Clinical England dismantle dismal Wales

0:00Will Kelleher: Katie Prescott here from the Times Tech podcast. Join me for a special sponsored episode featuring Lilia Christoffi, a partner at PwC, talking about agentic AI beyond the hype. She leads the firm's EMEA financial services, data and AI practice. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

0:24Will Kelleher: This episode of The Rock is brought to you by Charles Tyrott, the menswear brand with a simple mission, to help men look and feel great effortlessly. Since launching in 1986, they've become world famous for their signature smart shirts, but they've got your whole wardrobe covered. Whether you need a sharp suit for the boardroom or high quality chinos and polos for the pub this weekend, Tirrett has you sorted for every occasion. They offer an incredible variety of styles and fits, all backed by a no-questions-asked, six-month returns guarantee. Head over to charlestirrett.com or visit one of their stores nationwide to shop the new season collection now.

1:22Will Kelleher: hello welcome back to the ruck the journalists rugby podcast from the times and the sunday times where we are recording this on saturday night in the gloom of twickenham after england's opening match of the 2026 six nations 48 7 they beat wales i'm alfie reynolds alongside me in the gantry here once again is elgin alderman elgin good evening how are you that was a delayed response and i I think the voice of a man who is feeling a little bit dejected. We'll get into that, but also with us is Will Kelleher. Hi. You could have cleared up for us a bit. Rivers of Guinness swilling about our feet up here.

1:59Will Kelleher: You are standing just to the left of where a Guinness dropped right behind me in the position here. And throughout the rest of the game, that was in the first half, it was just slowly seeping towards all my equipment under the desk. So that was my challenges for the day, but it pales in comparison to the challenges of Steve Tandy's men. What a segue that is. I'm actually quite proud of that. Thank you for flagging that. I mean, look, lads, we were together on Thursday and we spoke about the odds being so heavily in England's favour. And yes, we knew they should win. We understood they were the heavy favourites, but thought that maybe it was a little bit too in England's favour.

2:34Will Kelleher: And boy, who wants to kick us off? Because they were absolutely bang on.

2:38Elgan Alderman: The best thing I can say for Wales is that the match felt a lot worse than 48-7, which I think says it all. because that first half in particular, they were just atrocious. If I think back to what went well, I think Josh McLeod won a penalty turnover and they held up England over the line. And those are the two things I can think of that went well in the first half. They clearly came here to do something pragmatic, to kick well, to contest for the ball. But they just wilted under pressure, conceded so many penalties. twice in the match went down to 13 players essentially for 10 minute periods just invited pressure onto them silly moments and they just didn't stand a chance and there would have been a time 10 20 years ago where even 29 nil down you'd think Wales are a second half team they always start slowly in the six nations but even those old certainties are gone now and it was just they did better in the second half they clearly tried to up the tempo to do something having not done anything in the first half but it was just terrible a terrible result terrible performance

3:45Alfie Reynolds: and a terrible result i've just come up to this gantry from the press conferences and and dowry lake always speaks excellently like what a horrible job this is for him to be the captain of the worst wales team of all time this is now their 12th consecutive six nations defeat and what more do you say really and he's asked the question what did you make of that kind of thing and to be fair to him it was the strongest I think he's been in this run and he said we let the country down we let ourselves down we came here saying that we would do x y and z and we just didn't do any of it and look I was I was worried before the game that because England fans would be expecting to be entertained and Welsh fans are coming here not expecting anything that the whole place would be really flat and actually I thought it was slightly better than it could have been on that front but the game was over in 10 minutes 15 minutes Wales conceded 10 penalties in 20 minutes which is the record they've ever conceded in a six nations game is 18 and they ended up on 16 so they actually wrestled it back quite well and there was a bit of it they made the sort of 50 to 65 minute bit sticky which is I guess to their credit and they scored a try at least they didn't get nilled but these are tiny tiny tiny straws to clutch at eight years ago Wales conceded two

5:03Elgan Alderman: penalties in the entire match at Twickenham. They conceded 16 today. I mean, there were 28 penalties in the match, which is a lot. Yeah, and lots of cards. Four yellows for Wales, two for England. There were 16 penalties conceded by Wales, 12 conceded by England. But it was just little things like, you know, in that first half, Josh McLeod knew he was in an offside position after Louis Rui Sammett's kick, and he just advances too quickly, and suddenly you downfield when, briefly, England were under a little bit of pressure. Derry Lake not tapping the ball when it's a tap five metres out. It's not even the first time he's done it in international rugby.

