That's where he wants anyway, yeah. But what's interesting is when Bath signed Arundel, Lee Blackett was their attack coach. Lee Blackett is now the England attack coach. And you look at the way that Bath are manipulating space to give Arundel the ball and maximise his biggest quality, which is this unbelievable speed that he's got. and go back to your point there are areas of his game which we know he's had to work on but there's very few can match that the threat of that pace and if you're trying to create situations where you you're trying to create broken field play and Lee Blackett is now the England attack coach how much space or where in the pecking order of qualities that England look for will be the ability to to damage teams with raw pace the one thing that I maybe disagree slightly with what you

12:22Alfie: said will about how they're selecting people because of what they can do rather than what they can't i think with kalori to go back to the point i was making about the ability under the high ball the ability in the air i think that is so valuable these days that it's to do with that whereas if he was say i don't know his skill set was something else i don't think they would necessarily i think it's because that is so key within international rugby at the moment i think I would have been more inclined to agree if this squad didn't also include Radwan and Aarindor I feel there's a balance here of players who have a super skill rather than just loads of all-rounders which I think England have had in the recent past pick lots of steady 7 out of 10s who are openly reliable wouldn't you say as well?

13:10Where we had an era of sort of 6s haven't we? 6 and a halves famously and now we suddenly you feel like there's a difference there's a balance or where you're probably going to be right Alfie is when it comes to selecting the 23 because what they're not going to want to do is leave themselves leave Joe Schmidt any window to turn the tables and exploit England and that that that'll be the final selection stage where how committed are they to like prioritizing the the strengths and not worrying so much about other areas and this is where we can't get that excited about all of these people because as Eddie Jones proves anyone can pick a funky squad yeah but can you pick a funky 15 or an exciting 23 it's a very different thing where the pressure comes on in a test week to actually put the team on the field

13:55Alfie: yeah i wonder with radwan and arundel whether that is they're here now also because they have improved enough in the other areas that we didn't think they were good enough for so they are more more all around it's really interesting and by the way what as a million wingers in this squad we've already run through most of them i know so in terms of today we have all already spoken to Steve Borthwick, Will and Alex separately because the way they do it is they have a writer's chat. I was chatting to him for TalkSport and he did say the door is open for Noah Kalori to be part of the actual autumn squad proper, which I thought was interesting given how many other wingers are in this team already.

14:28I would suspect that there's an A game for him, at least one. England A are playing Spain and they're playing the All Blacks 15 in the middle of that autumn.

14:37Alfie: Don't you think it's a classic case of Razzy Erasmus for the Springboks? Would chuck him in. He would be playing against Fiji. yeah well he still might he still might that that might feel the natural place to play him albeit Fiji aren't exactly like walk over in any means are they and they might walk over him literally but let's be honest he's not going to play the first match is he he's not going to play against Australia and he's not going to play against the All Blacks like that would be really punchy to chuck him in against the All Blacks but if you wanted to play him why you why not like why not chuck him and see how he goes I guess the other thing which is sort of doing away with my first point i made earlier about just celebrate what they can do rather than what they can't is that the balance with all these young guys is if they have a shocker unfortunately it just doesn't go their way is that damaging to have a really bad day in front of 80 000 people on your debut or in one of your first matches like i think that's where mark mccall probably is trying to sort of dampen the excitement as much as possible like he clearly thinks he's brilliant but he's desperate all the time to be like he's not the finished article come on don't get too excited it's on you guys and us to like quieten the hype sometimes Ask Oli Assel Collins about getting an England chance and not going well and what can happen I mean Caden Murley's another one perhaps like he had it in Ireland He did at least get a summer tour and got to put that to bed I would be staggered if Kalori plays this autumn We know he's got these incredible skills but he's 19 he's started one game in the Prem Steve is not a conservative selector and if he really if he thinks he needs games then like maybe a bench i would just i'd be staggered though because because of the number of wings here and the inexperience and he's not officially in this training squad he's only added on as a as a training as an apprentice you know he's not not actually listed that way you can't use that phrase anymore now that eddie's gone he's no one could be a finisher or an apprentice well was it part of a development plan with his club yeah in short an apprentice they just can't use that word because eddie used it yeah well brilliant story for Noah Kalori.

