Do the Lions call ups prove the tours don’t work any more?

0:00Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. Summer gave your home a workout. Cookouts, long weekends, probably at-home improvement lists that never quite got finished. And now it's fall's turn. And Lowe's is making the changeover easy with their Labor Day deals. Right now, save up to 45 % off select major appliances. So if something's been on your list, this is the time. Doing laundry? You can save an extra$100 on select laundry pairs. And if you're getting the yard ready for fall, head over and grab three bags of Miracle-Gro 0.75 cubic foot garden soil for just$10. So don't miss these Labor Day deals at Lowe's.

0:35Valid through September 9th while supplies last. Selection varies by location. See Lowe's.com for more details. Soil offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii. Outdated technology isn't going to improve a disconnected health care system.

0:49Will Kelleher: Next. So what will? At Optum, we wake up every day and work for better. We call it healthy optimism. It's how we use insights and technology to help providers focus less on paperwork and more on patients. Will we fix it all overnight? No. But we'll wake up trying again and again until healthcare works as one for everyone. That's healthy optimism. Learn more at Optum.com. Optum.

1:32Will Kelleher: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times, where we are finally going to be in one place for one week as we build up to the first test between the Wallabies and the British and Irish Lions. I'm Alfie Reynolds and joined here in an absolutely beauty of an evening in Brisbane with Stephen Jones. Steve, how are you? Very good, thanks. Good, good. Will Kelleher? Hello.

1:55Alfie Reynolds: All good? Yeah, we're all good. We're back at Churchy School, Brisbane, and it's a place for news, really, isn't it? Because last time we were here, poor old Thomas Williams got ruled out the tour and it was raining, but now we're back and there's more injury news that we'll get onto and call-ups.

2:07Will Kelleher: Plenty of call-ups, yeah. Plenty of call-ups, which we'll get onto in just a moment, but a man who has just joined the tour. Talking of call-ups. Exactly. The reinforcements for the Ruck and the Times and the Sunday Times, Owen Slott is with us. How are you, Slotty? Oh, yeah, terrific.

2:20Owen Slot: Am I the Geography One or the Bomb Squad? I'm not sure. Bomb Squad? Anyway, I'm late in. I was in the UK about 36 hours ago, and now I'm going to try and make sense on this podcast. Hello, Slotty. Yeah, Jones. When did you come in? Well, I just thought that you needed reinforcements, didn't you? No. Okay. Well, anyway, they sent me out.

2:38Alfie Reynolds: We picked him on, like, Geography, really, only, rather than... Were you next cap off the rank, do you think? Or were you valid selection? Were you devaluing the jersey by coming out here?

2:47Owen Slot: If it was a geography selection, then I suppose me being in SW13 versus maybe Mark Palmer in Edinburgh. That's true. Yeah, I got the nod on that count. Just about. Next cab off the rank, I think.

2:58Will Kelleher: I would have picked Slotty. So we'll get into all the... Thanks, Will. That means a lot. News of the day coming up. Selections, geography four, whatever we want to call it. And we're also going to be hearing from Justin Harrison and Owen Finnegan. Will, you've had a chat with them looking back at their Lions memories of beating the Lions in that test series. 2001 thank you but beforehand Slotty we've obviously you know Steve Will and I have been covering the tour and at all the tour games and talking about selection and that sort of thing as an outsider's perspective having watched at home what's your kind of feel for the tour what's

3:32Owen Slot: your view on the Lions having just flown in yeah I've been um partly obviously because I was coming and and going to be covering it so I so I had a fascination and interest in it anyway but But like probably everyone, I'm a massive Lions fan. I love the whole thing. I love the concepts. I've been watching it with real, real interest. My thoughts from afar have been they haven't had a proper match since the Argentina game in Dublin. And that's been a bit of a shame. And because of that, I don't really feel that there's been a kind of appointment to view at 11am back in the UK to watch these games.

4:08Owen Slot: People have been massively interested in it. I mean, let's not say that it's kind of been a backwater type affair, because I don't think that's the case. People have been talking a lot about it. Owen Farrell has been a massive story. So for me, the shame has been that the games haven't been great, haven't been sort of vivid, massive occasions. And I think that's partly because Australia doesn't have the depth to provide massive warm-up games, which we've known in the past. And I do think that the contract for Australia to provide first-class opposition for these games wasn't drawn up properly.

4:44Owen Slot: And you can point fingers at Lions administrators for not having done a good enough job on that. So that's been a bit of a shame, not to have massive warm-up games. That's always a thing for the Lions, is to keep the first three weeks relevant and interesting. And I don't think they've completely succeeded in that. But that's in the past now. I mean, we've got three really epic weekends ahead of us.

5:09Will Kelleher: Steve, does it make it difficult, in a way, with what Slotty says, of us being able to judge exactly where the Lions are because of those tour games? Absolutely. Of course it does. I don't think anyone's got any idea where they are. It's very sad. It's very sad. We're desperate for a big game because it'll be the first big game. I mean, I didn't think that they should have played Argentina in Dublin, but thank God they did. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had any rugby at all. And, Slotty, you said that the Lions should have reacted. Of course they should. But the first people who should react was the Australians who signed the contract.

