Does rugby want R360?

0:15Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. I'm Alfie Reynolds back with Alex Lowe and Will Kelleher. The first time all three of us are together since Sydney. Band's back together, yeah. Good to see you boys, how are you? Yeah, good, thank you. We've just had half an hour talking about Strictly and Traitors. I like the celebrity Traitors and you're not so sure. No, it's not the same. That's the hot take. Not the same. That is our hot take, but we'll leave that there. I was thinking surely all three have been together since Sydney, but I think we've popped up on various different episodes.

0:43Alfie: Yeah, me and you did Twickenham. Then me and Alex did Simon Massey-Taylor and Simon Gillum. And then you've done some zooms with Barnsley and Elgin. and I was on my own last time everyone listened to the pod. For the Northampton episode, which do go back and have a listen, some really interesting chats Will had, in particular I think with Finn Smith, his new contract and how he performed on the line. So there's quite a lot of interesting things he came out with. Maybe this is a nice segue into the Marcus Smith chat we'll have later on the pod, but this England fly-half debate is not going away, is it?

1:16That's going to be an endless, perhaps, debate through November, Six Nations, everything else this season.

1:21Alfie: Yeah, it's certainly going to build. I think maybe even today we'll look at the whole England back line because once you start at 10 you get into the centres you speak about the back three with some of how the players are playing at the moment over the first three weeks of the season which i think is really interesting alex last week you teed up that you were off to exeter to watch the yeah the play terrific good it's really good so it's based upon the book from rob kitson friend and colleague yeah so rob uh i'd recommend the book as well x-men telling the story of exeter's rise from the fourth division to champions of europe basically and it's you know there's so many characters involved in Rob's book has so much depth and detail it's brilliant and then about a year or so ago he got a call from the theatre in in Exeter saying they wanted to turn it into a play to just do it really cleverly and it's maybe helped that I was sitting just across the aisle from Rob Baxter so in all these scenes I was just kind of keeping an eye on Rob and what his reactions were and how he how he remembered certain things and just a smile on his face when the players are put through a pre-season training with the marines like bringing back all of these memories um and what interested me about it was you know last season they were absolutely dreadful and henry slade who does appear in the in the play his character appears in the play talked about how embarrassing last season was and the sort of juxtaposition that at sandy park they're all desperately trying to build a or write a new a new act to the to the play and over at the at the university theater is a reminder of where they have been it's quite an interesting situation Yeah, and events at Ashton Gate on Saturday perhaps didn't exactly bolster Exeter's confidence in where they're heading at the moment.

2:55Alfie: But we'll get on to that. I should say as well, subscribe us to The Times. Do go and read Alex's piece based upon his evening on Thursday in Exeter because the Rob Baxter reaction in particular is really fun. There's one story in particular I'm not going to say. I'll leave you. You have to go and search it out, which made me laugh when reading it. So go and search that out. We'll come on to talking about the Prem and all the action over the weekend, some of the England selections as well. And big, big chat this week. Probably the focus of the pod is going to be on R360. You'd have seen the big news at the back of last week that the major unions around the world banding together, releasing the statement, real movement on this.

3:29Alfie: So that's going to take up the bulk of our conversation. Before that, though, Alex and Will, we got an email in from Greg, who emailed the ruckatthetimes.co.uk. I thought this was a fun way for us to start the pod. He said with the November internationals around the corner, we're getting towards the end of the calendar year. He asked the question, what do you think the big stories will be as the year ends? So not the season ending, as this year ends, as we get to the end of 2025. He put a few in his email. He said the Northern Hemisphere sides will be caught cold again in the first weekend of the November internationals.

4:02Alfie: South Africa are going to state their dominance by beating France and Ireland. And Ireland are going to fall away and struggle. My first hot take is people are going to get annoyed when there's no Irish player in our World 15 at Christmas. Only joking. There's going to be Dan Sheehan, surely. So I think I agree with most of that. I think England could definitely be caught cold week one because... Definitely. So Australia are going to be missing a number of key players for their game against England at Twickenham. Lennie Kittau, Tom Hooper, Will Skelton are all unavailable because the game's outside the window.

4:36But England will be coming in with no prep. So I think there's a danger for England, even with the Wallabies missing some key players. Carter Gordon is back in the Wallabies set-up. Straight back in? Straight back in. I mean, announced within a couple of hours of each other, him rejoining Rugby Union from the NRL straight into the Tour squad. I think, and I can understand why they've done it. They need a 10. Yeah, it's been an issue. They need a 10 that they can build a team around. He is a class player. He just hasn't played very much rugby of either code recently. But I can see why they've fast-tracked him in.

5:05So I can see England being caught cold. Yeah, I can see South Africa reserting their dominance. If you want to be kind of playful about the question, the big storylines before the end of the year, I think I can see Owen Farrell becoming a storyline before the end of the year. If you want to be playful, that wouldn't be my prediction. I actually don't think, as we sit here right now, he'll be in the England awesome squad. But if you want things that are going to, that would be big storylines by the end of the year, Owen Farrell being recalled, would be a massive story. And then the other one would be Ireland have such a challenging autumn campaign.

5:37The All Blacks in Chicago, Australia, Japan and South Africa at home. By the end of November, the narrative that started to creep in through the Six Nations about this island team and the desperate need to refresh it and rebuild it could have really taken hold because they've set themselves up for a really challenging time. Yeah, I think the island one is interesting. Maybe we won't have a definitive answer on it until the end of the Six Nations, the end of the season itself. but it is fascinating how the team that has dominated the six nations and then the lion squad evolve or develop or deal with literally getting older over the next few years because you would imagine that most of them will try and cling on for 27 those who are 33 and above now some 35 and above if you're talking like bundyaki can they find someone who replaced them or will they not and therefore step down a level and therefore who grows around them and is one of those teams england perhaps and so i think that's one for the end of the year i mean sort of endlessly fascinated i might try and do a piece on this at some time so it's 10 years on halloween it's 10 years since the all blacks completed their dynasty the 2015 world cup where they smashed australia at twickenham to win back-to-back world cups the the endless debate now is are the box as good as that all blacks team who i can't remember the stats off the top of my head but it was something like they went through 54 tests and lost three in however many years that was won two world cups all that jazz they didn't quite have a line series in that period they had one just after they drew as we know but the box have sort of ticks off the same achievements but haven't been viewed in that same pantheon of great i mean obviously they're a great team but They haven't been seen as, oh my lord, the All Blacks of 2011-15 were just unbeatably amazing.

