England back to winning ways: But did we learn anything?

0:14Hello everyone, welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. And we're absolutely basking in the sun on the banks of the Mersey outside the Great Hill Dickinson Stadium after England 73, Fiji 8. An absolute destruction of the Fijians. A record away win for England, beating the 68-14 against Wales. Only joking. I mean, it's basically a home game for England here. But I'm joined by Alex Lowe on the banks of the river. and gosh a funny old game to pick out the bones of isn't it Alex?

0:51Alex Lowe: Yes a funny old game England's biggest win since they beat Fiji at the World Cup in 2023 they were utterly dominant against a Fiji team who were never really at the races because England attacked them at their weakest point which as we said we thought England's scrum and mauling game would be far too strong for Fiji and it was, and England just went for the jugular there and ground them down to such an extent that really Fiji had their lives squeezed out of them. But it also meant that it wasn't really a contest from very early in the game. Fiji played for 50 minutes with 14 men. Lavani Bottia was sin-binned and then they lost to Scrum Half, Kuravulu, for kicking out to Ellis Genge just before half-time.

1:40Alex Lowe: so that just compounded a poor error filled performance from Fiji they were then down to 14 and they had no hope and and it ended up being one of those games where you sit there shrugging your shoulders going well I don't know what to make of this because England have been poor for the last five games five to fix in a row now they've suddenly scored 11 tries debut tries for Bernard Jansi van Rensburg and Noah Callourey, a hat-trick for Henry Pollock, like electric hat-trick from Henry Pollock. But you're left going, does this show us anything? Does this lift England out of the hole that they've been in?

2:18Alex Lowe: And I don't think you can draw any of those conclusions because the opposition were a shambles, sadly, a complete shambles. And England went hard at them. England forwards will think they've had a good day. the attack was still pretty clunky off the back of that dominance up front really only until the last quarter where they were able to move the ball much better England under no pressure ironically with Marcus Smith at a scrum half because they'd lost Alex Mitchell to a hamstring injury and he'll be out of the game in Argentina so a lot's happened but to actually draw I think it's dangerous it should be dangerous for England to draw too many firm, positive conclusions from that because it was so one-sided as one of those horrible Test matches that wasn't a contest.

3:07Alex Lowe: What we love about Test rugby is that everything is a contest. This wasn't a contest in any area of the game, which was a shame. So I think England go to Argentina on Sunday. They'll be buoyed. Their spirits will be up. They've got to win. But I actually don't think it removes much of the pressure on this team. They have to go again in Santiago de Lestero. Yeah, I agree with that. And you listeners might hear the rumbling of the Fijian bus next to us. And let's be honest, they never got off it. No. I mean, what a shame. We'll do maybe a bit on this place, Everton, Hill Dickinson, fantastic venue, brilliant stadium.

3:48They've done it so classily. I hope those of you who came here enjoyed your day because it was awesome to come up to the north, a bit of celebration of Fijian culture. We had lots of Meke, the dancing. I'm sure there'll be a bit of Cava drunk tonight, maybe the fizzy Spanish wine as well as the root drink from Fiji. But what a venue, what a place. And then what a shambles. I mean, we were talking to people who know Fijian rugby a bit more than we do over the weekend, weren't we, Alex? And they were saying, fearful that Fijian rugby stepped back 10 years and it's just kind of let the boys play stuff, which is possibly the worst thing you can say to Fijians.

4:24And look, amazing players in that team, like Lavani Bottia, one of the greats in Fijian rugby history. But he's just going around banging people, running out the line, giving away penalties. The scrum was rubbish. It was really disappointing from them, wasn't it?

