England's 'New Phase' November; Wallabies Preview

0:15Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Alfie here along with Alex at the England training base on a Thursday ahead of November. Autumn internationals, Alex, getting underway this weekend. the teams are in both teams have been named now for the england australia game we're almost there kickoff yeah looking forward to it so the england team was named on tuesday the wallabies have named their team today on a thursday we've been chatting to richard wigglesworth and mara toje today so there's quite a lot for us to unpack here alex i suppose if we wind the clock back two days ago tuesday england named their team i thought this was a fascinating team that steve borthwick has gone with for this weekend yeah it is really interesting I think there's elements of risk but there's elements of development and I don't just mean just giving players caps or minutes I mean there's elements of evolution and where this team is he's trying to take the team and that's you can see that with his decision to put his first choice front row on the bench you can see it in his decision to move Tommy Freeman to outside centre I know he started outside centre against Wales the time has come for him to execute the strategy that he's been planning for a while there's just and then and then of course when he came in spoke to us he started talking about Ben Earl now being ready to start test matches at 12 yeah Henry Pollock training on the wing Guy Pepper covering the backs as well allows him to play 6-2 bench there's a lot of moving parts a lot of fascinating elements to this team and you know I think part of it is if this was the all blacks or or spring box first up i've definitely been doing all of this but the wallabies are are not at full strength and i think he feels this is a this is a game that i think he needs to win but he can also start the evolution of of this team so yeah let's let's go we'll get on to the lawrence the freeman stuff ding war at 12 forward at 10 but the versatility thing was the thing for me that and i'll re-say what i said on monday's pod with will when we were up here that I know Steve Borthwick gets some criticism and I think in particular some of that criticism is valid when it comes to his individual um how he's dealt with some of the players and changing captaincy or maybe even the game plan but I think he is as bold a selector as I have ever seen as an England head coach and I think this team absolutely underlines that yeah Alfie I agree with you I think he's he's a really ambitious um creative selector pretty bold selector I think sometimes what doesn't help him is that his natural demeanor means he doesn't often sell those selections as well as other coaches some of his other coaches might do and he definitely he's definitely frustrated at the idea of the perception of him of being a a data coach a conservative game plan coach he's he's clearly trying to evolve that image of himself and but if you look at the selections that he's made throughout his England time he He hasn't been afraid to make big calls.

3:10And he's making big calls for this game. But they're not knee-jerk selections. You could argue Noah Calori being in this squad, he's only played, I think, two Prem starts for Saracens. But he's here, particularly this week, because there's nobody in the English game who can replicate what Joseph Alcuso Suoliti does for the Wallabies in training and really test England in the air. But you look at the selections, Guy Pepper has been on the radar for a long time. Noah Kalori himself has been on the radar for a long time. Moving Tommy Freeman to 13, it was always in England's plan to migrate him in from the wing this season.

3:45And now they're doing it. There's a planned evolution for this team. Now, of course, you've then got other selections of, do you go George Ford or Finn Smith at 10? I don't think Marcus Smith was ever in that conversation. I think you've seen the development of Freddie Stewart at fullback, both offensively and defensively. Sort of make him sound like an NFL player there. both in attack and defence he played really well for Leicester so I think and then we get to the front row conversation that he's picked Finn Baxter, Joe Hayes and Jamie George together, now they played together for England on the summer tour and they've retained the starting jerseys again I don't think he does that if the Boxers are in town or even if the All Blacks are in town we'll discover that in a couple of weeks time but it allows him to pack the bench and I wrote a piece on Tuesday that that is you know we might not like the idea of a 23-man squad we might kind of heart back to the days of just a small bench when you bring on players if you have to the box have proven demonstrated that those days are gone and they're not coming back so you have an eight-man bench so how can you use it to the best advantage for your team now the box do it by loading it with with mega forwards although they're now shifting because Andre Esserhaisen is being used as a back row forward to the point where they might sell one of their benches at some point soon as being a 4-4 split.

