Can Los Pumas inflict another Argentine defeat on England?

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0:52Hello, everyone. This is The Rock, the journalist rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. And, well, look, Benvenido a Buenos Aires. We're sitting, Alex Lowe and I, in a side street, a square off Plaza de Mayo by the Casa Rosada, where Eva Perón would meet her people, announce things to her public. And, like, no one's really gathered for us, Alex. But we're sitting in Buenos Aires, and a nation, let's say, wrapped by World Cup fever. It's slightly calmed down. we're sitting here on a Thursday morning but Wednesday night it went off didn't it slightly shocked just now just before Will's press record by a woman who appeared on my shoulder and ripped open her top to then reveal a t-shirt with an Argentina badge on it safe to say the excitement levels haven't dropped since last night we watched the game in the official fan zone estimates of 20 ,000 to 30 ,000 in there in Palermo which is quite a sort of leafy nicer suburb of Buenos Aires.

1:58Right next to the American Embassy. And we were, as I'd written about in the paper, under strict instructions from everybody to go undercover, incognito. The one problem with that is that when all the Argentinians start singing their song, which is, if you're not jumping, you must be English, and 20 ,000 people are jumping and we're the only ones not. Like seven journalists standing still. We sort of give ourselves away a little bit. you have never heard 20 ,000 people more quiet than when Anthony Gordon scored. I genuinely thought, so we were on a little stage, weren't we, above the masses, let's say, there was like an accreditation area for the press, and the commentary, the incredibly partisan commentary, was so loud that it was hard to hear yourself think.

2:45And I have a tiny bit of Spanish because I did it at school, but it's lapsed massively. but it was very obvious how one side of the commentary was. It was a kind of, it was like racing commentary. I'll try and do my little impression of it. It was like, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, Leo, go, go, go, go. It was just insane. But we're hearing all that. But then he did do a little gore for when Gordon scored, but it was so quiet. I thought it had been disallowed or was offside or something. And bear in mind that when God Save the King was being played out on the screen and sung in America, in Atlanta, the place went nuts they were jumping waving their flags chanting you may have understood the chance will i suspect as englishman it's probably best i didn't understand the chance there's a fair few malvinas references let's say a lot of that as a few of those flags and so like the excitement levels were through the roof but they were also really tense over here everyone we spoke to by the way all lovely like super nervous about the anxiety around safety was just that kind of thing of you know if you lose and it's everyone gets a bit hyped up and you're the englishman you're the englishman but actually everyone we spoke to throughout the day were genuinely going just maybe just stay calm don't don't wear an england shirt or anything but everyone we spoke to was lovely and they were all just as anxious as as we were about how it was going to play out they they'd seen their team scrape through three rounds they kind of knew they had faith in Messi because he's a god but they were super nervous and then they were excited when the anthem came and then it was tense and then Anthony Gordon scores and it is silent and you look around this huge expanse of people and it's incredible silence and glued to the screen as we all know and as listeners of the game pod every fan will know as that second half went on and England sort of shrunk and Argentina went forward, the volume levels and excitement, anticipation rose and rose and rose.

4:48And we were getting crushed by the inevitability of the inexorable defeat. And then just this explosion at the end of the game, which was remarkable to witness. And then as we spilled out onto the streets and made our way back into the middle of the city, as did tens of thousands of others who gathered around the obelisk. Honestly, it must have been hundreds of thousands. It was insane. It was remarkable. and right outside the England team hotel partying until 4am bear in mind the game finished over here at like 10 past 6 they were still there around the obelisk just as darkness falls right outside the England hotel fireworks popping off until 4am singing and chanting and jumping and just incredible scenes and that's just to make the final I know it helped them that it was England which by the way they won 4 years ago So they're used to all these celebrations and they're still going mad for it.

5:41We were saying, what on earth would happen to England as a nation if England had won the World Cup? Because we've got no... Now, most people who are alive weren't alive for 66. So they have nothing to grab hold of what happens when it all goes balmy. But then that would have been an obvious expression expression of all the heart heartbreak and hurt for the last six decades but with Argentina it's like well you've already got three World Cups in the back pocket and you did it last time and this is only the semi-final but look at you all it shows the fervour, the fan fervour out here, it's just unbelievable, unmatched actually, I've never seen anything like it, it's incredible I remember going to a San Lorenzo game 2013 was it?

6:30I went in 17 and sadly it was a 0-0 but genuinely spent most of the game just watching the ultras watching the fans the banners and the flares just the fervor is remarkable and it does spill over to a degree into the rugby well we're heading off to Santiago del Estero on actually we're going today for Saturday's tests you know there was some some outrageous behavior on this tour last year from from fans aimed at Asher Apocu for Jor and Chandler Cunningham South. They racially abused them, didn't they? One of the England players has said, you know, we're prepared for the football hooligan type of fan.