5:37Elgan Alderman: He did it four years ago in the Ange Capuazzo Italy game that was at the time a humiliating game. And I think there have been maybe five, six or seven even more humiliating instances since that match.

5:49Alfie Reynolds: And look, it should have really been 50. It should have really been 60. And actually it would have been 50 if George Ford hadn't hit the right post with his final conversion. I think this bench actually came on and didn't really add anything they all sort of made annoying errors like Luke Cowan Dickey neck roll denied a try, Ben Spencer kicked one out badly, Marcus Smith kicked one out on the full, Marrow got a sort of team yellow card immediately having just come on, Tom Curry hit someone in the head and got a yellow card himself so actually Pollock should have scored his try and didn't and actually it was a penalty try anyway and that almost felt like a gratuitous whale as being like let's just make sure Pollock doesn't score but if it had been 50 that would have been Wales conceding 50 twice against England in the last two, and to Argentina, and to New Zealand, and to South Africa.

6:35Alfie Reynolds: And look, there have been some tighter ones, like Ireland game last year was tighter. There's also another 40-odd against France in there that started last year's tournament. And you'd just be like, they're not actually just getting beaten now, they just get absolutely pummeled. And that shows the gap, I'm afraid, doesn't it, Elgin?

6:52Elgan Alderman: You mentioned the New Zealand-Argentina games in the autumn. Yes, they conceded 50-odd points, but they also scored some really good tries. They put some rugby together, and today there was just none of that. They put nothing together, essentially. They had that one try in the second half, but in that first half, if you were conducting a Wales-only highlights reel, it would start in the 41st minute when they ran out for the second half.

7:15Alfie Reynolds: Well, it felt like we were sort of bemoaning the adverts, weren't we, on Thursday's pod. And I think Ireland and Wales fans were probably going like, can we have more ads, please? like maybe just get rid of half of this game please but it's been a fascinating opening to the tournament hasn't it because i guess france started incredibly and they had their sticky bit didn't they sort of 50 odd minutes nyan came back at them scored a couple of tries but that was a dominant 20 point victory wasn't it 22 point victory and england have put wales away nicely there there looks to be a massive gap now doesn't there the top two and then and then the rest and like what a result for Italy by the way predicted by me on this part I got one I got one right um but yeah it looks like so much is going to change over the next five weeks isn't it but if you're building the narrative now you're going who's got an 80 minute performance in them England have played well for 40 50 France have played well for 40 50 they meet on the final day can both of them get to the point where they're both playing incredible rugby because that could be an amazing finish to the tournament if it goes like it should do which it obviously won't yeah i

8:26Will Kelleher: was saying to elgin just before you joined us up here will almost thank goodness for italy scotland on this opening weekend because france island france very good but was pretty disappointing this game here went as expected but wales were awful we'll chat about that italy win more on monday's pod when we're back in studio just maybe a couple more on wales before we get onto the English perspective or the England fallout to this game Steve Tandy and Dowie Lake in the press conference I agree well I thought they they spoke well given the circumstances and they said that performance in the first half wasn't good enough our discipline wasn't good enough we spoke about it before the game we let the country down we you know all of that stuff but almost the the next progression from that and Dowie Lake also said it's not for a lack of trying which is kind of a given it's obviously not going to be because they're not trying but then the natural progression from that is this team isn't good enough and we were speaking on Thursday about Wales will probably lose here but can they give the Welsh rugby public something can they give people a reason to think do you know what I am going to buy a ticket for France next week which by the way there are 25 ,000 empty seats for that game I mean that could be grim and they haven't have they after this so it's almost like where do Wales go off the back of this because what we hoped they might be able to do even in defeat they have been miles away from achieving that some people say there should

9:44Elgan Alderman: be some changes and I think there are some positions in that team where there could be better options I've got nothing against Ben Thomas at 12 but I just don't think it's been working I wonder if they should have a sturdy presence at 12 but it also feels churlish when you've got people after the match saying oh I'm not sure how Lewis Riesamit went to 15 you know moaning about that sort of feels like moaning about a plant pot having been blown over when you're surveying the wreckage of a hurricane to be perfectly honest what a phrase that is like i thought i thought you know there was a moment where he didn't do that well but he carried quite well but it was just 15 man malaise and that was the problem you know passes going behind and then england just run it in uh like i say just inviting pressure onto you know people will say oh you know the referee was very hot anything wales did bit unlucky to get those yellow cards but it's a combination of being put under pressure or inviting it onto yourself to be in situations where you do pay the cost for doing that.