5:42There's been no jeopardy on the tour. And there are some players on the tour. In fact, there are a lot of them. But we don't even know if they're any good or not.

5:49Owen Slot: I think, yes, I agree. In some ways, I think the Australians have shot themselves in the foot here. In that this tour has been partly about, not officially about, But we know that Rugby Union Australia is not thriving, particularly at the moment. And this tour is a massive opportunity for Australia to bring the Wallabies and to bring Rugby Union back into the headlines. But by not putting their strongest teams forward, they've just hurt themselves by doing that. In a sense, we think that they've helped themselves because they protected their players, etc. But I just think it's been counterproductive.

6:27This is the last time this tour in this format will ever come to Australia. They might come to Australia again, but they're going to have to play people on the way down or maybe on the way back, but not these semi-teams that they've played so far.

6:44Owen Slot: You say that, Steve, as if that's a controversial thing, but I so completely agree with you, and I think it's just obvious now. Why am I saying it's a controversial thing? I'm saying it because I believe it. I know, but you said this is the last time this can happen. But it is a controversial thing to say this is the last kind of tour that we can kind of have like that. But they've almost made that inevitable. They've driven it in the direction to make this the case that they can't allow this to happen again. Because, as you say, this has been two and a half weeks of where it's not been a proper Lions tour or not been a proper Lions opposition.

7:18Alfie Reynolds: And I think that naturally brings us to the news of the day, doesn't it? Where we've had these extra Scottish call-ups. So we've got Rory Sutherland, Ewan Ashman, and we've got Darcy Graham. To just cover off the admin of it, which is a phrase I use a lot on this podcast, Ashman and Sutherland are likely to play for Scotland on Friday in Auckland against Samoa and then back up on the bench in Melbourne next Tuesday. They're not arriving until early next week, whereas Darcy Graham, who got two yellow cards against Fiji for Scotland last Saturday but wasn't banned, is coming here to cover, they've said, for Gary Ringrose.

7:53Alfie Reynolds: They've said there's no other injuries, they're just cover. And then also on Sunday, we had Thomas Clarkson become the 14th Leinster Lion and 18th Irishman in this squad, which is now 44 players. So I'm calling these guys the First Nations Four because they're only covering this First Nations-Pacifica game. And I guess that all of that raises the question of what's the point of this Tuesday game next week between the tests? They've already got rid of the game in the midweek of the first test because it was a massive inconvenience. And now it's so obvious to me that this other game, the First Nations Pacific game, is another massive inconvenience because it's causing them to have to protect their testing with all these extra players.

8:30Alfie Reynolds: What do we think? I think, first of all, I agree with Will. But the people I feel sorry for, I mean, the people who are coming down to be Lions, if only for a day or two, fine, good luck to them. The people I really feel sorry for are those trying to get into the shaker for the Lions test team. because there's no way you can get into the shaker by performing against the rabble that they played against last Saturday and the rabble that they're going to play against next midweek because it is completely impossible to show test form against bad teams. And I feel sorry for the people who are not going to make the first test and because they don't make the first test, they're not going to make any of the other tests either.

9:12Alfie Reynolds: It's a real... So, like, this is not the first time they've done it. The Geography 6 was a big issue in 2017. There were also call-ups in 2013 where the likes of Shane Williams came out of the Talk Sports studio to play the Brumbies. And they had Billy Twelvetrees and Brad Barrett and Tom Court who was visiting family in Brisbane and then ended up on a bench. So it's happened before. Warren Gatland did it and said afterwards that he regretted doing it in 2017 because of the controversy of Alan Dale, Christian Dacey, Thomas Francis, Corey Hill, Finn Russell and Gareth Davis. here the lions are saying they're not based on geography in some sentences and then saying they are on in others aren't they slotty like we listened to john dll earlier sort of trying to explain it and it was a bit i don't know a messy message maybe about who who should be here and who isn't and why they are and all that well john dll said it wasn't geography and then he said

10:01Owen Slot: geographically they're here yeah um so so no it wasn't clear i mean i i i kind of feel for for this one I don't think it's so much people's fault I think this is proving that the second midweek game or the final midweek game is really a kind of a redundant occasion it's it's why is it you know it's not there to help the Lions prepare because they're having to ship people in I feel the Lions are having to do the game because they've drawn up a contract that says they have to so it's really a game that that's being played for an attendance gate and for telly yeah say well

10:36Alfie Reynolds: we've still got 10 games it's not a reduced touring schedule it's a game that's sort of it's

10:41Will Kelleher: just it's raising money it's a fundraiser yeah how much does it devalue the lions those call-ups so they're calling up essentially to help them train and then to be part of this midweek game some of them are then going to go back and going to be released yeah so they've said they've clarified that some might go home after that tuesday so some might be released lines for a matter of days as steve said it feels to me like it it does devalue that lions

11:06Alfie Reynolds: jersey but I guess they've they sort of the cat's well out the bag with that like yeah for sure but so you're sort of devaluing a jersey that's already been devalued in 2017 and 2013 so and and look their argument on the other side would be these are genuine next cabs off the rank they're not bag holders but then it's it sort of changes in each sentence doesn't it as we've said of exactly why who they're here and which ones are a geography and which ones are genuine next cabs

11:30Owen Slot: I think the thing about the devaluing is sort of interesting. I mean, are we saying that kind of in 50 years' time when Ewan Ashman tells his grandchildren, oh, I was a lion, that Finn Russell's going to be telling his grandchildren, oh, don't listen to your granddad because he... Don't listen to Ashman's granddad because he's talking a load of nonsense. I mean, you know, the value thing is kind of like... We and most people know what the value of it is and it's not what it was or...

