Do the Prem's blowouts challenge its franchise future?

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1:12Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. It was a week of contrasting fortunes in both the Gallagher Prem and the women's Six Nations. Welcome along. I'm Alfie Reynolds. And to help me dissect it, to review it alongside me in studio on a Monday morning is Charlie Morgan. morning Charlie. Hello pal. How are we? Very well thank you. Well we're gonna get we've got lots to get into but you were actually at the best game of the weekend one of the best games of the season at Sandy Park. We'll come on to that. Down the line joining us this week back on the ruck is Will Kelleher.

1:43How you doing Will? Hello I feel a bit isolated here lads. I'm in our Derbyshire studios and Alfie you've done a nice job decking it out actually. It's a lovely spot up here. There's lambs out the window, sun is shining, it's all good up north apart from where Sale our sharks are playing, which we won't get on to. Step in there. You can't be calling Derbyshire the North. Midlands. Controversial straight away. No, I don't think you can. You're close, but not quite. I think we'd be letting down our people. It's North now, I usually am. It is, it is. Yorkshire is pretty close to me here, Charlie.

2:14And you were writing about Yorkshire last week. And they would say that they're very North. Like over the bridge around the corner is a pub called the Yorkshire Bridge. So that's got to be North, hasn't it? Okay. Yeah, I think you're getting there, probably. Well, not to start on too controversial a footing, but the ruck at the times.co.uk is Derbyshire in the north. People can get in touch. I bet we'll end up getting more interaction on that one question than we do on anything else. But welcome along, everyone. As I mentioned already, a real kind of contrast, I think, in some of the results this week, women's Six Nations and in particular in the Prem.

2:50So we'll come on to all of that. I should mention as well, we're going to be having a chat with Joe Launchbury. He announced his retirement from rugby last week at the end of the season. And Elgin is going to join us to look back on the women's Six Nations. England absolutely walloping Scotland in that game at Murray Field. But look, Will and Charlie, I'm intrigued. We've kind of been speaking about this over the weekend. Before each pod, we often say, you know, what's the theme? What's the story this week? And it feels to me, Charlie, that there's a real contrast here between Gloucester, Newcastle, Harlequin's sale, their performances on the pitch and kind of where the prem is with a bit of a lack of jeopardy or teams dropping off.

3:31and the positive stuff off the pitch that we've got, and you were writing about this last week, of the Bournemouth owners, Bournemouth Football Club's owners' potential investment in Exeter, which was the story that kind of broke it towards the end of last week? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think, yeah, you're right. There's that contrast and the league is going to expand over, we hope, over the next couple of years as well. But before that happens, there is always a danger that this happens. And this split was really accentuated by just the match-ups this week and four out of five thrashings certainly certainly at least a couple of thrashings um is not what you're trying to market not what the premise marketed itself on as a competitive close entertaining league um that said yeah i'm i'm kind of colored where i work from my sort of point of view which was i was at a game at sandy park where there was a kind of air of optimism about the impending takeover representatives of the the body that is taking over the club were there to watch a game that was played out among some of the most entertaining recognizable figures in the game it was really close one in the last play so there's this dichotomy there isn't there and it was sort of there was more shade than light this weekend and that's kind of given us a chance to sort of really kind of criticize and have a look at this kind of 10 team league and where we where we are set up.

4:56As ever, there are differing opinions. I think it was a fascinating weekend, wasn't it, Charlie and Alfie? Because apart from that game you were at, Charlie, it sort of pitched the sort of bin juice at the bottom against those chasing the top four, didn't it? And in all of those games, they were largely massively one-sided in favour of the teams chasing something. So Bristol 53, Gloucester 12, Leicester 62, Newcastle 3, Bath 48 in third gear, really. 15 against Quinns and then the one I was at which was the most sort of ridiculous remarkable one of the lot sale 19 Saracens hold your coffee 85 I mean it was just remarkable and I actually felt really sorry for all the good people at sale who do loads of hard work around that place like that is a it's a tough sell that has been for decades to get people to come to watch rugby union at sale particularly on a Sunday when it's City-Arsenal around the corner and the massive contrast between the sort of jeopardy and drama of that game against the one I was at was huge and they produced all these special programmes they've come up with a new marketing strapline, the Northern Force which is all about a story from 90 years ago where a SAIL FC team went to the Middlesex Sevens and beat all the Southern Softies and won the Cup and they produced this lovely video for it It was all about launching season tickets.

6:2490 % of them are reduced in price or frozen for next year. And then the game started. And it was like, oh, my Lord. This team that's sort of cast in the image of Alex Anderson, that's all very northern grit and fight and spirit and physicality, was just nowhere. It was just, it was actually a bit pathetic, some of it. Some of the tackling was really alarmingly desperate. And they gave up. And I think that's what brings us to this big, wide issue about where we sit with this table and with this league. Because it is unfortunate, isn't it, guys, that the season they tell us that the drawbridge has finally been pulled up for good is the season where we get the worst version of the split, which actually hasn't really happened before.

7:10Though it's the third season of a 10-team league with no promotion and relegation and eight teams making the Champions Cup. and we've always had a run in and now we're sort of forcing it into six at the moment, like it's just about six and actually Bristol winning and Exeter losing was good for the Prem because it means that there's still jeopardy in that top four, five, six, otherwise it would have been sorted in April. Well, I was just going to say, Will, that lots of people have been pointing out off the back of this weekend, this is exactly why a franchise competition doesn't work. Charlie?

7:43Yeah, they have. What I would say to that argument is, is the jeopardy over relegation, is that trumped by the problems that the bottom four have had this season and some of them historically, which are debilitating injury lists, coaching uncertainty and a lower spend on their budget. To me, those eclipse what people sort of are arguing is the reason or proposing as a reason behind their poor performances, which is a lack of jeopardy. I'm not having that. I think that those other things are more important and more damaging. And, you know, we have, without this jeopardy over relegation, we have had closer sort of run-ins.