10:38Elgan Alderman: So you get those two yellows because you've been put under pressure. And then suddenly, yeah, you're staring at, I mean, they played basically 20 minutes of the match with 13 men where good luck doing it. I mean, Wales have got enough history. In this stadium, again, failing to score against 13 men in that 2015 World Cup, let alone trying to do it with 13 men on the field. So right now, speaking what, an hour and a half after the game, it's very difficult to look at anything that Wales can hang their hat on and say that's given us shoots of recovery. All you can think is that they just have to train very hard this week and turn it around completely because it's France on Sunday now.

11:14Elgan Alderman: Well, that was my next thought,

11:16Alfie Reynolds: is that we're all in this kind of doom-mongering mode about Welsh rugby, but it's kind of all justified. But you think this whole scene could unravel so quickly. And Welsh fans will be listening to this being like, oh, so it's not unraveled already? but like France next Saturday could be absolutely galling couldn't it could be awful could be painful really really bad with the the stadium not full and them getting put what 60 on 70 on maybe could be more like if it if they really are hungry for it BL Beret could get five like it's that sort of thing and then you go add the add to that the WRU chaos add to that the Osprey saga add to that everything else you think when on earth is this ever going to stop like that's the real worry isn't it that this is this is kind of we can't really call it the end because things turn around cycles happen we've seen other teams in this tournament be dreadful for a long time Italy 37 was it defeats in a row something of that nature and now look at them they've won a game in the wet but you're like when on earth is this going to stop for Wales I'm glad you

12:26Will Kelleher: mention italy horrible question but i think we are in this sort of discussion are wales now worse than italy were during that run when they couldn't buy a win well statistically no because

12:38Alfie Reynolds: well italy lost that 30 odd games in a row i can't remember exactly what it was but it was 36 36 so so there are two three tournaments off that so no and it's it's really difficult to say because As I said on Thursday, you look around the team and you go, well, Nicky Smith is an excellent loose head prop. Derry Lake's an excellent hooker. Thomas Francis has been in the Pro-Di-Do, but he's a 70-cap tight head who's gone to World Cup semi-finals. He's not a bad player. Zamit's a good player. They've got some issues because they just don't have any depth and any power. Daffod Jenkins is a good player.

13:17Alfie Reynolds: And in some ways you kind of go, why can't they get anything out of these talents? some of the talent they don't have a lot of it but they've got six good players haven't they some international teams don't have two or three so like it's not a total basket case and they've got decent coaches and everything else you just think i think in maybe there's a thing here in rugby these days is that if you're off it a bit you get battered whereas maybe like you love your rugby history elgin like in obviously we had fewer points for try and things like that a long time ago but maybe the margin of being five percent off wasn't capitalized on as much as it is these days like when you're we see it in the prem don't we see massively one-sided swing results where someone gets battered by 60 out of nowhere and these days if you're one two three four five

14:05Elgan Alderman: percent off you just get put away don't you yeah they're you know like i said wales have had very bad moments in their history even in the six nations era like the start of the 21st century you know losing i think 54 10 to ireland results like that shipping 60 points to england but in that sphere of rugby like what you said there was always an element if you could by the seat of your pants just chuck the ball around and somehow just score four tries against england ireland or whatever whereas now yeah if you're if you're off the penalties rack up the scrum racks up you miss line outs which wales did little things you just make two small errors sometimes and you know it's 80 meters of field position and then just relentless carrying the example of that today

14:42Alfie Reynolds: was the double yellow wasn't it so like they're pulling down moore's left right and center nicky smith goes and then dowry lake's gone straight away and then england obviously go well we'll have a scrum thanks because you've just lost your hooker and your loose head and so then they have to bring off two backs 13 men arundel scores on the left and it's done and so that's exactly what

14:57Elgan Alderman: we're talking about errors on errors and if you get away with it once you've got away with it but if you don't get away with it the first time and then you don't get away with it twice in a row then suddenly just to put some meat on the meat on the bone about talking about italy i looked into it when you mentioned it when we were walking over and the worst they did was 2021 when their points difference was minus 184 so that's basically averaging a 37 point defeat in every game so they're just above that now we'll see what they get to last year wales it was minus 119 so it was an average of a 24 point defeat so that's the number you're looking at it's italy had two years where they basically averaged 30 point defeats and then five years ago it was almost an average of a 40-point defeat.

