England 'obliterated' by ruthless South Africa

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1:02Hello and welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times and we're standing here in a dark and gloomy Ellis Park after Springboks 45, England 21. The Nations Championship is off to a losing start for Steve Borswick in England. It's their fifth Test defeat in a row and I'm here with Charlie Morgan. Hello pal. and Alex Lowe. Hello. Standing in this epic sort of coliseum of rugby where well what do we think England rallied after a horrendous start 17-0 down after 10 minutes but ultimately were long second best is that your thoughts on the game Alex?

1:43Alex Lowe: Yeah it is I was just looking around this old stadium and you wonder one day whether they will have to knock this down and rebuild it but it is a special place and up here the you know darkness falls quickly as the sun goes down and and england were enveloped in the same sort of sense of of blackness 12 13 minutes in they were obliterated i'm sure i wasn't in the press conference afterwards but i'm sure steve will have clutched onto the the spirit they showed to close within three by half time two really well taken tries i thought finn smith was was pretty big in that in that period kirtley aarons was off the field in the sim bin but it was a false position because there wasn't a single element of that game in which England could could feel like they had the better of South Africa and so coming out at half time it felt to me like South Africa were just like okay England you've you've had a bit of fun you've got yourselves back in South Africa controlled the entire second half they yeah and the reason I couldn't see England coming back in was they couldn't get any purchase at the breakdown they were being smashed at the breakdown they couldn't win the aerial battle south africa had had their mall uh purring they had just brute force physicality which we know they have even without even at tibeth and sia kalisi even without six or seven of their their biggest most fierce forwards you don't get a weak buck unit they're going to come at you physically and England couldn't match the physicality and they couldn't cope with the fluid brilliance of players like Damian Volemsa and they were a long way short in this game.

3:22Alex Lowe: I never thought England would win this game but I thought they had to put up a fight and I don't really think they did and I thought it was pretty alarming. So let's give our listeners who aren't here because there weren't that many England fans here I think we counted a handful of white jerseys on the way in but a bit of colour from the journey in because I think maybe there's some context here with how England started and there's no excuses here for a really poor start but this is a hostile part of

3:50Charlie Morgan: town. Do you think they were overwhelmed? It's quite a it's a visceral place isn't it and it felt there were a lot more people sort of around the ground before we came in when we're trying to sort of navigate our way through the from the sort of main road and yeah through the sort of town towards where we were allowed to park, it really felt like it could have got on top of the visiting team. But I just felt like we'd... I was with you, Alex. I thought that if they'd played well, then they could have been sort of within a score of South Africa. And I actually thought there weren't... And I was encouraged by the talk of England dismissing excuses in the run-up to this, not talking about altitude, not talking about their...

4:31Charlie Morgan: or asking, not sort of saying they weren't going to talk about their own injuries. and I thought that was great because I thought they had sort of more recent experience of playing together. They'd had that performance in Paris. They had South Africa themselves had said that England have a lot of form players and they pick form players and yet they started like a rusty, meek, ill-disciplined... They started with the worst of what they started with in the Six Nations. Failing and Steve Borthwick sort of zoned in on the high ball stuff. That was one area. Yeah, Thinsmith there, his sort of quotes are embargoed to a bit later, but I think we could say he was pretty disgusted at the start, how easy England...

5:12Charlie Morgan: Soft was a word that he used. Which is actually a punchy word for an England player who's about themselves, isn't it? It really is, and it looked like that. And it looked like that, and they did rally well, but I just thought that after watching it live, the intensity with which South Africa went after the breakdown and strangled England there and made them play off slow ball and then pushed up and made it difficult to move the ball wider and to get the ball into it. I mean, how many times was Feo Oboso used in attacking phase? Hardly ever. How many times was the ball that Marcus Smith was running were the tap backs that his wingers were giving to him?

5:49Charlie Morgan: It felt like England carved out that 20 minutes to save themselves a bit and the rest of the time they were firefighting desperately. Yeah, it was funny because when we got off our van that brought us in here, there was a lot of hollering and shouting and things like that like you're the only British here you're gonna get a hiding all this sort of stuff like what you'd expect from a chest out South African public who they don't lose here very often and when they do it's an alarming thing back-to-back world champions and the power in the team despite all the people out Alex but it I don't know whether the players felt that themselves or whether there's almost like too much respect given to the box early on they even talk all week about the way they want to play and move the ball but they were just walloped within 10 minutes i i don't know if they gave too much

6:36Alex Lowe: i don't think they were allowed to so charlie said were england overwhelmed i i didn't feel yeah there's a lot of like very south african the brides and the smoke and the i guess wonderful sort of atmosphere but i didn't feel that inside the stadium it was particularly hostile they were overwhelmed by what came charging at them the hostility of the carrying in the first 13 minutes Like Ox and Che running straight through two of England's best forwards, George and Chesson, was just like, whoa. That is what was so alarming about it. He ran through Jamie George and then he ran through Tom Curry and Oli Chesson.

