Can the Red Roses finally win the world cup?

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1:32Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. The Lions tour well and truly in the rearview mirror. We are back on English shores and back in time for the start of the Women's Rugby World Cup that gets underway on Friday. I'm Alfie Reynolds. No Will Kelleher or Alex Lowe. Well-earned rest for those two post-Lions tour. But Elgin Alderman is sat alongside me, Elgin, the week of the Women's World Cup. It's all hurtling along quite nicely.

1:59Elgan Alderman: Very much so. It's set to be already a record-breaking tournament based off ticket sales already. Still, obviously, six weeks to go until that final when organisers will be hoping they'll get up to that potential Twickenham sellout, which really would be something we're looking at more than 40 ,000 already at that opening game, which will match, possibly surpass how many turned up at the most recent final in Eden Park, which was at the time a world record for a women's rugby game. So already it's set to be just a record tournament on scale and competition and hopefully it materialises in that way.

2:31We're going to come on to chat about the Rugby Championship later on in the podcast as well because unbelievable result for the Wallabies at Ellis Park against South Africa at the weekend. But the Women's World Cup will be our focus to start with. And Elgin, I want to start with the big question really. It's the question that we've been asking of the Red Roses since the last World Cup final. It was the question we were asking of them before that World Cup final that they lost so narrowly to New Zealand. It is the question that haunts this team and has done since 2014. Can the Red Roses finally win it?

3:02Elgan Alderman: Again, like last time, they are the favourites. Some would say the overwhelming favourites. The unavoidable statistic is that they have won 57 of their past 58 tests. And that one defeat was that World Cup final at Eden Park against the Black Ferns. In between World Cups, they easily beat New Zealand. They've had some close matches against France and Canada. So when people say, oh, they've never been tested, they do have these occasional tests and they do always come through them. The difficulty is the last plaster to rip off for this Red Roses team is to beat the Black Ferns at a World Cup because this is now the 10th Women's Rugby World Cup and it is always New Zealand that spoil England's party.

3:42Elgan Alderman: They've beaten them in five finals, five of the past seven finals. The one that England won was against Canada because someone else did for New Zealand prior to that. So it's the one final boss that the Red Roses need to see off to become world champions and to do it on home soil at Twickenham. And as you say, they are the overwhelming favourites. And when you lay out that record and how dominant they've been, yes, there have been close games. France won point in the most recent Six Nations, wasn't it? But England win. They always win apart from the World Cup final. So they're the heavy favourites.

4:14how much of this World Cup as well on home soil? You've mentioned the ticket sale. Sounds like it's going to be a brilliant crowd up there in Sunderland for the opener on Friday. The final, is the final definitely sold out? Are we still to...

4:26Elgan Alderman: Still tickets to go. So not a confirmation yet on sale, but everyone's expecting that over time it should get there. That's the hope. So you would imagine by the time we get to the final and momentum building throughout the competition, presuming England get there, I know they've still got plenty of games to play before that, but they are such heavy favourites. So sell out there. It's going to be this great occasion. Are the Red Roses, is this being looked at as the Lionesses moment? What that home Euros was for the England women's football team? Again, it's an unavoidable term and it's a term that the Red Roses players often use themselves.

4:55Elgan Alderman: I've spoken to a few of them in recent weeks and they can't help but be inspired by what they've seen. Not only a group of women wearing an England jersey winning a major tournament, but also the reaction that has come from that, the celebrations that came from that, the thousands of people that turned out to watch them. Now, the Red Roses are a phenomenal sporting team in and of itself, but it's winning that big final that makes a big difference in how you are perceived and the events that come thereafter. It's only after winning a major tournament that you get a branch of the London Overground named after you, that you get honours, that you get on a few more TV shows, that you get a bigger profile.

5:37Elgan Alderman: So it won't change them in terms of their individual abilities and how phenomenal a sports team they are, but how they will be perceived, what will follow, what riches and fame and just profile in a growing sport around the UK. It will make a difference in that regard. And I know the Lionesses have spoken about that in the years since that Euros win and they backed it up this summer as well, of course. It's harder for them these days to go out and just have a coffee. They get recognised a hell of a lot more than they once did. And that is a journey that in terms of rugby and the England women's team will be hoping to go on as well.