16:39Alfie: Let's see what happens through the rest of November, through the rest of the season. It's been an unbelievable start to the domestic campaign for him. Elsewhere in this squad, a couple of big talking points. Let's start with Tom Willis. So off the back of Saracens and that win against Sale, their fans were brought back down to earth pretty quickly with the news that Tom Willis has signed for Bordeaux next season. He is not part of this England squad. He obviously would be available because he's still playing for Saracens, but he wouldn't be available for the next World Cup. So he's not involved in this.

17:09Alfie: He won't be available for England heading into that World Cup when at the moment he is the England number eight, the form eight in the Prem. Yeah, and on the face of it, feels like a totally unfathomable decision to make that you have finally got yourself established in the England squad and then you choose to end your England career like that. When you're playing for one of the best teams in England, you are the starting number eight. you've got into that shirt and you decide to end all of that look there was a scenario where Steve Borthwick could have kept picking Tom Willis but his view is if you're not committed to the 27 World Cup then I don't want you in the squad I don't want to waste caps on you and cohesion time and development time so there's that I mean there's so much to unpack here with why he's made that decision and I think it raises quite a lot of questions it seems that he's been mulling over it for a little while he had plenty of offers to stay not just from saracens there was a contract on the table with saracens to stay with good money it wasn't like he was undercut sale wanted him as well bath have been interested in the past well let me ask you this then is this simply tom willis has made a decision that at this moment in time he feels this is the best option for him or is there a failure on england's part to retain him so i think there's there's two bits to it so if you were to be in Tom Willis's shoes let's do that bit first so from chatting to people who know him better than I do it seems that like he is remembering or putting a lot of stall on how he felt he was integrated into the squad to start with so if you remember his first cap was Wales warm-up game before the 23 World Cup got one cap didn't play much binned next day not in the squad fine next time he sort of comes back and gets a bit more established last six nations he's being brought off after 45 50 minutes every week didn't feel like he was the man wasn't given his head so to speak and on the other side you'd say well look at the back row like come on no one's guaranteed a place so the difficulty i think is that then he has now become established enjoyed the summer tour loved working with lee blackett who knows from wasps and would have been the number or eight like definitely this autumn but is remembering stuff that happened six nine months ago and using that as a reason to go I'm not loved at England which is frustrating I think for England and I think for other people around him I also think there's a thing about the Saracen side of it so he's not a Saracen he was a wasps guy like Jack obviously it's not his home club it's not his hometown so there's not that kind of like I must stay at Saracen's thing I feel I feel like he loves a lot of the environment there and loves why would you not really with lots of good players but doesn't necessarily get on with everybody and so there's another perhaps another reason in the sort of cons column if you were to draw up as Tom Willis and then the other side of the whole thing which we'll get on to Alex is taking all that into consideration would you not say are you being a bit too precious Tom Willis no one's guaranteed a place if you're not ready to fight for it and if you're not ready to sort of put everything into playing for England then naturally if you're bored for it you go i don't want you if you're not going to battle for this and put your soul into playing for england and it doesn't mean as much to you as it does to everyone else perhaps is a perception now then you should have yeah why would i want you around i think it's fascinating so we just saw steve and steve said tom willis knows how much i rate him as a player and as a person and i'm sitting there going well does he because it might have been a bit late that You said that.

20:45It might, yeah. But he started in the summer. The indications were he was going to start this November, certainly the first game against Australia. He would have given England a style of number eight that no one else at the moment can offer Steve Borthwick. Like a kind of Delaglio-ish. He carries it tall, breaks tackles, pretty quick, good feet. There's no one who plays like he plays. So if Steve Borthwick says Tomlinson knows how much he rates him as a player and a person, And the question is, does he really? But on the other side of it, I just find it really hard to understand why a player who, to even reach the levels that he's reached, you've got to be so driven and so competitive that you need the assurance that you're a key part of an England set-up after a handful of starts, rather than have the drive to earn it and the drive to go, I am going to claim that number eight jersey for the next two years, and I'm going to go and help you win a World Cup.

