Can 'best ever' Italy beat England for the first time?

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2:15Will Kelleher: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. And we are in Rome. The sun is out. We have just had lunch, a short walk from Piazza Navona in the build-up to Italy, England on Saturday alongside Will Kelleher and Alex Lowe who navigated passport control. We've just enjoyed a very nice lunch. How are you, chaps? Just about.

2:35Alex Lowe: I'm good. Took a while.

2:37Alfie Reynolds: Well, this is the thing. Look, because of my surname, I am able to have an Irish passport, which is brilliant. so I just swan through these airports don't have my fingerprints taken on anything and because of Brexit you have to do all the other stuff

2:52Alex Lowe: I also qualify for an Irish passport I just don't have one as I stood there in the queue for about 45 minutes I was sending myself reminders post Six Nations to get onto my Irish passport

3:05Alfie Reynolds: These are the pods we love we love all of our pods but this is the colour of the road you can probably hear some Piaggio scooters in the background and we haven't done that it's not like a tape in the background It was a colourful flight.

3:15Alex Lowe: We had England blazers, England jerseys, club colours. I think pretty much... Jason Leonard was on the flight. There were some stories being told at the back of the plane about nights out with Jason Leonard who was sitting at the front of the plane. Yeah, involving flatmates and nights spent in flats. Anyway, I'm not going to go there. But it was basically a rugby fan, England fan, charter flight almost. It felt like the BA to Rome. Yeah.

3:47Will Kelleher: So a mix coming up with you. We're going to focus on Italy, England to start with. We will come on to the other matches this weekend. And we've got a chat with the former Quinns man, Italian international, the winger, Lewis Linus. Luigi. Lots to get into. Question for you both. Italy, England. Such an intriguing game this, given where both of these sides are. what is on the line here shall we start there for England I don't think any of us predicted that this is where England would be coming into this game at the start of the Six Nations but given Scotland given Ireland what's on the line here do you think

4:19Alex Lowe: well go back to the the group of England supporters who were sitting near me on the 8.50 from Heathrow and they were all the kind of it was quite dark wry humour about well this we could be here for history maybe England will win maybe they won't like no one has ever taken that flight to an Italy-England game before with any sense that England weren't going to win. I mean, quite often it's, will it be a record score? Can they boost their points difference for a title challenge? All that sort of stuff.

4:49Alfie Reynolds: Or some sort of, oh, it'd be good to see him have a go kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Selection-wise.

4:54Alex Lowe: Exactly. It's often a game where players get their debut as a sort of a soft entry to test rugby. None of that this time. Italy are a serious outfit who will smell blood. And England, it's not the fact that they lost those games, it's the manner in which things have unraveled so quickly to the point that Steve Borthwick has parked all of his philosophies, all the kind of pillars of his coaching, loyalty, team cohesion, continuity, has all been parked on the back of what happened against Ireland and how bad they were. So there is a hell of a lot on the line for England because if they lose this, where do you turn now?

5:32Will Kelleher: well so I was gonna ask you about that because I was thinking back to the pod that the three of us did in Edinburgh in my hotel room when it was very different conditions to the lovely sunshine and wheels in a t-shirt that we've got now here in the early spring sunshine in Rome and we were chatting about England selection and that they were making selection decisions from a position of strength they'd won so many games that they were able to experiment they were able to try things and that was a total reflection of the great position they were in and then you fast forward to now and my question for you guys was how much has well in fact one of the things actually i remember you saying was that borthwick had a real clear plan and obviously injuries happen and things like that of what he wanted the selection to look like for the six nations how much has that's been totally torched from the last two matches well i did i did a piece about

6:19Alfie Reynolds: this on on on our app and in the paper on thursday depending on when people are listening to this it might not be today but and it was exactly on that theme particularly looking at the back line that that back line is not the plan and it was amazing to look back we've we've been lucky enough to follow england around the world for the last for the whole borswick regime basically pretty much at every single game whether it's in japan new zealand everywhere else and this is a theme that he's reached back for every point and i remember i wrote about it but alex you remember when we were in new zealand in july 2024 on the sunday morning after some of those two games or games actually the japan one and then the two in new zealand we would meet steve borswick for an on-record chat a wash-up of the match the night before over breakfast and a coffee and one particularly and he was in really good form in those despite the fact they'd lost because i think they they changed a lot of team lots of people had left after the 23 world cup all the the voona polars and farrell and johnny may and lots of those guys and they were restarting with the new team and he's really keen to tell everyone that this was a cohesion plan trying to transplant one of the dominant teams has always been something that an England head coach has tried to do whether that was Clive Woodward with Wasps and Leicester whether that was Eddie Jones and Saracens now for him it was looking obvious to be Northampton and he's kept trying to do that and he's studied Manchester City and their cohesion and he's employed analysts to help him with this project and this week he's decided no longer and it might be a one week one-off to depart from it but it's a massive departure, massive departure from his plan that he's set in place for the last two and a half years.

7:56Alex Lowe: Yeah, all things being equal, Seb Atkinson would have started against Australia in November, having impressed him on the summer tour, and Atkinson would therefore now be embedded into the 12 jersey. Atkinson was injured, Fraser Dingwall did really well in the autumn, and so had earned the right to retain the jersey till a point when England were so bad that half the Well, the whole back line has been changed. So there is a plan in the sense of someone like Finn Smith, someone like Atkinson. He's always wanted to get them in the team. It was just about how and when. Doing it this way, as Will said, he has a long-held strategy.

8:35Alex Lowe: He'll have picked potential teams all the way through to the World Cup. This is a complete departure from any of that, which underlines how much trouble he thinks the team are in. I think.

8:49Will Kelleher: Yeah, so I suppose my next question off the back of that is why then? Because there are two ways you could frame this selection. One would be it's actually punchy selection. He was quite loyal. Well, he was loyal from Scotland into Ireland, but it's two games now. He said enough's enough. You guys haven't been good enough. Total wholesale changes. Or is it panic? Or is it somewhere in between or a little bit more complicated than that?

9:12Alex Lowe: I don't think it's panic but it's not far off it i mean it looks like panic i think if you go and i use the word i question whether it was panic in my piece on monday if you go through each selection man for man they all make sense so two of them are forced by injury he has to change nine he has to change 13 now he could have played henry slade but we know that he wants freeman so by Changing 13 also meant changing 14.

9:40Alfie Reynolds: And there he's brought back who he thinks is his best right winger anyway in Tom Roebuck. In Tom Roebuck. Who he's also said wasn't quite fit enough for Wales, but they had to play him because Faye Wobosa was out.

9:50Alex Lowe: Which I'm not sure I totally buy. I think the sight of Roebuck flying in, making bad defensive reads is probably more the reason he got dropped. That's not a fitness issue. He got dropped, no. So you go through it player by player. Two injuries means three changes. And then what do you want to fix in the England team? You need to fix 12 because they want more punch in their carry. Now, as is often the case, anyone who doesn't play suddenly ends up looking way better. And Seb Atkinson is not... He's no Manu Tholangi or Jonathan Dante. He's not going to skittle defenders, but he is much more physical, much more direct.

10:33Alfie Reynolds: Literally bigger.