6:10To play devil's advocate slightly, and I don't mean to be too negative. You touched on this actually already in that answer. But is there any danger that this presuming England do win? It can't be that kind of Lionesses moment because England are so dominant, which is no fault of their own. They can only beat what is in front of them. But the Lionesses wasn't an easy run to the final. Then quite a gripping final that was close and they had to really dig deep to win it. If England were to romp this Rugby World Cup, does that take away from the potential of that Lionesses moment? Or actually, does that not really matter?

6:42Elgan Alderman: I don't think so. I think what will temper it slightly is just the case that football is football and rugby is rugby. They land differently in the UK. Which is an important distinction as well. They do land differently. I cannot see a situation where 15, 20 million people would be watching a Rugby World Cup final. But you can certainly, with all these matches live on BBC One, seeing figures very much in the millions and the high millions. And who knows, maybe it will surprise me, but we do have to temper that it won't be quite the same just because of how ubiquitous football is as a sport in this country.

7:15Elgan Alderman: But undoubtedly, with the opportunity the Red Roses have to play matches all over England and obviously other teams as well, but also the enhanced focus on social media and women's rugby does have a slightly more, perhaps not forward thinking but because it isn't bound by the baggage of you know centuries of of men's rugby it is slightly more savvy in terms of how it tries to target new audiences through social media and we will hopefully see that growth perhaps in audiences that aren't men's rugby's natural constituency. They've got an influencer in each camp have I seen this? Content creators within each camp I believe yes well whatever term we'd like to use but I think That's the term I've been using anyway.

7:58Elgan Alderman: And the players themselves are very savvy in that regard. We can't escape Alona Ma, and I'm sure we'll come on to her. She is the world's most followed rugby player, male or female. And then in the Red Roses camp, you've got people like Sarah Byrne, Maud Muir, who are very active in this regard as well. So it's something that rugby's traditional constituency may not see, but people out there that follow rugby in a very different way will notice that, I'm sure. The World Cup itself, if we look at it a bit more generally before focusing in on the Red Roses, I think it's going to be a brilliant tournament.

8:31In particular, I think once we get to those knockout rounds and hopefully the Red Roses are inching towards a famous victory and winning the whole thing. And I think the momentum will build, the hype will build. Could it be a tournament that's a bit of a slow burn to start with? Or is that actually not the case at all? Maybe if you're looking at it through a kind of totally Red Roses perspective, that's the case. But actually elsewhere, there are storylines and bits of interest all over the place.

8:53Elgan Alderman: I'd expect it to start with a bang and then simmer along for a bit and then really kick up again during, I think the semifinals realistically is when it could explode. Because it was the semifinals three years ago in Eden Park, which were two just phenomenal rugby matches. We had England beating Canada 26-19. We had France, Caroline Drouin missing a late penalty to knock out the Black Ferns, which meant that New Zealand won 25-24. Of course, if they weren't in that final, then it would have been a very different story for England, perhaps at Eden Park. It would be a huge surprise if the semifinals are anything other than England v France and New Zealand v Canada.

9:30Elgan Alderman: Even if just it ends up being slightly different matchups in those semifinals, that would be a surprise because those big four are removed from the rest of world rugby. So if anything changes, then we will have seen some quite remarkable surprises until we get to that stage. Yeah, possibly Ireland having something to say about that, which we'll come on to because they're in the same group as New Zealand. As for the Red Roses, how have they looked in their warmups? I mean, 97-7 against Spain, 40 points to six away in France. Dominant, as you would expect, in terms of how they built into the tournament?

10:02Elgan Alderman: The Spain game was always expected to be a one-sided shellacking. If anything, the surprise was that Spain actually got seven, because until that stage, it really didn't look like they were going to trouble the scorers at all. So that was nice to see, at least from people that wanted to see Spain do well. That 46 result is the big one, because that was out in France. Yes, it's World Cup friendly and France are the type of team that when they're playing at Twickenham, they seem to play a bit better than when they play perhaps in Mont-de-Marsin or somewhere like that. But that was a real statement win, really hammering home the difference between how unstoppable in between the World Cups the Red Roses have been, whereas France are a bit more fluctuating and don't always have their best when they're on the field.

10:44And in terms of the pool, USA, Samoa and Australia for the Red Roses, any of those sides going to cause them problems?