7:12Alex Lowe: And they just married the blend of power and creativity just so perfectly. And what was alarming for England was that they didn't seem to have any way to stem the bleeding. and they were overwhelmed and they were frazzled because they just kept gifting more opportunities to South Africa who just kept running over the top of them or around them or through them and so they really were overwhelmed and it took a minute and it took the sin-billing for someone to almost say to them, they also went down the other end and then didn't score which just compounded the pressure they were under and they were overwhelmed And, you know, I don't think consciously they'd have thought like this, but that was a Springboks team that was missing, as we discussed earlier, it was missing Vilko Lowe, it was missing Argy Schneiman and Mostert and Lou Diego and Quacker Smith.

8:10Alex Lowe: and then it was missing Sia Kalisi and even Etzabeth whether they came in thinking right we can impose ourselves here because they are short on experience now and on enforcers and it's like the box right from the outset the kick-off went to Ben Earle and within a split second of him catching it he was cut in half by Kirtley Aronser which set the tone and then Marcus Smith knocks it on to Tommy Freeman who picks it up accidental offside penalty and from then England are swamped and they can't breathe. It's like they were shocked by what came at them and that's what I can't quite understand about why they couldn't dig their heels in and react.

8:55Alex Lowe: And I think it's because it was just relentless wave after wave. But it's like they were shocked and they shouldn't have been shocked but they were. And we'll do lots on England and the box through this pod but on the other side, didn't that opening three-try burst show the perfect cocktail of the box? The ultimate power and then the sidestepping where you can't touch Cheslin Colby. Cade and Murley, bless him, went for him and didn't even touch him.

9:25Charlie Morgan: Nobody in the world's tackling Cheslin Colby in that. With that step that actually looks like a springbok, like an actual animal springbok in the wild, doesn't it? That way he just goes boom on one foot. They connected their game so nicely, the Springboks. But how about as a way to epitomise the two sides, how they had to regroup after their losses on the day of the game. So the Springboks, as Alex has just mentioned, lose Ibn Exabeth and Siaklisi. They go into the game with one specialist lock and two guys there who can do it, and they still squeeze England's set piece. I thought the key moments were after halftime when it was another penalty off the back of a kick, wasn't it?

10:02Charlie Morgan: That they get straight early in the second half. They go to the mall and then they just, that's where they sense blood and that's where they squeeze England in. At that mall would probably be the help of these new mauling guidelines. But flip it around a second, England lose George Furbank on the day of the game or the night before the game. And immediately it feels like they're a more fragile prospect. And England are at this stage where they are putting stock in players, the idea of players almost. Because George Furbank hasn't played since for so long. George Martin was returning after a long while Emmanuel Feoboso was returning after a long they feel like a bits and pieces team at the minute and the thing that they probably need is patience, yet also it feels like they've burnt up a lot of patience while trying to get to this and having these false starts and having these one step forward, two steps back little periods, it's really difficult, it really is difficult We were talking in the hotel, so the news broke on Saturday morning that George Furbank was out and And what a horrible run of luck he's having.

11:06So the news on that, if anyone didn't read it before the game, is that he saw us on Thursday evening, did some media. Friday he trained at the captain's run. After Friday he has a blow-up of appendicitis. Saturday morning he has surgery to whip out his appendix, misses the game, and he's now not going to fly home with the team. But I agree with Charlie. As soon as that happened, you thought, any chance England had of winning this game is over now and won't the box see Marcus Smith at 15 and Caden Merle on the left wing and just go bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb. And they did. And actually, they did admirably at times, those two Harlequins guys, didn't they?

11:48But I think Steve Borthwick had a stat ready after the game that South Africa won seven contestable kicks back and England won maybe a couple. And it felt more of that, more of the stats on the field, didn't it?

11:59Charlie Morgan: Yeah, but tactically, England's wings were retreating to take it. That was the kind of tack that they took for it. The swinging winger thing that Bristol have done. Yeah, that Bristol have done and France have done. And they were retreating to tap it back to Marcus Smith. That's always going to be a little bit messy. The box went the other way, which was with Damien Valenza coming forward and bossing that area. And he didn't win every single one. But when he did, the box were on the front foot and able to play off it a lot better. and that sort of summed it up to me. The little details, in accuracy as well as intensity, the Springbok showed England the standards.

12:39Alex Lowe: It also depends how you define winning a contestable because if you're running backwards to claim the ball and you get it, but the moment you land you're absolutely smoked on the floor, it's not really of any great use, is it? They won that ball. Yeah, it's of no use and that was the problem. Even if they pulled the ball out of the sky, they were levelled as soon as they hit the dirt And again, if we go back to that point, I just don't see what area of the game England could hold on to as something that they could be proud of today. And that was the problem. I never saw England winning this game.