10:34Alex Lowe: Yeah, than Freddie Dingwall. So he needed to add that into the back line. And he sort of needed to put poor Freddie Stewart out of his misery. And he needed a change at 15. Now, I think he would have wanted Furbank at 15. So Elliot Daly plays, experience, good enough. They see him as a second playmaker who wasn't in the team and now suddenly gets parachuted back in with 70-odd caps. So if you go through each selection, And the Henry Arundel experiment just hasn't worked. He's got unbelievable pace, and England have not been able to get him in any sort of space with any ball in which to actually use his X-factor in attack, and all that's happened is he's been exposed defensively.

11:22Alex Lowe: So player for player, every change is explainable and understandable. The problem is that because he stuck with the players after Scotland and they didn't repay that faith against Ireland, he ends up having to rip out the entire thing and prioritise the need to basically send a warning shot to those established players that that was not good enough. This is a radical selection and it's a huge risk.

11:54Will Kelleher: My final why for you, though, is why more in the backline than the forward pack when it wasn't just an England back line that meant they lost to Scotland and Ireland?

12:03Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, that's a good question, isn't it? Because you think it's a bit like in cricket. We often say the batters get skittled and they're like 70 for five and it's a bowler that gets dropped. And critics on social media, which is a dark place sometimes, particularly if you're Steve Borthwick in the last couple of weeks, will say, oh, classic second row coach dropping half the backs. but to be fair he's also dropped Oli Chesson he's shot across his bowels and we actually thought oh maybe there's a little niggle there and on Tuesday Steve Borthwick was very keen to state nope he's fit i.e. I've dropped him to the bench and then like Karen Dickey there was some thought that he might have been retained as a starter but he hasn't been and he's on the bench so there have been changes there I mean it's moving positions.

12:50Alex Lowe: It's depth he's got options in the backs he's got loads of sevens obviously I thought he'd move Chessham to six to help fix the line-out issues and add a bit more heft so you could start Alex Cole so they could move Chessham to six England's line-out has not been reliable on their own ball and they're not challenging opposition ball which I think is a weakness I thought that's what he would do all he's done is drop Chessham to the bench again I think a message has been said Ned when we saw Chessham in the fallow week He talked about lack of speed across the ground. Physical intensity. Physical intensity, but also they just weren't moving fast enough.

13:32Alex Lowe: They weren't on it. And I think he's probably paid the price a bit for the line-out shambles too, although it's not on him. But what are the changes? He doesn't have the depth to do anything else.

13:43Alfie Reynolds: He couldn't have changed the props, for example.

13:44Alex Lowe: Can't change the props. Can't change... He can't start Davison and Rod. He switched the hookers around, but all that means is that the worst line-out thrower will now finish the game instead of start the game. Because there is a hooker drop-off. He doesn't have an alternative, number eight, that he really wants to pick.

14:01Alfie Reynolds: He could have had Fisilau, but he dropped him from the squad. Because he probably wanted Cunningham in to train, pretending to be Zuliani, didn't he? Exactly.

14:09Alex Lowe: So he's obviously never going to pick Greg Fisilau at any point, because if he was, this was the game. He obviously doesn't trust Chandler Cunningham South, who's another player who could bring a bit of bop to the team, doesn't even make the 23. So he could have moved things around up front. But I don't think he would have added a huge amount because the depth isn't the same.

14:28Will Kelleher: To go back to the question that I asked you at the start of what's on the line here and to link it to Steve Borthwick directly, what's on the line for him and his England tenure? And actually, we've got a couple of emails on this, which I thought were fairly interesting. So Mark and Simon emailed the ruck at thetimes.co.uk. And Mark said, after watching the calamitous England performance on Saturday, this is the Ireland game. It reminded me of the email I sent last year following the previous defeat by Ireland, where, to be fair, he emailed us and wasn't all that impressed. He said what followed afterwards was a couple of fluke results where Finn Russell left his kicking boots at home and then the French somehow decided to mess up a ridiculous amount of chances.

15:06Will Kelleher: Nothing convinced me that Borthwick was ever the solution up until the win over the All Blacks, which was excellent. However, I still wasn't convinced entirely and thought this bunch of matches would give us a proper gauge as to where England are. We now know exactly where they are and it's a long way off being World Cup contenders. essentially asks, do you think Borthwick should go now before any more damage is done? And just quickly, Simon sent us an email where he said that he feels Borthwick has hit his ceiling with this England team.

15:34Alfie Reynolds: So I find all this really interesting and there's lots of different points we can make here. But I think the first one to make is that almost regardless of what happens on Saturday, Steve Borthwick is not getting sacked. I feel like that's factually true. the RFU don't want to get rid of their head coach they've been desperate to end the kind of boom and bust cycle of head coaches they've spoken publicly about that Bill Sweeney has about the fact that every England head coach ends up in disgrace in some way and football have had that problem too until Southgate kind of changed that a bit didn't he a little bit yeah a little bit

16:10Will Kelleher: maybe not in the eyes of all the fans not by the end probably I'd say but he didn't leave kind of

16:13Alfie Reynolds: in utter disgrace did he? Where most other managers have done. So the next thing and some of that is obvious because there's a five, six day turnaround until they play France in Paris isn't there? So you're not suddenly having a new head coach for that. It's the question, it's the M word we keep coming back to, it's the manner though isn't it? If it goes incredibly badly here and then worse in Paris the next game is Johannesburg which could get incredibly ugly. I personally think, I haven't had this confirmed sort of on background or anything else but i'd be amazed if whatever happens in the next two weeks he would get sacked in april but they would give him the summer and then make it make it take a view but the but the the thing i think is interesting here is that there is a massive disconnect between our readers listeners and the fans against the team and the RFU and their opinion of how bad this is.

17:12Alfie Reynolds: As in the fans? The fans are like, the best thing that could happen this weekend is England lose so we can sack the coach. That's a popular view on social media, which, as we keep saying, it's not the barometer of everything.

17:24Will Kelleher: Yeah, I'll take that with a pinch of salt. But I agree there's plenty of people

17:26Alfie Reynolds: that are not fans of Steve Borthwick. And I think Steve Borthwick generally has a popularity issue outside of the camp, which we could maybe come back to another time. But within the camp there of saying we're still two defeats out of 14, we're not the worst team overnight, we weren't as great as everyone said we were, and we're not as bad as everyone's saying we are. I'm not sure we're saying they're the worst team in the world either. They're resuming this theme of everyone goes to polarities, polarities, polarities, we're all fine, we're all calm and everything else. And look, they win on the weekend, they put Italy away as they often do.

18:00Alfie Reynolds: It calms down a lot, doesn't it? But I think that's interesting, don't you, Alex? That there's this... And look, it's difficult because social media doesn't represent everyone in the public. But I think you can see it come through with the booing of George Ford or Twickenham and things like that. England fans generally, or put it a different way, Steve Borswick doesn't have undivided loyalty or popularity among England supporters. And never has done. And I don't think it ever will, unless he wins the World Cup. I just don't know what it is about him, but he doesn't connect with supporters like other coaches might or could.

18:36Alfie Reynolds: But the RFU are desperate to keep him in post and think he's an incredibly good coach and he's proved that he's got results, hasn't he, in other places and over the last year or so. So I think there's quite a big difference between the England fans who see Steve Borthwick on ITV on the weekend and the people that see him every day and work with him.