7:34And the Bucks haven't been. They have lost. They have won a Lions Series. They've won two World Cups. They might win a third World Cup. So I'm interested to see how the Bucks come up to Europe. Because they won the Rugby Championship by rotating their team.

7:46Alfie: Well, I think that's the thing when you compare the two teams. The All Blacks side were so dominant in between World Cups. And South Africa have been very, very good and even fairly dominant in between World Cups. I mean they've done back-to-back rugby championships, they've won a Lions series, but they are always trying to build for the next World Cup, which means they always have a couple of games where they rotate, they don't play their best side, they might drop a couple of games here or there because they're happy to do that if it means they win the next World Cup. I think through the Rugby Championship gave all their 10s two games at least.

8:14There was a good graphic I saw on social media the other week when they won it, which looked at how the 15 has changed. and in all the key positions, the 9, the 10, where you usually go, you've got to have a settled half-back partnership. They've changed it every couple of weeks, which is clearly looking towards 27. But they've done that thing that's almost impossible in Test Rugby of winning now and developing for the future, which everyone gets frustrated about when people go, oh, I'm developing for the next World Cup. And you go, no, just win now. They're kind of doing both. Because the periods between World Cup wins, you couldn't compare that period with that All Blacks team.

8:50I mean, this was the first time they'd run back-to-back rugby championships, whereas New Zealand dominated that competition through that era. But they're almost using a potential weakness of the 12-month calendar year that South African players now have to play. So they've just kind of embraced the challenge of it and gone, right, well, part of the rotation is about depth, and part of it is just about managing player load, because they can't play 12 months a year because they won't make the next World Cup if they do that. So they have to manage them a bit. But in recognising the need to do that, they've gone, right, well, let's make sure that if we lose Sascha Freyberg and Goumouzouli, we know who the next 10 is going to be.

9:27Or let's see how many different positions Damien Valencia can play and boss it. Because he was unbelievable in the rugby championship in different positions, you know?

9:37Alfie: Yeah. I'd say maybe a possible story at the end of the year is I'm still fascinated by the Wallabies. in that it feels like it is quite an important November for them in that we had the Lions tour where they were really poor at the start of it. They built into the series but lost it and lost it in the first two tests by the time we didn't get a decider. They then have had some brilliant results. I mean, that win at Ellis Park was unbelievable against the Springboks, but then they've still lost both games against the All Blacks. They lost one of their matches against Argentina as well. So I still kind of have questions of exactly where is this Wallabies team as we look ahead in what 20 more by the time we get to the end of the year 20 months out from a home world cup joe schmidt's going to be leaving so it feels to me like a potentially a make or break november for australia in that we a lot of our hopes could be confirmed in that yes this is a team that has turned a corner that are really onto something that are building that could be in a really exciting place at home world cup or is it still going to be a team that you look at and say yeah on their day they're good but they're so inconsistent we're just not quite sure whether they're going to be those guys at home world cup that can really make a run for it could you substitute australia for england and give exactly the same answer about this november definitely because yeah i i think that the the steps forward that they made in the six nations and the really promising tour of argentina means that there's a sense of optimism around where this england team is going but it's yet to be kind of rubber stamped if you know what i mean like they could go through this autumn with three wins out of four say and it feels like they're taking another step into the six nations uh well thank you for emailing greg if any of you do want to get in touch the email address is the ruck at the times.co.uk up next we'll get on to r360 no doubt that's going to be a big story as we head into the new year as well what's the latest what on earth is happening and how important were last week's developments so r360 last week the major unions basically came out with a joint announcement and said they would block players who signed for r360 from playing international rugby they say it could be harmful to the health of the sport a big development in this story alex and will supposed to kick us off why have the unions banded together and why now in particular if they come out with this statement and this stance alfie so many questions here mate so R360 as a very brief recap is is an attempt to establish a global franchise series that would recruit the best players in the world to go and play for city teams essentially eight eight men's franchises four women's that would travel Grand Prix like F1 style play a round of matches in a different city each week they're trying to appeal to a new audience uh the kind of the big event audience they think it'll open up new investment and accelerate rugby's growth and tap into a commercial potential that they believe rugby has that isn't being isn't being explored by the establishment at the moment i think the unions have in this unprecedented statement and it's eight of them plus wales who agree but aren't in a position to formally say they agree because of their own their own consultation process that could see the professional teams halves in wales and therefore a lot of Welsh pros might need somewhere to go and play.

12:56So they've been slightly more cautious with their language. But the other eight have all come out very strongly against R360. Why now? I think because the narrative so far has been driven by the people trying to set up this new competition. The unions can get in ahead of it now because nothing's been formally announced about R360. Nobody who's working on it has spoken on the record other than Mike Tindall on his own podcast quite dismissive about the Prem but no one's actually launched it or announced it so I think the unions have come together now as a show of strength against a league that because there are so many unanswered questions around it and that's a very

13:34Alfie: long way to answer your question yeah but I think that's the whole thing right there's a lot of questions here there's a lot we don't know a lot we're trying to piece together is it and so ultimately by protecting international rugby they are protecting their bottom line because that is the money generator they're standing up for the establishment right so they are i guess less protecting international rugby because england's position has always been you have to be in the premiership yeah so england's position doesn't change but it's the other nations have have aligned themselves with england's position with relation to r360 to protect international rugby but it's really protecting the structures below it so just for example there's no information out there about how any money generated from r360 might filter down through the the pyramid so the general sense is that they will pay so let's just say henry pollock signs for r360 northampton would would get some kind of a compensation compensation payment but the actual detail of that isn't out in the general public domain we don't know what that looks like or how much that would be and so I think the unions have come together to try and protect the ecosystem below the international level because in their statement they say we don't know who produces the next Henry Pollock.

