Did Scott Robertson 'lose the dressing room'?

0:00Blood donation is now more inclusive. More people are able to donate blood with the American Red Cross through FDA guidelines that eliminate eligibility questions based on sexual orientation. The Red Cross celebrates this historic change and welcomes those who may be newly eligible to donate blood. There's a place for everyone in the mission of the Red Cross. The Red Cross is committed to achieving an inclusive blood donation process that treats all potential donors with equality and respect while maintaining the safety of the blood supply. Join us and help save lives. To learn more and make your appointment to donate blood, visit redcrossblood.org slash LGBTQ.

0:39That's redcrossblood.org slash LGBTQ.

0:45Alfie: Today's episode of The Ruck is brought to you by Allianz. They've been part of the rugby family for over 13 years now, backing the game at every level from the muddy grassroots pitches to the biggest stages in the sport. And their partnership with the home of England rugby, Allianz Stadium, isn't just about putting a name on the building. It's about backing the future of the game and the generations still to come. We're proud to have them on board. Let's get into it.

1:25Alfie: Hello this is The Ruck the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times Alfie Reynolds here and we are back once again on a Monday for another episode back with Alex Lowe once again how you doing Alex? Yeah good thank you back I am back home from a day trip to Bristol to watch the reigning European champions convince me enough that they could easily be double European champions but a lot of that was down to bristol yeah good a good weekend of rugby for me i don't think it was brilliant overall but a couple good games weren't there yeah there are a few i mean it's the champions cup again so we'll try and cover all bases but also it raised some issues once again so we'll get on to that and returning this week is will kelleher will we missed you last week when you were on your way back from bordeaux good to have you back on hi was that only a week ago what's happened in january everything feels like it's on fast forward doesn't it?

2:16Alfie: Well it does a little bit I think particularly in the last week from a rugby news point of view because we thought that it would be kind of Champions Cup focused last 16 tee up in this pod and then that's totally been put to one side because massive news at the back end of last week from New Zealand Scott Robertson is gone. I know unbelievable I mean and look we'll get all into it but what a bomb that's gone off there in the coaching world and the merry-go-round that's going to start i mean man what a story and and we should as the journalist pod credit two cracking journalists and good mates of ours one who's coming on this pod liam napier who started the ball rolling about the player review being scathing and everything else and then our friend rory o 'connor from the irish independent amazing like scoop of the century almost to get scott robertson will be sacked by new zealand rugby and i found it funny just like seeing how people received that news on social media because there was almost like a national outcry from New Zealanders being like how's this broken in the Irish press can't believe it so we should have a massive salute to both those journalists because yeah both of them between them have broken the story of the year haven't they they have I listened to a pod that Rudd did which was titled how Rory O 'Connor broke the story and I was like I'm almost certain no in fact I am 100 % certain that he's not going to tell us how he wrote the story so i listened to it anyway and uh and he um and i'll probably ask liam the same question later because the process of all these things fascinates us as as journalists of of just how one bit of information can lead to another can lead to another but yeah um rud did an absolutely outstanding job um but as a bit of a spoiler if you listen to his pod um he doesn't he doesn't tell you who told him i did say to him i texted him and when because he was nervous and I was trying to follow it up the same night and he was like I'm not sure I'm gonna sleep now because I've got to wait for it to be confirmed I've been and then when I'd we'd heard that was it was happening I was like look I think you're safe mate and I was like just buy your sauce a massive hamper for next Christmas I've been in that we've both been in that position where like you're certain enough to run it because you wouldn't you'd never publish something or we certainly would never publish something and and rod would be the same that without being certain enough that it's correct because you hang yourself out to dry if you if you publish that scott robson has been sacked and he hasn't been your reputation takes a tanking it's your publication you have to be you have to be certain so you hit you hit send the desk publish it and then between that point and when it's confirmed that's when your head goes into a you start like second guessing yourself and rereading a message or re-listening to like replaying a conversation you've had going on that's definitely right it's just a natural thing you can you would never be you'd never publish it if you weren't certain and then the moment you publish it you start going oh what if what if and then the longer it takes for the confirmation and he had it i think it was 1am i've had one where it's doesn't come for 24 36 48 hours and the whole time because also things can things can change like it can be 100 % right when you write it um and then things can change and so I he said the same to me he's like I'm not sure I'm going to sleep tonight and I was like mate I know the feeling I know the feeling but he would never have published it if he wasn't sure enough and that's what you just need as a journalist that's the that's the game I guess that's the game lastly on this because we're doing this sort of navel-gazing journalism stuff to start the pod but we always joke with each other Alex don't we where when you're doing those team news stories which are not as significant at all as the All Blacks coaching job but there's always that barring a last minute change of heart sort of phrase that you have to use in the in the piece just in case that's sort of like expected to set to they're all sort of face-saving phrases that you use and then the headline just says George Ford will be the turn you go oh hope so but no So props to two cracking journalists on either side of the world, yeah.

6:30Alfie: Yeah, and let's get one of them on the pod now. And it is fascinating, this story, isn't it? Because as we'll get into it with Liam, but Scott Robertson's win percentage as an international head coach is really, really good. But at the same time, this was a New Zealand team that had had some really significant defeats as well. So where this New Zealand team is, where it leaves New Zealand rugby, what next for the All Blacks job is really fascinating. Let's speak to the man himself who threw the first snowball, I suppose, if we can call it that, the snowball effect that happened after this. But Liam Napier from the New Zealand Herald.

7:04Alfie: We'll have a chat with him about how this story unfolded and what next for the All Blacks. Well, Liam, thanks so much for joining us and thanks for finding the time on the other side of the world to make this work. I just wanted to start by asking you, what's the last week or I suppose just under a week been like for you? For us, it felt like out of nowhere, this news about Razor came, but what's it been like covering it? And what's been the reaction like in New Zealand? G'day, lads. Look, it's been a wild old ride. There's never a dull moment in New Zealand rugby, but I don't think anyone predicted or saw this news coming.