18:58Alex Lowe: I think two defeats after a run of 12 wins and not all of those wins were against vintage opposition but they won 12 games in a row and now they've lost two that shouldn't represent a crisis so therefore I don't think the RFU are minded as Will says to do anything what we're looking for is and what we're trying to uncover what we're interested in is the reasons for this for this pretty drastic downturn in the last two weeks because they don't look like a team. They don't look like the same team who played in November. They don't have the intensity or the energy or almost a commitment to the game plan or the accuracy.

19:37Alex Lowe: All those things. It's not like there's one thing that hasn't worked. Like, in the last two games, nothing has worked apart from the scrum. What's the reason for that? Now, that is the only... I think that's the only reason. Let's just say, behind the scenes, there's been a huge rift in the coaching team. I'm not saying there has, but I'm just... hypothetically huge rift in the coaching team or the players a huge rift between the players and the coaches if that is the reason then the RFU would have to act pretty quickly but if it's simply a case of they've got the training balance wrong they've focused too much on breakdown breakdown defence or something and they haven't done enough of anything else that could be rectified and so I do think that this game will tell us a lot about where this team is what's driving them, how much unity is there, how committed are they to the game plan, to the coaches, to each other.

20:34Alex Lowe: So I don't think there's any, just on the basis of the results, I don't think there's any reason to consider that he would get sacked. There's two defeats after 12. It's if there's something deep inside that camp that feels like it can't be rectified, that would then be a reason to take action. But at the moment, there's no evidence.

20:56Alfie Reynolds: And I think it's that manner point we keep coming back to, because it's like, if there's no reaction from Scotland to Ireland, and then there's also no reaction with a completely different team from Ireland to Italy, you on Saturday night writing the match report for the Sunday Times and me on Sunday for Monday are going to start going, well, what's the problem here? You've been punched in the face twice, and you're just unable to respond. that would be the massive issue but as we keep saying, they could win it calms down, the new guys play well and you go, okay fine it was a two game blip

21:30Alex Lowe: The RFU have rolled out Conor O'Shea onto another podcast this week in which the first thing he says is exactly what Will said everyone said we were the best in the world and now we're not it's not a reaction to results we can see know what we see. We know what we saw of this team in 2024 when they were when their only failing was that they couldn't, they fell away in the last 20 minutes. They were in games against the best teams in the world and they couldn't nail it. That was their failing at that point. They solved that problem and they improved the whole, I mean, yes, they did have the bounce of the ball go their way against France and Scotland at the start of last year's Six Nations.

22:19Alex Lowe: But that ball had bounced the opposite way most of the time through 2024.

22:24Alfie Reynolds: They were owed the luck, weren't they?

22:25Alex Lowe: I felt they'd earned it and were owed it. And from there, they used it and got better and better and better to the point where they were in pretty commanding form in November. Yes, the All Blacks aren't vintage. Yes, Australia are not great. Yes, you know that you can catch Argentina cold. Scotland have done the same. And England then weren't great in the last half hour, but did fend them off at the end. And we know what we saw then as well. So it's not just... What's alarming is what we see with our own eyes. And that's why I don't think there's anything particular on the line, sanctions-wise, beyond Saturday.

23:06Alex Lowe: But I think everyone needs to see that there's a reaction and an improvement.

23:13Alfie Reynolds: Can I just give us a little postcard from where we're sitting again? Go on. so a few minutes ago we've had the police walk past the carbinieri yeah i think they are and they've got the poshest handbags you've ever seen they're like these little leather handbags they're about the size of a phone what do they put in there maybe their phone maybe their phone i just thought that was interesting you never see the met police knocking around with that it's like tell me you're in italy without telling me you're in italy the police have got like nice little leather pouches.

23:43Will Kelleher: I'm also confident

23:44Alfie Reynolds: you're not going to be getting

23:45Will Kelleher: this sort of colour and insight on any other rugby podcast from Rome this weekend.

23:50Alfie Reynolds: This is why we go to the places, don't we? We bring you the news from the ground. Well, mainly from the ground, not so much.

23:55Alex Lowe: One of them's coming back. Oh, hang on. They do have very smart trousers as well. Yes, they look great.

24:02Alfie Reynolds: Sorry, I should have said that.

24:07Will Kelleher: Right, look, before we hear from Lewis Liner, let me put this to you. We focus a lot on England and Alex you've rightly said that it's been the manner of the defeats there's a world in which England lose to Scotland and Ireland and it's not this kind of disaster that it currently feels like Italy are a really good team I think that's the other part of this game that England are coming up against an Italian team that are really really good and certainly probably the strongest Italian team they've ever faced is there a world in which therefore Italy win this game and actually England do play well but Italy win because they're a good team and that is acceptable I suppose in in a wider sense?

24:42Will Kelleher: Or is it always going to be...

24:43Alex Lowe: It would be horrific timing for Steve Borthwick to come here with the state that England are in and run into the best Italian team in Six Nations history. It would be awful timing for him and quite possible. We were asked to do match predictions. I mean, anyway, it was easier to construct an argument for why Italy win this game than why England win this game. No, I still think England will find a way to win this game because, and I might be wrong, but I can't believe that they won't have an answer to a lot of the questions that have been asked of them about physicality, intensity, accuracy in attack.

25:23Alex Lowe: Although these guys have never played together, certainly the back line. So, whereas with Italy, they are dangerous in behind, but they are formidable up front. Their scrum, the scrum has been the one area of England's game that's worked really well. They're about to come up against probably the most destructive scrub. I mean, the sight of Tyg Fulon being lifted three feet in the air is one of the images of this championship. Italy are a dangerous team and it's been interesting that the South African coaches were talking this week over in Johannesburg, I think they were, and Felix Jones and Razzi all talking about Italy.

26:08Alex Lowe: and all saying it wouldn't be at all a surprise if they won this game. They see the development that's there, and it is brilliant for the championship. It's been overdue and long-awaited, but it would just be Borthwick's luck to come here with a vulnerable team and run into the strongest Italian team who smell blood. Can I head something off?

26:33Alfie Reynolds: Pre-empt. Go on. so if England lose we will criticise them it will be the first time an England team has ever lost to Italy in 33 33 tests and they will get a hammering from us, from lots of other places and then there will be a section of people who go, oh but it's the best Italy team ever, why don't you give them credit, two things can be true at the same time, this can be a total disaster for England a historic shocking defeat and one of the great days of Italian rugby history we'll try and credit Italy when we do criticise England if it happens but please don't come to us going you're not giving Italy enough credit we know this is an excellent Italy team and actually with Brex and Menoncello in the midfield I think without them they've played 10 tests and only won one of them and And with them, they've played 18 tests and won six more as a partnership.

27:32Alfie Reynolds: So, like, on every metric, they get better when Brex and Manoncellos play. Like, we understand this Italy team is awesome, but it can still be true that England losing to them is a disaster for England.

27:45Alex Lowe: The bookies give Italy a seven-point head start, which I think is a very good bet.

27:52Alfie Reynolds: Tells you a lot, doesn't it, as well? Give England a head start.

27:54Alex Lowe: No, Italy a seven-point head start.