10:52Elgan Alderman: Certainly they're not expected to. And I think similar to the Six Nations games that the Red Roses play before they play France, I think it would be a surprise if they're within, you know, 30, 40 points. I think those are realistically the sort of margins we're looking at. the main area that we're looking at for sort of surprise in this group is that USA-Australia matchup where they are the rivals for second place to go through in that pool. Australia are expected to be the ones of those two that make it through however in their most recent match it ended 27-19 so it was a close one. In terms of the Red Roses then, selection questions, how much does John Mitchell do you think know what his ideal starting team would be for a World Cup final or are there still is it Marley Packer in the back row or what they do in the centres what are the big questions you think facing him I think actually it's pretty straightforward you've got a lot of positions where whether it's the backup or the nominal first choice there's still very good outcomes you look at tight head prop for a prime example of that where you've got Sarah Byrne and Maude Muir and there just isn't really a drop-off in any regard in terms of the the veterans who are perhaps playing their last World Cup.

12:04Elgan Alderman: Emily Scarrett's coming into her fifth. Marley Packer coming into her fourth. Neither of them are expected to feature amongst the first choice 15. But of course, these are World Cups and injuries happen. We've seen Marley Packer's already had to deal with a one-match ban for a sending off against Spain. So things like that could happen. There are a few players that are recovering from injuries. So Claudia Maloney-McDonald, who would probably be the first choice wing. She hasn't featured yet in the warm-ups because she's just recovering from a slight injury. So there will be a few instances like that where you're just waiting for players to come back.

12:37Elgan Alderman: All players will sadly be ruled out. But I think by and large that first choice 15, assuming there aren't any surprise absences, could probably be named right now. Interesting for the Red Roses. We'll maybe circle back to them in just a moment. I want to rattle through the other pools. So I mentioned England in a pool with USA, Samoa and Australia. Pool B, Canada, Scotland, Wales and Fiji. as you've said already Elgin, Canada one of England's big rivals. Would you view it as them and Scotland most likely heading through in Pool B? Certainly Canada. They've been ranked around number two in the world for quite a long time.

13:11Elgan Alderman: In between these World Cups they have really been the best other than the Red Roses. They've drawn against the Black Ferns but they've also won in New Zealand in between these World Cups. What's astonishing about Canada is that they are mostly amateur and they are trying to raise, they've been trying to raise funds to support the programme of late. I think the target's about$1 million they've been aiming for and I believe they're quite close to raising that. So it's really remarkable how well the Canada team perform when you compare with what they're up against in terms of the Red Roses. That WXV game they played, Canada were leading 12-7 into the final quarter and it was one of the few times where the Red Roses have actually been in danger of losing.

13:50So do you think they are England's closest rivals? To jump ahead to a question I was going to ask later, obviously New Zealand are kind of the bogey team that's the banana skin that they always seem to slip up on but actually based upon form and what we've seen in between world cups are Canada best place you think to upset England

14:05Elgan Alderman: I think if it weren't a world cup it would be Canada but I think just the way that the Black Ferns tend to cram for finals so well I think they probably usurp Canada ever so slightly but Canada would be no lower than third I think in that regard in terms of the second team in Pooleby again Wales and Scotland they were thrown a great matchup absolutely that first weekend in Salford is basically deciding which of them will go through and which of them will face England in the quarterfinal so there's a lot riding on that opening Saturday in Salford it's very close between these teams they they're two teams that sometimes you know they just fluctuate their level of performance regularly they've both had off-field trouble in terms of negotiating contracts so they've both gone through periods of great uncertainty off the field which is understandably affecting their performances on the field but we saw them at the last World Cup in New Zealand where Kira Bevan kicked a late kick for Wales to win that game the most recent Six Nations game there was only there were only three points in it Scotland came out on top that time so that is a that is a game where either team really could win it so that is one to note in your diaries for that opening Saturday.

15:15And we saw Sean Lynn take charge of Wales for the Six Nations but he didn't have really any preparation time with them because he was finishing up with Gloucester-Hartbury. What impact does that have? Do you think that we're going to see a much improved Wales team just because of the fact Sean Lynn is going to have had way more time to actually prepare them?

15:33Elgan Alderman: Well they absolutely should be and the time for just waiting for a better day that hasn't yet come has to end at some stage because we've had one or two false dawns with the Wales team where where they finished third in the Six Nations one season, but now they've gone back to being wooden spoon contenders, and indeed recipients, not just contenders. Sean Lane, who comes with such a good CV from Gloucester-Hartbury, he absolutely must have turned them around. And we have seen them already win in Australia during that quite strange tour where they went out to Australia despite being in Wales for a World Cup that's in England, which was a bit of a strange legacy thing that everyone says, well, it was organised before I took this job.