8:27And as I said before, I think there is a wider awareness now. Tony Rowe voiced it in a really good interview with Rob Kitson of The Guardian that he is saying, look, we need more teams. The other thing is with this new investment that is kind of undeniable now, that now seems like a genuinely encouraging trend that we can't deny. We were told that that was contingent on it being a closed league because the threat of relegation was putting off investors. hasn't that been justified now by what we're seeing are we not seeing that that's a price worth paying for this investment oh 100 % mate like I would I'm with you on this and I think we've we've discussed the promotion relegation issue at length and Stuart Barnes would be in the opposite camp to lots of us about there needs to be jeopardy and lots of fans are saying that this weekend but I would say that these blowouts and this what we're seeing on the field I don't think is the fault of the powers that be who've decided at last to make it official that this is the season where we stop promotion and relegation for good I think the two things can be true at the same time the blowouts are not good on the sporting field but also the franchising decision was the right one to make that's that's my view of it and if I were the prem I'd be going around the clubs rattling cages going what on earth are you guys doing you're making us look like mugs here and it's interesting because you think if you're a player I've never been a I've never been a professional athlete I've never been a player and I can see how taking out competitive spirit from some of these matches denudes you massively doesn't it because you go what am I here for what's the point of this if we lose if I miss that tackle why does it matter but it was interesting to me that I'm not sure I've ever seen Alex Anderson as half bereft and half furious as he was after the game so that it matters to him like he's had his pants pulled down by his former club when he's giving it the big sale about this is the north versus the south and they got absolutely walloped and he was there going I'm not going to do a review on Monday but I'm going to interview the players individually and ask them what their motivations are for the rest of this season because they need to find some and they need to tell me what they are right now and I don't care if they're selfish I don't care if it's I want to make a summer tour but they need to find something within them deep-seated motivators was the way he phrased it and actually that's why I think it's now on the players they've this is their profession this is their professional pride this is their careers on the line they've got to make this work like the guys off the field whether it's marketing guys at sale, whether it's the owners trying to sell to people with bigger pockets, whether it's the league reorganising itself, being more grown up, they're doing their bit.

11:19I think it's on a lot of the players, particularly at these lower reaching clubs, who need to pull their fingers out. The one thing in terms of, I agree with you both, by the way, that it seems pretty clear that the franchising has encouraged investment. I still don't quite understand that because we all knew that there was virtually no relegation before that anyway. And surely investors would be able to see that, that you could get relegated. But let's be honest, no one was going to get relegated. So I don't quite understand that. But that clearly is, it clearly has had an impact. And that's why I say we've got this kind of, the positive movements off the pitch and then some of the struggles on it this year.

11:57But I think I agree with you guys. You look at the issue this year in the league has not been caused by the fact that they have decided to franchise and confirmed that there is no relegation and all that sort of thing. The issue is what we touched upon a few weeks ago, which is Sale in particular have dropped off a cliff. Gloucester have dropped off massively. Quinns have continued to not be a club that can rebuild or one that we take particularly seriously. Saracens have dropped off as well. That's the issue here rather than the franchising, I think. But it does seem like a lot of people are looking at this and viewing the franchising as the problem.

12:31So I've got some stats for you here, guys, because Charlie and I were messaging each other on Sunday going like, I wonder if it's just our eyes or whether it's actually statistically true that there have been more blowouts than usual. And what do we think? Do we, I mean, it's hard because you're looking at them and you're going, God, we didn't usually get 90 pointers and 80 pointers, did we? Do we think that it is actually statistically true? I can tell you in a second, but what do you reckon? I'm going to say that I think you're going to tell me actually it's not true, but I'm going to say that it is just because the Prem used to bill itself, didn't it, on the closest league.

13:14And it's not that. They don't say that anymore because it's not that anymore. So therefore, yes, there are more, but I'm also expecting you to tell me I'm wrong. Yeah, well, I've got in my head that they sort of marked the league on a stat that was X amount of games were within seven points a couple of seasons ago. And I've just got Exeter being pumped against Gloucester in my head, Tony Roy sort of laying the law down in the changing room. And then obviously we've had a few this season. But then the way that you've asked that question and without me makes me think that maybe that's not the case.

13:45Well, I've absolutely double bluffed you then because by an absolute country mile, this is the worst season in Prem history for blowouts. OK. OK. So these stats are all from Opta, so thanks to our friends at Opta for that. So games with a 25-plus point margin by Prem season, I've got it for the last decade, and 32.3 % of all Prem matches this season so far have been 25-point-plus margin of victories. It's heavy, isn't it? So one in three are getting a pumping. Yeah, and so compare that to last season was 20%, 19 % the one before that, then 12, 13, 12, 19. In 2018-19 season, there were only 12 matches in the whole season that had 25-point margins in them or more.

14:36And that's the equivalent of 9%. So we've nearly tripled, more than tripled the amount of games that are being blown out. Why is that then? at average margin of victory this year in the prem it's 19.5 and go back to 2018 19 it was 11.2 which was the kind of like closest season of the last decade but it's interesting too because you can then compare that so let's a margin of victory of average of 19.5 so basically 20 points there's an average margin of victory in the prem this season if you compare that to the other leagues and the Champions Cup, it's actually pretty similar. But the one that's closer is the URC.

15:16So the URC's average margin of victory this season is 13.6, which is actually slightly more than the last few seasons. They've consistently, for the last decade, have been quite a closely run league. The Prem used to be really close and now it's blown out, but top 14 is now 18.8 points and maybe that's the presence of Montalban and Perpingon in the league there who get heavily beaten each week. They've kind of been cut adrift for a while. And then the Champions Cup is very, very similar to the Prem. That's an average margin of victory of 19.4, which is actually slightly down on last season, despite Toulouse 77, Sale 7 and all those other ones you can remember.

15:56So it is actually just a consistent theme across the leagues, but it is still an outlier this season in the Prem. Why do we think that is? That's quite interesting, isn't it? at the risk of sounding like a yeah old man sort of shouts at cloud i always wondered if i actually asked a couple of coaches about this after the six nations saying why there's so many trifests is it something to do with gen z sort of concentration levels and they were like no mate you've just got to they said no you've just got to adapt your coaching i think another thing maybe in the prem specifically is how much it is marketed on attack that seemed that certainly seems fair.

16:32But also if you think about the league, so if Saracens, to me, have sort of epitomised the sort of, flakiness is maybe too strong, but sort of the inconsistency with where a lot of teams are, so that they can blow hot and cold. Saracens have been doled out some thrashings, they've actually received some thrashings themselves, and Mark McCall was sort of first to admit that after the Bath game, and that was really harrowing that they sort of capitulated. And maybe that's just, teams are sort of more prone to doing that around the league because maybe because of the onus that's put on attack, I think maybe the bonus point system has something to do with that.

