England beat Fiji (eventually). Now the All Blacks...

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0:51Will Kelleher: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times from an empty Twickenham. Game two of the autumn is done for England. I'm Alfie Reynolds. Will Kelleher is back with me. Hello, it's just me and you today, isn't it? Yeah, no Alex Lowe. As he always is, he's working hard. He's filing downstairs below us in the press room. So just me and you to review England's match against Fiji. Another week, another win. Not a perfect performance, but they're two from two ahead of New Zealand.

1:20Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, and they're nine in a row, Alfie. So I was just looking that up downstairs, but that's the longest run of England victory since that record equaling run in 2016-17 with Eddie Jones 17 tests in a row they've gone beyond the one they went on in 2020 when they it was all bit either side of Covid so yeah nine wins in a row context around a few of them they've played Italy in that which they always do but they've never lost to Italy they've played probably the worst Wales team of all time in that run they've played the US they've had some creditable wins along the way france by a point scotland close after a long time of losing to them beating australia beating fiji they've beaten all the teams in front of them and look a lot of this pod i think is going to be talking about how they then make that work for the all blacks but let's

2:06Will Kelleher: dwell on fiji while we start it off yeah i feel like i could almost copy and paste my comments from last week which were not a great performance in a lot of ways but a game where they were really troubled and Fiji had their part to play in that will come on to them not a great performance but a close game where things weren't going their way they had the quality off the bench they had the wherewithal or they've learned the lessons to be able to get over the line and actually end up

2:32Alfie Reynolds: winning the game really comfortably like last week yeah and you look at the team that is on the field at the end of these games now and look the bench may be quite different next week there might be different approach but they had Jamie George Tom Curry they had still Finn Smith in the 10 jersey they had a lot of leaders on the field didn't they whereas if you go back 12 months they were fiddling around trying to nail drop goals they were not sure about how to execute the defensive strategy at the end against Australia whereas now it seems like they their sort of average quality across the board is similar if that makes sense I'm not saying they're average I'm saying that they're not dropping off like they used to and we talked about that last week on another pod but look it's a funny one though because so the job i was doing during the game was the ratings which i found quite difficult because i didn't feel like there was like we always like in the paper it's a bit of a device thing to give like a star man or a sort of man of the match type thing and i think officially it was ollie chesham right or maybe ben i think it's ben earl again okay so maybe they filmed ollie chesham on the bench and it actually was l but you sort of felt it wasn't one of those games where there's an obvious star and there was a lot that was still profligate in attack and a bit clunky but they still end up winning the game by 20 points but a lot of it is when they sort of revert back to scrum mall isn't it well hold that thought because I'm going

3:55Will Kelleher: to come on to that when we talk about the All Blacks game and how they attack there because yeah I absolutely agree I also think and it was interesting that Steve Borthwick and Ellis Genge both made this point in the press conference and maybe a part of it is you know it's the humble thing to do in defeat and talk up Fiji but watching this game I did feel that part of the storyline here is Fiji's improvement at this level and there's still the temptation I think particularly this November and I did it in my preview on TalkSport where I said Fiji are the lowest ranked team that England are playing so it's not going to be easy but it should be their most comfortable game but actually the improvement in Fiji and I think the importance of the Fijian druah having an actual professional side for players over there to play in Fiji do you think we're seeing the fruits of some of that labor yeah and look always always there's a slight homespun feel to

4:47Alfie Reynolds: the Fiji setup so to take you behind the curtain a little bit on the journalist pod after all I was trying to convince someone in the Fiji camp to give an interview all week and they they couldn't they wouldn't they so strange that by the way access to them at all yeah and look it's not their fault because their media manager hasn't been sent here he's not been paid to come he's in suva so you kind of think and that's just sort of an example of the things that they don't have that other teams have right and a lot of it comes back to money and some of it comes back to the governments of their own union and all the troubles that they've had over the years and everything else but the thing they've never lacked is incredible game-breaking talented players whether that's people who can jackal like joshua turosova and run over people like joshua turosova or Calavetti Revova who gave, there's one like sort of niche moment that I love with him today where he gave one of the most satisfyingly perfect hand-offs to the face.

