England's 'bomb squad' downs Wallabies

0:00Alfie: Hi, I'm Danny Fortson from the Times Tech Podcast, which is currently sponsored by ServiceNow. ServiceNow describes itself as an AI control tower for business reinvention, connecting systems, data, and AI so workflows more smoothly across organizations. The platform integrates with different clouds, models, and data sources, bringing them together in one place. To learn more about how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

0:31Alfie: Today's episode of The Ruck is sponsored by Allianz. For more than 13 years, Allianz have been a committed supporter of rugby, championing the sport from grassroots clubs to the global stage. That's why they entered a historic partnership to sponsor the home of England rugby, Allianz Stadium, helping lay stronger foundations for generations to come. We're thrilled to have them as part of the rugby community. Now, let's get into the show.

1:12Alfie: welcome back to the ruck the journalist's rugby podcast from the times and the sunday times and england's november is up and running it wasn't particularly pretty but they got the job done against australia here at twickenham alfie here and alongside me will kelleher alex low the gloom of Twickenham once more. Get used to these. It's good to be back post-match at Twickenham after a match. How are we doing? Yeah, the smell of stale Guinness sprinklers in front of us. We've had Joe Marler actually going around the field. He must have been doing some corporate hospitality today and trying not to tell people if he won.

1:45How many times do you reckon he's been asked today? We're not going to make this too much of a traitorous crossover but we're all loving it, aren't we? I think it's been great. He's been brilliant. He's like the perfect guy to be on it because as we've dealt with him over the years he's incredibly hard to read and loves making people feel awkward. We hosted a kid's Halloween party on Friday night, my youngest and all his mates, and they were all asking me, what's Joe Marler like? Is he like that in real life? Yes. I was like, yes, that's exactly what he's like. Really hard to read, but pretty astute guy.

2:15And yeah, I think he's been great to watch. Great film. I think if we wanted to get him on the ruck at another point, I think it's now going to be a struggle.

2:22Alfie: His fee has gone up a lot, hasn't it, in the last month? Yeah. 100%. 14 million people are watching traitors every episode. Yeah, yeah. That's almost as many people listening to this, Alfie. So to bring it back onto the rugby, I was disappointed. Yeah, almost. Almost. You nearly missed my joke there. I did almost miss it entirely. I was thinking so much of I need to steer this conversation back onto the match that we've watched. I missed it entirely. Look, I was hoping, I was actually slightly disappointed that it wasn't a comeback victory for England today. Because then I might have concocted some sort of contrived question about what's the better comeback, what you've achieved here or what Joe Marlon might be able to pull off on Thursday with the Faithfuls and the Traitors.

2:58Alfie: Anyway, England 25, Australia 7. Your thoughts on that result, on that performance for England as they have got their November campaign up and running? I think for us sitting in the stands during the game, it felt pretty tedious at times. It was incredibly flat here at Twickenham, which is strange. It was almost like, well, look, you can't criticise fans for coming here, spending a lot of money and then going, go on, then entertain me. And they really weren't entertained for a long time. And they offered kind of no real mega support, I suppose. So that was odd. It felt a sort of clunky, bitty, clumsy game.

3:37But it probably is going to be one of those matches that kind of grows on everyone the further away you get from it. Like, we're now a couple of hours on from it finishing. And already I think, well, do you know what? Like, if it wasn't for the Intercept, it would have been a nilling. it might have been a game that slipped away from them another year they did finish it off the bench did add some impact the defense did look punchy but they need to stop being this profligate in attack Alex I think maybe the thing that we're sitting up in the stands thinking was the pitch by Steve Borswick for this game was fast pace we're going to be the team that runs a lot and look maybe the conditions were different to what they expected but the reality of the game was incredibly different from how it was sold to us as the vision of what would happen yeah I mean Alfie's question, it's a good result and a satisfactory day.

4:20I'd say no more than that. There are elements, like you say, Will, that were impressive. Their defence is definitely taking strides forward. One of the other pitches that Borthwick made was they needed to finish the game well because they hadn't been doing that. Like this time last year, they were in the middle of this run of losing tight matches against the best teams. And they absolutely did, you know, they dominated the last 20. the bench sending on five British and Irish Lions forwards all at once was a flex and it worked because the power and the ferocity that Tonkari brought in defence, the energy that Henry Pollock brought to the place, he sort of illuminated the stadium not just because he's got hair the same colour as the floodlights here but just the energy that they brought, so that did really work.