14:50Do Northampton invest in producing the next Henry Pollock if he's just going to go and play R360? Will R360 end up developing the next Henry Pollock? The union statement said they don't have any answers to those questions.

15:01Alfie: I feel like there's a point to be made there that we've also seen unions or certainly the RFU that have cut community coaches and loads of other stuff in terms of the grassroots game recently as well. So it's not like they've always done the best in terms of the grassroots game. How big a blow will is this for R360, the statement last week and this development? I personally think it's huge because the success of this tournament lives and dies by the quality on the field. As much as it's pitched as a sort of big event thing where you can come and watch Taylor Swift and, I don't know, motor racing cars going around oh and by the way there's some rugby on the rugby is the thing that is going to drive people to buy a ticket in dubai or boston or miami or london or cape town or wherever they're going to play these matches and if the quality of the players is poorer than it could be why would people go so therefore i think it's an absolutely huge blow because we knew the established order of the rfu the nzru and the irfu particularly who are very keen and always have been that you play in this country and therefore you can represent the country whereas some nations like south africa have not had that system and australia similarly they've fiddled with gitto's law haven't they about i mean will skelton misses the odd game and stuff like that we know a lot about that and they also have said no when actually you think there is a world where it would suit them so you think for all of them to cobble together the the biggest the strongest they and we should mention the one the other one that didn't sign is Argentina and you can see why because they don't even have a professional league at home so it might suit them but for that for these is as you said this is unprecedented that the top unions of the world all agree on something let's say and they all agree to say no and stick two fingers up to this new idea and look people on the r360 side or people who don't like the traditions of the game perhaps might say that is so classic rugby to have one creative idea come along and try and bin it immediately but i feel like if you're keen on the establishment of rugby and keen on everything they've they represent you would go why would we try and sort of collapse all the edifices of the sport that we've built for so long for a quick buck after the women's world cup final i asked alan gilpin the world rugby chief exec about r360 particularly around the women's game their plan is to have four professional teams and obviously the red roses are key to this and and gilpin's response to my question was the world cup had shown there was no need to strip down the the current the structures of professional rugby internationally but that the investment and the commercial drive that someone like r360 could bring to the game could be really valuable providing it fits into the current landscape but this was particularly for the women's game and i think there's a separate conversation almost because it's the women's pro game is so young and so new and it isn't bound by a lot of the same structures that it's probably more scope for a new competition to be set up in the women's game than there is in the men's game there's probably quite a few unions isn't there that who haven't funded their women's programs in the way england have yet that would be quite keen for a lot of money that's what i mean essentially and that was my question to gilpin was would you see a new competition with four elite teams as a good thing or a bad thing for the development of the game because it would just if it's the four teams with the four best four squads of the best players in the world you're all you're going to create a gap even an even bigger gap between the best and the rest and realistically those four pro teams would be if you had the choice of everyone would be red roses canada new zealand and and france and not welsh and not anyone below it irish you'd increase you'd increase the gap so but it was interesting that i found the tone about the women's game quite interesting that it was almost like that yes we do want to work with you but we're not we're not collapsing everything that we're trying to build in terms of wxv and six nations but there could be a place for you in the men's game the tone is so different and it was interesting that that statement didn't come from world rugby came from eight unions who had collected together and i and the reason they're giving is because they don't have any enough information about how it could benefit the pyramid in each of their countries and help um help grow the game commercially at lower level but help trickle the funding down to the to the bottom of the so we'll get on to some of these big questions in a sec but i feel like the strength of the rf i mean the wording of the statement was identical across all the unions because they all signed it so that was the same but i feel like the rfu are coming from a place where they're maybe more concerned about the women's club game than they are everything else because they've spent so much money and like actually lost loads of money creating it almost like altruistically creating this thing for the world to make where there wasn't broadcasting there there wasn't a structure and they've just gone we're going to just go and do it and lose loads of money basically take it from the pot that was used for the championship kind of wasn't that basic but nearly a bit like when you're doing the budget which we're all worried about in november where if you're right we'll take some from defense and we'll put it into something else health or whatever they kind of did that with no less money for the champs so we'll establish a massive women's game so if this r360 thing comes along it's complete it's a direct challenge to that club rugby and r360 have been determined all the time they want to be alongside international rugby they want to avoid international windows everything else so that players can play and we know now that the unions say no thanks for that as well but it is definitely a direct challenge to the club game and so the rfu i think are desperate to protect their finances basically as much as everything about what they've done which is all nice and lovely and shiny and positive about the red roses it's like no no this is a financial investment that we've put in we've chucked millions at this and then it's just going to be collapsed in two years because all the best players are gone the strength the rfu's view comes from trying to protect the women's game as much as anything else is this the start of real legal wranglings are we heading for court of arbitration of sport territory here because it reminds me a little bit of what we've seen in well other sports in particular football recently it's been in the news that serrera and la liga have tried to take games overseas and uefa have blocked it and then they've taken it to the legal proceedings that have said you don't have the right to be able to do this are we heading this way how much right do the unions have to be able to to do this well i don't think so alfie because no player has a right to be selected for their country and i suppose we would have had it previously like england players could have kicked up but they they never have gone that route as we'll said earlier ireland the the situation is well known to the players you know when when so finn smith has just re-signed with northampton our understanding is where he was definitely a target for r360 but let's say he was also a target for Toulouse.

22:05Jack Willis is a great example too. His decision is, do I go to Toulouse and give up England, or do I stay, but I get to play test rugby for England? And in the window for Lions, which Willis basically sacrificed that as well. They know the situation. What you're saying is, is it a restraint of trade? Yeah. That's never been challenged legally by anyone, and if anyone was to challenge it, it would be someone like Jack Willis. and I think it comes down to the fact that selection for an international team, you're not guaranteed it. If you look at, so Finn Smith re-signed, so George Ford is re-signing with Sale.