11:59Will Kelleher: I suppose to me it's more I feel like the Lions should call players up if they're covering injury. A bit like a World Cup squad, I suppose. And maybe this is just the professional world and I'm looking back at it with a romantic view of what the Lions once was. But it feels to me, Steve, it should be to replace people that are injured rather than just calling people up to take place in a midweek team. I agree. The trouble is with these Lions, you never know who's injured and who isn't. people are taken off the field clearly in distress and yet they're asked 15 times how how is he or how are you and they never say so i mean until they get a doctor who can make a decision about it or at least the lions make a decision no one knows who's fit and who isn't

12:40Alfie Reynolds: so now we're going to have a situation where there are going to be five hookers in a 44 man squad cowan dickie is out for 12 days as is gary ringrose but they're in slightly different patterns because ring roses concussion was the wednesday brumby's game so he'll be free from that if he passes all the tests earlier than cow and dickie so that's why there's cover but it does seem unwieldy and like i think my view is they should do a bit like steve you said it earlier on one of our pods right right at the start of this trip that people used to only come in if they were replacing someone from injury so someone like way Dooley who went to his father's funeral had to leave the tour and and maybe that's another element they can add in it's not necessarily just old school it's like a world cup like you have a 31 it used to be announced 33 isn't it for the next one and it used to be 30 and smaller numbers than that and that's it and if someone's ruled out or banned they have to go home and someone else has to come in and i wonder whether that's a way of sorting that out and sort of making the lines the challenge that it should be because actually you saw it's sort of easy if you can just go well by the end of the tour we can just have 50 people just to cover every possible eventuality of injuries whereas it's meant to be difficult isn't it?

13:47Alfie Reynolds: It's meant to be hard. It is. I just wonder whether you come into the stage where you think, well, if we're going to bring 50 people down, well, the rest might as well bring them all down at the start and the rest can play some of the lesser fixtures and then the main lines can play some of the big games. But isn't that exactly what happened in 05? Clive Woodward picked a massive squad of 45 or 46 and ended up being 50 and got murdered, basically, for having two squads, two buses, two everything else. So they've sort of ending up getting to the same place that Clive Woodward got to, but they're doing it by stealth on these tours because of the reaction to 05, aren't they?

14:23Owen Slot: I think we're just proving that in the modern world, this Lions tour don't work anymore. So if you took out that final midweek game, then we wouldn't have this problem. So just do that. Let's say on the way down next time, when they come to Australia, they should play, providing all three nations are boosted, They should play Tonga, Samoa and Fiji, who hopefully will be really up to speed by then with the new shape of rugby and play them on the way down and galvanise three nations and then come and play Australia as test matches. I agree. And Steve Jones is tour manager as well. There you go. A bit old then, mate.

15:03Will Kelleher: Right. Let's round it off then, boys. because we've spoken about how maybe the tour games, you know, haven't been the most competitive and there's an element of negativity about some of these call-ups, which hopefully we've rounded off and tried to explain. This week's going to be awesome though, isn't it? Building up to the first season. Definitely, and I think that people who are on their first tour or first fans or first players, they'll be really pleased with the scenes on Friday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday when all the red jerseys come in. I mean, there's been talk that some of the numbers were exaggerated, but actually there will be an absolute torrent of red jerseys, and that'll turn it all on.

15:42And the Lions will be playing not only for themselves then, but for all the people who come all that way. So it's going to be a great week. Maybe these debates, we'll be having them now, but we won't be having them for the next couple of weeks because there's Test Match Rugby, and it's the best. It's the top of rugby for me. It's bigger than World Cups.

16:01Will Kelleher: Yeah, I mean, I can't wait for it. I'm so excited for this week. there was a really nice moment earlier because the Wallabies also had their press conference and it was Will Skelton and Joseph Suelihi. And as everyone put their phones down on the table to record, Suelihi was kind of like one, two, three, like counting through the amount of them. And was like, wow, this is this is big. And then he took a photo of us, didn't he?

16:18Alfie Reynolds: He took a photo of the room. Yeah, exactly. But I love that because this is a man who's I mean, I keep forgetting he's 21. He's impressive, isn't he? He's impressive. He sort of exudes this amazing aura, doesn't he? and let's see if, I hope he has more ball than he did against Fiji the other week because he could really ignite this series if he has a great battle with Sione Tupolotto. If he plays, they go back a bit with a couple of send-offs in Murrayfield last time they came across each other but it was great, wasn't it Alfie? Seeing two big beasts in the room, Will Skell and Joseph Sueli, you think now we're on.

