Can England finally win in Edinburgh?

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1:31Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times, where we are in Edinburgh. Boots are on the ground north of the border, ahead of a huge Calcutta Cup match on Saturday. I'm Alfie Reynolds, and alongside me in our hotel is Will Kelleher and Alex Lowe. All right, boys?

1:48Alex: I've just been sleeted on. Is that the right way of phrasing it? I was going to say, snow boots on the ground in Edinburgh. So I just got off the train. You flew up, Alex. I got the train. was quite delayed because it's very wet everywhere around the uk isn't it and that was a choice that was a choice yeah yeah no no no no i actually quite enjoy getting the train and um walked along princess street and got absolutely dumped on by sleet so it was like a proper welcome to edinburgh

2:12Alfie: yeah we've been steadily arriving throughout the day so i arrived i had a crack of dawn not even crack of dawn like still dark flight early this morning so i've been up here killing time and have just been wandering around edinburgh getting rained on sporadically but it makes me feel like

2:27Alex: We'll get right stuck into it. It's not going to be an easy weekend, this, is it? No. Whatever the form, whatever the situation Townsend and the Scotland team are in, it's going to be... It actually looks quite clear on Saturday, but you just don't feel like ever coming up here in recent years is easy and it's just going to be a cakewalk, do you?

2:47Alfie: No, well, that's one of the things that struck me earlier when I was walking around was, yeah, this feels like all those Calcutta Cup matches that I've watched on TV over the years when England come up here and it's horrible and the weather's grim and the game is kind of a fascinating but a reflection of that, that it felt like that is what's in store. As you say, on Saturday it is clearer but we'll see what gets... So far. Yeah, exactly. We'll see what kind of gets... Have you been to Murrayfield before? No, never.

3:13Alex: Have you never been? Okay.

3:14Alfie: No, I've been to Edinburgh loads of times but I've never actually been up here When was the first time you would have been, Alex?

3:18Will: First time, I think, was Ben Young's England debut. Okay.

3:23Alex: 2010?

3:23Will: 10, yeah.

3:24Alex: coming on for Ugo on the wing on the wing yeah and that was filthy and it has pretty much always been filthy so I think my first one obviously had been to Edinburgh but first actual Murrayfield was I used to write for the Scottish Daily Mail and uh as a sort of secondment thing from the London office and it was Eddie Jones's first game 2016 first game of the Six Nations you would have been there as well working for the Times or Press Association Times Times and that was another horrid day. 59, I think it was. No, that would have, that was Lancaster's first game in the snow. Yeah, yeah. 2012 that was with a Farrell's debut.

4:02Will: Oh yeah, you're right. Cause he had successive charge downs.

4:05Alex: Yeah. In Italy and Scotland. So, and I remember the one thing I remember about Murrayfield was that it's built up as this hugely hostile environment. And that's a phrase people have used all week. And I remember being like dead quiet. And that was an era where Scotland were not, we're not very good and it's changed. and actually in the intervening decade they've sold out lots and the atmosphere's got a lot better but i remember actually almost being a bit disappointed about murrayfield kind of being like there's loads more england fans here what's happening thinking about it that was my first

4:33Will: time at murrayfield to see england was 2010 but i'd have been here before then covering wales yeah okay when completely different i mean totally different yeah because edinburgh has always

4:43Alex: been the big away trip for wales fans get the bus for 12 hours more than twickenham yeah and And yeah, they had a big win there in the Grand Slam year, I remember.

4:55Will: Which one? 05? 05. Yes, and it's a very different experience actually coming to Edinburgh in a Scotland-Wales weekend when the place is just full of Welsh fans. And noisy because they've driven up in the minibuses and in the coaches. Maybe had a beer or two. It's a huge away trip. So actually, yeah, they've been here long before the Ben Young's day with Wales.

5:17Alex: I think you're lucky here, Alfred, because I think this is my favourite Six Nations city. It's a great city, isn't it? I came off the train, you're straight into town, and I know the weather was rubbish, but there's so many cool places, great pubs, you can get the tram down to Haymarket. It's a really cool place.

5:35Will: My taxi driver on the way in was a great lad, and he was telling me about his man cave and how all his mates come back to his place. They don't go out in town anymore, it's too expensive. if they're all high out in his house. But they're all tight. They come with one beer and then raid his beer. Brilliant. Brilliant lad. And he was saying that his mate had booked a table at a Greek restaurant in Haymarket, which is just down the road from Murrayfield, for Valentine's Day for him and his wife, and then extended the invitation to my cab driver and his wife. And they said yes. So they're going to go to this Greek restaurant on Saturday evening at 7 o 'clock until they realized that...

6:14Will: Oh, hang on. That's about 20 minutes after the Calcutta Cup game would have finished, 500 yards up the road. Oh, man. So they have now changed their plans. Yeah. Valentine's Day somewhere else.

6:25Alex: Yeah. It's great. You're going to love it. It's going to be cool.

6:28Alfie: Oh, look, I'm really looking forward to it. And as we've been saying, we spoke about it on Monday's pod in studio with Charlie and Slotty. And despite everything, and we'll get into all the context of this game, about England and the unbeaten run, about Scotland, the defeat to Italy, questions over Gregor Townsend. I agree, Will. I think you just feel that this is not going to be easy for England at all. So I suppose the first question to you both is how relevant in your minds is the form? Because these are two teams with totally contrasting form. But how relevant is that on Saturday?

7:00Alex: I think it has to be to an extent because England are in good form. They haven't lost for a year. So that imbues them with all sorts of confidence that they haven't come up here with in recent years. and they used to come up here with all the time. Like Courtney Laws wrote an excellent spicy column this week, which is good fun, about all the occasions where he came up here and he ended it with going, cheers, Murrayfield, because he won, what, 20-0 in 2014?

7:28Will: Yeah.

7:29Alex: Like he was part of the team that would just roll into Murrayfield, job done, see you later, horrible day, but they're way better than Scotland. Happy days. And he said it pisses him off, doesn't it, that Scotland try and raise themselves for this game and not others. like they beat England, lose to Italy, whatever. So we understand the context of that. But on the flip side, you go, it's got to matter that Scotland are in bad form, but maybe in a good way, if that makes sense. Like if they can't respond this week at home against England in the Calcutta Cup, having just lost with their coach's neck on the line, then we will learn a lot about this Scotland team.

