Can Exeter upset Saints to win the Prem?

0:02Alfie: Checking out online? Apple Pay makes it simple. When you tap the Apple Pay button, you can review your card information and shipping details. Need to make a change? Just tap to update your details before you pay. Then, all that's left, simply authenticate your purchase with Face ID to check out in seconds. Make online shopping a breeze with Apple Pay.

0:47Alfie: Hello, welcome along to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times, just a couple of days away from the Prem Final at Twicken. And we will be there, of course. We will be in the stands after the game to react to the match between Northampton and Exeter. But before that, I'm Alfie Reynolds. Will Kelleho is alongside me. Where are we, Will? We're at Sandy Park. I love it down here. We made the trip down to Devon. And do you know what? So here's some colour from the ground. We like giving people colour from the ground. And we'll be doing that through the summer, through the Nations Championship in South Africa, in Liverpool, in Santiago de l 'Estero.

1:19Colour from the ground, the Chiefs, very quiet, windy, quite hot in the tent room that they've put us in for the media. but we're in the stands and out the front did you see what was parked in the car park when you walked in i actually didn't go on a light blue convertible bentley with a personalized number plate which ends in tr i wonder whose car that is who could that be tony rowe that's a hell of a whip for

1:42Alfie: tony rowe it's always like when you go up to bath and their training base and there's just like an aston martin on the lawn outside you're like oh bruce grage it's like dripping cash isn't it yeah Well, I mean, look, there's a lot happening at Chiefs, isn't there? Like Prem Final, Rob Baxter's in his seventh Prem Final, which is obviously as many as Chiefs have been themselves. They're trying to sell the club. That looks like it's going through to the Bournemouth crew. Possibly will be at the game. I mean, decent sales pitch, isn't it, to take over a club, to be like, this is the sort of stuff that we do.

2:11We'll chat a bit about Saints as well on this pod, but I quite like coming down to Exeter. I used to go to uni down here, so it's like nostalgic.

2:17Alfie: And as you said on the pod on Monday, It's been a while since you've been here. It's been a while since I've been here as well. It's funny, isn't it, how sometimes you go to a certain ground all the time and then don't get here too often. So we are here today. We're going to be chatting to Rob Baxter in just a moment. Ollie Woodburn is going to be joining us as well, who I suppose, alongside Henry Slade, is one of the few guys remaining from the era that Exeter got to six finals in a row. But that is part of the story here, isn't it? Exeter, this team that last year, let's be honest, were nowhere near this point.

2:46Alfie: 12 months later, Rob Baxter has guided them back into the final day. it's quite exciting. Ninth to third, but possible champions, let's see. It's a hell of a story and as we were talking about on our Sunday for Monday pod, let's say, just an amazing endorsement for Baxter and the sort of, the bones of this club, I guess, and the hard-working nature of the place and building it back up with quite a lot of unsung heroes, good recruits, Tom Hooper, Lenny Ketel, I mean, obviously, Lenny Ketel's like a superstar test player, as is Tom Hooper but then you've got like Chimbadze and Berger and Brown Bampo and guys who have played above their usual reputations or things that we knew about them before we'll get through some news on this pod I guess but it's going to be interesting to see whether the squad gets a bit deeper this week with Faye Waboso is he going to be fit from his facial injury Ethan Roots is coming back from a concussion Cam Riddle's another one that they're waiting on but you feel both of those are key don't you massive yeah and look let's see what Rob says on on Fabio Bosa later but you sort of think if he's a tall fit he's in the 23 it maybe doesn't have to start but what an impact player that to bring on if it's tight in the last 20 minutes right yeah if he was in that 23 shirt and was coming on against more tired Northampton bodies in a hot day it's going to be like 27 8 degrees muggy I mean you don't want to be defending Fabio Bosa in the last 20 minutes of the final do you be a heck of an impact player as you say so wait and see we'll get some hopefully an update from rob baxter on that if you're listening to this after the teams have come out you may well already know if you're listening to us maybe on the way to uh if this is a prediction manny phobos is going to be in the 23 here you go if i'm wrong alfie can edit it out um so i tell you what let's come back and join us in in just a moment we'll start off with the man who has been at this club an absolute age let's uh get Rob Baxter on ahead of the Prem Final against Northampton.

4:55Alfie: Well, Rob, good to see you. Really appreciate your time. Not long to go now until the final. How does it feel for you as a coach? I imagine most of your preparation is done as the day draws nearer. Yeah, this is that kind of horrible time, really, where you kind of have to sit and wait because you have to hand it over to the players, really, this stage of the week. and that's what we spoke about in today's team meeting. Come on, this is your time now. You've got to try and drive the quality of how we do things today in the team run. Well, it's not so much the team run, but it really is the last time we run things at real pace.