15:37Elgan Alderman: So that's what you're looking at for the least successful teams in Six Nations history. Currently, Wales are on target, but there are four more rounds to go. So we'll see what happens.

15:46Will Kelleher: Yeah, maybe we're not quite there yet with Wales. And I also think there's a perception and expectation thing as well. And that Italy, you always thought, well, they turn up and lose every game. Whereas with Wales, we're still kind of clinging on to, hang on a minute, not that long ago, they had Sam Warburton and all these great teams that won Grand Slam. So it's such a stark contrast to that. If we get on to England, because the other side of this, Will, is, you know, look, we expected England to win and to win well, but they still had to come up and perform and do that. And with all of the territory that Wales coughed up and all of the ill-discipline that Wales gave England opportunities, they took them really well.

16:21Will Kelleher: You've still got to win the game, haven't you? They were out of sight, weren't they, by 20 minutes, 25 minutes.

16:25Alfie Reynolds: And actually, I thought, I did the England ratings in the Sunday Times and my star man was Oli Chesson, which he didn't win man of the match, but I thought, possibly, it's easier to have a great game at 10 when your pack is so dominant. So George Ford got the official man of the match. I thought Chesson was excellent. All the line-outs were perfect. I think actually Alex Coles was calling them, but Chesson also looked brilliant in the loose. He made a couple of really leggy, giraffe-y type carries, which he does a few of. And he offloaded well as well.

16:51Will Kelleher: Did you notice, by the way, in the press, I asked Steve Borthwick about his starting second row pair. He did the thing where he basically listed every second row in the squad. He's not talking about any one player. He started talking about George Martin. We've got lots of good players. But I agree. I thought Chesson was immense, actually. Really, really good.

17:07Alfie Reynolds: And he's grown quite quickly into a very strong test player and a senior leader in the England team, I think. And that's why I think we talked again on Thursday about Mara being left on the bench. Maybe it was more than just the personal tragedy thing that he had, which is obviously awful, but I think there were sporting reasons why he was left on the bench. And Chesson being an excellent lock and a great leader in the team is one of them. I think the, yeah, we mentioned the bench was, I mean, how do you add that much to a game that's done?

17:38Will Kelleher: I actually think that was probably the really, when you talk about the bench not having the impact it had in the autumn. Because the game wasn't in the balance. The game's in the autumn, they had to come on and win the game and see it out. Here they had to come on and play 20 minutes or play half an hour and it was all done.

17:52Alfie Reynolds: And maybe some of them were searching for moments that weren't quite there and trying to just, it's a bit like, I don't know, maybe some of them are desperate to start next week and it's almost like you I don't know you're in your under 14s trial game for your county and you're like I'll do it all myself and it's like no just play the system play the team so there are a couple of bits like that but you can't really begrudge what 48-7 off to a flyer and actually England don't usually start these tournaments very well they often have in recent years lost the first game the massive massive challenge for England now which I feel like we'll get on to really quickly is Murrayfield even though Scotland have lost this is a place they haven't lost this guy loves the Calcutta Cup as well he's talking about it all last week is this an English plot it was an Italian plot was it to get them to lose that game am I allowed to speak about it now but England haven't won there since 2020 and that game was an utter utter disgrace because it was it was the storm storm and they won 13-6 with a pushover I think it was Genge with Earl on his behind Earl's debut actually and Ford kicking the ball up in the air and it going behind him and stuff like that and they lost in 18 so that's actually only two wins 16 and 20 in all of that time and also the other thing with England now is that they're now 12 unbeaten and you can say they haven't under Borthwick won many big games away from home have they they've won they've beaten Argentina with a second team very creditable we've mentioned that a few times but and I know Scotland are not in the sort of top tier of it's not an Ellis Park it's not a Stade de France no it doesn't matter though it's not an Aviva but I don't think it matters this is massive England to develop and go forward and be on for what people expect them to be on for the championship they have to turn up play well play big get out of there with a result and they've got a Scotland are not a bad team overnight and they will be fizzing after that

19:44Will Kelleher: I was going to say unless it really unravels for Scotland I don't think the fact they've lost to Italy... It doesn't really change it, does it? It doesn't change, I don't think, the complexion of that game against England. It will be bouncing. It will be hostile. It is going to be a really, really difficult away game for England. I almost asked Steve Borthwick in the presser about the game today. I didn't in the end because you're just never going to get anything. But what can you almost take away from this Wales game when your opponents are so profligate, so ill-disciplined? But I didn't think it was worthwhile.