5:09Where I think your point about the game growing on you is true, is because we came in with a perception of what we thought England were going to try and achieve an attack. And they tried it and they couldn't execute it. Manny Fawaboso, their most dangerous attacking runner, got the ball three times maybe? Should have maybe got it at fourth, but Freeman didn't pass. And they made too many mistakes and they're too profligate. We sat up there doing the live blog and I felt like I should have a line just saved on my laptop to copy and paste about England and not being able to convert pressure into points, not being able to turn 22 entries into tries.

5:46At one point, it was 11 entries for one try from the 22, if that makes sense. Yeah, so that was a negative for me. At one point, I was thinking, when does Lee Blackett actually start as England attack coach? Because it's not there. But the one thing you would always want to look for in teams, and a George Ford team will do it probably better than any, is to recognise when it's not working and to find another way. Now, we always knew England were going to go to the air a lot in this game. I think one of the reasons they wanted Tommy Freeman at outside centre was because that would give them three big aerial threats plus three dedicated wingers.

6:26Now, I think Freeman played a bit too much like a wing at outside centre. But we knew they were going to go to the air a lot. And Tom Roebuck was magnificent in the air. and they scored their first two tries from his leaps into the sky and claiming a couple of balls, tapping one back, claiming another one. They were outstanding pieces of skill. And then the rain came. And so George Ford, being George Ford, just decided it was a day to be pragmatic and to go aerial. And that's not huge fun to watch sometimes. It did feel a bit flat, but match one of a four-match series, ultimately they had to win the game and they found a way to do that.

7:03Alfie: See, it's really interesting because I'm definitely more on the positive side of, in particular, this result, but even the performance to a degree, because I massively feel like that is a game 12 months ago, England possibly lose. They're 10-0 up. It should then become 17-0. Well, they did lose it. Well, exactly. 10 months ago. Well, yeah, sure. They lost to Australia, but even just that type of game, I mean, because they're 10-0 up. They should go 17-0 up. Ben Ells held up over the line. They then throw an intercept, and out of nowhere, really, Australia are in the game. It's a three-point game and the first 20 minutes of the second half were relatively even.

7:36Alfie: And England had the bench, they had the experience, they found a way to score three tries in the final 20 minutes and the game is done. And I felt like it was a real sign of the progression England have made in the last 12 months. Where I think I'd give them credit is that we've watched a lot of England teams over the decades get into a sticky situation and then go, anyone got an idea? What do we do now? And like Eddie Jones' teams were very good at playing on top of opposition. They'd get ahead and they'd be very powerful. And if they were ahead, they were very good at keeping a team at arm's length.

8:08But if they hit the fan or they had to chase, they didn't really know what to do. And we always then connected that with the kind of hierarchical coaching thing where the players aren't really giving their heads. It feels different here. And someone like George Ford clearly has had 11 years of playing Test Rugby and 102 caps as of today. and is the expert at that. He's the best of the tens that they've got at doing that. I mean, Finn Smith may get there in time, but he's got, what, 11, 12 caps now. So I feel like they do have brains now, which maybe England teams in the past haven't shown, adapting mid-game.

8:45The reason I said they did lose it last year is because they were in a similar situation being ahead against the Wallabies and then crumbled. This is a better, I think this is a better England team 12 months on. It's a deeper England team, 12 months on. But the reason I, while applauding those obvious strides forward, still would only give this a sort of 6 out of 10 satisfactory mark is because Australia are not the team they were at Twickenham 12 months ago. This Australia team that played here today is not the Australia team that beat South Africa and played so well against the Lions in Melbourne.

9:18They were without the three most important physical players in Will Skelton. Three of the four, because Teddy Elitupo was playing today, and he played really well, I thought. But Lenny Ketel, Will Skelton, and Tom Hooper at six. And so they had very little. We talk about how England couldn't get Manny Ferraboso in the game. Will and I were chatting on the way around earlier about Joseph Suwili and how he, in that game a year ago, just bestow Twickenham, extraordinary performance. and the Wallabies can't get him in the game in attack. And they didn't in the Lions. We were saying that on our pods then, weren't we?

9:52It's really weird because you sort of think, did you not notice like everyone else that he was really good here? And then you just sort of never put him back in that situation. Like they won the first kickoff, they did it. And it didn't go Australia's way, it just bounced the other way. But I found that weird for months now that Joseph's a brilliant athlete and they just like never use him. Yeah, there's a few people in Australia who think he's too restricted at 13 and should play 15. But my point is that England have found a way to win today, yes. But it was against a pretty... It was an underpowered and understrength and tired Australia team.