21:42maybe it's just not in him maybe he just doesn't have that that self-belief maybe or the almost swagger, arrogance everyone operates differently, does he operate better with someone telling him you are my man, that could be it in which case is it a failing of management from England, which wouldn't be the first time but I do also think that if you're going to be the very best you've got to want it, you've got to go and prove people wrong, and it wouldn't be a bad management practice for Borthwick to have gone, all right, okay, prove it to me in the summer. Right, you've done it. You've got to prove it to me again because Ben Earl's back now.

22:18Go and prove it again. I think that's legitimate. I would imagine most international rugby players would go, all right, I'm going to prove it to you. If that doesn't make him tick, then you've ended up with a situation where he's gone, do you know what? He's followed his brother, who's also gone, England's good, but it's not everything. I'm going to go to France. So Jack's obviously his older brother. he's made that decision he's we we know well how brilliantly he's done in France and obviously Tom has experienced France already he's he was at Bordeaux after Wasps but I think where they're not maybe the same guy you can see the influence of the older brother there not that he would have said come on come with me let's let's live in France kind of thing but just looking at what your brother's done and go I could love a bit of that top 14 player of the year so winning Boucle de Brunoux every year and Champions Cup like how amazing is that but if England isn't everything for Jack you can see why it's not everything yeah it maybe doesn't have that same like no but I have to play for England that's the be all and end all my other question on this is how

23:14Alfie: big of a blow is this for England because I know how good Tom has been for Saracens as we've said already he's the form number eight in the premiership you would back him to be the starting number eight for England this autumn but you've still got Ben Earle in this team who can play at eight who is on the Lions tour you've still got Henry Pollock in this team who can play at number eight was on the Lions tour we don't know what's going to happen if they want a kind of bigger body number eight is Chandler Cunning himself going to end up playing they're like from a personnel point of view I appreciate he's a loss but actually England have quite a lot of good options there they can absorb it pretty well if it was Oli Lawrence you'd go 100 % 100 % oh that's a real blow we don't have we don't have anything like that in midfield whereas yes back row you're going you haven't even mentioned Sam Underhill you haven't mentioned Guy Pepper Tom Curry Ben curry and amica elioni your friends you interviewed i interviewed on wednesday he's an amazing guy but he could end up being the tom willis replacement because he's got the power he looks the biggest beneficiary already of that yeah willis decision right yeah so he's he's in the last 150 days of his six-year medical degree to become a doctor he's he's juggles full-time study with full-time rugby and he's made the England squad and he's every bit as good a bloke as he sounds like he is and he's he's into this squad and he's behind all of those others in the pecking order right now but it's fascinating to listen to Steve answer why he wanted him in over an Alex Dombran who he knows it's the strength of his power in through the tight exchanges which is exactly what Tom Willis brought which isn't what Ben Earl brings and it isn't what Henry Pollard because they're very different they're better on the outside very different styles of of runners Ileone's much happier almost bashing people out of the way make making those those yards that will thrust you on the front foot just the hard yards but he's also amazing over the ball and both just trotted out uh he didn't he didn't give us numbers did he but he's from his data he can see that of all the back row players the loose forward with the best turnover wins to penalties conceded ratio in other words the most turnovers and the fewest pens is is Ileone the cleanest most cleanest and that's not just him going in and putting his hands down beyond the ball and scraping them back it's it's also judging I can't compete for that because the tackler is going to get pinned in and we're going to concede a penalty because he's in the runway for the opposition so I'll just leave it little things like that and just the way that Borthick talked about him there he coached him a couple years back at Leicester knows him I that right now I can see him being the the biggest beneficiary because he's the closest that England have a lot less experienced but close to England have to a Willis I think I'm absolutely not surprised that Borthwick has made the decision he's made about not picking him because he's got to send a message he's got options he can pick a back row of the players who are here that is still formidable and dynamic the kind of slight addendum issue is that Tom Willis as it stands will continue to be an England contracted player So he's going to get 150k for not being picked for England this year.