7:39At the back end of last year, there was a lot of noise and around discontent in the team. But to sack push-outs, the All Blacks head coach, two years into a four-year tenure is very unprecedented. So I think the nation stopped for a day and there's many people still trying to digest what's happened and query where to next. Liam, we all woke up here to your story saying that the feedback from the players had been pretty critical in this internal review, that Ardi Sarvea might not come back. And thus we've got the ball rolling and within 24 hours Scott Robertson have been sacked. as much as you can talk us through how all that all that happened because it's the off season for you right so what where were you how how did all of this come together yeah I guess it'd been bubbling away for probably since uh the Grand Slam tour and the All Blacks got home there was a lot of noise around unhappiness in the team queries about the culture and the coaching the selection just general themes that that team something wasn't right something wasn't working and that was prior to the review being done and I guess everything shuts down and goes quiet a bit over the Christmas New Year period and you know there are plenty of rumours flying around and then as you guys know you have reliable sources who come to you and tell you various things those sources start adding up and then you you get the ball rolling and then verify things and the picture became very clear that the review was scathing of where the All Blacks were at, that the vast majority of the senior players within that team, I think there was about 16 leading players that were canvassed in the internal review and the feedback was not good.

9:25So it was all coming to a hit. It was very loud and clear and black and white, the feedback, the review for New Zealand rugby and they clearly felt like this was their only way forward, that it was irreparable, that they couldn't solve the issues, that they couldn't be worked through. And ultimately, David Kirk, Kevin Mialamu and Don Tricker, who conducted the review, presented those findings to the board and they decided that Razor was no longer the man to lead the All Blacks. Liam, so many questions lead on from all of that. And as Alex rightly said, your story was the one that started this snowball rolling across the world, really.

10:05But when we tried to follow up the story ourselves, this end of the world, the one thing that New Zealand rugby and figures were inside it were really keen to suppress, I suppose, was this idea of a player revolt. How strong did you get the sense that it was that, i.e. the players have won a battle here? Yeah, I think the players weren't happy and that's come through loud and clear. I think there were some really strong messages from some senior players that they weren't happy with the coaching team and the culture and that they wanted major changes. And if that didn't come, they wouldn't be happy.

10:41That was some of the feedback consistently, not through one person, but various people that I received loud and clear. So I wouldn't say it was a revolt as such, but it was, you know, any team goes through a review at the end of the year. And the All Blacks have been through this in recent times with Ian Foster that during the depths of his tenure, Brad Moore and John Plumtree reviewed really poorly. On that occasion, they decided not to make changes. And then after the home series lost to Ireland, they were forced into it. So on this occasion, they've acted very swiftly, decisively, harshly in some people's mind.

11:14But they've certainly acted on that feedback.

11:17Alfie: Liam are you surprised by the fact that it is the culture around this team that it seems to have been such a sticking point you have a better understanding of this than us but I know a lot of our perception on this side of the world was Scott Robertson is the break dancing head coach winning super rugby titles his players love him the question in my mind certainly was tactically could he coach at international level but it seems to almost be actually that culture element that is such a big factor here so is that a surprise it is yeah and it's a great point because scott robertson was is such a unique character and had such success with the crusaders he was so good at theming campaigns that just didn't gel with the all blacks and we know test rugby is very different from super rugby it's a week-to-week campaign proposition as opposed to a season as such you know you're playing different teams every week there's much more pressure and expectations but yeah there was an expectation that Razor would bring him everyone with him bringing everyone together and it is surprising how quickly it unraveled too because two years ago he came into the role with such public goodwill such success behind him he was the chosen one from a long way out from a public opinion perspective but it just didn't work within the All Blacks and that culture was a massive factor in it not working and do you think is he someone that perhaps doesn't it doesn't translate for him what he does to international level you mentioned a couple of years ago when he came into the role I wasn't there in New Zealand but Alex and Will were and speaking to you guys boys one of the big things that struck me that you reported back was how nervous Scott Robertson seemed how uncomfortable he seemed and even the times we've seen them at Twickenham over the last few years in the post-match presser I've seen an element of that so Is he a guy that for whatever reason, just the kind of international set up, landscape, the spotlight on the All Blacks job, whatever it is, just doesn't suit him?

13:13Yeah, I think that nervousness was extremely evident, particularly in his first year and that opening test in Dunedin. And you've got to remember, there was a massive change that came with Scott Robertson. So much IP, the biggest coaching management overhaul in two decades. So he brought in a lot of new backroom staff, new players. And so there was a feeling that he needed a year to get his feet under the desk to a certain degree. But there just hasn't been that improvement and progression that you would expect. I think it was a 74, 76 % win record overall. But you drill down into that this year in particular.

13:49And it was a French B team that came out in July. The All Blacks struggled at times there. They had their first loss ever in Argentina. the heaviest defeat in history to the Springboks, the consistent third quarter fades. And then it was a really humbling loss to England at Twickenham. And I think things really unraveled after that as well. So from a results perspective, some countries around the world might say 74%, not too bad, but it was clear that something wasn't working, something wasn't right in that team. And I think the coaching team did lack international experience as well. and I think we've seen that being borne out.

14:28Do you know what, Alfie, you touched on our trip down to New Zealand in 24, that July series, and I just could never have shaken this image of Razor Robertson. This guy, as you say, Alfie, was the sort of chilled out surfer dude who had the players with him and everything else and couldn't have been a better club coach, like seven titles in a row with the Crusaders and everything else. And it was that first game, Alex, do you remember where England lost by a point in the Forsyth Bar in Dunedin and I remember we then went up to Auckland and as Liam knows the country loves its rugby and the New Zealand team and the all-black stuff is on telly all week and there was this about one minute or one minute 30 clip that was being replayed on TVs in bars all week of him really skittish like jumping about in the little perspex box that the coach is sitting for all the decisions that were marginal went his way or England's way the nervousness and you just thought on one hand you just go well look he's he's just a completely different guy to Ian Foster to Steve Hansen to Graham Henry and on the other hand you're like he doesn't exude any of this sort of like all black coach energy which is very like I'm in control rounded shoulders dour kind of I don't know dry wit that but it's just the character the guys that came before him but yeah that and the thing on that um win rate that Liam mentioned was fascinating so he's got far better sources in New Zealand than me but I was just desperately trying to follow up all these stories and having my own chats with certain people and one thing that seemed to come through was that which I didn't really realize but New Zealand's all-time win rate over their whole history of tests is 76 percent so they view that as their benchmark so going below that is no good and obviously ian foster did go below that himself but survived as liam alluded to in 22 they brought in joe schmidt didn't they so 74 i mean steve borthwick's tracking about 62 something like that and actually there's someone on social media who put out a list of the since razor joined the win rates of the other top coaches and he's second behind Razzi so from like the outside view you go wow that's harsh three defeats in the year but again talking to people it was the manner of the defeats and also the manner of the victory seemingly too like not dominant statements hence why David Kirk was talking about they couldn't see the trajectory so yeah fascinating because you just thought this guy was the chosen one to the manner born and it's not worked out and not worked out really quickly the other thing to consider that was a factor and this is just the way in which the coaching team operated.

