England's 'alarming' defeat to brilliant Ireland

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0:47Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Saturday evening Twickenham England 21 Ireland 42 an extraordinary day of rugby the Wales-Scotland game has also just ended as well which we're going to be speaking about on Monday's pod we caught the end of that in the press room here the Six Nations delivers again I'm Alfie Reynolds alongside in the gantry Will Kelleher hello and Charlie Morgan hi pal gents I mean so we find ourselves second week in a row a defeat for England but it feels like it's so much more than just a defeat, Will? To me that was a

1:30Will: soul-destroying savagery really that was alarming it was humiliating, fans left before the end, it was for all the good things that Ireland did, senior players being jeered senior players were jeered, for all the good things Ireland did they were outstanding, they were emotionally at an amazing level It felt physically, they were tactically smart, intelligent. England were all of the opposite things. They were dumb. They lacked nous. They were just off it in every facet. And that is such a galling thing for England fans to leave Twickenham with, I think.

2:07Alfie: Charlie, I go back to something I said post-match last Saturday when we were at Murrayfield, which was, it wasn't so much about the defeat. Scotland were a good team we know could cause England problems. It isn't so much about losing to Ireland, even though they were in a slightly different position, played really, really well today. As I just said, the manner of the England performances over the last two weeks maybe leaves all of us kind of scratching our heads a little bit, doesn't it? Based upon this team that were on a 12-game winning run and now we're sat here thinking, right, what's going on here?

2:36Alfie: How good are they?

2:37Charlie: Totally fair. It's amounted to a regression session. 12 test wins in a row and then two performances where there have been parallels. The other teams that have played them have been more urgent. They've been more clinical in the 22. There were even sort of worse things happening today. A line-out that just completely capitulated. Those are pillars. And again, they're losing the kick and battle just so markedly. Those are pillars that England have lent their game on. And they have been obliterated. And it leaves you sort of really, really searching for answers to horrible questions. Because Will called this really early in the game.

3:13Charlie: It reminded us all of the 2023 Six Nations when there was an excuse for England to look like a disparate team full of moving parts that weren't working properly because Borthwick had been in the job six weeks and he was taking over from Andy Jones at short notice. There aren't those excuses anymore. This is a side that has been together for a while and it looks alarmingly bad.

3:38Will: so the one it particularly reminded me of was 53 10 which was worse let's let's put that out there to start with because i don't think that scoreline would have flattered no absolutely not but i think the way that match ended the france match we're talking about 53 10 23 six nations with penneau like laughing as he was running past poor old alex dombrun who had the ball chipped over his head that you could see coming from a mile off and the french going mad the game didn't quite end in that sort of like celebratory fashion for the away team today but it was gone after half an hour absolutely gone and last week when England was 17 nilled down there were thoughts in your head being like look this is Scotland who have bottled big leads recently this is England who were 12 nilled down to the All Blacks here and won well won by one going away in November but clearly they didn't come back here so sitting up in in the press box here when England were 22 nilled down obviously more points you go there's no way and it's so alarming because i think one of the characteristics of this england team under both or maybe longer than that is that they've needed to be punched in the gut to respond and they were punched in the gut last week a galling like rug pulling defeat and they just had nothing they were much worse today which leaves you so many questions and like we'll get on to lots of them but i think there's a number of these england players now who it probably won't happen during the six nations because they can't overhaul the squad too much but are going to seriously struggle to make the world cup team they're going to struggle to go like england's next fixtures are rome paris joburg and there's a number of players on that field today where you think i'm afraid they can't play they cannot play against the

5:19Alfie: spring box do you think we're already at that point because i suppose yeah the flip side would be two really bad weekends two really bad performances two really bad results which has come out of nowhere let's be honest before that this was a team that were on a 12 game winning run so despite that you think that these performances and results have been so alarming that people's careers are on the line and Steve Borswick basically signaled that by taking off

5:43Will: Luke Cowendick and Freddie Stewart after about half an hour didn't he and he said he brought on Marcus Smith because he thought he's the sort of guy that could attack well when they needed to score lots of points fine but the Cowendickie one was just he was having the biggest mare you've ever seen like couldn't throw into the line out but the issue there now it's amazing after two weeks you go thought lots of these things we thought we had answers to and now there's just like glaring questions we get england have got a massive problem at hooker now they've got one of their greats jamie george who's battling on who's still a class player can throw well into the lineup but is definitely not the dynamic man that we used to see 10 years ago i mean he's in his mid-30s now.

