Derby day ding dongs! Inside Leicester Tigers

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2:06Hello, hello. Welcome along to The Ruck, the rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times for the second time in a week. Welcome back. I'm Alfie Reynolds. That is the voice of Will Kelleher. We said on Monday, Will, that we were coming up here to Leicester Tigers and here we find ourselves in the Midlands. And this is your first trip to Oval Park. My first trip to the Leicester Tigers training ground. And as you said to me when I arrived, and I think this is meant as a compliment, it's very Leicester Tigers. Don't you think? It's quite homespun, let's say. Yeah. Quite elements of spit and sawdust.

2:38Yeah. I remember when, so Freddie Burns, we've seen walking around the place, obviously came back, the hero of that final a few years ago. and his video talking about him coming back to Leicester was all about how old the changing room was and how there's probably still someone's floater in the toilet and like things like that. And there's an element always with things that Leicester do that is very grounded in its own history and very respectful of its past. And it's interesting because I think we'll talk to the guys about this today that we're getting on, two big hitters, but everything has to evolve, everything has to change.

3:15We're sitting in what is now Leicester Tigers' podcast studio, which I reckon they wouldn't have had in the days of the old ABC club. Can you imagine that? Darren Garthoff, Cockers, Roundtree. Just got to pop into the podcast studio, that's. On the velvet green sofa that you're now sitting on with some like, I don't know, what have we got here? We've got like indoor plants and... Got some, yeah, different plants, some nice lighting, some pictures up on the shelves of the Tigers players. It looks like to me they've been to Oliver Bonas. That's all I'm saying. which I doubt the old boys would have done before.

3:46But you're right. Things evolve, don't they? Things change. Times change, but also some things stay the same, which is... A lovely segue to your next sentence, yeah. There you go, exactly. Thanks very much. It doesn't become quite as much of a segue though. When I highlight it, yeah. But some things stay the same, and that is Leicester Tigers, Northampton Saints, a proper, proper derby. Part of the reason we've come up here is it's derby weekend, we should say as well, actually, because we often talk about access and teams being proactive on the pod. But John at Leicester invited us up here to chat to a few of the players and build up to their game against Northampton.

4:19But that is a proper derby. Yeah, fantastic. And thank you, as we said, to the Tigers media team for being proactive and all that. It's good to give people props when they deserve it. And yeah, I think I remember, Alfie, when they established these derby weekends, because obviously they were kind of happening anyway, but there was a bit of a formalisation of derby weekend. We did a little pod where we were saying, what's the best derby what is the best prem derby out there and we've all said Tigers Saints didn't we yeah 100 % I mean I feel like it is just one of those there are some derbies on derby weekend that more derbies than others but this is one of those that and we'll get it today whenever you speak to people involved in the clubs you feel it you know it's real and yeah I think this weekend's really really intriguing especially because maybe more so in the modern era of both teams they represent slightly different versions of how to play the game and Tigers changed their style a little bit last season they were moving the ball quite well wide weren't they and guys like Hassel Collins, Hamer Webb, Raduam were bagging a lot of tries but sort of the traditional heart of Leicester still remains of the sort of scrum and the maul and the value of defence and things like that whereas certainly in the modern era wasn't necessarily the same in the 2010s maybe when Saints won their first prime title but nowadays they are the most fantastic attacking team the fastest team in the in the East Midlands aren't they and basically everywhere else yeah in English rugby and it's also fascinating because you've got key protagonists who are England regulars on both sides there was Niggle with a bit of silliness from Henry Pollock shadow boxing at Welford Road last year last season sorry and then Saints did them in the semi-final.

6:09They've been waxing and waning of this rivalry over the years and we'll do a little quiz actually with one of our guests coming up about it all. But I like the fact that there's a lot going on when these two meet. It's great fun, isn't it? Yeah, looking forward to it. And speaking of guests, should we get into them? So coming up in just a moment, we are going to be chatting to Oli Chessom. Okay, big red, lovely stuff. Increasingly important figure, certainly here at Leicester and with England as well. So Chesson coming up, but we're going to start off with Joe Hayes, who had a brilliant last couple of years, hasn't he?

6:39Yeah, fantastic. And like, I'd like to ask him about it, but I think he's someone that's in a good way taking the slow road. We see a lot of players burst to stardom. Pollock's one we've mentioned, but Hayes shows the value. And he's 27 now, someone who's done it slowly and that has been a good thing. and he's got a lot else going on, hasn't he? Other than just smashing into scrums and winning penalties at tight head. Well, let's speak to him about that. First up on the pod is Joe Hayes. Joe Hayes, good to see you, Joe. How are you? I'm very well. Yeah, all good. Has it been a weird start to the season with having three rounds of Prem and kind of the one Champions Cup game as well?

7:20It feels like everyone's a little bit... We've all been a bit caught off guard, haven't we? Yeah, I don't know, really. No, we've had some weirder starts to Premiership seasons. It's been all right. it's been good it's been good to get a good block and then freshen it up I reckon with a bit of Europe as well so and then Derby weekend which we'll come on to but it's going to be good fun as well Joe I don't know if you remember this but the last time I saw you was in quite a salubrious setting do you remember? salubrious you can have to it was in the business class seats of the flight home oh salubrious that's what that means yeah it was yeah yeah yeah I told Alfie that earlier and he was like did work book you a business class seat home I was thinking there's absolutely no chance the office of books that was just a free upgrade and it was a free upgrade Because I remember you turned to me when I sat down and you were like, you're doing well.

