French dominance in Europe! Bordeaux hammer Leinster

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0:37That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash eligible. 4hers.com slash eligible. Weight loss by HERS is not available in all 50 states. Wegovi is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, We go for clinical study information and restrictions. Visit ForHers.com. Today's episode of The Ruck is brought to you by Allianz. They've been part of the rugby family for over 13 years now, backing the game at every level from the muddy grassroots pitches to the biggest stages in the sport. And their partnership with the home of England rugby, Allianz Stadium, isn't just about putting a name on the building.

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1:41Hello, everyone. Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. I'm here with Alex Lowe. We're standing outside the San Marmere Stadium in Bilbao, next to the river, in the dappled sunshine, basking in Bordeaux's glory as they go back to back in Europe. The Burgundy Berets are out. They smashed Leinster in the Champions Cup final. They've backed up the win from last season. They're European champions again, Alex Lowe. What did you make of Bordeaux-Begle? Well, Bordeaux-Begle have been, I've watched them quite a lot this season. I've written a lot about them.

2:15And it's kind of hard not to fall in love with that club at the moment. The way they play, what they stand for, the positive outlook they have on the game is so different to a lot of other Anglo-Saxon teams, shall we say. Their desire to take risks, to be bold, to go forward, to look for space. They've just got some magical touches. They've got some ferociously physical players as well. And there was so much to love about the club, I think, at the moment. Maxime Lucou was man of the match today. my big preview for the game in Saturday's paper was all centred around him, the boy from the French Basque village nestled in the foothills of the Pyrenees, being able to win the Champions Cup in the biggest Basque city there is.

3:04There's a lot special about it, a lot special about Bilbao, which I think has been a sensational host of the finals weekend. And on the flip side of everything to love about Bordeaux, there's a lot to pick through about Leinster. Yeah so not quite a record defeat in a Champions Cup final that was Leinster against Ulster in 2012 42-14 that day 41-19 today 35-7 at halftime we were looking back through the annals weren't we Alex at halftime and there had only been five Champions Cup finals in history that had featured a team scoring 30 points or more. Only one of them had two teams scoring 30 points or more, Tigers and Saint-François.

3:49And this one, Bordeaux had done it by half time. And it was, Yannick Brew afterwards, their head coach, described it as their best half of rugby of the season. And in some ways, there's probably quite a few of those. There'll be a few, but that was five tries. But even the concession of an early try to Tommy O 'Brien Tommy O 'Brien Leinster which was scored in the 20th phase was exactly what Bordeaux were trying to do you know they it took Bath if you remember the semi-filing against Bath if Bath were to score they had to they had to work so hard for it and they were Bordeaux was set up today that if Leinster were going to score they were going to have to go to the well they scored early but it took them 20 phases to do it whereas Bordeaux what makes them so dangerous is how quickly they can strike and that first half was alright it was emphatic it was commanding they flipped a 7 point deficit into a lead in the space of 4 minutes with 2 really smartly constructed tries with Lukus just at the heart of everything they do pulling the strings he's got quick ball to work with because they're winning the collisions but they're not looking I think the great thing that I love about them is they don't want collisions or they're not looking for them if you get to watch Louis Biobiere's first try which he scores from a pass that has skipped along the floor because Jalibert has got his hands free while being tackled and sort of flipped an unconventional pass over the top.

5:18It's sort of ugly, it's not pristine but that's the whole point of it. They just find ways to find space. Leinster's bullets just could not, I mean it was shown up, the whole Nino Bar project really, I think you could sum it up in the try that Huberti scored off the scrum, pen advantage off the scrum, and Rico Ioani comes flying out because that's his job as the winger, and yet he is not near anybody. Totally lost in a massive hole. He flies out into no man's land. He's completely lost, and they just bypass him and score in the corner. And there were just so many different examples of a team who are on top, so on top of their game, engaged with each other, versus Leinster who were kicking, like kick-offs were going out on the floor.

6:06They'd scored the try and then dropped the kick-off. There's just so many elements of their game, knock-ons under pressure because of the frosty of Bordeaux's defence and they were trying to play a way they're just not comfortable with. It was all brought by how good Bordeaux-Begler are and they're a club that didn't exist 20 years ago. They were forged out of a merger between two clubs in Bordeaux that the fans didn't even want to happen at the start. 20 years on, they're double European champions. And more than that, it's not a plastic manufactured thing. The number of Bordeaux fans who'd come down here, if you ever have a plan to go watch a game in France, go and watch a game in Bordeaux at the Stade Chabon-Delmas.