5:27I think they've done that pretty well today. And then you kind of, obviously, there's little bits we can say tomorrow when we come in and do the captain's walk and then a little bit pre-match. But really, this is us just letting the lads talk about how they want to play and just keep reaffirming it and keep realigning themselves so that they really know how we want to try and do things on Saturday.

5:45Alfie: And what's this week been like preparing for obviously such a massive fixture, but off the back of a game where you had to reach such a physical and emotional high against Bath away? Well, I think the key is to how you let the lads get over one game first before you start to move on to the other game too quickly. We spoke about that in the immediate aftermath of the Bath game. It was such a big occasion, so many supporters there. The way the game ended was incredibly emotive. Any close game always ends a little bit like that. If you're over seven points up and you're kind of battling away and the clock's in the red, it's just not the same.

6:21And that's really probably what made it really important. I said to the lads, do whatever you need to do. So some of the lads had a couple of beers on the bus and talked about it, listened to a bit of music. Some of the lads got back here and got straight in the ice baths and that's what they wanted to do. Other lads went out for a bit of food. Everyone does it differently. I think that's the really important thing. let them just be themselves, let them get over it, let them talk about it, don't try and move on too quickly, because I don't think you ever move on properly if you don't put one thing to rest and one thing to bed, and what I don't want the lads doing is going, well, we haven't had a chance to enjoy that game, let's enjoy it as experience as we go, because that's kind of how you grow as a team and move forward.

7:00Rob, this is your seventh Prem Final, does this year feel particularly different at all? because I guess that block of six that you had was kind of with the same group wasn't it and you built together through those finals and maybe weren't perhaps ready enough for the first one was that is that fair enough in 16? Yeah yeah I would have said so I think the first one was a very new experience for everybody I actually thought you know when you actually look back how well we dealt with being in the top four for the first time because we kind of went through that season and kind of we started winning games I think we finished either finished first or second so we had the home semi and we dealt with the semi-final really well had good control through the game did what we wanted to do and then and but the final was a bit odd we turned up and the atmosphere was so different to anything else I've ever experienced as a coach there's just literally thousands and thousands of extra chief supporters there and we're driving through but we could hardly get through in the bus to get us dropped off and I think you were late weren't you we were late but you know we couldn't we almost couldn't go through because there were so many people there and you could almost feel I was sitting in the front of the bus going oh no as good as this is, as incredible as this amount of support is, I'm not sure if this is actually going to be zapping our emotional batteries a little bit.

8:09And I think it did. But I think we were then, as you said, that similar group was then prepared for how the other seasons or other finals or those big games, how they go and what you have to be ready for. And so that's probably the one thing that my experience of those games has hopefully helped the team. Because I've just said right from minute one on Monday, we're going to get everything we can do about the organisation of the week. we're going to try and get you today and tomorrow, Monday, Tuesday, things like ticketing for your families and friends, buses, transport, all the kind of stuff where we can just get those things dealt with out of the way so you can focus on rugby.

8:44We've done that pretty well. We've talked about what it might be like when we arrive, so not to let that distract you. And I know you have to experience it, but you can also prepare yourself a little bit for it. Same with the timings on the day. So we've talked it through. I've just said to these guys right from the start, I'll always treat you like men. I'm not going to try and just say, oh, I'm scared if I say it because it'll distract you. I've said something right from the start, I'll be honest with you. And that's what I said. I said, you'll find it different, those of you who haven't done it before.

9:08So get yourself ready to make the most of it. I think I'm right in saying that 16 final was also the same weekend that Exeter City made a playoff final as well. So like Devon had emptied, hadn't it? So as you rightly say, the support would have been ridiculous. And then 17, you must have learned so many lessons from 16. And then that went so deep, extra time, everything else. You've got to be ready for that sort of stuff happening, haven't you? I think I'm right in saying five out of the last six finals have been settled by a score. They're always tight these days and you've been in one that was as tight as ever, wasn't it?

9:36In that 17 one. I actually think some of the important things to get us ready for that final happened fairly early in the season. So we'd done so well the season before. We've been in the top four for the first time, got to the final for the first time. We actually started the following season quite poorly. I think we lost two out of four premiership games. It might be even three out of. and I remember thinking we've avoided the big question here because we'd always been up until that point an underdog team really we shouldn't have really got promoted because there was a former premiership team in there in the battle in the final so we shouldn't have really got promoted then we shouldn't have really stayed up because no teams didn't stay up who come out of the championship and didn't have any premiership history so we shouldn't really stay up and I think we really thrived on being a bit of an underdog team and I kind of said to the lads I kind of said come on guys we're gonna have to draw a line under this now because we've lost in the final last year we actually need to just talk to each other and go there should only be one successful outcome to the season which is winning a final anything else now will be a step back from where we were and I think it just let us clear our heads and go actually there's nothing wrong with being ambitious there's nothing wrong with putting a bit of pressure on ourselves and we actually grew through that season after that first month or so and that almost prepared us mentally for we almost went through the week by week process of becoming winners back then and I think that's what you have to do you can't just go oh we turned out because we've experienced it before because the hard part is not winning the final the hard part is getting there yeah you know I've said this numerous times you know we've got to the final probably the toughest way you can pretty much do it by coming up on the rails pretty late this year you mean yeah this year this is about the toughest way you can do it going away and in the semi-final is always tough we've won it like deep we've We've held on deep into the 80 minutes and now we're going away.