4:40Alex Lowe: It was so indisciplined in so many ways. And the thing that is often frustrating about Fiji is also the thing that people love, is their ability to trust their skills, to conjure something out of nothing. And that often comes with the odd careless mistake. like oh if you just held on there or executed that offload better you'd be but we saw right at the first possession they dropped dropped a line out ball the first three scrums were penalty to England then England forced a knock-on at the base with the second scrum penalty advantage with the third scrum from which they scored the first try through Marcus Smith and from that moment Fiji had no foothold in the game they they were on the back foot they were but they were conceit, they were bleeding penalties, they had no answer to the physicality and the set-piece dominance of England, and you're right, the changing coach, Mick Byrne, was essentially ousted as head coach of Fiji, and he had, I was reminded of way back, the World Cup in I think it's 2007, covered a Fiji game, Nicky Little, who was the fly half, he played for Saracens, I remember talking to him after a game and he had this lovely phrase to sum up Fijian rugby and he said sort of again to reference the unpredictability you never quite know what you're going to get he said sometimes we're rowing the boat and sometimes we're chilling under the coconut tree and Fiji under McBurn you know the team that beat England at Twickenham the team that nearly knocked England out of the 2023 World Cup.

6:10I saw them run Australia close before the Lions so they should have won that game in Newcastle.

6:14Alex Lowe: They were a rowing the boat team. They had found a way of understanding and respecting the fundamentals of the game and blending them with their phenomenal skill set. This shift we've had now, they're under the coconut tree. They just want to play. And the problem is if you've got no foundation, like England took away their foundation today and so they couldn't play. And they didn't help themselves either with errors and just a flurry of penalties. So it's a shame and it's a worry because I can see them going through this nation's champ now making very little impact. Yeah, and that is disappointing, isn't it?

6:52And look, we would love them to be playing at home, properly at home. We joked at the top about England's best ever away win, but we know they've done their best to make this sort of like a corner of a foreign field, haven't they? But it's not the same. It's not playing in Sigatoka, Laotoka. It's not playing in Suva Nandi, is it? and like it was interesting uh the captain tavita ikan and navray afterwards was kind of saying well scotland are the only ones who've bothered to come and we respect them for that but it's hard to win in fiji and we see that with the druah don't we see that in super rugby pacific where you go man the crusaders lose there like the brumbies lose there the big teams get beaten up out there and it's it's really difficult and you think if if they had a stadium which they hope The money that they make over the next three weeks, or the one before and the two coming, will help them build a proper stadium and proper facilities.

7:46But I think there's a second bit there where you think the big teams don't want to go to Fiji because they can put 70 on them here and move on, right?

7:53Alex Lowe: You have to remember as well that although they're competing in the Nations Championship, they're guests. Like Japan. They've been invited to join. They get a fee. They don't get a cut. They don't really get much say. Of the broadcast and the big sponsors. Everyone else will share the revenues. They'll essentially get a participation fee. Therefore, they're not as important as the Six Nations and the Rugby Championship teams. The very fact that they're playing in the UK demonstrates that. I think Japan are pretty hacked off that they had to play Ireland today in Australia because Ireland put their foot down and said, no, we are not travelling to Tokyo.

8:30Alex Lowe: and Ireland won that battle because Japan, like Fiji, invited guests into someone else's competition. Yeah, it does, look, it's a tough word to use, but it does feel like rugby's colonialism still exists, doesn't it? Like that kind of, oh, well, you're lucky to be here, chaps, aren't you? Come on, man. But I would say that it was a lovely, the pre-match was lovely and it did. Brilliant, yeah. I thought the Fijians did a great job and they kept trying to remind us it was a Fiji home game record home attendance which was a bit pushing it it was yeah but there were some lovely cultural elements pre-match oh the singing so we're just standing out here beautiful choir singing where the buses are parked and were parked before the game as we said and there's incredible Fijian harmonising singing and dancing and things like that and you thought this is fun this is a nice slice of suva on the Mersey but yeah disappointing rugby we never saw the Fiji that we know is there.