6:24Will: Count Dickie's had a day here where you think that's going to be really difficult for him to come back from.

6:28Charlie: Theodan hasn't taken his chances when he's been given the shot. You're looking further down the pecking order at Caputu Piloto, Nathan Djiboulou, Jamie Blumeyer. That's one glaring issue. I would say it just looked like an unbalanced side. I felt for Oli Lawrence coming in for his first game in a month. He looked leggy. But everybody did. You know, it's the energy and the accuracy, the deficiencies there that are so alarming. That's the worst I think I've ever seen George Ford play. And he has been an exceptional player for England. I believe he still has a part to play for England, if it's only now in sort of bringing through, I guess, guys like Finn Smith.

7:11Charlie: And Mark Smith did bring spark. I still, I don't want to write off.

7:14Will: The game is gone though, really.

7:15Charlie: I think it's dangerous to write off George Ford. And I don't think he'll be somebody that is culled totally after that performance. But just how inaccurate he was really, really encapsulated how the side went.

7:30Alfie: So easy question for me to ask. And I've always got the luxury in this situation that I can ask it. And it's a difficult one for you guys to answer. But why have England been so bad then?

7:39Will: Well, I think that's... I'm going to bottle answering that properly by saying that is the fundamental question. because it is utterly baffling how they can be quite slick and well put together through November and the year that we were giving them rightful praise for, where they lost once in 2025. And look, the Wales game, I don't know, pulls the wool over the eyes a bit because you go, Wales have actually been good today, but they have been dreadful. And actually Ellis Gens, to his credit afterwards, has said I think we believed our own hype after that game, where others are trying to stay a bit more level.

8:13Will: but you just go I what I can't get my head around is how they can collapse so unbelievably and

8:21Alfie: totally in a week and to build on that I agree so this I thought the parallels today to Scotland were unbelievable discipline was a problem Stewart and Pollocker in the sim bin attack just looked like it didn't have the answer you know they had more entries into the 22 than Ireland did in theirs 12-9 I know they scored three tries but you're looking at the attack and it never feels like it's that dynamic or punching holes.

8:48Charlie: They were punching themselves out and sort of losing cohesion Do you remember 2018? It felt like 2018 when they were leggy and when they were on the edge of an overhaul of the squad that got them to the next World Cup actually a year before the World Cup so the parallels are certainly there. I think due credit deserves to be given to the two opponents that they have had for taking away strengths because if we talk about how slick england were in the autumn their kicking game worked really well today it went to pieces and with the changes they made we were looking down going hang on they're going to have they're going to be in long periods of this game with george ford marcus smith and henry arundel in the backfield tommy freeman's going to be there as well but that's a lot for ireland to go at and ireland the second half was just a master class in kick pressure from from ireland i would say some of the the defense was some of the yeah we've talked about those deficiencies scrum went okay again i guess line out capitulated the kicking game they were second best their attacking game seemed to run out of ideas and maybe like punch again the defense was maybe the worst of the lot some of those some of those areas they were that was what reminded me of 2023 because that they were being they were being cut through the middle um first phase first phase off really really basic stuff um like scotland did ireland fancied moving England around the pitch laterally from coast to coast and they did that I thought a real snapshot of actually the whole game was Ireland's first try from a scrum on around the 10 meter line just further back for Ireland and they moved the ball wide and got two wingers in the opposite 15 meter line I'm not sure England have got the sort of gumption to do that themselves at the minute I don't think they've got the confidence or the sort of confidence to go away from the kick pressure template to do that and that's where we've been at we've been at two two smart sides totally outmanoeuvring England in two weeks and I think on both sides of the ball