11:25Northampton, fair play to them. They used the advantage of having more consistency in the season to be able to rest up in the last week of the season, get a short turnaround. So now they get a short turnaround, but not for the group who played into their semi with Leicester. Now they've had a long turnaround in comparison to us. So we're doing it the hardest way we can do it. But that's the bit you have to try and get right because now we get to 80 minutes. It's a one-off 80-minute game. It's the other 19, 20 games you've got to win. It's really tough. Yeah, I got the stat wrong earlier. Six out of the last seven that's settled by a score.

11:58I guess if we take your other finals, you had the couple against Saris, which were probably heartbreakers, particularly 19, I guess, which was really tight. Then 20 that was really weird because it was October and raining and wasps. And then Quinns, where maybe you got dragged into a game you didn't want to play, perhaps. Is that fair enough? And does all of that show that it's not about getting to the final, it's about winning it? Yeah, 100%. This is your seventh chance and you've won it twice kind of thing. I understand because I think the last one against Quinns was a perfect example of as getting it wrong through the season rather than getting it right.

12:37So that first win, we slowly got it more and more right through the season. And we grew and we grew and we grew. And that culminated in the semi-final against Saracens here that we won. and so we probably that's the way we got it right we were growing through the season when we lost to Harlequins I think at the end of that season we were almost dipping I think we come my personal opinion I think we became a little bit complacent that we actually knew how to win these we actually that's where being in those finals started to work against us because there was almost a little bit of a complacency we know how to win these we know how to win these and Harlequins they're the ones who've made it the hard way and we know how to win these and they set the tone physically and emotionally but I think we'd been setting the tone quite not great the few weeks before we got to the final.

13:21You know we were poor here in our last round against Sale because we were on the back foot defensively pretty much all through that game we lost two players to yellow stroke kind of red cards and that both became reds and so we lost two key forwards just because we were fighting it out on our own five metre line in a game that we never needed to get ourselves in that scenario. We won the games and then we played Sale at home again in the semi-final. We won the games, but we lost players and we played in a poor way. We played in a, oh, we'll win in the end type mentality. That's how we played the final.

13:51We played like we'll win in the end. We lost by two points, I think. We just ran out of time. You know, and you can't do that. That's the other mentality is you can't wait for it to happen. You have to make it happen.

14:01Alfie: And so, as you've said already, Robert, it's about performing on Saturday and getting the job done now. But how proud are you to have led the club back into the final? Particularly, I guess, when you look back at the last 12 months, it's been a hell of a 12 months from where you were last year, plus also I suppose if we factor in the kind of uncertainty with the ownership and that we've got clarity around that now kind of like how pleased are you and proud are you and excited I suppose are you to be where you are now well I you know I've got to say I'm massively pleased and proud for the players more than anything else I think it's really important when you when you're involved in sport the thing you have to remind yourself of you shouldn't need to remind yourself of it but the thing you've got to make sure is front and center it's about the players now sometimes the players can do that really well and sometimes they can maybe not understand that and that's when they can maybe let themselves down but I think when you get a good group of guys and they understand that actually the success of this rugby club is based on them what they do on a day by day week by week moment by moment basis almost when you get a group of guys who embrace that and want to be that important you have a good team you know what you don't want to do is have a good guys who go well yeah oh great Rob says I'm important and that makes them a bit of a you a bit of a dick, do you know what I mean?

15:12Because there's two ways you do it. You either go, I'm really important or look at me, or you go, well, I'm really important. Well, the pressure on being an important person is that you have responsibility and you want that responsibility because that's what being important is. It always works two ways. And I think when you get that group who are, they understand what being important is, they understand that their individual success is tied to the team's success, is tied to the club's success, that's when you start to get that group who you really can feel proud of. You've been asked this about eight times today already but Manny how's he looking for the weekend?

15:41He looks good he's taken part in a lot of training he's been declared fit. Good news. This is great news obviously he's a quality player we'll make that call kind of probably by the end of today really just we'll just reassess him in training see how he really feels and we'll go from there but obviously the more quality players you have available at this stage of the season the better keeps training competitive and big games tend to bring the best out in big players and you know he hasn't become an international player from not doing that in big games. So it's obviously great to have him available.