17:15I would love for that to change to the sort of the French system of getting a bonus point if you get three more tries as opposed to four tries because it just blows my mind, Will, that Sale will one try short of a bonus point after you know after chipping 80 on the try scoring thing is statistically significant again that it's just a massive trend across the game that it is going up so tries per game per season if we're looking at prem top 14 urc champions cup if you go back a decade so 16 17 season prem was five and a half tries per match top 14 was just under five quite low urc was just over five as was champions cup go a decade on prem 8.17 top 14 7.28 urc 6.59 champions cup 8.28 so we've added three tries per game on average across all those leagues and they're all going up at the same time like the top 14 was the one that resisted the longest if you look at the kind of progression so even as close as 2022-23 it was still under five tries and average per game but where the The Prem had gone above five a decade ago.

18:28But yeah, it is obvious. We can see it with our eyes, but it also is shown in the stats that people are just scoring more tries and more points. But that is why maybe it brings us on quite nicely, Charlie, to the game you were at, which is one of the best games of the season so far at Sandy Park. Exeter 28, Northampton 35. Northampton winning it with the final play of the game, scoring a try. And actually, there were quite a few tries scored late on in that, weren't there, which meant in the end, you got quite a lot of points. But for a lot of that game, it was quite tight. It felt like it was on a real knife edge, a game that could be swing on momentum.

19:01It was almost a bit of a throwback in some ways, which is why it was so enjoyable, because we are so used to seeing games where it is just a bucket load of tries and wide margins. I mean, it must have been awesome to be there and to be covering that game. It really was. There was quite a long period. It was quite scrappy, I would say, sort of the middle 20 minutes either side of half time. and that was almost like a two sides sort of feeling each other out. Exeter started brilliantly, made Northampton look sort of a bit subdued and look as though that Champions Cup exit, even though they'd had two more days rest between their respective sort of European quarterfinals.

19:38Northampton looked a little bit subdued coming out of the blocks and Exeter really punished them and then Northampton sort of took hold of the game and scored in the last play before half-time to sort of set themselves up for the second half. there's loads to like about that game you're right and actually when you think about the shake up for the top six I think that's huge getting five points at the end of that game with the final play, Exeter weren't massively happy with, there was sort of a bit of a hint of obstruction in how Finn Smith made his break from Fraser Dingwall's offload but huge because I think next week they have Bath in a rematch of that game but it's at Franklin's Gardens and it's all Also, this is where fighting on two fronts is so difficult for the Prem sides because Barth have got to do it and it's difficult.

20:30Well, it's funny you say that because watching that game, it did get me thinking really about the end of season playoffs and how good is it going to be when, you know, I know the fight for the top four isn't as good as it has been in previous years. But it's going to be so great when we get those playoffs and the various matchups and all that sort of thing. I still think the fight for the top four, I am slightly worried that I've shot my bolt with that point because I think there are twists and turns to come in the top two and in the top four. Because two bonus points for Exeter kind of keeps Bristol and Saracens at bay, but it could change.

21:04It really could change. Well, it's really funny this, Will, because I was looking at the run-in for all of the top six over the weekend. And actually, if you look at the fixtures, I think that you could make the case that it's Exeter and Bristol that have the easier set of fixtures. In that Northampton's next three games, I think, are key. They've got Bath home, Leicester away, Bristol home. Maybe quite key that two of those games are home. You look at Bath and actually in their final five games this season, they've got Northampton away, Exeter away, Bristol away and Leicester at home. Which is particularly when you factor in that they have a Champions Cup semi-final in all of that.

21:41And we talk about how important winning, you know, the home field playoff advantage is. I just think it's really, really intriguing when you look at the run-ins that these teams have. Yeah. And if you were to look at them, because I've done a similar thing, I've got them in front of me. And if you look at Exeter, they've got them in quite a nice order as well, because they've got Gloucester next, Bath at home, where Bath will be off the back of the semifinal, whether they've won it or lost it. and then Quinn's away so they've got two of the sort of gone teams Leicester have only got one of them they've only got Sale but they also play Sarri, Saints, Exeter and Bath and Bristol have got two of them as well they've got Newcastle away this weekend and Sale away on the final weekend with Sarri, Saints and Bath in the middle so yeah I think you're right actually but it's but it's it's the intangible thing here there's two bits isn't there there's the bit that Charlie's just mentioned which is pushing on from what he said there of what team are bath going to bring to saints like we sort of want there to be this like next one of the trilogy of these amazing games they've had and then let's hope we have a finish the quartet maybe in the final where it's another unbelievable game but i it was interesting and i think he does this throughout the whole season but he actually articulated it the other day on the telly johan van graan but i think he picks teams quite a long way in advance through the season like i know players really appreciate it because they can pick in holidays and things like that it's like they'll know their month of fixtures where they go okay i'm going to be playing gloucester but not newcastle and he said on the tv the other day that he's basically blocked out the next few weeks and told all the players what match they're going to be playing in so you will it'll be obvious i think because the semi-final side is clearly going to be the gun team and so therefore it won't be for saints this weekend but then you go well hang on bath's sort of one and a half team's quite good as well like it's probably going to have santi carreras in the back line and a hell of a lot of good back rowers in the back in the back row and they i mean i know completely different kettle of fish but they've gone and beaten sail away and all that sort of thing so like it's it's a hard it's a difficult one to judge with Bath because you go on paper they look like they might lose one of those but also their second team is really really strong it's really intriguing though isn't it because because everyone plays everyone is there a possibility where a Northampton or a Bath don't get home field advantage because that then blows the whole thing wide open maybe less so with Northampton because they're out of the Champions Cup two of those three games I mentioned the Bath the Bristol game are are at home you know maybe it falls kinder to them but you know is is there a We've been speaking about it, haven't we, where we think Northampton and Bath are the best two teams in the competition.

24:25They're the best two teams in England. But is there a chance one of them doesn't get home field advantage in the playoffs that all of a sudden you're looking at it and thinking it's all turned up on its head? Absolutely. I think I'm really intrigued by Leicester. I think they are playing Newcastle and they put a score on Newcastle. But I think that follows the trend of how they're expanding their attacking game. George Martin came back, which if he's up to speed by the playoffs, that's going to bolster any full-pack in the world. They are only five adrift of Bath, who, as we say, have got the Champions Cup campaign to contend with.

25:03I think they will really fancy that East Midlands derby at home as well. And I think Leicester will love going under the radar. They've been under the radar all season and they've got now a core of young players that have grown up together who are now used to these big games. For them, outside of the Dan McKellar season, for them, the expectation is top four, as it always is when you're representing Leicester. But that home semi for them, they've beaten Bath at Welford Road, right? At the beginning of the season with Billy Searle's kind of late kick. So they will love the fact that they're going under the radar and still in the rush out with the home semi.