13:13Alex Lowe: They were really confident. And I think losing Furbank really hit them psychologically. I think they saw him as probably their most important player. Now, obviously, had they lost Ellis Genge or Joe Hayes to a pre-match injury, then their front row would have been really exposed, and you'd think that the box would have targeted there even more. We didn't have a scrum for ages in this game. We certainly had a completed scrum. I think England felt that finally they were able to field Finn Smith and Furbank together, and that combination could unlock what is a really promising back line for England.

13:51Alex Lowe: who, like, there are players who want to make things happen. You know, they didn't just settle into just playing route one narrow rugby. They were trying. Finn Smith was, it was like he was like, if he's going to go down, I'm going to go down fighting. Made a couple of breaks. Made a couple of breaks. There was that ball to Atkinson. If that had stuck, does that change the last 20 minutes possibly?

14:16Charlie Morgan: That was when South Africa were 10 ahead. Yeah, so it would have gone back to just three.

14:19Alex Lowe: But I just don't think it does change anything because England had moments, but they didn't have any control of the game. So that whole second half, England scored one try and maybe would have got another if he'd squeezed that ball out to Atkinson. But was there any other passage or area of the game where they had control? And that's what I mean. So they did score three tries, but they were like small periods of time that didn't actually reflect anything else that happened in the game. the thing that I'd like to talk about for a couple of minutes and then we'll get on to maybe the rally I suppose which was the sort of the bit that they'll cling to the contestable kicking thing is fascinating to me because that was England's only source of tries a year ago nearly, not quite only source of tries but they were incredibly dominant in that area albeit in a period where they didn't play South Africa in 2025 it was the way that they beat teams, it was the way they stitched together that 11 test match winning run and it's remarkable to see with not that many different personnel appreciate Roebuck was key to it, Stuart was part of it, they're not here or Stuart's here but he's injured but it's amazing how it's flipped completely and sort of the irony is on the bounce of the ball right because it was always a randomizer the ball in the air with this escorting thing and England were winning loads of them in the 25 and put that run together and scoring tries off at the back of it we saw Pollock didn't we we've seen Earl going in rope all these things we can point to and now they can't win one and they're trying to get out of playing this contestable kicking way they're trying to move it away from that but the box are like happy days boys we'll pin them into these channels down the wing and we'll just keep them here this is lovely for us as we said this this was the worst game that Steve Balfour could have faced at this point Quite an exposing match for all sorts of reasons.

16:16Alex Lowe: Yeah, when you're trying to build confidence in a way of playing and build confidence in a new leadership team. I think Finn Smith, who we've mentioned, and Ollie Chesson have been really big for England this week behind the scenes. None of that matters because you lose on Saturday, but they are trying to build something or pull themselves out of a hole that they were in in the Six Nations by changing things. to then have to bring that here on day one against the world champions. Now, as we've said, even a world champion shorn of maybe seven or eight of their best 23, they have so much depth and quality that this is the worst and most exposing place that Steve Borthick could have brought England.

16:59Alex Lowe: And therefore, what they needed to do was show something. And they showed a bit of heart. But by the end, they were a rabble. England were down to 13 men again by the finish. penalties and cards were just killing them again it's the same story now this was this was pressure sometimes in the six nations it didn't feel like the stupid decisions that were made were out of pressure they were just bad decisions here i feel it was more to do with the build up of their life at the end build up a pressure because they they were they were out of the game so incredibly exposing place to bring a it's not a new team but a team that's trying to to discover or rediscover its character and its personality and its style of play and a game plan it believes in.

17:45Alex Lowe: Jamie George, I asked him about the game plan and does everyone buy into it now because it was pretty evident in the Six Nations that they didn't. And he was categorically, yes, I'm excited. Everyone's contributing, we love it. We didn't see it at all, I don't think. And that's credit to the box, I guess, for taking it away from them. Absolutely, which is why it's the worst place to have tried to launch this next phase for England. Another new era. But you can't pick and choose your fixtures. And what it does now is pile enormous pressure on the Fiji game and the Argentina game because I don't think they can afford to lose either of those.

18:20Alex Lowe: If they do, then you're looking at a negative summer which follows the worst ever Six Nations and really tricky questions will end up being asked. So hold that thought. We'll get back on to the wider picture. but let's talk a little bit about the rally because we were sitting next to each other in the seats we're standing at now looking out at England 17-0 down after 10 or so minutes, 12 minutes going, oh my lord this is going to get this could be 50, this could be sort of nil, this could be really really ugly and one of those days where you go I'm afraid that's it you can't come back from that as a coach, however there was a very creditable rally albeit didn't amount to too much but look they go down with Thomas De Toys try Colby as we described and then Kirtley Arons would go in then Arons would go in the bin England score a couple and then they're suddenly 17-14 at half time and you're going well okay there's a bit of spirit there's a bit of heart Charlie like that is the bit they're clinging on to Jamie George afterwards was like minutes 10 to 40 is the blueprint of how we want to play and he was saying I've spoken to mates in the Springbok team that I know and they said we were in a test match but then you listen to Peter Stefft-Toy and he's like to an extent I was very interested

19:41Charlie Morgan: with Jamie George saying that and saying that we had we kind of put them under pressure and I said I asked Peter Stefft-Toy how much pressure he basically felt under and how much he sort of and he is not going to give an inch I actually felt Razzie's gaze sort of on me when I asked that question which was quite interesting but no I think he just said look they put us they actually sort of insinuated that england won the kicking battle for a bit and it felt a bit like 2023 all over again and that's where they got their pressure from i actually think it felt like they got it from from exerting pressure with the running game it sort of all sparked from well if we think about it it all sparked from finn smith making a break then jack van portfleet taking the ball flat and offloading to finn smith running flat um earl made a little break on the sort of right hand side genge was carrying hard um atkinson was carrying hard it It was eventually Genji's quick tap that...