7:07And, you know, I know what he means by that. It's the fervour, the passion is to be admired. You just hope it doesn't spill over. But the culture is very different between rugby and football. And I was talking to someone about that and the idea of, essentially, being very general here, but the rugby culture is more well-off, more well-travelled, more well-educated. so it would be less inclined to be whipped up by a storm over the Falkland Islands or something. But you get the odd idiot and as we'll discuss we've just been to see the England camp and that has been a topic of conversation in camp ahead of Saturday's Test match which feels a bit sort of after the Lord Mez show.

7:47Just a bit, wow. Or after it and then before it, with the Sunday final. There's nobody here in Buenos Aires talking about the rugby other than those who happened to see Henry Pollock gesticulating out of the team bus just before kick-off yesterday, which has caused a bit of a stir over here. I'm sure just a prank. Schoolboy type. It was quite a schoolboy, like, do a Mooney, Henry, do it out the window. But anyway, it's been an incredible place to be the last 24 hours, and we'll be back in town on Sunday for the final, which promises to be an epic occasion in Buenos Aires. Well, as a flag for the rest of this pod, we're going to have a chat with Juan Martin Fernandez-Lobbe, who I actually chatted to before the football.

8:30So we didn't talk about the result, thank God. But he mentioned that point. We'll get to it later in the pod. But the rugby atmosphere against the football atmosphere is a bit different. So see what he says on that later in the pod. But yeah, before we move on to the ruck, we'll finish the game. We'll finish their pod for them. Because my colour from last night was... So we all came back on the metros. we sort of walked for a while because the stations were so packed you couldn't get in them and then found a tube train the tube train comes along going all the way down the platform people are banging the windows singing carriages are rocking carriages are genuinely bouncing as you're going along the tracks and it's being encouraged by the driver like he was leading some of the songs through the tannoy yeah you can't imagine someone doing that on gwr can you like see it say it sorted rather than going like hurricane songs or whatever but then me and one of our colleagues nick simon for the daily mail we we went along to the obelisk that square that you're talking about where the england team hotel is and is now barricaded by the way to stop the breaking the glass and it was just unbelievable to be there they're all it wasn't very drunken at all it was a lot of women it was a lot of kids it was a lot of young people it was a very friendly atmosphere like when it became clear that we were English we we got a bit of like throwing the hands in the face sort of stuff but it was all very good natured and interestingly yeah people were like oh so why are you here and we're like oh there's rugby on the weekend oh really is there where's that and we're like oh Santiago oh wow and that's between the English national team and the Pumas yeah yeah yeah so doesn't catch me capturing at all but flares popping off and people climbing on lampposts and traffic lights and messy everywhere we've seen cats dressed as messy dogs dressed as messy everyone's dressed as messy there's messy toys like every shop you go to has got messy on it one of the great like i mean we wanted england to win and it would have been mad to have seen it but it's been special being here really hasn't it yeah it's like what's the sort of like cultural sporting experience to just witness it and who knows what it'll be like on Sunday if they win.

10:40Yeah it's interesting talking to Borthwick today Jamie George because these guys are they are sports fans like Jamie George in particular is a massive football fan and cricket fan huge cricket fan but he's also the England captain so he's got to be careful with what he says and I he gave a very a very good answer to a question I asked him a very positive answer about the state of English sport but but what had occurred to me watching England in that second half and the reason it's relevant to rugby and cricket is we all sort of we rode the wave of basball in cricket because it was england doing something so different to their dna very un-english very un-english and and i loved it as a you know as a sports fan as a cricket fan i loved watching that iteration of the england team i never felt it would last and i remember when nicole and lawrence booth brought out their book on basball i thought it was very well timed because it could it wasn't going to last forever it was like that wave that you rode up to the beach but at some point waterstones when it's still relevant it was going to crash and burn and it's crashed and burned and it sort of became a bastard it lost perspective of what it stood for and collapsed we all know that that's another podcast but it just got me thinking of you know they came and they had it they at least had a go at changing the philosophy and the mindset and the dna of of their team and it lasted and it delivered some scintillating cricket some incredible results we've seen the The England rugby team talk about wanting to do that, bold and big and brave, but ultimately they can never separate themselves from their DNA.

12:13And they shrink back to this weight of the shirt. Particularly when the pressure's on. And we talked about in Pennyhill Park last Thursday about that kind of England teams want to be underdogs until the point where they're favourites and then they can't cope with it. Did we see a bit of that with football last night? It's almost like, oh my God, we should make the World Cup final for the first time in 60 years and we can't quite think how to do it. That's the connection because the language that Steve Borthwick has used about his England team, which didn't translate up to the field, is the same language that Thomas Tuchel has used at this World Cup about England being courageous and bold and brave.

12:49And they were that. And they stood up to some pretty gutter tactics from Argentina, all elbows and fists. And I actually love watching that kind of thing. It's a proper test of temperament and character. And I thought England rode it. And then they take the lead. and that's the point when you're like right where's your courage and then they shrunk and and then it's Dan Burnham none of the words match the deeds and you just got me thinking about the wider context of of like particularly the three national sports there's bound to be hundreds of counter examples and I even now I'm thinking of someone like Andy Murray who who was in a generation where there were players who were more silky and more talented than him but the reason that we loved watching Andy Murray play was because he fought and got everything out of himself.