16:50Alfie Reynolds: And they were bouncing off each other. And I hope guys that are coming, if they're not, then they'll love it from afar but people on Caxton Street drinking their bars dry and all that stuff. That's what we want to see, isn't it? Because it's taken a little bit of time, hasn't it, to get this going, but I hope it goes off like a bomb now. Slytherin, you've picked the chocolate and you missed all the non-chocolate bits, but anyway, you're very welcome.

17:13Owen Slot: What's the analogy? Yeah, I got the chocolate. Is this a roses thing? I got all the best ones. Yeah.

17:21Alfie Reynolds: We left you with the horrible raspberry swirls or whatever they are. But you'll think all the Lions tour has been like this. when you see this sensational game on Test Match.

17:29Owen Slot: You said that to me the first time, Jonesy, and this puts a bit of a date on us. You first said that to me 28 years ago. Did I? Yeah, because, Jesus, I hate that sentence. How old were we then? Did you even bother answering that? Let's not go there. Yeah, 28 years ago in Durban, Jonesy, you said to me, Slotty, I bet you think all Lions tours are like this, but they're bloody not. Oh, no, well, that was a great Lions tour. That's why he said it. that's why I said it 97 that was my first Lions tour I remember where we were we were in Camps Bay at Blues well it was in Durban when they won the second one oh right oh sorry they won a series yeah and I yeah it was the greatest Lions tour ever yeah so Steve

18:14Alfie Reynolds: what number Lions test match is this going to be for you on Saturday 30 odd 11 tours the first one was 40 but 35 something like that something like that hell of an effort that is impressive

18:25Will Kelleher: that is impressive Slotty how was the sleep have you had a day yet when did you arrive again I got in at midnight last night ok fine so do you sleep ok no ok fine

18:34Owen Slot: I don't sleep very well anyway ok after when my time clock's been put out by 9 hours and I've had a a long journey across the world then I sleep even worse so you're going to be

18:43Will Kelleher: you're aiming for the midweek then in Melbourne are you or do you think you could sneak in on Saturday

18:48Owen Slot: well I reckon I write a decent sentence by halfway through the final week ok

18:52Alfie Reynolds: peak for the big stuff yeah exactly

18:54Owen Slot: This is when you guys jump in and go, no Slotty. Oh, sorry. Did we miss that? No Slotty, not at all.

19:01Alfie Reynolds: I can't wait for your sentences this evening.

19:04Will Kelleher: All right. We'll let Slotty go off and get some sleep. Next podcast for you is going to be... Team selection. Should we do one then? Team selection Thursday. Yeah, first test team.

19:14Alfie Reynolds: I imagine people are going to have an opinion on who got picked in that team by Thursday. Well, we've been speaking about it for about a year, so that'll be good fun.

19:22Will Kelleher: We'll leave you here, though, on this episode with Will's chat with Justin Harrison and Owen Finnegan, reminiscing when they beat the Lions in 2001. And we'll be back with you on Thursday.

19:52to help providers focus less on paperwork and more on patients. Will we fix it all overnight? No, but we'll wake up trying again and again until healthcare works as one for everyone. That's healthy optimism. Learn more at Optum.com. Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. Summer gave your home a workout. Cookouts, long weekends, probably at-home improvement lists that never quite got finished. And now it's fall's turn, and Lowe's is making the changeover easy with their Labor Day deals, Right now, save up to 45 % off select major appliances. So if something's been on your list, this is the time. Doing laundry?

20:29You can save an extra$100 on select laundry pairs. And if you're getting the yard ready for fall, head over and grab three bags of Miracle-Gro.75 cubic foot garden soil for just$10. So don't miss these Labor Day deals at Lowe's. Valid through September 9th while supplies last. Selection varies by location. See Lowe's.com for more details. Soil offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii.

21:19Alfie Reynolds: voice you've just heard is Justin Harrison. Welcome, Justin. G'day, mate. How are you? Very good. Great to be in Australia and great to be on the eve of Wallabies Lions Test Series. Is it stirring the blood? Wallabies, Lions o 'clock? Well, I think we're finally seeing the momentum that this event brings. The rugby festival has been a great lead up. You've seen all sorts of fans starting to arrive in the Sea of Red. This thing called the Sea of Red is actually real now, isn't it? You're walking past pubs and clubs, people are going to and from venues, enjoying singing and that's the wonderful thing about rugby.

21:52I'm enjoying telling everyone when I'm doing something wrong, I'm Owen Finnegan. When I've done something wrong, I'm Justin Harrison. Yeah, seeing that atmosphere start to build is amazing. Good preparation, waiting for the announcements of the Wallabies and Lions squads and feeling that little bit older when you played in 2001 it's like 24 years ago so it doesn't get uh doesn't get any harder talking about yourself though because we were pretty good back then you know yeah we're able to uh sneak over the lines one and a half each we talk about it was two games to one but the 11-6 half time and test two and then we got the better of them in the second half and then bring in justin harrison and he won the series for us in game three happy days yeah so are there memories from that first time I've heard him admit that really yeah the memories that kind of

22:40Alfie Reynolds: as clear as day all these years on that you will always stick stick with you you know there there are landmark victories that you remember that's absolutely a huge event in anyone's rugby calendar and horoscope been both sides of the story they've lost you know lost the world cup lost some things as well so you don't only remember it because of the victory I remember it you know the 12-year cycle, once in a career opportunity and the timing of it for me was outstanding, coming into a world champion Wallaby outfit that had every trophy in the cabinet at the time. So it's a pinch me moment just to be entering the change rooms and training with this team, let alone participating in the Lions series and winning it.