10:39Will: I feel like there's there's now quite a lot of evidence of incredibly poor skill execution whether it's the catch pass stuff which they're just not very good at and that leads to this profligate attack that keeps repeating every week like even when they were winning they were taking six or seven entries to score a try and then sometimes the floodgates would not literally the floodgates opening but you know what I mean they would they would bang their heads against the door for about six or seven attempts and then score on the eighth one and then it'd be like okay we finally cracked it a bit but now they're just not scoring and their skills are just poor some of the passing today was dross it was awful and then the other side of it the defense I don't know I'm not as technically gifted with the analytics as Charlie is but like some to me looked like incredibly basic very Irish plays where you throw three guys at the line one little pop pass and England are done immediately like the one where Doris goes through he just doesn't pass the ball Ellis Gens I think must have thought that he had passed the ball because he doesn't even attempt to tackle him but there was a really really brutal slow-mo replay that got replayed a lot on the big screen Gens just gives him a little shoulder bump as if to be like just in case check you there and then ollie lawrence gets cut i mean look for all the possible criticisms of tommy freeman playing at 13 and then having to move him back to wing he is a far better defender than ollie lawrence at 13 i think that was demonstrated writ large today and and that's why you're looking at it kind of going like right so they can't defend they've got no line out they can't score any tries they can't attack coherently they're being physically dominated and where on earth do they go where

12:17Charlie: Ireland connected parts of their game together really well. England couldn't because they kept falling apart. Those parts of the game just kept falling apart. And that's where it becomes even more difficult for two weeks' time in Italy, who are going really well and will really fancy it. Because what do you fix first? What's the priority? Eddie Jones had the sort of, if you try and catch five rabbits, you'll catch none. You've got to prioritise something. They've got to fix the line out. They've got to make sure that their kicking game is suiting what they want to do off the back of that. And then there are glaring, glaring defensive errors for them to fix too.

12:53Alfie: But I still come back to the question of how do we find ourselves here three rounds into the Six Nations? And I'm not disagreeing with anything you guys have said. And there'll be some people that say, oh, well, you see, England just weren't as good as everyone was saying they were on that run. And there might be a part of that. I get that. But they weren't this bad. You say about those skills, Will, their skills had improved. That was part of the reason. Their skills are good in Argentina. That's what I mean. They executed a clutch play at the end of both of those test matches. It's so baffling that we now find ourselves here.

13:22Alfie: And again, people say, oh, everyone was saying England were going to win the title and do the Grand Slam. Let me just say, it was totally fair for England to be in the title conversation coming into this Six Nations. But this is alarming, as you said. And look, actually, the game these days is about tactics.

13:39Will: And it is about game plans. It is about kick pressure. It is about all those things. But I do think that there's too much evidence with England over the decades for there not to be some fundamental, massive mental hurdle that they cannot jump over. Like Steve Borthwick, I will not criticise him at all for saying, at the start of this tournament when he picked his squad, I want our fans to be flooding over the Channel to France with a Grand Slam on the line. He didn't say the Grand Slam bit. We sort of put that in our pieces because that's what he meant. but he was saying to achieve something that we should be there to achieve.

14:15Will: And to me, I read that as a direct public challenge to his players to own the expectation that was upon them after they had won, at that point, 11 games in a row. It was a fair call for him to make, and I wonder now whether he's looking at that and going, I'm glad I did that in a way, because I've now found out that some of my players can't handle that pressure. And I find that staggering, really. And it's been a fundamental issue with England for a long time, hasn't it? Like, this is now another Six Nations gone in the bin. Next year, it'll be 11 years. 11 years since they've won a Grand Slam.

14:50Will: And in that period, they've won two other titles. One was the year after in 17 and 20 was on bonus points in COVID. So, like, this is consistent under delivery for decades. And I can't understand it. They've got the tools. They've got a more aligned system with the clubs. They've got talented players. they've got a very good intelligent backroom staff but they some they just find ways of messing it up every time and i said it on our i was sort of joking i said it yeah england always let you

15:23Alfie: down if i can play devil's advocate which is me giving england probably come on well it's probably i'm probably giving england too much leeway here but i'm trying to think if england say first of all i called it the italy game is a really tough game at the start of six nations that's a tough if England go and win in Italy if they somehow go and win in France is it as doom and gloom and I feel like the second half of that sentence is a bit like we'd have said the same about Wales beating Scotland though

15:51Charlie: all along I thought the Six Nations the France game was something that I thought Borthwick would have circled and gone I thought he'd have such a smart plan for that that he would have targeted it from a while out but now there's just so much to fix If you think about how damaging a lost ruck can be in rugby, because it's either a penalty or you're coughing up possession in a tricky part of the field with your defence compromise. England lost eight of them today. Eight. Ireland lost one. That differential is huge. And it's really important to keep giving Ireland credit for that because it was almost like the big no tomorrow speech.