16:13Elgan Alderman: so that's what people kept on saying. Anyway, they went out to Australia, they won the first test which was a historic win, then they lost the second one 36-5. So again we've seen how that performance can fluctuate but there has to be improvement from Wales at this World Cup. So that's Paul B, Canada most likely going through top of the group you would imagine and then it's a fight between Scotland and Wales for who comes second, Fiji also there. Paul C, New Zealand, Ireland, Japan and Spain. Such an intriguing question, Elgin, for who finishes top here between New Zealand and Ireland. Again, there's terrific history between Ireland and New Zealand because, as I alluded to earlier, in 2014, when someone did for the Black Ferns instead of the Red Roses, it was Ireland who beat them 19-17.

16:57Elgan Alderman: And then a later result between England and Canada, which ended in a draw, meant that New Zealand didn't make it to the semifinals because of the way the rankings worked. So England never had to beat New Zealand at the 2014 World Cup, which of course doesn't take away the fact that they're world champions that year but it just adds another layer to this theory of the the red the red roses having this this black ferns hoodoo and if Ireland were to beat New Zealand in the pool stage it would push New Zealand onto England's side of the draw if other results go the way we're expecting and the way that the start of these tournaments you start trying to kind of predict exactly how things are going to work out and where teams are going to end up in terms of the knockout stage if so if everything else goes to plan but Ireland win in this pool and it pushes New Zealand onto England's side of the draw I think that is so fascinating what do you think the Red Roses would honestly prefer to face New Zealand in a final with all the pressure of hopefully a sellout at Twickenham or to face them earlier in the knockout stage I think the Red Roses themselves probably and certainly wouldn't publicly admit to to a preference either way but I think what the tournament would love just in total would be for for it to be Red Roses versus Black Ferns in the final at Twickenham.

18:12Elgan Alderman: I think possibly for Red Roses, they obviously have a phenomenal chance of beating them anyway because they tend to beat everyone, but I think even more so in a semi-final than a final. But on that occasion, I think there would be even greater jeopardy because New Zealand would be going out there just thinking, this is what we do. We beat England in World Cup finals. And even though this is a very different team to the teams of 1998, 2002, 2006, that will just fuel them even more on that occasion. But that's why it would be a great occasion for the neutral and everyone else watching in a final.

18:43Yeah, I just wonder psychologically, and as you say, they'll never admit it, whether they would prefer to face them in a semi-final than a final because of the whole narrative around that final, the pressure of the final, the eyeballs that will be on it. Spoken already about the potential that this thing kind of bubbles away and then just peaks and shoots up in terms of attention and coverage towards the end of it. they won't admit it but I do think maybe from a Red Roses point of view they would quite like to

19:07Elgan Alderman: see New Zealand end up on their side of the draw certainly facing them at Ashton Gate in front of 20 odd thousand people would be very different to facing them at Twickenham in front of potentially 80 ,000 people with a World Cup on the line yeah really fascinating finish it off for us Elgin Paul D France Italy South Africa and Brazil where are France heading into this so often they have been spoken about as the nearest rivals to England in the six nations which they have been but equally the gap between the two teams seems like it's been widening although as I say that I'm reminded of the one point game they played out in the Six Nations so maybe that's absolute nonsense but it does feel like to me that England really have France's number.

19:44Elgan Alderman: They do and they have done for about six or seven years now there have been close games but the two grand slam deciders at Twickenham in the final analysis were 38-33, 43-42 so that tells a story that France are able to stay much closer to the Red Roses than the other Six Nations teams. However, in both instances, it was late France rallies that got them into that position, but they weren't ever realistically close to winning. I mean, they scored that try to make it one point in the most recent decider and then proceeded to fumble the kickoff. So had they caught it, who knows, maybe they'd gone 90 meters and scored, but they never really got that close to being ahead and losing it.

20:27Elgan Alderman: At the last World Cup they played each other in a pool game again it was very close it was only 13-7 so the games are often close but France really struggled to find a way to get ahead of the game early rather than have these thrilling late rallies which which make the scoreline look fabulous. So do we think then that there are going to be closer games for the Red Roses in this World Cup than we necessarily have seen in between World Cups because and you've referenced back to a couple of times already of games at previous World Cups and it's quite close that the Red Roses have to fight to get through or have what we've seen over the last few years in between World Cups is that the gap between the Red Roses and everyone else has increased so therefore actually that's also what we're going to see in this World Cup.