23:23I think it was the first time really that Australian rugby and the Wallabies appreciated the juggernaut that is the British Irish Lions, the series before had been notable for intensity. And this was the first time we recognised that the game was professional and it was in a completely different sort of compartment in terms of rugby history.

23:42Alfie Reynolds: Yeah. And Owen, I mean, you scored a try in a World Cup final and lifted the Webb Ellis Trophy, but where does that Lions series win sit for you in your sort of career? I asked that conversation about a month ago and I sort of put it ahead of the World Cup. Having had Irish heritage and the only one in my family that was born in Australia, so the rest of my family are all from our island and born over there. So I knew by how many relatives that were coming over and how many relatives came over 12 years before. So for us, it's that once in 12 years opportunity. There's some blokes like Nathan Sharp who played for a decade for the Wallabies but didn't get a Lions series.

24:20George Smith's, I think, one of the few players that has played two lots of Lions series. James Lippa might do it as well. Yeah, James Lippa might do. So there's a, yeah, and I'm sure he will do. I'm sure he's put himself in a good enough position to get there. So it is, there's lots of great Wallabies that miss out on the opportunity to play in a Lions series and have played that and some just fall in at the right time. And like we said, so 1998, we won our first Bledisloe Cup, 99, a Rugby World Cup, 2000, you know, obviously 2001 Lions. So by that stage, like the trophy cabinet was full. Australian rugby was at its best and I remember 10 years ago Andrew Merton's told me anyone can have a bad decade but we're on our second bad decade now so it's interesting so it gives the Wallabies a good opportunity to sort of reignite the game here in Australia against these current lines and it brings a lot of attention to the sport sometimes we battle for that you know particularly in Australia with AFL and NRL don't necessarily have that in South Africa or New Zealand or over in the UK as much as you do here in Australia.

25:23So that's a real challenge for us in the sport to sort of get out of a bit of debt we're in as well. And it's well known. So opportunity for the Lions to come. But what you love more is the experience. I had just as much fun in 2013 as I did in 2001. Obviously, supportings are different, but you get to feel what all the other supporters that are going to be watching this. I remember 2001, we lost the game. Brian O'Driscoll waltzed through us a few times. the crowd were singing Walt Singer Driscoll but going to recovery the next day the British and Irish Lions were outside the pub and I thought these blokes are going to give it to us as we walk past to go and do our pool session but they're yelling out well done boys good luck we're looking forward to the next one the banter's unreal for the month five weeks of this tour and the people that come in are passionate rugby people so it's great to see some of that bounce off for Australians How many Finnegan's?

26:12So World Cup 0-1 series now which one was the biggest ticket request for the Finnegan clan? Well, I think because O1 was here, there was still like a 20-plus that came out.

26:26Alfie Reynolds: How many cousins have you got? My mum's got 14 brothers and sisters, and my dad's got 13 brothers and sisters. I've got over 100 first cousins. Proper Irish. And also hunting a free ticket. Yeah, so I remember running out on Lamsdowne Road, and the ground announcer said, please welcome the Qantas Wallaby, Owen Finnegan and his 46 relatives. There was a story in the Irish Herald about all the relatives and on the bus they used to go through the team alphabetically, Burke and Eels and eventually get to Finnegan and everyone was like four, two, three and the manager would go up, Finnegan and I'd go 46.

27:03It was always a big number because my dad and mum used to, they hardly missed a game and used to go over there and rev up all the rellos and go around during the week doing the pump up and I used to dread the phone call on Monday afternoon and tell me how many tickets they wanted for the next game.

27:16Alfie Reynolds: There were some big stadiums in that series, weren't there? So you must have done okay for tickets. Yeah, well, they were always busy, though. Carter Farms was full. But, you know, all our pool matches were in Ireland in 1999, which worked as well. So the two times Australia have won the World Cup, they were based in Ireland. So it's always a pretty good omen. But, yeah, great experience and a long time ago. Like Justin and Noah, his family love supporting his journey. and it's great to sort of see that continue. But the first test of the Lions, I think, started a bit of a tradition where initially we had to give away gear for people to wear.

27:53But you go to a game and just see a sea of red. We turned out of the Gabba and it was like you were playing in Cardiff. You just walked out and everyone was red. Went down to Melbourne the next week and I think they gave away 40 ,000 scarves and beanies, gold stuff. But at least there was a splattering of gold in the stadium.

28:09Alfie Reynolds: Did they turn the lights off as well above some of the Lions fans to make it look like there were a few of them there? Probably. I think that was a bit of skullduggery. I don't think they... Probably. I think in those days they didn't have the stadium that you could turn off lights because they'd never come back on for another hour. So what can those Lions fans that are going to pile in in Brisbane and then Melbourne and Sydney, what can they do to the opposition? You've sensed it, that 0-1 thing. I think the noise factor, for the first time in this tour, we saw or heard the Lions, Lions, Lions chant going up at the Waratahs game?