25:38So as a little guide, as we mentioned before, this is the third season where we've had a 10-team league. So we're getting used to this and what is a good guide for how many points you need to get to finish in the top four. And to me, I think we're probably going to get a higher number of points in the top four than usual because of the fact that they're all getting thrashed at the bottom, probably. so in 23-24 Sarri's finished fourth on 56 points pipped Bristol who made 54 and last season Bristol were fourth on 58 and they pipped Gloucester and Sarri's are on 56 so if we look at the table now we've got Bristol who are pretty close to that sort of fourth place mark already at 43 and Chiefs Tigers Bath and Saints are well above it so it's probably going to be likely that You're going to have to get mid-50s and above to get in that top four, isn't it?

26:35Maybe 60s, maybe. So it's where people can find, where can Bristol or Exeter and Sarri's maybe find 15 points? I think more for Sarri's. I think looking at Sarri's, they can maybe be allowed one more defeat, possibly. It's getting close to the point where even Bristol as well, there's very little room for Bristol or Sarri's, maybe Exeter as well, although they've got a slight cushion there. they just have so little room to slip up, which I think is what does make it so intriguing, despite the issues with the league and the lack of jeopardy this year that we've been speaking about already. Will, can we actually finish off on your game?

27:09Because it was the final game of the weekend. I think it is also the one that has produced some pretty major questions for Sale. Maybe we'll finish on that, but a word first on Noah Kalori, who already Sale fans, having never heard of this guy before this season, are just like, oh, not him again. I mean, it's actually ridiculous. It was funny because it's one of those games because of the fact that there wasn't much on the result. You're kind of going, well, what's going to be the story here? Let's hope something happens kind of thing. Because otherwise it's a bit sort of, well, it was 28-13 and that was it kind of thing.

27:43And then you've got sort of two stories in one. You've got Sale being so record-breakingly dreadful, which we'll get on to. And the fact that Kalori's gone and done five again against the same team. and just some of the stats of his season are just completely hilarious so he's got 17 tries this season in eight prem games which is already you need to like take a pause and go sorry what 17 in eight and then if you then just look at his number of minutes he's played 482 minutes in the season which means that he's scoring a try every 28 minutes in the prem which again it's like how's that possible so he's seven clear in the try scoring stakes in the league above freeman and rovovo and others have pointed this out but he's only he's only sam simmons's record for exeter was 21 tries that season when it was kind of a joke how many tries he was scoring for chiefs and calori's calori could do that without playing more than about 12 games which is just hilarious and But also then the other bit was that you kind of going, is it really hard to judge how good he was because Sale was so bad?

28:54And then Mark McCall came in, who, as you guys know, is very keen to dampen hype as much as possible. And he was like, I was actually trying to dampen the hype the last time he did this, but now I can't, basically. And he was like, I've seen a lot of wing performances in the Prem, and that was one of the best ones I've seen for a long time. I was going to ask you specifically about Mark McCall's reaction because I was at the first game and I actually thought some of the tries were sort of more eye-catching than the ones he scored on Sunday. And yet Mark McCall came in and sort of, there's a group of us obviously wanting to talk about one thing.

29:28And it was like he was sort of going, it was honestly pleading, saying please be careful. I think the phrase he used was, we've all got a responsibility, including you, to make sure this guy is treated responsibly as he moves through the ranks. And he's flitted back and forth from Kalori. This is flitted back and forth from Amptill. I know Stuart Barnes wrote something a couple of weeks ago for us saying, why is he at Amptill? Why isn't he playing more? England brought him in. I thought it was really interesting what England did. England brought him into a training squad and said he was a full member when we didn't actually, this was in the autumn, and nobody really thought that he'd actually play.

30:08And then he didn't play and was down back to the A team, wasn't he? Didn't they use him almost as a Suelihi? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he ran as Joseph Suelihi for a week in the lead up to the Australia game, which would have been really good. But I thought it was a little bit risky from England to sort of say they'd brought him in and then dropped him, just from a sort of PR point of view. But clearly it's kept this hunger alive in him. You get teams that ride the wave of sort of where the game is tactically. And he seems like an individual that's doing that because he's so rangy. He's got this spring.

30:42And also he came off, he was carrying a lot in close quarters, I thought, on Sunday, which sort of surprised me how strong he was through contact too. It's always intriguing, I think. I've had a couple of people off the back of that game who like their rugby but don't necessarily watch loads of club rugby. you've both asked me about Noah Kalori. So he is cutting through. I think it's intriguing to see whether we see him with England this summer. You suspect it's difficult. I mean, there's no way you're throwing him in away against the box. That game against Fiji then is a real challenge, the trip to Argentina.

31:12So where he fits in, if he does fit in at all, I think is something that I'm looking forward to seeing. The other question I wanted to ask you, Will, just to finish off here off the back of this game, is Alex Sanderson and his position at sale. And there are, and as we always say, social media is not the best barometer here to judge these things but it does give you a little indication there are plenty of sale fans I think that are suggesting it's time for Alex Sanderson to move on from sale they have got to one final in his tenure they lost to Saracens they haven't won any trophies they have been a pretty consistent side in the top four but have dropped away massively here how much pressure do you think Alex Sanderson is under yeah I think quite a bit but I don't and look I maybe prove wrong but I really don't think that this is the end of the road for him he actually said he was asked a pretty couple of punchy questions after the game about his future and whether he's the right man to take him forward and lots of that sort of stuff and like we've all spoken to Alexander he wears all this stuff heavily heavily and he was like if I think I've lost a group that's a different story and I would walk he's very confident he's still got the team with him but as he mentioned himself it's kind of the alarming bit of it is that he thought he had them well motivated and then they go and deliver that but that is a problem um and i don't think he was shirking responsibility whatsoever but he that he as i said before he was kind of doing that this is on the players to tell me what they want basically from the rest of this season like they've got to come back on monday with some motivating factors otherwise this what's a point sort of thing and with alexanderson they've gone just looking at some league finishes here fifth third sixth second third third and so you sort of think they're in their window we talk about this super bowl window don't we they're kind of you've got to go and win something and they haven't they made a final and they lost the saris in 23 and then they've made a couple more semis and lost them away and always finished in that graveyard slot in third and now they've dropped of a cliff at the same time that Simon Orange and Michelle Orange the owners have sold the business for a billion and so have now got the cash and they've spoken really openly about the fact that they want to sign world-class players which agents probably went oh there you go that's just added 10 percent to the fee there and they've missed out on Martin and Conningham South on Mitchell on a ream of other players I think they were speaking at some point to Will Stewart and Faye Wiboso and aiming really high with some of the people they were looking for and haven't got any of them and because Alex Anderson is quite public with some of this stuff the fans then go well what are you doing whereas if he was almost more guarded if he was more like Mark McCall or Joran Van Graan or someone and just didn't tell anyone any of this stuff maybe he would have there'd be less sticks to beat him with and so as people who listen to him we would prefer him to be open and honest wouldn't we and look I think he's got a really close really really close relationship with the oranges and we'll be going out for dinner with them regularly and things like that and i don't think that it will ever get to the point where he just gets the bullet i think it will be a managed thing and also i guess they're saved maybe by the fact that you look at what's happening next season you go courtney law's arriving for thomas francis arriving nicky smith arriving joe marchant arriving a couple of fijians that's surely going to help and the last bit of it which is a case for all clubs and isn't an excuse but they've just had a savage injury list and it's to basically all their best players as well.