9:30Alex Lowe: We knew that their type five would struggle today, but they often find ways to compensate for that because they've got such brilliance outside. And England, to be fair to England, they strangled them. They never allowed Fiji to get into their stride. So England will leave here feeling positive about certain things. I think defensively, Balfour will be really satisfied how solid England were defensively, given how porous they've been. One lapse, basically, just before halftime. Yeah, but they've been so porous defensively this year that I think he'll be pleased. You were in the press conference.

10:04Alex Lowe: I was rewriting the quick match report. He did touch on that. Did he? Good defensive performance. I'm not surprised by that. The forwards will have enjoyed the more dominance they had. I thought England's backs still looked a bit clunky. They didn't play off that dominance enough early. Now, I'm sure the plan was to just keep it tight and then open up later, which is what they did do. And once Fiji were out on their feet in the last quarter, then England sends on Henry Pollock, who runs riot and gives it the big Jude Bellingham try celebration. And he scored the pick of the tries for me, the sort of solo run from halfway on the outside.

10:42Alex Lowe: Incredible, incredible gas. Did you also see, sorry, just to pause there, another celly where Cowan Dickey checked Pollock's pulse for him? It was quite a nice little moment. Nice. Yeah, so, you know, the mood will be better in England camp. They were definitely fired up. The forwards in particular, they'd taken a bit of a battering in South Africa. They had a bit of a point to prove to themselves. Just as a reaction, you don't learn much about dominating a powder puff opposition other than you just feel better about yourself. So they all leave here feeling better about how they scrumaged, how they mauled.

11:19Alex Lowe: The scrum was a mess. The game was a mess, really. So many stoppages for TMOs and knock-ons and scrum resets. It ended up being 110 minutes of playing time. Plus 20 minutes half-time. 20-minute half-time because of the weather. Two hours ten to play a game of rugby. There were people leaving before the end. As there was one former England player who said to me as we walked out of the stand together, he was like, you're not going to win over a football crowd with a game like that because it's two-stop start, no flow, too long and also not a contest. It's one of those interesting things. So my take, just to explain my job, I guess, on a match day, I file a match report on the final whistle.

12:00Alex Lowe: So you're writing as you go. And my initial take was to kind of call back to a conversation that Chris Ashton had with Jamie George this week in which Ashton said to Jamie George, I know this situation. This is a lose-lose for England. Because if you lose, jobs are on the line. But if you win, everyone's like, well, it's Fiji, isn't it? It's only Fiji, yeah. And Jamie George acknowledged that that was true. He said, that is a situation that we've got ourselves in. And I think it played out like that because for all the great things that England feel they did, the caveat is so huge that it was against a really, really poor team.

12:36Alex Lowe: And then the more people I spoke to, former England players, illustrious, significant former England players who are in the stadium today. Some fans are just waving to you, by the way. They're like, it's Alex Lowe from the Ruck. Bula, Vinaka? Bula. Bula, safe journey home. They all agreed. They were all like, I don't know what you get from that. One of them was like, the forwards will feel good, but the backs will be like, we didn't really get our game going. That's funny, 11 tries. So it feels quite harsh. And some nice finishes at the end. Kalori gets in. But it was just interesting to hear it from people who understand what it's like in the England set-up, who would have played in games like this, played in those Barbarians games, played in non-contest games like this.

13:22Tonga Japan, Samoa particularly in

13:26Alex Lowe: you've got to look at this in the wider context Steve Borthwick doesn't want to acknowledge the wider context but you have to because if England had lost today I think he'd have been fired, not today but I don't know how he could have come back from that so England didn't win today but they also weren't tested so that's why I don't think you can get too much from it and it was just really interesting to hear England players who've had that same experience agree that even on the inside they'll be like okay well we've we've done what we came to do and there's a few bits we'd be happy with but that that won't tell them anything about whether they can have enough next week in Argentina and whether they'll have enough again in November when they open up against the All Blacks yeah so a bit of a damned if they did damned if they didn't day that was always going to be this this this game unfortunately but as an exercise maybe let's let's dwell on some of the things they did do well because it is the first time they've won since february 7th i think so like we have been fairly obsessed rightly with the the losing run and they've now ended it they've stopped the rot they're now starting afresh yeah they're one from one on this new run perhaps see what they do next week but that's sorry that is exactly my point this doesn't mean anything unless they're next week so i was like i'm trying of an analogy like the storm clouds were over england coming into this game and and if chink of life if anyone feels they've parted they'll only have parted if they can go and win next week and improve again otherwise you'll realize actually you're in the eye of the storm that calm bit before the the clouds come back and the wind circles around you again because if they lose in in argentina then then you're looking at six defeats in seven yeah and against and look we'll what we're recording before Argentina play tonight but they got put away by Scotland.