22:43Finn Russell re-signed, this was already being discussed and around when he re-signed with Bath. So I think you're seeing players who would definitely be wanted by R360, at the very least going, I'm going to wait and see what this looks like, I'm going to wait and see. Now, obviously, R360 wanted to come in at the top and go, bang, here are 150 of the world's best players. I don't think they can launch with that because I think too many players, even before the union statement, were going, I'm just going to wait and see. And now you've got this union's position, multi-union position. I still think R360 will launch.

23:20Alfie: Yeah, I was going to say it's still, their plan is still to get World Rugby approval next June and then launch October. Start in October. On a Friday night, early October next year. I still think it'll happen. So it's not a fatal blow. It's a hammer blow to them because they can't launch with the very best players. But they could launch, they can launch with a core of the best Argentina players, Fiji players, Samoa, Tonga players. Georgians, maybe. Yeah, a few props from Georgia. Welsh. I think the Welsh situation would be fascinating because that situation, they're ripe for being targeted. And then I think you're going to look at the fringe internationals from South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, who might ordinarily have gone to France or Japan.

24:04They could be signed up easily by R360, but you won't get the frontline All Blacks, frontline Springboks, frontline England players. Irish as well. Irish too, yeah. Basically frontline Lions, therefore. Yeah, yeah. So I'd like to dwell on the Welsh point for a second before we move on to all the other stuff. But because I think, as Alex has said, that's, I think if R360 are going to make this work, Wales is where they can make it work. Because it's a direct challenge to like the history, the culture and the traditions of the game and almost presents a moral question to rugby union. And it's similar to what we've always said about Fiji is like, are you prepared as rugby union to let Wales die?

24:47one of the great nations that love the game more than anyone else for the success of the whole sport are you keen enough to just go well if they can't get it right we're not going to help them or do you go man we can't lose Wales as a nation and so that's where I think R360 have gotten in there because they already have a low cap bar for playing abroad and representing Wales so they can't be very stringent on that front they don't know how many clubs they'll have in future because they're going through this consultation process and there is a scenario where the entire welsh test side signs for r360 and therefore they have to pick them because they don't have anyone else yeah they literally can't have a super rugby cymru team go to the world cup and i think that's that's what r360 have been trying to achieve with every nation the idea that if they can sell the players a dream a vision for for a revolutionized game of rugby where they can only play 16 17 matches a season the top 40 can earn a million dollars a year so it's more money shorter season better player welfare because because of that which is what r360 are selling that they i think they were hopeful or intent upon gaining a critical mass of players in each of these nations so that it's but it's now much easier for them to gain that in wales as will says I think they wanted England.

26:10Let's take England. If, in the 23 that Steve Borthick wants to pick against Australia, the first game in November, 13 of them have signed for R360, can the RFU maintain their policy of not picking England's 13 best players and still selling tickets at Twickenham for what's become a sort of England-slash-England-A selection? Puts the pressure on. puts the pressure on now going back to your your early question what i didn't include in my long rambling answer was was that you know that one of the reasons the the unions can want to act now is because they i think they can sense that r360 they either know they're not going to get there or they're worried they might get to critical mass so they've come in hard and gone this ain't gonna

26:56Alfie: happen one other thing we mentioned right at the top of this chat was all the questions that we don't have answers for so what are the big questions that you think r360 need to answer well just before we do that i'd love to do a couple of minutes on if i'm a player why would i go to r360 because i think that's fundamental to this whole thing and i was interesting i was chatting to a mate about this and he made a good point about the money on offer so the idea alex is just the pitch to the players from england let's say because everyone's in a slightly unique situation is you could earn a million pounds a year to play fewer matches you could play at the start they're going to try and play 12 rounds that's it april to september done and you can also play test matches so now we know that that that bit isn't going to happen you can't play r360 and test matches so already you'd one rung down then you're saying okay so a million pounds for 12 matches then if you were to have played the 12 and then the tests you actually end up playing about the same amount of matches you'd get anyway because you're ending up playing 10 tests or so a year 20 odd matches a season anyway so it's it's the same amount of matches as you'd largely play for your club and country these days anyway not an england player these england players are butting up against 30 matches a year sure but so like ollie chess and played 23 24 matches last season including with the lions so he'd have the same amount of match and he was injured for some of them so that's why he was a bit less so let's say so they're earning a million quid so if i'm finn smith he's probably not hit his contract peak yet he's probably had a very good bump at 23 lions fly half england fly half but his top contracts when he's 29 is going to be him earning what 700 grand a year 750 800 grand a year for saints only then he gets his 150 for england central contract so he's butting up against a million quid a year and that's without signing endorsements with any sponsors and anything else so then you're saying okay now now you can come and play for a million quid a year and sacrifice test rugby to me if i'm finn smith that's a totally unattractive proposition that's where i struggle with the whole the money thing which is the big attraction because i don't think the money is big enough for people to go i'm just going to torch everything because that money is so huge i cannot say no but it's big if you if you have international rugby alongside it but now we know they don't no i agree that's why it's a it's significant so one of your big massive unwieldy questions alfie and there are lots and we'll try and go through as many as we can are related to the player thing which is around the logistics our understanding is that they want to play like a traveling circus and it's been explained to me that they'd like to drop in to places like the nfl have in london this weekend and like formula one do around the world and clearly the response to that is i love that you're shooting for the moon but you've just compared yourselves to the nfl and formula one the two richest sports in the world alongside the ipl which is the other thing they compare themselves to and you think okay love the ambition but these are billion billion billion billion dollar industries but park that for a second so now you're asking players to travel around the world and the 12 weeks aren't going to be consecutive because they'll have gaps and they wanted to leave windows for test rugby albeit now we know that lots of the test players won't be in it so if you're finn smith let's use him again who's not signing for it you're saying i've got he doesn't have any kids at the moment so maybe that works or you're single you're a henry pollock and you're just saying awesome i'm in madrid one week to buy the next cape town the other happy days brilliant if you're finn russell you're going i've got two young daughters in bath and i'm about to get married don't fancy that and our 360s point would probably be like yes but you're only away for like 12 weeks it's not very long if you go on a Lions tour you wait for two months at a time if you're at the World Cup you're two months for a time but all that but if you're thinking about a season that they wanted so you go R360 Six Nations R360 Summer Tour R360 November R360 you know I mean there's never ending and they'd have breaks and everything else but you think does that suit a lot of the best players in the world to leave home basically and they've said look you can base yourselves on whatever country you like but you would imagine lots of people base themselves in the uae dubai because you can get to places quite easily from there and the tax benefit is there but that's one thing that i i don't understand the player side of that and the second bit of it is all of that traveling circus stuff will cost them untold millions so the lions for example if we compare them to an elite team which is they they would want their teams to be had 90 people with them flying around australia and the and the third bit of that which someone was telling me who let's say is from the establishment so would possibly make this point but i think it's a fair one is if they're trying to break america which everyone tries to do and the understanding is that some of the places want to play are places like boston and miami the marketing cost to start from zero is tens maybe hundreds of millions to just get people aware of him it's it's interesting like you look at the grand prix in miami and f1 in a similar way having to break into an american motorsport world which already has indy car and all that and they took the grand prix to miami and you know patrick mahomes is there and jay-z is there and they've brought in probably at some cost some of the highest profile most glamorous people in american culture because that's how you that's how you drive the attention to it can you can they get those those figures to a weekend of rugby so other significant questions that that we don't have answers to we don't know who's funding the whole competition where's the the seed money come we're aware of one investor 885 capital who are based in the uae yes and fund celebrity influencer sport like Baller League and a bit of European American football and stuff like that so they are seemingly involved but they're the only name so far but again they haven't announced it no one's announced that that's just info that we've garnered we don't know who the franchise owners are so the eight men's franchises are being bought independently the four women's certainly the plan was to keep them in house and grow that to then sell My understanding is that those investors include individuals or groups with connections to Premier League football, F1, major American sports franchises.