8:04Will: I was at Twickenham last weekend talking to Stuart Barnes about playing here, about the psychology of this game, because that's really what it comes down to. If this match was being played anywhere else in the world, or if they weren't England and Scotland but two collections of the same players, England would and should win almost all the time. All we're talking about here is the psychology of Scotland because they're playing England, the psychology of Scotland trying to bounce back from losing to Italy. The crux of Courtney's point was that England should go into the game and consider all of those psychological elements as a weakness of Scotland, the fact that they can arouse themselves for one game and it's England, England should be like, brilliant.

8:52Will: It shows you're worried. Go in there and stamp their authority on the day and on the game. And England, I think, have the game plan to do it, which was Courtney's. The core of Courtney's point was all of this stuff that swirls around. If England go in and impose themselves in the way they have imposed themselves on games over the last year, particularly against the big nations, we're talking about Australia, New Zealand, Wales could not cope with the control and the pressure that England brought upon them last week. They do the same. Then you're testing Scotland's psychology. Then you're testing how much do they believe in what they're about?

9:32Will: How much are they playing for their coach? you're reversing it all back on them and I do think where this young England because a lot of young players haven't been here aren't affected by that history they'll just be like chest out going I know that they're not all like Henry Pollock but there are even a Guy Peppa there's no reason for him to come to Murrayfield and be worried about all of all of that psychology just come in and do what they've been doing and I think if they do that they can reverse that because it's psychology. And if they can control the first 15, 20 minutes, then you're really going to test what it means, like Scotland, the depth of Scotland's belief in where they are.

10:17Will: And I think Scotland are vulnerable because you don't produce a performance as limp as they did in Rome, I don't think, if there's not a problem in that camp.

10:27Alfie: I agree that I think, as you say, starting quickly for England is so important because if they don't, if they breathe life into Scotland hopes and expectations, then all of a sudden it becomes a very different occasion. Whereas if they start front foot, if they get on top early, you could see it going the opposite way and really quietening it down.

10:45Alex: Or even further than that, bring boos. Because this Scotland public are out for blood. It's obvious, isn't it? Mark Palmer did an excellent job breaking the team news on Times Sport earlier on Thursday. got it right and there are no Edinburgh team no Edinburgh players and there's by the way there's a great stat about that I'll just get it up for you this is the first time a Scotland men's starting 15 hasn't included a single Edinburgh player since another Calcutta Cup match in Murrayfield in 1998 Scotland had played at 303 consecutive matches with at least one Edinburgh player in the starting lineup and that's from Kevin Miller who's top of the moon GW on social media and so there's that element of edinburgh fans being like this is not my team there's glasgow fans going why can't they play like us there's people who have lost patience with gregor townsend going i actually would prefer us to lose this game so that he can just get sacked like that is genuinely what some people think which is a bit mental isn't it surely not that many but i think there will be some though like that who will be ready if it's like if it's the same it won't be at all but if it's 29 nil at half-time like it was at Twickenham.

12:00Can you imagine the atmosphere at Murrayfield,

12:04Alex: which is going to be, what, 75 % Scottish? They will be booing. And I feel like that's England's challenge. Like, get the crowd to turn on the Scottish team. And when it's for them, it could be excellent and rowdy and everything else and fantastic. And the march from the bus, the slow, slow, slow march with the bagpipes up to the changing room door and everything else will be there as usual. but I feel like England can make this turn against Townsend and Scotland really quite quickly if they go about it the right way. But as you say, Alfie, if they don't, what I feel is actually going to happen is that Scotland, because they have to, are going to come out all animalistic and kind of throwing everything at it, and it will be tight.

12:47Alex: I was going to say, it'll be tight, maybe, but because they will have to bring that fire. If it's not, you kind of go, as I said at the top of this, you're like who this is your only chance to save it Scott and you've just not turned up that would be that would be quite embarrassing there have been times

13:04Will: when England have come here and haven't matched that fire I mean 2018 quite a good example which I mean Ben Teo was I know he has a perspective from the outside but he was like I've played grand finals I've played State of Origin it's just another team just another stadium and he had this unemotional perspective on it Let's just go in there. They can get all het up about that. Let's just go in and play the game. And England lost. And they got... Ryan Wilson caused carnage in the tunnel. And then the Scotland back row were just on it. And were making life impossible.

13:40Alex: Barkley and Watson, yeah. For England.

13:42Will: Yeah. And England just weren't... They were kind of stunned by that. And could never get in the game. I'd be surprised if this England team could go into this game and not match that ferocity. And if they do match that ferocity, then I think they're a better team. It becomes this challenge of how long can Scotland retain this kind of belief in themselves. And then you get to the last quarter. So even if it's tight after an hour, because Scotland are in it and the crowd are behind them and they have the fire in the bellies, they don't have the bench that matches England. And we discussed it through the autumn that Scotland's ability to play 80 minutes isn't there, whereas England have demonstrated enough over the last six Test matches that they've transformed themselves with the quality of their bench and how they have been able to apply that pressure and intensity for 80 minutes.

14:41Alex: So we sometimes ask players questions that I'm about to ask you guys, which have two answers, and they say, oh, it's a bit of both, and you go, no, no, no, pick one, come on. if this was an either or what would it be and so I'm going to ask you guys and you can't say it's a bit of both but what matters more this weekend the fact that Scotland have the wall over England's eyes in the Calcutta Cup and won most of the recent fixtures either at Twickenham or at Murrayfield or England's recent form therefore they haven't lost in 12 games and are good at when it gets to the 60 minute mark closing out matches you're allowed to pick one of these two you can't say either or

15:20Alfie: well I feel like England's form I think that the whole recent Calcutta Cup history England not winning up here would be more relevant if we were looking at these two teams and thinking they were quite more evenly matched and also if England didn't have the body of work behind them to suggest that they are a team in a different place I think that's probably what it boils down to for me I'm fascinated because there is still that question there I know Will you've been writing about that and have mentioned on the pod I think at Twickenham on Saturday didn't you yeah England need this statement away win so that question's still kind of there but you look at what they've achieved you look at their strength in depth you look at the way in which they have been able to see out games and despite the fact that we're maybe craving that away win I still think that body of work and and their form is therefore more relevant than the fact that they haven't won here

16:07Will: since 2020 yeah I think Joe Hayes might be the only one who cares about history in this England Are we loving for it? Yeah, but to pick out a few names, why does it matter to Tom Roebuck what's happened in the past? Why does it matter to Henry Pollock what's happened in the past? Or Trevor Davison? These guys, and Trevor's kind of new to this set-up. You could name lots of them. Alex Coles, Oli Chesson. These guys, they might have played Dingwall. They might have played Freeman. He's played one game, hasn't he? But they don't. We're talking about a record going back a decade or so. these guys don't care about it.