26:20But more so, and I tried to ask Borthwick about this and he didn't want to go there, is that these contracts are designed for the England management to have better control over their key players. And they extended it from 17 last year to 25 because they realised they needed more of these players to be up to speed international fitness. But now they're down to 24 because there's one of them who's on the list who they don't care about anymore. And would it not be more beneficial to replace him with a Guy Peppa or an Ileone? Sam Underhill. Sam Underhill. He's never got one. That is clearly a question for after November, but you would imagine it doesn't make any sense to keep a guy on a central contract.

26:55One of the smaller issues with that is that seemingly, and people can correct us if this is incorrect, but those that know these things say there is no contract. Yeah. So i.e. the enhanced EPS thing that we're talking about, so that elite band of 25, haven't actually signed a legal document that gets them that extra£150 ,000 a year. So how do you cancel a contract that didn't exist? They do get about£15 ,000,£14 ,000 dropping in their bank account every month, but they don't have a physical Tom Willis signed a contract on the line there, witnessed by whoever else from the RFU. So it'd be very easy for Borthwick to just go, right, stop paying Tom Willis, start paying Guy Peppa.

27:36But, and then, legally, if Tom Willis says, oh, my money's stopped, what happened there? They go, well, there was no contract. So we can just do what we want. So that's one to keep an eye on, for sure. Yeah, but it now seems like this is another thing. It's a waste of money now because England are paying£150 ,000 for Tom Willis for the rest of the season for no reason.

27:53Alfie: I wonder whether this has been a lesson for them, though, that if a player signs or signs in inverted commas, it seems, one of these EPS contracts and then ends up signing for a club in France next year, whether they need some sort of fail-safe in there for this sort of situation that means they stop receiving EPS. If there's no contract, there'll be no clause that says, if you sign for someone in France, then we'll cancel it. Because if there's literally no document... That makes no sense to me. Yeah, it's silly, isn't it? It seems mad. It's silly. I should also mention, as we're on back rowers, it reminds me, Tom Curry, Jack Van Portefleet, Elliot Daly are all in camp.

28:26Alfie: But rehabbing... Sounds like Curry and Daly not as ready as first thought, perhaps. Right, OK. Because I was going to say, all three of them, if they do get through their rehab and are available, I think will feature this November. Shall we get on to Owen Farrell? That was probably the other big bit of news from the squad selection. No Owen Farrell. I'm still not 100 % clear on whether he is available or wants to return to England yet. It is not a conversation for now, Alfie. So you guys got the same answer that I did. So where are we with this? I think we'll decide what's a conversation for now.