16:12Ethan Roach is available again now after his HIA break. So we've got a few more options there across the 23, which is going to be important for us. Because the one thing it does feel like it's going to be is it's going to be a pretty full-on 80 minutes. Northampton play like that, we play like that. And so the more players you have available across the 23, the better you are. And just to clear up on Manny, now that England have a bit more say than they used to, There was a call early in the week to make that call, basically, that he would be able to make his own decision about whether to play?

16:42Yeah, so basically the way it worked out was that Manny was... I wasn't part of the call. It was between our medical staff, England's medical staff, and Manny. He was given all the information about where everyone felt he was, and then the decision was his. And, you know, England hadn't been obstructive at all. You know, they were very positive about things, allowed Manny to make the decision, and then Manny to feel himself fit, and we've been able to have him in training. And he's not, we were watching the football last night and Jed Spence is wearing like a big contraption on his face. He's not going to have to have anything like that if he does play.

17:14No, no, there's not been anything like that. Cool. I was also thinking, Rob, like, how long have you been here? As the DOR, I guess, because you've been here forever as a player and everything else. I started, I suppose I was the... 09, I suppose? I became like the head coach the year we got promoted, which was 9-10. Right. I was forwards coach before then in defence, bits and pieces. So I coached in roles within the group since I was 34. Defence, forwards, everything else, yeah. And please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to retire you or move you on or anything like that. But I'm always fascinated about your legacy here and how you want eventually to leave it.

17:51Because by next season, when Mark McCall's gone, you'll be by miles the longest serving DOR. And I'm not saying you're trying to finish or anything like that. But do you ever think about that final day, whenever there is, whether it's in 20 years' time or wherever, and how that happens? because you're so tied to this place and they're so tied to you as well, like leaving it in a great place eventually, whenever that is. I think that's the best way to describe it. If there was one thing I'd really like it to be, I'd like it to be after a season like we've had this season, not a season like we had last season.

18:20I think it would be very hard. I would like to think the experiences of those, of going through that would mean that it wouldn't happen again. I think that's the important thing. but for me, whenever it is, I'd like to walk away with the club in a great place. My wife says it to me all the time, she can't wait to sit in the seats in the middle of the grandstand there and have a pint before a game and it just feels great to watch the team. It will still feel pretty emotive whether we win or lose, I just know it's going to be like that but it will be different and I think that for me is how I'd like it to be.

18:57I'd like to enjoy watching a good side, good qualities, well set for the future. That's the way it should end. On a like note, top off after the semi-final, what happens if you win the final? How do you beat that? You don't have to go harder and harder and harder. Keep it consistent. Some things are just one-off things. They're just one-off things. Everyone loved that. But you don't need to try and repeat. If you try and repeat things that aren't real, they're not real. Yeah, yeah. And like I say, the thing I enjoy the most about watching the lads is them just be real, you know, and you can see it in their faces when they're real and you can see it when it's not.

19:36And for me, that was just the moment of that was what was going on at the moment. And, you know, there's no plans for anything else.

19:42Alfie: Well, Rob, Exeter back in a Prem Final. We wish you all the very best on Saturday. Thanks very much, guys.

19:55Alfie: Checking out online? Apple Pay makes it simple. When you tap the Apple Pay button, you can review your card information and shipping details. Need to make a change? Just tap to update your details before you pay. Then, all that's left, simply authenticate your purchase with Face ID to check out in seconds. Make online shopping a breeze with Apple Pay.

20:26Alfie: Okay, so Rob Baxter departs, but Ollie Woodburn steps in. Ollie, welcome onto the Ruck. We appreciate your time. Not far out, really. No, it's our pleasure. Not long away now from the Prem Final. Four eight hours. How does it feel as a player? I asked a similar question to Rob, but it feels like it's the obvious place to start here. Like from a player's point of view, what's this period like when you're not far away? You've kind of got a balance using that excitement, using the energy around the Prem Final, but also not making things too different. You know, we've come away with some incredible wins, especially in the last month.

20:59So our preparation is incredible. Our team, our system is incredible. So you've got to balance out what's different but also keep things quite familiar.

21:11Alfie: What's your role and maybe kind of like a Henry Slade, players like that who have been here before and been with the club when they've reached the finals previously to now be back there? do you kind of have wisdom to impart this week to the guys that maybe haven't yeah i try to um our senior players got different different roles in the team mine personally i'm not i'm not the biggest team talker i'm not like a hype man or anything but i hope young lads look to me and you know see someone who's who's cool-headed who keeps you know keeps a level head in that situation and if they need to talk or something needs to be said i don't mind saying it uh so So we each got our different roles in that.