5:03England are going 6-2, but they're building versatility. But also, one of the big points that Borthy wanted to make about this game and this team is that if you remember 12 months ago, England were in the middle of a run of losing test matches to Tier 1 nations by small margins. I think it was seven consecutive defeats to Tier 1 nations by an average of 4.4 points. He didn't feel he had the bench in to kind of control those games at the end. What he's done here is pick a team that he believes can, obviously he believes they can beat the Wallabies, but he believes they can be at least in the game before he sends on a stack of experience off the bench.

5:47Alfie: So is this a bench to win England the World Cup in two years' time? Is this what he's trying to build towards? Yeah, he's trying to build a 23, slightly more than 23, but his vision will be World Cup final day in 2027. He's got a 23, 25, who could almost be interchangeable, starters or bench. If you look at what the box have done, arguably kept their most dangerous, impactful front row on the bench to come on. England still have certain positions where there's a drop-off between the first choice and the second choice. and part of this selection I believe for a thin backs with a Joe Hayes is that they've got a big job to do on Saturday but in thrusting them in into the starting jerseys it will get them more game time than they would have had it will help reduce the gap between the first choice and the second choice I believe and so that's what he wants because when you get to a World Cup it's about versatility as we've discussed it's about squad depth and the Springboks have proven and that squad depth is what wins your World Cup.

6:53And if you can send on eight fresh players and the quality either doesn't drop or potentially goes up, then it takes a hell of a team to live with you.

7:03Alfie: And England learnt that in the World Cup semi-final pretty brutally with that replacement Springbrook front row. Well, exactly. England were on top until the box emptied the bench. And then the game changed. If you just think back, the box used that bench very cleverly because they were on the verge of being out of that game when they had a big summit meeting in the coaching box. Manny Libot gets hooked after half an hour, Andre Pollard comes on. That's smart coaching. That's reactive coaching. And coaches get criticised for pre-planning subs. I don't think it's pre-planned. I mean, obviously it wasn't with the box that day.

7:36I don't think England go into a game with a plan as such. But what you know you have, what you want to build, is, as Borthy called it, a weapon that you can bring on and change the game, whether you're on top and you just completely kill off an opposition, or you're in the game and you need to increase tempo, increase intensity, increase power. That's what he's trying to build in this squad, and versatility is key within it, because if you go 6-2, you need forwards who can cover in the backs.

8:05Alfie: Yeah, so to cover that off in case anyone missed it. So the thing I really enjoyed on Tuesday, actually, speaking to Steve Borthwick, is he offered this up. I was going to get to it, but he almost brought it up before I even did when I was chatting to him in the interview that I was doing. And he said, look, in terms of selection, obviously, you know, at this point, I'll say Oli Lawrence was so close to selection. But Tommy Freeman playing 13, he's played there before. But bringing him inside means that we can pick another one of the great wingers we've got at the moment. And when we were speaking about the England training squad the week before, it was just loads of wingers.

8:39Alfie: So you get an extra winger in there. And then he just went through the options and he said Finn Smith could cover midfield, which I think maybe surprised quite a few people because we haven't seen him there. He said Guy Pepper can cover the backs. Henry Pollock could be a winger. Ben Earl is ready potentially to actually start at 12 in a test match. And yeah, I just found it absolutely fascinating, really, as he laid out that plan. And even if you disagree with it, I think you can look at it and say, OK, geez, I'm not. I would have had Lawrence starting, but OK, that makes sense. and I thought Marcus Smith would be the bench option and it's Finn Smith and I'm not sure if him is at 12 but at least you can see the plan here.