27:56Alfie Reynolds: Sorry, I'm not very good on my betting So that means England are 7 point favourite

28:01Alex Lowe: Yeah

28:03Alfie Reynolds: So they think that Italy Are not going to get within 7 points of England So I was the mug But the bookies have been Very wrong, they said England were going to beat Ireland by 11 points Exactly But I was the mug in the paper who said that Italy were going to win And it was sort of one of those where someone has to say that It's not because

28:20Alex Lowe: As I said, you can construct a stronger argument For why that will happen I think England should have because England's still got the players if they can get their mind right and their accuracy right and their physicality right then England should still win this game the problem is that there's no evidence to suggest that they will because it's also new that's why it's easier to construct the argument for an Italy win because they have to all those questions that have been asked they have to find some positive answers

28:53Will Kelleher: we thought that after Ireland as well yeah no we did absolutely yeah no but I look let's see I mean tell you what we'll get into the Italian camp now we'll come back the other side and round off the other matches but let's have a chat with the former Quinns man he's now playing his rugby at Benetton he's an Italian international it's Lewis Leinor Lewis great to see you

29:13Louis Lynagh: thanks so much for your time how's things? yeah no thank you for having me on guys it's been good we've had a good week's training you know the sun's come out compared to you know the Scotland game and we're hoping that it's not a torrential downpour against England. But no, it's been really good. Enjoyed a enjoyable week, good amount of training. And yeah, just really looking forward to the weekend ahead.

29:33Will Kelleher: Yeah, Will, we were saying earlier that our other away trip so far, this Six Nations has been in Edinburgh, and it was absolutely freezing. And then we've got here to Rome, and it's like spring, sunshine, walking around in T-shirts. We love it.

29:44Alfie Reynolds: And also, so you guys in the hotel you're in now, so we've legged it across town from where we were for the first half of the pod. It's quite funky in here. I was going to say, yeah.

29:51Louis Lynagh: Yeah, I know. They've done a revamp of the lobby. It's like fake marble statues and all that sort of stuff. It's very Italian. It's nice, though. I think this is the hotel the Italian team's always been at. So it's only my second Six Nations. It's my first full Six Nations. Yeah, of course, because you got injured last year. Yeah, so I missed last year and then made my debut two years ago, but I only had two games of it. So it's been pretty cool to hopefully have the rest of the Six Nations ahead and get a full campaign under the belt.

30:21Will Kelleher: And how is Italian life? Obviously, our listeners and readers will know you well from your days at Quinn's. You've been playing for Benhamton. And Hampton School. And Hampton. Don't forget that. Will always has to get in that you went to the same school.

30:32Alfie Reynolds: He went to the school I went to quite a bit after me, though. Let's make that clear. How old are you, 26? 25. 25, oh, gosh. Okay, yeah. Quite a lot after me then. Alumni.

30:44Will Kelleher: Were you there whilst Lewis was there? I don't think so. When was that? I left in 2010.

30:50Louis Lynagh: I just missed you. I came in at 2013, I think, 2014. 2013, yeah.

30:56Alfie Reynolds: Gosh, so that makes me feel really old. So that means that basically when I was leaving university, you joined school. Basically, yeah. And now you're playing in the Six Nations against England. Like, come on. That's not fair, is it? Well, we have to accept we're getting old.

31:09Louis Lynagh: I'm getting to the point where in my career, I'm getting dangerously close to being seen as the older side of the spectrum. Already? Yeah, because I've got, you know, Edo Todaro was in the team. He's 2006. It's a disgrace, isn't it? It's horrible. I'm like, my brother's obviously, one of my brothers, 2006. I'm like, surely he's got to still be in school. Like, it's so weird.

31:31Will Kelleher: But how is it over here in Italy and living here? I mean, obviously, you know, you've got your Italian heritage. It's a country you know well. But how have you found that whole change? Big change, I suppose.

31:41Louis Lynagh: Yeah, no, it was pretty tough last year. You know, it was my first foreign move. yeah it was a bit it was a bit tough you know having to learn a whole new style of playing you know coming from the academy into the quince out playing for quince for so many years you're used to you know a certain style of play and when that completely flips it's difficult and you know injury halfway through the season didn't help but this season I've kind of found my just new new new leaf almost like new and it's been great Italian life is very different to London life if I can tell you that, especially where I live in Treviso.

32:14Louis Lynagh: It's like completely the opposite of London. I live in the countryside with my granddad. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's really cool. It's really cool.

32:23Alfie Reynolds: Describe the scene. Like whereabouts does he live?

32:26Louis Lynagh: So Treviso, if you imagine Treviso, you're looking at it from bird's eye view. You go to the right of it slightly, about 10 minutes down the road, and it's there. So it's just a house literally in the middle of a field. Wow, okay. It's like a farmhouse. Dirt road off a road. Amazing. Dirt road, and at the end of the road, there's the house. So it's awesome. And that's the house me and my family always used to go on holiday to. So it's like as a foreign move goes, it wasn't as hard as it could be. It's like a second home to me.

32:58Alfie Reynolds: Because your mum's Italian, right? Yes. To explain to our listeners.

33:00Louis Lynagh: Yeah, mum's fully Italian, so I'm half Italian. And obviously, the Australian side is my dad's side. But yeah, I've lent into that heritage a lot more now that I've moved in. moved to Italy and you know I've always my first language was Italian so it's you know it wasn't anything new it's just it's just now I'm feeling more Italian if anything and so when you come

33:22Alfie Reynolds: into the Italian setup as I guess in inverted commas a foreigner even though you're not yes yeah like what's the what's the sort of it's probably too old school to call it like the initiation thing but what's the different thing about joining the Italian squad yeah it's I get

33:37Louis Lynagh: Nothing bad. It's just like, you know, there's not cliques, but there's the foreign group, you know, the people who have like a half of Italian.

33:46Alfie Reynolds: Like Paolo Doggo, for example.

33:48Louis Lynagh: Paolo Doggo, Matt Gallagher, Steve Varney, Monti Ioani. It's like we're all very, very close as an entire team, but then you have your like best mates in here and stuff like that. And, you know, coming in, first of all, it really helped that I could understand Italian fully. I couldn't speak it fully, but the fact that I could understand everything that's being said to me, it helped not only off the field but definitely on the field as well because i knew what they were saying to me and stuff like that so i think as a new person as a foreign inverted commas a foreigner kind of took to the group a bit easier than a lot of other people would have and i wasn't that kind of i didn't want to be that kind of guy you know half italian half australian coming in from playing in the prem coming into this group and kind of trying to be the big uh like the loud mouth sort of guy just kind of you know tried to make some friends and now it's now it's really good I feel really into especially moving to Benetton it's really helped me being integrated

34:42Alfie Reynolds: into that Italian side of of of the team and how did it turn around in your mind because there was a different path you could have taken wasn't there like you I think am I right in saying four years ago you were traveling reserve for some England games yeah well it was it was traveling reserve

34:57Louis Lynagh: for the France game in Stade de France when they won. So I was traveling reserved for that. 2022? 2022, yeah.

35:05Alfie Reynolds: So when France won the Grand Slam?

35:07Louis Lynagh: So as you can imagine, the atmosphere was rocking and I was like, geez, this is what international Six Nations rugby is like.

35:14Alfie Reynolds: Because obviously you grew up in southwest London, you went to the school we talked about and you were on that pathway through the pathway, weren't you? The 18s and the 20s, right?