16:30Charlie: I could imagine him giving that speech to the team he picked given he brought so many players in. Josh van der Fleer moved obviously a bit of a gamble with Ty Bern at six and no lock on the bench but that all came off.

16:43Will: Gibson Park coming back was unbelievable.

16:45Charlie: He was superb and it was like big boy stuff from Ireland against really meek, insipid, inaccurate stuff from England.

16:52Alfie: Get on to Ireland in just a moment because they were excellent. We've obviously got a bit of an England focus here to start with. I wanted to mention the jeers for George Ford. That didn't sit right with me I didn't think. and the counter-argument might be oh well it was mainly Ireland fans and there are a lot of Ireland fans here today. Ireland's cool was allowed beforehand. I didn't think it was personally. Did you not?

17:12Will: It was hard to tell. I thought there were England fans involved there. We were on the opposite side of the stadium from you and to us it was on our left. There was quite heavy jeering and that was the corner that he kept missing.

17:23Alfie: But did you think it was neutral slash England fans doing it? Yeah, I'm sure it was obviously a lot of Ireland fans. I thought there were probably quite a few England fans doing that And I just felt like for a guy that, yes, he wasn't having his best performance, but has been so good for England for so long, been such a servant. And I get part of it's pantomime stuff, right? Everyone had probably been on the beers and maybe you can read too much into it. But I just thought, come on.

17:48Charlie: He's a lightning rod for criticism of England generally. And I think we've felt that in the wash up of the Scotland game, I think, because he has to take on a lot of that kicking plan himself. it was the same same for ben young's in the eddie at the back end of the eddie jones era wasn't it he was he became sort of his popularity suffered because of what he was doing for the team i think the same is true and being asked to do for the team um and i think the same is true of george ford his stock though was very i thought it was very high coming into this autumn and quite rightly because time high yeah because he's because he's so important pastorally to this squad you know We don't see a lot of that, but he drives the week.

18:30Charlie: That's what we hear all the time. He drives the week, he drives the week. But as soon as he came in, copped a lot of criticism after the Scotland game, and then that's compounded it. And yeah, as I say, I haven't seen him play that poorly before, I don't think. He looked, I thought he would be immune from when sides sort of almost succumb to anxiety and look kind of flustered. He is often immune to that, and I don't think he was today. It was a really, really difficult day for everybody.

18:54Will: Actually, I'm trying to remember exactly what game it was. I think it might have been 2016 summer game against Wales, that random one they played before they won a tour. That was off the tee, wasn't it? And he missed a lot of kicks to goal, maybe seven I think it was, and he was getting booed by England fans that day. And I remember Eddie Jones coming in afterwards was livid about it, being like, you're not proper England fans, basically. And I wonder whether, if it was, in inverted commas, England supporters, is there something about Twickenham being a big match hunting environment where a lot of people here are massive England rugby fans and have paid loads of money to be here but quite a lot of people are not and are just here for a laugh Yeah, it's a day out So if they see someone having a mare it's a bit like a day at Edgbaston or something and you see someone drop a catch and the next time the ball goes to them it's the hooooy even if it's your own team but I wonder whether that's another galling element of this where when England play badly, they don't have a guarantee of loyal support.

19:56Charlie: Because they don't have a guarantee of entertainment?

19:58Will: No. And I feel the same, maybe it's a Southwest London thing, I don't know, but I feel the same with Harlequins sometimes, where the crowd there sometimes are like, if you're going to annoy me today, I'm not interested.