16:45Will: They're at school. Like, it isn't... They care about what they're in. And that's my point about the psychology of it. They care... I think that the Scottish public and the team will probably lean heavily on, this is Murrayfield, we make life hard for England, they hate coming here, look at our record. They always... I don't think these England players care about that.

17:05Alex: So what about on the flip side then? If you're the likes of Russell Tupolotu, Hugh Jones, Jamie Ritchie, those guys, you've beaten England quite regularly. They lean on it. So if you're in a nipper, it's 20-all with an hour to go. You're like, we've been here before. We've done this. We execute.

17:24Will: Definitely. So the flips...

17:25Alex: Even though they lost last week, they might go, actually, come on, I've seen this video before.

17:28Will: Your question flips to Scotland is the opposite answer. Yeah, yeah. Because that's all they've got to hang on to. That's their one thing. They have done it. They can go, oh, these English, they can't hack it when they cross Hadrian's Wall. They would play on that because that's all they have to cling on to. So, yeah, completely opposing views of the game. But I think current form is more important than history, looking at it neutrally.

17:51Alfie: I was just thinking as you were speaking there, Alex, that would be an interesting question of asking Henry Pollock, what were you doing in 2020 when England last lost it? It would be like, oh, someone makes 15th birthday party or something like that, wouldn't it?

18:01Alex: It actually would have been, wouldn't it?

18:03Alfie: It would be something like that, yeah. It would be ridiculous. But what about the flip side? So one of the things I've been thinking about this week is kind of Scotland and trying to place them. And it's funny, isn't it? because the Six Nations is so reactionary to what happened the weekend before because it has to be. Every team has five games, so each match is so important. So I'm not saying it shouldn't be that way. But I've been looking at Scotland just thinking they can't be as bad as they were last week. They just can't be. It would be utterly unacceptable if they turned up and produced that performance again.

18:31Alfie: So Scotland are going to be better because they absolutely have to be. So then I've been thinking, and here's a question for you guys, of how good is this Scotland team? is the recent form back end of last year, or even if you want to go back to since the World Cup and this steady decline, as people have been saying, they've dropped a 10th in the world rankings. Italy are now above them. All these questions, is that a true reflection of this Scotland team? Or when you look at it on paper, and I know the team that Townsend selected is missing quite a few of these guys, but they could have had a back line, which was literally all on the British and Irish Lions tour.

19:07Alfie: Plenty of forwards in the pack that would have been as well. you look at the team on paper and you think it's a good team it's a decent team like where

19:14Will: in your mind yeah how how good is scotland so the scotland on paper is better than scotland on grass that has a has been a problem like you as will mentioned earlier you look at how good glasgow have been and they provide like such a high percentage of this team and we asked mark palmer on the on the preview pod why that would basically would glasgow do better in the six nations and And the fact that you think they might do illustrates one of the problems that Scotland have, is that they are performing below the sum of their parts. And they have done for a lot of years. As Courtney wrote in his column, they may have held the Calcutta Cup for five years, six years in a row, but they finished third once, and fourth, fifth or sixth in the other years.

20:02Will: So they have no consistency. So their potential is high. but they have no consistency and they have no spirit and as you're asking that question after I know you you go watch a lot of football you cover a lot of football in my head I had Tottenham like that is a comparison no one wants at the moment exactly right so Thomas Frank is a is evidently a really good manager but he could not make Tottenham work now Tottenham have probably way more it's way more of a basket case than Scotland so I'm not it's not a direct a comparison but the thought that was going through my head was just because you have good players if there's something missing if you're not believing in the direction of travel if if the message is not landing properly then does the collection of good players doesn't matter because Tottenham won a European trophy at the end of last season and now they're five points relegation they've sacked the manager because and he's a good manager and they've obviously got good good footballers because they're Premier League footballers and yet they're getting worse and worse and worse so what is the problem there is it because the players don't believe in the direction of travel is it something's broken and it just got and it's not a direct comparison so don't make a headline out of Alfie but it's just that you're always horrible with these headlines it's just that point about it's the quotes I do I don't write the headlines mate it's just that point about they they should have beaten New Zealand but didn't they should have beaten Argentina but didn't they didn't even turn up against Italy and I'm sorry but all the talk of oh it was the conditions is pathetic as if Italy were playing conditions up here today as if Italy were playing in dry weather as well yeah yeah so for me that's like three examples of of a team that is not delivering certainly playing below the sum of its parts and the question is why and that's just where the Tottenham thing came in it's like is it getting worse and if it's getting worse then even a spike on Saturday might not be enough to to change the overall trajectory

22:01Alex: of this team so I've got a wider thought for both of you here which is I'm going to say what I'll say and want you to both react to kind of the whole theme of this because I feel like this is really interesting topic for I'm going to group them unfairly as the three let's call them the Celtic team so Ireland Wales and Scotland so I guess the big question here is what if you're a fan of one of those teams what is the best thing that you could possibly imagine could happen with the team because very like probably fairly or and historically none of those teams are going to win the world cup so it's like well what's the what's the absolute peak thing that you could probably achieve and i'd say it's the grand slam in the six nations isn't it because wales have done it regularly ireland have done it regularly in more recent years scotland have never achieved it they've never got close to competing for a six nations title the last title the one was 99 as we well know in the five nations and then if you're a scotland fan you're going okay well so the peak thing that i'm allowed to sort of dream for is a six nations title or a grand slam and then you can back that up by saying well we are able as scotland to beat all of the teams individually that we play against every season so why can't we beat them all in a row and therefore you say so is Gregor then under delivering with in inverted commas the best Scotland team of all time which is clearly out for debate or is he actually delivering at exactly the level that they always basically are which is sort of between third and fourth and fifth in the six nations and good enough to beat England historically well over the last few years but they're never going to be good enough to beat South Africa regularly they're never going to beat New Zealand because they like Wales don't either Ireland have only just really recently turned that around like I think that whole thing's interesting where maybe with France and England there's a different and on the other side Italy there's different context because you say with their resources with their money with their leagues with their depth of player pool and everything the top thing that England France should aspire to is winning the World Cup and Grand Slams and the Six Nations and with Italy you go they've never beaten all of the other five teams because they've never beat England so therefore they can't yet go we should be competing for the six nations do you