10:26They were playing in Tokyo last weekend. Not all of them, but some of them. And they haven't got a 10. They haven't got a decent 10, which doesn't help. And no backup either. And no backup. So that's why I'm not going overboard about this England win because you've got to put it in the context. Yes, they've won it. There are elements that I applaud about it, particularly defensively. and strategically George Ford I think had a really good game in that sense just recognizing what wasn't working and how to make it work but and so it's a pretty good entry point to an autumn series where they've got the kind of unpredictable danger of Fiji and then the All Blacks and then Argentina it's a decent entry point but they'll have to improve a lot within in two weeks before the

11:06Alfie: All Blacks come yeah and the point about I think the Wallabies is fair they'd be pretty disappointed with how they played today and you could tell in in the presser that joe schmidt and harry wilson were kind of saying yeah we possibly are just a bit lethargic and off it after that match against japan but i will say they chose those fixtures yeah for sure no one's made them those both this game and last week's game outside the window so they've taken the cash that's their choice you i don't buy i don't buy it as an excuse that we've had to travel don't play the game it's the same excuse that steve buffick made about oh we had four training sessions and they had four and a half months which to start with is incorrect because if you're counting the four and a half months the start of that period England were in camp and playing test matches as well so like that's a that's not just incorrect and then secondly as we said to Steve Borthwick himself have you asked the RFU about that because they put in this extra game talk to Bill Sweeney don't tell us about this like Bill Sweeney and the RFU wanted to make 10 12 million pounds out of today so they didn't have to play this game neither side but they did and you're right though I think Australia did look tired and it was actually something that Joe Schmidt basically predicted before the game because when we asked him that question and said oh Steve Borthwick says you've had four and a half months he's had four sessions he said well we've actually only had two sessions it's like the four Yorkshiremen sketch and we've done this circumnavigation of the globe and we've had 15 tests in 20 weeks in nine different time zones and you're like well they do look they do look tired lethargic.

12:28On a wider point it's not good for the international game I know test rugby is the is the financial engine for all the everything that sits below it but you can't you can't keep rolling out test matches and expect people this wasn't a classic test match this wasn't a blood and thunder occasion didn't feel it in the crowd it couldn't be because the wallabies were under strength if you fast forward to the end of this november wales will play the world champions outside of the window so they will be desperate they will be below that's gonna be awful so it's the the rarity factor but test rugby has to be the best of the best or we'll end up like one day cricket where there's so many of them you can never be at your best never play your full team but it doesn't really matter because there's another one next week there's there's a balance to be struck here and i think at the moment it's it's falling the wrong side of this balance there's too many of these games the nation's championship comes next year but that's only every other year there will still be matches being played outside the window and i think it's it's damaging to the to the whole product i didn't think about it that way but that's probably going back to what we were saying right at the start about the flatness of the atmosphere that's got to be part of it hasn't it it's almost like this is a bit navel gazing maybe but sometimes when we go to see england or the lions or whatever team we're covering and they just give us a player and we don't really know why you sort of go well what's this for what are they trying to say what's the story and they go oh it's just you know talk to him and maybe that was like today it was sort of it's england australia everyone and everyone goes yeah but like what for what's the context here what's the beef what's the fieriness what's the niggle and And everyone, they just go, no, but it's just England and Australia, lads.

13:57Like, just enjoy it. And you go, all right, well, same as all every year, is it? The sort of beef and niggle came very late. Right at the end, yeah. Well, on the day, right at the end. But in the build-up with the revelations of what England brought into the referees meeting and the concerns they had and Joe Schmidt sort of firing back at England today. Armed with the exact stats. All the numbers and basically saying it was disappointing conduct from England. England and I think he probably he doesn't necessarily mean what they flagged in the meeting but how detailed the that information was that then reached the public domain afterwards

14:33Alfie: this was about the side entries at the yeah at the ruck yeah and it was interesting that Nika the referee Nika Amshakeli the referee who I thought he's I think he's really good and I thought he had a really good day it was almost like he was sending a message early that he pinged the Wallabies twice very quickly and then ping England for the same thing and it was a it's a bit like you're not influencing me lads i'll see what i see uh and i quite liked i mean i'm sure it wasn't deliberate but i quite liked the fact that he just he went into this game going you guys you can play all your games you can you can put stuff in the media you can fire back well i'm just going to see see what i see and oh look look what i see benel's in the side as well sorry that was that a side end yeah it was it but penalty there you go yeah it's funny yeah this episode of the ruck is sponsored by Allianz.