15:21Alex Lowe: And it really, we're putting into perspective this game. So that's why I just think it's really important to reserve judgment because this isn't the start of anything until you know that there's something that follows. Yeah, so parking that, which is absolutely, totally valid and I agree with you. Let's do a bit on some of the content of the game. I mean, as we said, it took a hell of a long time to get going. That first half was long. Yeah, 57 minutes. starts, lots of extra TMOs, lots of reset scrums. You're like, come on, boys, we've got trains to catch an England football to watch tonight. Come on, let's have it.

15:53But Strong Maul, Jamie George, I asked him afterwards, was that satisfying? To your point, the former England players are going, what do you learn from that? And he was like, that was immensely satisfying. And of course, that's the positive public message. Jamie George is an incredibly positive vibes guy. but I think maybe he was particularly talking about the scrum that went pretty well they've got one against the head which maybe was Holly Davison trying to keep Fiji with her a bit and going like we'll give them one on a 50-50 even it up a bit otherwise we lose them which I know refs do but the Moore was consistently good they used that concern at the front of line outs and then he would come in and drive with them Coles, Chess and Martin there you feel like that's a lot to build on with her toge to come back don't you?

16:37Alex Lowe: Yes very satisfying but very encouraging you have to go the step or the gulfing quality between the box team they played last week and the Fiji team they played this week like if England particularly the front five if England hadn't been able to do that against that Fiji front five I'd be worried so yeah satisfying because they brought out what they wanted to bring out like an edge of ruthlessness physicality up front to really attack Fiji where Fiji were weak and they did that so of course that's satisfying but it doesn't necessarily tell us that suddenly everything things sunshine and rainbows as courtly laws would say that's one of his phrases so other positive bits and pieces van Rensburg scores with his first touch yeah there was debutante scoring everywhere apart from Kloska I mean he was probably unlikely to score a try but air calori goes in on the right wing you get a Pollock hat trick and look Fiji were ragged by the end but we did show some connected attack.

17:35The shape was maybe a bit not quite neat enough, but then I thought Slade grew into that game. Two or three assists. I mean, the pace that Pollock shows, and it made me think, so at the end of that game, you've got Marcus Smith at Scrum Half, possibility of that in future unlocking a 7-1 bench, which Steve Borthwick agreed with. He said, yeah, well, it shows it can be done, can't it? And fascinatingly, I asked Marcus about it afterwards, he's never trained a minute at Scrum Half for England at all

18:07Alex Lowe: I do find that surprising you'd think that the box would have gone like they have with Colby oh well you know have a look and like it's an unlikely scenario what happens so Alex Mitra goes off and the news from here is that he's pulled his hammy again his right hammy and he's not going to go to Argentina so they're going to have to call up a nine you think because they've got Spencer who needed a rest really for this summer and Van Portfliet is going to have to start but they're going to need to call someone up but that Marcus or quirk probably. The Marcus thing at scrum half, you kind of go, okay, possibly, possibly helpful exercise to go adapt to a challenge there.