5:42Alfie Reynolds: Like you quite rarely see that. You always see someone sort of half miss the face or get the shoulder, but Manny Fogosa got the full palm right in his head and you're like, that's quite a nice, neat thing to see. And then like lots of game breakers all over the place. They score some amazing tries. It feels like every time you watch Fiji, you go are they are they lacking in that sort of top two inches thing or that skill execution thing or are they just insanely unlucky like the tiny little bobble over the line where the nine goes in and it's sort of fumbled over the line like how many times we watch Fiji and you go oh man if that pass had stuck oh man if that had been given or if it wasn't quite that forward they would have won

6:18Will Kelleher: that game but the thing that I feel encouraged by from this game is I do think they still have all that stuff all the stardust all and they were an absolute handful for England particularly in that first half when they did take the lead england couldn't deal with them through the midfield plus they had the off front they were mauling them exactly did around the line out so they've still got that but they've got what you just say they've got their two pretty soft tries i thought the from england point of view but they have tries from mauls they have more of a set piece i suppose that's what i mean when i say are we seeing the impact of the druah i think that's where we're

6:50Alfie Reynolds: possibly seeing more cohesion and everything else definitely and look the hope so the next time England will play Fiji will be slightly oddly in South Africa as part of the Nations Cup which is the fixtures of which are going to be announced at some point next week listeners look we're going to get some fixtures for July and November next year but you hope that that competition adds more structure to their whole year so we have that they have the Pacific Nations Cup that they play and often win but it always feels like they're kind of slightly ragtag and they're trying to gather things together quickly because Reg 9 doesn't allow them to have all their players all the time I know that the guys gathered in camp basically for the first time on Sunday, this time last week kind of thing.

7:31Alfie Reynolds: So they hardly had too much training together. They've obviously got to gather people from France, from Fiji, from UK, all that sort of stuff. So that's an issue. But you just think the more top tier games they play against good opposition all the time, they're going to take loads of scalps. And I think that's what we'll probably do a pod later down the week about the Nations Cup and explaining the whole thing because I think we need to. But you would hope that one of the positives of that tournament coming in is that they now get six of those proper games every couple of years and more in between World Cup.

8:01Alfie Reynolds: So that when we get to World Cup, it's not a surprise they're making quarterfinals and causing good teams problems.

8:06Will Kelleher: And they will take scalps, I think. The difficulty for them, as you say, is that they're not going to be playing in Fiji.

8:11Alfie Reynolds: And look, some people around them who are better at knowing the finances and all that than us would say that actually they'd make more money if they weren't in Fiji. like if they were to play games in the US or Europe they would make a lot more cash and they'd be better for broadcast and everything else but look you obviously hope there'd be a time we'd love to go like watch Fiji play England in Fiji in Suva in Nandi in Sigatoka wherever Lautoka but until that day comes they're going to be a sort of like traveling barbariansy type side who have so much joy in them and they represent I feel like they've always represented to the kind of like moral heart of rugby like they are sort of genetically the most perfect rugby athletes aren't they the Fijians and they are obsessed with the sport they love it like you could hear pockets of the stadium going up for their big moments today like I remember I was in the Newcastle in New South Wales when they played Australia and it was the same you get the blue flags it's like going to one of those sevens events and people running up and down and just loving and that they bring so much to the game so I hope that all the others show them the respect to keep supporting them.

9:15Will Kelleher: Yeah, absolutely. I thought they were excellent today, but it was just, as we say, the quality from England, maybe a little bit more strength and depth, the punch from the England bench that got them over the line. But the final scoreline, certainly I don't think was a reflection of how much Fiji were able to travel England. Just before we get on to maybe casting our eyes forward to New Zealand, because that game obviously is massive for England and the context of their whole year, almost certainly their whole November. A couple more just to rattle through maybe. you said that there maybe wasn't any kind of standout or star players chan lakani himself at eight we spoke about it on thursday with alex and elgin yeah i think he maybe i just didn't

9:52Alfie Reynolds: notice enough about him but i thought he he did decently enough but i feel like this there's a couple of highlight reel carries and then i want to see a little bit more i still think ben earl's the best option to play or slash stay at eight if you're using the aussie template for next week and we'll get onto it, but I would want possibly Curry and Underhill either side of him just to go full barred up straight away from the start. I think Peppa has been really good in these two matches. In a different way to how he's good at Bath because he's quite quiet here and his numbers are low and you look on the stats, but he's obviously doing the stuff you don't see as much, whereas at Bath he's winning turnovers and making breaks in the 13 channel and all that.