21:09Elgan Alderman: I think based off the first four matches we'd be looking at and again we are making a lot of assumptions but they are so dominant that I think it's right to make these assumptions that USA Samoa and Australia it would be a surprise if any of them were within 30 or 40 points say I think a quarterfinal against Wales or Scotland would be the same story again then you're looking at those those semifinals where it really does ramp up so unless a lot of these teams really are fueled by the power of the World Cup and have improved in recent months history precedent would suggest that we are looking at those sort of margins until the semifinals yeah and history and precedent also said that the Wallabies wouldn't go to Ellis Park on the weekend.

21:52Elgan Alderman: Well, absolutely. And win for the first time in 60 years. 60-odd years of precedent. Which we are coming on to in just a second. To finish us off on the Women's World Cup, stars of the tournament, Alona Marr is always going to be one that I think we're drawn to. She'll be a star of the tournament, not necessarily because of how she performs on the field. Like I say, if it goes towards how the rankings are, the USA won't reach the quarterfinals. They will, of course, hope to beat Australia and make it that far. But as it stands, A player who has only recently come back to 15s, playing for a country that isn't necessarily expected to reach the knockouts, is the biggest name online in men's and women's rugby.

22:33Elgan Alderman: She leveraged what happened at the Olympics to turn an already very high profile social media presence into comfortably the biggest in the sport. And she's been all over American TV and award ceremonies talking about rugby, which is obviously great for the great for the game at large. She is a real force for good in the way that she is able to talk about rugby to, again, parts of rugby's natural constituency and North America, which every sport wants to try and tap into. And actually in women's rugby with how USA and Canada are players in that regard, it is an aspect of the game where North America can experience that growth.

23:14Elgan Alderman: So she will be for those people who follow on rugby on women's rugby on Instagram and TikTok. They won't be able to everywhere they look. There'll be a Lowe and a Mar and other people for people who don't look at that. They'll wonder what this is all about. But she is, and I cannot stress this enough, a huge personality online for rugby. What about any other names? I was thinking of Aoife Wafer, for example, for Ireland, who's injury dependent at the moment, but so key for them in the Six Nations. And if we look at that pool again and how Ireland are going to go, you'd imagine her performance and her availability is going to be pretty essential.

23:53Elgan Alderman: Yeah, absolutely. Looking again at that pool, I think someone who is we've seen her in direct competition with Alona Mar. And this is someone whose whose record is entirely on the field is the return of Portia Woodman Wycliffe for New Zealand. She scored 48 tries in 28 tests for the Black Ferns. We thought she had retired from 15s before this World Cup, but she decided to come back. Portia was the winger who was knocked out in that collision in the World Cup final three years ago that led to Lydia Thompson's red card, on which perhaps the final turned because England were 14-0 up at the time. So Portia was deprived of that final.

24:32Elgan Alderman: She's come back. She scored seven tries in the 79-14 win over USA, a match which did feature Ilona Ma in the backline. So I think we can expect to see Borsha Woodman-Wickliffe adding to her already record tally of World Cup tries across men's or women's game. All right, well, final question then, Elgin. Are England going to do it? If they don't, it will be a sporting failure, but they really should. They've got everything going for them. They've got very personable characters at a home World Cup with so many eyeballs on it. They really should do it. And I think they will. Fingers crossed. We will leave the Women's World Cup stuff there.

25:15Elgin, in fact, is going to be getting a train in a couple of hours from when we're recording this on Monday to head up to Durham and be covering the Red Roses all throughout the week. And we'll be bringing to you a lot more chat and covering all of the England games over the next weeks and months on the podcast. Up next, we'll finish off by looking back at the Rugby Championship. What an opening weekend.

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27:29So South Africa 22, Australia 38, the Wallabies' first win against South Africa in South Africa since 2011, Elgin. Their first win at Ellis Park in over 60 years, a match that they were 22-0 down in after 17 minutes. What an unbelievable result and performance in that second half by the Wallabies.