8:00Yeah, yeah. And I was like, I'm not. I'm not. I want to be a journalist. I got an accidental free upgrade. And it was quite awkward because, like, as the only journalist in the section, it was basically the whole England team. And I was sitting there being like, I feel. Yeah, we were being super careful what we were saying. I was going to say, everyone must have been looking around like, how on earth has he got in here? What's going on here? I won't say who, but I did get slightly, like, mildly threatened if I reported anything on what happened in the business class. but nothing did you were very calm was that the way back from Argentina it was yeah so that was yeah we were all having it was more of a relaxed flight home yeah and then you went off to Sicily and had a holiday Sardinia yeah so how was all of that because we've seen all your historical videos on your new Insta it's been going really well I've enjoyed it I've done ones on holiday and now I'm just trying to find the local spots what's good around so I've done some in Leicester yeah hopefully there's some mummies in Leicester Egyptian mummies I was going to say careful and I want to go see them as well so okay I was just trying to sorry there's some Egyptian mummies yeah there's four of them actually they were the only ones one of the only ones given to the United Kingdom why do we know why I'm not entirely sure well you'll find out on the next I'm sure I'll find out don't spoil the content the one that I was saying to you before I was genuinely fascinated by was the Buxton one yeah yeah and how in the in the middle of Buxton everyone can get free Buxton I didn't know that.

9:26And the good thing about it is I'm just traveling. So I actually went to Buxton to propose to my now fiance, which is very much. But opportunity arose. I saw this well and I went, oh, I'm going to do a quick video on that. So I just went ahead and did that. So what order did you do those things in? I got engaged first and then the video. I was going to say, you can't be like, can we just pause for five minutes? Just stop this here. Yeah, yeah. There's a really good well. That was cool. Yeah. I mean, Buxton mineral water just coming out of a well. And there's genuinely local people just going up with like their massive cans.

9:57People travel from Manchester. It was a good like two hours filling up and then taking it back. Some Italian restaurant was taking it all back and filling it up. They're free water. Probably saying it was San Pellegrino and not Boston, yeah. Is it noticeably nicer water as well? It was warm. Warm? Yeah, it was a constant temperature of 26 degrees. So I would then say, no, it's not. But it cools down because it's a hot spring. So, yeah. So it's sort of geothermal. It is exactly geothermal. exciting this is great we haven't talked about any rugby this is great it's interesting should we become like a cultural pod could do branch out in different areas yeah why not the times probably need some more pods doesn't it can I ask you about the rugby though Joe because when you came back I guess we'll get on some Tigers things in a sec but when you were coming back from the Argentina thing what did you feel about where England were and like how that whole summer went because it was a bit of a mad one wasn't it with three continents three weeks I mean the travel Football was nuts.

10:54That was the first thing that kind of caught us a little bit off guard. We did a lot of travel. But no, I think it was a tough start. You know, you go and play at Ellis Park, not Eden Park, Ellis Park, in Johannesburg. And that was a proper tough test. And I was really proud of the way the team kind of caught themselves back up in terms of we played a really good game up in Liverpool. And then obviously it was like a hostile week away in Argentina. So I was genuinely very optimistic and quite proud of the boys for actually digging into what was a really rough start to the summer tour. And the Argentina week was great.

11:27There was a lot of other external things going on outside of the rugby. Yeah, the football. And it was, yeah, I was very proud of the boys. How much did you find the football played into things? It was really funny because Will and Alex were out there. I was back home and you guys were sending back pods and obviously got to watch the semi-final in Argentina. And you guys were on a bit of a high of like, what an amazing experience watching it there. and I was just like everyone else at home, absolutely raging. They were going on a bit. But it seemed like it really did play into the game as well.

11:54I'd never seen anything like it. Do you know what I mean? Obviously we had that, our hotel was just outside of the, they had the big obelisk outside and that's where everyone congregates after Argentina win a game. It was honestly more than a million people on the streets. Fireworks. It was wild, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. It was ridiculous. And that was like, oh my God, this is like, this is massive. And then it obviously then started feeding into the game, obviously on social media and all those things going, right, okay. The lads didn't win at football, so they're going to win at the rugby and all those kind of things.

12:21So there was a lot of eyes on us, I think we felt a little bit. Yeah, and Pollock calmed it all down as well, didn't he? Oh, that bus trip was just ridiculous. I was just turning my head and seeing what he was doing. I was like, there's no chance. Waving at people at the bus. No one saw it. And then we get back on, it's on TikTok. And I'm like, oh my God, it's on TikTok. Five minutes since I got back to the hotel. Yeah, yeah. That was good fun. I remember you've talked well before, Joe, about your kind of quite a long journey with England amazingly last year you were the England Player of the Year weren't you you voted as that but you've spoken well before about how it's taking you a long time to feel like you've belonged in that environment do you finally feel that you've definitely deserved the accolades you've got but do you feel like that's been a very long journey to sort of feeling like it's the big satisfying thing that should feel like the pinnacle of your career and everything yeah it does really it's a tough question really it was a long old journey of kind of being in when when eddie was was head coach and playing a bit but not really feeling i belonged i probably felt like i was quite immature to be there in terms of a rugby player and then it was quite difficult it was you know there's two years of three years i'm not playing and it was like well i'm just you know i really want to play for england i'm just going to stick at it so it was a lot of stuff like am i comfortable in myself that was the first thing and if i'm comfortable in myself and i'm comfortable in any environment and that's kind of what it came down to really just kind of finding who i was as a person really i spoke about it in other other sort of you know media outlets whatever but about how important it is just to be yourself and that allows you wherever whatever environment you're in to be fully comfortable in expressing who you are so yeah and is that the some of the things that you've done because it started on england rugby's own channels didn't it the sort of historical yeah yeah well that's your own is that part of it you're sort of happy in your own skin doing that therefore your rugby's good no i mean this has been brilliant for me i think that the history thing it's just it's allowing other people to see you know something I'm so passionate for obviously rugby is something I'm so passionate about but it's just another sort of layer that a lot of people don't see now and you look at a lot of rugby players and social media there's all sorts going on now isn't there you're seeing all sorts of layers of these other players but I think that was a big one really opening up to something I'm passionate about and seeing people love it I was like okay that's you know that's really special to me and yeah it's a one hope this won't be what your one hope but as a jokey thing that people don't confuse you for Marla.