33:40But we don't know who they are. So just in terms of questions or things we don't know, we don't know who owns these franchises. We don't know where the funding is coming from. I was down in Exeter on Thursday, as you mentioned earlier, talking to Rob Baxter. And Rob Baxter raised a few questions that the players don't seem to have the answers to. such as does each team have its own medical and therefore much more personal medical teams who know each player's situations or is it one medical team to cover eight franchises because that's how you do it to save money and to have fewer people traveling but then does that what what is the impact on of that kind of level of care on on the players again is a question that Rob Baxer posed he says that no players have the answer to yeah I mean there's so much isn't there I think the

34:24Alfie: money point is a really important point and something that when we were at the tnt head offices towards the end of last season will like the top guys there were saying of how on earth is this going to be paid for because you don't have to get too far down the line before it's going to run into the hundreds of millions before you're even bringing anything in so how they pay for it i think is key i know we could go on and on or there's just so much to get into that we could be speaking about this for a long long time if i can wrap us up i suppose does rugby want our 360 because look I have no love for this idea I don't think it's aimed at me I don't think it's aimed at the three of us I don't think it's particularly aimed at probably most people that listen to this podcast so I'm not particularly enamored with it but there is also a part of me that thinks if you've got some pretty big heavyweights chucking big who are willing to chuck big money at the sport should you not be trying to find a way that that works and I have a slight fear that the big unions and world or whoever it is kill this off and then next year in two three four five decade down the line we're sat in the same sport with the same issues and you look back and say but you had people that wanted to put hundreds of millions into this rewind to 1995 the similarities are incredible so the game is just turning professional at the 1995 world cup all the players are being offered contracts for a global franchise competition and all the players had signed it and it was ed griffiths formerly of saracens who that point was at the south african rugby union who helped persuade the new world champion springbok team to turn and sign with south african rugby union and that set off a domino effect so once the box was signed then everyone else signed and the union the establishment won that that power battle right at the death and Rupert Murdoch invested$350 million, I think it was, and Super Rugby starts and the Tri-Nations begins on the back of this tension that could have completely changed the whole face of rugby.

36:31But it did change the whole face of rugby because the counterbalance to the more going off to a global league was that Murdoch has come in, he's seen Lomu plays like, get me Lomu, we're going to do this. And professional rugby in the Southern Hemisphere launches a year ahead of the Northern Hemisphere with the Tri-Nations and Super Rugby, which for the next decade, certainly Super Rugby, was sensational. So does the game, the establishment does not want R360, but does it need R360? I would argue, yes, it does. Whether that means R360 launches or whether it just forces the game to make bolder, quicker decisions on how it monetizes itself, how it generates new audiences and how it presents itself and I think we're already seeing the impact of that whether you agree or not with the club world cup that sat on the table for at least five years without anyone ever coming to an agreement on it at least five years within months of R360 being reported by us and others they'd agreed on it and I know for a fact in the meeting where they agreed on how to structure the club world cup it was put to them that look how quickly r360 is growing look what they want to do and you guys have taken five years to get nothing over the line i think maybe the most fundamental question for r360 is how are you going to do this without killing the rest of the game because their view and their vision is to be nice partners to be friendly to to not chase players who've signed pre-contracts for legal issues and everything else and to go alongside Test Rugby and everything else.