18:43Alex Lowe: Yeah, an accidental benefit of the game was Marcus playing 20 minutes at nine and playing it really well. Admittedly under zero pressure. Of course, yeah, true. You know, that last bit, Pollock running lines that he loves to run, showmanship, it was easy because 14 men out on their feet. I know you keep going, here's a positive. I keep going, yeah, but. But it's one of those games. That's the game. It's a give and a take match. It's hard to sum up what anyone can get from this other than by the end, they'd run in 11 tries. They had found some fluidity. Slade, again, as you say, important figure in the team, I think, given some guys a taste of test rugby.

19:27Alex Lowe: We said at halftime, we were surprised that he didn't make. The game was done by half-time. Yeah, I thought Pollock and Calori could have come on straight away, half-time, almost used it as an exercise to be like, right, go on then, show me Pollock why you should start and all that. Yeah. They did enough. They did enough. For someone like Henry Pollock, who in recent matches has come on with the game done, he gets like seven minutes in Italy when England are suddenly out of the game. He comes on against Scotland and England are 20 points down or whatever it was. Same in South Africa last week.

19:59Alex Lowe: I guess finally for him, got a chance to come on where everything was in his favour. And yeah, the pace and the skill set that he has, remarkable. But it was kind of easy pickings for him at that point. And so, yeah, we are slightly tempering the excitement, which I imagine in your press conference with Steve Borthwick, he was probably accentuating all the positives. Well, he said, I know you guys like to look backwards and look for negatives, but I like to look forward and look for positives. and you're like, okay, you've won a game, well done. That's obviously not entirely true. Your prerogative.

20:33Alex Lowe: You can't ignore a run of five defeats like that. You just can't. Looking at it as the context of all the supporters who contacted us last week after you put a message out and all the 50-odd fans who expressed frustration at the direction of travel, everyone's looking at it in a wider context. No one's looking at it just as this game. And where this game sits is it's a pausing moment. I mean, no one's going to proclaim England are out of the rut based on this. Equally, you can't proclaim that it's the end of Borthwick's coaching tenure on the back of this either. It's a pause until we see what follows.

21:12Alex Lowe: It's like a holding victory, isn't it? It really is, yeah. So the one thing I was thinking about, sort of trying to capture the bit of that last half, half an hour maybe, is how do they, because there was one thing that we were talking about with Marcus Smith afterwards, is that England have the potential to have incredibly good game-breaking players on the field at the end of the game. So at the end of the game, they can have Marcus Smith, Finn Smith, Freeman, Van Rensburg, Slade, Calori, they can't all play at the same time, but you know what I mean? And then Pollock, and you're sort of going like, if they're going to play the way that they say they want to consistently, and they're going to go and do that in Argentina and look a bit like the team that were there last year, 2025, surely that's what they've got to capture.

22:02We've not even mentioned Fabio Boso in there as well. The amount of dynamic, attacking-minded backs and back rows they've got now is exciting, but the key is actually getting them the ball in games that are tight, right? I guess it's similar to the football, isn't it? Football have never struggled with lots of brilliant forwards. And it's like, but sometimes they can't break down the opposition and it's passing around the edge of the box. And we've seen that in plenty of games in World Cups and Euros gone by. So I guess the question off the back of that is, how do they take the good bits of that and project it onto Santiago de la Estera, which will be a completely different challenge?

22:46Well, I think very simply by trusting their ability to do it.

22:52Alex Lowe: Because there's been this disconnect with England through this run of results of the team that they want to be versus the team that they've actually been on the field. And we've talked about the messaging there being off. Yeah, absolutely. But if they want to be the team they talk about, how do they connect the dots together? and if they can get some they won't dominate the Pumas up front like they dominated Fiji but with a platform they then have to connect that into a willingness to see space and to try and just trust the skills of of a Finn Smith and a Sebakinsid and a Henry Slade if that's what they end up going with or even as they might do put a Van Rensburg in at 12 for a bit of punch and then play off the back of that But, you know, it's one of the things England have missed is that real physicality at 12.

23:46There was one particular quite very Van Rensburg-y carry at one point where he really accelerated onto the ball and kind of biffed. He didn't really make that many yards, but it was just the sort of intent of the carry that you thought that's why he's in. That's why they've bent the rules to get him here.