10:32Alfie Reynolds: But yeah, Cunningham, there was just one maybe which stuck in my head where he slightly, to me, felt like he got lost from his support almost like carried away from his back row and england got turned over a couple of times didn't they but the one thing i feel like they really need to nail and this is talking about your blacks but also the stuff that we've seen over the last couple of weeks is i totally get that they end these games by scoring four or five tries but the first halves of these games they're visiting the 22 six times and scoring once that's quite a poor return and it feels i don't know what's quite happened to the attack that we saw in Argentina which felt really aggressive really punchy people making big bold correct decisions regularly maybe it helped that Ford was at 10 and he's quite good at facilitating that sort of stuff but it feels like there's a slight hesitancy in the red zone I've been slight like I really really like Fraser Dengua and I think he's a really neat player but I feel like I've been slightly disappointed about his very basic catch pass here like it's it's it's a bit off it's a bit short or wide or deep or narrow of the play do you know what i mean i think you could catching it slightly behind themselves sometimes there's

11:45Will Kelleher: quite a few there was a few today from other players as well like the pass was just behind freeman or fey ruboso yeah freeman's catching it kind of leaning the wrong way and then the

11:53Alfie Reynolds: move dies but having said that they did execute a very nice counter-attack didn't they so the kick comes over Freeman, into Finn Smith, Lawrence with a lovely bang step that falls the defender, puts him on his arse, and then they're in, eventually scores over the line. So I just feel like we saw it with Scotland. Man, take your chances. Yeah, we'll have Mark Palmer on Monday's pod. I mean, that is centuries of games against New Zealand, right? But take your chances. You can't rely on a couple of short maul tries and things like that at the end against New Zealand, I think.

12:29Will Kelleher: well Henry Arundel was fun when he came off the bench it reminded me do you remember I love the pace like pace was it was it Reece Samet against Argentina I want to say he had one for Wales where you were watching you're like no there's no like there's no right to get this and he just burnt them and Arundel was the same today so that was a really fun moment can I just

12:48Alfie Reynolds: slightly dwell on that for a second that isn't that one of the most fun things to watch on a rugby field when you can see like we have such a great view in the seats that we sit at we're on the opposite side to where i sit and you're here on this side yeah and when you can see someone go i'm gonna go for that and put their head down you go oh they're gonna beat him i always think it's amazing he was third in that race and won it it was incredible but i always think that's amazing

13:12Will Kelleher: at this level where everyone's pretty quick everyone's pretty quick there's a lot of players with pace out there and he looked twice as quick as any of them that was remarkable and i just love

13:22Alfie Reynolds: that in our sport there's no substitute for just flat out gas. Yeah. So that was great. And first touch, he's good at scoring on his first touch, Aaron. He did it in his first ever touch.

13:32Will Kelleher: It's quite funny. On Thursday's pod, I was saying, yeah, but we've always known that about Aaron. Can he do the nuts and bolts? He's like, it doesn't matter. Just do that. That was great. Mauro Otoje coming on 70.

13:43Alfie Reynolds: Yeah.

13:44Will Kelleher: Okay. You concerned about that? No, not concerned at all. I just thought it was really interesting. We're so used to seeing marrow play 80 coming on in 70 i think it probably goes back to what alex said on the pod that previewed it that it meant alex cole's got a full 80 here and again for me probably just emphasizes and underlines that you know england are in a really good place to be able to do that yeah

14:05Alfie Reynolds: definitely and that's i think goes back to my point from earlier in the pod where it feels like in a year ago or before that i could never have done there was an obvious drop off yeah and actually one of the players mentioned this downstairs where for example if tom curry was fit he'd be straight into start because it was like well we've got to play tom curry and i think he probably plays against the all blacks from the beginning sure but they've actually because of the the like amazing options they've got in the back row now they've been able to go well do you know what 30 minutes here 30 minutes there come back from a wrist injury and then bang all blacks like we would probably expect him to start in that game unless they're trying to be clever and win it in the last 20 that's the new plan but that is a position they weren't in a year ago was it no not and they're growing that depth and as you say like maro is it 36 nations consecutive 80 minutes in a row like he is only he only plays 80 minutes and like you could have said here did you need to bring him on for 10 but that means it'll be a bit fresher for next week like all of this stuff it's almost like they're in a cycle of learning how to lose a lot and now they're in a cycle of learning how to win the lot.