34:39Like they missed the Currys for most of the season. They've got no Cameron Dickey, Djiboulou's banned, no Bevan Rod, Hyron Andrews, Aaron Reid. They've had Roebuck missing for other bits of the season. Basically the only guy who's not been on the treatment table at some point is George Ford and he's not actually been in great form over the last few weeks. So lots of things there but I don't think that Sanderson is suddenly going to get sacked or resign. There was a little pop at Harlequin's in his pre-match interview, actually, where he said we're not the sort of... Because Harlequin's released this really long injury list last week.

35:11And the point that Sanderson was sort of implying was that, well, we could have done that and we haven't. And they're playing each other this week. So market that. It's a dead rubber, but there's going to be a bit of spice. Yeah, absolutely. Well, look, interesting times for sale. Interesting times for loads of the clubs in the Prem, isn't there? Even those at the bottom. And we haven't spoken once again about Gloucester who are struggling and Newcastle and Quinns, who we've spoken about a lot this season, and then the amazing race for that top four. So look, we'll leave it there in terms of the Gallagher Prem.

35:39Up next, we're going to have a chat with Joe Launchbury, who announced his retirement from the sport at the end of the season. And following that, Elgin is going to join Charlie and myself, and we'll look back on the Women's Six Nations.

35:52Just a quick breather to tell you about today's sponsor, Allianz, a partner that's all about opening rugby up to more people. Their support goes way beyond Allianz Stadium. Through the Allianz Future Fund, they've already put over£100 ,000 straight into community clubs across the UK, helping fund projects that bring new people into the game. And with the Allianz Kickstart programme now reaching 5 ,000 schools, thousands of kids are getting their first taste of rugby, some for the very first time. If your local club could do with a bit of a lift, Check out the link in the show notes and nominate them for an Allianz Future Fund grant.

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37:50Joe, great to welcome you on to the Ruck. Really appreciate your time. Firstly, how are you? How has the reaction been to the big announcement last week? Yeah, it's been a really strange week, but a really nice week. I guess, as I said in the post, we've been coming for probably a little while, so not been a huge amount of shock around here. It's been lovely to sort of reconnect with some old friends and old players from over the years. And yeah, it's been nice to sort of have other players be constantly looking at what's next. It's been nice to spend a little bit of time reflecting back on what I guess what I've done over the last number of years.

38:19And the question that we always ask in situations like this is, why now? As you say, it's something that you've been speaking about for quite a while and a decision that I think you made a little while ago, but why now? Why is now the correct time to call it quits? Yeah, a number of reasons, I guess. I was actually quite close to stopping last year. I definitely had some thoughts in my mind around, do I do one more year? Do I not? I was out of contract last summer and there was some debate around, if it's best for me to do one more. I've been sort of battling like a long-term hip injury for a number of years and I know I need an operation on that.

38:52It's kind of mirroring the two up. I also had a desire to play one more year to go and give it another go. So when Quinn's offered me an extra year, it seemed like the right thing to do. But as soon as I signed it, I knew I was signing what was going to be my last year of professional rugby. Yeah, I knew that was going to be, this will be my last year. In a way, it's been so good for me. It's allowed me to, I think I've enjoyed this year. as much as I've enjoyed I've probably enjoyed it more than the last couple of years here I've really enjoyed almost knowing that it's been my last year enjoying things for the last time going to a ground for the last time or sort of last Christmas social all things like that I've enjoyed yeah I've really enjoyed the year in what's been pretty tough circumstances at the club Joe what have been the nice bits that you've had drop on your phone in the last few weeks I guess you're probably looking at your phone when Joe Marler starts tagging you in stuff and going oh no what's this there's been a few times of that um i'll put my my son to bed when i kept getting notifications saying joe miles added you into a story and i knew that probably wasn't gonna be good news i don't know how he got a vault of video from 10 years back ago but he does but that was just really nice to i think it probably shows the importance of of actually verbalizing your feelings about people sometimes i guess as i guess men and and people in general really we're quite um quite still looking on to the next job and sometimes it is nice to show a bit of appreciation to each other and yeah it's meant a lot for me to receive messages from players and coaches that I've spent a lot of time with and it's been really nice to hear their words about me.

40:18What do you look back on, you haven't quite finished yet but if you were to look back on your full professional career what would be the things that give you the most pride and fondness when you look back? I feel so thankful to have played for as long as I have, to have had the career I've had, I've had some amazing teammates and friends over the years who've had their career cut short with injury in their 20s and stuff and I'm finishing so thankful for having a long career and like you said within that I've managed to have some great experiences look back on my international career with a huge amount of pride for a number of reasons firstly get an opportunity to play young um sort of be in trust that I hadn't played that many games for then I was I was 21 I was I was still pretty raw in my in my development we got trusted to play from an age when I probably wouldn't have thought I would have been good enough and I feel like I obviously really took that opportunity and loved my time there and I actually think if I'm probably brutally honest I don't think I've ever when Eddie first took over maybe his complete cup of tea but really really proud of the way I kind of changed my game and I felt like I was probably on my way out a few times and managed to remodel a few things and not necessarily prove him wrong maybe that was part he'll probably say as part of his technique try to get more out of me but yeah really proud for the way I sort of showed a bit resilience during that period and sort of managed to play as many times as I did.