38:09And you speak to people who work for them and they say, if we don't do this, we won't grow the game globally. It's about taking rugby to the next level, all that sort of stuff, which is all brilliant, grand vision. But at the moment, I feel like the only read you can have at the moment about their plans is that it will bomb club rugby, which is already struggling. And they use it as a stick to beat the sport with. They say, look at Cardiff, look at Wasps, look at all these clubs losing all this money in the uk it's a disaster it's a basket case the only times mark tindall has actually had the balls to talk about it has been in that sort of language hasn't it but you're going okay so what your what your plan seems to be doing is to really kill it off so you can have the best talent so how i don't understand how that grows the game because and it goes back to the thing we started with the reason why the rfu and others wanted to bat against this is if you take the cream off all the talent everywhere around the country why would northampton saints have an academy why would harlequins grow the next marcus smith why would saracens put money into noah calori's future because then they'll just get taken off by r360 and therefore the products in the prem dies people don't want to pay money to watch it on tv or in grounds etc etc etc it goes and what i think is ironic at the moment and they will argue look yes there is a plan we just can't tell you what it is yet is what i feel like it sounds like they're doing is establishing exactly the system they're trying to rail against which is a small group of rich owners having these teams privately and the money not coming into the game and when that owner gets bored the team dies so yes they might be bigger companies with deeper pockets and not individuals who are just sort of like altruistic philanthropists like the likes of Peter Thomas or Bruce Craig or people like Nigel Ray and people that who basically established some of these big clubs you say how how are you going to make that money trickle back into the game because if it's staying in the pockets of these big blue chip companies and among the players of these 12-8 teams I don't see how that benefits everything down to Teddington under 12s and all that which is why all these unions are desperate to try and kill it off and and of all the information we went through a lot of the logistical questions the biggest bit of missing of information which we don't have which i think would change the picture for r360 in the eyes of the public is how they do how they fund the pyramid below them because they care about it but they have to but if they don't care about it then then they're looking at they've got like a 10-year plan and that's it because where do the next players come from when Finn Smith retires who's next because as you say Saracen the RFU deal with the premiership would have to change because that suddenly wouldn't be the the England players wouldn't be there that wouldn't be the top level anymore the academies that are run by the premiership clubs that are funded by the RFU they wouldn't exist any the whole landscape would change if the funding doesn't trickle down I think if I was R360 I would want it known pretty quickly what benefits, basically counter the statement made by the unions.

41:24This statement is pretty emphatic that the unions say they don't have any information about how it will benefit the wider game, as you say it will. And if I was them, I'd have come out already and gone, no, no, okay, here is our plan. But I haven't even launched it yet, so I find it weird. And I would say to this, that this is a call to our 360, anyone who's listening to this who works for our 360, and we talk to some of them, including Mike Tindall and everyone else, like if you if you've got something to shout about and own it like if you're going to launch this thing own it like put your face to it come out tell us all about it and i'm sure there will be plans to do that but come on our podcast be challenged be open to all of these questions because you're going to need to at some point and you might not be ready to yet that's absolutely fine but you need to at some point own this new competition rather than it all being off record briefings and dealt with in the newspapers as you said alex the only reason anyone knows about this is through us a lot in the media.

42:20Alfie: So show your faces, guys, and tell us what your plan is. Welcome on the pod anytime. So a lot of questions, maybe not too many answers at the moment, but we've been meaning to kind of do a longer discussion on R360 for a while, and off the back of the news last week, we thought now was a good chance to do so. So despite the fact there might not be too many answers to a lot of those questions, hopefully it's still been worthwhile. Next up, we will finish this week's episode with a look back on the Prem over the weekend. So third round of the Prem. Bath the only side now that have won all of their games.

42:53Alfie: They beat Gloucester 38 points to 17. Stuart Barnes writing in the paper the most complete Bath side that he's ever seen. Pretty high praise. I've just thought of this and it won't happen. But is it possible for Bath to go through the season unbeaten, do we think? It's funny you say that because I was trying to look up what the best record is in a Prem season. No one's done an Arsenal Invincible job. I reckon it must be two or three defeats, is it? We've obviously had a couple of teams losing every game, Welsh and Newcastle. With rotation and injuries and stuff like that, you think, oh, yeah, very unlikely to happen.

43:28At some point, you have an off day, don't you? You would think. But there's so much depth and quality. It's just hilarious when Carreras and Harris come off the bench and Barbary, and you think, oh, what? And Finn Russell's playing his first game back and still is a genius, obviously. and their back resources are stacked. Henry Arundel's playing like he's on Jonah Lomu rugby. He's got speed boost and then his sidestep. As we said, I think last week, Arundel, when he played for England, wasn't a complete player and it didn't work out for him in Paris. There are developments he needs to make in his game and has needed to make.

44:08But there is no substitute for pace and footwork and he has that in abundance. The speed that he displayed at the weekend was frightening. Yeah, they look scarily good. They probably are going to slip up somewhere or have to send a rotated team up to someone around Christmas, for example, or have a period where they just get a run of awful injuries. How many teams have got 15 players out injured at the moment and Bath aren't one of them? They've just been lucky, I guess, on that front or managed them well, whichever way you look at it. I wonder whether their plan would be to sprint in the league to a point where they know they're secure of a play-off.

44:48Because the only way that any English club can have a hope, really, of competing for the Champions Cup and the Prem now really is to... Drop a few Prem games, basically. At the back end, probably. If you accelerate into the season and you get yourself into a very strong play-off position early, then when you get into knockout games in europe towards the end you can start really rotating because you don't the prem games aren't as valuable at the other end of the the scale i

45:19Alfie: suppose is newcastle that had a bit of a brutal reality check on friday night against sale which we may be expected we spoke about it last week alex about getting rid of steve diamond and you and i thought it was a bit of a foolish move barnsey was a little bit more understanding of it can i jump very quickly on that one because i enjoyed listening to you all on that the other week but the one thing i wanted to add is that it feels like whether they're going to make that decision or not early on it's just totally punctured all the positivity yeah around the place definitely so that if you're a player now you're going what are we playing for what are we here for what's happening why why why am i battling at sale 50 points down where you'd imagine i'm not saying alan dickens is a bad man manager at all but i'm saying that steve diamond was a very good man manager he would go here's something to fight for this week this is a challenge for you that week yeah whereas it seems like you're just drifting for another year that's what i said when barnes he was like well has he you know does he deserve to stay i was like he's had to try and keep those guys interested for two years yeah just this is a journalistic aside but there's no better part of which to make it but red bull's attitude towards that really bothers me the fact that they've bought a club in the in the prem and they're not nobody from red bull is prepared to say anything about why they've done it what they want to achieve from it um what their vision is for the future they're not engaging with anybody at all and the one the one mouthpiece they had they've just sat after after a week yeah and that that i find that uncomfortable because red you know red bull are supposed to be this great one of their arms is great digital sports content producer videos of blokes on motorbikes leaping over buildings or whatever great they're a marketing organization on that front it's hilarious that they then don't want to market themselves i thought it was prem rugby who i don't know slightly feel enthralled to red bull which i what it feels like they're enthralled to red bull which again i'm slightly worried about i'd be demanding that they come out and say this is why we bought this club this is our strategy this is where we're going to take this club this is what we want to achieve I find it uncomfortable that one of the 10 major shareholders in the press is silent and deliberately so.