20:13Will Kelleher: Shall we mention Henry Arundel? Because hat-trick in the first half. I spoke to him on Thursday and we just spoke to him in the mix zone. And he's a really good talker. He's really engaging, interesting. He was talking about how he's really having to try and enjoy this moment and scoring a hat-trick at Twickenham, playing for England, starting in the first half, all that sort of stuff. He's got a lot of Scottish family as well, apparently. He went to primary school in Edinburgh. Rining up for tickets.

20:40Alfie Reynolds: I've always liked watching Arundel play because it's so a bit like when re-sammit's on fire you kind of go there's nothing better than watching someone who's just so fast and you just know when they get the ball everyone goes what are they going to do and there are a couple of moments where he didn't quite beat someone today but actually afterwards george ford was saying some of that is really more creditable that he makes a two-on-two into a two-on-one by just getting away from someone enough to get the pass away and there's one of those later in the game but yeah he called his hat trick all tappings which is like i don't know you just take them anyway don't you like they're all on the left wing but what what a

21:16Will Kelleher: great day like I guess the first start since 23 World Cup I think the wider point for me when I look at Arundel is there was always this discussion wasn't there since he you know burst through of London Irish and he was part of the the World Cup squad in 2023 but we talk about England building depth which has been a huge talking point since all of last year and now and now all of a sudden you look at it he just adds more depth to this team and he's clearly a much more all-round player than he was three years ago.

21:40Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, he's worked a lot on his defence, clearly, which wasn't tested very heavily today, and his highball stuff. And the stats show that he's got a lot, a lot better at that. And he himself talks about idolising Cheslin Colby and being that kind of guy who is an all-rounder. He's an excellent all-rounder. I mean, Colby's obviously an incredibly dynamic attacker, but he's so good under the air as someone who's so short and everything else. So he's looking at him. Yeah, I just like that story because he literally burst on the scene, didn't he? First touch in Perth, scored that try. We ran over James O 'Connor, I think it was, and then didn't quite find his way in that Six Nations in 23.

22:21Alfie Reynolds: Started, I think, in Ireland and dropped the ball a couple of times. And he's young. He's like 19, 20 years old. World Cup, just is asked to chase kicks for that whole tournament. And he shouted out by Owen Farrell a bit and goes a bit, oh, wow, international rugby is not quite what I thought it was. and then goes to France because of that collapse of Irish and everything else. So it's just a nice story for him to come back and score a hat-trick. It's cool.

22:42Elgan Alderman: If you're being hypercritical, it's that we still haven't yet seen England. And obviously today was a singular fixture given what Wales were doing. But we still haven't seen England really get him into a game properly in the way that you see Louis Bielbierre France, the way they get him into a game. And perhaps not helped by the fact that Bath, who have played such tight rugby this year, There are some games this year where he's almost a passenger at times. He's an absolute great finisher if you give him the ball in open space, but we maybe haven't seen him do any proper game-breaking stuff like we saw when he was a full-back, lest we forget.

23:18Elgan Alderman: We don't see him at full-back very often anymore, but that would be something that would be nice to see at club or country.

23:23Alfie Reynolds: That is true, isn't it? Because, again, being hypercritical, in inverted commas, anyone can score a hat-trick against one of the worst Wales teams ever, and I don't mean that, really. I'm just sort of saying like the tries he scored were fairly simple finishes. Although I thought the third one was clear pace. Dingwall just went, yours mate, go. And that was a really nice finish. But you're right. I guess the next step for him is to break a game open that's tight, like Murrayfield maybe next week, where it's like, England need to score this try here. And he does a Doohan kind of moment and just goes, boom, changes the game.

23:56Will Kelleher: Or I think he should look at someone like Faye Waboso. Because I suppose... Come off the wing a bit. Or the flip side to what you're saying, out when you said that is is um you know is he going to break a game open or whatever i was thinking is he ever going to be put in a position by england to do that because they don't really play that way but then faye reboso is able to do it in an england team that isn't playing that way

24:13Elgan Alderman: so yeah i guess that's the next challenge or even just out here today you know when you're when you're scrabbling around for things wales did well lewis re sammet did have that one break where we saw some more of that nfl muscle where he did actually actually make you know sort of 30 yard line break etc we don't often see and again not necessarily his fault because of where he's being asked to play we don't see Arendal sort of stepping up the middle of the field from a from a kick or a loose ball that much anymore in the way that you know I know he's not in the France team anymore but you know when when France would get a turnover in recent seasons Damien Penneau would just appear out of nowhere and suddenly be on the ball in the middle of in the middle of the breakaway