17:05So Razor was this overarching helicopter type guy who did a lot of theming and prided himself on personal relationships but from what I understand and what other people have reported as well he didn't actually do a lot of hands-on coaching and a lot of the detail a lot of the strategy was delivered by Scott Hanson, his leading assistant. And that set up, that operation didn't function very well. So I think whether New Zealand rugby thought they were getting something that they didn't get, but the way in which that coaching team was operating didn't work. And I think we saw that with guys like Leon McDonald leaving and Jason Holland leaving.

17:48The All Blacks are a dream job for those guys, and they voluntarily exited. so that was a couple of big red flags long before this played out just thinking back to that 24 tour that will mention and we we had a briefing for the visiting media with razor i think to sort of introduce him to us and and i didn't know him i hadn't had any dealings with him really when he was with the crusaders a little bit when he came to coach the barbarians with ronogara and he'd been on the radar for for the england job um if things had played out differently with borthwick and if things are played differently in New Zealand, then he could easily have been up in this part of the world.

18:26And I felt the kind of the build, although the All Blacks did well at the World Cup, the kind of the whole thing around Foster and giving him the job, giving Ray to the job early was messy, wasn't it? It was sort of ugly. But I therefore had this impression in my head that we were going to get this guy who was going to come in and completely change the image of an All Blacks coach. As Will says, they'd had the boot room system, Henry to Hanson to Foster, to kind of cut from a similar cloth, same sense of humour, same style of leadership, I think, with their own elements. But there was a recognisable lineage there, and this was a real departure from it.

19:02And he was edgy and nervous. And I thought, and in that coaching, in the video of him in the coaching box, he's punching the wall because England came close to beating them in Dunedin. And I just thought, OK, well, I kind of felt, given the benefit of the doubt, it's the biggest job it's early he's only had 10 days with the team he's trying to get everything done really quickly and then all this time later in on the Grand Slam tour I've I found him that the same like similarly almost in awe of the of the role that he had and not quite on top of it and I don't know whether that's a fair assessment and it got me thinking of sort of the role of of in politics now like the prime minister it's so much of it now is about optics and messaging and how you carry a message how you convey what you're trying to achieve outwardly and he always struck me as a guy who was a bit in awe of the job that he had rather than being a guy who could own it and make it his own or is that just a perception from the other side of the world no i think that's a very fair assessment in terms of his ability to deliver like you say clear, concise, authoritative public messaging.

20:15And my assumption, I don't know, because I haven't been in the team room, I haven't heard him, you know, address the team in the changing room and these sorts of things. But I think there is a correlation between delivering those messages in a way that's easy to absorb, that resonates with people, that comes from a place of authority. And you're right, the previous All Black coaches certainly had that respect from the players and and had the ability to do that, even in times of real acute heightened pressure. And I don't think we saw that publicly from Razor, and I think that probably translated behind closed doors as well.

20:52And of course, we're now halfway through a World Cup campaign, if you like, that the four-year cycle, I guess it came to a point, did it, Liam, with the New Zealand Rugby Union where it was now or never. They didn't want to be in the position they were in with Foster a year out from the last World Cup where they're not sure what they want to do. They nearly sack him, they don't sack him. They bring in Joe Schmidt really to help guide the ship through that World Cup. And ultimately they come very close to winning the tournament. But it doesn't help, does it, if you're having to consider changes late on.

21:26Yeah, I think there's a few factors there. There's probably the midpoint in a cycle where you either cut and run or you dig in and stick with it. I think there was the clear factor that I feel like from everything I've heard that Razor had basically lost the dressing room and there was a feeling like he could not get that back. I also think that the big South African tour on the horizon, you know, if you don't get your house in order before then, you go to South Africa and play against the world champions in South Africa. It doesn't get any more daunting in world rugby than that at the moment.

21:58And if you're sending over a team for a six-week tour that's unhappy, that has issues, that's not on the same page, it could really implode badly. So I do feel like that was a big looming point on the horizon. Liam, I find that phrase that we all use quite widely, particularly when we're watching Premier League football in places like Chelsea and they change a manager all the time, that lost the dressing room thing. like again from an outside eye that just seems the sort of least all blacky thing ever that just doesn't seem a very new zealand rugby way to do things that essentially and look this might be quite reductive but it was a battle between what the players thought and what the coach was trying to do and the players have won because extrapolating that on a bit you're basically saying there that the players are bigger than the All Blacks, i.e.

22:48someone like Ardy Surveyor, who is a guy you mentioned in your piece as one of the senior players who was critical, if he were to leave, that's worse than the coach leaving. Can you talk to us a bit about that and that element of it? Because it all comes with it, doesn't it? This kind of like All Black culture that's so celebrated across the world. Yeah, look, I don't think every player in the team was against Razor. I think in every team you have disaffected figures, whether that be through selection or personality or whatever it is. But I think what we have here is the majority of senior players, guys that have been around for 100 plus tests, and they weren't happy with the level of coaching that they were receiving and everything around it.

23:30And then there's other factors that we've seen on the field as well that the issues we've touched on in terms of the results, the inconsistent performances, the inconsistencies within matches, the lack of progress, improvement. But I think we also live in an age where players are very influential and they do hold a lot of sway, whether that be in their branding pool or what they want. The modern athlete coming through has certain expectations and standards. It's not an era where players will just sit and listen to a dictatorial coach. which it's even in previous All Black regimes, which I don't think this coaching team got right, is the players have been empowered to speak about things, whether it be attack, defense.

24:14They present to the team on these, where the feedback that I've received is, particularly after a loss, Razor and his coaching team took more on themselves and tried to speak to the players rather than involving them in things. So I think there's a number of factors there, but there's no doubt that the feedback was loud and clear on this coaching team, and they clearly felt like they couldn't move forward. So in terms of that moving forward bit, we're all fascinated about two bits, I guess. Where on earth Rays is going next and who on earth is going to be the all-black head coach? I mean, Jamie Joseph is the name that is doing the rounds as the front runner, isn't it?