24:18Will: know what I mean does that all make sense it's tricky because Ireland and Wales with no greater resources particularly have been number one in the world within the last six seven years and

24:28Alex: they're not the same but you kind of go well therefore shouldn't couldn't Scotland become that with the right yeah wind behind them and everything else to put your question to Argentina

24:38Will: what's the limit of their aspirations and they don't even have a professional league they've got a much bigger population to be fair yes but no professional structure sorry a nascent professional structure where they're actually a lot of them are semi-pro playing that America's super rugby but again just another and they've made World Cup semi-finals regularly so it is possible maybe not as Ireland are showing now and as Wales are definitely showing to consistently be expected to challenge at the very top is unrealistic. For a small country. But when you have a collection of players like Scotland have had in the last five or so years, I think not getting out of group stages and not finishing above third and never really competing, not even once, is below what I would expect this group to achieve.

25:30Alex: Yeah, because I just think it's interesting in the context, because we'll probably expand on this and get onto the sort of head-on-the-block nature of Gregor Townsend this week. Because I think it's interesting, isn't it? Like, we asked Steve Borthwick about it, and he's not going to say, yeah, I agree with all the Scotland fans, they should sack him. But he was very, he went over the top, actually, and said, I've got a huge amount of respect for Gregor Townsend. And obviously, because it's Steve Borthwick, he gave us a correct fact, which is that he's the most successful Scotland coach of all time in the professional era, because Ian McGee can be different before that.

26:04Alex: He had two stints on either side. And obviously in the 80s and 90s, they won Grand Slams. But so you're going, yeah, okay. So the context of Gregor Towns' reign over nine years, it's a bit like Eddie Jones in some ways. He's the best they've ever had. And it's still not good enough now. And obviously there are more contexts around it. But I think I just find this whole thing interesting of like, if you're a Scotland fan, are you being too demanding by saying, we should be winning the Six Nations every year, we should be beating the All Blacks, we should be making World Cup semi-finals. And you go, hang on, you've got two teams, one of whom's not contributing at all to the starting 15, and you've got four, three world-class players, and that's the best you've ever had?

26:49Alex: And you're demanding Six Nations titles, you're demanding All Black wins? But I think Scotland fans would say they're not demanding those things. But they're annoyed that they're not getting them. They're saying we want the coach gone because of that.

27:01Alfie: Yeah, but is that not in a way the nature of sport? And to use another football analogy here is we all know that within English football, there's a bit of a limit on what your team can ever really achieve unless you support one of the traditionally really big clubs, which is kind of where Bournemouth, Brighton, Brentford, Crystal Palace, like those sorts of teams have been recently. But that doesn't mean that fans aren't still super invested in their team in the lower leagues and want them to climb the pyramid and try and get there. And it's similar with Scotland. Like I can understand where the Scotland fans are at the moment, which is we've had this golden generation, supposedly.

27:35Alfie: We've had a team that on paper is absolutely brilliant, but they've never got past those hurdles. And we feel that they should be able to. And yeah, you're right. Of course, you know, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, it's always going to be a mammoth task for them to be able to win a World Cup. But it doesn't necessarily mean that I don't think it would never happen. I think Ireland are probably quite a good example of that. I know it was another, the most recent World Cup was one where they didn't get past the quarterfinal and all that. But it was an absolutely brilliant game against the All Blacks.

28:02Alfie: They win that, then I think most of us probably expect them to get to the final. Like that team was good enough to win a World Cup. But as we know, unless you're South African or New Zealand, no one really wins World Cups particularly. Like it has to be a bit of a perfect storm.

28:14Alex: But I guess that maybe the summary of this whole point is that the thing that you can demand as a small country, and I don't mean that disparagingly, I just mean that in terms of literal numbers of people, and like numbers of teams that you have from like Ireland got four, Wales have got four at the moment, Scotland have got two. You think surely the thing that you must demand is that you're making the absolute most, the 100 % of your ability.

28:42Alfie: And that's the point.

28:43Alex: Which maybe Scotland fans would go, we're not.

28:46Will: Well, I think it's connected to my point about the psychology of the team. So I don't think he's under pressure because he's not winning Grand Slams. I think he's under pressure because there's a feeling that he's got the most out of this group. He's taken them to some... As far as he can go, to use that phrase we always use. They've beaten Australia and they've beaten England multiple times. There's a potential there that has not been delivered consistently. And so I think it's more a sense of how much more could be achieved under this regime. It's that trajectory that I mentioned earlier. how much do the players believe that they can they can still go and do it i think in previous championships you know well they've they've had a really good win in the autumn before it and australia or something and then you they come to six nations and there's a there's a hope slash expectation that scotland might challenge and then they haven't and then the next year it's the same and then they haven't and i feel that there's a fatigue now around the game in scotland and that's why I'm so interested about whether it's now kind of filtering into the team as to whether they no longer really believe that there's more that this team can achieve.

29:58Will: I think there is more that they can achieve because they've got a collection of players who are good enough to do it. So I think that's where the pressure is starting to mount because those results in the autumn and then Italy last week just indicate that maybe this isn't going to move to the next level. Now, then if they win on Saturday, is that the England spike and does it change the trajectory or is it just simply a spike but the the kind of the direction of travel remains the same we'll see but I just feel that's where the pressure is and that's why I'm interested to see how the players react if England can get them into

30:34Alfie: a real pressure position yeah and look let's see what happens on on Saturday but everything with Gregor Townsend and what happens from here is so interesting isn't it because I was just I was looking actually at the YouTube comments on from Monday's episode which is now on YouTube if people want to go and watch our Monday episodes and Tom McMullen said I think the argument that winning the Calcutta game for Scotland is going to be a pass now has gone for Scotland fans I slash we want change with this generation so we'll see how much you know what what the fallout is really off