24:49Alfie Reynolds: that Chris Ashton instinct for like that's where I need to be because there's that's going to be the pass or that's going to be the break I need to follow through yeah there's loads of areas to develop but I think there's quite a few of those sorts of players now with England where you're going they're playing decent rugby but they've got loads of levels to go to and they're only 22 or 23 like Guy Peppers another one like in a completely different position where you go you can now guarantee that Guy Peppers is going to make 15 tackles and be excellent in the back row and he's only got what like seven to ten caps and this is the very start of his international career which is why I think people are excited about the England team and where they could go to but they need to just keep backing up don't they and and beating teams that aren't as good as them and then beating the teams that are better than them on paper which is where then murray field as we

25:36Will Kelleher: said already becomes such a i'm so i'm just so fat i'm so excited about next week i'm so i it's i just think it's going to be awesome it's never straightforward is it like it's england aren't

25:45Alfie Reynolds: just going to go and waltz up there and put 50 on them and go oh there we go yeah lovely stuff back to ireland at home i mean i mean look we don't know what all happened with ireland like farrell could rip 12 strips off them and then they come out and they're completely different team next week and the week after and also the other thing about this being a short tournament which i think is a good thing for england at the moment and france is that once you've got momentum that where we use every year you've got three games in a row now to just go bam bam bam we're in the flow here we go and if you're in a sticky spot like wales it's like oh my god next week's france oh then and then and then whereas before you'd get two break one match break it was all a bit kind of staccato and you could lose momentum whereas if you're on it you should be on it for three weeks on the spin shouldn't you

26:34Will Kelleher: now if you're listening to this you're clearly a rugby fan which means you'll know that style and performance go hand in hand that's why we're thrilled to be partnered with charles tirrett they aren't just experts in tailoring they are the official formal wear partner to england rugby They've been dressing the squad and coaches for six years now and they even count legends like Matt Dawson and Marcus Smith as brand ambassadors. For the England fans out there, you need to check out their official England rugby collection. It features Tirrett classics like those iconic shirts and knitwear all embroidered with the England rose so you can show your support in style whether you're at the stadium or watching from the sofa.

27:16Will Kelleher: Shop the new season now at charlestirrett.com.

27:49Elgan Alderman: ¡Feliz cumpleaños, Rafa! ¡Sopla, sopla! ¡Traigan la manguera que son 45!

27:57Will Kelleher: Cuando cumples 45, te toca soplar muchas velas y examinarte contra el cáncer de colon, ya que al detectarse temprano es más tratable en 9 de cada 10 personas. Usa la prueba de Cologuard en la privacidad de tu casa y envíala de regreso para obtener tus resultados. The test is a option with a receta to detect the colon cancer in people of 45 years or more with a high risk. The positive positive results can be followed by a colonoscopy. The results can be positive and negative. The test is not replaced by colonoscopy patients with high risk. No use Cologuard if you have an adenomas, if you have an inflammatory intestinal, or a certain disease of a person or family of colon cancer.

28:37Will Kelleher: Pide the test to your doctor. For more information in Spanish, visit www.cologard.com.

29:09Alfie Reynolds: done it this was the fourth time i think he's played centre for england and i think there are still moments where he runs like a winger at 13 like there was there was one and like anyone can throw a bad pass but there was one really really bad pass that he threw in the 13 channel that just went way behind must have been roebuck on the right wing and there's a couple of times where because he's used to running on the right wing as a winger he sort of eats into the space whereas as a 13 you'd want him to draw the man and put the wing away so he can work on that but he carried well he's he's beefy in the carry like he did stuff that whales just aren't doing where off a line out you can like earl's amazing at it he runs at that seam doesn't he between the back of the line out and where they have to be 10 meters back and freeman did that a couple of times too ably supported by dingwall who i thought was excellent again and actually almost gets like down with faint praise doesn't he dingwall is like oh well he just makes other people look good but Actually, he makes himself look good as well.