24:49And the fact that he's in the system at the Highlanders. But then we've had Razzie Erasmus putting out AI videos, Wolf of Wall Street style stuff saying, Tony Brown's not leaving. We'll leave the swear word out of it. But what's happening there, Liam? Yeah, well, I've heard definitively that Tony Brown will not be home before the 2027 World Cup, that he will see out that contract. So take Rusty at his word. He's having a bit of fun with it. Because it was huge they'd come as a package, wasn't it? Because they've coached together at Japan and Highlanders before. That's right. And I've also heard that Tony Brown, while they do have a longstanding relationship, I've heard that Tony Brown would be happy to work with any All Black coach, but that won't be prior to the next World Cup.

25:31So you've got Jamie Joseph. He applied for the role, ran for the role when Scott Robertson was appointed. It was basically a two-horse race between those two. You've got other people like Dave Rennie, who I rate really highly. He took the Chiefs to Super Rugby titles, Coach Glasgow. He's now in Coach the Wallabies. He was ousted by McLennan there for Eddie Jones, which was a complete train wreck. He's now in Kobe. Joe Schmidt is another guy who I think New Zealand Rugby would love to get home, potentially as a director of rugby he's finishing up with the Wallabies potentially in July I think Rugby Australia are pretty keen to keep him on in a consultancy role with Les Kiss Vern Cotter's coaching the Blues he's another guy of international experience so whether it's a mix of those people but it's going to be very interesting to see how that comes together and whether some of these people want the job because look it's pretty ruthless to cut someone with that sort of win percentage regardless of what's played out behind closed doors so maybe some of these coaches are looking at it thinking do I want a cushy gig in Japan easy money the All Blacks gig still very desirable as much as it's about the head coach it's probably also about what teams they can assemble because I think we've seen in the last few years with the All Blacks both with Ian Foster and with Scott Robertson they've probably been let down by some of their assistants as well surely they have to make a play for Joe Schmidt I mean And this feels like the perfect Joe Schmidt project, doesn't it?

26:56The impact he made with the All Blacks before the last World Cup. He knows players. He knows the setup. He understands the job. Whether he wants to be the front man as he is with the Wallabies, I actually would be surprised. But the crossover, I think he's contracted to the Wallabies till the end of the first section of the Nations Championship, so the end of July. So either they should get him before then or just put up with the fact they won't have Joe Schmidt on board for three tests. But this feels to me like a perfect Joe Schmidt project. Two years, a World Cup to plan for. A lot of the kind of tricky transition work has been done.

27:33It just feels to me like that has to be the first port of call. Maybe Joe doesn't want it, but can they go to Joe Schmidt and bring him back across? because for all the jobs that Joe Schmidt's had, it's always felt like it's the All Blacks is the one that he's been working towards this whole time. And this just feels like a Joe Schmidt project to me. For me, he's the perfect director of rugby and that would almost suit his lifestyle as well. You know, we know about his family situation and it would potentially allow him not to travel quite as much. But he could run everything from sitting over top of the All Blacks to the high performance, right down to talent development, coaching you know have a hand in everything and you're right he was I don't want to go as far to say as the savior but him and him and Jason Ryan had a huge impact in transforming that all black team that went to the World Cup final and we saw it with the Wallabies as well while they tailed off towards the end of the year last year and ran out of steam a wee bit they improved you know massively under Joe Schmidt's guidance going to South Africa having success over there standing up against the Lions running out of puff towards the end of the year but when he was with the All Blacks, the consistent feedback from senior players about his level of detail, his eye for analysis, his intense nature was widespread across the board.

28:52They loved him. So I think New Zealand rugby would be desperate to get him home and Rugby Australia will be desperate to keep him out of their clutches.

29:00Alfie: Well Liam, look, fascinating time, certainly a story that caught us off guard and we really appreciate you taking the time late in your evening over there in New zealand to to join us on the ruck so really appreciate it no worries lads anytime liam did you say you were camping when this broke i was i was yeah in a beautiful part of the world in coromandel and uh why he beach where a few well-known uh former coaches have uh lavish houses yeah we were saying before if people don't know why he beach is where warren gatlin's got his famous like seaside retreat so maybe you should knock on his door mate and say do you want do You fancy the All Blacks job?

29:39Yeah, he's probably after a job right now, isn't he? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Might have gone a bit beyond him, but there we go.

29:45Alfie: Liam, we'll let you get back to your holiday. Appreciate your time. Cheers, lads. Take it easy.

29:53Alfie: Just a quick breather to tell you about today's sponsor, Allianz, a partner that's all about opening rugby up to more people. Their support goes way beyond Allianz Stadium. Through the Allianz Future Fund, they've already put over£100 ,000 straight into community clubs across the UK, helping fund projects that bring new people into the game. And with the Allianz Kickstart programme now reaching 5 ,000 schools, thousands of kids are getting their first taste of rugby, some for the very first time. If your local club could do with a bit of a lift, check out the link in the show notes and nominate them for an Allianz Future Fund grant.

30:34Blood donation is now more inclusive. More people are able to donate blood with the American Red Cross through FDA guidelines that eliminate eligibility questions based on sexual orientation. The Red Cross celebrates this historic change and welcomes those who may be newly eligible to donate blood. There's a place for everyone in the mission of the Red Cross. The Red Cross is committed to achieving an inclusive blood donation process that treats all potential donors with equality and respect while maintaining the safety of the blood supply. Join us and help save lives. To learn more and make your appointment to donate blood, visit redcrossblood.org slash LGBTQ.

31:13That's redcrossblood.org slash LGBTQ.