9:14My sense, and England won't confirm this, my sense is that Lawrence is probably not quite ready. I know he's played for Bath and he's back way earlier from his Achilles rupture than anyone expected but the game plan that England intend to bring every time they take the field, not just against the Wallabies who are a quick attacking team, is to play at such a pace. it's one of the reasons why Borthwick last year had he had 17 players on central contracts he wanted to leave some spaces open um almost as a as an enticement for others to go and earn it this year he was like I need all 25 because I need the prem doesn't get them test test fit level not to play the game that England are talking about playing really quick um huge running meters um intensity and I'm not sure that Lawrence is quite there yet on his on his recovery so I can understand why he he isn't quite close enough but what i found fascinating on tuesday was as you say alfie steve's desire to to present this and and he's he's quite it's quite refreshing it was very and it was very deliberate um i think partly he's frustrated at the perception of him and the perception of him is based in reality you know he is a he is a coach who delves incredibly deeply into his research, into data.

10:32It's just, we know that. The Leicester team that he coached and the England team that he coached in his first year were very narrow in their ambition. It was kick pressure and set-piece. And it won them a premiership title at Tigers and he got England third at the World Cup. But, and that was, you know, so that's undeniable. That was and has been him. And that is sort of the core of him as a coach. But as we said at the start, But selection-wise, he's much more ambitious than that. And I think England have tried to find a coaching team that will create the right balance. And obviously, they've got a lot of coaches in here at the moment, with Byron McGuigan coming in and now Lee Blackett as the new attack coach, Richard Wigglesworth moving to defence.

11:14But I think they're trying to find a formula where they can play this style of high-tempo, high-intensity rugby. And I think he offered it up. all of these permutations and they won't all happen immediately i could definitely see fin smith covering 12 and i that's one of the things that if i was marcus smith i'd be thinking oh i'm a 10 or 15 but if you've got a 10 12 who can be on the bench that's more valuable to a coach because you've got tommy freeman who can cover 15 you've got roebuck who can cover 15 and who

11:44Alfie: might also be more natural 15s than marcus smith is as well the marcus but so i think i i think Borthwick offered it up because he's he's wanting to demonstrate that he's a coach who is thorough in his research but not narrow in his in his outlook one more question on Ollie Lawrence there was a part of me Alex when I first saw the team on Tuesday that I thought is this a bad omen for Ollie Lawrence and having spoken to Steve Borthwick I don't think that is the case I think he is still very much a part of the plan and as we've said previously he's playing really well for Bath off the back of a serious injury but there was a part of me that wondered about when would it have been six nations time we were talking about the england midfield henry slade ollie lawrence and they had finally had a real level of continuity there that england had struggled with virtually since they won the world cup and they'd invested a lot of time in that and there was part of me that wonders have they looked at that have they given that loads of time and thought actually do you know what this isn't quite right and we kind of feel that henry slade is maybe starting to be on the way out of the England setup and I wonder whether that was the case for Oli Lawrence as well uh well it's definitely the case for the partnership yeah they were up there with in terms of consecutive appearances together with the great England midfields of uh of history um I do feel Slade is on the is on the way out and you know that's makes puts him in a really interesting position because he's out of contract with Exeter does he re-sign with Exeter and keep fighting as when I saw him a couple of weeks back he was like there's no guarantees about a World cup and he knows that more than anyone so i wouldn't be surprised to see him move abroad and maybe and i agree in the opposite to tom willis like he's given everything if you can feel you on this on the slide out of the picture i wouldn't i wouldn't blame him at all i think ollie lawrence is still key to this england team i feel his best position is 13 um i think you get more out of his footwork in his running game but he can offer some power at 12 i wouldn't have i wouldn't at The moment expecting them to go Lawrence at 12, Freeman at 13, I don't feel that would have the right balance yet, particularly with Freeman having to adapt.

13:50I know he's played a lot of 13 for Northampton, but the defensive challenges I was just talking to Richard Wigglesworth about, of playing 13 at test level, particularly against someone like Sueli, I'm not surprised at all that they've gone for Dingwall and Tommy Freeman. They were Dingwall alongside Tommy Freeman.