14:42What's happened before? As Princess Anne says, I loved you on Traitors or something. No, she was awfully funny on TV and I was like, I've not been on TV and I'm rarely funny. I'm my own media mogul. No, I know. Yeah, but I couldn't correct her. You know what I mean? No, it wasn't the time. I was like, who am I? We had to go play a game as well. I can't go, well, actually. Sorry, can you just wait there a second? Yeah, that was funny. And in terms of like your sort of propping and scrummaging craft, people sort of stereotypically say it does take props maybe even particularly tight heads to to get there yeah you're not the finished article at 2021 how has that manifested for you and maybe what has changed in your game in the last two or three years that makes you feel really comfortable in your role there yeah I think when I was younger it was all about doing everything and it was like all right okay I'm going to be a big ball carrier I'm going to be a big tackler I'm going to be the best scrummager I'm going to be the best line-up mauler defender attacker and it actually just boiled down to like what three things do I want to go after and that was sort of my I want to get really good at scrummaging I want to get really good at tackling and I just want to be able to run and do that as much as the coach wants me on the pitch and that's something I've really gone after and if I boiled it down and simplified it for me I like things very simple I'll just go and do them and I feel like in terms of the running around the hitting stuff I feel like I'm in a good spot with that but like you know scrummaging you know you can have a good day he can have an absolutely awful day it swings and roundabouts a lot so it is constantly just looking for improvement there really And what about the stuff that you're doing this week particularly because it's a big one isn't it as ever when Saints come round, it's a stereotype to say or a cliche to say the mood changes a bit but because of maybe the last two games you have between the sides like the amazing one at home and then the semi-final there's a lot of nice spice there isn't there?

16:41Nice niggles, things you want with a Derby week. No I mean look that game we played at home was you know I played some good games that year we beat the All Blacks at Allianz and all those ones but like that is like you know if you asked me a game from last season that stays with me and yeah it's just the emotion, it's the passion and it's not just from us, it's from them as well and it's a rarity in rugby now you get something like that and yeah I love it I really embrace it obviously the people in my village you know they're revved up as well they're always kind of just giving me a good nod or a wink you know this is the week are they all tigers because people can be a bit split around this way well I'm in North Leicester so the county boundaries rarely cross but you'll get a bit of that down in like Market Harbour and stuff but no there's I'm a tigers village yeah it's a big tigers village nice that must be quite fun though because we always say don't we Will with Derby Weekend that some of them are bigger derbies than others whereas Leicester Northampton that is still a proper proper derby yeah I mean look it's rooted in the very bedrock of the villages the society you know it does it is a real thing and you know you speak to some people I mean look I'm from Nottingham I didn't know Tigers existed until I was 15 or 14 but you know I came down here and straight away it was like you know we don't like your neighbours all those kind of things but then actually getting to know where I'm living all these kind of places that people I meet and on the streets you know it is it's a real passion for Tiger supporters.

18:05Something you can't manufacture, isn't it? Not really. It's like it's there or it's not. Yeah. It's cool. We're talking to Oli Chessam afterwards and he spoke really well after that home derby about not to manufacture it, but that natural spice and niggle is kind of what we all want, isn't it? Particularly up front and particularly maybe when it's Tiger Saints. We should kind of try and embrace some of that because there was a fair bit of feistiness in the home game particularly wasn't it but it was all legal it was all good natured and fun it's all pushing and shoving it's all emotions hot heads and those kind of things you know it's a good thing you know that game was it was you know I'm not talking about one game now but you know it was it was a real good spectacle do you think Pollock's going to turn up with like I hate tigers in his hair it would be good when Joe Marler had sausage inside of his hair I could imagine you know something similar he's got like Eddie Hearns got him a like tiger and just crossed it I'll see what I can do with my hair there's only a couple of strands you could braid your beard or something I could do yeah yeah might do probably won't just manage expectations yeah yeah just manage well so I've got I'm going to say this is going to be really fun Joe and you can say at the end that it wasn't but I've actually to combine your loves of history and Leicester Tigers I've got a quiz and I reckon Alfie you can play along if you want is it a history of Leicester Tigers quiz it's sort of both It's sort of Tigers derby and your own experience of all those things.

19:36So, are you ready? So ready. You're going to do better than me, Adrian. This is going to be so fun. I'm ready. That's what you wanted. Yeah, please show more in 2005. Right, so question one. Leicester played Northampton the first time on November 6th, 1880. It was their third ever match. What was the score? That's the question, isn't it? Yeah, it was. Right, 5-3. No, Alfie? John, who's the media manager sitting next to us, got this right earlier. Did he really? I think it's quite a niche score. Incredibly. But the scoring was different then, right? As well. So, I don't know, 6-4. 0-0. So their first fixture was 0-0 as well.