13:36That show of character. Didn't try and talk one game and play another. He was who he was and drove it to the nth degree. And I just... It's just... I don't really have a conclusion to it other than it's just interesting that this year we've seen Bas Ball crash and burn. We've seen the England rugby team talk about trying to be something but then they didn't have the courage of their convictions. And we've seen the England football team try and be something and ultimately also not having the courage of their convictions. Just very interesting to me to then talk to coaches and players who, they are fans, but they also will understand that dynamic of how you manage.

14:15Yeah, really interesting. So let's bring it to the rugby then. And for those of you who haven't read our pieces online yet, the England team is the same. Same 15, slightly tweaked bench. So Asher Apokifold-Jaw moves to cover. a tight head george kloska drops out he it he was he did have a little bit of a back issue they've said but probably would have been okay for saturday so not risking him essentially it's a shame for him after making his debut but then it gives a chance for manny yogan to come onto the bench who could make his debut uh ben spencer then replaces alex mitchell as the scrum half cover a man who possibly shouldn't be on this tour anyway because he kind of needs a shoulder tune up surgery but is here because Alex Mitchell pulled his hammy again in Fiji so courage of convictions Henry Pollock he said himself he wanted to start he always has done competitive guy driven and for all the kind of starters finisher stuff that Eddie Jones started and people have continued players want to start and fans want to see the value of someone like Henry Pollock starting but England and Steve Borswick say his value is brilliant and it's valuable for the last 20 minutes, which is where he will remain.

15:34I actually agree with Steve on this right now. And I think the best way of analysing it is to direct everyone to the piece that Charlie Morgan wrote about how you get the best out of Henry Pollock. He wrote an interview with Tom Pearson towards the end of the season and he's done an analysis more recently of Northampton getting the best out of Pollock by stationing him in between two big bruises. Crabbe and Goyle to his Malfoy. So if England are going to do the same thing, then they're picking Pollock ahead of Ben Earl at number eight. And I just don't see how you can justify dropping Ben Earl right now.

16:10And he was a bit chippy about it today, Ben. And he's like, oh, you guys, you want to see the back of me? I literally just asked him about the staggering level of contribution that he's making to this team. I don't see... I think England have gone from having three sevens in the back row to now recognising that they need a bit of punch and power. And I was asking Steve Borthwick about that today. So hence Chessam at six and Pepper at seven and the kind of emergence of Van Rensburg, who I think ultimately would be their 12. The need to stand up to the physicality and the power element of the modern game.

16:47Henry Pollock undoubtedly could make an impact in games from the start. it's not him being on the bench I don't think is a slight on him I think it's more a recognition of how do you if you're gonna get the best out of him there's no point having him and Ben Earl together you could not from the start I think you can operate them as a you could finish a game like that or as a one-two punch so I do see there's no rush to start Pollock he's making huge impact for England off the bench right now. I don't think there's any need to force it. Because apart from anything else, to do it well, you're dropping Ben Earl.

17:27One of your best players. He had my vote as England Player of the Year last year. Ultimately, it went to Joe Hayes, I think, who had a really good Six Nations. But Ben Earl, throughout the year, he's relentless in what he does. It's one of those things, it's easy to say, let's get Pollock in. Who'd you take out? How do you rebalance it and who'd you take out? It's a much harder question to answer. So my devil's advocate countering, my counter punch, I kind of wrote about this on Sunday for Monday because there are some funky things that ended up happening in the Fiji game where she thought okay accidental Marcus Smith at nine but interesting and Pollock hat-trick like interesting like Calorion interesting.

18:06I guess maybe it's not a full counter argument to yours but a sort of different aspect of it all i think there's a big challenge here for both sides of the argument let's say the borthwick side of it and the pollock side of it the management of pollock is a big is going to be a big issue and will remain a big issue for borthwick as long as he has the job i think because and and i guess on the other side the challenge for pollock is not getting impatient and frustrated and feeling like you're not being given your chances and your opportunities and then starting to play differently or mess around in training for example or something like that and it sounds from everything they're saying is he's doing it all positively now but you can just see this guy this tigger energetic bloke on the sidelines being like i don't understand this anymore yeah in a while if if they don't manage it cleverly which we hope they do and that becoming a challenge for both where it's like because it wouldn't be just it's not just a pr selection it's not like we're saying he has to get him in to be popular with the supporters it's because pollock is a fantastic back row and is scoring hat tricks and like breaking games open that need breaking open and maybe that some of that comes back to this courage of convictions thing where it's like does england doing the same thing at a world cup beat the best does it beat france and south africa and new zealand and ireland in the final two games of the tournament which they hope to be in and does doing something differently get them into position where you go well it's not very english but it changes their dynamic i guess that would be the argument on the other side like it does relate a bit to the q4 stuff that steve both it would talked a lot about last november when they used to be bad at it and then got good at it when they got good they got good at closing out those games because look at the bench that they were bringing on they were sending on six lions will stewart luke kandiki or jamie george ellis genge tom curry henry pollock all in one go mitchell or sometimes finn smith on the bench as well like marcus smith that they would have all these lines particularly up up front like that those that experience of of lions but also the blend of dynamism and power and the england's bench has been denuded since then they were unable to do it anywhere close to the same yes there's a management job to be done because they're all ambitious they all want to start but the way that the games are if Pollock starts he's going to have to do a lot of hard carrying grunt work because test matches don't open up or others do it for him like a Martin and a Genge and a Chessam but at the moment Ben Earl is also doing that that's the way that England currently set up is to almost earn And they're right.