20:35Charlie Morgan: They got unlucky with two...

20:38Alex Lowe: They tried to beat the Blitz a couple of times with angled grubbers into the corner, which just didn't quite bounce. Very nearly came off.

20:43Charlie Morgan: Yeah, so Finsmith's kicking game was exerting pressure. He was teasing the box back three and finding space there. The Kirtli-Orensa yellow actually came from them trying to beat the Blitz with a bridge pass as well. So they were rewarded for their ambition. It's been so interesting to watch a load of games today and I think we can now almost pretty safely say that although the kicking game is super important and these contestables remain, how well you manage those situations is still really, really important. But I do think that more and more teams are being rewarded for keeping the ball in hand and having the ability to just retain possession and almost reset when you do lose a bit of pressure.

21:27Charlie Morgan: England, ironically, George Furbank spoke really well about it, didn't he, in the week about how England are going to get whacked behind the game line and it's up to us to sort of work it out and figure out. I thought a big thing maybe, I just think, while they're learning, while they're figuring all this out against a really good defence like South Africa's, Tommy Freeman at 13 feels a bit lost to me. Or just a sort of work in progress that people are going to have to be more patient than they're willing to be with, certainly supporters. Tommy, Benard, Janssen, and Rendsburg's eligible from the 8th of July.

22:02Charlie Morgan: Do you put him in at 13 and keep set it back into now? He's going to be in a 23 somewhere, isn't he? But England's game as a 12. But do you now shelve the Tommy Freeman at 13? He just has so much more freedom at 14, being able to come off his wing, and especially, I think, in harness with Finn Smith. So all of this feels to me that it's one step forward, one step back.

22:27Alex Lowe: So you're right in how you analyse that comeback that England had. And it was through the skill. And when I said earlier you wouldn't see any of their game plan, I'm wrong in that because we did see it in that period. But the reason it doesn't feel to me like we particularly saw it is because it came, and you see this very often in games, it came at a point where the box was sort of taking a breather. Do you know what I mean? To then go again in the last quarter. You come out and smash England for 20 minutes. You're 17-0 up in, well, less than that, 13 minutes. Then you sort of have the big intake of breath.

23:04Alex Lowe: Oh, you lose a guy to the bin. And Ox and Che went off, to be fair as well. Ox and Che went off injured. And so then England go, well, we're going to run at you. And they have some success at it. And like I've said before, Finn Smith deserves enormous credit, I think, for the way that he tried everything in this game. And so, yeah, that would be a blueprint for how England would want to play. But they have to realise that they did it at a point where South Africa were probably at their most vulnerable in the game. Having surged into the lead, having lost two key players quite quickly, England did all right.

23:38Alex Lowe: But what fascinates me about the team that Borthwick is trying to build is that he talks to us a lot now about how this England don't have a pack of forwards who can mix it physically with the best in the world so he wants them to to be quick and mobile but what South Africa showed today is that if you can't you can't do anything else off the back of it and you know and I know Furback talked about well we're gonna get driven backwards and then how do we find the solutions but they didn't have any because other than the period when they did take control which coincided with with South Africa taking that intake of breath almost, they had no way of getting into the game, no way of bringing that running game and that skill and bringing the best of that back line, which has immense potential if it has momentum and quick ball.

24:30Alex Lowe: But they got destroyed at the breakdown, so the ball was never in a position, the momentum was never there for them to do anything with.

24:37Charlie Morgan: Felt so stodgy in the middle of the pitch. and that was the kind of, they just were so ferocious at the break down the box and I think a lot of it was, it was a real ask for forgiveness, not permission sort of mindset. They were flying off their feet a lot of the time, going really hard at the ball. They're hanging on to the ball a lot, even when they're on their knees and everything. But that, you know, all power to them. You read what you get from the referee and if you're being allowed to do that, then you should do that and England don't really have the Jackalers to do that And that was shown in the way that the Springboks just built up so much momentum through their face play, with their carriers, but also with the breakdown.