21:49But coming back again after six years is such an incredible feeling. I almost took it for granted. We were going to Twickenham seven years in a row. You know, weeks before, I knew what my off-season was. And then you kind of get in that lull when you don't make it for years. And coming back again at this time, I'm just trying to make every moment count, try and grab every opportunity and make the most of it. We were asking you before, tell us which were the finals you played in, which were the ones you missed? I played 16, 17, 18, missed 19, played 20 and missed 21. Okay, so when you've played, largely positive.

22:26I've been on the pitch when we've won the Prem those two times. Talk to me about the things that happen for you when you win those Prem titles, like what goes well and then maybe contrast it with the times where you haven't and what maybe you've regretted or helps you in a week like this to go, don't get to 80 minutes or maybe 100 minutes and go man we didn't do what we needed to do so unfortunately i've lost more time so i've got too many lessons yeah um the ones we've won we just played as ourselves we didn't go out and do anything different we didn't try and chase highlights or chase game-winning moments you just did the basics for 80 minutes every action you get you just work as hard as you can as possible and in the times we lost we just we didn't i think That 16th final was really hurtful for me because it was the first time I was there, but I kind of didn't think I was worthy in a way.

23:18It was kind of just like looking around, oh, look at Twickenham, it's so amazing, so good to be here, but actually I've got a job to do. And that's what we're going to, that's what's been the message we've been trying to do this week, give to the boys. We've got a job to do, we've got a system in place. When we played well, we've gone flat out in that system and every chance we get. What about that, the ones you've won then? So 17, extra time, like as dramatic as it could get, apart from pens maybe. and then 20 completely different because it's COVID, it's raining, it's October and you're almost defending rather than winning the game at the end, aren't you?

23:49Because the Wasps had a late line-out pressure on. Yeah, they missed their line-out and I think that was the opportunity to get it but it was just a pressure game. 17 was vastly different. It was sunny, it was dry. Playing against Wasps both times but 17 they were just absolutely firecrackers So we had to stay in front of them. It actually kind of reminds me of Northampton because Wasps at the time were, I think, the top try scores in the year, most bonus points. So we had an opportunity to go out there and beat the best attacking team. And that's what we're going to try and do this weekend. And a lot of the story of these finals is that they're tight.

24:29I think in the early history of the playoffs, the finals weren't that tight. But in the last few years, they've all been settled by a score, apart from Sarri's sale, I think. So based on what you experienced last Saturday, Is there like a drop-call routine? Is there a plan for extra time and pens? Because it might happen. Who knows? The history shows us that it is a tight game, this final usually. Yeah, I mean, it's tough to plan for everything. So you've got to trust your leaders and trust the messages that come on the field at the same time. But equally, you don't want to be in a position where, you know, Bath might have been in the weekend where people in those positions didn't necessarily know what call to make.

25:04I don't know what the chat was for them. but we try and drill and we try to practice as many scenarios as possible but at the same time we haven't got a lot of time, we don't want to be on feet all day we don't want to overload ourselves with details so we've got a few systems in place but also we've got some really good leaders who've been there in the past and we can talk and be connected. Skinner screaming for that isn't he? If there's a chance he's going drop goal, drop goal right? He probably just wants a glory so yeah he'd be calling it for himself.

25:34Alfie: Speaking to Rob just now he described it as you guys have done it the hard way this year obviously had to fight to get into the top four yeah had to go from third go away in the semi-final is that is that a good or a bad thing I guess we'll find out maybe on we'll find out but we're saying it is a very good thing we're battle-hardened we've um if you see the teams we played in the last few weeks as people around us we've played incredible teams we played uh the top teams in the league and we beat them in different ways we've beat Saracens in the end quite comfortably um we beat Bath we came back from behind and Leicester was kind of like this to and fro throughout the whole game so we've got a lot of confidence we've got experience and there's so much to fall back on when you're when you're in the pits and you're knackered and it's going to be hot on the weekend and you look back at recent weeks and we've been there we've got that grit so you know we've got that confidence and it was a little while ago now right at the start of the season but when you played Saints and that kind of crazy draw where you had to come from behind as well I wasn't on the field at that time so it's actually way hard and watching talking to my family and friends and the fans the weekend watching the bath they were their hearts were in their throats but on the pitch I just had a job to do so you know playing Saints coming back yeah we've got that we've got that experience against them and we've got a good game plan what gives you the most like fear is the wrong word but like what makes you respect Saints the most oh there's lots to respect about Saints the way the bravery in their attack they attack from anywhere they're they're not afraid to to offload they're not afraid to keep the tempo whatever point in the game it is, whatever position in the field.