20:58And the Fiji game, I guess, was the most obvious example of just attack Fiji at source until they're completely spent. And then on comes Pollock and he can score a hat-trick with three touches. That's just the most obvious example of building the platform and then off you go. And so therefore, if you want Pollock to do that, you've got to be convinced that that's going to have more impact than Ben Earle. and be worth it to not then have him coming on in that last quarter when, you know, all England's research will say how tight games tend to be and that's when you need to introduce a change of dynamic.

21:33And one of their issues in the Six Nations was they were unable to do that. Discipline didn't help, obviously. So I think that's where Bulfit comes from with the Pollock thing. It's not a punishment. It's not that he doesn't rate him. I think he just sees him. That's his best role right now. and I don't think it has to be seen in the same context as Marcus Smith, for example, who's essentially in the starting team because of an injury, but otherwise he's England's Swiss Army knife on the bench. He can now cover nine, as you say. Pollock is there to be used as a weapon, and I understand the temptation and I understand his own frustration, but I can see the value.

22:13He makes an impact when he comes on, and you need players to do that, and I think he's well-placed at the moment. just around that bit of, I guess, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating when there's a game on the line at the World Cup, quarterfinal, semifinal. When do they bring on Pollock? Do they trust him? Because we saw in 2023 these lovely young dynamic players on the bench, not used. Theo Dan, same in the Sixth Nation, didn't trust the backup props, backup hooker. And that's rounding off that bit with Tuchel of like Saka sitting on the bench, England could try and finish that game and win it 2-0 but it's oh better get Dan Burnon for some big headers just in case anyway so let's do a quick other couple of bits on the team and then we'll tee up Juan Martin Fernandes' lobby Marcus Smith remaining at full-backs interested with Freddie Stewart in the team like when England have won here like last year it was very kick-heavy 80 kicks across two games I think the first test last year they kicked a third of the time they had the ball but then played sparkly off it and defended sparkly as well as we've said that's interesting and you'd imagine Argentina are going to as lots of teams will try and exploit Marcus's less good high ball ability they've still got Freeman they've still got Faber-Boso on either wing who are good under the high ball but I feel like that's going to be a big area for people like Santi Carreras and Alba Noz to exploit yes I agree and I wondered if they might go Freddie Stewart and poor Freddie travel 30 ,000 miles a summer without getting a game he's the one of about eight or nine I've done the whole trip without a minute.

23:47But I like the intent behind picking Marcus because essentially, and this is no slight on the man or the player because his game has evolved a lot, but if England pick Steward, it means they are setting up to play a certain way because we know how both of them think. And don't have the spark off the bat if they do win some crumbs. By picking Marcus, they want to test Argentina. It doesn't mean they're not going to kick a lot. But if you've got Finn Smith, Henry Slade and Marcus, they'll be set up to try and play sparkly as they did out here a year ago. I like what that selection signifies about what England want to achieve.

24:33Like many, I'm not convinced of him as a fullback. I don't think it brings out the best of him. all of those questions but how often do we say we want coaches to pick players for what they can do not what they can't do yeah very true so it's what we've basically been saying as well yeah this is this is a this is a sort of a prime example of that i think if you're picking steward you're picking him for what he can do but that's would be reflective of what england would therefore try and do so i i think they'll want i think it's indicative of the way that they might want to try and attack Argentina off kicks, loose ball, counterattacks, that kind of thing.

25:10Last couple to finish before we tee up our man Fernandes Lobby. Important this, isn't it? Really, like end of a long season, but they've won two games only this calendar year, Wales and Fiji, and only seven of 19 away games in the Borswick era. And there I'm counting genuine away games, not Fiji in Everton, and not the neutral matches at the World Cup, where they obviously won in France, but they weren't necessarily the away team. And the last time they've won away was here and in the USA last year. So it's been a whole year since they've won an away game. They've lost in Rome, they've lost in Paris, they've lost in Joburg.