20:08Charlie: I think that with a kick-heavy template that England have, there is a smaller margin for error on the gap between sort of keep bringing your supporters with you. if you're not winning. Say if Scotland chuck the ball around, score 4-0 and come up short in a game that they're underdogs in, you're sort of back to level, right? If England were 11-point favourites today and they lost the kicking battle, lost the game comfortably and that compounds and compounds and compounds and looks worse and worse and worse.

20:42Alfie: 11-point favourites, by the way.

20:43Will: Oh, my Lord. A lot of people making a lot of cash. A lot of people making a lot of cash. Still, wow. and the one thing I regret I was too hasty when you asked us our question on Thursday of who's under or who would it be worse for to lose this game and I said 100 % Ireland straight away without really thinking I really regret that because that was a silly thing to say and not just because England lost but actually when you kind of look at the context of it all you go an England defeat here is alarming but but I think it's made it has been made worse today by the manner of it like it It was, there are defeats and then there are defeats.

21:15Will: Like, if it was a one-pointer or a width of a post job, very 2024 defeat, then you would have gone, yeah, okay, not good, but that was just a hammering. It was a hammering.

21:25Alfie: Can I ask you both about the kind of England reaction to it? The Steve Borthwick reaction. I'm glad what you've just said, Will, about apparently what Ellis Genge has said.

21:36Will: Yeah, he told the BBC, we believe their own hype, apologise for the fans type stuff, which I come to expect with Genge.

21:42Alfie: he's not going to sugarcoat it is he? No and maybe I'm being unfair on Borthwick here but last week I felt fair enough it's your first defeat in ages really bad performance but let's see I was kind of underwhelmed I think by Steve Borthwick's reaction today today yeah

22:00Charlie: can we take it further back in the week and players like Tom Curry not really being able to explain it or the Scotland game that is and putting that down to sort of lack of physicality that just felt alarming to me at the time because I don't know I don't know I was kind of pushing quite a lot in the week saying you know is that not really a personal affront to be told in a meeting that you're not physical enough or is there more to it than that do you not you know do you feel leggy for and we would never get that information out of them but that is now twice in a week where they have looked just markedly less energetic than the team they are playing and you're right i i maybe maybe maybe maybe that was steve borthwick's way of of shielding players

22:46Alfie: today well i think look that's always going to be part of it and we can't force someone to have a different personality to what they have but i think if you compare steve borthwick's reaction today for example to andy farrell's on the opening night of the six nations yeah which was that was totally unacceptable lack of intent and fight yeah i didn't expect it because it's not obviously bought it but i was hoping for a bit more of that today and i think you can still do that whilst backing your players weirdly yeah if you do it in the right way because i think we've all come away from that fans will be coming away from that saying england standards have dropped off a cliff from where they were in november that is not good enough well some of them will probably watch the end of the game at home so people were leaving weren't they yeah with 10

23:28Will: minutes to go may as well i've got in the pub you need a result early kickoff watch the wales game but like i guess i guess if you're both of it you're saying i've made a big thing here about doing the i'm super consistent you guys can polarize it either way but i'm just going to stay level i'm not going to get high when we beat the all blacks and i'm not going to get low when we lose two in a row so in his mind he's probably just staying true to that and just being like i can't now go right sod the lot of it and skengiel be a good barometer so i think that carries weight

23:56Charlie: from him to say you're right will to say that to say that um they believe their own hype and maybe that sense of saying level just works better when you're on a winning run and actually you need a bit of a need a bit of a spur i would just yeah it just it didn't i don't know we're not going to get everything in a media in a media huddle but just what we were getting last week of yeah we're not actually really sure how it happened and scotland shocked us but we'll be better next week

24:23Will: you know clearly didn't happen so the one guy that did challenge them publicly was kevin sinfield yeah so on Thursday he was like basically you need to prove that you've got it in you to bounce back and they bloody didn't like I mean I wouldn't like to annoy Kevin Sinford too often and he was the one that actually was challenging them on that front and they've properly under delivered on that the second bit you talked about being leggy a couple of times and I totally agree Charlie and I think there's a sacred cow there Maro Otoji is not fit it's so obvious taken off on 50 again We all wrote lovely glowing pieces about him this week because it was 100th cap.