31:05Alex: the back of Saturday and I guess on an extension of that as well is the obviously all the stuff we just talked about here there's more context with the particular Gregor Townsend situation the fact that he's been here for nine years and it looks like he's got to the point where he can't deliver anymore with the team and there's this whole Newcastle thing which has annoyed everyone like that that's got to be part of it that people feel he will think otherwise but people feel Scottish fans feel like they're being mugged off that he's looking elsewhere and I think we all understand that people need to work out what the next job's going to be when they know the end dates coming in 18 months time but it's just the way that's been managed on all sides has been really poor it's been really poorly done from a communications pr perspective from everyone around

31:54Will: that yeah i don't think the next job is is that necessarily that big a deal because we all know that this is where his journey ends at the world cup currently it's it's more the sort of taking

32:06Alex: on an extra role and having that cake and eating it and like why can't you do your first job properly mate type stuff isn't it it's that kind of narrative i mean everyone there's different

32:15Will: managerial approaches all these things but i was reading clive woodward talk about oh three and how he signed a contract extension on the day they left for australia as a sign to the team that this isn't the end this is yeah we uh and he was like he basically banned anyone any player from talking about retirement after the world cup or this is my last game or because he was like the future like his his his um contract i think was like a signal that of like all in commitment to to england and for the players it was like you don't talk about retirement about last game we've got this to go and go and achieve and he was enjoying his own situations in comparison with with gregor townsend who is like obviously going to become the director of rugby at newcastle although he tried to deflect that story by suggesting that the Daily Telegraph were in England's camp trying to stir up Calcutta Cup trouble 10 days before.

33:13Will: I mean, maybe they were in Italy's camp. Maybe they were in Italy's camp trying to stir up trouble before the visit to the Stadio Olimpico. But again, it's just bad comms. I mean, we've lived through it so much with the RFU. Just work out strategy. if you are going to join Newcastle and everyone knows it just say it just own it and go yes I'm doing that but that's two years time and get it done in like January so it doesn't drag through the tournament yeah I just think I think just kind of the obfuscation and the kind of dancing around the subject just drags it out it just makes it it continues it as an issue

33:51Alex: yeah rip the plaster off yeah

33:53Alfie: let's have a really quick break I just want to say as well we've referenced Courtney's column do go and read it because it was brilliant. It was as punchy and spicy as we always expect from Courtney. And stay for the anecdote at the end where he said he's basically nursing an ankle injury that he got from his first ever game playing Scotland away at Murrayfield in the turf and how his ankle got caught, which made me chuckle. So yeah, stick around for that. Go and check out the column. Quick break here and the other side of this. I just want to do a couple on the England and Scotland team news and we'll look ahead to the other two games this weekend.

34:26Alfie: Now, if you're listening to this, you're clearly a rugby fan, which means you'll know that style and performance go hand in hand. That's why we're thrilled to be partnered with Charles Tirrett. They aren't just experts in tailoring, they are the official formal wear partner to England rugby. They've been dressing the squad and coaches for six years now and they even count legends like Matt Dawson and Marcus Smith as brand ambassadors. For the England fans out there, you need to check out their official England rugby collection. It features Tyrwhitt classics like those iconic shirts and knitwear all embroidered with the England rose so you can show your support in style whether you're at the stadium or watching from the sofa.

35:08Alfie: Shop the new season now at charlestyrwhitt.com. Youth mental health is a complex challenge that requires comprehensive solutions. We must strengthen after school programs. We must make digital literacy tools available in our schools. We must work with mental health professionals to support children. And we must empower mentors, educators and parents to keep kids happy. Learn more about our commitment to finding lasting solutions at empowerourfuturecoalition.com slash solutions. Paid for by the Coalition to Empower Our Future. So England team was named on Tuesday. So it was a couple of days ago now.

35:51Alfie: There's a few interesting bits in there, wasn't there? Two changes in total from the starting team that played Wales. Mauro Toje comes back in. Luke Cowan-Dickey comes in. Jamie George and Alex Coles are on the bench. No Marcus Smith on the bench, which maybe gets me into the point that stood out to me here, gents. And it links to a few different things, really. Alex, you've been writing about this. I was really intrigued in the piece you've written and about how this is moving year. and England trying things and trying players out of position in quotation marks and just kind of how this whole team works.

36:28Alfie: It was interesting that Freeman is still at 13. I wonder whether Borthwick would go with that for this game. And it's really interesting as well that Finn Smith is on the bench in place of Marcus Smith.

36:37Will: Yeah, so my analogy was a major golf championship. The Saturday is, they call moving day. It's the point where if you want to win the title, you've got to put yourself in a position on Saturday to be able to contend on Sunday. And I think that's what England and France are doing this year, particularly the Six Nations. That's not to say they're not trying to win the Six Nations at all. I think they're both in a sweet spot where they can both challenge to win the title and prepare the ground for next year. What Steve Borthwick is doing, I think, is trying to invest as much experience into multiple options so that when he comes to select his 33-man squad, he's got evidence behind every decision, every selection.

37:24Will: So take this team as an example. So Tommy Freeman is going to play 13. Unless there's an absolute crisis, he's going to play 13. Every game this Six Nations. I think so, yeah. because they see him as their best 13. I think they like, they think he defends better there than he does on the wing. I feel they think he defends better than Ollie Lawrence there. The power of his carries was evident against Wales. I think there's areas of improvement for sure. This is the moving year. This is the point when they were going to invest in him so that by the time he's going to get to the World Cup, he's got 10, 15 tests at the outside centre.

38:03Will: So I think that's a project that is unlikely to change bar unforeseen circumstances. Now if Freddie Stewart goes down in the fifth minute on Saturday, I suspect Tommy Freeman moves to 15. Which is why I put in that piece that you could argue that he's England's most valuable player. Because he's their best wing, he's considered their best outside centre, and right now he's their second best fullback in this team. That makes him, everything hinges around him. Look at the other selections. So Finn Smith on the bench, I really like because I like the idea that he could come on as a 10 or 12, kind of Owen Farrell style 12, physical, calm, manage the game, great kicking game, but he's not played there.