14:07Alfie: I'm glad to see Dingwall there, by the way. Yeah, not as a safety net, but just as a kind of guiding hand. He's such a big piece. I spoke to him last week and wrote it for the paper, Thursday's paper, with Fraser Dingwall on being the glue player, as they call him. And I did a lot of reading on glue players in sport and glue people in business and the qualities that those people bring to an environment where they may not shine themselves, but they facilitate others who are perhaps more outrageously skillful than them, and he's a classic example of that and he may well and he's got an opportunity now with Seb Atkinson injured to glue the back line together to demonstrate that this can be his jersey now that they can build a team around him and then in terms of squad you've got an Ollie Lawrence and a Tommy Freeman competing at 13 Seb Atkinson when he's fit different type of 12 gives a different option at 12 depending on what 10 you want to pick I think there's the makings of a really exciting England squad here.

15:12Inexperienced, but the variety and the breadth of talents that they could pick from is exciting for Borthwick and all England fans, I think.

15:22Alfie: Yeah, I'm really pleased for Dingwall because obviously he started the end of the Six Nations, went on that summer tour where you were thinking what an opportunity for him to kick on and then got injured, missed those games. So I can imagine he must have been there thinking, is my shop window disappearing here? And what I admire about him and players of his like is just the persistence and resilience. Like, I really like the sort of theme of the unrated, the undervalued, the unappreciated player within a team. I think he's a classic example of it. And he's got four caps. He was first called up into an England camp in 2020.

15:56Like, he's been, he spent five years coming into this training camp and he's only got four caps. but he's never like you know England have been striving for partnerships who's the 12 and if Fraser's England's been there the whole time and it's almost like he's not sexy enough he's not powerful enough but what I'm fascinated to watch with him and we've seen it with Northampton I think we saw at the end of the Six Nations is and as I wrote in the in the paper today that element of being the glue player can be a super skill in its own right because if you can be the guy that helps everyone else play that much better without ego without needing to be the guy that that creates that makes the line break that scores the try you just facilitate it for everyone else that could be invaluable alongside the experience of a guy like george ford the impact that a fin smith could could make coming off the bench um as a real opportunity for for him and i just admire the resilience and and the persistence to to keep fighting for for the england jersey and and he I did ask him and he didn't obviously want to talk specifically about Tom Willis, but what we understand and what we discussed about Tom was that he didn't quite know where he fitted in the England set-up and so he's decided to go to France.

17:05Fraser Deanwell hasn't known where he is for five years and nothing will sway him from his desire to play for England. That kind of quality and mentality, that mindset, will go a long way in a Steve Borthwick set-up.

17:19Alfie: Final question on England. Where are they heading into this November, Alex, which I think is going to touch upon your preview piece. I believe I'm correct in saying that it's a bit of a new phase for this England team. Well, there's inevitably, when you come home from a Lions tour, the next big landmark on the horizon is a World Cup and it's two years away. But there's a real new phase feel about this England team in the sense that they came out of that run of narrow defeats and had the best Six Nations performance since 2021, winning four out of five. then went on tour without their Lions and I thought looked really exciting against Argentina.

17:58There was a snap to them in defence with Byron McGuigan on that tour. There was a real accuracy and sharpness about them in attack, which we've often watched England and thought, oh, they're almost there, but they can't quite. And this time they did. And I thought we were down in Australia where the Lions were trying to find this harmony in attack and couldn't quite get it because they were up against the clock. And then I'd watch England play the Pumas in Argentina and thought they looked smooth. And George Ford pulling the strings was magnificent. So I think England are coming into the first campaign of the pre-World Cup phase, two-year phase.

18:41I know it feels like a long time, but that's how they're now approaching it. Calendar-wise, it feels like a quite long time. But in rugby terms, I mean, that's what England have been talking about since they came in. their ambition from now. I mean, always, but they've started talking about winning the World Cup, winning now and winning the World Cup. And so it feels like there's a new, entering a new phase, but I think they're entering it with real promise. It's a fairly challenging autumn. Australia are under strength. Fiji are just such a hard team to play because if they click, you're in trouble.