29:01It is a conversation for now. My read on it is Owen Farrell is available for international selection because he went on the Lions tour. And also, he's not injured. He's not like incredibly so out of form that it's impossible to pick him. I think they've made it well. I think Owen doesn't feel like he's perhaps ready for it again. And I think Borthwick thinks, I don't necessarily need that yet. And it's not so stark that I'm like, don't have any 12s. And he's not going to play 10 because I've got three of them. so why bother the big PR storm and if I need him 26 Six Nations 27 around the World Cup ready made Owen Farrell ready to go easy safety blanket happy days and we can deal with that down the line but we don't need to cause that firestorm now there's definitely an element of is Owen ready does he really want it the fact he hasn't retired as an England player suggests that he's he's open to the idea but he's never given me the impression that he's open to it quite yet I don't think he's quite ready for it yet I think there's there's obviously a lot going on with him and the way that it ended and how he has been treated and perceived for his whole life I mean you only have to read Andy Farrell's book to to be taken to you know under eight rugby league matches where he was getting grief from parents and kind of that's what's followed him so there's a lot there's a lot to it and I could understand why he would want to take time to work his way back into the setup by playing well for Saracens and sort of earn it as well like not just kind of come back and immediately come back in so I think that's a big part of it but the fact he hasn't declared his retirement indicates that he's open to it and I think England could benefit from having him right now because although there are options at 12 Fraser Dingwall is the only specialist all the others um maxi jomo ollie lawrence henry slade england prefer s13s so they don't have loads of first choice style depth at 12 um and from what we we hear of his teammates in australia on the lions you know this the own father would be coming back into the england setup is not the farrell who left it in 2023 you know even talking to the guy himself very different approach very different perspective on the game and on himself and on other players but if he doesn't feel it's right then that's the end of the conversation and while i think he would benefit this squad i can see why both week hasn't gone there a because he'd be petrified of the pr storm i wouldn't know how to handle it but b he needs to he's trying to grow leaders in a relatively young squad he's trying to bring you know he'll need to know who who his proper options are at 12 he if i think dingwall could end up being a sort of real quiet i agree superstar of this team but it's harder for him to do that if owen's here so i get the timing of it and the fact that neither side has said it's not happening ever tells me that it could easily happen at some point in the next two years but this is where i think it's interesting and as another thing is that when not trying to retire people before they're ready but farrell's 34 now he'll be 36 by the time the 27 world cup is there so if he is here for the safety blanket thing he better be ready and as stewart barnes has written this week like he's not carrying like a 12 he's not smashing into contact like a 12 he's playing 12 and he's beefed up and he's playing nice passes and he's finding his way and everything else and he's kicking well and all he's back on goal yeah but Fraser Dingwall doesn't play like that sure but all I'm saying is that if he's going to be the guy that they go I'm not still sure about our midfield we'll get him in in 26 27 you're like that's a 35 36 year old who's not a power athlete or not a like if he's there for his intelligence and his passing and his leadership brilliant but if he's there to be the frontline 12 at the 2027 World Cup you're looking at other teams around the world and you're like I'm not sure they would be doing that I don't think that's the plan I think I would expect that the Borthick plan would be to get to the next World Cup without him in the sense that like the Dingwall takes over that Seb Atkinson comes through like I think Max Jomo out of it Max Jomo and Ollie Lawrence I think Jomo is probably better 12 option than he played 10 the other week played 10 the other week a couple of times but I just think at 12 it inhibits Lawrence's footwork and I just think he's so much more of a threat standing one out.

33:19The plan would be that those guys make the competition for the jersey their own, two or three, maybe them. Ricky Massey-White as well from Sail Sharks, who a different style of 12. He's pretty raw at the moment, but I could easily see him emerging as a completely different style, exactly the style that Barnsley was writing about. Big power presence at 12. So I think the plan would be for Owen to not be involved. But right now, I think he's of a standard and an experience where if they needed him in, then I think he'd be beneficial.

33:49Alfie: That's interesting because the two things that sprung to mind for me in this conversation was, do you see Owen Farrell as being a major option for you at the next World Cup? If the answer is yes, then surely you want to get him in as soon as possible. And which case, which is my other thought, was the PR storm is coming at some point when you call him back. you're almost better off doing it in a november than you are before a six nations campaign like that pr storm is going to come whether you call him up now or whether you call him what did the lines do with that pr storm they announced the squad that he was in without him in it and then announced him quietly on a when nelly at daily got injured in the evening in sydney that's how they did it they snuck it out basically but it's still i mean denied it was happening yeah but sure it happened but that press conference that we were then all at in when we arrived in sydney was still dominated by 20 questions about Owen Farrell.