47:36I don't like that.

47:37Alfie: Will, you mentioned earlier that you were at Quinns on Sunday. Yeah. Got the victory over Samson. Obviously they did that, didn't they? Well, naturally, yeah. But I think a big thing to come out of that game, it was an un-Quinns-like performance in many ways, and in particular led by Marcus Smith in that it was an un-Marcus Smith-like performance from what we're used with him with the kicking game, just tactically for far better than Sarri's, which I think opens up the conversation with November, only a couple of weeks away, of England's selection. And I think this is actually going to get us into the whole back line because I think once you start with the fly half, you can get into the centres and the back three as well.

48:11Alfie: But you look at England, you had this time last year for the autumn, Marcus Smith was the fly half, had arguably some of his best performances in an England shirt and an England side that weren't winning. Finn Smith then comes in in the Six Nations. They beat France. he's the fly half he then goes on the lions tour so george ford is the fly half again in argentina and it's brilliant and is brilliant england have some great performances so england fly half discussion discuss yeah it's and look i don't think steve borswick will think like this because he'll go brilliant i've got so many options but if if he was of a different mind you'd go that is really quite annoying that marcus smith has done that because it raises it all back again I've got Marcus Smith who can now come off the bench and kick the leather off the ball.

48:55Yeah, well, but, and actually, look, on your un-Quinsey point thing, maybe I wrote that in the piece and I maybe regret it slightly because it is the most Quinsey thing to do ever, isn't it? To sort of be... Yo-yo between results. Well, to be, like, way off the pace in the first two games and then just randomly beat Saracens with a totally different, really well-executed game plan. And then they might go and lose to the Chiefs next weekend and everyone goes, well, what was that? So, anyway, park that bit. and I must say like full credit because it seemed like it was driven by Marcus Smith that game plan Jason Gilmore came in afterwards and said he basically helped build that plan yeah which is fascinating because unfairly I've always thought Marcus has been put in a shoebox as a fancy Dan who can only do the hot stepping pretty stuff Marcus now being able to play that sort of game which he has done before it's not the only time he's ever done it plus being able to beat someone in the phone box on the outside for his try which he's always been able to do is great news isn't it but it's just where on earth does he actually play and fit in does he end up on the bench essentially at best yeah i think so at the moment but and this is maybe a slightly knee jerk after one game but it's really instructive how central i mean you'd think he'd be central to at writing a game plan anyway, but he's never been central to writing a game plan like that, really, for Quinns.

50:17And maybe he's now in an environment at Quinns where he can go, this is the right plan for this game, this is our position. Rather than having to play into a kind of a mindset or a romance. And doing like, oh yeah, but we're Quinns, so we have to... Yeah, and again, this is very early to... I'm not stating it as a definite, but it just feels there's been a big shift around Quinns and now Marcus in his first game has imposed himself in a different way than we've seen before and it's definitely a way that Borthwick will enjoy seeing, 100%.

50:51Alfie: Right here, right now, who starts for England at fly half against Australia first weekend in November? I would... Finsmith. Finsmith, I think. Which is so brutal for Ford because he's so good. I think we've said that 100 million times but yeah. Two million dollar question. Yeah. Who starts at 12? I was going to say let's then filter through the rest of the back line starting with 12 where we have Owen Farrell back the big question of Farrell is whether he wants to be back yet that's the question that needs to be answered really but 12 for England as it so often is a question mark so let's do the rest of the back line starting at 12 I'll start because it's maybe the debating point I can definitely see a world where it's Finn Smith, Owen Farrell, Oli Lawrence midfield with then Freeman, Faber, Bosa and then I'm not really sure about the 15 yeah having seen Owen Farrell last week could be daily perhaps if he's back fit after his arm break daily if he's playing well hopefully he's back next week but he's fit he just hasn't when I saw him for a piece I wrote last week it was a massive scar that looked horrible huge scar yeah brutal 16 screws in his plate in his arm he'd been training but he hadn't gone through the contact return yet but on the same day I saw Owen Farrell and he did shut the door on it but he didn't want to be seen to be going pick me Steve pick me it was more he never would do that no exactly he never would do because he would never want to be seen to be the guy demanding anything and he wouldn't want to be disrespectful to those who are already there his point was I've got to just get my feet under the table at Saracens and start playing well but I think he's already doing that I think he's already doing that he didn't have his greatest day on Sunday but he did provide an incredible assist for the Fergus Burke try he's obviously got the brain so one of the alternatives would be Seb Atkinson who had a really good tour with England.

52:37He's slightly hobbled off. Hopefully he's not too bad after Gloucester. In terms of what the pecking order would be, he's in the frame. Dingers. Fraser Dingwell, obviously, was a Finch of Six Nations. Definitely. He played really well and he's in danger of being one of those underestimated players. The glue man. Yeah. Everyone you speak to who plays with him says how important he is as a player. And he's a big voice at Saints as well. You watched their behind-scenes videos, which are great, when they went through Europe last season. Massive. he's driving a lot of it isn't he so but he's similar in that sense to a farrell just a lot less profile you know farrell his his whole thing is about a bit less chippy binding oh yeah a completely different character but about binding those around around them otherwise you're looking at playing players out of position that they they seem they want only lawrence as a 13 they want maxi jomo as a 13 they maybe want to be freeman as a 13 yeah um are we missing 12 like slade Slade Lawrence was the last partnership and then they did a bit of Dingwall Freeman at the end of the Six Nations in Wales because Lawrence snapped his Achilles but Slade and Lawrence when they've done it they were a very consistent partnership but they'd literally swap numbers some weeks wouldn't they and swap positions it just doesn't really I guess the question which we don't yet have the answer to is if Farrell is interested and wants to be there does Borthwick see him as his 12 through to the World Cup, in which case why would you not be?