19:16Everyone's in trouble. All Blacks is the toughest of the games. And then Argentina, right at the end, classic Latin temperament. Sometimes they are hot, sometimes they're flat. It's not the hardest autumn of the home nations. And I think it's a real opportunity here for England with an emerging, evolving team, some new coaches on board, some exciting players. And just the signs that we saw back end of the Six Nations. I know Wales were dreadful but they absolutely stripped them apart with some of their rugby, the ambition and the aggression of their mindset and I don't just mean physically but the desire to go after teams was exciting and there are young players who maybe won't play on Saturday but like I said, like I say, they can know a Calori, the front row depth is good Asher, Apokou Fordjaw is in the squad covering both sides It's there for England to start taking some big strides forward.

20:17They're quite long odds for a Six Nations title. At this distance, their trip to France would be the hardest game.

20:24Alfie: That's the one, isn't it? That's a really tough game. But I think they're in with a shout. I think at the moment, before they've played a game, I feel like the upward curve that we saw back in the last season, Six Nations and Summer, is there for them to continue into this autumn. It's promising. I agree. And I think if you wind the clock back a year and it was off the back of a New Zealand tour, they hadn't quite got over the line and there was pressure on them coming into November. And then we know what happens with the results. And it was a tough time. It feels totally different now. And I know things change quickly at Elite Sport and in international rugby.

20:58Alfie: And the Wallabies are more than capable of beating England at the weekend. And then that maybe very much changes the narrative around this team. But it does feel to me that there is a real positivity, a real excitement about this England team. So I'm looking forward to seeing what they produce against Australia. Speaking of the Wallabies, quick break. Next up, we'll chat about them ahead of that game at Twickenham. So Joe Schmidt named his Wallabies squad today as we're recording this on Thursday. Alex, the thing that I have asked multiple people in the England camp this week, I asked Alex Mitchell earlier in the week, I asked Mara Toje and Richard Wigglesworth today because they were all out there on the Lions tour, was how different a Wallabies team are they going to be facing this one to the one the Lions face.

21:39Alfie: And I'm still not entirely sure on what their answer is, in all honesty. What do you reckon? I think, well, it depends which game you're talking about, apart from the house. Yeah, they did totally marry, didn't they? Because they changed quite a bit over those three tests. They're short of some key players. If you think to the second and third tests, MCG and the Olympic Stadium in Sydney, where they had Will Skelton in the second row, roughing people up, like deliberately looking to get in the face to the Lions, get physical, disrupt them, fall on. He was playing like, when you see those heavyweight boxing bouts where the heavier, bigger boxer just is constantly leaning on his opponent because it's just fatiguing.

22:21And every breakdown, he was just flopping on top of Lions players and forcing them to try and shift him. He was just a menace. And that sort of mindset, mentality, attitude that he brought was so important in the Wallabies almost winning that second test and really pushing the Lions. Now, he's not there. Len Ikital, the kind of focal point, power carrier at 12th, he's not there. Tom Hooper. Tom Hooper.