34:39Alfie: Yeah. And it was a huge story. So yeah, anything else on this squad in particular? Maybe Scrum Half? I mean, Alex Mitchell is there. Ben Spencer is back in. I think it's really interesting. Rafi Quirk is one of the options here. Going back three years, I felt like Rafi Quirk was the guy to take up the mantle from Ben Young's and injuries have just ravaged him. He hasn't been able to kick on. I think even most Sale fans would admit that they're a little surprised that he is one of the three scrum halves that have been selected in this training camp i love that he's there and i still love the potential he has but i think it says an awful lot about that they're betting on potential to a degree i think van portfleet also if he does get over that injury will probably be the bench i guess you're Mitchell they've sort of picked five scrum halves if you think that randall is on the unavailable list with his injury and he's out for a few months and jvp's rehabbing plus they've got quirk mitchell and spencer so you're kind of like well who would be a fifth choice english scrum half in the prem it's probably him isn't it like who yeah i suppose i'm probably missing some but like will porter's played in the a's but you probably wouldn't have him in at the moment and bracken at saris bracken's very young but like a cailin engelfield played for the a's but doesn't always start for gloucester does he so it's sort of like i've probably forgotten a couple there but you're running out of people so I'm not saying that he's the only one left and I think we'd all love to see Raffi Kua have a full season where he's dominating and playing brilliantly but he's just been so unlucky with all these various injuries and all of them are quite random and freaks sometimes like breaking his wrist and all sorts of stuff out of nowhere It's an interesting one though because Mitchell will start you said you think Van Portfleet when he's fit will be on the bench and in the summer it was Ben Spencer who started for England and Van Portfleet was on the bench but I kind of agree with you because I think Spencer, and Stuart Barnes wrote, nailed it, he wrote a column on this after Barford won the European Challenge Cup.

36:33He's like, because he said he'd been, he recognised his own career a bit in Ben Spencer's England career, in that when Barnsley played for England, he was like, it was never my team. I was always kind of coming in because they'd just lost patience with Rob Andrew for a week, and so I had to play. Then I had to do my thing, but even a team that was set up for Rob Andrew, and Barnsley's point was that Ben Spencer's never had the opportunity for England to be his team until the summer when it was. And look how well they played. Look how well he played. Look how brilliant Bath had been with him at the helm.

37:04So that's why I just wonder about that bench thing because I don't know if having him on the bench would bring the very best out of him unless they stick with him and start him because it was his team in the summer. And isn't it interesting there because there's a comparison with Tom Willis because Spencer, I know, has had conversations with Stade Francais and not gone. and look he's got young kids and lives in Bath who wouldn't want to live in Bath and play for the best team in England at the moment but he didn't he could have taken the decision that lots of other people went and said this England thing's not for me I've played 10 tests and not won a game and it's not built for me I go in there and I'm messed about and all that stuff so can't we bother with it I'll go to Paris and enjoy my life and take the nice tax benefits of doing all that and everything else but he hasn't he's fought for it and he's still here which is all to his credit I'd say

37:49Alfie: Right we'll leave the England chat there there was quite a lot to get into so hopefully we've covered it all. Send us an email to the ruckatthetimes.co.uk. What would be your England Match Day 23 out of this squad for that match against Australia at the start of November? Let us know. Drop us an email. Up next, we'll finish the pod by rounding up all the action in the Prem over the weekend.

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38:55Alfie: So, Prem action over the weekend. Should we start on Sunday here? I think, Will, you actually mentioned last week it would be classic Harlequins to beat Saris one week with a brilliant game plan, executed really well, and then go and lose to Exeter. Exeter 38, Harlequins nil. I wish I'd written that in the report last week, but I probably would have got criticised for being like, oh, come on, the one time... Did you not mention it? I thought you did. I did. I think I did on the pod, but I didn't write it in the piece because I think I thought about it on the day going like this would be absolutely classic if Quinns then go and can't be bothered to turn up at Exeter and look what they did.

39:32I'm going to be harsh on Quinns here. Well, I was going to say you... How can you be harsh on Quinns? It's difficult to say about professional rugby players that they didn't want it, but that looked like a game where they got off the bus off a long journey and just think, nah, raining, can't be arsed.

39:46Alfie: My frustration with Quinns is, and I remember raising this point last season, in that with the exception of those random years where they all of a sudden go and win the league, they are bang average. And I think they have been for a while. And I'm almost at the point where prove me wrong, prove me differently. But when I look at Quinns every season, they'll pick up the odd good result, but they have been average. That is what their league position has been over the last few years. So it's interesting, I've spoke to someone about this before they'd beaten Saracens and before they'd lost to Exeter and all that.