27:03And they've got superstar quality throughout the team. So they're not a hard team to look up to and respect. There's been a contrast, I guess, this season in the last few weeks with Pollock because maybe in the Welford Road game against Leicester, he was dragged into some stuff he didn't want to get dragged into. And then last Friday, he was strictly business. So it's like as much as everyone will go fascinated to watch how he goes, is your job as a team to drag him and their other game leaders out of the game they want to play and not necessarily like go on do a spoiling job but just sort of push them out of their comfort zone perhaps is that the right way of phrasing it well if you you watch the way we play we we put teams in very uncomfortable positions we we take them out of their comfort zones and we want to play the way we want to play we want to control the game we want to apply pressure so So not necessarily individuals, but we set the intensity, we set the pace and other teams have got to keep up.

27:59I was just going to say, on your side, there's been quite a lot of unsung heroes, if you look from the outside, perhaps. I know lots of players would hate picking out one player, but if you could pick out a couple of guys who you've had massive respect for this season, maybe some of the new lads, because there's quite a lot of faces that people before the start of the season wouldn't have known too much about, who have become epic players for you this season, haven't they? We're generally underdogs as a squad. I think Harvey Skinner is such a field general. He's almost a coach on the field. His detail, he's been incredible for other years.

28:37And he's been so physical as a 10. People come down his channel and he puts them back. And you saw that from that turnover he got towards the end of the game. He's metal. Who else? Henry gets too much. He's not an unsung hero. he's the opposite he's um and let's look at the four pack you know scott is ceo he's he's come over to a different different climate and he's been part of the squad for a very long time and he's you know people talk about age a lot but he's he's one of the best scrumagers and one of the best players um defensively especially around the around the field and then max nori he's um he's he hasn't played a lot of premiership rugby just for a lot of injuries and he's been thrust into a part of the season where we played our hardest games and he's excelled he's been incredible around the field so you know I could go on and list you know almost the whole team but um yeah we're full

29:26Alfie: of it you said earlier when you got to six finals in a row you almost took it for granted besides the fact of just being back in the final is there something you're particularly looking forward to or that you're looking forward to appreciating on the weekend um well I've just got the picture in the mind of lifting the trophy at the end that's um you said it's such an incredible trophy isn't heavy 26 kilos apparently so hopefully everyone's done their prep for that we won't be able to lift after game absolutely nothing um uh it's hard to predict what what it'll be like i know where we'll be um i know the game we're playing but i don't know what what to expect so every moment i'm trying to try try and stay in the moment and enjoy as everything as it comes this is a silly question so feel free to tell me it is a silly question but what's like play on this week for prepping for if you win it and what's not okay like i guess everyone's different but you've seen when people have won titles before like i was i watched the bordeaux leinster one and they've all got their goggles and the champagne and stuff like that like do you have to sometimes stop yourself and be like what am i doing packing goggles just in case we win the title like you know what i mean that sort of stuff or like you've printed t-shirts and it's like oh what if we don't win we're gonna have to been them like is there is there weird things like that happen in a week like this that sort of pull you away there's two mindsets isn't it because some people will say oh don't jinx it don't jinx it but then i i like to manifest things so i'm preparing to win like you visualize self-winning you're unpacking some stuff packing some things in my bag so i can enjoy the celebrations with the boys so yeah i um i'm a big believer in you know in manifesting those things i've always found it fascinating whether it's like sporting teams that don't win things or like presidents don't get elected like what happens to all the stash yeah for the losing people does it end up getting donated to oxfam or something you'll find it in a charity yeah fuel to the fire i think ollie really appreciate your time and all the best on the weekend thank you for having me guys awesome cheers mate so first rob baxter then ollie woodburn that's good fun will talking about ski goggles and that's always fascinated me in this modern era of like doing it for the gram in the celebrations like whose job whose job is it to pack the bag that's full of cigars and goggles and like champagne and beers and all the stuff and like does does the team manager have to go around in the week being like look if we win what do you want like what's the stuff that you need for the bus back and all that i found it quite interesting that ollie said that he's packing a few things sky always presumed it was a team manager was almost having to have a couple of boxes somewhere that no one ever sees.

31:58Unlocking case of victory, yeah. But also then there's silly things like, I don't actually know, but whether it's Saints or Chiefs who win the final, they're going to want to do like a bus parade and all that on Monday. Like Bath last year and Barbary's in his budgies and things like that. You've got to sort of weirdly plan for all this stuff and then look like a mug if you don't win the final. It's all the weird stuff of finals, isn't it? What's the cancellation policy on that bus? Make sure it's refundable, yeah. Tony Rose sort it out I mean they can go around this convertible Bentley that we were talking about that's true yeah there you go might not fit all of them in sorted yeah

32:30Alfie: it's only a few like who gets in like Baxter maybe depends on the final whoever kicks the winning drop goal right there you go might come down to it might do sounds like they've got a drop goal plan I was thinking about that on the train down here it was like a couple of the finals in the last 15 years have gone to extra time including Chiefs 17 loads of the finals have been settled by a score so I know I'm now backtracking classic on what I said earlier in the week that Saints are going to walk it. I didn't really say that, did I? I said that that was, if it went to form, I guess, Saints would tear, but finals different.