22:48Alfie: Who's had a really good year with the Wallabies. Who's emerged through this year with the Wallabies, been one of their most important players. He can't play either because it's outside the international window. We know all about their injuries at fly half. At fly half, they are decimated. James O 'Connor is not allowed to play. he's away on holiday Carter Gordon who's come back from Rugby League isn't ready Tom Liner's not here so Tane Edmed starts they don't have a specialist 10 on the bench so they are not at full strength they're not going to be the team who gave the Lions almighty scare in Melbourne and beat them in Sydney the one player who is there is Rob Valentini who only played 40 minutes in Melbourne the best 40 minutes that the Wallabies played all series he does play but I'm not convinced he's 100 % fit um he's had this ongoing calf problem yeah all season yeah i'm not sure he's fit so they're not they're not as physically imposing a team hunter paisami will play 12 he's he played well for the reds against against the lions on tour similar style of player just not as good as leonikitao they're not going to be as physically as physically imposing they'll be niggly and they'll be feisty because that's that's who they are what they have built they've had some big wins through this this year that that third test for them uh in the rain and the lightning in sydney was really important and of course that win in South Africa was um history making and those those kind of collective experiences are really important but I think England should be winning this game interesting at the Argentina game as well where they kicked to the corner the net the manner in which they won that game I totally get it the thing I can't shake with this Wallabies team though Alex is you look at them this season and they have had injuries all year in key positions Fly half was a problem in the Lions tour when they were starting Tom Liner in the first test in Brisbane.

24:34Alfie: They've had so many different injuries. Skelton and Valentini haven't been fully fit. But I look at this team and I look at a back row of McRite, Valentini, Wilson. Still some of the quality they have in the back line. And they've done an amazing job this year of absorbing all the adversity. All the reasons why they shouldn't be able to go and win at Ellis Park or necessarily beat Argentina. I know those games are at home so that's slightly different. But they've found a way this year of kind of proving us all wrong. Yeah, they have, and that's good coaching, that's good environment. I think Harry Wilson's attitude as a captain shines through that Wallabies team.

25:08It's an up-yield sort of attitude. He's not a chiselled athlete. He's not there. That's not his style. His is a kind of country Queensland, roll your sleeves up, let's just get stuck in and go and do it for the lads type of attitude. and that's really filtered through this Australia team, allied to the smart, intelligent, cold, sort of clinical coaching of Joe Schmidt. So they've found a really good balance there where they have withstood big losses. I didn't even mention Tom Wright, who is so important for them at fullback and he's out long-term. So they're dangerous. And if they'd been at full strength, I'd have thought England might be in trouble this game.

25:50They'll have a spirit about them, 100%. and they've got combinations that are seriously good. The back row you just mentioned, I mean, those three are such a handful. Valentini's carrying around the corner in the MCG was unbelievable. That's ridiculous. Fraser McRae on the floor. You know, he's, as we've said before, he's the kind of the next great Aussie seven and that jersey's been worn by some quality, quality players and he fills it perfectly for them and fits into that lineage. um i think that the front row this is the best front row they could have picked well should we

26:24Alfie: get on to the front row there i think there's two areas when you look at this aussie team selection that if i'm england i've just got a few question marks over which i think is exciting to see how england go about dealing with that front row is probably the main one and then also line out options because of the back row that england have selected so maybe if we start front row tupo and bell up against baxter and hayes what an amazing challenge but it is a challenge for Finn Baxter and Joe Hayes. Yeah it is. I did a big picture with Alex Corbusiero on the back of the Lions tour. He works for World Rugby analysing scrums giving feedback to coaches and referees and his view having studied all the scrums in the Lions test series was that if Tupac had started all three games the Wallabies would have won the series.

27:08He felt his impact when he did play was so big that it could have turned basically could have turned the Melbourne game and then they obviously one in one in sydney so that's huge if he's if he's on on his game like he was when he finally broke back into the wallaby setup after a period of of a real personal trauma kind of lots of confidence and lots of identity and struggles you know he's a he's a weapon for them angus bell you know one of the best out there huge challenge for hayes and baxter but i think they've got alan alatoa coming off the bench but i think what what england will look at is basically live with them and try and live with them in the first half.