25:49We've said it building up to this, but however much about the travel, however much about the tiredness and the mad schedule that we've been on as well, albeit we're not playing 80 minutes every Saturday, and the way we're not sure about the teams going, they've really got to win like going back to a defeat then is the narrative shifts back to well it's one win in seven and pressure back on and we're all going to be going right what does bill sweeney think of this still aren't we like that's that's genuinely the reality of it there's an argument if you ask you ask steve orfick about this kind of thing you will always revert to it's the most important game because it's the next game and he doesn't like people talking about games in the past and all that but i think there's a genuine argument that this is the most important of the three summer tests because they went to joe berg to play the world champions altitude and that's england we knew going out there england were not at that level and they were blown away for 13 minutes and whatever they did afterwards is in the context of the fact the game was already gone it was a respectful sort of then they go to play fiji in liverpool and it's a fiji team it's the worst fiji team that we've seen in a long long time they were a shambles they had nothing could and England went England did really well went after them at the weakest point and dominated but again on the other side like how much could you know that was the whole conversation wasn't it afterwards what do you really take from a game that was so one-sided like have they proven anything it was a good training run executed some things nicely but they haven't really proven anything for me in that game so coming here is the most level test most even test of of the three it's almost the most important opportunity to to demonstrate that a way in what could be a fairly feisty environment the travel challenges everything like that that they can then go and show who this England team is in a way where they're not blown away by the best in the world and they don't put 70 points on an atrocious VG team but actually they're tested and they're challenged and they come through it there's a real argument that this could be the most important of the three games.

27:52Yeah, and a team that Borthwick's never lost to. He's won five out of five, so not winning would be worse than what he usually does against this lot. He's kind of kryptonite for the Pumas, isn't he? So let's get a Pumas perspective. I had a great chat on Wednesday before the football, as we keep mentioning, with Pumas assistant coach Juan Martin Fernandez Love, the great former back row who's got some good memories of playing against England. So here he is next.

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28:57Okay, a pleasure to be joined by Argentina's great former back row and current Puma's assistant coach, Juan Martin Fernandez-Lobbe. Great to have you on the Ruck, Juan Martin. Tell me where you are and how prep's going for the England game. At the moment, we are in Santiago del Estero, up north in Argentina. And the week has been great, to be honest. We've been training very hard. It's been intense. We're in winter, but it's getting hot. At the moment, I'm here in Santiago, so nothing. I think it's been good. It's been a good three days since we arrived here from the game against the Welsh guys, so it's good.

29:39Yeah, tell me a little bit about Santiago del Estero. We're coming up on Thursday to join you guys. It's known to be quite a warm place. There's some geothermal pools in Rio Hondo nearby. Yeah, exactly. The Termas de Rio Hondo. And it's a place where in winter, it could, they say maybe on Friday, it's going to be 31 degrees. Okay, in the middle of winter, that's pretty hot. Yeah. yeah and so in summer imagine summer summer is impossible yeah it's a place well known for for there's not a lot of activity between noon and four o 'clock for four thirty you know right because people are used to the to the heat so so they go back to bed for a while for a little nap for a siesta yeah for a siesta exactly will good spanish yeah okay so well what time's our kickoff 4 p.m so hopefully it's a bit cooler by then 4 10 everyone's woken up by the time the rugby kicks off hopefully hopefully hopefully especially us yeah and you guys have played there before you played the spring box and beat them there so i think i was looking between the football players and the rugby players no argentinian team has ever lost in this new stadium because it was only built five or six years ago wasn't it wasn't it yeah and we beat scotland with the last play of the game Also, that was our first game here.

31:00It was in 2022, I think. Then, as you said, we managed to beat the Springboks in 2024, maybe. And yeah, I didn't know about the football. Hopefully, we can keep that trend going on Saturday. Yeah, yeah. So, I was looking. I think the Argentinian national team have played Chile and drawn 1-1 and then beat Curacao 7-0. maybe some good omens for the Pumas on Saturday yeah hopefully we'll have to work very very hard but hopefully we can get we can be on the good side of the ball yeah and just to tell our listeners we're recording this before England play Argentina in the football world cup semi-final but we're putting it out afterwards so we can't talk about the football we don't know what's going to happen but exactly tell me it's been an emotional week between the two teams because that's such a huge game regardless of the result for the rugby team what does it mean for an argentinian to play against england what what does that bring out in argentinian rugby players to be honest like rugby wise historically you have the three teams from the south and then it's england you know it's the only world champion from the north and it's a team that it's been a trademark for quality rugby you know i mean a lot of our guys had the chance or are having the chance to play there and it's where right we started.

32:24So when you want to be the best, you have to compete against the best and try to beat the best. So it's a great occasion. It's the next step on the process this team is going through. And as you said, for the two nations, it's always a very special game. Yeah. Do you feel like it's slightly less intense than the football rivalry? Because for football, it's the national sport of both countries, isn't it? and there's incredible amounts of history and huge games between the two, but maybe the rugby play each other more often and it's slightly less passionate perhaps on both sides, I don't know. Yeah, first of all, I think football brings a lot more passion.

33:09You could be watching an under-11 game of football in the middle of the park and you will see a lot of passion, especially in Argentina, no matter which corner of the country you are in. so there's a lot of passion around football there's a lot of passion around a world cup especially for me there's a lot of passion when Messi is playing for what what he's been doing for the last I don't know 30 20 years 20 years yeah no yeah 20 years he's a machine in a way he's a great role model so so yeah it's it's gonna be special but and as but as you said you can never compare the the amount of let's say outside noise that you get in a rugby match that you get in a football match of Argentina against England.