24:03Alex Lowe: That's why England need him. That's why England want him. That's why they've waited all these years to get him and persuaded him to stay in the Prem and all those things because they knew that post-Manu, Englands haven't had that kind of athlete. So it wouldn't surprise me if he starts in Argentina. And if you can play with that forward intent that England brought to this game, it'll be a tougher battle, but the intent was there. The intent wasn't really there in South Africa. They were weirdly off it. That was the game when you thought, they absolutely have to muscle up. here they did it and crushed Fiji it would be more of a battle in Argentina but they have to bring that edge that kind of nastiness back into their forward play they're not a huge pack but it's about intent because all they need is a nudge forward in Test Rugby you don't need to be marching forward you just need to dent the line and force the defence to take half a step back and if they can bring that up front if they can have the punch from somebody like Van Rensburg who they really want in the team, and then trust the playmakers and the skill players to trust them to bring their game.

25:16Alex Lowe: And that's where there's been this disconnect because up until now and in this run, England haven't trusted their players to play to their strengths. Despite saying they are. Despite saying they would, they haven't. And they haven't set up to do that either. It's not just that on the field the players haven't been able to. they're not even set up to do it. So coming out of the end of the Six Nations and through this period where England are talking about a fresh identity and moving the ball and trusting in their skills, we didn't see it for very long in South Africa. It came through into this game towards the end, but in a game where they really focus initially on battering them up front.

25:57Alex Lowe: I want to see more of a connection from England so that they can join together a physical edge, a bit of nastiness up front, with trusting in players like Finn Smith, who's so clearly the future for England at fly half. I thought he was excellent today. Star man in my ratings, man of the match. Get Manny on the ball more. Bring these players into England's attack. That hasn't happened enough. It didn't happen enough really today for the first hour. it was still quite clunky their shape was narrow they weren't fluid but that did come as the game wore on as the tidings set into the Fijians so that's England's next step so back to my whole point in this pod of you can't draw a conclusion today but if they then go and deliver that next week then you can go alright we're starting to see something because I would hope I really hope that Argentina do put up a battle next week.

27:01Alex Lowe: They were woeful last week against, well, Scotland were also really good last week. We're recording this before Argentina play on Saturday, but I hope we get a proper battle and that we can then see England joining these things together because then we can go, all right, now we're seeing something develop. And to counter all perceptions from the England camp and everything else, we are not fans of a team. We don't want them to lose. we don't want them to win as in supporters you mean we're not supporters of the team yeah we're not fans yeah we're not fans of the team we don't want them to lose like some people think we do and we don't want them to win as supporters what we it is much more fun covering a rugby team that is winning because and playing good rugby smarts and faces with lots of great characters in the team who enjoy talking to it's a joy to watch it's a joy to engage with the coaches and players about all the things all the great things they're doing and we know that people want to listen to podcasts about winning teams and read what we write about winning teams.

28:03Alex Lowe: So there is this perception, the media are just out to get us all the time. There are some chippy members of the England team who don't mind giving a bit to the media. We can take it. It's never personal. But it would be nice, after a long period of watching England flailing and struggling, if you could see that game coming together. Yeah. It would bring a lot of joy to a lot of people. Oh, definitely. And talking of Joy, he's not here because he's had to dash back home. But Charlie Morgan has seen his first test win as a Times journalist. What a day for him. I read his stuff on Sunday. Yeah. How will he analyse a victory, not a defeat, for the first time with us?

28:42That's a weird thing to say, isn't it? He's been with us for like five months.

28:46Alex Lowe: It will be interesting to see what he has picked out, what he has focused on tactically, skill-wise, from that performance. that any trends that he may have spotted from next was in the press box. So, yeah, log on on Sunday and give Charlie a read. Yeah, and just to maybe summarise where we think we're at with Steve Borthwick, because rightly there's been a lot of scrutiny and pressure on him particularly as the head coach of this team. Do you think it's as simple now, Alex, as a defeat in Argentina and we're just back to square one? Yeah, I do think that the pressure remains on England and Steve Borthwick to go and win in Argentina just as it did come into this game.