33:04Alfie: Where are you with that now? Because as we've said throughout the day, finals are often close and even the Sarri sale one that you mentioned just now, which was more than a score, was actually still quite a close game for a chunk of it. It was late that it was 10 points. Yeah, exactly. So do you expect that again on Saturday? I'm not going to flip-flop. I still believe that if Saints play their game, they're going to win the title. I feel like they've got too much firepower. They've got such a well-knitted attacking game. If Pollock's back in business mode again, that's going to be pretty tricky to stop.

33:41Finn Smith has been supreme recently. Guys like Freeman. Alex Mitchell, we should mention that. He's back fit, and I reckon he'll end up on the bench. Impact off the bench. That's a big impact that. And then, yeah, we found now that Faye Weboso's fit. And so maybe my prediction from earlier in the pod will be true that we end up in the 23. Team's out midday Friday, but that's two big guys coming back in that team. I just feel like it should be a Saints day. But the thing that's niggling in the back of my head, perhaps, is what the Exeter scrum did to the Bath scrum where they turned that game.

34:16and the thing that Saints are lacking at the moment is all of their props, isn't it? Trev Davison, guys like that. And you're thinking, it hasn't mattered yet, but it might matter in the final. But I think if all things are equal and our endlessly brilliant stat is true that the third team never wins the league, then it's surely got to be a Saints final.

34:38Alfie: What are you saying? I am also going to back what I said on the pod on Monday that I think there is just something about this extra team and their run at the end of this season, the away semi-final, that they are hard and just like a real tough group. So I don't see Saints running away with it. I agree with you in the sense that I think there is a reason Northampton were top of the pile for so long this season. And typically we then see those teams go on, I think. Is that true, actually? Well, I can give you the stats on this. I had two and a half hours on the train, mate. So I've been doing loads of research.

35:12This is rare for the Rucks. Is my assumption correct? So here we go. Here's my rundown of Prem Finals stats for you. Both teams have won two titles, Saints 14-24, Exeter 17-20. Saints are seven-point favourites for the bookies, which is actually closer than I thought. I would say that's about right, yeah. Last finals have been separated by two, four, ten, three, two, six, and three points. Tight games. So that's, yeah, as we said earlier in the pod, six of the last seven won by less than a score, and that was Sarri's 35, Sale 25. before that there was a 17 point win Sarri's Exeter 2018 and then before that Exeter beat Wasps 23-20 an extra time so again largely tight this is the 24th Prem final nine of those have been one-sided so more than 10 point winners so it's more likely than not it's going to be a nipper right then on to your league leaders stat 11 league leaders have won the league won the final okay yeah so 46 percent and interestingly the league leaders have won the league for four years in a row now Tigers, Saris, Northampton, Bath were all the top team maybe it was my five of the last six the one that didn't do it was Bristol as we know Bristol because Exeter were league leaders in 2020 and they won the league too so very recent history shows that you are first in the table and you do win the league and that's why that Bristol one was so galling because they're the one that

36:35Alfie: didn't yeah so maybe I had a bit of recency bias because I kind of had this feeling of well if they've been the best or they've been top of the table for a real chunk of the season they finished first so I think Northampton will probably it makes sense when you think it all through doesn't it because you go you win the ties you win the league let's inverted commas you finish top you do the first pass the posting you're largely therefore secured in the top four a few weeks before everyone else you also get home semi-final that means that the last round of your regular season you don't need to win uh saints didn't have to they lost the coins hilariously then you are at home in your semi-final so you're more likely to win than not and you get longer you get to choose when that semi-final is friday you get an extra day all of it is in favor of finishing first which is right isn't it yeah it should be that yeah you finish top of the league and you get all the benefits but you're saying there's a chance you say yeah well you're saying there's Not a chance, actually, because of our third-placer stats.

37:33So on that front, 2010 was the last time a third-placed team made the final. Saracens lost to Leicester. And then the year before, that was the only other one. London Irish finished third and lost to Leicester as well. So, as we keep saying, the third-placer never wins the title. Graveyard slot for Exeter.

37:52Alfie: Do you agree with Ollie Woodburn that the way in which Exeter have done it is a good thing, though? Is good preparation for them? I guess if you're asking an Exeter player, they have to say yes to that question. They can't go, oh, it's terrible. We're all screwed. We're so tired. Played our final last week. Yeah, we've done it already. We're already on the beach. But look, you've got to look at it that way, haven't you? If you're Chiefs, you go, we've been in playoff mode for a month. We've won all these big games. We've won at Welford Road Away. We've beaten Saris here by 20 points. We've won the semi-final in the most amazing circumstances.