30:06Alfie Reynolds: He's got lovely hands. I thought he was really... I thought they were both very good. And he's actually... When you watch him play with Freeman a couple of times, he... Freeman will make the break and Dingwall, when they hit contact, will almost go on the latch behind him as well to give him that extra push over the game line. So you're sort of, I don't know, 30 stone of beef going over the line there. So they're so wedded to that 13 project with Freeman now to the point where they basically said Robat wasn't quite fit when Manny pulled out. Fabio Boso. But they thought, well, play him. because they were desperate to see because the easier thing would have been Freeman to the wing put Slade or someone at 13 or Daly or a Jomo maybe or whoever but yeah they're wedded to that so they're going to keep on with that I'm sure up in Murrayfield

30:47Elgan Alderman: or Earl at 12 from the start we saw it later on but not from the start I can I actually say a

30:52Alfie Reynolds: little because I was doing again doing the ratings and for that sometimes you try and add to your thinking with some of the numbers to be like have I has he made loads of tackles has he done this and Earl is remarkable on all the stats all the time I think he carried nearly 80 meters today from number eight and some of it was at 12 um and he makes 70 or 17 carries like 80 meters and he's making 15 tackles he's and also like when Tom Willis has dropped out the team and he was the kind of eight that England thought they were looking for you a bit like Ben Aldo like quietly just got 40 caps at number eight and is dominating on the game line getting loads of meters playing really well he's often man of the match he's been he's been a very good player for

31:33Elgan Alderman: a long time now hasn't he while ben earl is available i don't think england have any trouble in the number eight stakes yeah i just i know there's been i know there's a lot of talk about you know when tom curry did it when ben earl did it it's the type of thing where france would do it and it would just be like yeah of course we're picking this person at eight why not they just pick anyone between four five six seven and eight yeah they just have people that throw them in

31:53Alfie Reynolds: anyway they've got some amazing athletes don't they like olivon played four didn't he they

31:57Elgan Alderman: basically have two people that have played number eight internationally or top 14 in the second row and then they have someone like Boudin and Wokie who weren't even in the squad who just flip between four and eight and seven all the time yeah you're right because when I went to watch Bordeaux

32:10Alfie Reynolds: Saints Wokie who I've always thought is a sort of number four lock was wearing seven and we know France change it around like South Africa a bit don't they with seven is the six kind of thing but yeah those back five members of the scrum often are quite similar these I mean England do it a bit less because it's very obviously locks with Coles and Marrow and but do you not think

32:30Will Kelleher: England have their own identity in that back five of the scrum now in that you've got Chessham who we've spoken about and Marrow two excellent international like quality quality locks Coles is coming through and looking a lot better and then the kind of three sevens as their back row yeah almost feels like it's starting to become the a bit of the USP of this team like that's how

32:49Elgan Alderman: they're going to operate we talked about in the autumn how if you have Curry and Underhill which was the classic eddie jones 2019 combination that's great but actually when you have pepper with underhill or curry pepper's doing something very different to what those two are doing they actually do quite a similar thing so it does mean you've got a six who's doing something a seven is doing something different and then eight who's doing something different or different again and uh yeah ben earl is just you just look at him carry you just think that is the dynamism that whales simply don't have someone who just always looks like they're a ball a fizzing ball of energy that is going to be so hard to put down all right so round us off loads more to come on

33:26Will Kelleher: monday's pod when i'll be back in studio we'll look back on on the action over the weekend and throw it ahead to next weekend but for you gentlemen uh should we do wales first elgin where do wales go from here how do they pick themselves up ahead of facing the defending

33:38Elgan Alderman: champions it's going to be a very awkward monday morning where they look at all those areas and they've just got to look at them and go lads we just simply weren't good enough on saturday we We were completely overawed. Discipline was atrocious and just hamstrung us from the start. We're about to come up against France in Sunday. Let's put some passion and oil back in the jersey, back in Cardiff. You know, it's not going to be easy, but they've just got to do something because otherwise we're staring at another, yeah, 41-point defeat and maybe worse. Last time, what was it, two years ago, 20-odd point defeat or something like that.