33:53Yeah. And I guess, as you said, a lot of your players have played in England and have lots of English friends. Like you spent a long time at Sale and you will have played with English guys at Toulon. But like every rival, do you put all your friendships aside for the 80 minutes when you pull on the white and blue jersey of Argentina? Yeah. And I think I read it after last week, one of the Scottish prop, you know, he's South African and he was telling about that. It's like, of course, once it started, I remember playing against Wiggy, Richard Wigglesworth. Yes. It's even a little bit more fun to try to smash him, you know, in a way.

34:34And he was trying to do the same thing. And I think it's just, at the end of the game, it's a lovely sport. It's a contact sport. So there's going to be a lot of contact around it, but it's just a game. it's good to put it aside try to smash him as much as possible and then keep the friendship because those type of connections are the type of connections that last forever yeah so talking about smashing each other and your area of expertise the back row um that looks like as usual it's going to be a hell of a battle on saturday we let's see who's in each of the teams but i'd love to ask you about two of the english players and you can tell me more about the Argentinians but Tom Curry to start with there was a bit of a blow up at the end of the last game with Juan Cruz Malia like is everyone okay with Tom Curry at the moment how do we feel about Tom?

35:25Of course as you said international footy there's a lot of intensity a lot of emotions around and you know I think it happened it was dealt with and it's done and we know what type of intensity he's going to bring on on saturday he's going to be very very tough player to play against if he's if he's started or if he's coming from the bench because that's the way he's been playing since he started playing rugby from what i saw from sale and england and england in the 20s so yeah it's it's going to be a tough battle but we just need to try to focus on what what we can control and it's the way we execute our things i believe yeah and he made his debut in argentina in 2017.

36:10So he has a long history against the Pumas, yeah. Exactly, it has. And the other guy that everywhere we go around the world, including at home, everyone's kind of obsessed with... I think I know what you're going to ask about. Go on, who is it? I reckon he will be the number eight that comes from the bench and scored a hat-trick last week. Yeah, Henry Pollock. Did the Argentin... Because when we go to France, people boo him and he loves it. When we go to South Africa, they don't like him either. when he plays for Northampton, for other English teams, the rivals. He's one of those players that you probably would love to have him on your side, but when he's on the opposition, he's quite annoying.

36:49What do you guys make of Henry Pollock and how much respect do you have as a former back row and as a man who has so much expertise in that area? To be honest, thinking of me as a player is not the way I will behave on a pitch in a way. they're regarding that noise in a way but man if he keeps delivering that's that's it the only thing he needs to to do or to be in a team is help the team and i believe he's helping the team and that's why he's playing then each one it's a different individual and each one can behave the way they want to behave sometimes people behave in a way or i will have i will behave in a different way but the most important thing is the team and if you deliver for the team the coach will probably pick you yeah that's that's the thing for me it's it's a game when you deliver for your team that's it and what about the rugby stuff that he does because there's there's a lot of sideshow with henry pollock but the rugby quality is obviously there isn't it he's good he's a guy that for a back rower has a lot of speed and speed is an asset that in rugby it's very important so because that allows him to be always close and near to the ball.

38:02He's handy with ball in hand. So it's going to be interesting. We have a really good set of pack rowers. And I think battle always starts, our rugby games are always desired around the contact. You know what I mean? So it's going to be an interesting battle. It's going to be fun to watch. And hopefully all our guys who are well prepared and raring to go can win those little battles on Saturday. Yeah, tell me about, we've watched a lot of your back rows over the years and admired the strength of them all, the power, the physicality, the jackal threat, the pace, the guys you've got on the team at the moment, Crema, Oviedo, Matera, Grandona, there's some huge names in that team.

38:44Matera, to start with, Aquimoro, yeah, exactly, from Leicester. I mean Matera's got 120 something caps now hasn't he he's a giant of Argentine rugby isn't he he's a giant of world rugby I believe yeah because he's a guy that he has been through everything in rugby his body's been through everything and he's always putting a shift for Argentina you just can have respect for those type of players you know what I mean yeah and tell me about how you get the best out of the balance of your back row? Because you've got so many talented players, you use them in different orders sometimes. What are you trying to project with those guys?

39:24We've been seeing it a lot. Honestly, nowadays rugby is a 23-man game. It's so intense. Everyone is so well-prepared physically-wise, skills-wise, that at the end of the day, it's the guys that understand more the game. you know what I mean in those crucial moments so you can always think okay are we going 5-3 are you going 6-2 okay if you go 6-2 are you bringing two back rowers or are you bringing two second rowers and it is a thing of well I think it's you analyze you you know that typical thing of okay what are our strengths what are our threats what are the opportunities what are our weaknesses and you try to always balance it to make it better for you you know what i mean so as you said we have a lot of different combinations yeah so we try to use them in in the best way possible because as you were saying and we can't have him here but in england they know him very well juan gonzalez all those type of back rowers and we try to make them combine the best way possible for the team to be better you know will this is a team sport at the end of the day there's nothing bigger than the team.