20:14Yes, exactly. That's not on the quiz, it's an extra one. Mosley. Mosley. Yeah. We were in this very room last week doing the History of Lesser Tigers podcast. So I'm quite freshened up on this. I've got a bit of a disadvantage here. So you might know this next one then. And that same day, 1880, what colour was the tiger's shirt? Or the Leicester shirt, sorry. They weren't tigers necessarily. Yeah. It was black. It was black. Yeah. Do you know the next bit? The crest of a wyvern, a mythical winged serpentine, atop a zinc foil flower crest position in the centre of the shirt, apparently. I didn't know that.

20:49No, I didn't know. I'd be surprised if you rattled all that. No, they had a nickname because they were all black. They were called the Death or Glory Boys. Yes, they were. Yeah, yeah. Well, that was their nickname? At the time, yeah. Because tigers, there wasn't a thing. It's quite long, isn't it? Yeah, I quite like that. It also sounds like a motorcycle gang, doesn't it, really? Hells Angels, yeah. Yeah. Like in studs on the back of a jacket. So where was that game played? Regular in these days for Leicester home games. The first ever Northampton-Leicester match. Hosted by Leicester. Mandela Park.

21:20Belgrade Road. No, it was a cricket ground. Belgrade Cricket. Cycle and Cricket Ground. Yeah. Okay, so you're doing all right. Damn, yeah. Right, so in the history of the derby, there have been 285 matches between the sides who has one more? Tigers and would you it's you probably I'm going to give you within like 10 here but how many wins do you think? out of 285? 285 games played I would say 185 Alfie? 160 148 isn't that too bad? okay right Saints 96 41 draws which feels quite heavy yeah no I haven't drew one of them right Prem era since 97-8 there have been 61 derbies Tigers have won 38 Saints 21 with 2 draws what is the highest score Tigers have reached in those games and when was it?

22:08as in most points scored was it 50 points 2022 3 Alfie are you going to I'll go with that Joe has the benefit of playing in this game that was specific enough that I feel like let's go with that one guttingly he played in it and he's wrong I'm wrong on two fronts it was 55-26 at Franklin's Gardens 2022 okay sorry 2021 October 2021 you said 2022 you came on for Dan Cole 15 minutes last 15 minutes okay how many semis and finals have been played between the sides nine six that's a quick answer do you know that or no five semi-final 26 semi-final 22 semi-final 14 final 13 semi-final 11 lastly what's your own record against Saints all comps so there's a couple of Prem Cups in there percentages well you might know how many games you've played or wins or whatever but can I give you a percentage you can just work it out oh okay I can do some maths here then can you tell us how many games how many games 13 13 13 games I think I've lost 6 I was going to say 7 7-6 Seven wins, six defeats.

23:26Good, seven to six is a good... You said percentage, so what percentage do you think you're knocking on? Well, this is now math quiz, isn't it? How did you do this to rate? I would say 47. No, so that would mean you'd lost more than you'd won, yeah. So you've won eight, lost five. Oh, I was right with five, though, wasn't I? You said six. I said six. So you've got a 61 % win rate. And interestingly, you won your first game, then you lost four in a row, and then you won seven in a row and then you lost the last one. The semis. The semis. Yeah. That was the first game. I remember that one. That was my second game, I think.

24:01Yeah. That was the Rob Horn. Oh, gosh. Okay. I mean, that's the other thing about some of these derbies that they wrap in more than just rugby, don't they? That was a horrible incident. Yeah, well, this was the testimony he did. Right. The year after, I think. Of course. Yeah, yeah. So how do we think he did all right there? Well, I think we quickly established that I was absolutely no use whatsoever. I forgot you were here. I left it to the expert. And that was the quiz brought to you by Wikipedia. Well, no, not necessarily. Oval Insights was some of those stats. Okay, nice. Yeah, good. And the Tigers' own website actually helped me with some of it.

24:36Well, there's a good use of your time on the train, Will. I think we'll say that. Shall we let Joe go? And we've got Ollie Chesson coming in next week. Joe, all the best this weekend. Thank you very much. Thanks for joining us. Cheers. Thanks, Joe.

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26:43So Joe Hayes departs in steps. Oli Chesson, good to see you, Oli. How are you? Yeah, very good, thank you. How are you? Yeah, we're very well, thank you. So Joe, as he left, this might be totally false, but he said, oh, Ollie's grumpy today. Is it Darby late grumps? No, we just had a bit of a, not a rude awakening, but a bit of a kick up the backside from the weekend. And so it was pretty important for us as a leadership group, Hazy's one of them, that we, you know, just sort of, we're pretty blunt in some of the stuff that we saw at the weekend that for us as a team as a group isn't acceptable we thought we'd move past that but clearly not so yeah I probably did come across come across slightly grumpy this morning but all with good intentions I hope.