25:00Will: I mean, he's been a staggeringly good player for England. And we spoke about him on Thursday and probably the most consistent 100 caps we've ever seen in an England shirt. All of that is still true. But the man is not fit. He was brought off on 54 minutes today, 56 last week. He had never been substituted in the Six Nations tactically, i.e. not for an injury, before. Ever. And it's two in two weeks. And he's struggling, obviously.

25:25Charlie: A lot was made of the third Six Nations test on the bounce. I was actually making so many points about that on Monday, forgetting that they do that every autumn. But clearly Scotland took a lot out of England. And when Ben O 'erl went over for their last try at Murrayfield, that was a snapshot of a guy that just looked spent. He was quiet today. It was the quietest test he's had in a long time.

25:50Will: Weirdly, I felt the same. And the stats told me that he made 20 carries again. but yeah he was clearly not as dominant anywhere I mean none of them were to be honest the ratings I had to do I'm afraid are pretty I hate doing the ratings because they're a bit of a nonsense but I don't think anyone got above a five which I thought was fair I thought Andy Farrell was

26:10Alfie: actually really interesting at the end of Ireland's press conference when he spoke about them saying they were they felt leggy in the France game and that actually it was a mentality thing it was almost like a mental thing that they kind of had to address and feeling sorry for yourself almost and be oh i'm tired am i yeah been a lot of year lions tour yeah exactly so i wonder whether that's what england need to do as well speaking of ireland quick break here and then we'll get on to them could ai help you do more of what you love workday is the next gen erp powered by ai that actually knows your business we help you handle the have to do's so you can focus on the can't wait to do's.

26:50Alfie: It's a new work day. You know what's wild? Most people are still overpaying for car insurance just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry. Jerry's the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurers in minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over$1 ,300 a year. Before you renew your car insurance policy, do yourself a favor. Download the Jerry app or head to jerry.ai.acast. So as I've said already, lads, our focus is always going to be England heavy. We'll have more reaction with Barnsley and Elgin on Monday for the pod.

27:29Alfie: We'll get both of their views on what we've seen this weekend and where England go from here. From an Ireland point of view, lads, I mean, they're a team that we're speaking about ahead of the game of being in a bit of a rebuild. An ageing team. And I still think some of that stuff is still true. But what a performance.

27:48Charlie: what they had was a core of experienced players who were crucially used to winning here used to being England that's now 5-6 that they've won maybe even more

27:57Will: 2024 is the only recent England win isn't it?

28:00Charlie: I think it's 5-6 and they looked totally used to they looked fired up by I think this is probably fair to say they looked fired up by the hype England had been getting as well and I'm almost certain that they would have been talking internally about you know these guys are getting a lot of praise we are we are have shown ourselves to be better than these guys they were but they were also crucially smart and yeah as i say they were as incisive as england were wasteful in in their in the opposition 22 they absolutely had the wood on england in the in the kicking game on the gain line they were they defended so well in their in their own 22 as andy farrell sort of brought up at the end of the game their selections work but But Byrne complimenting McCarthy and Ryan really worked for them.

28:45Charlie: McCloskey's been one of the players of the championship. He just gives them so much. Going back to that try, it was his pass out to Balakun after he'd faded behind the back of Ring Rose. Again, just really smart. And I love the way they got both wings in the 15s. They lost James Lowe early. They lost Jack Conan before kickoff. And they weren't put off their stride by it. They just kept coming and coming and coming. Yeah, the scrum was a little bit. They were maybe unlucky on a couple of scrum calls. How about Jamison Gibson Park? Just remembering now off the top of my head, Jamison Gibson Park's disallowed try was 50-50, right?

29:20Charlie: It could have been worse. And I actually think that they could have been more clinical during Freddie Stewart's yellow. England actually defended all right during that period. But 40 points quicker than in no way flattered them. They were that good.