40:18So this is before I think even a game had been kicked. And the one damning criticism they said was that Harlequins are a good brand, but not a good club. And that's a harsh thing to say. They are a good brand. They're one of probably the most well-known clubs in the world, aren't they? With their special kit and everything else. And they put on amazing games at Twickenham. They sell out. Stoops is a great place to watch. Yeah, absolutely. Like they're one of the, what, about four clubs that consistently sell their tickets. And they're quite expensive as a buy-the-buy, but there you go. But yeah, it feels like their successes are random, let's say.

40:50They kind of, I don't know, spin the wheel and go, ah, eighth this year. And then go spin the wheel again. Oh, we won the league. How did that happen? We did the same thing and we just won the league. Random. Look, obviously they've lost a load of quality. Wilco Lowe, the tight heads. Joe Marler, loose head. Andre Estes in the 12. Prem title with those and Will Collier they were built off having a great scrum and amazing 12 and Marcus Smith was brilliant obviously that year they've lost also some people like Louis Liner who's coming through and just kind of didn't enjoy it that much which is bad really I mean it's maybe a different version of the Willis thing you think hang on so have you lost the academy boy who lived around the corner, he's from Kew went to Hampton School went to, great school by the way then was through the Quinns Academy he won the title with you and then he doesn't want to play for you like two years later how's that happen the coaching situation and as much as it's probably painted as a sort of like oh it's don't worry we're all collaborating together it's no good like what what top business doesn't have a head and look Jason Gilmore's taking on but he's normally the defense coach like they're all good individual coaches there but you think it feels like it sort of lacks direction and like they've signed some good Argentinians Guido Petty's a really good sign and they play brilliantly against Saracens but then they do that Harlequins and just go what is wrong with the character of this team this squad this club the individual players like are they that they they seem to totally perfectly sum up their the perception of them that they're the kind of I don't know the guys from the city who've got it good they all live in like Surrey and southwest London have a lovely time it doesn't really matter if they're brilliant or not they have a nice life and crack on and it It feels like Exeter were the opposite of that.

42:31And look, Exeter had lots of problems. They were terrible last year, as Henry Slade told you when you did the piece about them a couple of weeks ago. Embarrassing. Yeah. But they were properly sparky, fronted up, Ethan Root whacking people, Henry Slade loving the fact that it was wet and cold and horrible and grisly. That felt like old school Exeter Chiefs, where for Quinns it was just pathetic, a bit wet, basically, wasn't it? I mean, we said that about Australia in that first test, didn't we? but it just properly felt like they didn't want it it was like when you're under 10s and it's cold and you're on the wing and you're like i don't fancy this at all and some big fella runs at you like oh no i hope we don't get hurt it just literally looked like one of them didn't it

43:09Alfie: let's rattle through just a couple of the other i suppose headlines from the prem over the weekend bath with their first defeat leicester i'm so glad i mentioned they could go invincible last week

43:22literally the next game well we said at some point at some point a result goes against It felt a bit like that Benetton game last year where they rotated the team a bit. We were like, oh, no, we're still going to win it. And then they lose by a point. You go like, okay.

43:33Alfie: But they've got to rotate the side somehow. Yeah, they do. But great win for last minute. Yeah. Bruising defeat for Sale, which we half mentioned earlier when we were speaking about Noah Kaluri with his five tries. Saracen 65, Sale 14, a match which actually was pretty close for the first half. From Sale, I know they had cards. I know Tom Flaherty got the yellow card. Luke Cowan Dickey had a 20-minute red card. which is always going to impact things, but the manner in which they folded in that game has got to be a huge concern. They just hate going to Saracens, don't they? They can't get it done.

44:04Saracens, one of the title contenders, one of the top teams that most people have in their top four, but there's just something about Alex Anderson going back to Saris. And he was so up for it. We said it last week. I want Saracens. They wanted him a bit more. Yeah. I'd be less concerned about Sale collapsing at Saris than if I was a Quinns fan and Quinns collapsing at Exeter. I wasn't surprised that Sale lost. I just was surprised by the scoreline. Yeah, agreed. But I think the question for them that has now been lingering for about two, three years is that they are a top four team, but are they a champion team?