34:11Elgan Alderman: And when they played in Paris last year, it was, what, 40-odd nil. so that's what they're staring at with the recent results so they've just got to discover something that was sorely lacking in the first half here and Will from an England point of view they don't

34:25Will Kelleher: have that problem of having to get themselves back up how do you think the coaches and the players tap into it this week do you think they lean into the last victory up in Edinburgh was 2020 this is a team that have beaten us at Twickenham which they never did on a couple of different occasions or do you think they almost move away from that and they say lads we've won 12 in a row we're in the conversation of potentially winning this title for a reason we don't we don't need to

34:49Alfie Reynolds: worry about all of that we're good enough let's go out there let's do it i think i sort of garbled it probably on on our thursday pod but i think the best england teams own it chest out chin out delaglio style kind of like we're here what are you going to do about it and too many england teams have gone away from home and been meek and have been a bit apologetic about some of it's a bit kind of about being English and being the hated and being the kind of older bigger nasty horrible brother that everyone dislikes like sometimes England have just got to go yeah actually we're really good come on then have a pop at us like they've won 12 in a row they should be in good form they should be flowing nicely they should on form go and win at Murrayfield but we know that in recent years they haven't so I think they've got to go up there Tommy Freeman actually used the word swagger in Girona and I thought that was quite a good word to use like don't be don't be like overly arrogant about it you don't all need to be like Henry Pollock maybe which we enjoy by the way but just go up there and I don't know just be a just be a bit more like yeah come

35:56Elgan Alderman: on then what have you got Scotland my my viewpoint growing up on the other side of the border was always that England are excellent flat track bullies and I don't mean that as an insult that when and that's why they're the only team that's never lost to Italy I think because they are good flat track they put away bad teams when they've had to now like you what you say there is they want to be on a difficult deck bullies basically that's that's the next step that they have to do yeah on a raging bunsen they've got to be bullies basically but the other thing i would

36:24Will Kelleher: say perhaps with the exception of the sir clive woodward 2003 world cup winning team england could often be quite uncomfortable being expected to win when you fancy them when you expect them to do it through a whole six nations goes back to what we said on thursday doesn't it they don't

36:38Alfie Reynolds: do it that often yeah and actually i would say the character of the early borswick team was that they needed some adversity either in a game or from the last match to respond they needed to be punched in the face either by someone going 14 nil up at them to then go oh right now we're really angry about that and we're going to respond or like all these six nations in recent years where they've lost a game and then they go whoa we've just beaten ireland out of nowhere or like i lost to Ireland, oh everything's bad again, oh no but then we beat in France and they've always needed that kind of negativity to fuel them whereas if they're going to be the team they want to be they need to get used to being favourites very quickly which the box are excellent at the best New Zealand teams have always been excellent at going like yeah we should win, of course we should and England have it's a Six Nations thing isn't it, everyone wants to clutch to be the underdog at all times but England just can't do that now.

37:30Elgan Alderman: Culturally England are never the underdog, in sport no they can't be no the entire they should never be in sport is predicated entirely on people wanting to beat england that's it that is what sport is that's why they became popular yeah rugby and cricket that's why they exist that's why they exist yeah yeah uh we will leave it there

37:47Will Kelleher: send us an email give us your thoughts on the england game but also anything else that's cropped up over this opening weekend of the six nations the email address is the ruck at the times.co.uk Also a reminder, on Monday the 9th of March, we have a Ruck Live. It's happening at the Twickenham Stoop in the evening on the 9th of March. Head online to the Times to book your tickets. We're going to have Courtney Laws and Serge Betson joining us. And we're going to be looking ahead, that's going to be looking ahead to the final weekend in the Six Nations, that big game between France and England. And a trail for tomorrow's pod.

38:20Alfie Reynolds: Stand by your YouTubes. Stand by your podcast apps, because we've got some news for you. big news big news

38:27Will Kelleher: big news exciting news actually here's what I'll say I'm back in studio I've got Owen Slott alongside me Chief Sports Writer's in Chief Sports Writer so you know it's a big one and dot dot dot wow it's not me

38:40Alfie Reynolds: it's neither of us I'm going to Peniel Park

38:42Elgan Alderman: I'm having a lie down in a quiet room he's looking back to what 2013 I'm watching Lloyd Williams left foot centre field kick again no one does that anymore

38:53Will Kelleher: alright we will leave it there thank you for listening back with you on Monday. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. This episode of The Ruck is brought to you by Charles Tyrrett, who are all about making men look and feel great. For the England fans out there, you need to check out their official England rugby collection, which features shirts, polos and knitwear. And we all know Tyrrett for the workwear, but their casual game is just as strong. Think premium knitwear trainers and polos that make dressing well easy. Check it out for yourself in one of their 45 nationwide stores or visit charlestirrett.com.

39:36Will Kelleher: Katie Prescott here from the Times Tech podcast. Join me for a special sponsored episode featuring Lilia Christoffi, a partner at PwC, talking about agentic AI beyond the hype. She leads the firm's EMEA financial services, data and AI practice. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.