15:11Alfie Reynolds: And the biggest test of that

15:12Will Kelleher: comes next week against the All Blacks. Quick break, then we'll look ahead to that game.

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16:02Will Kelleher: So next week, here where we're standing, England against New Zealand. Will, how well have the last two weeks Australia last week Fiji today prepared England for that test so headline to start with I think

16:16Alfie Reynolds: England should beat New Zealand or at least I think that they have built themselves over the last year to the point where they can and will be disappointed if they don't beat New Zealand because they've got so they've built up a lot of scar tissue with these tight defeats with all those those seven consecutive games that they lost to tier one countries by a score New Zealand bungled drop goal here Australia Jorgensen goes in the corner tight defeats they turn them into tight wins France Scotland then they went to Argentina and they blasted Wales before that fine but they're now getting in a habit of knowing how to close those games it helps with the experience at the end I feel like New Zealand are clearly vulnerable but still obviously have game breakers they won't have their best team out here Jordy Barrett is out of the hole in November with a high ankle strain there is a chance here for England to do it but they've got to get so much right and but I think they have built up these learnings over that last 12 months to put them in a really good position to do that what do you think?

17:19Will Kelleher: Yeah I think it's a fascinating test for this England team I don't know whether I would go as far to say I think they should do it I think they absolutely can and I think it is the ultimate proof that they have have learned from all those lessons I think probably for me context is everything in that i can see a world in which it's a really close game and don't quite get over the line i'm probably not going to be absolutely hammering them but would that yeah okay but then you would say being harsh you'd say that's a reversion to last year potentially

17:49Alfie Reynolds: that was 24 22 yeah they should have dropped a goal they should shorge ford hit the post with a pen didn't he yeah they messed up the scrum randall fiddling at the back if there's a repeat of that you go all of the steps forward you've made you've just went one big step backwards yeah for me Yes. Progress is beating a New Zealand.

18:06Will Kelleher: Yeah, true. For me, it also probably depends on what New Zealand look like, because I still think they're a funny tip. The first half against Scotland today, I was watching that game and was just thinking New Zealand skill level is higher than Scotland's. And I think a lot of those New Zealand players, their skill level is higher than England. So if they click, they have the potential to just be better than England. Yeah. If they play like they played in the second half, yes, England should beat them. and that's where New Zealand are a funny side at the moment because previous iterations of the All Blacks are out of sight against Scotland by halftime.

18:34Will Kelleher: Well, we thought they probably were at 17-0, but they would definitely be out of sight and then all of a sudden it's 17-0. So they do leave the door ajar in a way they haven't previously, but I think it depends on what New Zealand turns up.

18:45Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, and there's a sort of wider aura thing here with New Zealand, I think, which we'll probably end up talking about in more detail over the week. But I don't know. I think there's something about them these days that doesn't feel very all-blacky. They don't feel like a team where you turn up and you go, oh, this is going to be awful today. Or you go, man, look at that 23. They've clearly, clearly got incredible players. Ardy Saver, Bowden Barrett, McKenzie, who has had an odd career, won them that game today. Yeah, brilliant. Obviously.

19:16Will Kelleher: Faiangu Anuku as well might be answering the questions of who plays 13 for them, because that's been a big debate in New Zealand.

19:21Alfie Reynolds: And look, all the stuff we've said about England with that catch pass, that kind of profligacy, That's not something that New Zealand are very bad at. They're good at that stuff. That one-shot-one-kill stuff that hasn't gone away. But I don't know. Maybe it's something that exudes out of Scott Robertson a bit. He's a little bit skittish as a head coach. He doesn't feel like he's grown into the sort of, I'm the all-black head coach, this is what we're doing. He doesn't have that presence about him. And I think that kind of exudes a bit. Like I remember his first game was June 2024, July 2024. When he was really nervous when you were out there, yeah.