28:44First time. Probably not enough, though. I'd say the Lions are a bit embarrassing at the moment. It's taking a while. They will, they will. So I remember I won, just I remember thinking the physical assault of the wave of sound as you ran out onto the stadium. And there are very few times once a test starts, having, you know, that first one for me, it was all about not looking, trying to not look at a place and not missing a call or listening to Mellon or Griggs and Eelsey as captain. So you try and shut it all out, but the noise, I remember the noise. So I think from a Lions perspective, sure, there's a visual of the Red Sea of Army, and it's a powerful jersey, powerful, colourful combination, right?

29:21You see it very clearly. I think most notably it will be the noise, the noise that the Lions fans will bring. I think it's not just that. They also then, you know, it'll be a random Fields of Athenry or a Flower of Scotland. There was just non-stop singing during that. And also they're into every part of the game. They're very knowledgeable, supported by us. So one of my memories of playing in Northern Hemisphere was that they're into everything. They're into a seemingly innocuous clearance from a 22 kick or a long dropout or something, an individual skill. Yeah, they celebrate. They understand the strategy and tactics.

29:55Turn over a penalty, someone over the footy. There's excitement on all those things. And normally that's when you hear it because that's when the game stops. Like there's a penalty and you hear them roaring and you go... Yeah, and they're busy drinking the bar dry as well, just quietly. I mean, there's still a record at Caxton Street for consumption in the 01 tour. I drank them out of beer.

30:13Alfie Reynolds: Well, is that going to be beaten, do you think? First test week? Yeah, I think it's a... It's a challenge, right? Yeah, it's a massive... That's the pinnacle for the fans. We'll help. But when you were playing... And his 46 cousins. That's what I'm saying. When you were playing, you didn't really notice the touring side of it. Sure, yeah. And in 2013, you did. So when you go into town on a... So we might have gone into town one day and done a signing session or whatever, and you just see a sea of red during the shopping centres. It's like when you go to Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, and you're there from like Wednesday to Saturday, and even on Saturday on game day, you go into town.

30:47It's busy. Every pub's full. There's atmosphere everywhere you go. Any night of the week to an Irish bar or something, there's something happening in the area. So they'll probably come down en masse to have been to the Brumbies, have been to the Force, have been to the Waratahs. then you get to test matches, the serious stuff. This is where some of them haven't come or arrived yet, so they're coming for this first test match and three test matches, and they're coming for the rugby, so that adds to the atmosphere.

31:15Alfie Reynolds: Yeah. Well, talking about throwing in the deep end, first cap. I didn't really remember that. I was looking it up, and first cap, third test. Yeah, crazy. What a moment to have on your first international, Justin. Yeah, I was very lucky. I just yeah Thursday I was late finding out as well sort of David Giffen and Eelsie were the starting second row so there's no chance I'm getting picked ahead of them I hadn't managed to injure him during the training camp so I'm like right I'm out team's been announced Thursday comes around and and and Giff's still in but then he comes you know comes to my door and says oh look I'm I'm out of the test I'm injured I've hurt my hamstring last night and you're in so I found out on Thursday from another player and then yeah had sort of 72 hours to get ready for it.

32:02But there's a better part to that story isn't it because you got promoted earlier. I did get promoted earlier. Rob McQueen had just finished a conversation with me about 15 minutes beforehand telling me that I was going to be the water boy for the team and run the water on the field and I'm thinking oh my god the first time I'm going to take the field with Wallabies is this is a bloody water boy and he had literally just finished telling me you know very important job we're really proud you know that you've done well Australia the Brumbies you know you've been a good member of the squad and then he finishes it with we want you to run the water it's unanimous by management we think it'd be great for the best man for the job yeah we think he'd be great for you to experience you know test arena and what it's like to be out there in the middle getting temperatures right but not to give everyone water right um and so I go to let him out of the room literally gifts there gifts standing there and he tells me that he's injured and Rob McQueen sort panics and runs up to his room and so 10 minutes later i get a phone call from robert queen and he it's the same story except the end is um we've actually had to think about it and uh you're

32:59Alfie Reynolds: going to start with johnny yeah yeah and we mentioned banter before and like gone down in infamy the whole austin healy yeah there was a bit of lead up i mean i listen did that affect you at all did you find it funny all of that stuff no it was just being called a plank his whole career he loved it he loved banter and a bit of well i loved a bit of banter but you pick Got the smallest bloke on the field in the Lions outfit, don't you? They're big boys. But, yeah, we'd had a bit of a love affair since the Australia A game. He'd sort of had a few things off the ball, and I thought, well, why not?

33:28And then it continued into Brumbies when he was carrying on a bit. I mean, he's a big character. He's a pork chop, really. I mean, I just didn't like him. I think that I've been validated by several fans, British Knights Lions fans, and his own teammates. Probably Pat Brown the back as well.