25:18Charlie Morgan: And they were ruthless off the top of that. Yeah, can I do... Well, I did the ratings for the Springboks, so I was maybe watching out for them a little bit more, as you naturally do. And can we... Because the next... One of the guys I'm going to mention here was one of the key guys who scored a try. But I just love watching... firstly Damien Bolemsi but also Grant Williams like the way he sort of fished at the line and then went through the hole opened up the game after half time didn't it? Big break I'm just pointing at the pitch which is not great for a podcast but really great break when he's given a sliver of light I think between Coles and Martin at a line out and all of a sudden he's gone 50 metre break how cool does he look in open space just so comfortable well balanced

26:01Alex Lowe: that try I mean I could just imagine what Steve Borthit was shouting and saying in the England coaches box because that try came from a mall penalty which is exactly the penalty that the swing box had lobbied for referees to award and Steve Borthwick in not answering the question answer the question he's against what the box have managed to force through and yet there you go that was the moment when they just came out second half penalty mall penalty pressure try from Clark Williams where he just yeah he just does that runs that line convinces everyone he's he's crabbing and about a pass and then cuts through um devastating it's like Colby isn't it it's like the speed of the sidestep is so devastating that you can't react quick enough like lots of people can sidestep but it's maybe it's like watching Jason Robinson 25 years ago it's like how do you defend that it's the it's the combo of of not only selling at the dummy with your body language but then having just such like the fast twitch i was just going to say the same things that amazing fast twitch right it's like that's just pure athleticism and then bring that bring that on to then volem say and like i know you you love bomb him a lot because he's like one of your favorite players of all time but he's how good was he so he's so good isn't he but the thing i love about him is that he looks good but he's also a savage like he's he's a horrible guy but man he looks good while doing it I'm not saying horrible as in he's cheating or anything like that but he just, the way he like whacks into contact he's like sinewy as well as there was a passage today where he launches a counter attack some nice passing and then the box can't quite hold on falls to Marcus Smith who just kind of hoofs get it anywhere out of here kind of clearance just desperately under pressure trying to relieve comes back to Valencia who's on about five metres in from the touchline and curves this just like staggering 50-22 with no angle to play and it was like he cut England with the ball in hand, England like scramble, desperately clear their lines falls back to the same guy who then just kills them, like returns serve kills them again with this ridiculous 50-22 It's like you and Paddle isn't it?

28:29Alex Lowe: Well, I'm probably the only time I'll ever be compared to Damian Volemza. And, you know, he's making those arcing runs. But as you say, he's physical as well. He's just complete at the moment. He is now, like I remember thinking this about Jordi Barrett at times, where you could put him in any position on the field and you know he'd be world class and there's nothing he couldn't do. And that's where Volemza is now in his game, just in complete control of all aspects of the game.

28:58Charlie Morgan: How good are the ball? It's important to keep in context how good they are. And I think it really looked like first in the world versus sixth in the world, but also a first in the world that is edging away maybe from everybody else as far as the depth and the quality. And some of their very best players, Peter stuffed a toy today. The moment that there was an aerial contest and it broke to him and he loped up the pitch again, looked so composed in the ball and flipped an offload that Malcolm Marks should really have held. and that would have been another sort of breakaway try. He just is really man-against-boys stuff watching him.

29:34Charlie Morgan: And it's a real treat to watch him. Yeah, on that note, Charlie, that box point, I guess it's difficult to judge because we haven't seen the box for a few months. Yeah. They are playing against an England team without a clear identity and aren't coming here fully loaded and ready to win, let's be honest. But when you've been here today, watching them at Ellis Park, knowing what they've got to come with the greatest rivalry and then the other half of the nation's championship, then the World Cup. Do they look like a team that can be toppled in your mind? Because it's probably easy to just go, oh yes, it's going to be an inexorable march to the third World Cup.

30:11But when you're leaving Johannesburg, are you going, man, the box, how does anyone beat them?

30:16Charlie Morgan: Sides will be better equipped than England to have a good crack at it. As I say, England look like the sixth best side in the world today, if not further down that in their lowest moments, certainly at the start. But I think when they get on a roll, both as far as their impetus within games and then if you think about their overarching thing of being, it's this virtuous circle where they're bringing through players. As we say, it bears repeating, they had Khaleesi and Etzabeth drop out today, two iconic all-time greats, and yet they didn't skip a beat and they pressurised England in areas that those players are exceptional at, the more the defensive breakdown and just a little snapshot of where they're going I guess and how they continue to get better.

30:58Charlie Morgan: Zach Porthen came on, forces a scrum penalty, carries with unbelievably destructively right at the end of the game and was part of the effort that almost threatened to really kind of crush England's spirit right at the end of that game so yeah it's ominous, it's ominous stuff isn't it? At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible. From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech so you can outthink, outpace, and outperform. PwC, so you can.

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33:05Alex, do they, well, it's hard to, it's hard maybe to judge it as we said on just today, but when you look at what they didn't have and what they've got to come back, do you think who's going to stop the box? How does someone drag them off the top of the world by the time the World Cup comes? We know sometimes the World Cup will be a bounce of a ball and a one-point game that will fall the other way for them.