19:59Alfie Reynolds: And I just can't shake this vision in my head of him being so desperately nervous. And I understand totally that he was live on TV. He's dyslexic. That was a difficult situation for him. And look, he's the old blackhead coach for the first time. He's got his dream job. But what I find interesting is, hasn't it been fascinating that he was, to the man of born it was like scott robbers a razor he must get a test job look at oh my god look out how amazing the all blacks are going to be when he takes that test job wow look what he's done with the crusaders they can't lose seven titles in a row all that and you're like had a year now a year and a half where's that it's had plenty of time there's no excuse now for being like oh well we're still finding our way do you know what i mean and look it's really hard the all blacks that preceded him have been one of the greatest teams ever 2011-15 we've talked about it and graham henry Steve Hansen like tough acts to follow the coach that got sacked slash left made a world cup final lost by a point unexpectedly maybe so tough act to follow but you're the New Zealand head coach like I feel like there needs to be a bit of a like right raise is here now and I haven't got that yet

21:01Will Kelleher: which is another reason why I think England have got a shot how do England attack then because that's one of the things watching this game today that struck me is I think England at the moment and when you listen to Steve Borthwick he says they want to be a fast ball movement attacking team different from the stereotypes and traditions of what English rugby has often been and I think you can see them try I think they are trying to do that but it's not coming off there was offload on the far hand side from where we're recording this in the first half tried to get it to Manny Fabio Boso it goes into touch Alex Mitchell had one down on the touch line in front of us here where he popped it thinking Tommy Freeman would be there and it went into touch and there were a couple of other times where they're kind of trying it but it's a bit clunky and I actually think England at the moment in this autumn anyway not so much in the summer look most comfortable when they're backing their set piece they're driving more and they're kicking to compete so what do they do against New Zealand how do they attack yeah it's fascinating

21:57Alfie Reynolds: isn't it because you're right the Steve Borthwick pitch we often use that word is that we don't have the sort of gnarly up your jumper pack that we used to do and like if you look at the team that england put on the field to beat new zealand in yokohama 2019 power power massive massive massive all over the place vuna polas to a langi like farrell they don't have that like all of these players are literally smaller blokes the back row is dynamic but what they do have is pace isn't it yeah it's ben earl and dynamism yeah but you'd probably say well ardy survey is like oh pace and dynamism is it okay probably the best of the world at that so that's fine so yeah it's fascinating But as you say, the interesting thing about this autumn is that most of their tries are coming from four metres out, aren't they?

22:43Alfie Reynolds: They're more tries. They're Cowan Dickey picking and going. They're Genge picking and going. Albeit the Genge one was off the back of a nice counter-attack, wasn't it? That was probably their best. The Toji flopping over the top. Yeah. And look, they will say like, oh, yeah, but that was the final moment of a move that was put together by da-da-da-da-da. That was always what Rob Baxter used to say when they were doing their five-metre thing. He'd be like, yeah, but you didn't talk about the 60 metres that we did before that. So, look, I understand there's context. but yeah I think that's interesting but I'm always worried when people go oh yeah well we'll put take the All Blacks up front you're like good luck like they've they have a history of being incredibly good scrummages people like Tamatai Williams is an absolute giant like we saw how they met New Zealand uh South Africa in the World Cup final the last scrum at the end of that World Cup final they smashed them didn't they and look different personnel maybe but also think about 2017 Lions first test what did New Zealand do everyone's like oh New Zealand gonna run run run run run they just smash them in the scrum like new zealand are quite good at a few things but i'm interested in that because you think do you revert do you go back to just going right best 15 to start and the bench will deal with the next best do you not think or do you try and balance it how would you do it if you were both as do you not think what we have seen the last

23:54Will Kelleher: few weeks is you need impact off the bench it is this isn't a new experience yeah like impact can

24:02Alfie Reynolds: be Pollock but it also can be Jamie George brains can't it I think it's both and this is this isn't

24:07Will Kelleher: entirely new it's been this way in international rugby for a while but you need experience and you need quality off your bench which I think means maybe a Jamie George coming off the bench um but

24:18Alfie Reynolds: it's interesting for example about the front row right so you could say best front row on paper is Genge and Stewart definitely with either Karen Dickey or George pretty similar but will they do what they did against Aussie where it's Baxter Hayes with Genge and Stewart as the kind of don't mention Eddie Jones finishers do you know what I mean so that's an interesting thing too that's one of the areas whether because they're not going to mess about a second row it'll be a Toji Chesson right yeah the back row is going to be very interesting but you suspect will be on the bench again yeah and you suspect Earls at eight and you suspect Curry starting and like man summer whenever Sam Undhill's fit he starts so maybe that's the back row and then you've got Pepper and Pollock in reserve, Cunningham South maybe as well.

24:59Alfie Reynolds: Yeah.