33:44Alfie Reynolds: Brian Driscoll boxed him that tour, didn't he? Yeah, that's right. They had a little boxing fight. That's exactly right. I think Pranodriscal won. It's a tired line, but he's hard to avoid but worth the effort. And the context of the test, there's no way I've got time to worry about what a little outside back is worrying. Who's not even playing, he was injured and he was out of the team. So for me it was about just trying to do my job. I was reading back some of the columns and one of his better lines perhaps, which is uh predicting history almost is a few days before the final test he said you talk about you and he's like what do you know he's in the team to face us me and the plank do you think one of us will have the final say i'll say so he was right wasn't he yeah he did yeah you did you're welcome yeah that's right he um yeah it was plod plank and ape and all sorts of stuff i mean gosh written column first time by eddie butler the late eddie butler that's right that's right and actually the morning of the test I mean you know an ape doesn't necessarily have this as their diet but I remember opening the door and there's a hand of bananas at the foot of my door and I thought this must be wallaby protocol so I've walked down to the breakfast hall with this hand of bananas eating a banana and something's off you know there's a there's I've noticed Joe Roth, Matt Burke, a few of the other players sitting there laughing you're in there too I'm sure and then I look I pivot right and there's a table with all of the paper spread out with Austin Healy's column calling me a plod plank and ape and I'm standing there eating a banana and so the whole team, not the whole team, but most of them laugh their heads off.

35:16So that was my test morning. To settle my nerves, I'm getting shit put on me by my teammates. Great. And a bunch of bananas left at his door. And a bunch of bananas. You're full of potassium, no? Well that's what I thought. It must be a cramped thing, no problem, I'll start eating this. Maybe if Austin Healy left the bear, he might have poisoned him. Yeah, I'm sure he would have. Like the South African rugby team. He's on QF1 on the way home anyway.

35:37Alfie Reynolds: So talk us through the steel. Watch it back. And looking at it from like a modern lens, it's so obvious it's going to Martin Johnson all the time, isn't it? It's obvious. Were you like on your first cap going? That sort of obvious needs a lot of skill. Oh, yeah. After 78 minutes. It's obvious to me, no one else. But did you see it and you were like... Well, John Hill saw it and he said to Gug, it's going to... No, he didn't. I was talking with you, actually. I remember, so Mellon was in charge of pretty much sorting out defensive line outs and so he and it we'd you know talked in the lead up to the game and we knew Keith Wood was was not a bad trial but sort of move around a bit so first line out of the game I'm at four and I we we get that we get it actually we get the line out off Danny Groocrock get a penalty you carry their offside we get three points bang I'm into the game right I've done something positive I've done my job that's it then take another line out just just before second um end of first half at six I'm jumping at six now Mellon lifts me and then moved to two for that line out.

36:36I remember running in and thinking... Yeah, so we did rotate a bit. I think at the start of the game, I defended by myself at two. And if they threw to Johnson in the front, I'd just try and pull the maul down because that was one of their strengths, obviously, was mauling. Legally, of course. Yeah, but if it's one person in a maul, it's not a maul, it's just a tackle, mate. So I know the laws of the game. Sloughing around, standing on people's heads. So it's a one-person job. So obviously, trying to get them down is another thing. But that part of the game dominated us. and test one. So as you watch them during the series and see what's coming, you learn a bit about what they're doing as well.

37:12Back in the day, we did a lot of video work and tried to come up with strategies on how and why you'd defend how you did. Yeah, it was obvious. Penalty, momentum, energies through the roof for the British Knights Lions. The whole team's on a roll. We're on the back foot. We're a bit fatigued. I remember running in and saying, I'm going to the two, Mellon, I'm going to have a go. this and then it was Michael Foley's in front of me and Rod Moore's behind me and they need a lot of convincing to commit to a lift because the whole tactic had been to stay down at two and collapse it and and you look if you look at the still frame and the and the line out it's not a high it's not a great throw heaps of energy around Jono and his two lifters and nothing and you can tell no one else is involved in the line out catch everyone everyone of the British Knights is involved in getting ready for them all so you know a bit of captain obvious but then a huge amount of luck, right?

38:03You've still got to get there. Well, I mean, it pings off left, goes to right, hits my knee, I think. You know, there's at least... That was traditional. Left, right, mate. Every time he caught the ball. Well, I remember hitting the ground, and that's when I became aware of the crowd again, actually. I remember hitting the ground thinking, wow, hang on, this feels like the ball. That's not someone's head or my knee. It's the ball. And then I hear, I hear the crowd and I get up. Andrew Walker pats me on the bum. and then there is another two line outs, so two more line outs, but they don't go to more.

38:34They go to back, and Ealsy upsets it, and then we get the ball back. I just watched this year, the last minute of the game, and it was hectic. There was balls getting thrown inside. Mate, they skin us. They almost skin us. Run down the side, and I think that's the best tackle. George Gregan did a great one on Jeff Wilson that he's renowned for, but he actually makes a brilliant one-on-one tackle and throw it inside him. I think Matt Cobain knocks it back. and someone else kicks it out and that's the game. George Green is giving him this one. Yeah, yeah. How did that feel at the end?