38:48Will: so this is again an opportunity for England to test it and see how things pan out now if they have used Ben Earl there in the past but I think I think this is an opportunity and it's not something they're not just dropping him in out of nowhere like he hasn't played he played the Fiji game in November but he hasn't he will have been running in training at 12 a lot over the last five six weeks with England so through November in Girona and last week they will have been they've been getting the reps in i think if the game is comfortable then i reckon arundel will end up at 15 on saturday in the same way as pollock came on the wing against wales because he could because the game was done again that would be an investment in a player who i think they've got he's not he's not the best in the air but he's improving but there are teams who will kick long at england rather than kick contestable and then i think they they like the idea of a of his pace some kicks long to Arundel that gas, that ability to exploit Broker Field, so these are all permutations and elements that England will have planned out between now and the World Cup how can they get experience and evidence in all these options so that when Borthic has to name 33 for the World Cup he knows what he's selecting from he knows how to balance that squad out properly so I don't think it's the end for Marcus Smith because he'll be a valuable World Cup player because he can play two positions.

40:15Alfie: And so in those situations, so if Arundel goes to 15, I'm guessing Freeman goes wing, Finn Smith comes on and Dingwall goes 13. And likewise, if Freeman goes to fullback, then it would be Dingwall shifts out wide. It's funny with this, that isn't it funny how I think perceptions of this sort of thing change in that it wasn't that long ago where people got so annoyed about the possibility of players playing out of position. Like Eddie Jones got really criticised when Tom Curry was playing number eight, for example. I think there's two things here. One, I think people understand that the game has changed enough.

40:48Alfie: And I think South Africa have obviously been the forerunners to this, haven't they? And that when they go into a World Cup final with Cheslin Colby potentially having to play wing or no hooker on the bench and that sort of thing. Scrum half. Scrum half, sorry. Yeah, yeah. So, and no hooker on the bench and players having to have positional versatility. I think people have caught up to the fact that actually it's not an outrageous point. But then the other thing from England point of view is how much easier is this all to do when you are winning?

41:12Will: Well, that was exactly it. So, yeah, I think 10 years ago, England win the Grand Slam with Haskell and Rob Shaw at 6-7. And the kind of narrative was, it's a patched up. They had to make do with Haskell and Rob Shaw at 2-6 and a half. Now, they play Guy Pepper at 6 when he's predominantly a 7. And they play Ben Earl at 8 when he plays the club rugby at 7. The whole perception of what's possible has changed. I think because the skill sets have changed massively. What South Africa has done has changed the viewpoint as well. But that was a point I made in that piece, that in this kind of moving year, if you like, England and France are in this perfect position because they've got a solid base in which they can drop in new players.

41:57Will: It's that classic All Blacks thing. It's the classic Springboks thing now of you've got solidity and cohesion and consistency. Then you can introduce some new elements into a team that understands who it is. If you look at Ireland by comparison, they're trying to fast-track some change now, potentially quite dramatically, in the space of a year. And they're not in a position where they can both try and select to win today and select to prepare for tomorrow. They're now, Ireland are just going for tomorrow. They have to. England are in a position where they can do both. and so they're dropping in little experiments, the coaches want some evidence.

42:41Will: But the difference, I think, between some of these selections and, say, Tom Curry at number eight is that he was just picked at number eight straight away. I don't think there was any prep with him in an England camp when he was picked at number eight because England didn't really have any. So Eddie Jones was like, what do I do? Well, Tom, you're playing number eight. Whereas now, I think the ground is set for all these players. Henry Pollock came on the wing for 10 minutes at the end of the Wales game. That idea was first mentioned at the start of November by England. So he would have run there in training with England every session through until getting 15 minutes at the end of a game that was already won.

43:24Will: There are no knee-jerk decisions going on here with England. And it's very different to just dropping in a player out of nowhere, playing him out of position. It's different to having Johnny May packed down as an emergency flanker and not know what on earth he's doing, and putting his shoulder up the loose end's backside or wherever it was.

43:43Alex: Marla throwing into the line out in 22 up here.

43:46Will: Up here, Marla having to throw into the line out. With Count Dickie on the bit. Hadn't been prepared for. As much as Eddie Jones did do a lot of prep, some of those things weren't covered. and I don't think that applies to this team.

43:59Alex: So two thoughts, you maybe remember. So I think sometimes you covered more of the Eddie Jones England than I did. I sort of was doing Wales and then came into the back end where it was slightly going pear-shaped. But he was way ahead with loads of things that we laughed at him at the time for. As a group, not saying just me and you, but as a sort of media, as a group. And I remember very particularly, I'm sure you were there, Alex, was it 2019 quarterfinal Australia he in inverted commas dropped George Ford to the bench and the press conference is why have you dropped George Ford and he goes I just changed his role mate and then they were like yeah okay but like you've dropped George Ford he's like welcome to the new world come into the modern way come to the come and join us boys kind of thing and he was like he's very funny with those sorts of things but and the finishes thing we used to get so angry about finishes what are finishes what are you talking about and all people have sort of drunk the Kool-Aid a bit on that and called them impact players when at Harlequins and stuff and you're like game changes at Bristol and things but that's ostensibly what is happening now and the box did with the bomb squad but he was there five years before them and we laughed at him but the second bit I was just going to mention on your point there was that the one thing that he never did and was incapable of doing was having a good enough relationship with the clubs so that he could help drill certain things at Northampton at Saracens at Bath because he just pissed everyone off whereas Tommy Freeman can play 13 for Northampton this season when they might go we quite like him on the wing actually but then they go oh actually it's all right because we've got Todaro who's amazing Freeman's saying he wants to play 13 he's an England contracted player which by the way there are a few in the clubs have sorted out that as well he can play there at 13 for Saints and England, Borthos and Dowson get on.

45:47Alex: It all works a bit more smoothly. So they can do these sort of slightly funky things.

45:51Will: It has to rely on relationships because that central contract thing doesn't go as far as an England coach would want it to go. An England coach would think, if I've got Tommy Freeman, I want him playing 13. If Northampton want him playing on the wing, Northampton can pick him on the wing. England have no authority over that at all.

46:10Alex: They've got it on game time and injury things, but not positional changes. Not position. They couldn't say to Quinn, Smith needs to play full-back all the time.

46:18Will: So then it relies on a relationship between Borthwick and Dowson in this case to try and thrash out an agreed plan for the player's best development, which Eddie Jones, he never could. Borthwick is trying really hard because he's constrained in his authority by an EPS agreement which doesn't actually benefit him massively.