33:27Alex Lowe: But they probably will be on the tough side of the draw with France and New Zealand. New Zealand. In the quarter, perhaps. This will reflect on a point that we haven't made a little bit before, but it's Razzi's management of his resources. so yeah Peter Steph steps in place today just ridiculously good he's played three club games in two years in Japan but they they just know that put a green and gold jersey on him and you'll get that kind of performance but what's so not even comforting but like encouraging for the box is they can be without all of these big name players and know that they can turn up and so well and And basically, I know we're sort of struggling to know what England are, but they were a disallied try away from putting 50 on another one of the bigger teams in the world without half their team.

34:21Alex Lowe: Yeah, so if they are managing certain players through, let's say they don't make it to the World Cup. Panicom's all right. Yeah, the quality doesn't drop. The style doesn't change. You know, these guys are chiselled out of the same block, just huge units. And so they can, Razzie's building this depth, as we've discussed, where the next cab off the rank knows and understands exactly what's required of him. You take that number of players out of the All Blacks team at the moment, certainly the England team or the Australia team, even the France team, you take that number of key players out. no one has got that level of depth or certainly not got that level of depth with the understanding and identity of being able to just come and and fill in without anyone missing a beat now we've seen today earlier today two cracking games in the southern hemisphere New Zealand France and Australia Ireland both went to the wire two two sides like you know punching each other the other responds with a try it's like brilliant rugby to watch you feel watching them particularly the all blacks with Rennie they are all going to get better the box are are setting the standard and and getting better almost getting deeper as they get better their improvements will be in their depth I think England like when can we when did they start you know they're trying to impose something as we said in the teeth of the the most ferocious storm here and they get beaten up they're not gonna have to do it under even greater pressure because there is the makings of a bat line there but as you said right at the start it's taken a lot of patience it's now five consecutive test defeats and i was thinking like when was the last time it was five it was actually only about two years ago they had five consecutive test defeats like this is what England are getting to is is unconvincing right now if you know what I mean under Borthwick it's like boom and bust that's what I'm trying to say it's like a run of bad defeats and then oh we found something a strategy that's going to work 11 wins in a row like not all of them against great opposition but 11 wins and now they've hit the skids again and it's five defeats in a row and for me it all comes back round to this English question of does it really matter to the RFU in England what they do between World Cups because there's no evidence that they that it really matters to them and Steve Balfour will be trying to build enough so that when he gets his players in camp pre-World Cup they'll go into that tournament with a puncher's chance on probably the easier side of the draw and it's a it's a major issue in English rugby that which Eddie Jones touched upon an interview in the Sunday Times at the weekend that mediocrity is accepted and that is I don't think you can argue that and and so while all these other teams seem to be thriving and growing and building where are England so some stats to back up our thinking here so currently Steve Borthwick's all-time win rate is knocking around 56 57 percent in the in the time that he's had since 2023 when he took over and and the other fascinating thing i find is that today was his 46th test as an england coach and he's already had two runs of five test defeats in a row in that time and if you're looking in so i just did some quick research after the game and this is just in the professional era so haven't gone back to 1904 for this but if you look at the worst runs in English rugby they often get to five and then they stop the rot or they don't and the coach gets sacked so the evidence of that is the five match run 2014 Lancaster four New Zealand one South Africa of all the five to lose that's all right it's sort of all right and the fact that he kept finishing second in the Six Nations.

38:30The next one after that was another five-match run, 2018 under Eddie Jones, Scotland, France, Ireland, South Africa, South Africa, incredibly similar to what we've got now in 2026, albeit he had a three-test series against South Africa, which is much harder than what England have got coming, let's be honest, and they won the sixth one, what would have been the sixth one, with Danny Cipriani saving his job in Cape Town. Then we've got two Borthwick ones. We've got this one, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, France, South Africa, with Fiji at home, in inverted commas, to come, and then Argentina. And then the other Borthwick one was actually sort of ostensibly harder, which again was another three New Zealand, one Australia, one South Africa.

39:11And then the one that sort of tipped over the edge was Andy Robinson in 2006, Scotland, France, Ireland, Australia, Australia, New Zealand. They actually then won against South Africa and then lost to them in November, and he got sacked after that.

39:24Alex Lowe: Do you remember that 24 run that I mentioned and you just talked about there, under Borthwick, New Zealand, New Zealand, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa? They were all the one-score defeats. Two of them were in New Zealand where England came out with an identity and a purpose and a blitz defence and they went at teams and just couldn't quite nail it. But we came back from that New Zealand tour thinking, this team's going somewhere. It actually felt quite positive. and obviously they blew the Australia game Suri Elite's debut they should have won that but again they'd scored a whole host of points over 30 points there's a lot there they just need to nail it and it was getting to a point where the Safuka as well they were close they were mixing it with the best teams in the world and losing and it became there were so many of them that you're like there's a failing here and he identified that failing which was the last 20 minutes fix it with the bench and off you go, England are suddenly turning those narrow losses into wins.