44:41Alfie: And that's where I worry about to go back to the Quinns point and squads getting worse. I also think you look at that Sale team and they've still got loads of quality in there, but they have steadily been losing power in their pack. Well, I think the next one to go is Dan Duprier, following his brothers. Yeah. And I'm very aware that they're desperate for some meaty number eights. So if you're a big number eight with possibly an England squad, then buy your phone because Sale are interested. Tom Willis was one of them on the list that they were interested in because they knew he wasn't quite settled, let's say.

45:11But they drifted off that. So Chandler Cunningham South is another one that's getting mentioned about possibly moving up there. And they're keen on George Martin, people have reported as well. so Hoskins-Satutu I've heard perhaps that would be a good one

45:23Alfie: Will's contact book final should we just mention Gloucester failing to beat Bristol Friday night at home I know both Gloucester have loads of injuries as well but that Bristol team absolutely ravaged by injuries and I was like oh no have I picked the wrong game here because you look at the teams and you go 17 players for Bristol were injured and 14 for Gloucester and then Gloucester lost 4 more during the game it was ridiculous but it was a really good match good game and exciting to see some different players and stuff like that and a great atmosphere. Kingsham is one of those places that sells out regularly and sort of hooker by crook, the fans are there all the time.

45:56And it was fun. But the injury thing is ridiculous, really, really ridiculous. And George Skivington was so kind of distraught about the whole thing because he's a bit like, I've built a squad here and it's just gone. He's like, there's someone with a voodoo doll just stabbing me here. Like, I don't know what's happening. It's the worst start to a premises never, but there's so many contexts around it. And they're all different. like poor old Jack Singleton has a heart issue out of nowhere there's like random training ground things and then muscle injuries and things like that and they're not all the same thing so they can't go oh we've clearly worked them too hard in pre-season they're just loads of random different things and then Pat Lamb's point he felt is plastic pitches are the reason why Bristol are getting a few uh and they're not all related to that but I mean Reece Samet was one of them and there's a couple of others but he's got an issue too but he's coaching the bar bars against the All Blacks 15 so might have to recruit a few medical jokers from that side.

46:50Just one positive for Gloucester. Are we finally seeing the player that we all thought Will Joseph could become? He was great again, yeah. Because for a couple of games in a row now, he's started to show pace, the angles of running, the vision, just how dangerous he can be in attack, which is what we saw starting to come through at London Irish. It's why Eddie Jones took him on that England tour in 2022 to Australia and capped him off the bench. and he got absolutely smashed. He'd been on the field about seven seconds and he got wiped out. But it was a sort of similar thing to the Calori selection now.

47:25It was, let's get him involved early because there's a talent here. And then it didn't really work at Quinn's. He sort of drifted and he's ended up at Gloucester and in a team that can't win a game, can't keep anyone fit, he seems to be like the one shining light that maybe with some maturity now we're starting to see the player that we all thought there was in Real Jersey. The try that he set up and scored was awesome. Like, amazing fizzed ball to the left to Josiah Edwards-Jeroux, who he was another one who came on and got injured, who looked quite sharp and fiery, and then had the presence of mind to sort of follow his, or where the ball would end up with the one-two back inside.

48:03That was awesome. I loved that. And it's funny, I mean, not all brothers are that similar, but it's so eerie how he holds himself the same way, walks the same way plays exactly the same way as Jonathan it's really weird that you feel like you've literally just seen like a regeneration of the same guy it's really it's quite odd having watched lots of Jonathan Joseph you then see his brother and you're like he's the same person it's so weird

48:28Alfie: well he's playing great at the moment so another round of Prem fixtures and then we're into the autumn we're into November England's match against Australia will be coming up we'll be talking about that next week on the pod reviewing all the action as well so thank you for listening don't forget drop us an email. The ruck at the times.co.uk is the email address and we'll be back with you next Monday.

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