29:35Will: Two enduring things I think that I love. one is the six nations generally because it's mental isn't it and we love it for it like if it was predictable and it went how we expected the whole time then we would we'll be out of jobs because it'd be far too easy to tell everyone what was going to happen so the fact that Ireland have come here and just blasted England the fact that Wales nearly beat Scotland like who knows what will happen in France Italy tomorrow surely not but it's great isn't it and then the second point to that which is related I think is that I love the fact that in rugby there is still a place for emotion like you can have all and like as Charlie has outlined this is a tactically smart performance from Scotland and then Ireland however it does feel that Andy Farrell's pressed all the right buttons with him this week all the all the sort of keyboard warrior stuff that he's talked about all the stuff with Crowley and Prendergast all the what he they would regard as disrespect for their top players from people like me who say they're tired and look at their stats they all look leggy she and burn all these guys are dropping off and then they use it all week fuel fuel fuel fuel and then the first thing farrell came in and said after us was that we put a lot of respect back and given irish rugby a great day kind of thing and you kind of go i sort of love that you can bottle it all up all week and come out swinging and angry and on the flip side that's why again it's more alarming that England didn't do that themselves having lost last week do you think it

31:06Alfie: as well part of that might have been for a number of those players which Farrell couldn't have press these buttons because he was the Lions coach that didn't pick them but I wonder yeah all right Caelan Dorris wasn't on on the Lions tour but how many of those Ireland players looked at their English counterpart that took their spot in the test team or on the tour and thought I've got a point to prove here because so many of them I thought it looked like they were doing that or

31:25Will: or I suppose generally he might have been pressing their buttons being like in loads of positions lads i had a choice between an englishman and irishman i went irish because i back you like he again he wouldn't have said that last summer would he when he had his uh red jersey on but with the green one back on easy thing to do this week wouldn't it be i don't know if he did do that but

31:45Alfie: yeah it's interesting if i was him one moment as well which i think really summed up that game was mccloskey who you're right to mention was outstanding there's some great memes by the

31:53Will: way that have been going around the internet already of him like sunny but like superimposed onto Sonny Bill and stuff like that. It's just become like an unbelievable great.

32:00Alfie: People get to work quickly on that sort of stuff, don't they? But the thing that summed up the game, I thought, in many ways, was the Marcus Smith intercept and then McCloskey chasing him down. How has he been able to win that foot race?

32:13Charlie: I mean, that's a definite try for Ireland. That's good work from Marcus Smith. But, yeah, you're right. You're right. His break for the Balakoon try, brushed off Lawrence, I think. There was a moment in the second half before the Doris sort of, before the Doris dummy in the lead up to Pollock's yellow card, England's backfield was so compromised that it looked like Joe Hayes was going to come forward and take a high ball. England, again, got themselves so manipulated and so twisted and so uncertain in their positioning that they were really pulled around the park today.

32:47Alfie: So question on both teams then for you lads to finish off. Heading into the rest week, England lost 2-1-1, Ireland won two lost one it was always going to be a case of these were two teams that you felt it was a fork in the road of where they head for the rest of this championship maybe Ireland first of all and then England where does this leave them as they head into that fallow week

33:11Will: well Ireland will be bouncing they'll lick the wounds a bit James Lowe looks like he's got an injury so they'll have to deal with that but their order is Scotland on the final day isn't it

33:21Charlie: which they won't be scared of

33:22Will: no absolutely not 11 out of 11

33:25Charlie: since Gregor Townsend

33:26Will: and Wales before that and look, Wales showed a lot today and we'll do more on it on Monday's pod I'm sure but they're not going to lose that game so therefore they end the tournament with four wins from five, only losing to the best team in the tournament and you go not bad for a team in decline and then England is it salvageable? is it a win in Rome They can win the final two games. It's not beyond the realms. It just feels like the way they've lost here and in Edinburgh, you can't see many routes to victory in Paris. And a lot can change in three weeks, of course. They've never lost to Italy.

34:09Will: We must keep saying that. They've never lost to Italy. The games in Rome particularly have been close, though, recently.

34:15Charlie: They're going to get a similar challenge. Italy are going to look at things that Scotland and Ireland did well, and they are perfectly equipped to replicate them. except they've got a stronger scrum because they've got a good contestable kicking game. They've got a back line that can keep you square with Menoncello hitting really powerful lines, north-south lines, but they can also move the ball wide. We're obviously recording this before France host Italy, but Capuazzo's back for them, who's a sort of wild card in all of this and is a player who can stretch England laterally. It's going to be...