40:38So tell me a bit about the last few games against England because from our perspective looking at this side Steve Borswick I think has won every match he's played against Argentina from the World Cup through the next five so what lessons have you guys learned from those games and maybe particularly the last summer when both teams had changed a little bit weren't they when England came and won 2-0 in Argentina? Yeah as you said in that English expression England has our number or had our number for the last few. There's a lot of lessons. That's the beauty of always trying to get better. I won't be telling you all our learnings because probably Steve is going to be preparing well, as he always does with such a good team of coaches that he has.

41:26But we know it's going to be a pressure game. We know it's going to be a contact game. Rugby is always around contact, territory and pressure, you know what I mean? You could have different options, different little tricks up the sleeve, but it's always around the pressure, the territory and the contact, no matter who you play. But good teams like the English team is a really good team, it will be around that. So you think you're expecting them to kick a lot and use the scrum and the maul and physicality, it sounds like that's the way they want to play, you might want to drag them to a different game i reckon you're trying to put your words into my mouth but because that's what you think will that is going to happen well how do you how do you think they'll play because their identity changes a bit but to be honest if you if you analyze six nations if you analyze south africa game and if you realize the the last few years of england it's they do play they do try to play like they did against france in stade de france but first they try to build that platform through pressure through territory and through contact and it's it's something that has worked for them so it's going to be tough it's going to be tough around those areas and if the game open ups they have the tool to try to attack it there we do have it also so it's going to be a hell of a battle definitely hell of a battle and it will be playing awesome spirit and just we'll try to be on the good side of the ball and and if the game goes well for you it goes the way you want it to you don't have to give me all your secrets as we were saying but what what do you want it to look like how do you want to project yourselves to your fans and for to people in the ground and on tv watching you on saturday if you're okay i will turn it around and say will you've been watching argentina for a while i imagine preparing for this game what do you expect that it will come from argentina i mean watching some of the way you guys played against Wales particularly I just love the way you move the ball you've got those guys I mean Oviedo had a great game didn't he and we watched guys like Santi Carreras who's such an amazing footballer for Bath and then Gloucester before that seems like you have pace out wide Matthe Carreras obviously has played at Newcastle hasn't he like there's some serious pace and playmaking ability but always with Argentina it seems that it starts like with England I suppose with the scrum.

43:49Traditional powers of both teams. There's a nice phrase from rugby, Felipe uses a lot, you have to earn the right to go wide. You know what I mean? As you said, we are a team that we pride or pride ourselves. You pride yourselves, yeah. We pride ourselves on intensity, on movement, because as I think it's quite clear, we're not the biggest in world rugby. You know what I mean? We don't have those natural genes of being the most powerful or biggest guys but we proud ourselves of being super fit on moving around on looking for the spaces attacking hard into space but to do all that things you have to earn the right through the contact it's going to be around that thing but we're going to try to yeah play with intensity and play with with a lot of positive intention yeah yeah last couple um What were your favourite memories of playing against England yourself?

44:51Because you won 70-something caps, didn't you? A few World Cups. 71. 71, there you go. Those numbers you never forget. Absolutely, yeah. If I had won 71 caps for anyone, I'd remember, definitely. So what were your favourite? Yeah, I played. I mean, not to... I can't possibly say that I played a good level in front of you, but at school, university, yeah. Mate, it's rugby. It's still rugby, yeah. Yeah, it's still rugby. So your games against England, what are the standout ones that still live with you? Your favourite days against English? Definitely comes the one in 2006. Yeah. Because it was my first in Twickenham.

45:31What a place. And we end up winning. I think, if I'm not wrong, it was the first time we won in Twickenham. So it's such a great memory. And that will be the standout, you know, in my head. 25-18. November 2006 yeah on the other side of the of the pitch example being a coach when I think it was a great great try from Emi Boffelli an intercepted try from Santi Carreras 2022 I think we beat them we beat them there in November another good memory and to be honest it didn't end up well like on the scoreship but we always try to judge ourselves on have we done what we planned and decided to do. And the last November game, to be honest, it was a really good game of rugby for this group.

46:25The way the guys responded, the way the guys played that last action, and they brought the ball all the way from our trial line, and we end up with a penalty with a line-out five metres to England trial line, you know? So the way the guys responded, you couldn't feel prouder of the team in a way, you know what I mean? Yeah. You can always judge yourself for the results. It's important to always analyze how you behave. Yeah, yeah. You've reminded me of one thing. The common theme between the two matches that you've picked out, 2006 November, 2022 November, was at the end of that series, the England coach got sacked.

47:09Andy Robinson, 2006, lost his job that November, and then Eddie Jones, 2022. so didn't know that one didn't know that one there you go yeah there you go well pressure's on I think for English team at the moment but that's a different story but it has to be in Twigganham so yeah that's true yes it's okay it's away in Argentina do you think that the English team will get a good hostile atmosphere as we said at the start it's not going to be quite the same I wouldn't put the word hostile I will definitely put the word loud you know what I mean loud we Argentinian we are loud we don't mind telling everyone that we are loud and we don't mind showing that we are loud because for us first Argentina is it's well ingrained in our hearts in a way but team sports for us are very are very very big you know yeah because yes you have those professionals but team sports in Argentina are everywhere you could go into the middle of the country and there will be a club a rugby club a little club maybe they have just 10 players of their ages you go to the south of Argentina where winter is horrible and the guys will be there playing and I've been there watching and it's like this is just the love you have for rugby so I think that passion makes us loud respectfully loud Well look, let's hope it's a great atmosphere and a great game on Saturday Juan, thanks so much for your time and good luck we've got our coats on in Buenos Aires but maybe we leave them here for when we come up to see you in Santiago del Estero.