40:24Alex Lowe: But in that run of five, they were mixing it with the best teams in the world. And now they're not. And now they're not. Although they would say they did with France, but that was a very different context. But it's contextual. If something's on the line, are England mixing it with the best teams in the world? No.

40:40Charlie Morgan: They were nowhere near as bad as they were against Ireland. No, no. That was a really jarring one. The manner of the Scotland one was jarring. I think this in a different way was jarring because of how far away they looked at times and how they spoke before the game versus how they started the game. I think that's going to really hurt them. And it should really hurt them.

41:05Charlie Morgan: I'm with you a bit. I felt like that shaped the rest of the game. And it was almost as if that took the shine off what they managed to produce between in the second quarter, which is what they've spoken about in the second quarter, but there isn't quite that weight there because it felt like the shape of the game had already been taken. So Alex, if we're distilling this and we're going to have a lot of these sorts of conversations, I imagine, over the next 12, 15 pods that we probably do over the next few weeks, but at what point does it have to be the end? if it gets there because Fiji in Everton next week is a game that England really cannot lose.

41:53Fiji are an excellent team. They lost to Wales today. Wales seemingly putting it up the jumper a little bit and Jack Morgan having a great game. And then Argentina after that is a game that England won. I know both teams are fairly rotated but they won there only a summer ago. So at what point, Alex, do we get to with the RFU who have re-strengthened their support for Steve Borthwick where they have to have another look?

42:20Alex Lowe: Well, let's go back to getting on the train, Will, from Rome to Verona in the Six Nations to read the RFU's position on this, which was to essentially give Steve Borthwick four games to prove, to demonstrate that he can lift England out of the hole they're in to fix all the problems that beset them in the Six Nations, everything from leadership issues to discipline problems to an inability to score points. They gave him four games. Then came the review and a backing of the head coach through to the World Cup, but with no public explanation as to what it was that gave him that confidence to back him.

43:00Alex Lowe: My sense was that the point was made to the RFU that this is a really difficult tour, he's going to rest his captain, he wanted to rest a couple of other players, this isn't the time to judge England and the project that's what I sense happened with a commitment to try and change the way they're going to play to grow the leadership group Finn Smith, Olly Chessham etc so I just go back to that point where what the RFU felt after the loss in Italy they wanted to see by the end of this summer tangible evidence that England were back on the right track that they were going to grow out of the the hole that they dug for themselves in the Six Nations.

43:39Alex Lowe: They're going to fix the problem, come out with a fresh approach, new personality, if you like, different characters, a team, different way of playing, new leadership, team and younger players now taking control of the game. If that hasn't happened by the end of the summer, then I think the RFU have to look at whether the project's going anywhere, because that was their original position. And that was the only position that's ever been explained publicly and if there's no evidence against Fiji and Argentina of the potential that is evidently there in this England team actually coming together and a year out from the World Cup then England are going to be in a hole because they'll have they've lost five if it's six out of seven then you'd have to question whether that is there I think the talent is there but if they get to the end of the summer I think you have to almost invoke the Six Nations statement and go and ask those questions at the end of the summer Well it's going to be fascinating isn't it and you already get a sense on social media that look I don't think anyone really the most diehard England fan wasn't expecting him to win here and there's no disgrace to losing to the double back-to-back World Cup winning box at Ellis Park in this cauldron but I think people are really bored of the young team having a pop trying a new strategy thing but that's the sense that comes loud and kicking through social media and through friends and other people it's like can we just have a period of english rugby where it's not lurching towards another project restarting refreshing trying a whole different strategy and this is where razzy nailed it It chases trends.

45:23That really felt like such a perfect dart in the boards of Steve Borthwick, didn't it?

45:30Alex Lowe: If France had lost by this score to New Zealand today, or if Ireland had lost by this score to Australia today, you'd be thinking that is a hammering. It's a hammering. If you imagine, the World Cup final in 2019 was 20 points, and it was the largest margin of victory ever in a World Cup final, and it was like a destruction. and this is 24 with a worse Springbok line-up and a worse England line-up but man

45:54Charlie Morgan: with a try at the end this loud that would have really yeah really rubbed it in but look anyway so look there's going to be there's going to be a lot more discussion Alfie's going to let's say widen the debate on Monday's pod with a few of our characters who've been following the matches around the world because how are we doing actually in the northern north v south the great tussle for the hemispheres Wales won

46:16Alex Lowe: and Ireland won. South are winning so far. But Italy lost and France lost. Italy letting the side down. Italy and England letting the side down. And France. And France. We're going to claim

46:28Charlie Morgan: Japan whenever they win, I think. That's only fair. They like our project player, the North. But yeah, look, there's going to be loads of pods to come. Little reflections on, because we're leaving South Africa now. It's been a bit mad, hasn't it? It's a well-wind. We're flying home tomorrow. We're going to miss the football because it's about what time it's kicking off and it's kicking off while we're in the air but reflections leaving south africa alex joe burg well as a rugby country maybe we haven't seen a lot of joe

46:56Alex Lowe: burg yeah let's say yeah a rugby nation i think you know i think that as we've said the downside of this of this tournament is you you you're in for a week and you move on and the great beauty of coming here for a three test series would have been to probably get ingrained in the rugby culture It's actually hard to do that in Johannesburg because it's not a very safe city. You can't just go out and talk to people as easily as you would do elsewhere. So I have a regret, I guess, that we've been here for a week. I don't really feel I've got under the skin of South African rugby culture in the way that I would have liked to and the way that you would do if you were here for two or three weeks, in a way that all the New Zealand fans will do when they come here later in the year for the greatest rivalry series.