27:30Sometimes that's needed though right actually reminded me where we went up and chatted to sale before the start of the season and Courtney was saying wasn't he that actually one of the interesting things up here is how much boys get into it in training and going at each other in that sort of way which he hadn't necessarily seen before but sometimes I'm not saying that you've done that in training but you know I mean that sometimes there's a place for kind of yeah a little bit of edge and what I think if there's some good stuff great point it out um and for us at the weekend for example there was for 20 minutes and then beyond that there wasn't a lot so um nature of it being that that means probably not going to be all singing or dancing do you know what I mean so um and there's times when you win when there's still elements of that of course but yeah we um yeah we just had a very firm team meeting this morning and it was it was good it was yeah nice do you have to pick and choose when you when when you highlight those things yeah it's something I've probably been really conscious of as a is a leader is I think for me my personality I'm very quick to pick up faults and where when we're not quite where we want to be as opposed to praise the good stuff so there's two ways of looking at it obviously for me I've got to try and balance that out individually but also like within the leadership group hence you know hazy comes out of here and says i'm quite grumpy because hazy probably isn't on that side of the fence he probably he'd probably be quick to praise the good before and so making sure we have a balance of that as well in the leadership group which is um has been really good this year how i guess from us on the outside it looks quite natural for you to get into this leadership role that you've gotten out tigers how's it felt for you because i'm guessing there's been a lot of work internally for you personally to get to that position because it's as you well know it's a big club to lead if that makes sense isn't it yeah it's funny now because by the way i'm not trying to allude that i'm one of the old boys but like i'm 26 now so we've got a lot of lads in the room now that were born like 2007 my younger brother being one of them 2008 so a lot of 18 year old lads and you're like oh my god they don't speak and you think back to when i was 18 19 freshman year i wouldn't say i didn't say a word for three months i think genji came up to me once in the gym it was like are you always this weird I went why what do you mean he went you've been here for like two months you've not said a word and I was like yeah fair enough so you start off coming in and obviously you're so nervous you're surrounded by I certainly was I was surrounded by all these blokes that I've watched on TV for years watching the stands so you feel so nervous to talk and then something that Steve Borthwick was great at with us when we were here was like a emerging leaders group and he was really conscious of getting his young boys up in front of the group and speaking in a team meeting and even that you You get a nod in the morning to go and stand at the front of a team meeting and my backside nearly fell out.

30:06So I'd be like, do you know what I mean? I've got to stand up and present to Dan Cole, Tom Young, George Ford and Genji. They don't need to hear from me sort of thing. And then eventually you start calling the line out and that was a big transition for me. The year I started calling the line out, Brett Deacon sat me down and was like, you need to make this your line out. If you're calling it, you've got to feel comfortable. So then you end up, every week at the start of the week, you'll have had one today, you're presenting to the forward pack the line-up plan for the week you're leading a walk through you're you're instructing that it's you know 15 minutes where you know people it's your voice you're commanding it you're you know sort of setting the standard and that was a big step up for me and then julian montoya was very conscious obviously towards the end of his tenure here he was obviously knew he was leaving he he was very keen on like the likes of me jvp having more of an influence in team meetings i was speaking a lot not in the change room before the game but we'd have a huddle in the warm at four games he'd give me that responsibility so that I got comfortable doing that and then obviously when Czech was here I had a couple of opportunities to captain the side.

31:09That obviously must mean a lot to you because this is your kind of local club you have stood on the terrace which is probably traditional for lots of captains in the past but it's not always the way that you're like the homegrown boy that then becomes the captain so that must be extra special particularly in a week like this where it means so much to everyone around this area yeah no very very special like I speak about it a lot but mum mum still sits in the same seats that we had when I was you know just a fan watching with with my brother and then it's even more special now all three of us brothers are here at the club yeah Dylan's just joined Dylan's just joined so you know it's we've got a real strong connection to this place so yeah it's hugely proud I remember when Cech Cech gave me the nod it was extra away last year not last year before when Czech was here obviously and he said first game this yeah Julian was out injured I can't remember with what but Julian was out injured and he said I'd like you to captain the team and I remember like straight in the car I was just as I was leaving he told me and straight on the phone to mum and my brothers and I remember that clear as day and yeah it is so special it's never lost on me really how big of a responsibility but how big of a privilege it is to captain here And away from maybe the rugby bits and the line-out bits that you lead on, what other things do you get involved with with the wider club?

32:32Because I think I've read before that you sometimes have had meetings with Andrea Pinchin, the CEO, about big picture stuff as well. Is that sort of a casual part of your role rather than a really big formal thing? It's something that I'd really like to sort of credit Andrea with really and Jeff is, I don't know, and this is from personal experience, I think sometimes rugby players can feel disconnected from the guys at the top, right? We're fortunate enough to have our own training ground, right? So all the offices and everything are at the stadium. We're obviously here at Oval Park. We don't get to see a lot of what goes on behind the scenes.

33:12And so often decisions and stuff happen here that we don't really get to see or even know that's happening. So Jeff was really sort of big on it in terms of us leaders sort of being able to have that bridge between the squad and the likes of Andrea and the board. And just sort of get our points across. They are able to sort of update us with certain things that might be going on here, developments here, things in the academy, you know, all that kind of stuff. Not stepping out of our lane, but I think it's good that we feel like life. I think I feel I certainly can but I think a lot of the odds here would feel they could they could get on the phone and give Andrew a buzz and she'd give them a straight honest answer I think that's really really important like I said I think sometimes players can feel a bit disconnected from from the top and at the end of the day we're all we're all pulling in the same direction we're all aiming for the same thing we've just got different roles within the bigger picture Have you got an example of something that there might not be one yet but something that you guys have suggested or have come from the team that's actually happened that are top level I don't know whether you would get involved in let's say like marketing certain games or Tigers never struggle to get a crowd but you know what I mean like getting people through the door every week there's little bits John's obviously here but like that was a thing like I think for me it's not a massive concern I think first things first like the rugby is what matters right but obviously the game you can see the way the game's shifting and you know Saracens and the way they kind of took the social media you know sort of one way last year they've kind of continued it this year and I think a lot of our lads they've got an interest in pursuing that people that you wouldn't always assume Hazy being one you wouldn't assume he's got a you know having known Hazy for so long it was such a surprise that now if someone told me five years ago Hazy would be doing his own channel on history and stuff but lads have clearly got a passion for that kind of stuff outside the game so there was interest on that there's other things like this place these buildings have changed even in my time here but from the outside in this place doesn't look like it's changed in a in a long time and so we're keen as a group to make this like an elite performance you know training center that's that's what this place should be i know the the brickwork and whatnot might not suggest it but what's in it can can be operating to to the highest level so we've had some little influence and stuff that's in the building stuff that's being brought in now like recovery and recovery center and stuff like that there are all sorts of stuff's being put in.