27:52Elgan Alderman: It's a myth-busting win for so many ways. people who had been following the British and Irish Lions were viewing this match as something of a context after the fact. Exposing the Lions for not being very good. They were thinking, right, if South Africa win this 60-0, then it shows that, yes, if the Lions had gone to South Africa or New Zealand, then they would have been stuffed. And the Wallabies have gone and done the Lions, historically, a massive favour by somehow coming out. And it really was one of the all-time great victories. Like you say, going 22-0 down at Ellis Park, even 22-5 at half time even at that stage I don't think anyone would have thought that the Wallabies would have won that game and then score 33 unanswered points in the second half I mean Razzi Erasmus was absolutely fuming afterwards he said you can lose games from 22-0 but you can't lose them by 16 points it was just an astonishing turnaround and I think a lot of people a lot of people were talking between the 2023 World Cup and the Lions Tour as if the Wallabies were just a complete busted flush which I always thought was going a bit too far because this is Australia who is a very good sporting nation even if rugby union is the third or fourth biggest code of football they will put good athletes out there that can achieve these can achieve good results even so I don't think even the most the most positive eyed people would have thought that they would win 38-22 at Ellis Park no way I mean when they were 20 nil down after 17 minutes I was there thinking oh that's such a shame because off the back of the Lions tour and seeing a Wallabies team that built into that series to the point they win the third test could have easily and will feel they should have won the second test can they back it up that's always been the question with Australia I think for the last few years we've seen in isolation good performances and good results but could they actually put something together and when they were 20-0 down like all of us I was thinking well this game is absolutely done and dusted South Africa are going to run away with it it could be a pretty heavy score line so the fact that they were able to come back into it the way in which they're able to come back into it and in the end win the game comfortably because even when Australia did take the lead in the second half and you're thinking blimey what's going on here I still thought the Springboks would win I still thought South Africa would be able to find something that it would jolt them into action to be able to to still see out the game particularly because they're at home but what does this do then do you think for the Wallabies belief like this is the sort of result that it's such a statement result it's such a marker in a sand a kind of timeline a point in the timeline of a team that you will look back on and say that was that was a really significant result absolutely it can only be a positive thing in terms of yeah it it was a historic result the belief that will give them is remarkable what's interesting about the way that the rugby championship works is that it meet australia are playing in south africa again this weekend because the way they do these double headers where you play in one country and what we do often see happen is a team will perform historically with a victory one weekend and then that will have been their final to use the cliche and that they can't back up the following week we've seen Argentina beat New Zealand and then lose massively the following weekend we've seen Argentina fail to beat Australia and then beat them by 40 the following weekend so it the the reaction the following weekend by both teams will be interesting to see because again it's possible that the Wallabies will just be stuffed next weekend again but equally if they somehow win another historic victory then what a start to the rugby championship that is suddenly you're not thinking about wooden spoon suddenly they're two from two having one in South Africa yeah possibly losing Harry Wilson as well depending on what the situation is with his knee injury but I absolutely think you see a response from South Africa today you mentioned Razzy Rasmus's comments afterwards it's not broadcastable on the podcast for exactly how he described their performance but he wasn't particularly impressed and you can imagine the post game this week in training he is putting an absolute rocket underneath them and there has to be a springbok response for the pride that that team has in kind of what they are and representing the country and all the things that they've achieved to give up that lead at home I think you will definitely see a springbok response yes canine excrement was the wording he used the other thing that adds to the intrigue around this this result is that perhaps on you know the extreme fringes of rugby opinion there are a lot of people that have that do like for the spring box to have they've turned into sort of international rugby's bogeyman for a lot of people because they are the two times world champion because of the tactical innovations that that Rassi Erasmus brings in and they were still doing line outs in in the middle of the field even when they were losing and they did gain yards from it so you know that In terms of a one-off tactic, it did work in that instance.

32:36Elgan Alderman: But there are some people that think they've almost got too clever, too big for their own boots. So in that regard, people were looking at that and thinking, ha-ha, the biggest team in international rugby have got their comeuppance at last. But I think partly that some of that denigrates just what an exciting team the Springboks have been in recent years, where they haven't just been these big trucking up merchants. They do also have some very exciting backs out wide. So they have many tools in which they can respond very strong to the Wallabies. How concerned do you think South Africa should be?

33:07Because on the one hand, I look at this team and they are the double world champions. They're the defending champions in the rugby championship. They have been the number one team in the world, although New Zealand have now replaced them. They had a home Lions series victory in between the last two World Cups. Admittedly, that was a pretty toxic and terrible series in terms of the rugby, but they won it. My point is this is a team that have achieved everything really that has been asked of them. So why would we overreact to one result? But then the flip side of that is Ellis Park, 60 years, 22-0 up after 17 minutes and ending up losing the game comfortably.