38:24chances it sounded like they did enjoy the win on Saturday night which is a cool thing I don't think he said it here but Rob Baxter said earlier in a different chat that some guys came back here and had some ice bath beers after that bath game so they gave them 24 hours or so to to rest and recover and enjoy that because you you got to enjoy it haven't you but I think that's why I think this last 20 minutes of this game is going to be fascinating because it's probably going to be tight it might weirdly it might not actually be tight at half time it might be one of those games that Saints rattle ahead and Exeter drag them back and then we get a last 20 minute showdown which will be cool and that's where I think Manny if he is on the bench could be crucial couldn't he?

39:04If he's coming on and you're a tired body defending someone with that game breaking sort of rubber man ability to like never be tackled that could change a game might come down to it I hope it's an epic like we love these prim finals they're great aren't they?

39:19Alfie: Well as you've just run through how close the games have been recently it's often it's a great day out isn't it it's often a great game 27 degrees 28 degrees more often than not I know we spoke about a few there where it was chucking it down but it's a baking hot day at Allianz Stadium Twickenham it's yeah I think it could be a cracker looking forward to it and wouldn't it be odd perhaps in a lovely way because we're standing here at Exeter to go that was a season Chiefs won the league you'd be like really wow okay yeah like if you just looked at it as a whole nine month carousel you'd go like oh exeter won the title wow okay it'd be it wouldn't be maybe as stark as when quins won it a few years ago because that was they were dreadful in jan until january and then they just went and won the league but you wouldn't say that exeter have been the best team in this league and you wouldn't say that exeter being the second best team in this league either i mean they literally finished third but you're going and probably you'd say they haven't had as good a season as tigers either yeah and i was just about to say that where they are if you're getting people to do one two three they'd go northampton bath most people put tigers in pre six nations people might have put bristol in who then dropped away like a stone like and then saris for like three weeks where everyone went oh hang on they've just put 85 on sale and then they've gone and gone and gone and then they dropped so what a story yeah it'd be great wouldn't it it's going to be good fun it's going to be really good fun as we've said already at the top of the pod we will be there after the game podding giving our reaction to it let's hope it's an absolute cracker your I'm not going to be there.

40:52I'm going to be having a weekend off. And then I guess the next you're here from me on the ruck will be in Johannesburg. Yeah, there you go. Which feels really weird, doesn't it?

41:01Alfie: It is, isn't it? Sandy Park's Johannesburg. Well, I remember last year it was like Prem Final. And then it was like flying off to Australia. Basically the next week. Yeah, it was Lions, wasn't it? It's similar, isn't it? The season ends and then you're off to South Africa. And look, we slagged it earlier in the pod. But stay with us, guys. we're going to be I think the only pod on the ground at all three England tests this summer awesome so Joburg we're going to be doing three pods a week we're going to be doing the Saturday night we're going to be doing the Thursday preview we're going to be doing sort of Alfie Monday wrap up about all the other Nations Championship games with our other crew on the ground because we're going to have Peter O 'Reilly down in New Zealand Australia following Ireland we're going to have Elgin following the sort of Fiji leg let's say at Murrayfield and at Cardiff City and Liverpool We're going to be at Hill Dickinson.

41:48By the way, the Fiji leg. Yeah, the Fiji leg, which is, by the way, around the UK, yeah. And then we're going to be in Santiago del Estero. And I'm hoping by that point that we can also give you a dispatch from Buenos Aires when it's an England-Argentina semifinal of the World Cup. It's on. It's coming home. Oh, my God. 4-2 last night, Alfie. My brain is so scrambled at the moment.

42:07Alfie: I was like, what are you talking about? Oh, OK, sure. Football, yeah. We'll do like a game ruck crossover episode. So you're in Argentina for the final? So the week of the World Cup semi-final and final, Alex and I are going to be in Argentina. You guys are often somewhere random for major football tournament, aren't you? Yeah, so two years ago we were watching England lose the Euros final at 7am in Auckland with an orange juice. I actually watched Ollie Watkins bang one in against Holland in an absolutely packed British pub which had the most stereotypical stuff, like a Winston Churchill thing on the wall.

42:44and the place went wild. It was so weird being like 19 ,000 kilometres from home, like celebrating a Watkins winner in the 90-odd minute. We also watched the win on pens in Dunedin in some random flat and then interviewed Steve Borswick at breakfast, having not slept. Like it was, these are weird summers, but we're up for it. We're doing three continents, three weeks, loads of pods, but we got the Prem Finals to go first.

43:07Alfie: Yeah, and we'll have all the reaction to England's no doubt, well, there's always news with England, whether it's good or whether it's bad, until we bring you across that. We'll be there on Saturday for the Prem Final, a pod for you on Saturday following that game. Appreciate all of you that have been listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.