35:24Louis Lynagh: Yes, yeah, 16s, 18s, all that sort of stuff. It's like, yeah, you know, it was definitely what I saw myself doing at that period in time. You know, I was in the squads. I got on with Eddie really well. I got on with a lot of the guys in the squad while I was playing some good rugby, obviously still very young. And yeah, at that period in my life, that's what I saw myself going into. And, you know, unfortunately, a knee injury kind of rerouted that. but I couldn't be happier where I've ended up. If you told me my Six Nations debut would be with Italy, scoring a try against Scotland and the first win at home for Italy in eight years or something like that in the Six Nations, I mean, I would get me there right now.

36:10Louis Lynagh: So it's, you know, yeah, obviously I'm very fortunate that I had the opportunity to possibly play for three different nations but Italy is the one that happened to be and I couldn't be happier.

36:22Will Kelleher: that's quite a unique path into your international rugby isn't it as you say there was always loads of talk of you know who are you going to choose and where are you going to play your international rugby but to have been a traveling reserve for England to now be playing for Italy for you know facing England this weekend it's quite it's quite a story it's quite a path yes yeah well the more

36:38Louis Lynagh: I haven't really thought about it that much about that but when you say it's like yeah it's you know I doubt many other people have the same the same path and all the same you know stories to tell it's It's amazing. I was basically, I was a room next door to Marcus, who I'm going to be playing. Marcus and Caden, some of my really good mates at Quinn's and were still good mates and still talk a lot. So it's like, it's weird, very weird, but it's going to be a lot. I feel like it's going to be a lot of fun. Not during the game, probably, because we're going to be enemies for 80 minutes. But it's, yeah, it's, you know, I've taken a lot of my learnings and my memories from that time in the English pathway.

37:22Louis Lynagh: And, you know, being in that England team, you know, you know, it's regarded as one of the best setups in the world, if not the best, you know, the facilities, the coaching, the players. I kind of owe Eddie quite a bit, you know, first of all, bringing me into that environment. But there was this conversation we had, I'm pretty sure it was the week of Italy that in the 22 Six Nations, you know, I'm kind of in and out. I'm getting close to the score he's like look this week you're really close this week but we decided to go another way but like he sat me down you know how Penny Hill has that little ledge there

37:51Alfie Reynolds: you're sitting there on the side of the pit yeah yeah yeah behind the post yeah and he was like

37:56Louis Lynagh: like I just want you like next week be like just like spread your wings a bit and show who you really are and you know from that moment Foy kind of clicked in my head and I trained really well the next few weeks I got really really close and you know who knows what would have happened if I didn't get injured but you know that's life and now I'm here so it's are you allowed to sing both anthems is that I won't be doing that sadly no I got very close well when we played Australia in the autumn I was very very close to doing it famous father and brother who played against

38:31Alfie Reynolds: the Lions for Australia yes that must pull on the heartstrings as well when you have a game like

38:35Louis Lynagh: that god I was I was I was really I was really sad I couldn't make it to any of the games because pre-season I was having to do stuff but watching was so hard. I've never had that feeling before because obviously Tom was the, I'd been the first one to play internationally and Tom was the next one and I now kind of felt like what my parents must have been feeling like all these years is sitting at home not being able to do anything and we were chatting before the pod that it'd be great to one day all three of us play in one team.

39:06Alfie Reynolds: Because you're a younger brother Nick, right? who is over at the Reds

39:10Louis Lynagh: he's also just gone to the Reds he's been playing some development games for them already he doesn't know who he's going to play for yet or if he gets a chance to play for them but I'm trying to convince both of them to come back to Italy you never know what might happen in the future but that's one thing for certain I will do everything possible to eventually play at least a year with them because like you were saying watching him play for Australia I'm like if I could just I wish I could put it in some nice holes yes exactly and I could you know keep people away from him or try to I'm not the biggest

39:44Alfie Reynolds: so tell us a bit about the differences then between being in an England set up and an Italian set up like what makes the Italian set up so different and unique and special when you're in it whether that's tactically emotionally technically whatever

39:59Louis Lynagh: I would say the food

40:01Alfie Reynolds: but the food tactically or culinary

40:04Louis Lynagh: but the food there at the England South is on otherworldly god Chef Tom was unbelievable he's famous now as well isn't he have you seen the Instagram I keep finding them at the wrong time after I'm really tired I'm just oh my god cooked a whole roast pig he's up at 2am making bread I love that

40:26Alfie Reynolds: story the big differences between the set ups are food

40:32Louis Lynagh: more espresso yeah he's had a lot more coffee yeah no it's um you know without going into too much detail of what we do here it's like i would say because i must have i was quite young when i was in the club so i wasn't quite like in with the group yet so but here like i was saying i feel like i'm very integrated in the group and i feel like i'm not one of the big dogs in inverted commas but like it's nice to be able to joke around and i think we're a very very tight group here and it's It helps that almost half the team all play for the same team, whether it's Benetton or Zebre in Parma. So that really, really helps.

41:10Louis Lynagh: You've got brothers playing in the team. You've got best friends playing in the team, people who've played together since they were 14. And especially since Gonzalo came in, the team's got even tighter. And then on top of that, passion that Italy's always been known for. I think we've got that extra layer of detail. and it's really showing in how we play. And, you know, everyone's so surprised and stuff. But as a team, you know, it's been sort of building for the last two years since the Six Nations two years ago. And it's, you know, I'm not saying it's culminating because I still think there's a lot more that we can achieve.

41:51Louis Lynagh: So I think, yeah, definitely the differences are there's two teams that are very historically, you know, different so far. You know, England's been this top of world rugby for God knows how many years. Italy is now just, you know, finally starting to get that recognition. I couldn't be prouder to be part of the team.

42:10Will Kelleher: And an extension of that, Lewis, you mentioned earlier that your debut for Italy, you scored a try, you beat Scotland. And then the next week you went and beat Wales, which there can't be too many Italian players, I would imagine. Certainly in kind of recent history before that, that their first two games in the Six Nations, they had won both of them. and we were saying earlier, weren't we Will, that this is a really, I think, fun time for us to come and cover this Italian team because of the strength and the position you guys are in. So for someone like yourself and many of the other players in their team, is there something in it that you guys don't have the baggage of previous teams where they struggled to win games and you're used to winning, you're used to competing and absolutely testing these teams, going toe-to-toe with them?

42:52Louis Lynagh: Yeah, I think it's definitely a strength being the underdog in this situation, but also it's kind of a grating feeling. We're kind of like, yes, we are the underdogs, but we really don't want to be that. We deserve a lot more respect, and that's what I think is finally showing through. It's like we're not only getting the one-off win anymore. We beat Australia in the autumn, came very close to South Africa. We beat Scotland very close against Ireland. We gave France a good game. so it's like it's we're not just here to you know have a good time it's it's it's pretty serious and like you were saying it's the first my first two games you know two two from tom's like what's going on it's almost not relevant all that and then and then it's actually he's like i lost 100 tests for italy come on that's not i came at the wrong i came at the wrong era no it's and but it's actually funny you say that because then obviously i missed the next last year's six nation of injury this was my next my first game so this game we won against Scotland this year it was 3 from 3 for me that's true yeah and then we lost sorry it ended that's alright though yeah no it's still 3 from 4 is alright it's still positive you know in the ratio but it's no I'll hopefully you know make it it would be 4 from 2 yeah 4 from 5 4 from 5 pretty good

44:11Will Kelleher: and have you guys spoken at all about the being the first Italian team to beat England has that come into conversations or is it more focused on, you know, what you would do normally for any game?