34:47Charlie: It's a really, really tough game.

34:49Will: Do you think Italy go into it as favourites? No. No, no. They won't, they won't, because there's so much history stacked in England's favour there. And it doesn't matter on a day, does it? But no, I don't think so. Can I end it with one thought? And this is, I think this is, I'm talking as a journalist here who doesn't care who wins and loses, and it doesn't matter. But I think one of the most disappointing things about this is that, I think, and England fans listening to this probably relate to this, it's just, can they just have one tournament where it's not carnage? like when you were talking they had a sort of pretty breezy tournament where there was kind of no issues and they either win it or get really close and play really well throughout it they put five performances together and everyone goes decent when you were talking then about island

35:35Charlie: island are gonna probably it would be it would be a surprise now and a setback for island if they don't get four wins it seems like that's their baseline and has been for a while which shows sort of how well they've been coached what a special group of players player they've got what players they've got. It now feels like last year, four wins out of five was the sort of anomaly for England, which is remarkable when you think about where they were sort of pre, well, post-2017. They'd been relatively consistent in the Six Nations before that, and since then it's been horrible.

36:07Will: But don't you think, like, that was a four from five last year, but maybe this is just because we're in it week to week with them, but it always feels like they're scrabbling and they're reacting and their kind of right response to that because that was a huge setback. It doesn't ever seem to be serene in the Six Nations.

36:26Alfie: Yeah, maybe in the Six Nations. It's funny though because I haven't felt like that about England for a while. Even previously when they weren't quite getting results, they were in proper good contests against sides. Whereas maybe the thing that surprises me the most about the last two weeks is how much they haven't been in the contest. It hasn't been a game that's gone down to the wire and maybe a couple of decisions or a little bit of execution hasn't gone their way. It's been utter and total dominance from the opposition.

36:52Will: Yeah. And the other thing, I think we were saying this this time last year when England finally got the monkey off the back and they beat France. It's like we need to keep reminding everyone we do not revel in England losing at all. It is much better for our jobs and more people listen to podcasts and more people read the newspaper when England are winning. That is statistically true. and I think we're all just sitting here as people who cover England all the time being like, man they are such a frustrating team to cover and Scottish reporters and all that will say hold our beers like Argentina, Italy, France there's loads but you just think a kingdom for consistency in England like a kingdom for my horse, come on

37:32Alfie: Let's leave it there, send us an email I know loads of you are going to have thoughts on that England performance and that Ireland performance as well The email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Probably not the best point to plug this, but I'm going to nonetheless 9th of March.

37:47Charlie: We're still going to be there. We're still going to be there.

37:49Alfie: The Ruck Live ahead of the final weekend of the Six Nations. Going to be a big preview of that England-France game, which looks a hell of a lot different now. But Courtney Laws and Serge Bettson are going to join us. It's going to be a brilliant evening, even though things are maybe not panning out in the way that we perhaps thought they would. Head to thetimes.com forward slash events and you can get your ticket there. Will, Charlie? Thanks. That was that therapeutic in any way? We kind of worked through things.

38:13Will: I feel guilty about this now, but I'm moving house next week, so I've got a few days off, and I feel sorry for everyone else, so I'm really sorry for departing, but I won't be around for a little bit. I'll be back with a vengeance in Italy week.

38:25Alfie: There we go. Perfect. All right, good stuff. Charlie, you still got to write, or are you done? I'm done. I'll be writing tomorrow,

38:32Charlie: but hopefully something will be online by the time this goes out. If Charlie can make sense of it,

38:36Alfie: we're all going to be fine. Yeah, exactly. I'm not sure I have yet, but there we go. That's not why I'm here. Thank you very much for listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Craving the coffee flavour you love, but without the caffeine? Cachava's got you covered with their newest coffee flavour. This all-in-one nutrition shake delivers bold, authentic flavour, crafted from premium decaffeinated Brazilian beans. With 25g of protein, 6g of fibre, greens and so much more. Treat yourself to the flavor and nutrition your body craves. Go to cachava.com and use code SMOOVY.

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