48:44Yeah, definitely. We'll see you around on Saturday. OK, Alex, we've done plenty on Argentina, plenty on England. Very quick rattle around the houses for the others. Or let me read you the pictures and just you tell me what you're most excited to try and find on your telly early in the morning. New Zealand, Ireland, Japan, France, Australia, Italy, Fiji, Scotland, South Africa, Wales are the other games. There's only one winner there, isn't there? for Eden Park someone's oh has got to go are they going to do it could be like 4am kick off for us I think something like that yeah well if it's yeah something like that it's going to be an early one but worth it I think really worth it I think I'm excited by what we're seeing from that New Zealand team already it's so interesting you talk about the impact of coaches like sometimes you wonder why is a coach so important when you look at how that all black team is carrying itself now compared to how they were carrying themselves under Scott Robertson.

49:43Scott Robertson, who's like live wire, like surfer, skittish, hammering the coaching box in frustration. And they sort of played a little bit like that. Didn't really look like themselves. And now you've got Dave Rennie, who's like completely the opposite character. But there's a sort of an assuredness about New Zealand. Only two tests in already. Yeah, yeah. So early days, but the early days of Scott Robertson, when we were down in New Zealand, you're like, whoa, this is a New Zealand team there for the taking, and England couldn't do it. So, yeah, I'm really interested to see this evolution of the All Blacks under Dave Rennie and Ireland.

50:24They've won in New Zealand in recent memory, a hugely important series, that for Andy Farrell and those boys in the build-up to that 23 World Cup. It was uncharted territory for them. This could be a humdinger. I'm looking forward to this. I also love the way that Andy Ferrell just, he knows how to pitch these games. It's like, we've got to play the game of our lives, by the way. It's just like, yes, that's exactly it. He gets the... And you can see, like, all these players, we talked about it with Jamie George earlier, like, you can get motivated by being on the beach next week after this, but, man, like, all those Ireland boys have been like, we could break the unbreakable record and then go on the smash for a few days and just sit on a beach and just wallow in the fact that we're the team.

51:11We are the team that won at Eden Park. Versus 94. Ridiculous. I said to Jamie, it's long season, lots of travel, all those things we know. But can it actually be an energising thing to go into your last game? It's just all in on this. You've given everything for the whole season. This is one last effort. It can actually be quite a galvanising thing. Stick yourself in a nice bath with a couple of beers. I do worry from an England perspective that they could just not have enough they do seem a bit weary maybe we're all a bit whacked by the four hour time difference but it's felt slightly more soporific and a bit more low key I do worry if they've got enough left in the tank against an Argentina team who will be fizzing off to Wednesday night and all of that Argentina play a 12 month season and they're always up against it but I wonder if England can have enough in the tank but as Jamie said there is a last you know last day of term sort of feel about it everyone's everyone's buzzing for it just don't put your feet up and bring in the big telly yeah yeah or put put a stink bomb in your teacher's pocket like my friend did and I'm getting suspended on the last day well look we're going to have to find New Zealand Island somewhere because we're off to Santiago del Estero and as Juan Martin said earlier it's going to be hot and heavy up there it's sort of quite wintry down here in Buenos Aires but we're going towards the Bolivian border and it's Hot Springs, Rio Hondo you know well about Rio Hondo which we can leave there it's an inside joke it's going to be 31 degrees up there so it's going to be a very different atmosphere new stadium, it's going to be cool it's going to be one of the weirdest places we've probably watched them play rugby a weird place for a game, like a gleaming new stadium in a town with three hotels in the middle of nowhere Very odd, but anyway, it's going to be a fun experience.

53:05And we'll be back with you after the game. Yeah, so again, doing our admin live, but because of legging it back to Buenos Aires on flights and airlines that have gone bust and cancelled our flights, we're now heading back to Buenos Aires on Saturday night after the game. So all you need to know is to expect a pod dropping on Sunday, not Saturday night. Sunday morning pod, yeah. But you'll get it when you get it, and you'll love it, hopefully. and who knows what we're going to be talking about we might be talking about a great england win finishing off their season we might be talking about the eden park record going we might be talking about more football who knows we've quite enjoyed being football correspondents out here haven't we i've been doing videos and all sorts but for now that has been the rugby and this has been the ruck from the times and the sunday times we're off to santiago del estero email us the ruck at the times.co.uk if you've got any thoughts we'll be back on sunday as we mentioned, and there'll be a sort of final wash up of the whole nation's championship with Alfie and the crew on Monday.

54:06See you soon.

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