44:23Louis Lynagh: Yeah, I think a big focus of ours has just been, you know, just focused on ourselves. There's a lot of noise, you know, there's a lot of noise about what's happened to this England team and stuff like that. And we know for a fact that, you know, as much as rugby players want to keep it to themselves and not listen to the noise, it's impossible not to, you know, see what's going on outside of the team. and that England team's definitely going to be coming in to get a bounce-back result and we know it's going to be a hell of a game, a really, really tough game. This England team's one of the best.

44:54Louis Lynagh: Are they third or fourth in the world?

44:56Alfie Reynolds: They've dropped a little bit, so they're fourth or fifth now. It depends on what you do to them on the weekend.

45:02Louis Lynagh: No, but they're still a top five team in the world, almost a whole team with world-class players and it's never going to be an easy game. So we've just focused on ourselves, you know, what we can do to get our jobs right. And hopefully we execute the game plan like we did against Scotland in the last home game. And hopefully we come away with the win.

45:21Alfie Reynolds: I've got three players to ask you about. Firstly, Brex and Menoncello just seem like a dream to play outside. Can you give us a bit of detail about how good they are? We all see their partnership being so amazing. But for you as a wing, just how much can they help facilitate for you and the rest of the backs?

45:39Louis Lynagh: Yeah, no, I mean, they're an incredible center partnership. You know, when I came in two years ago, there was kind of the start of this, the hype train, as you would call it, of those two. And, you know, it's very warranted. Tommy is, you know, I think he's a year or two younger than me. Yeah, he's only like 23, isn't he? He's 23, yeah. It's mental. He's already got like 35 calves. I'm like, what am I doing? No, it's, you know, he's a machine. Very, what you see is the physicality, the dominant carries, but he's also one of the fittest in the team, very, very hardworking. And, you know, having Nacho outside him, who's, you know, Tommy's also a very good ball player, but Nacho is the ball player out of those two.

46:19Louis Lynagh: And him being able to, you know, with all of the experience he's had playing a lot of games and especially in the Six Nations, but being able to put him through the gaps. And a player like Tommy, it's a bit like, I equal it to what I've experienced, like Andre at Quinns. Yes, he's this man. Decent comparison. like not as tall as him but like this game breaking sort of you have to put two people on him minimum otherwise he's making gain line um and that just opens up the space for everyone out the back and like for me when I was at Quinns that would be my dream because Marcus would get in and then he has the choice between putting me for a gap putting Tyrone for a gap and it's

46:56Alfie Reynolds: exactly like that here it's well the stats back you up actually because we I was I asked for some numbers on this and Menoncello has the best game line dominance of any centre in world rugby since the beginning of 2025 well there you go and he commits I think it is two defenders with something like three quarters of his carries which is sensational really isn't it yeah so that's what

47:19Louis Lynagh: I mean that's what you're saying yeah he facilitates you and it's great because it facilitates the rest of the team and you know even when they put two or three people he still somehow you know makes a It's a pretty decent dent. And it's not only the attack, the defense. They work very, very well together. Nacho's kind of an older brother-like figure to Tommy, I can kind of say. It's kind of a mentor to the prodigy almost. And now they're kind of at the same level. So it's, especially in the defensive side, defending outside Nacho, it's a bit like defending outside Joe Marchant at Quinn's. It was just like, all I had to do was follow him and he would tackle anything that moved.

47:57Louis Lynagh: so I'm just like yep yep you got him you got him you just see Natcha just fly out and chop him so it's no it's a dream to be able to play outside to world class players and you know all I've got to do is my job and then kind of get the fruits from their labours so yeah you know hopefully they put me through a few they also had the capilla like we saw against Ireland Tommy makes the line break and you know gives me the ball hopefully it won't be forward this time but was it that's the good yes exactly

48:31Alfie Reynolds: the other guy I was going to ask you about quickly was obviously Caden who you've played so much with and now are facing like how fun and strange is that in both ways I guess you've never played against him would you ever I've never I'm trying to think because I don't I don't know Benetton would have no no I've played against him once at school

48:51Louis Lynagh: Hampton versus Bishop's Wordsworth in his final year get in yeah you knew that didn't you

48:58Alfie Reynolds: I genuinely didn't

48:59Louis Lynagh: very tight game I'm pretty sure pretty sure so the last time

49:03Alfie Reynolds: you played him was a school match now at 6 '9 how cool is that

49:05Louis Lynagh: yeah he was 18 I was 16 or 17 I think cool that was literally the last time the only other time he didn't have the tash then no he was very fresh faced long hair really long hair as well but no it's the only time I would have faced him otherwise would be in training you know opposite each other but no it's like you said it's going to be really fun

49:24Alfie Reynolds: We just know each other's games so well. Yeah. You would have worked together to win that Prem title. Yes, exactly.

49:28Louis Lynagh: And then obviously Marcus coming off the bench. It's... I know, I know for a fact, if I get like tackled by one of them, it's going to be facing the ground. Some sort of tie the shoelaces at the bottom of the rug. It's going to be great fun. And I've actually, you know, hopefully going to meet up with them for a coffee tomorrow. You know, just to catch up and, you know, So I'm trying to get them to go a bit easy on me. But no, it's going to be great fun. And, you know, he's definitely deserved that spot. And I'm so happy for him to be able to get the chance he did last year when he made his debut.

50:05Louis Lynagh: Unfortunately, he's, you know, a few injuries in and out of the squad. But I'm so happy to, you know, for him to now be in this position. And I hope he plays well. But obviously, I hope we, you know, win.

50:17Alfie Reynolds: Last one for me. So what's the pitch that Italy are going to win? How are you going to do it? And how cool will it be if you do?

50:25Louis Lynagh: I guess we know that we talked about before the pod, the scrum is going to be a massive factor. We said Fischetti and Ferrari and Genji and Joe Hayes, they're the four best props statistically in the tournament. So I know they're very up for the challenge. and I'm sure Genji and Hazy are too. And I think that's going to be where the game's won and lost, I would say. Who can get set-piece dominance? Because, you know, we've both got very strong sides, very quick, very skillful backs. It just depends who can win that sort of go-forward and physicality battle. So I think if we get that right, like we did against Scotland, I think there'll be some better rugby being played as well, hopefully.

51:12Louis Lynagh: Better weather, let's say. Yeah, better weather, which means we can chuck the ball around a bit. but I genuinely think that's where the game will be won and lost for both sides I think whoever can get the most physicality and dominance going early as well that'll determine that I think it'll be quite a narrow scoring game I think it'll be a back and forth obviously I want to say we'll win with a bonus point 40-38, that was quite a good score for you on the Prem Final

51:39Alfie Reynolds: maybe we could do that, I'll score twice again

51:43Louis Lynagh: no but genuinely um it's going to be a great test and i i'm really looking forward to it

51:48Will Kelleher: uh lewis we really appreciate your time we've got to let you go final question you said you're living with your granddad that must that must throw up all sorts of challenges from a diet point of view as an athlete living with your italian granddad well it's actually brilliant

52:02Louis Lynagh: because i i have a meal plan and i kind of go and buy what i need and he's very very chill so he's like you just cook what you need and if i like it then i'll have some if not he kind of sorts himself out but he's actually we're very similar in the respect that we both like to have our own time to chill like i'm literally there's two rooms and he's got his office i've got my office next door redo our own thing and then like i poke my head in i'm like oh do you want some dinner

52:29Will Kelleher: okay i'll start cooking i see i was i envisioned like he's cooking up just unreal pasta dishes or that sort of thing. You're doing the cooking. Well, yeah, I say unreal.