29:33Alex Lowe: I think losing here would have been serious, potentially terminal. That was never a threat. England were never tested, never pushed. But I don't think because of how poor Fiji were in particular that England have to go to Argentina and link their game up, demonstrate that they are making progress and moving forward out of the hole they were in at the end of the Six Nations. That was a challenge that was put to Steve Borthwick by the RFU. They had to see evidence of progress through this summer. They had to see England fixing the problems both on the field and through leadership and character and spirit.

30:10Alex Lowe: Hard to draw a conclusion on that from this Fiji game because of how one-sided it was. They have to go to Argentina and join all those things together. If you don't see any signs of progress against a much better team than Fiji, then the pressure remains and the questions that the RFU will be asking will be the same as they would have been asking after the South Africa game. Yeah, I think I agree with that. And we're going to be there. We're off onto Continent 3, Alex. What's your admin? Talk to me about your flight plan from now. Right now, it's find somewhere to watch the football. and then Sunday Manchester to Amsterdam to Buenos Aires arrive Monday England will name their team on Thursday Yancy van Rensbo is just walking past us sporting his new cap with a lot of his family who have flown over from South Africa Tabazimbi near the Botswana border I find the caps funny so I hope they sort of resize them after they give them to them because they never look like they fit they never fit they go straight into a like Noah Kalori he's a very tall guy our listeners won't have stood next to him but he's a tall man he's like 6 '4", 6 '5", and his cap's like on the top of his head like he's serving fast food in the McDonald's or something it's just sort of like oh they could do him a better rim there just have to survive the journey home and it'll go straight into a frame with the jersey yeah, surely yeah so yeah, my Argentinian admin is I'm going back to in-laws in Derbyshire tonight to try and watch the football let's hope my train's running I need to check that after we've pressed stop on the record here and then writing the Sunday for Monday stuff then Manchester, Madrid, Buenos Aires see you on Tuesday morning in Buenos Aires we'll be podding from Argentina first one will be after the England team on Thursday probably Friday morning published because of the time difference and after a potential Argentina-England World Cup semi-final we are not counting chickens on the ruck and listen to the game if you want all the stuff around the football because we're far less knowledgeable than our football reporters on that.

32:14But we're quite excited for that. That could be really fun if we're in the capital when it's Argentina or England. I think I might not put on my Michael Owen England shirt. My 98 shirt that I've got in the bag may stay in the bag. I don't want to get abused.

32:31Alex Lowe: Kick off in a few hours. But it would be a great experience to be in Buenos Aires if we can get an Argentina or England semi-final. I mean, Norway, Switzerland wouldn't quite be the same, would it, for the colour piece that we could write for Buenos Aires. But the colour from here is that it's still lovely and sunny. It's been a lovely day in Liverpool. We've had a good weekend. It'll be great to come back up here and back in the north of England. I hope lots of fans who came here had a nice day despite the result. Potential venue for a Premiership semi-final weekend. That would be good. That would be really good.

33:01They've had Magic weekend here. They've had an Ashes League test, haven't they?

33:05Alex Lowe: This is one of the venues at the Prem are sort of pondering. with this plan they have to play the semi-finals on one weekend in one host city. I will remember next time to book a hotel for the right month. We'll leave that one there. But from Liverpool with love and I guess our corner of Suva, let's say, on the banks of the Mersey, that's it from the Ruck, the journalist rugby podcast from the Times and the Sunday Times. And the next time you'll hear me and Alex will be in Argentina. But on Monday, Alfie's going to give us a proper wrap-up like he did last week. of all the Nations Championship results, the balance of power between the hemispheres, but from England Fiji, it's goodnight!