25:00Will Kelleher: Or Coles for a 6-E lock kind of guy. But you've already lost a lot of experience there anyway, don't you? I think that's really interesting because it's had such an impact and they're so clearly wanting that in the final 20 minutes. So what do they do there? The other big one for you, who plays 10? We've seen George Ford, we've seen Finn Smith. Who do you think Steve Borthwick goes with against the All Blacks?

25:21Alfie Reynolds: So I would and I think Steve Borthwick will pick George Ford at 10. against the All Blacks? I'd go Finn Smith. OK, so it's my pitch for Ford is that there are moments in that game today that felt like the plan needed to change. And he was very good at that and talked about it well afterwards in Australia where it's like, the thing we're doing now isn't really working. New plan, huddle up, change it. And Finn Smith will get there. He's got 12 caps or something. But I think for the game that England will probably want to play, I think George Ford is the best 10 for Saturday I'm not saying he's will be the best for the next 50 tests or whatever but I think for this game against the All Blacks I would like to have Ford at 10 and Finn Smith on the bench I don't feel like Marcus is going to come into that conversation we talked about that so and then the interesting thing I guess with the back three is Stuart Roebuck how fit are they but for me it's Ford 10 what you give the Finn Smith pitch why him well you

26:19Will Kelleher: You may have won me over with the kind of game management, adapting in-game stuff with George Ford. I think that's totally, totally fair and totally accurate. The reason I said Finn Smith, and I said it in a video I did just before we started recording this. Have you got a YouTube channel? I do. I never plug it normally on the pod. Oh, you should go and get it.

26:36Alfie Reynolds: What's it called?

26:36Will Kelleher: Alfred Reynolds Rugby? Alfie Reynolds Rugby on YouTube. I said Finn Smith because his defence is better. Okay, yeah. And I thought we saw it today. That's true. England really struggled at times though. They were on the back foot and I actually thought Finn Smith with him and Ollie Lawrence did a fairly good job and they were often still giving up meters because you've got two or so running at you but I felt like he did a better job there and George Ford can get George Ford can be more exposed defensively.

27:06Alfie Reynolds: He sometimes just gets run over. Yeah. That's just true isn't it? And actually yeah now you've said that you reminded me of I was sitting next to Alex waiting so quite early on Fiji had a like line out exit thing and you knew exactly what was happening and I was like oh that's interesting Lawrence is at 12 yeah and you're like it's just over and I just think and they and they dealt with him really well actually and it was a Finsmith Lawrence double tackle yeah which is what

27:30Will Kelleher: they did a couple of times and I just think New Zealand with Surveyor Wallace Satiti Lester Faiingranuku depends who they pick on their wings coming off their wing I just think they would potentially look at George Ford defensively as a weakness. I suppose the argument is I'm picking someone almost because of what George Ford can't do as well as what Finn Smith can do, whereas you're looking more at how George Ford is going to impact the game positively.

27:55Alfie Reynolds: Look, it's a great argument for both of them. Yeah. And look, England are blessed to have those options, right? I think if I were doing it, my order would be Ford with Finn Smith on the bench with the view that Finn could cover 12 and use that banging ability and second playmaking ability to unlock some holes in the final 20. That does seem to be a plan with England. They do want to use him as a 12. Is that a plan they're going to deploy against the All Blacks? Well, why not? I don't know what else you'd do, really, because I think Lawrence has got to play. Are we agreed on that? He's done enough there.

28:29Alfie Reynolds: It's a hard context to play, but to me, he's obviously the best midfielder England have got.

28:35Will Kelleher: Yeah, I'm not totally against Freeman getting more game time there. But yeah, for the All Blacks, 100 % Lawrence plays.

28:40Alfie Reynolds: But this is where the whole win now versus develop later thing. You just go, if the balance is sort of 70-30 towards win now, the balance for this week is 99 % win now. Like, beat the All Blacks. The amount of sort of positivity and momentum and belief that you will get from being the ninth England team ever, ever to beat the All Blacks, ahead of, come on, I'm going to do the list, get this right. 1936, Prince Obolensky. 1973 in Eden Park. 1983, 1993, Kieran Bracken got stamped on by Jamie Joseph. 02, Johnny Wilkinson, chip and score under the post here. 03, Wellington. Then 2012, Lanny's Glory, Manu running over everyone.