41:29What makes you say that Joe in regards to Eddie that you felt that maybe you weren't his cup of tea at first. What sort of conversations did you have? Maybe not his cup of tea. Like I said, I'm so thankful for the fact that he must have capped me 40 plus times or something like that. I don't think it was best against that, but I always probably felt that I was, and maybe a lot of players in that time, they were constantly being pushed. I felt like I was always kind of one bad game from being out of the team or a couple of bits of bad run. I felt like I was always striving and striving to stay there.

41:59And that's, I guess, what international rugby should be. but that that probably definitely brought the best out of me and maybe at times and in the moment wouldn't have necessarily agreed to that but looking back now I am so thankful for those middle years of my career when some players do plateau a little bit and maybe don't quite kick on to the next level they've maybe tasted international success but to go from sort of 10 caps right through to over 50 caps it takes a real staying power and sometimes it is changing game a little bit I probably went from the type five forward who who really enjoyed the open spaces enjoy carrying the ball enjoy being sort of in the wider channels to kind of remodel in my game a little bit as my time gone on but my body's slowed up a bit um but I've also developed a real appreciation around the set piece and sort of the I guess the the tighter arts of being a tie-five forward I guess it's it's tough isn't it when you retire to go oh but what are all the things you regret it's just a brutal thing to ask but are there a couple of bits where you go like oh well firstly I guess the sadness is there still a lot of sadness with the way the whole wasps thing finished I know it's a lot of water on the bridge since but that was your club wasn't it that was where you built yourself and you were the captain there and everything else do you still look at that and go man what a what an awful episode yeah I think there's no way I can't talk about that experience and and what happened then and not see it as anything but that a horrible effort said really really unfortunate um really sad and those emotions still although like you said a lot of water's passed under the britchett's then i think every time it comes to me to talk about that um as you said it was my club it was a club i i had a huge amount of passion for a huge amount of love for um but yeah i've been there a huge amount of time but as i said at the start time time in rugby you're constantly on to the next thing on to the next job and i look now i probably would never have left i probably would never i probably would have been there my whole career if i'm honest i would have been a one club man i would have played there i don't think much for taking me I had plenty of offers in my playing career to go elsewhere and nothing really interested me so I would have probably stayed there but what it has done is allowed me to go to Japan have an amazing experience um come here to Quinn but have this experience here which has also been a club that also means a lot to me the club I spent my sort of childhood at my competing during the academy was at school so I would have had these experiences if it wasn't so I guess that's my uh glass half full approach to it and I also think you look at the other players from WOS and you go and look at what they've achieved at different clubs, either in the Prem or across in France or in different leagues.

44:24And yeah, I'm really proud of that group of players. I think we would have achieved in what is a really tough league. There's no right to win anything, but I think that team would have gone on and done really well and definitely competes at the right end of the table. But yeah, really proud to see how they've all sort of gone on and forged their career, especially some of those younger players. Yeah, seeing them now, household names for their club, yeah, it brings me a lot of happiness. Do you hope one day that you'll be sitting in a stand somewhere, wherever they end up, and be watching a Wasps team back in the Prem?

44:52Yeah, I guess that would be the ideal for any ex-Wasp player to look back, I guess. You don't want to be, I remember Jimmy Goppers saying, when he's older, trying to explain to his kids, oh, I used to play for Wasps, and the sad thing would be, maybe in a couple of generations, sign your grandkids or your great kids, but we'd be like, oh, I don't know who you're talking about there. There is an element of, you don't want to be the last group of players who have played for the club, I'd love the club to live on, I know there's Worcester City, the amateur team in Acton are still thriving and doing unbelievably well.

45:23They're a great club down there. But yeah, the appetite to bring a professional club back, I believe, is there. But like anything, it's in this climate with the pressure on clubs and the resources and the finances. Yeah, I guess it's a longer term project for sure. Yeah. And on that other thing you mentioned there about the kind of motivational drivers and things like that, I guess it's been a weird season for a lot of clubs this season, hasn't it? with there's been a sort of marked gap between the top five or six and then the rest at the bottom of the league. So how have you worn that with Quinns?

45:55And what buttons are you trying to push to make sure that you finish strongly now? Because on paper, there is really not that much for Sale, Quinns, Gloucester, Newcastle to fight for. But I guess that's the professional challenge, isn't it, for players to keep coming back and having your own sort of things to get excited about? Yeah, it's exactly that for us. like you said the league does seem to split a little bit at the moment there seems to definitely be a bit of a gap between sort of the leading back and us guys and I think first and foremost we will definitely hold our hands up as players with not being good enough this year we've not had anywhere near the level of consistency that you need across an 18 game season we are well aware of that but I do genuinely feel I know it's such an easy comment as a player to make especially a player who is leaving but I definitely feel there are sort of some real green shoots around around this club and where this club can go and in terms of what to play for for the next few weeks there are I can see I can see your point I can see what you're saying but there are numerous things as well to play for whether that be first and foremost the badge and the shirt most important thing uh support was the representative club and we are such a well one of the things that blew me away when I came to Quinns was how well supported they are they're an unbelievably well supported rugby club and we're so fortunate for that I guess the main rugby thing is if we know we have to compete and and be a part of the top tier of Europe next year do we have to finish in the top eight that's rugby wise that's our that's our big drivers if we don't make that that top eight this year then for a club like Harlequin to not be playing the top tier of Europe is is not acceptable so yeah in terms of that there are there are a few little bits for I forget after for sure Joe we've got to let you go but I know I think we've set you a challenge given that you're the announcement you've made of that you're going to be retiring.