15:18Alfie: Beyond the Allianz Stadium, Allianz are committed to making rugby more inclusive, visible and accessible for all. Through their Allianz Future Fund, Allianz has already invested over£100 ,000 in community clubs across the UK, supporting initiatives which bring more people into the game. They're also reaching 5 ,000 schools through the Allianz Kickstart programme, introducing the game of rugby to kids who've never played before. Check out the show description box for the link to nominate your rugby club for an Allianz Future Fund grant today.

16:16Alfie: bring them together in one place. To learn more about how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

16:50Alfie: We'll be right back.

17:16Alfie: or familiar de cáncer de colon. Pide la prueba de Cologuard a tu médico. Para más información en español, visita Cologuard.com-prueba.

17:29Alfie: Look, in terms of the game, as we've mentioned, the England bench was huge. So, so important. We spoke about it on the pod, Alex. On Thursday, you've written about it as well, that England needed a kind of bench that could win in a World Cup in two years' time. I suppose the thing that I'm thinking about after this game was the bench was so good it had such an impact as you would expect when you bring five British and Irish Lions and all those caps off the bench at one time how do England almost balance that going forward because I can't imagine they're going to do that every single game no and if you look to this game if those five had started then the game would probably have been won earlier and they wouldn't have needed the same impact off the bench but but to get to the to get to the point that you're talking about, Alfie, they need to grow the test, wisdom and experience of those who are likely to be on the bench.

18:19Like the Hayes-Baxter guys. Who are pretty good, actually. They kept the scrum up nicely against Tupo and Bell. I thought they... Yeah, and I think where Steve Borthy was trying to get to is to have a 23 where it's either seamless between the 15 and the bench or he can kind of follow the South African model and have a certain style of player coming off the bench. But he's got to build that. Now, as you said to us downstairs, if you had a perfect clean bill of health, which kind of never happens, but if you did, you throw George Martin into the mix as well today. Ben Curry's not fit at the moment.

18:54You could chuck him into the mix. Just because we're talking forwards here. What he's clearly building is a future where England go 6-2 pretty much every game, which is why he's talked about the versatility of certain forwards being able to cover the back line. I mean, the fascinating thing will be what he does for the All Blacks game. But I don't see him balancing his 23 like this, because if you're out of the game after 50, 55 minutes, then the five lions off the bench, it's kind of too late. I think he'd either balance it, split them, or reverse the balance of the team for that game in two weeks' time, I feel.

19:29but I see where he's trying to get to with it I was actually just asking Owen Slott earlier about the build up to 2003 and we know England's great back row of 03 of Richard Hill, Neil Bat and Lawrence Delaglio but in the two or three years in the build up to that you'd often watch England and Joe Worsley would be starting or Lewis Moody would be starting or Martin Corrie would be starting in that back row and why would he ever not just always pick Hill back Delaglio? Why would you ever change it? partly because Moody and Worsley brought different skills, but it meant that he had five who could all have started the World Cup final in 03.

20:07And that was just on my mind this week. And I was asking Slotty about whether, way back when, every time Woodward named a team and it had Worsley in the back row instead of Richard Hill, was there a kind of like, what's he doing? Why has he dropped Richard Hill? Famously never did, actually, didn't he? Famously never did. It was Delaglio, but yeah, yeah. Or back. so Rich Hill bad example Delaney are back and Slotty was like well actually the narrative was always Clive Woodward is ruthless if you have anything below 100 % game you're gone next guy in but that's deliberate because it built this intense competition between them and it's a long winded way of saying I think Borthwick is trying to do the same thing