31:18Alfie: The world's most exclusive brands are now at Fields. Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Lamborghini, and Bugatti. you're a superstar visit our two newest locations on rush street at pearson in chicago or on ogden avenue in downers grove you're celebrated every visit is personal from the newest members of the field auto group in the gold coast and downers grove visit us at fieldauto.com so really appreciate liam's time as we said kind of throughout lads it is a it's a fascinating story it's going to be really interesting to see how this develops and then will i suppose one of your follow-ups to to this has been how it might impact english domestic rugby yeah so i said at the top of our pod about the bomb that's gone off and if you think about clubs that were looking for a head coach or a director of rugby or something like that and we've all had their short lists and then suddenly Scott Robertson loses his job and everyone just scrumples up their bit of paper chucks it in the bin and starts again don't they um and yes as you alluded to there I followed up Rory and Liam's stuff early or middle of last week by saying that Harlequin's interested in chatting to Scott Robertson um look for all that's happened with him at the All Blacks he is an exceptionally good club coach as proven by his record with the Crusaders and look critics might say yes but he's only done it in his own backyard and with a team he used to play for so it'd be fascinating to see him do it and on the other side of the world with a different club but clearly if you're Harlequins and you're looking for a new coach you've got to pick up the phone to Robertson don't you and I think that it might not just be specific to Quinns but there'll be a few countries or club sides that go oh let's leave him for five minutes just make sure he's all right but I haven't ever had to do these things but if it were me I'd be like on the phone absolutely immediately do not delay because this guy is going to get a job very very quickly and the other guy that would have been on the Quinns list was Dave Rennie but now he's on the list probably for the all-black job as Liam said and he might not get it but it just it just throws this whole kind of coaching world into a tailspin doesn't it Alex and all these moving parts around the world yeah it does it doesn't necessarily mean that Scott Robertson would be the right man for Harlequins say like listening to Liam there about him being a sort of almost playing a the hands-off the Martin Johnson type role with with the All Blacks and it was the others who did the hands-on coaching and he set the environment well the the way that Quinns is set up at the moment they have a general manager to sort of oversee that and then they're looking for a head coach it may not actually work for them but if I'm Laurie Dalrymple and I am on the hunt for a head coach and I am under pressure despite the kind of miracle they produced in in Europe it's just good PR isn't it like you need to be seen to be targeting the best yeah I mean why wouldn't you and you're absolutely right why wouldn't you try to have a conversation with Scott Robertson why wouldn't you have a conversation with Dave Rennie because they are in that top tier of coaches and if you decide they're not the right person fine but make that decision after you've spoken to them not not before um and so i you know i think it's it's a no-brainer that the quins should be targeting those guys but i think the end of at the end of november we have mark palmer on talking about the gregor townsend situation at with scotland how secure is he in in that role you know i think the six nations will be pivotal and of course franco smith with glasgow who's doing an unbelievable job with them he's won the URC they look because of the way the draw is they look like they're in an absolutely outstanding position to make the final at least of the Champions Cup they're doing brilliantly he would be the obvious next Scotland coach so therefore do the Scottish Royal Union need to think that if this is likely do they need to contact Scott Robertson I don't see Dave Rennie going back to Glasgow but they need to make that phone call as well I think as you say that the ripple effect of this will be, and they're just two examples of organisations who will, at the very least, have got now something to think about.

35:42Whether they action it is different, but the ripple effect will spread across the game.

35:47Alfie: Yeah, I wonder whether Scott Robertson will take a bit of time himself to work out his next move, because it feels like a really big one for him in that he was the chilled out surfer, break dancing when they won titles, and then was an absolute bag of nerves. As we mentioned with Liam, an absolute bag of nerves as the New Zealand head coach. Does the leafy suburbs of southwest London and Quinns suit him? Does it suit him north of the border over here in up in Glasgow? Whatever it is, I just think it feels like a really big one for him in terms of his reputation as well. Speaking of Quinns, though, that maybe gets us on to pivot and start chatting about the Champions Cup because the final round of pool games, we have our last 16 ties.

36:27Alfie: and I mean Will Quinns were one of the stories on the final weekend aren't they one of the most maddening clubs it's possible to follow they ended up second in pool three they win away in La Rochelle and they blow the whole thing wide open yeah and look let's without dampening the joy of the Carlequins fans who made the trip or ones who are watching it from afar too much this is not the La Rochelle that won those titles against Leinster they are not as high up the top 14 as they usually have been. Ronan O 'Gara's been under a fair bit of pressure and this will heap so much more on him. The fact that they're now, they fail to qualify when it's harder to get knocked out than go through.

37:10Like that's extraordinary as a team that won a couple of titles so recently. So, I mean, O 'Gara's going to be on a highly to nothing for the press there and everything else. But parking that, what a great victory for Harlequins. Their defence was brilliant. and Marcus Smith managing the game, kicking his goals, pushing La Rochelle around the field. That was a proper strategic 10 performance as well. And yet they've kind of blown a fair bit open because not only have they knocked out La Rochelle, but they've pushed people into different seedings and everything else. And the funny element of it is that I saw, because Tigers had lost at the Stormers and had ended up in that fifth slot in their pool.

37:50So they were going into the Challenge Cup. and quite a lot of fans I saw going like oh that's all right we'll try and win that and then Quinns dump out La Rochelle which means that Tigers get hang on let's look Bordeaux away and you just go oh lads we would have quite liked a challenge cup runner now you've given us Bordeaux away well there's a few things there so like there is a maddling element to Quinns of going well why where was that like dominance that's the big game mindset of the big game which is your biggest highest profile domestic fixture in the year where you've got 65 000 people in the stadium a lot of them floating voters who might want to come back where where was that over christmas when you were tanking 40 50 points a game like but maybe it's the turnaround let's hope let's hope for their sake that the last couple of weeks will prove to be the turnaround for them and that maybe the pennies drop that someone like Charlie Cunningham South, who is developing a bit of a reputation as a flat-track bully, a guy who can deliver it in flashes, but maybe not when his team really needs it.

39:00Maybe the penny is dropping for some of these guys that they need to put, this is the standard now. Because if I was Quinns, if I was a Quinns fan, I'd be thinking this is the standard now. Now, it isn't the great La Rochelle of old, but they're a decent team. you're playing away there's the pride element of French teams when they play at home that has to be the minimum requirement now when Harlequin's they've won Prem game but when the run-in begins post Six Nations that has to be what these guys deliver because they're obviously capable of it so where was it?

39:34Alfie: Consistency's been an issue for Quinns for quite a while really Will on the subject of teams ending up in their seeding and looking at who they've got in the last 16 and thinking blimey really one of those would potentially be bristol who've had a really good pool stage and then because to lose haven't been quite as good as we've previously seen this year in the pool stage of the champions cup bristol get to lose away it's their best pool stage performance it's bristol's best pool stage performance and that's the very it's also they they don't just get to lose to start with because they get them away first and if they beat them they're probably going to play bordeaux in the quarterfinal away yeah you're right so they're on that they're on that brutal side of the draw and it's it's got shades of the 2023 Rugby World Cup in it really where Bordeaux and Toulouse are currently slated really to meet in the quarterfinal I mean what a blockbuster quarterfinal that is and then you've got Barth Saracens, Northampton, Castro so there's a really strong chance of an English team like landing a few blows because they'll meet but one of them will meet Bordeaux or Toulouse in the semis, you'd think.