47:39And we wondered if you'd be able to name us a starting 15 from all the players that you have played with. And you've had a little bit of time to think about this as we were setting up. Not enough, I'd say not enough time, but yeah, I feel so fortunate to play with some amazing players. I'll give it a quick stab for you. I'll caveat by saying I apologize to anyone, everyone who I've missed off, but I'll go. Lou said I will go between Mako and Marla. extremely close but because marla stitched me up on instagram stories every day i'm gonna go with macko uh lucid hooker jamie george tight head prop will be will collier from harlequins um i think one of those underappreciated tighter props i'll be played with i'll say underappreciated he was loved here at harlequins probably didn't quite get the amount of cap they deserve but he would be my um he'd be my tight head second rose would be it would be uh courtney and marrow two again two brilliant players for England at sort of records built themselves back row would be probably for his time at WOS his impact he had on us when he came in his highlight for real and that's his joke would be Ashley Johnson probably a bit of a bit of a sort of curveball there I just loved he came at a real tough time for us at WOS he came with one of our sort of big signings for a year and I genuinely feel like he was one of the best over three signings that we made seven would be back row is tough if that's not a good player but seven would be probably my mate Jack Willis I think he's taken his game to another level playing in arguably he's playing in one of the obviously one of the best teams in the world which which obviously massively improving him but I just think he's taking his game to the next level and I'd love to see him back here in England compete in Harbour with the amazing back row we've got but he'd been there at seven at eight eight would probably be Billy actually Billy from young days at Wasp he came in as a schoolboy and took to men's rugby like it was the easiest thing ever to then go on and I think for for a couple of years and when we were that sort of peak England years under Eddie I think he was he was the best eight in the world he probably again didn't maybe quite get the credit but he was unbelievable for that period of time eight nine oh just quickly there because like if I'm George Smith and Tom Curry and I'm just like oh Joe you can't say it yeah but that's the problem isn't that that's the problem exactly I could name so many people we've got time in the back your back line was ridiculous yeah I guess it wouldn't differ too much from that wasp back line was unbelievable nine would be tough Dan Wilson played with some of them I played with him during some of his best rugby again could have never quite really properly broke the care of Young's relationship with England but I thought he could have gone on he owned quite a few caps anyway but he probably could have earned definitely a fair few more yeah I'll give it I'll give a lot of it for that Wasp back line.

50:33Robson at nine, Sips was on his day, unplayable at the 10. Having said that, growing up with, I've been lucky to mark us here at Quinn's, 14 Favs. I grew up and played age group right through, so now with them. I'll go with Favs at 10, centres, or Elliot at 13, played most rugby with Elliot. He'd be at 13, 12. If you're doing pure names, I'll put Kirtley Bill there, play at 12. back three Christian Wade for me one of the best athletes I've played with purely so different from me as a player obviously but there were times when nothing was on in the game we were struggling and he would just get the ball and score a try out of nothing but he'd be on one wing Johnny May England great and I'm conscious that I'm the meeting's about to start so I've got to do a fullback for you go on I'll go Mike Brown nice I'll tell you what Joe it's a pretty impressive team we've got to let you go but we really really appreciate your time no problem cheers guys thanks but good to catch up with you both.

51:28Thanks a lot. So thank you once again to Joe Launchbury. Great to have him on the pod after he announced his retirement last week. Back in the studio, Elgin has joined us for a debrief on the Women's Six Nations. Elgin, let's start north of the border, your trip to Murrayfield. Do we want to start with the amazing stuff off the pitch or do we want to start with the absolute demolition on the pitch? Because there are two quite contrasting stories from this game. Yeah, we'll start with the off the pitch because it was a great day for Scottish women's sport full stop because the attendance at Murrayfield of 30 ,000, it was just under 30 ,500, was almost 12 ,000 more than the record attendance for a standalone ticketed women's sport event in Scotland.

52:09You've got to get all those adjectives in just beforehand. So as an occasion at the home of Scottish rugby, you had the lone bagpiper on the roof for the first time for a women's game. It was a great occasion for women's sport in Scotland. However, what then followed was perhaps the Red Roses' most dominant performance I've seen in their 35-match unbeaten run. Well, I was going to ask you this because you have watched a lot of the Red Roses over the last few years. Was that as good as you've seen them? Certainly up there. Surely I was really impressed with their performance. I think so. Numerically, you look at, you know, they beat an Ireland 88-10 at Twickenham.

52:46They beat a part-time Samoa 92-3 at a World Cup. They've beaten Spain in a warm-up 97-7. So there have been bigger wins numerically, but the fact it was at Murrayfield, they were missing seven of their 13 forwards from the World Cup final. They had a pair of 19-year-olds in the pack, one who often plays at lock playing at flanker and one who normally plays at number eight coming on at lock. You had Abbey Burton, who is an out-and-out lock really, having to fill in because of so many locks that are absent through injuries and pregnancies. when you add all that together the fact that they just steamrolled them 84-7 and especially just in the tights the just unrelenting over the gain line forwards and backs the entire for 80 minutes it was just such a dominant performance could I could ask a question about Meg Jones captaincy and the influence of that and what you're picking up because um I'm just she is such a good talker I remember her speaking when she'd just been nominated for the world player of the year last year and the room you could hear a pin drop because she was just so compelling and I just wondered sort of how that's kind of manifesting itself in the Red Roses performances yeah I mean she just had as captain she hasn't changed at all she's always been a real motivating force a real person who drives the energy in the room she's constantly just having a good time basically I think you and I were both in the room before that England Wales game where that was a big moment for So she's got, you know, people will be very aware of her story about losing both of her parents, you know, in the space of four months.

54:16And then coming back to play international rugby, winning a World Cup off the back of that. You know, her dad, you know, growing up in Cardiff with a Welsh dad, English mum. So leading into a Wales-England game, you could expect why someone would want to maybe hide away that type of story. But she just comes out and talks openly about everything. And she talks compellingly about everything. And as captain, she has remained exactly the same. She is still the one that talks the most, the one that's patting people on the back, the one that is driving that energy. And when you've got someone who is not only one of the best players in the world, but also the captain driving the energy, it's just having such a, yeah, it's having a huge impact on the entire team's energy as a result and the quality of what they're doing as well.

55:00Meg Jones is one of those players to me, and England have quite a few of these because they're such a good team that just look, as an athlete, They look so standout in so many games that you see Maud Muir is probably another one who was excellent on the weekend, but they just look a level above so many other players out on that pitch. Charlie, as a tactics man, I wanted to put this to you because you must have been impressed by the England ruck speed. I think in the first half, there was at one point where their average ruck speed was 1.99 seconds, under two seconds for ruck speed. I mean, that tells you everything, doesn't it, about why you end up with the scoreline we got?

55:31I'm really curious about that. What does Lucy Packer clock for fitness tests? She must be, she's remarkable. That's why I asked about Meg Jones, because I'm just, the ruthlessness of that performance in every aspect there. You're talking about something that can maybe get, they've honed in on that as an area that they need to, they want to be so tidy. And yeah, as I say, ruthless, because everything can come off the back of that. And that's where, and I think not, I think in scorelines like that, not getting bored, not allowing sort of periods where you drift. And also how that would have been, I think, a response a little bit from how bitty they were the week before, because they really weren't that at Murrayfield.