54:06You get him in. And then you go into year 11 of, oh, do England play Ford Farrell at a World Cup? Or have the fourth World Cup in a row where Ford ends up being the 10 and then drop for the quarterfinal for Farrell. But I, in all sincerity, that's the balance that Borthwick will need to decide in his mind. Does he want his 12 to be young Seb Atkinson, proven club performer, probably underappreciated international or Fraser Dingwall or like the big daddy Owen Farrell coming in who will bring all the things all the reasons why Andy Farrell took him out on the Lions tour that's fascinating because for me like Ollie Lawrence is his best at 13 you could obviously use him first receiver use him for a direct carrying but his his offloading game his footwork is is too for me it's too good to use him as a 12 I've always thought that he offers so much more than just a battering ram he started

54:59Alfie: the season so well as well coming back from his Achilles. Personally, I would go Dingwall, but I think 12, as always for England, there's probably a fair bit of question there. Let's finish off with the back three. Let's not open that door. Finish off with the back three. I think you're right, Will, in that with Faye Roboso back and Tommy Freeman, they're your wingers. What really interests me with wingers, though, which I've been messaging in our WhatsApp group for the last few weeks, is just Radwan at Leicester and the return of Henry Arundel. How close are they to being a regular for England and at international level because we've always known the pace and try-finishing and try-scoring ability they bring is frightening.

55:37Alfie: The question for both of them has always been other areas of the game. Defensively, what's their kicking game like? What's their aerial game like? Which, as we know, at international level is so key. And I do wonder whether, given that it wasn't that long ago that we were probably looking at Faye Waboso being England's only out-and-out, pure pace, gas winger, Radwan, I think, is getting better in the other areas of his game. Arundel being back, I think, is better in other areas of his game. It might not be too long. All of a sudden, you're looking at Steve Borthwick's options on the wing, and you're like, blimey, that's some unbelievable options.

56:07Alfie: We haven't even mentioned Roebuck there as well. Or Hassel Collins. Or Hassel Collins. I mean, Roebuck's ahead of Hassel Collins, for sure. And, I mean, we saw it in the Quinn's game on the weekend. The value of batting back high balls, which Freeman's brilliant at as well, is so enormous at the moment. So it's, and you can, I mean, it'll depend on each match they play, won't it? But in international rugby, that's going to be dialled up even more, isn't it? When we get to November and Six Nations, that kick battle, that back battle. And so just to answer your point, you'd still say that Freeman, Roebuck are ahead of, and Stewart, obviously, the likes of Radwan and Arundel.

56:49but the kid in me is always like I hate that we just go yeah but just get the quick lad on the wing how amazing let him fly but is he not going to select are there not like two positions here that he's going to the Freeman Roebuck are competing for one jersey and then the X Factor I don't see in a big game against the All Blacks Steve Balfour picking two X-factor speed-type wingers.

57:22Alfie: Yeah. I could see him picking one, and therefore that is probably like Ferro Boso, Arundel, I'm not sure, Radwan. I'm not sure how close realistically those two are. I think they'll have to convince him a lot about... Ferro Boso, top of the queue, for sure. Ferro Boso, top of the queue. But the two behind him, their pace and footwork and finishing ability is outstanding. I think Borthick will look at positioning, defensive positioning, and all those other nuts and bolts before he's convinced. But I think the way that England might look at their back three is to have the balance of the guy who can...

57:53The work rate under the high ball, which are definitely Freeman and Roebuck. And I think he's more likely to play those two together than he is to play two speedsters together. But he'll probably play one of each.

58:04Alfie: Finishes off, full-back, Marcus Smith, George Furbank we haven't seen. Joe Carpenter. I mean, before he broke his arm, Daly was incredibly good on those Lions tour games, albeit they were tour games, so therefore not against blindingly good opposition. So he's interesting, as usual. Stewart comes off his... Well, he's picking clever lines more than he used to and was better in attack last season and played the summer games in Argentina well. Carpenter, you feel like... I really like Carpenter, but you feel like they'll still go for Furbank when he's a fit above him as a similar type of 15. And then we're back on the Marcus question.

58:43He doesn't want to play there, but he keeps getting put there. I don't think he's a fullback. I don't think he exudes authority because he understands the position as well. He's an unbelievable multi-position athlete. Of course he can play there. I just think there are too many occasions when it looks like he's slightly scrambling to catch up because he's been just slightly caught out of position. I think going back to the 10 thing, whoever starts, I think Marcus is probably on the bench ahead of Finn or whoever isn't starting or George Ford Daly may run out of time to get the 15 jersey for the Australia game but he on form of the last six months is probably the one otherwise Furbank if he can get fit is obviously a favourite and fits beautifully as the playmaker as Daly does Stewart is such a different type of fullback really like him but different type of fullback

59:41Alfie: Perhaps some good headaches and questions for Steve of Borthwick to face ahead of November let us know who would you pick as your England backline email the ruck at the times dot co dot uk loads packed into the episode thank you for listening we'll be back with you next Monday Alex Will busy week what are we up to where are we going what are we doing well I'm going to Gloucester Bristol on Friday Friday night there you go and incredibly soon there's going to be England camp squads announced so we'll keep tabs on that there's one coming up next Sunday and then the Sunday after that is the squad because the week after that is test week and you think blimey november's coming here already yeah i know we're there already aren't we so yeah obviously we'll be nipping around the country interviewing people and everything else i'd say there are two good games on saturday to look forward to leicester bath big test of of parlings leicester as bath go there as we've just discussed and saracen sale which you know just feels this connection the alexanderson connection did you see him on friday on the telly he's like i want saris yeah because they were sort of trying to Because it was Derby weekend.

1:00:43They're trying to big up the Derby and stuff like that. And he was like, I want Saris.

1:00:47Alfie: I always like it when those two meet. I think that would be a really good game. That's quite an intriguing one for where both of those sides are at this early point in the season as well. Yeah. So that would be good. All right, awesome stuff. We'll be back with you next week. Thank you for listening. This has been the Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from the Times and the Sunday Times.