40:42Bath's mission to add the European Cup to the domestic, the Prem title they won last year, will mean they have to get past, the likelihood is to get past Bordeaux or Toulouse just to make the final. Then on the other side, Glasgow and Leinster seem just miles ahead of the rest. Toulon are in that side. So you could have Glasgow, Toulon, quarterfinal, Leinster, Harlequins. Yeah. I mean it's it's so funny isn't it because for the first time in ages Leinster are not one of the one or two but they fall into the plum spot of three and actually I was looking at it because I was like naturally when you see that straight away you go how's that happened and obviously lots of people on social media go it's a fix it's a fix which obviously it's not a fix and I had a little look at it yesterday just to be like so how does that happen and actually we should remember this for future so coming third is almost the best almost the best spot to fall into because you play the sort of like six versus eleven lot if you beat 14 if that makes sense so we're looking at one to 16 in the rankings whereas if you finish first you play 16th to start with but then you play eight versus nine and so if someone has lost one game they're falling into that place which is where Toulouse have fallen into so yeah look you just sort of go like the one time they don't have a perfect pool stage they then draw Edinburgh who clearly don't want to be in this competition and we'll get on to them against Bath and then Harlequin's sale I mean look based on their domestic scenes at least you'd go neither of them should be really in a quarter final of the European Cup but we've just said Quinns are all credit to them have done well to get to that position and then on their sort of other side of the draw Glasgow the two seed against the Bulls the Bulls have snuck in with one win and like you can predict right now that they will not be sending a good team up to Glasgow for that game so that's a write-off and then Toulon Stormers Stormers as we've said a few times on this pod John Dobson their coach likes this tournament so might throw something at it but it's not going to be Sasha Feinberg and Goma Zulu and Kobus Reinach and all that because they're top of the URC and probably want to try and win that so Glasgow at this point look like they're walking to the quarters to face Toulon which would be a slobber knocker but it will be in Scotland and then they might if they go through that they might then meet Leinster in a semi-final I mean we always we will get on to some of the complaints again but when you look at it all and you go there's a potential that the quarters could be bordeaux to lose bath northampton glasgow toulon leinster quinz and then the semis you could have glasgow leinster and let's say just on seedings bordeaux bath like that that is a cracking weekend of rugby isn't it but we'll have to wait until may to get there it always is and before we started recording i was just talking liam through the the permutations and i just said It feels like we finally kind of got through.

43:49We've done all the hard work to get to the exciting bit. You know, all these fixtures every weekend. And there's often two or three that are really good. But there's a lot you have to wade through of teams who don't want to be there. We've rehearsed. We've had that conversation a million times. But then when you get, once you see the knockout brackets and you can start plotting who might meet who, there's a lot of excitement there. There's a lot of great rugby there. And there are some great round of 16 ties, some really interesting round of 16 ties. But definitely there'll be some absolutely belting quarterfinals.

44:25And Bordeaux to lose in the quarters. That could be a final in any other year.

44:29Alfie: Yeah, I feel so torn on the Champions Cup. We were messaging over the weekend in that I look at so many of those issues and the teams that have qualified with one win, the teams that you feel don't want to be there. you look at sale the way that they rotated no no injuries played a part to then have 70 put on them against to lose on the final week and there's so many issues yes eventually you do get to some incredible rugby but god we have to get through an awful lot beforehand before we we get to that point and i mean what do we know anything about this in terms of because everyone speaks about it don't they we speak about it all the time the champions cup needs to change can it move to a different point in the calendar can they trim it down in terms of the amount of teams that are taking part is there any news in regards to this so yes um there is and i'm writing about this today on monday um and i would say that the news is that there's no desire for change at all but why is that because they've changed so many times but like through covid and there are a lot of different iterations they've changed so many times that they want to keep it the same so people get used to it i think that sounds mad by the way but i'm just trying to rationalize why that would be the case yes so so yes one thing is that they've chopped and changed so much that they want the tournament to settle in to they the guys at the epcr are sort of on a hiding to nothing because in my view they don't they're not a very powerful organization they used to be when they were run by the unions and then now they're run by the clubs and the clubs are more interested in sorting out their own leagues their their view is and this is a direct quote the format is delivering and they they have a lots of data points that tell them this and they say it ticks a number of boxes their engagements on both the tv and particularly things like youtube and everything else have gone up a lot what we didn't clarify is what an engagement means i.e if someone is saying i think the champions cup is rubbish and i think they should sack the whole board does that count as an engagement or not but we'll leave that one um they were saying that this weekend in both comps there was only one dead rubber match across all of them and look again the caveat would be that's because so many people qualify that of course there's stuff to play for but i but i would agree that in the old heineken cup as much as we're misty-eyed and we thought we think that that was perfect and everything else you would get teams sacking that tournament off really early whereas at least with this format most matches had something riding on it on the weekend that we've just seen and the other things that are there are fascinating that i don't think are epcr's fault but clubs need to realize is that if you don't take europe seriously you are you've got no chance of going deep in it and winning it and they actually have some data that i thought was quite interesting that shows that the teams that use the most players go least far if that makes sense so the teams that win the tournament usually use about 31 to 32 something like that players in the whole competition whereas some teams last year used 55 and they go nowhere so kind of the the pricey version of that is take it seriously and you'll go deep and just just to finish off so that the competition format is locked now until 2030 but the thing that they do want to change which i can see having unintended negative consequences depending on how they do it is they want to start the pool stages in october so that it comes before the autumn test but the issue is they might not be able to do two rounds of pool so they might just go and have one stop it and then have another one in December then have two more in January which to me becomes even more disparate but at least on the record and being quoted on it they have to back their own product they can't just say yes it's a basket case and we want to completely start again but all of our funky ideas about 16 team tournaments reducing it playing at the end of the season all that stuff is just not on their radar at all it will not change this format's locked in for another four years but it won't change and they're saying because the Prem, to get down to 16 teams, the Prem would have to take a big hit, right?