35:35So yeah, just not massive things. And I think you can step - But they're important to you day to day, yeah. I think like Jeff, I said it to Jeff as well when we had these conversations. He's like, you've got to be careful. I was like, I'll be careful. I'll stay in my lane. But if I feel like we want to raise something, then as a group we will. And if you think it's terrible, tell us. But at least we feel like we've got the ability to say it. And it's been really good. You're not suddenly ringing her up being like, I really think we should just partner with Lamborghini and just get her on a car.

36:02That was pretty brilliant. There was something actually a couple of years ago. There was a Lamborghini Leicester garage. Genuinely. Probably having a partnership here. Yeah, some of the lads ended up having a photo with the, they brought them in and then lads were able to go out on test drives. It was weird. I was going to say, everyone was probably lining up for that gig, weren't they? I mean, yeah. I don't, you don't necessarily always have to lean into the history, but what would Jono make of the weight of the car? That's sort of like, come on. not very tigers yeah when you say with with the the the history stuff for example is that a thing that is rugby changing or has Leicester changed so I remember Ellis Genge spoke about when he first joined Leicester it was absolutely what he needed at that moment in time but it was almost that kind of older school approach I suppose and that's different now is that a thing do you think broader across the game or within the club more specifically I think a bit of both probably and rugby certainly has changed and that's probably had an influence on every club really and how I think there is a DNA to this place that I don't think will ever change and it shouldn't change and it's what's produced some of the best players in the world.

37:12Like you say, it's what Genji needed and the characters that this kind of place moulds naturally, I think that will always be the same and that's the same for the playing group and the people that are working behind. We've got people here Jay Pancholi Rob Morris and Fiona Morris Teresa Carrington like those kind of people have been if they've been here for 30 years like it's not just a playing squad thing it's a it's the staff that it's ingrained in this place but there certainly has been some change I think Coley for one like you wouldn't have seen Darren Garforth creating up a rugby podcast but you know as much as Coley wouldn't like it Coley's gone into that kind of stuff do you know what I mean and now Hazy has and there's all sorts of different characters and my generation will be completely different to Genji's generation and Genji's generation completely different to Dan Cole Tom Young's those kind of guys there's always change but I think at the very heart of this place Leicester will always be Leicester for as long as there's Leicester people in the building and right now we've got plenty of those so this place obviously has changed and Hazy will say I think he's probably felt like he can be a bit more himself but I think also that comes with the fact that But, you know, that comes with time and experience.

38:23And Hayes is now one of the more experienced guys. He's been through that, you know, he's been through that Leicester mould. He's got a bit of that. But now he feels he's able to express himself within that as well, which is great. We want lads to come here and feel they can be themselves and bring the absolute best of themselves on the pitch. And then on the pitch, we will look like Leicester. We will bring Leicester's DNA to that. And just maybe on that point, in terms of Leicester's DNA, where does Northampton fit into that? Yeah, well, some would argue probably years ago, polar opposites for sure.

38:59In terms of looking at the Saints team now and compare, I think people's perception of Leicester is this, you know, scrumble and kick the G off it. But we've changed a little bit. I think you can see that for the last couple of years. Certainly with the likes of Surly coming in, Landy at 12, Wandi at 13, I think Freddie's been pretty open in how he's really trying to change his attacking game at full-back. He's renowned across the world for his ability under the high ball. But we've certainly changed in that way. But again, scrum ball, set-piece, line-out, that will always be at the heart of what we do and the physicality and the collision side of things.

39:39so yeah it's you know it's a I don't know how to I don't know if there's a phrase for it but they are yeah they're very much melding the old with the new I guess yeah I suppose the game itself is very very attacking as we saw in that Saints past game well that's what I mean yeah and Saints have probably been certainly the Premiership been at the the spearhead of that really a couple of years ago they really started to sort of change the way teams attacked so yeah it'll be interesting at the weekend obviously like I say we'll always have our roots to go back to but I think you've seen in the last few.

40:10It's not a clash of two different styles. There's definitely a bit more of a blend from both teams now. What have you made as someone who plays Test Rugby and Prem Rugby about the high scoring we've had? I know it was slightly different in Europe, but particularly maybe that Saints-Bath game was one that was put up as, wow, that's a lot of points that we didn't see in years gone by. And do you think some of it is transferable to Test Rugby? Some of those England scores have been quite large, haven't they, in some of those games you've played recently? Yeah. Personally, alluding back to how I said, I'm always quick to pick out the negatives.

40:46It probably doesn't sit as well with me as it probably does with others. Hence the weekend score. If you lose anywhere, you're going to be gutted. But to concede 41 points that we concede at the weekend, that hurts you inside. And so I think even if you're winning games but you're still conceding 41 points. I think there'd still be a sour taste in a lot of the mouths in a certain hour meeting room. So I don't know. I think it's great. I think in terms of teams wanting to go and score tries, it's what people want to see. But people want to see a bit of collision, right? That's what rugby's... That's our unique selling point.