39:06Alfie Reynolds: Because from the Lions side of it, they felt totally broken. They had a massive season, 50 games, some of them. That's why these columns were coming out because they were complaining about it. But also on the other side of it, some people we've spoken to about it since have gone, that was one of the great misses of their career that they didn't win that series. So from your side, was it just as you started off? In 2013, the Wallabies would be thinking the same as one all going to the last game and they got pumped in the third one. The 2003 Wallabies are thinking the same thing. They should have won the World Cup and Johnny Wilkinson kicked a goal and it was neck and neck.

39:39But you get these opportunities, sometimes you get them, sometimes you don't. 1989, the try off a Campo pass. I think some of the angst around the 0-1 is that it was the first British Knights Lions tour that really cemented professionalism in the game as well in a professional regime. So Graeme Henry ran a very tight ship. There was division in the group, definitely around team selection. I think that he went very early with his A team and then his B dirt-tracking team were full of strong personalities as well. And they ship them off to different places a fair bit. They send one team somewhere to prepare for an A team and they send just the B team off where they seem to be sort of travelling around a bit more.

40:27Obviously, you have a bit of that and there's lots of logistics. Yeah, so we were pretty fortunate that there was division in the group, I reckon, as well. Because, you know, in those high-pressure moments, that does count sometimes, one or two percent each way. And Martin, John, I remember, I have read an article, actually, John, I did an article recently that, you know, absolutely he regrets it, but he talks a bit about what was happening off the field. And when that sort of thing happens, when that's a choice, the sporting cauldron will throw up uncertainty and intrigue and drama and success and failure and sometimes you have very limited control over that.

41:01But off the field and the way you manage the group and him as captain as well would have been acutely aware of losing a portion of the squad and not being able to reconnect that squad with each other and then that whole squad with the coach. That's when you really start to regret missed opportunities.

41:16Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, yeah. So if we do a couple on this series, talk to me about the sort of Aussie sporting spirit because everyone's looking at this series and going, are the Wallabies going to be any good? But is there something deep in that Aussie hard-thought thing, which we see in cricket and we see all the sports? Well, there is, and this is a once-every-12-year opportunity that you've got. So all these current Wallabies will be thinking this is a once-in-a-12-year opportunity. Not everyone gets these. These are the people that were doing it. And there is that. There's definitely the series is going to be tight.

41:49It's not going to be a runaway. And like if I'm a Wallaby now, I think to myself, well, Argentina have done a pretty good job over there. The Waratahs have now done a pretty good job without some of your Test match players. So the pressure almost goes on you a bit more to perform. So I think there is that sort of fighting spirit. Your backs are to the wall. No one's expecting anything of you. And as a group, you get tighter. So we would have felt it in 2001 when you lose the first Test convincingly to try and turn it around in one week of training. So the Wallabies had a rusty game against Fiji, but they're coming in sort of prepared, and that was a hard enough physical match with blokes running at you.

42:30I think they're well prepared for a series, and they'll make the most of their opportunities. But leading into it, just some of the banter, even from South Africa, like you shouldn't even be going to Australia, just come to South Africa instead. That sort of run field. Once every 12 years, and they'll get a tough series, no doubt. You look at the history of Australia, one of our best exports is sport, sporting performance on the big stage. So World Cup tournaments, British Knights Lions tournaments, big trophies. Ashes Series, Olympics. All the major sporting events, we typically perform very well.

43:05And I think culturally, we're a frontier country that deals with a lot of adversity all of the time. We're either in flood, drought, fire, all those sorts of things rolled into big cultural diversity and problem solving. and historically we're still problem solving. But that means that when you get a chance to exemplify what it means to represent this country, lots of different things come together. Most of it culminates in courage. You see courage in honesty, honesty in performance and courage. And that's what you see quite often when a national team performs well on a world stage. That's what they jump into.

43:39We're well prepared. Everyone's pretty similar in athletic profiling now. Intelligence for an Australian athlete used to be a competitive advantage. Now everyone, every program is unlocking the same sort of thing. There are no secrets anymore. The thing now that Australia has typically on the world stage that some people dip in and out of is something that requires no skill, and that's courage and effort and determination and spirit. Every country has that, absolutely, but when you talk about Australia, that's what rises to the fore. So that's why the Wallabies absolutely can perform well. professional sport and sport has no regard for history as well so don't worry about form that's coming into a British Knights Lions team series it's all about the intensity of the moment I think there's a good balance we've got a really strong back row I think and you know the the type five will be you know competitive that's that that's where I see the game being won and lost in the type five and I think both back lines are really strong probably we're not as strong in half and 5 '8", but we've got world-class back five.

44:44So I love the idea of Lenny Ketou and Joseph Suwali playing together, and they've shown over in Europe that they can give some room to their back three. So for me, it's really that type five and the combination of nine and ten, and when we're winning things, we have good half 5 '8 combats like Gregan and Larkham or Gregan and Flatley in 2001. So time will tell.

45:08Alfie Reynolds: Well, we can't wait. It's going to be fascinating, isn't it? Thanks so much for your time, Justin Harrison, Owen Finnegan. And really enjoy the series. But pleasure to have you on the run. We will. Go to the Wallabies. Yeah.

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