48:49So eight out of 10 Prem teams. So are EPCR saying that's the Prem blocking it? Because it's very easy for them running their own competition to go, it's not our fault. I think that, and they wouldn't say this on the record, but I think that just reading between the lines, basically they've got eight from each, haven't they? And what they are hoping is that the Prem becomes 12 soon as we have talked about they want to franchise and add teams and therefore it looks more balanced but that's not happening until 2029 I know I know but I think unfortunately I think as much as we'd like to change it they don't have a desire to but the issue here is that as often people say to us everything's set in stone until it's not isn't it because as we've said the clubs control this competition and so if the executives at the Prem just say do you know what we agree and this is wrong and this actually is affecting our own competition because for example Harlequins in the league or Gloucester in the league can have a terrible season and qualify for the top competition we don't think that's good enough then it can change because they can go in and change it but the other thing I suppose is then you would be expanding the challenge cut because there's never going to be a point where someone in each of the leagues isn't in any European competition which I which is just because people want gate receipts and extra matches isn't it so yeah that that's that's as much as I can give you on on kind of their view of it and and I know that lots of people won't agree but yes they do they do believe on on many metrics the tournament is is delivering I think what's interesting one element that's interesting well is they back their tournament they say it's locked in and they say it's working and they cite a whole load of fairly vague metrics without providing any actual figures or numbers to back it and yet we're not alone in having this conversation about how it feels and how it looks and yeah there might have technically been something on Toulouse Sale but Sale send the second team so there's nothing on it anymore at the same point with with bath edinburgh so what i would be interested to know if they would tell us is if this structure is locked in for four years they need to they need to bridge the gap between what they think their metrics tell tell them and how everyone else perceives their competition because unless that changes unless they can find a way of changing the narrative around it and actually going out being proactive and going out and and trying to change people's minds then it's going to be the same conversation for the next four years of a competition that the perception from the outside is people who watch these games who'll be asked to buy tickets for these games and pay for subscriptions for tv coverage is that it's not really working and it's not really worth following that closely till the point we're going to get to now and i find it very i guess It's unsurprising that those in charge of the competition just go, yep, it's all fine.

51:54Everything's great. Our digital metrics say that our engagement levels are up, so therefore it's all working. And the conversations that you're having on the ground, the matches you're attending and the fans you're talking to, that's just like disruptive noise because everything's great. If it really is great, then why do people not think it's great? Yeah. Very quickly, two things, just two more stuff. that the one thing that they say consistently that is a metric that's gone up is crowd numbers. The other thing that they genuinely have made an effort on, and I would hope that that reduces even further, is in COVID they allowed player squads to be massive because people could have got pinged and they needed the ability to just get the games on.

52:37And so that's why I said that stat earlier. Some club used 55 players in previous seasons. So now this season you're only allowed to use 42, two but you are allowed those five additional players if you swap people in and out and look that's still quite a lot so you can rotate can't you but that's one thing that they have actively tried to do and I would encourage them to try and reduce that again for seasons coming down the line that your European squad has to be let's say 36 or something like that so you can't just swap your whole team in and out week to week but but if you do then you don't go deep in Europe and that's

53:13Alfie: your prerogative I would say I agree with you Alex and I think if people want to give numbers and data and and say that everything's rosy then that's fine but I think the reality is there are very few fans at the moment that are particularly enamored with this competition yeah people might still go on the weekend and go and fancy watching a game of rugby and having a beer and all that sort of thing but there is clearly a a disconnect with with this competition at the moment I think it's so obvious to so many people of what needs to happen now to be fair to ePCR it's probably a lot more difficult to make that happen than just saying it here on a podcast but that is make it more elite and sort out the scheduling so it's less stop start and that comes into the clubs like the top 14 the prem the urc all being willing to to sign up and move it but over the weekend when we were messaging i feel like i cracked it on our on our whatsapp easily which for me ideally it It would be four teams from the Prem, four from the top 14, four from the URC, three groups of four at the end of the season, so all the seasons would have to shift.

54:15Alfie: The top from each of those three pools goes through into a semi-final, and then the best second place side go through into a semi-final. Super elite, super short, super sharp. You can't rest and rotate because you'd have no chance of getting through. And you're not telling me that that wouldn't be a far more exciting product for both fans and for television, you know, TNT or Premier Sports or whatever it might be as well, which, OK, it's easy to say it on a pod, but when I wrote that out to you both, I was like, I've sussed it. I've sorted it out, lads. I should also add that they are so confident in the structure of their competition that they're willing to sacrifice the knockout stages of it for a Club World Cup when that comes in.

54:54I don't think you'd see the Champions League in football sacrificing their grand knockout games for the Club World Cup, just wouldn't happen because their product is too important. Just, I always find that off.

55:08Alfie: Yeah, yeah. Well, look, let's hope we get some great knockout games now that we're approaching that point. Certainly the quarterfinals onwards, I think, will be awesome. I still think, looking at the last 16, there are some really good matches. I think there are still probably a lot of matches that you could probably predict the result of. But then, of course, no one predicted Northampton to go to Dublin last year and win, or Quinns to Bordeaux, you know, before that. So let's wait and see. lads time is against us so we probably just need to round things off with Six Nations you always get into the turn of the new year and then all of a sudden Six Nations is upon you squads are going to be announced and on Friday Steve Borthwick is naming his England squad yeah it comes round very quickly every year and we say that every year as well if you said it at the start of the pod world but you're right January, England squad selection time pre-Six Nations camp time it's all on us already and we're going to get a whale squad as well there'll be others announcing we did a piece each Alex this last week didn't we John Westerby kicked us off with a midfield you did the back row I did the back three and we chose those as kind of the stacked areas I suppose with the most options um in the England team but actually one that we didn't do that is fascinating is tight head prop because yeah Will Stewart's snapped his Achilles we knew that but then Asher a poker four jaws out of pretty much all the Six Nations if not the whole thing with a shoulder injury and so albeit this would probably be for the third choice tighthead spot but that's a bit of an issue isn't it who would we think Trevor Davison ahead of that queue of Billy Seller at Bath perhaps and Afo for Zogman seems to be one on the rise but a little bit off it at the moment yeah I think that's where they're looking so you know you based on what happened in in the autumn Joe Hayes would start while Stuart would be on the bench or all the other way around with Asher as the third choice now two of the top three are gone so Joe Hayes I think has to start and then you're looking at yeah Trevor Davison Afofus Ogben who has had big moments in the Prem but hasn't featured in in England training camps which is an indication that he they don't quite trust him yet it's a consistency thing there isn't it yeah to deliver to deliver and billy seller is is another of the rising stars the former england under 20 he was part of the under 20 team with henry pollock and asher who won the the world cup um what two years ago and he's playing a bath more because will stewart is injured he could come in um they have huge expectations and and hope and confidence that he's going to be a hell of a player.