27:46And then blow them away with the bench. And then blow them away in the second. Joe Hayes, by the way, he's evolved, grown as a scrummaging tight head. He's been in and around the England set up for a long time. He's playing the best rugby, I think, of his career right now. Baxter's still very young. I would not be surprised to see those guys holding that Wallabies unit. Bear in mind that Chester Minatoja are behind them. I think England will England would have studied the Wallabies pack they'll have analysed and worked out that this England set up can match what Australia bring at least have an even set-piece battle in the scrum knowing what they can bring on

28:26Alfie: What about line-out? Do you think that might be an area that the Wallabies look at and think that they could have a bit I know, look, in Otojo and Chessham you've got two great operators Pepper I suppose is a line-out option as well but Underhill and Earl less so do you think that's an area that Joe Schmidt and co are probably looking at a little bit? I mean, yeah, they'll have got into the granular studying of lineouts. Pepper will be used as a third jumper, but when you then get onto Alex Cole's coming on, top class English lineout forward, it's a strategic area. I don't know enough about Guy Pepper's lineout specialism to know whether he's going to be a genuine, like whether England are going in with three frontline jumpers or sort of two and a half, but England have gone in with two and a half before when they play Underhill and Curry together in the back row there are there are ways of there are ways of manipulating it and you can't despite the versatility you can't always be 100 % in every area and then if we move it out of the pack and set piece the Aussie back line that we always know has quality in it when you've got Joseph Akawoso, Sueli he's still in it and various other options but halfbacks which has been a problem for them all year with injuries.

29:33I mean, if you imagine Eddie Jones was England coach right now, this week...

29:38Alfie: Tane Edmed would be getting... Talking to us, talking to his players, it would be on our back page, it would be all over our pod. Eddie Jones would be singling out Tane Edmed and telling Sam Underhill, Guy Pepper, just all day, just get in his face, get in his face. He's a young, inexperienced 10. I don't think he's test class. and I think England will look to pile the pressure. I talked about aggression earlier. England are going to be aggressive. You've got Richard Wigglesworth now as their defence coach with Byron McGuigan coming in. One of Wigglesworth's great strengths is communication, motivation, basically a hype man.

30:17England, I think, will be fired up to get in the face of the Wallabies and therefore not allow the ball to get to Sueli and their back three who are rapid and Dangoona on the bench is dangerous. winger himself but I wouldn't be surprised if England's aggression in defence is aimed at stopping the ball getting beyond Hunter Paisami and lining up Taylor because they don't even have a specialist 10 to back him up and that is a real weak combination I think 9-10 for the Wallabies which England will go after.

30:50Alfie: Final question then Alex, tiers up for Saturday then England-Australia Twickenham what does success look like for England this autumn Australia Fiji New Zealand Argentina coming to town well just spoke to Maru Itoji who kind of echoing the sort of boldness that Andy Farrell brought as a Lions coach where Farrell was unapologetic in aiming for an unbeaten tour of Australia I mean they lost to Argentina at home but then when they got down under he was like right we're going to win every game. They obviously fell slightly short, but you don't blame a coach for outlining a desire to win every game and making that a target.

31:28And that's what England are talking about. They see these games as four games that they can win and that they should win. Now, you can measure success in loads of different ways, and it's really interesting. Andy Fowler's a great example where he actually doesn't pin everything on results. You know, his book is really interesting in that regard, that even when Ireland won the Grand Slam, they didn't win it playing the type of rugby or hitting the heights with their rugby that he wanted them to so he felt a little flat about it so there are ways of of measuring success and and the development you know how the success of certain selections and how tommy freeman goes at 13 in a micro sense that there'll be elements through the autumn that can stand out as as a success but if england if england are to as i said earlier to maintain this upward curve and this sort of air of positivity that is around and hope and expectation that's growing around this team then by their own standards they'll win all four games the all blacks will be the toughest but that's those are their standards and quite rightly they are holding themselves to those and

32:32Alfie: so should we yeah exciting times love november it gets underway this weekend the next pod will be with you from the stands at twickenham following the game against the wallabies so myself alex we'll all back together podding from there and then Monday we'll review the full weekend so enjoy November appreciate you listening if you do want to get in touch with us the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk Alex see you at Twickenham Saturday see you Saturday