46:41Alex: it's the most control of any head coach ever isn't it but it's not as far as he wants it

46:47Will: it's helped the fitness levels of this England team it's helped the conditioning levels of this England team no question so there is more control and it is more than ever but it's not I think the RFU should have been lobbying for more it's not what Farrell would have with Ireland the other point I was going to make about Eddie is that the one that I never laughed at was that Jack Noel could be a flanker thing but he never really followed through on it he sort of floated it and I remember the day he mentioned it we were like that's a great line and then when you think about it why not? yes because that is how he plays the sort of scrappy do winger who's everywhere but then he never really followed through on that idea almost didn't quite have the courage of his convictions to do it and maybe the game wasn't ready for him and all that kind of stuff but it is now it is now and so this England England's 33 man World Cup squad will be fascinating because I think it's going to be rammed full of hybrids, inverted commas.

47:48Will: It's going to be rammed full of players who can play multiple positions. And by the time they get there, I'd be surprised if anyone is selected without having had a run and a period of time in the multiple positions that he's due to play.

48:03Alex: Very quickly, the last one. If anyone becomes a person who can play across all three positions in the front row, sign your checks now. That's the next one, I think. Someone who can play loose head, tight head and hooker and throw in.

48:18Alfie: They'll be laughing all the way to the bank, won't they? They're able to do that. You're absolutely right, though. I know we've made this point before on the pod, but I think it's worth re-emphasising. Eddie Jones, as you say, always used to come out with these kind of crazy ideas and he'd give you a great headline, but wouldn't actually do it. Whereas Steve Borthwick does, and they're such different characters because Eddie Jones, as I say, was like, he kind of relished it, didn't he? Just going in there and completely changing.

48:38Alex: Sometimes it was a distraction thing, definitely.

48:40Alfie: Sometimes. To just go, there's a big news story, but I'm going to go, boom, what about this? But then you've got Steve Borthwick, on the other hand, who never wants to give a headline. We have a certain perception of him, but actually his selections are really punchy.

48:52Will: So the one that we haven't seen is Guy Pepper in the back line. Yeah, which he has floated. Which he has floated as well. On the same day he floated Pollock on the wing, he also mentioned Guy Pepper's name.

49:01Alex: And you say there, by the way, he doesn't want a headline. I think the day he mentioned that, he dropped Marcus Smith for the first time. So in that sense, I think he did want the headline. He's getting better at the whole media thing. Everyone's getting better, Alfie. We're always getting better. We learn every week.

49:15Alfie: Final couple of points. I think one of these will bring us on to perhaps the other games. We've mentioned the Scotland team news, which is missing quite a few Lions players. You've mentioned the Ireland team news, which really does feel like Andy Farrell is having to try and regenerate this side quite late, I think, really, in preparation for the next World Cup. But brings us on to a point I know you wanted to raise, Will, which was post a Lions year it's wasn't where are they now yeah honestly after six months isn't it

49:43Alex: and this kind of happens after lots of modern day professional era tours I think because I remember after the last one 2021 you if you spooled on to February March half the squad were injured and that's a slightly different thing because it's like they had such big season and it was COVID and everything else but whether it was Ken Owens or Alan Wynn even who never got injured then did Anthony Watson doing his Achilles again all that sort of stuff you're like the Lions take so much out of people that then they were breaking the next season which is an issue and they've tried to pull back the number of games they play so that doesn't keep happening but actually this tour the Lions is always a snapshot in time obviously because it's who's in form right now who's the best squad right now and then the next six nations quite a lot of different people change some people drop off whatever but I just find it remarkable how much it's already shown that that was a snapshot in time so like just looking across the teams this weekend and they've all they've changed a bit from last weekend but in England there's no Owen Farrell no Marcus Smith no Elliot Daly with Ireland James Lowe's actually come back into the team but they've got rid of Finlay Bielam and Josh van der Vliet Tyg Byrne's been moved to the bench Tyg Furlong's back on the bench having been injured with Scotland they've got no Doohan no Blair Kinghorn no Darcy Graham no Sutherland Graham's on the bench Kinghorn's gone back flown to play Stavron State to lose Doohan's nowhere to be seen Ireland have also got some injuries and bans so Bundiaki Porter, Hansen, Keenan England have got Will Stewart out Wales have got Morgan out like it's remarkable and then some of these are sort of not quite but like Curry's being used as a bench player Pollock's being used as a bench player Finn Smith's come onto the bench Jamie George has dropped down to the bench Keller has a bench player Schumann's doing dropped to the bench you think it's remarkable it's like a third of the squad have either been banned, lost their place or been moved to the bench it's interesting isn't it?

51:47Will: Yeah when we were talking about this earlier I was reminded I'm going to dig it out now reminded of that line from Andy Farrell after the third test in Australia where Andy Farrell was sitting on the top table with Ty Byrne and I think they were both asked general questions about how much do you want to be involved with the Lions again in four years time and Ty Byrne said I'll be there and Andy Farrell said you'll be there will you at 37 you're joking I'm retiring you next year and everyone laughed and I remember standing at the back of the room going I'm not sure he's joking I'm not sure you know a tight burn hell of a player but like it felt then like Farrell was going right no this is it's a whole new era when I get back and I know he's on the bench this time and he's like he's a class player and he probably won't be retiring him but the sentiment was there I think

52:37Alex: yeah but if this brings us onto the Ireland team that does feel like a sort of like right rip it up let's go yeah like new faces lots of I mean people like Josh van der Fleur who didn't make the Lions test team and all the Irish guys out there were kind of asking Farrell about that quite regularly because he'd pick him every single week for years and then as soon as he's got more options goes no don't want van der Vliet and now he's gone and he questioned the one thing you were there Alex in Paris but the one thing he never does but did that Thursday was question their intent and then it's fascinating when someone does that as a coach you watch who they drop the next week and van der Vliet is one of them and that's going to be interesting It's such an interesting game Italy isn't it so so another thing that you should look out for which by the time this goes out will probably be up online is Will Collier's next scrum column oh nice which he I can't take any credit for it I try and help him do it a bit but he writes it all himself which is awesome like read it and you'll go wow why doesn't he take all of our jobs he's basically done a scrum analysis of how our Italy took Scotland to the cleaners and celebrating Simone Ferrari on the tight head but also the work of their locks as well and he's he's investigated they've got this one call so if you go to i think it's 36 minutes into the game italy absolutely destroys scotland the scrub and it's after ronan negara does a classic commentary curse thing where he goes like oh this will be a penalty against italy and then italy just go straight through them and he's found collier's found out that they've got this call called italia so zulani the seven calls the eee as the ball's coming in and then talia is when they all hit together against the head and that was that call for that scrum they smashed them and if they can do that they've got