52:37Louis Lynagh: You know, he still judges my cooking. And then all of a sudden, he's like, I make a salmon and he's like, I'm all right tonight. My mum comes the next day, she makes salmon. And he's like, yeah, he has like half the salmon. I'm like, what? It's like, no, clearly mum's cooking still better than mine. You'll get there, you're all right. I'll get there, yeah.

52:55Will Kelleher: Look, mate, all the best this weekend. Really appreciate you joining us.

52:58Louis Lynagh: Thank you very much, guys. Cheers.

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54:27Will Kelleher: Great to have Lewis Liner on the pod. So round four, the other matches, Ireland-Wales on Friday, Scotland-France, the early game on Saturday. To start with Ireland-Wales on the Friday night, the intriguing thing I think off the back of Ireland's win against England was the question that I've seen a lot was, was this a turning point for Ireland? This ageing team, this team that were going backwards, was this the match that was the turning point and they're going to build again? As I say, time will tell, we don't know yet, but what do you think for where this Ireland team are?

54:55Alfie Reynolds: So the first thing to say, I guess, was that it was an epic show of Andy Farrell's coaching, wasn't it? To get that emotional response out of...

55:03Will Kelleher: Of man management, I think.

55:04Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, man management, getting the best out of his team when it still might be true that they're fading a little bit or some of their better players are fading. And then you go, Gibson Park doesn't look like he's fading, does he? He was amazing. So that's the first thing to say. And it was an epic victory, the best ever win at Twickenham. Awesome. the one thing that I'm thinking about and like Irish people be listening to this being like gosh you never give them credit you said they were tired and knackered and then now they're not going to be brilliant after this are they either but the thing that I'm intrigued about is that or the danger for Ireland is that that was a it was a brilliant peak and the fade still continued the long fade still continues if they can't replace Bundiaki properly if they can't replace Gibson to park in a couple of years properly if they can't replace furlong etc etc etc and my theory here is that when we get to the 27 world cup we'll look at the squad the wider 33 and say it was a it's a weaker group than 2023 group what do we think about that yeah i i think i'd agree with that doesn't mean they won't go further but man to man i think the squads will look quite different

56:14Will Kelleher: yeah at the moment you feel like that is probably going to be the case because they've also left their regeneration quite late in the cycle which we're only just seeing the start of at the moment and some of the players

56:23Alfie Reynolds: that are coming through now are still old themselves like McCloskey he's over 30 isn't he

56:27Alex Lowe: but he's young internationally it's like and he's a bit of he's a bit unbelievable he's been amazing one of the players at the tournament you almost like what what kind of a job has Andy Farrell done management wise with him having not picked him for 10 years essentially because he had Henshaw and he had Aki he's now managed to get McCloskey playing like he is you know a Northern Hemisphere Damien De Allende, like he's been unbelievable and I think that you're right in that the Ireland squad at the next World Cup, man for man won't be as strong as the last World Cup, but I just, there's something about the way that Farrell manages his players and gets performances, you know the way that he chose to react after Paris and Paris was really poor, France were good but Ireland were poor and they panicked under pressure and he you can't do it all the time but he decided he came out and he fired some shots immediately like within minutes he'd already decided what he's going to say and he questioned the he questioned them publicly um for their lack of intent and fight he said i never thought i'd see one of my teams lacking fight and intent and then he dropped a load of them for the italy game which was a risk um and just to connect to the start of the pod i you I don't know if he did this, but I just wonder whether there's a slight element of Borthwick following the Farrell route.

57:49Alex Lowe: In his own way, he's given them a roasting behind the scenes. He hasn't said it publicly in anywhere near the same way as Farrell did. And then he's dropped a whole load of them for the Italy game, which is exactly what Farrell did. And they got a bit lucky in that game. I maintain that the try that was chalked off for Italy should have stood. It was done for a forward pass that I don't think was a forward pass. And Italy just, they gave them a bloody nose, couldn't quite knock them over. Italy, Ireland come out of that game, come to Twickenham and look a million dollars. They look smart, they look tactically brilliant, technically really well coached.

58:32Alex Lowe: He engineered a reaction. It's brilliant coaching. And so he does have a team where there'll be youngsters who won't be at their peak and there'll be veterans who will be beyond their peak at the next World Cup. But it'll then come down to Farrell's coaching. And I'm fascinated to see what he can draw out of them because I wouldn't bet against him drawing out something. Last Welsh win in Dublin?

58:57Alfie Reynolds: What were you saying? Ooh, good question. I just looked it up while Alex was giving his excellent answer. Which I was listening to. Was that long, was it? No, no.

59:08Will Kelleher: A fair while ago, I'm presuming.

59:10Alfie Reynolds: Okay, so 2015 World Cup warm-up match, which sort of doesn't count. Doesn't count. And before then, 2012. Wow, really? So Grand Slam winning Wales. Wow, okay. Yeah, and the last Wales win anywhere was 2012-21, where Wales nearly won the title, and they had Peter Romani sent off in COVID with no one in the ground at Merlion Stadium. So it's not a happy hunting ground for Wales. and Wales are buoyed a bit by the way they performed and the way we got closer to Scotland,

59:40Will Kelleher: but they're going to get put away, you'd think. You feel like that Scotland game was their shot, wasn't it? And they landed more than a couple of blows, but I personally feel like that was their opportunity. Maybe Italy, we don't know.

59:52Alfie Reynolds: And then they've got the Italians to avoid going for the triple spoon. Yeah. No triple crowns anymore, it's triple spoons. But it's so new context all the time of Wales, isn't there? because you go, they are actually feeling like they're in a better place than they started this tournament. However, they are probably going to still lose all the games again.

1:00:11Will Kelleher: Yeah, and you'd expect them to lose. But if, again, you see some green shoots in performance and individual performances, then there might be something for them to take away from it. But, yeah, for me, Wales have kind of thrown their shots. Let's finish off. Huge game, this. Can't believe in a way that it's taken us so long to get onto it. But Scotland, France. Are Scotland about to make Super Saturday a hell of a lot more interesting? Do you know what? You look at their team.

1:00:33Alfie Reynolds: so they've brought back Kinghorn and Graham particularly haven't they in the back three and you actually now start looking across their I mean you've done this in previous years I suppose as well but you start looking across their 23 and you go that's a proper side isn't it really and I'm not saying that with like faint praise really it looks like a more cohesive more well thought out and well put together 23 than the England 23 like if you're just looking through it so you've got Schoeman, Turner Darcy Ray maybe Darcy Ray is not quite the force that Xander Fagerson is Gregor Brown Cummings Fagerson Matt at 6 Dodge and then Dempsey back having basically been ruled out of the tournament like what a recovery that is then the back line looks fantastic White Russell Tupolotu Jones Stane Graham Kinghorn I mean bringing Kinghorn in is like a guy that never loses any games the Toulouse and the Lion and all that and then Ashman Sutherland Fagerson Xander Fagerson bench Gilchrist Freddie Douglas Bayless, Horn, Tom Jordan as a very handy 23-shirt.