41:25You don't get that without defending. And, you know, if everything's first phase scores off of set piece and strikes, whilst that looks great to watch, I think you're missing out on the other half of the game we've got Oli Cracknell here who speaks so passionately every week about defence obviously we didn't get it right at the weekend so it's easy for me to sit here and say it's not as easy to go and do especially like say with the calibre of the players we've got in the Premiership now and how they do attack with the ball it is hard, it's definitely getting harder but defence is certainly at the forefront of our minds as well Is it slightly easier going back to the sort of historical Leicester thing of if you wanted to make one of your big pillars defense here that would be very accepted on the Crumbie Terrace and stuff like whereas it may be at other clubs like just picking Harlequins as an example for they're known as an attacking team so therefore people who go there want to see that every week whereas with Tigers it's like they respect and they'll have always valued the tougher stuff maybe so it's an easy sell for fans you're not saying we want to chuck the ball around so that you come and watch us, if you know what I mean.

42:29Yeah, I think, look, the fans, of course they want to see you play this brilliant style of rugby, but I mean, they might tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure they'd much rather come here and see us get a five-point win every weekend and win well or, you know what I mean? So I don't want that to come at the expense of, you know, what's really, you know, what's the focus is. We want to ring rugby matches, we want to win trophies. And a lot of us sat in a room here with Kev Sinfield as our defence coach a few years ago and he said, like, defence wins trophies. It's something that he alludes to now with England a lot.

43:01Like, defence wins trophies. The best defensive teams have won World Cups. Bar one, I think. I can't remember. He'll have a go at me for forgetting that stat. But it's, you know, I think it's a hugely vital part of the game. It's not something that we just brush over here and it's like, right, oh, we can get into attack. Like, defence is one of the big pillars of our game, which is why, like, I keep going back to it. But the weekend, for example, was so disappointing because we let ourselves down in that area. But yeah, I can see what you mean by certain... Like Bristol have been, you know, probably, again, earmarked as one of those teams that plays great offload in attacking rugby.

43:37But then their set piece probably goes under the radar a little bit as well, I think. And they are kicking a bit more this year. And they're kicking a bit more. So, and we had a couple of years here where we hardly attacked at all. We just... But we won a trophy and we play good rugby. It doesn't mean that we weren't playing good rugby. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, that's people's opinion. Yeah, yeah. I'd love to get you on a couple of just Derby-specific ones. One thing we talked about with Joe was something actually you said about the one at home last year where you guys play really well and won, and that had a bit of nice spice to it.

44:13How fun is that to be involved in, particularly when you're on the winning side? And how important is that to retain in these weekends where we get these Derby fixtures, that that is a celebrated part of what we're all doing these weekends? Yeah, it's obviously, they want to stamp, you know, there's so much stuff that's been stamped out of the game and rightly so. But I think that kind of stuff, one adds to the spectacle for people watching. But for us as a player, that was one of the most enjoyable games I've ever played in. And like you say, it's easy for me to say we're on the winning side.

44:45But then when you go away to Northampton and the referees are being like, I don't want any scuffles. There was no foul play involved in any of those, but that is two sets of players playing in a fixture that clearly means so much. You look at the Saints team now, they've got a lot of academy players and the prospects or academy products in that team. Same with us. And so that is two teams going toe-to-toe in a game that matters to the fans, for one. You could see that shouldn't happen, but some bloke, I think, chucked a beer in. The fans are clearly... you know they're engaged we're engaged and that's just sometimes how it comes out so I think we don't want any foul play but for me that was what a derby game should look like there was a couple of cards do you know what I mean people speak about the Merseyside derby now don't they in football and they say it's gone there's no cards there's no goals that to me felt like a proper derby as did the semi-final away at their place It felt like a proper derby match.

45:47And I think if you were sat here with Finn or any of the boys from Northampton as well, regardless of the result, that would be the type of game they want to play in. It's something, Alfie, that maybe has gone out of football commentary and not denigrating any player welfare, but often in those derby games, it's like, right, the refs let him have his one, like his big, horrible, double-footed tackle. I don't know if there's an element of rugby where we can say, right, the first scuffle's all right, maybe the fifth one's too far. but that's yeah as long as no one's actually throwing homemakers yeah well that's the thing like I said there was no foul play and there's a point where it becomes too much and the refs will stamp it out but I think naturally in a game like that you are going to get a couple of those where it boils over a little bit too much but all part of the fun all part of it 100 % and obviously as they all are massive one this weekend close to the start of the season it feels like we said on Monday's pod it feels like a lot of people are kind of finding their feet and working out where they were so I guess it'll be quite informative in many ways for both yourselves and Northampton yeah I think the time for finding your feet is over and done with now with the nature of the if you want to sit and try and find your feet to round four round five when you've only got 18 rounds of the prem then you're going to get left behind pretty quickly so I think that's been done like we we weren't we weren't good enough round one but we've been building slowly they've obviously been a bit up and down as well so I think you'll get the best of both teams at the weekend.

47:15And yeah, we want to do ourselves proud, but more importantly, do the people in the stands proud as well. Well, Oli, we'll let you go, but wish you all the best and thanks for chatting to us. Thank you very much. So thank you to Oli Chessam and to Joe Hayes. Good chats with both of them there, Will. Yeah, both on good form, aren't they? Lots covered. And I think the thing that obviously always keeps coming up when you're coming up to Leicester Tigers in derby week is that it's going to be spice. It's going to be niggle. That's what we want. But we like a bit of that. And I said my jokey thing a couple of weeks ago, didn't I?