47:40Alex Lowe: but I leave it's always last time I was in this stadium 2009 Lions cool when the box all wore armbands with justice for backies on because he'd been banned after the second test but it's always it's amazing to be in this stadium one of the cathedrals of sports isn't it it's cool it's cool to see the box and how good they are and I'm not sure I'll ever forget Charlie the pre-match musical the music the music montage that we got to pay tribute to the best of British music so we've got to do two minutes on that because I don't know if it was shown on ITV but so they did please welcome

48:20Charlie Morgan: James Bond James Bond who did backflips and things like that but also it was James Bond with like Beefeaters rounded yeah four Beefeaters also breakdancers and then I wrote it all down next up the Beatles yeah and none of them looked like the Afrikaans dudes trying to be the Beatles. I think one of them was a woman as well. Then three was a non-ginger Ed Sheeran.

48:47Alex Lowe: All miming to the songs. Yeah. And then we had Elton John and I think Elton John needs to take out a light bulb thing now. Yeah, that's... Absolute horrendous impression of Elton John. Then the Spice Girls. Then the Spice Girls. Spice Girls came on and did quite a decent set. They were probably the best version of any of this. But also they were listening. I'm so glad you remembered this. I'm not sure they knew the words to wannabe. to be honest but then there was a flash mob because it looked like there were four security guards but oh they nicked one of their hats and then suddenly they're all dancing yeah and it sort of then morphed into a then it was Shakira Shakira saved it all

49:20Charlie Morgan: and then Wacka Wacka but Elton John I will never forget I will never forget Johannesburg Elton John that was quite something it was extraordinary I remember at Harlequins when I the days I used to be a ball boy there they would play like a sort of stereotypical song for all the teams so they'd put like Coronation Street on for sale and stuff like that but that was like the most dialed up version ever of it. I feel like, so our culture has just been absolutely brutally exposed and then the rugby after it, there you go. Crikey.

49:48Alex Lowe: They've done us in the charts and on the field. Yeah. Looking forward to getting back home, Charlie Everton next week. Yeah, back in Fiji.

49:55Charlie Morgan: Yeah, I think, I think they're going to be fun. Should we call it Fiji? We're going to Fiji next week. That would be nice. It's going to be weird, it's going to be quite, yeah, discombobulating going away from, because it's chilly, it's chilly, as we're recording now, chilly night and we're going back into sort of 30 degree heat and how that's going to work out in a rugby match in England. That's going to be a bit bizarre, but I think that's going to be the whole nature of this Nations Championship. I think there are going to be some strange results because of that as well. I think teams, potentially teams like Fiji, who get to stay in a base for a longer time and get to settle, they're going to be pretty ready for next week.

50:30Charlie Morgan: And I'm totally with you that it is as close to a must-win. And I'm fascinated by,

50:35Alex Lowe: I was just chatting to one of the South African journalists there and he's like, oh England, you'll beat Fiji. And I was like, do you remember when South Africa lost in Italy just before Razzie took over? South Africa shouldn't have lost that game. But when you're on a run of defeats and things aren't going for you and your confidence goes... And you're forcing things and you change the team a bit again because there's injuries. Like you put yourself in a position where you become really vulnerable psychologically. so how England manage they'll be battered after tonight's game they've got to fly home Sunday arrive Monday get their bodies right get their heads right to play Fiji who again like Fiji will play how Fiji play and if you've got cracks in your psyche then they'll they'll find them because that's how they play their rugby they'll just come at you and if you're worried or or risk averse or standoffish they'll pick you apart and so the psychological element for England this week to not allow this defeat and this performance to influence next week is for me is critical it's the biggest thing they've got to overcome this week because it's so easy on the back of five defeats and you're trying to introduce something and build confidence in it but you've been unable to do that properly here you've got to somehow go in fully believing next Saturday it's going to be tough yeah well look we'll leave Ellis Park we're going to drift off and tonight we've got our a man with a van waiting for us to take us back to Santon and yeah next pod you're going to get is from Alfie he's going to be hosting a bit of a round up of all the other games we've because we've been here focusing on South Africa England but for now it's goodnight from Charlie Morgan Alex Lowe and me Will Keller I didn't even say my name at the beginning people know who I am by now surely and that's it from us from Ellis Park but we'll be back we're going to be in England next week that's really weird but anyway see you soon everyone

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