57:53Whether it's an interesting take from Borthwick, whether he goes with steady Trevor Davison, who he has worked with before, could probably trust to do a very solid set-piece job, or bring in the young gun. He could have both, though, couldn't he? With Hayes and then one Trev, one seller? Oh, yeah, yes, in the wider squad, yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking of the... But yeah, you mean for match days, yeah. part of me thinks he should go with the young gun. And I say that as much because of how England want to use their props as much as the development thing. I think they want mobile, fit, dynamic props who can get around the park a lot.

58:34And there's a certain sort of fitness level that England demand of their props, which some guys, as good as they are, just cannot physically get to that point. And I don't know about whether Trevor Davidson can't get to that point. I don't mean to speak disparagingly of him, but I think in terms of the development of the England team, Billy Seller is the guy. He's the next, he's the next kind of, from that next generation. And I'd like to see him get a shot, I think. Because this is the thing, Alex, like from how well they did in last calendar year and in the autumn, the rest of it feels very settled, very consistent, very kind of obvious.

59:11you could probably if you're Steve Borthwick and you've got his view you're probably writing down 30 odd names pretty quickly that are all going to be in there I don't think we're set for any shocks we're not expecting like an Owen Farrell to come from nowhere back into it it's just these injury things that are disrupting some plans the back three and the back row the ones that we wrote about that are stacked areas but maybe with one one or two different faces but we're not really expecting the actual team on the field to be massively different are we it's just gonna be interesting to with the bomb squad thing the pom squad thing as to whether like guy pepper and tom curry swap places for example isn't it yeah i think back row wise in terms of names who didn't play in november someone like emika ilioni could easily come in he was part of that squad initially and got injured i think i can see him being involved they like him they don't have tom well technically they do but there's no point picking tom willis so who's the who's the best sort of bustling physical ball carrier through traffic fizzler i was going to say it's ilioni or or the one who's made the biggest strides this season is greg fizzle another specialist number eight england don't don't really have a specialist eight they've got as i put sort of seven and a halves they've got they've got Earl and Pollock and Ileone who can play seven or eight so so I'd say Ileone and Fisilow would be the two who could come into the back row mix who didn't play in in November and then covering the the area that you wrote about Will it's a lot for me hinges on George Furbank's fitness because the look of the look of the back three and therefore the bench is very different if Furbank is at 15 compared to if Freddie Stewart continues at 15.

1:01:04Probably less different if they go with Daly at 15 instead of Furbank, but what Furbank would give you as 10 cover would allow you to do something different on the bench. So that, I'd say he's still picking from incredible strength in the back row. The back three, as you say, with Roebuck, Furbank's not been playing. there's um they've got options but those options are dependent more on player fitness well we'll

1:01:32Alfie: be unpicking and unpacking steve borthwick's six nations squad on next week's pod that's going to be named on friday and then before we know it'll be into the six nations and i suppose from an england point of view by a mile the most exciting six nations certainly like ahead of the tournament that that we're going into it that they've had for a long long time so looking forward to the next couple of months yeah and listen it ends for england away in paris and i started the pod talking about bordeaux and how i thought they had they're the defending champions and they're on a tough side of the draw they'd have to beat to lose at home to get through but they have everything needed to go and win that competition again and so many of those players are in the france team and we heard just before kickoff in in bristol that roman and tamac is out certainly the first game against Ireland.

1:02:22The dynamic over Jalibert and Fabien Gaultier and whether they pick Jalibert with Untermac out is fascinating because Jalibert is playing some supreme rugby at the moment. He has moments of magic, but he also brought a control against Bristol that was required on the day. There's a sort of a sense that he's too much of an... I don't mean this in a negative way, but at Bordeaux it runs through him. He's the creative spark in that team. If they've got Luka at nine, they'd want Jalouet to run things at 10. Obviously with France, you have Dupont running things and Untermac is more of a facilitator at 10 to allow.

1:03:06So can those two characters work together? Because if they can, why would you not want to base as much of your back line if you're France around if you've got Dupont the genius at nine and then Jalbert and Moafana and Penneau and BLBRA who all play for the same club it just it feels madness to do anything other than pick Jalbert at ten and yet he doesn't see eye to eye with Galtier does he see eye to eye with Dupont just in terms of how they want to play together Ramos obviously played a bit at ten Jalbert got dropped after they lost to England last year. That area is fascinating. And, you know, he's such a brilliant player, Jalbert.

1:03:50And yet there's a question mark over whether he even starts for France.

1:03:54Alfie: Well, let's see what happens. Let's see if we get to the final weekend with it in England-France. Grand Slam decider in Paris. Yeah, that'd be pretty epic. We've got a long way to go. Before that point, though, Will, Alex, pleasure as always. Thank you to all of you for listening as well. If you want to send us an email, the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. we'll be back with you next Monday before you go we just want to shine a light on the great work Allianz is doing behind the scenes to support the game we all love we talk a lot on the ruck about premiership stars and England internationals but every one of those journeys starts somewhere usually on a freezing morning at a local club with volunteers hand-me-down kit and a belief that rugby can genuinely change lives Allianz gets how important those places are which is why they're launching a special edition of the Allianz Future Fund just for Ruck listeners.

1:04:45Alfie: They're offering grants of£500 to£1 ,000 to help local clubs become more inclusive, more sustainable and better set up for the next generation. Whether it's new kit, safer facilities or giving young players the space to grow into tomorrow's heroes, this is a real chance to make a difference. Sign up for the Allianz Future Fund, nominate your club and help support the grassroots heart of the game. Blood donation is now more inclusive. More people are able to donate blood with the American Red Cross through FDA guidelines that eliminate eligibility questions based on sexual orientation. The Red Cross celebrates this historic change and welcomes those who may be newly eligible to donate blood.

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