1:01:34Alfie Reynolds: It's a much better bench, isn't it? Which is interesting. However, you look at the France team and you go, hold my beer, don't you?

1:01:40Will Kelleher: Oh, OK. Well, that's the thing. I still go back to the point that I think I made on Monday's pod of can Scotland put France under serious pressure? The sort of pressure they haven't been under yet in this championship. And I think France will have the answers to those questions that get posed to them because I think they're, as we've seen, like a brilliant outfit. But that's what I'm hoping Scotland are able to do. And then also, I suppose the other thing that I would mention is Scotland have kind of really pushed back on the whole narrative of they always just get up for England and they don't back it up.

1:02:09Will Kelleher: I know they beat Wales, but, you know, it wasn't exactly a convincing performance. It wasn't a convincing performance. I would be saying, all right, here you go. Show it then. This is it. This is where your champion, this is what gives you a shot at the title. Yeah. At home.

1:02:24Alfie Reynolds: Definitely. Because it's funny, isn't it? Like, Scotland could still end the tournament going, couldn't they? having to this point you're like oh lost to Italy recovered looking alright but then you go if you get hit for six by France and then Ireland it's like same as usual then

1:02:41Will Kelleher: by the end of it they could have had kind of everything couldn't they and the total utter disaster the coach is going to be sacked after week one the brilliance of beating England just about getting through Wales but alright you're bubbling away you're giving yourselves a chance at something and then oh it could just fizzle out or who knows they are as you just run through the team they're good enough to beat you

1:02:59Alfie Reynolds: I think I want to keep... I'm still finding Louis Bialbarre just totally remarkable. I feel like we've not really spoken about him as much as we could have done on the last few pods. But is it eight tries in eight consecutive Six Nations games? Like, absolutely. He scored in every game of last season. And he scored in every game this season. The bloke's, like, not even... He's, what, 23? He's absolutely incredibly good.

1:03:23Will Kelleher: I think the biggest thing that I would say for him at the moment, and let me be clear he's not a better player than De Pont but I think people at the moment are more excited for when he gets the ball than necessarily which it was always De Pont previously of what's he going to do and I think BLBRA at the moment is the guy that in that France team I'm like I want to see him with his hands on the ball

1:03:42Alex Lowe: he's definitely he's a better player than Henry Arundel but the difference is that England could they could have have a player with the same attacking X factor the pace that Arundel has is unreal and yet we did not see it at all because the way that England play was so stodgy that they could never create and Borthe will say yellow cards but the way that France play the way they play off transition they're prepared to run it from deep they keep it alive it's very Toulouse, very Bordeaux and so they create opportunities France-Ireland game BLB are scoring they're attacking from half way and he's skinning Stockdale in no space.

1:04:30Alex Lowe: But England aren't attacking from there. So it's not just that he's brilliant, but France are allowing him to maximise how dangerous he can be in a way that at the moment England aren't doing with their equivalent player.

1:04:45Alfie Reynolds: I feel like we could do an hour on this, but isn't that inherent to almost like the culture, the DNA? Definitely. to have a pop, have a go that kind of Thomas Ramos spirit like it might not come off but we're going to try it whereas England's always like what do the stats say?

1:05:04Alex Lowe: Long term listeners will remember Ben Pegner came on our pod a year ago to look at the Ireland-France game and I was talking to him in the week about exactly this kind of contrast and he was making the point to me that it is about DNA because it's England play to set up the next ruck to then attack from to then set up the next ruck. But every ruck allows a defence chance to set. France.

1:05:31Alfie Reynolds: What if there are no rucks?

1:05:33Alex Lowe: Yeah, but that's how Toulouse play. It's that mindset of keep the ball moving, keep the ball alive, go forward. If you can't go forward, move the ball and find somewhere else to go forward.

1:05:43Alfie Reynolds: You wrote about this last year off the back of that chat with Ben Pegler, didn't you? And the Pierre Villepreux thing. Yeah, and that's it. And I remember you saying that some of Toulouse or a lot of Toulouse's training where in Anglo-Saxon rugby training starts with a breakdown or a set piece. They go, right, line out on your own 22, da-da-da. Whereas a lot of French training or Toulouse training starts with open play. Yeah. Because it's like, well, we don't want to be dominated by breakdowns or rucks. We want to just play. Yeah. And if it breaks down, literally that's what that phrase means.

1:06:15Alfie Reynolds: And you look at... Let me go again.

1:06:16Alex Lowe: I mentioned earlier about how the South African coaches have been studying the Six Nations. They're all talking about what France are doing, how France have evolved their tactics and we talked about at the start of the Championship I thought it was a major risk dropping Damien Penault for example or how stupid does that look?

1:06:31Alfie Reynolds: Especially when he's advertising the sexy new king. Have you seen that on Instagram?

1:06:35Alex Lowe: But because they've embraced they've evolved their tactics and their selections and Instagram clips don't tell you everything but with England we've had a lot of Henry Pollock squatting in the gym because they haven't really got anything else to... There's been a lot of France with Galtier right in the middle of practising, winning the contestable kicks, scooping up the crumbs off the floor, and then attacking from there. And it's all dynamic training. And that's how the French think of the game. And that stat that Charlie Morgan put in the paper about how 13 of France's 18 tries, they haven't had a ruck in the opposition 22, that's because that's how they play.

1:07:17Alex Lowe: whereas England are playing to get in the 22 and then trying to score but can't because there's 15 defenders in the way it is culturally really different and at the moment the France way is so obviously the predominant way the way you need to try and play rugby

1:07:31Will Kelleher: So to push you then to finish I said, are Scotland about to set up a very different Super Saturday to say a French slam? What do you reckon? I think it'd be not mad but I can't

1:07:44Alfie Reynolds: You can't see past France I can't make an argument to say that Scotland are going to beat France however it's happened before because sometimes France just forget

1:07:51Alex Lowe: it would be really good for this championship if it at least went to the last day like France could win the title at Murrayfield and then slam against England that could happen and that would be a shame so for that reason wouldn't it be awesome if Scotland could peak twice in a Six Nations beat France and then it's all on last day it would be wicked

1:08:15Will Kelleher: yeah it would be next pod for you from Rome is going to be on Saturday Stadio Olimpico after Italy against England what are we going to be reporting on there aren't too many times that a group of journalists would have been probably asking themselves that ahead of that picture I haven't no looking forward to it

1:08:29Alfie Reynolds: I would get ready and anyone else who's never been for a very long walk from the road I have heard that to the front door yeah I've been told that it's genuinely about two kilometres seriously fine fun with all the kit and also I mean this is a historical point but outside the bit where you get drops off for the cowboy, you come out of the train or whatever, is a big column to Mussolini, which is always a bit arresting, I think. Interesting. You're like, okay, have we not taken that down? Varied history. All right, well, I'll look forward. A lot of history around here, mate. Yeah, look forward to all of that.

1:09:02Alfie Reynolds: Something really old.

1:09:03Will Kelleher: Thank you very much for listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

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