47:43Which I wasn't going to raise with Ollie Chesson about the purge week, the retro round where everyone's just allowed to punch each other and there's no sightings, which has come up in conversation over a couple of drinks on tours and things like that, but isn't obviously realistic. But the modern version of it is like, all's fair in love and war. Like, let's let the spice simmer. Let's let the pot boil through these games. And as you say, there are some slightly more unnatural derbies this weekend. like Newcastle sale for example. On that point though and if we run through it I think all of the games are quite fascinating this weekend.

48:19Yeah. So Friday night you've got Gloucester Bath Gloucester at home have had a brilliant start to the season. I mean that's a massive game I would say more for Bath because Bath have been disappointing this season. Yeah. They look a little bit lost as to what they're trying to do. They've got much less power than they used to because they don't have Van Vaken do toy and they're pick and go things not getting into rhythm. They were poor against Montpellier. Gloucester are clearly a lot better. And it's at Kingshome, where that place is bouncing a bit now. That's going to be a great game. I mean, that is a game where in previous years, you would have said, last couple of years, Bath should win that fairly easily, even though they're away from home.

48:57But it's unpredictable now. It's unpredictable. And even the other Friday night game, Newcastle sale, go on. I did my hot take on Bordeaux on the pod, which I'm going to shock you, some people have disagreed with on the internet. Who would have thought? But my one for this weekend is I've got a sneaky feeling in my Geordie Bournes that Newcastle are going to win that. Because Sale haven't started particularly well, have they? They haven't. And Sale, I'll take this personally and do the podcast equivalent of pinning it up on their dressing room wall. If you're listening, I'm very sorry. But Newcastle have looked a lot better than they have done in previous seasons.

49:31They can clearly score tries. Wade's hunting the record. He needs one to equal two to go past Chris Ashton. Very possible. If Sale do turn up and defend well and put them away, great for them because that's going to be a tougher and tougher place to go. But I've just seen Newcastle live a couple of times this season and thought they're closer than they've ever been to breaking through and properly competing, winning three or four or five games in this season. And I have a little feeling it could be Friday. Could well be. And that is another one of those games that over the last few years we'd have been saying, well, you go up to Newcastle, you're going to win, but maybe we're not 100 % sure.

50:10Less than Northampton, not that it needs a bigger billing, but I know Oli Chesson there said that if you're still trying to find your feet at this point in the season, then you're doing something wrong. I quite like that as an attitude because he is right, isn't he? Definitely. As Charlie said when we last were talking about the Prem a couple of weeks ago, sixth of the season's gone already. There's no waiting around these days. I know the season takes nine months to finish, but you've got to crack on. And I think this one, And maybe if we put them all in the same category, the Bristol-Exeter one particularly, really informative about where those sides are.

50:44Both of them, yeah. I feel like we're juries out on a lot of Prem teams at the moment, but I feel like then four rounds in, we go, right, we have a definitive view and a take on what are Bristol like now? Are Exeter kind of the Toulouse version or are they the version that have been a bit uncertain? and then I guess on Sunday Harlequin Saracens Saracens have already been promoting it with it's their derby it's their cup final kind of thing but Sarri's haven't but Sarri's have been massively unconvincing themselves in parts in parts they've come out away they were poor they've put Bristol away but I think the style of play they are playing has not necessarily I don't know come through fully and Quinns we've talked about in a lot at length yeah but they love this one and often Quinns can be terrible all season and win the Sarri's game.

51:33Which is what I've seen a lot of Quinns fans saying that this week, that they're at home, this will be the game that they do end up winning. But I agree, I've still got question marks over Sarri's. So I think running through all of those games, it's going to be really intriguing. It's quite a nice time to have Derby weekend, isn't it? Because, I don't know, the Europe thing always sort of passes people by a bit and maybe that's because it's on a different channel and you don't watch it in the pubs because it's not on in lots of pubs and things like that. But four weekends in, or four rounds in, just before the autumn derby weekend it's a weekend to stand up and be counted isn't it and you want to make sure to find out what your club is actually like this year and also before any of the games could be dead rubbers later in the season you want to have it earlier don't you and we haven't seen any teams yet but I'd be amazed if there's any rotation any messing about with squads and stuff like that this is the one you've got to try and win isn't it every week 100 % do you know where you're going to be?

52:24I'm still tossing I said on Monday's pod I'm tossing up between Gloucester and Bristol I feel like the Gloucester one's now out because I'm finally trying to move house on Friday the long awaited house move so I reckon if I'm like fielding calls from the bank at King's Home that's probably not a great place to be is it so it may be that it's a sofa watching weekend moving boxes but or I might pop along to the Bristol one but that's where you're heading isn't it I'm going to get yeah as a punter as a yeah as actually are you going to do the Simba thing with your young kids maybe if they find us potentially if we're still there we're like are we going to be able to get through this full game let's see how if you end up on telly we'll know you've had a couple of thatches mate yeah exactly so yeah looking forward to that looking forward to the weekend thank you again to Leicester Tigers for having us up here really intriguing match that they've got at home against Northampton Saints Oli Chetam and Joe Hayes they were both great so Will I don't know if you will be but I'll be back on Monday and we'll be reviewing all the action lovely stuff can't wait to listen good stuff this has been The Ruck the rugby podcast from the Times and the Sunday Times

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