33:42Elgan Alderman: It might be certainly a cup of cold water in the face that maybe they thought they were coasting along nicely in a certain direction. And now they're not. Razzy Rasmus said after the game that he'd picked the team really for the second Australia match. and now he was probably going to have to change it because they simply were not expecting to lose, let alone to lose by 16 points in that match. I think the thing you do have to remember about the Springboks is that they have history for turning things around 18 months out for a World Cup. So we're still not yet at that late phase, but certainly they will now maybe have to change course from the journey they thought they were going on on this lovely rise up to the next World Cup.

34:21Yeah, and what it does do now is I think, well New Zealand actually I believe the bookies had them as the favourites before the start of the rugby championship I think they will definitely now be the favourites because they beat Argentina in Argentina 41-24 in New Zealand's hands now Elgin there it's funny with New Zealand isn't it there's such a perception of it's not the New Zealand teams of old which it isn't although that was a team that basically never lost apart from at World Cups Red Rose's link there they were the most dominant team in sport virtually across any sport in the world so they're not that team so we don't view them in the kind of invincible way.

34:54But actually, they're back to being the number one team in the world. They're still clearly such a good side, don't you think?

35:00Elgan Alderman: Yeah, absolutely. And Argentina, I mean, they had a bit of a second half rally. But again, it was one of those ones where the All Blacks were far enough ahead. And then they ended up mauling Argentina over the line in the latter stages of the game to make it quite a convincing win in the end. Again, they'll be in Argentina again. But what comes after that? And I don't think it would be a big surprise if New Zealand are two from two after the Argentina leg. But then you've got New Zealand versus South Africa in New Zealand for back to back matches. And if South Africa are absolutely smarting after at least one, maybe two defeats against the Wallabies, you've got the clash of the two great titans of world rugby.

35:41Elgan Alderman: That's really where we can see where both sides are standing. Well, it's funny because before the start of the Rugby Championship, I think a lot of people were looking at it, myself included, and thinking South Africa, New Zealand, in New Zealand, Eden Park, whatever it is, 50 games, 30 years that the All Blacks haven't lost there. Is this going to be the year? And then off the back of the weekend, all of a sudden, the Wallabies turn up at Ellis Park and beat South Africa. And you're thinking maybe that isn't something that's on for this Springbok team. I still think it's going to be a huge motivation for them to reference back to all of the pieces of history they've ticked off.

36:12I think if they were able to get one over on their biggest rivals, end the run at Eden Park, I think that test match will be absolutely sensational. Argentina are funny, though, aren't they? They never beat New Zealand at home, weirdly. When they beat them, it seems to be away from home.

36:26Elgan Alderman: They are the new, you never know which France are going to turn up. It's the same with Argentina. Their temperament, when they are on, they are unbelievable. and they seem to be powered by some kind of higher being with the way that they passionately fly into teams. Winning in New Zealand, last rugby championship was the first time they'd beaten each of those nations individually. The trouble is, and I alluded to this earlier with the record-breaking win against New Zealand and then suddenly they'll get stuffed the following weekend, is that they aren't quite able to discover that superb best every time they run out on the field and they are still capable of implosions and other defeats like, well, we saw England go without their lines to Argentina and win that series.

37:12Elgan Alderman: So they still can't quite beat an almost second-choice England team and yet they're also capable on occasion of winning in New Zealand. So yes, they're the new great fluctuators of men's international rugby. Totally. I think trying to predict what Argentina are going to do at any given weekend is an absolute fool's errand. Elgin, absolute pleasure. So train for you now. Up to Durham? Train up to Durham. They'll be training. England are starting their week's build-up to Friday in Durham before then shifting over to Sunderland for the Stadium of Light. So I'll be in Durham for a few days, then shifting to Sunderland with them and then a trip down to Salford on Saturday for Wales v Scotland to see how that one goes.

37:50And the Women's World Cup will be up and running. We'll be covering all of it, plus the big talking points from the Rugby Championship over the next few weeks. So I appreciate you listening. If you want to get in touch, the email address is the ruck at the time This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. You know that feeling when too many things fall through the cracks? Monday.com was built for that gap. The AI work platform where people and agents work side by side to deliver more together. Create your first Monday agent today at Monday.com.

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