54:23Alfie: a real chance italy haven't they i'd have thought so yeah i mean it's again i keep referencing back to monday but we were speaking about it on monday just your whole kind of context and how you view that game has changed off of the last weekend which is the six nations all over that's great

54:37Alex: And can you imagine? Actually, I don't know if it's going to happen. I don't think it will happen. I don't think Italy are going to win. And I'd love to be wrong because how cool would that be? But if they do, Italy two from two, how good? How good is that? I'm telling you, England in Rome. And if England are two from two, yeah, we'll go to Rome. And obviously England would have to get past Ireland first as well. But then England could have two Grand Slam shootouts in a row. They could have... Italy could be on for a slam. And then France. okay let's calm down yeah we haven't mentioned Wales France that's obviously on the Sunday which

55:12Alfie: we all you know hope and pray for the Welsh really we spoke a lot about Wales last week and Elgin in particular was really strong after the the game at Twickenham on that Wales performance they have to be better but they're coming up against many people's favourites for the title could be pretty one-sided finish us off then lads look we've been mainly speaking about the Calcutta Cup and England on the pod. How pivotal is Saturday in the context of where this England team finds itself right now?

55:39Will: Well I'll just defer to the piece that Will wrote from Twickenham last Sunday after the World game in which he threw forward, it was like the first preview for this game but the thrust of it was England are unbeaten in a year 12 wins from 12, some significant names scalped within that run, but they need to win away. They need to win a big game away. Now, they won away in Argentina in the summer, which were two really good performances, but it was two understrength teams. So had they dropped one, it wouldn't have mattered in the same way sort of thing. They were competitive test matches, but it was two second teams, or one and a half teams, whatever you call it.

56:24Will: But to win away in the Six Nations now, to win at Murrayfield would be a statement. wherever Scotland are, I think would be the kind of the statement win they need because their next away win needs to be, big one needs to be in Paris. And I think, so yeah, Pivotal in that sense, like doesn't kill all the progress if they lose, but it would kill the slam dream and it would put a bit of pressure on the chances of the title probably wouldn't be there anymore. So there's a lot riding on it for England, I think, and there's a lot to prove. And if they go and claim that away victory, then just adds another layer of certainty and confidence in what they're doing.

57:04Alex: I think this is the game that England, and I'm not saying this as the country or the fan base, I'm saying the team and the coaches are the most nervous about of the whole tournament because it totally rises or collapses their tournament. Because if they win on Saturday, it's like, right, bang, momentum, straight into Ireland. Ireland, where are they quite at? Should beat them at home, really. momentum here we go if they lose it's groundhog day it's not again scotland oh my god you can't believe it scotland who just lost to italy we lost them again and i they haven't had it against i mean the last time they beat them was basically because fin russell couldn't kick goals like it was hardly a dominant display of the prowess of england team was it so i think they'll be walking up and down their hotel room on princes street for about the next four days being like come on, come on, come on, come on, come on.

57:58Alex: And the England fans will be doing the same. And that's why I think it's going to be a cool game. And I think in a glorious way, the Six Nations does just throw form books out the window. And I like that. And as Alex said, just to put the stats on it. So England, it's funny. I think this is going to be Borthwick's 42nd test. And he's had, this will be his 15th away game, which actually doesn't sound like a lot, but obviously he had the World Cup where they're all neutral, aren't they? And he's only won seven of those. And some people would go, oh, well, he's won half his away games. That's all right.

58:25Alex: but it's the who they're against that it's the thing so they've they lost the big ones they've lost all the scotland ones they've lost the new zealand ones ireland ireland and france and then they've beaten sort of usa argentina very creditable we keep saying that they've beaten italy away wales away things like that but this is the one that they have got to nail looking

58:47Alfie: forward to it cannot wait next pod coming your way from the stands at murrayfield we'll have Charlie Morgan and Mark Palmer as well. It's going to be a busy pod, that one, potentially. Packed. Post game, which is going to be... Are we all going to fit? That press box is pretty narrow, isn't it? Is that right? I think I am... Oh, yeah. Yeah, you haven't been yet. I don't think I'm in the radio gantry. I think I'm probably in with you, so you guys might have to put up with my reports. The other thing, depending on where you sit,

59:08Alex: is that you could get the bad spot, which is right in front of the coach's box, so you're put on telly all day.

59:15Alfie: I reckon there's a good chance I'm going to be bottom of the pecking order in terms of the press list, So that is maybe where I'm going to end up.

59:20Alex: It's cool because you're right next to the Townsend and the Scotland coaches sit behind glass. And you do hear them whacking it sometimes.

59:27Alfie: I think he went to Steve Townsend who was their defence coach. As long as they can't hear my reports, if Scotland are losing.

59:31Alex: What next for Gregor Townsend? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hi, mate. You all right? How's it going?

59:35Alfie: The final thing as well I'll say is Monday the 9th of March, the Ruck Live. Serge Betson and Courtney Laws are going to be with us. The event is happening at the Twickenham Stoop. You can go online at the Times to get your tickets for that. Gents, appreciate it. We're going to be off to the England Hotel, aren't we, in a couple of hours? So, yeah, it's all happening. We're in Edinburgh. Really looking forward to it. Enjoy all the rugby this weekend. And, yeah, we'll be back with you Saturday.

1:00:04Alfie: This episode of The Rock is brought to you by Charles Tyrott, who are all about making men look and feel great. For the England fans out there, you need to check out their official England rugby collection, which features shirts, polos and knitwear. And we all know Tirrett for the workwear, but their casual game is just as strong. Think premium knitwear trainers and polos that make dressing well easy. Check it out for yourself in one of their 45 nationwide stores or visit charlestirrett.com. youth mental health is a complex challenge that requires comprehensive solutions we must strengthen after-school programs we must make digital literacy tools available in our schools we must work with mental health professionals to support children and we must empower mentors educators and parents to keep kids happy learn more about our commitment to finding lasting solutions at empower our futurecoalition.com slash solutions.

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