20:45Alfie: but do you not think they are getting there again if I was looking at the positives again from this it does all of a sudden I think feel like an England team where there is more depth they are building that experience there are far more options Tom Roebuck who was in the mix zone is quite a good example of that, I think, on the wing. They're definitely getting there. Like I said earlier, this team heading into this autumn feels a better team than the England team that came into the autumn of last year. So, yeah, I think they are making strides, but that's what he's trying to do. That's why he's picked the team, the 23 that he picked today, is because he's trying to fast-track some of the development of a Finn Baxter and a Joe Hayes, who's been around the England set-up for ages, but only now feels like he's actually proving himself as a test player two things i'd love to talk about on the on the sort of theme of the bomb squad thing and and the other thing that's come out this week about the hybrid stuff that we talked about on a couple of pubs this week firstly the literal sight of five guys coming on together is a definite psychological flex isn't it like that's the way the box have done it with seven at once they did it first here didn't they against the All Blacks before the last World Cup I was here for that game and Bath have sort of aped that and done it themselves haven't they and other teams England did it today we sit on the other side of the stadium from the bench but there's also talk about the psychology and England go into a lot of depth in a lot of these things but the pure white jerseys coming on the box can't quite match that it's just the idea of Henry Pollock's hair as well but it's just like clean out the box it's very obvious to see where these five lions are coming on fully fresh it looked it was a flex from Balfour today and it worked so I like that and I like because I can as an elite player you are if you're leggy and knackered in minute 60 or whatever it was 52 was it something like that and you look up at the big screen or over to the sideline you go oh man look what's coming which is exactly what the box have been doing to everyone including England where you go oh man we've just got their number and here comes Ox and Che and the rest of them.

22:51That's what they've done in two World Cup finals and everything else. The second point I want to make, which is sort of a wider thing, is that Steve Borswick's talking about all that stuff and it's really admirable and I like the hybrid idea and I like the bomb squaddie type idea, but my fear with all of it is that he's eight years late. And English sport always tries to follow who's at the top and do the same thing rather than going, well, what are we going to do that's better? English football has had this problem for probably centuries of going who's the best all right Brazil oh we'll do that uh no Germany now okay so we've got to do it like this oh no Spain hang on we want to play possession football now so we'll do that rather than going what's the English way of doing this and to me this week has felt like there's been three examples leaking videos to the press there's been bomb squads and hybrid players and you're like Razzie Razzie Razzie like is Steve Borthwick trying to become Razzie Mark II should he just be Steve Borthwick the first rather than Razzi Rasmus the second you know what I mean I mean that's a little bit harsh

23:50Alfie: as he himself would say if he wasn't trying to build depth and build experience in his team ahead of the world cup then he wouldn't be doing his job and you know the bomb squad thing I think it worked we've seen that with South Africa it works it's a psychological thing it's a reflection of the depth in your side like I don't really no I I totally agree with that all I'm saying and I'm not saying that particular thing is the wrong thing to do I'm just saying that my worry is that everyone goes in the English setup goes like right South Africa the best so what are they doing and how can we do our own version of that rather than going actually it doesn't matter what South Africa are doing we're going to do something else better does that make sense but I'm not necessarily criticizing him for doing the the bench thing and trying to grow depth definitely not because that's really sensible but it's just that whole thing of who's number one in the world and what do they do let's copy it was what Clive Woodward set out to I mean there's another 03 throwback but his point in the build up to 03 was you know we we don't copy anyone they copy they will have to copy us and like some of his innovations were taken on by everyone else absolutely well the you know the skinny shirt the skin tight jerseys they're all wearing now was was fly woodward and changing them at half time and some of them are a bit mad and the players were like what's this next crazy thing that they're doing but yeah i don't know maybe that's it's a different point perhaps but english cricket has had it as well like oh we need to do what everyone else is doing do your thing better point about um englishness is interesting like the english identity of rugby because what steve is saying a lot to us is that he doesn't have the players to play the english way the kind of almost like 10 man up the jumper let's just maul them and scrum them to death he's like we don't have those players so here's like the english kind of bench brigade look very different to the we need a name for it we do need a better name than that but they look very different because the box send them on to just grind their opponents into the ground.

25:44And other than Curry, who is just melting people again today, it's a much more dynamic, high-intensity, high-speed, cover the ground, make as many tackles in 25 minutes as everyone else has made in 55 minutes. There is a different flavour to what he's trying to do, which isn't an traditionally English flavour because he doesn't think he has the cattle to build that. This is going to be bad, but I've just thought, could we call them the menace men or something like that? No. Dismissed immediately. Because I was just thinking we should talk about Henry Pollock, right? Because he added obvious Henry Pollock energy to this and scored a brilliant try with his incredible catch off his toes, which England for the whole game were dropping those sorts of things.

26:33And he caught it and scored the try that changed the game. And that is massively to his credit. And there was another carry where maybe when he's got five caps as opposed to two, like this is literally his second cap, he ran away from support a bit. But that one was awesome and lit the place up. It got everyone off the seats brilliantly. It did exactly what he should have done, bringing that Pollock-y kind of bounce and energy to the thing. And then Curry does it in a different way by just whacking guys. I loved, I mean, how England handled Pollock this autumn into the Six Nations is fascinating because everything we're discussing here, for me, has him pigeonholed as a bench impact player.