29:25Alfie Reynolds: And then 19, Yokohama. This would be the ninth ever, ever England win. So all chips are on, win now. and I think you just have to pick the best, gnarliest, most experienced FU team to beat New Zealand.

29:39Will Kelleher: Well, let us know. Email theruckatthetimes.co.uk. It's me, Elgin and Barnsley in studio on Monday. So I'll definitely be asking Barnsley for his take on the England 10 position. Who should play 10 against the All Blacks? Send us an email. Let's wrap up here, Will. One thing we actually haven't mentioned from the Fiji game. Manny Fawaboso? I mean, I'm glad he didn't land on his head. that was for a moment was like blimey but yeah it was really it's like sickening you're watching

30:06Alfie Reynolds: him in the air going like then he just bounced back up and went on a counter-attack or wanted so Robert Tomata took him out in the air really quite reckless clumsy got given a yellow for a bunker that stayed a yellow thoughts well my instinct was yellow's probably fair because he

30:23Will Kelleher: didn't land on his head but I don't know if that comes into it or not so to me the reason why he

30:28Alfie Reynolds: didn't land on his head is because he his arms were in front of his head he put like anyone would brace themselves he put your arms in front of you if he didn't like if he hadn't done that he would have been full on his forehead and like i remember it made me think of elliot daly got a red card when there weren't 20 minute red cards against is it senator i think really early on in argentina game yes in maybe 2017 i'm gonna say 2016 and got a straight red and everyone went oh wow it was like the early early-ish days of like full no no taking anyone out in the air thing and that was not anywhere near as bad as that like and i think almost fey reboso helped out by the fact that he bounced up immediately he like he i always think he looks like a rubber man anyway because he's just so like elastic when he goes through holes and stuff like that and he kind of did it there he got up so quickly that everyone went oh oh thank god he's fine and almost he was like all right i want to run off and go and score but i don't know that looks really quite a nasty one and look he wasn't trying to do that but he came in so hard totally mistimed it i don't know i think i would

31:31Will Kelleher: have gone 20 minute red for that do you think it's the unintended consequence of the change in the law for sure yeah because they get more of a run at it but then definitely but then i would

31:40Alfie Reynolds: also say encouraged to go for that contest now because there's no protection there's none in the way yeah but you have to be so careful that you are going to come a cropper at some point aren't they yeah and it's interesting like i saw i interviewed noah calori on thursday before the england aid game and poor bloke from the bits i saw he hardly got the ball in that game give him a big sell um but i was look and we know from the six seven matches of experience we've seen with him that he's insanely good under the high ball and i was asking him about that thing of like is there anything in your head that goes i or have you ever been clattered or like he did get taken out in the air by tomo flackety didn't he in that sale game and got a pen try yellow card to benet which would have been his sixth try if he if they got that but he was a look you have to have the mindset that he has but he was going you just got to go i'm the best in the world at this i'm going to catch that ball no doubt whatever but you sort of think if both players are thinking like that and neither pull out it's it actually reminds me a bit you know when a high ball goes up in the cricket field and you you can see as the in the stands or on the telly that two are running towards each other and you're like don't hit each other oh no no no no no no it sometimes feels like that and i just pray that we don't have a sickener at some point because yeah it's fair it is dangerous isn't it yeah it's entertaining because there's not that sort of escorting thing anymore and we get to see the athleticism of the players batting or catching the ball but you do worry that there's going to be a horrible one at some point okay well then we will leave it

33:05Will Kelleher: there here from twickenham send us your emails for who should start at 10 for england if you want to give us your thoughts on the game as well feel free to do so the ruck at the times.co.uk so i'll be back as i've said already monday with elvin stewart barnes will be chatting to mark palmer as well to look back on on scotland's defeat against new zealand if he's got over it yeah i was messaging in the sexy studio he expected it new studio new studio um and later on next

33:31Alfie Reynolds: week will building up well we won't mention the name yet but there are intense negotiations to secure a goat for the pod later in the week so stay tuned possibly has been on the pod before possibly be on it again and i think i think i think you'll be pretty impressed yeah let's see we're blowing our own horn or anything we're digging into his contact book uh we'll leave

33:55Will Kelleher: it there we'll be back with you monday loads more stuff coming next week as we build up to new zealand And what a tantalizing game that is going to be with England taking on the All Blacks. Follow and subscribe from wherever you get your pods from. Will, see you next week. See you next week. Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice.

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