56:14Elgin, you mentioned the players England are missing. We know all about that. Scotland are also missing quite a few players, we should mention. But the fact that England was still so dominant, in a way, is this a reflection of the advantages England have through the PWR and just the players available to them? Yeah, I mean, it's a matter of things. So I think of Scotland's 23, 16 of them play in the PWR. So it is very much the world's league in many ways. It's the same with the Welsh team. A lot of them play in the PWR. The challenge that brings for teams like Wales and Scotland is those players aren't necessarily playing a lot, whereas the England players, the big internationals from USA, Canada, New Zealand, they're getting good game time.

56:53Obviously, England have just got, by dint of population, by dint of having the league, this big talent pool, down to their third choice lock pairing. So they can sub people in and it seems to make absolutely no difference to their output. In terms of just where Scotland are, you think all these teams are getting better, but England start already ahead of them and seem to be pulling further away despite already being ahead of them. Off-field impact, it was only three years ago that the Red Roses attracted more than 20 ,000 people to a home Six Nations game. So Scotland have done that now. It was essentially the biggest women's Sixth Nation occasion away from Twickenham.

57:33That is what Saturday was at Murrayfield. So Scotland, in that regard, you could say they're three years behind, but they're just tracking much further than that behind in the on-field output. And England can, you know, England's under-18s, for example, regularly get stuffed by France. It happened last year, it happened this year. so it's not like you've just got a huge sea of brilliantly talented England players at every level that don't wipe the floor with everyone but when you're just subbing in Haini Al-Latoui or Demelza Shorts coming in as 19 year olds and you're feeding them into this incredibly dominant team of players that are probably going to be around for the next four or five years based off their age profile they just get fed in and they rise to that level immediately and they don't look other place at all and that's why the team just keeps on building and growing because they add new people and they just get they rise to the level of what's already there and I've been thinking about it off the back of the game at the weekend of what must it be like to face this Red Roses team because listening to the Scotland camp in the week they they said all the right things which of course you have to do and I'm sure they believe them as well but you're looking at it and just thinking you know what's coming you know how dominant England are sitting here right now and look, things can change pretty quickly in sport.

58:49We know that. It's really difficult to see where a defeat is going to come for England. When is this team's next defeat going to be? They've spoken about wanting to go unbeaten between World Cups because no one's ever done that. And you think that's absolutely possible here. But I just, for everyone else, what must it be like to have to try and prepare and face this Red Roses team? Because as we say, they are so dominant, so impressive, so far ahead at the moment of everyone else. Well, Rachel Malcolm after the game said, you know, we weren't targeting this game. and we're targeting three games.

59:18So they go into the game. There's a huge amount in that though. They go into it knowing that they're looking to win three games really. You can see what you can do against France and there were times where Wales in that first half looked like they might actually run France close. In the end they pulled away in the same way that they did against Italy the weekend before. But yes, you are in a situation where Scotland lost 48 to England at the World Cup and it felt like they actually played quite well and so that's the level of numbers we're at. obviously they didn't go into anticipating losing 84-7 which just showed how much they were just completely monstered on the day so weirdly do we think sorry charlie i know you want to come in there go on no as you can say what was the what was the general demeanor like from scotland afterwards was it sort of a sense of humiliation frustration it did feel like so yeah rachel malcolm and shone the new head coach they were talking afterwards and they did look a bit crestfallen really i think you saw the scenes before the game arriving at the stadium just what a big occasion this was for the team.

1:00:17And then, again, as we say, if they'd lost something like 40-20, 50-20, you'd probably thought, yeah, it's been a good day off the field and a decent day on the field. But they did look crestfallen afterwards with the manner in which they were just completely one-sided on the field. Do you worry about the impact it has on Scotland? Or because, as you say, they target three other games, they know they're probably not going to beat England. It doesn't have as big an impact as you might think losing at home, your big showpiece event, record a crowd for a women's sporting event, all that stuff, 84-7.

1:00:46Actually, they're able to get past it because, you know, there are different championships within the championship. Yeah, because of the way it is, I don't think it's a huge problem for them personally. They won that game in Cardiff in the first round, which again, like we say, the three games they're targeting, that they got that win at the Principality Stadium against Wales. So they're exactly where they thought they would be, even if the points difference is slightly worse than they hoped it would be. Final question on England, Ellie Kildan, her 50th try for England. Ridiculous record. Moving to the wing, Emma Singh at fullback with her best performance in a Red Roses jersey.

1:01:25Permanent switch, do you think, potentially for Ellie Kildan on the wing? It feels like it could be the way forward for the next few years because Ellie Kildan is more of a sort of jinking sidestepping runner. She's the breakout star of this team. But Emma Singh, even without having to do the goal kicking, which is really her super strength, Zoe Harrison was 12 from 12 off the tee. Emma Singh was so solid at the back. She carried so well, hard up the middle, very tall, very different running style to what Ellie Kildan can do. And Kildan was just there out wide, able to finish off two tries. is probably she got a bit more ball in that position than maybe she often gets at fullback as well.

1:02:01So certainly since Abbey Dow has retired and that is a bit of a position on the wing, it does feel like Singh at 15 and Kildan at 11 might be the best way forward for now. And next up for England-Wales at Ashtongate in Bristol this coming weekend, you'll be there? I'll be there, yes. It'll be another big crowd, general sale all sold out. I think just hospitality available last time we checked. So the last time they played there, it wasn't sold out. So again, that's another off-field step forward for the game. Wales will be looking at that thinking, similar vibe to what Scotland had really, where realistically they're not expecting to win and you just hope that it's 40, 50, not 80.

1:02:39Well, I will see you there. I'll be there as well. Charlie, good to have you on once again. Do you know your travels yet for this coming week? TBC, working it all out. Okay, good stuff. Well, we will be back with you next Monday. Do get in touch with us. The email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. OK, get in touch with anything we touched upon in this episode, the domestic stuff or the women's Six Nations. And we'll be back with you next Monday. Before you go, we just want to shine a light on the great work Allianz is doing behind the scenes to support the game we all love. We talk a lot on the Ruck about Premiership stars and England internationals, but every one of those journeys starts somewhere, usually on a freezing morning at a local club with volunteers, hand-me-down kit and a belief that rugby can genuinely change lives.

1:03:23Allianz gets how important those places are, which is why they're launching a special edition of the Allianz Future Fund just for Ruck listeners. They're offering grants of£500 to£1 ,000 to help local clubs become more inclusive, more sustainable and better set up for the next generation. Whether it's new kit, safer facilities or giving young players the space to grow into tomorrow's heroes, this is a real chance to make a difference. Sign up for the Allianz Future Fund, nominate your club and help support the grassroots heart of the game.