27:06And yet we know from watching him play for Northampton that he can be as energetic in the 80th as he is in the first. Basically, at what point do England start him at eight, probably, given they don't have anyone else other than Ben Earl? Whose nickname is Riggs? Riggsie. Yeah, Riggsie. I don't quite know where that's come from. Is it to do with his rig, as in his body? I hope it's more inventive than that. It's a bit boring, that, isn't it? Anyway, they don't have any other number eight. So when do you start Henry Pollock at eight? because I think they need to know what that kind of energy injection can do for them in the first 50-55 of a test match rather than just using him off the bench he's only two caps, three tries fantastic but there will be a plan 45 minutes less of rugby I'd be interested to know at what point in this season when England start looking or consider starting him in test matches maybe next week the other thing I kind of love about the Pollock thing and hopefully we can follow his career for a long time is that everyone knows and jokes about the fact that he's really annoying but in a nice way.

28:10But actually I think it's interesting because now we've got such a deep resource of back rowers in the England team including Pollock. Pollock's the guy that's sort of like niggling and annoying and getting on top of people. I sort of hope that it works positively that he then makes the others better because they're like, well I can't let that guy in the team instead of me. kind of that sort of like even for example and this is nothing against guy pepper in the slightest but we had a situation in the mix and after game here where pollock and pepper came in together and obviously lots of people went to talk to henry pollock to the point where guy pepper went is anyone going to come and speak to me like as a bit of a joke and like i think we found it with ben early on the lions tour where we're talking a lot about pollock and you started to think that he was going i'm here too by the way like i quite i hope they use that positively and i'm sure they will do that his presence means that people go well i'm not leaving my spot open for him to just nick it but it's a it's a fascinating one because he's the one that you know that lifts the crowd lifts the crowd you know it's and he loves it doesn't he like he's looking at himself on the

29:09Alfie: big screen he's jumping up and down he's chewing does he play chewing gum i think he's probably he's always chewing caffeine gum before he comes on right okay just to hype himself up a little bit more but i you know it's that's you know so what i've got guy pepper was joking and ben earl was sort of semi-joking when he said it. But it's like, you can't ignore the guy who, A, scored the try that sort of sealed the game, and B, the one who, you know, when they named the five players, Pollock was the last name, was the biggest cheer. Like you did in the Lions announcement and everything. And actually, to be fair, like when Marcus Smith comes on here, whenever Smith comes on, there's a big cheer.

29:48You know, you can't, you know, we're doing a job where we're trying to convey what's happening to our readers and listeners who are England fans. And so therefore, they want to know what Henry Pollock thinks about things.

29:58Alfie: Lads, let's round it off because on multiple occasions I've seen people come and have a little look and I fear we're going to be getting kicked out fairly soon. England's first game of the autumn. Score out of 10? Six. I'm going to go seven. We'd actually had that conversation before, hadn't we? Oh, have we? Did we? I said six out of 10. Oh, OK. I must have missed that. Well, we agree. Well, I'll tell you what. Get in touch with us. Email theruckatthetimes.co.uk. what did you make of England's first game of the autumn? We'll try and get to some of those on Monday's pod where we'll be in the studio, Will.

30:28Alfie: In the studio. With a special guest. I'm not going to say who, but we're... Possibly teeing up the best game of next weekend. Let's leave it like that. Let's leave it like that. So get in touch with us. Thanks for listening. And yeah, we'll be back with you on Monday. Thanks for listening to The Ruck. Before you go, a final word on the work Allianz is doing behind the scenes. We often talk about the stars of the Gallagher Prem or the national side, but we all know these journeys start at local community clubs. That's why Allianz is launching a special edition of the Allianz Future Fund, created specifically for you, our listeners.

31:03Alfie: Allianz is offering grants ranging from£500 to£1 ,000 to help make rugby more inclusive and sustainable. Whether your local club needs a new kit or better facilities to help today's young players become tomorrow's heroes, this is your chance to help them out. Your move. Sign up for the Allianz Future Fund now to nominate your local rugby club. Let's support the clubs that shape the future of the game. Hi, I'm Danny Fortson from the Times Tech Podcast, which is currently sponsored by ServiceNow. ServiceNow describes itself as an AI control tower for business reinvention, connecting systems, data and AI so workflows more smoothly across organizations.

31:49Alfie: the platform integrates with different clouds models and data sources bring them together in one place to learn more about how service now puts ai to work for people visit service now.com