6:5030 ,000 every week, and they've unified this city that was a football city. It's now a rugby city. Two clubs who still exist as junior clubs, but the union of Bordeaux-Berglet is the bringing of the two junior clubs together into this pro team who are just phenomenal. And they're a staggering force and a cool club, right? They are supremely cool. And almost like you quite like your hipster teams, whatever sport we're watching around the world, whether it's Aussie rules down on the Lions Tour or whatever, you quite like the guys at the bottom. And like, we'll see what West Ham do on Sunday, your football team.

7:32But can you be a cool hipster team when you're the double European champions? Probably not. But if we're to bring some of the colour from, so I've seen, been lucky enough to see Bordeaux three times this year, once at the Delmar against Northampton, where all of that was captured with the kind of Pollock drama, which was fun. Then the bath game at the Atlantique, which was kind of bouncing and fizzing it on my right-hand side from the press box where the fans were. And then here in Bilbao, where the same people are in the same place in the stadium, the whole thing's rocking. Like, we had a very loud tannoy here, but they were drowning it out with the U-Be-Be-Ale-Ale-Ale and all those and Lu-Q chants and things like that.

8:14and I don't know what particularly it is about the coolness thing, but there's all sorts of things in there. They've got a fun kit, like it's a cool different colour, the burgundy. They play in this so dashing style that wants you, like we're here as, we're neutrals anyway as journalists, but there's not an English team here. It doesn't matter to us who wins, but you're kind of, you want Bordeaux to do well because of what it means about rugby, right? Like you wrote it in your match report of, will this swashbuckling style catch on? And look, we realise that they have some monster forwards. Like Ben Tamifun is probably the biggest prop in the world.

8:56Cameron Wockey was amazing. They've got Tom Willis joining next season as if they needed more power. But then this boy-bound backline, you're looking at it going like, wow. Like no wonder this 20-year project has worked and people fall in love with this club. Yeah, they're cool because the kit's cool. But it's all around engaging the city. It's all around the fact that they get, I think they're on 30 consecutive sellouts. Basically, they get over 30 ,000 every week at home in Bordeaux. It's basically the biggest consistent club crowd in the world. It is. They have the biggest average club crowd in the world.

9:34And again, this is a team that didn't exist 20 years ago. It's all designed to engage. so the fans, the locals feel like it's their team. They're so engaged in it, and to the point where, why is it cool? Well, you've got Jalibar, who's the best fly half in the world at the moment. 100%. As we were talking, like watching him warm up and kind of aiming these banana kicks into the corner, and there's something fluid about him. You're watching a guy who just moves effortlessly, who sees space, understands how to manipulate space, and there's something just beautiful to watch about how he plays. He's got a lovely, we discussed it during the game because we had quite a lot of breaks and things to discuss because the game was gone.

10:16And one of the things we were saying, Alex, wasn't it, was that not all fly halves look so languid. And he's like one of those guys you watch and you go, man, he'd be good at tennis. He'd be good at squash. He'd be good at golf. He would be good at paddle. He'd be good at everything. And some tens, like I think of all the great tens over the years, not all of them play in that that manner do they and the i guess the ones that we love the most possibly that go deep into the heart are the ones that play in that kind of dashing style don't they but but there's a there's in the modern era maybe like maybe some of the english ones like owen farrell would be quite an uptight aggressive 10 and george ford would be where he has like lovely fluidity to his play he can be a bit skittish of looking for gaps and just the way he runs and things like that but he just jalibert kind of exudes this sort of lovely french confidence and joy almost doesn't he in the way he moves yeah but there's and there's a coolness in how he executes a game plan as well there's a sort of like his so you talk about what what is it that attracts people to to like this this team there's one example and then if you take completely you got blbri who is just a magician at finding space where space doesn't exist 33rd and 34th try of his season in 30 games this year.

11:32You've got Lukou, who is not Antoine Dupont, he's not the superstar, and yet he I've staggered he wasn't on the shortlist for European Player of the Year. He was definitely the best scrum half in Europe this season, and he's just running the show, pulling the strings, his kicking is phenomenal, his tackling is off the scale. He was leading the tackle charts, he spent 10 minutes in the sim bin. Yeah, he was. He was at 14 at one point. I think he finally lost out to a couple of back rows, Josh D 'Amanda Fleer and the six on the other side. But yeah, they got a 17 and he was on like 14, 15. And then you get to Jefferson Poirot who afterwards, we're at the press conference and the press conference gets stormed by the Bordeaux players, the champagne's being sprayed everywhere.

12:16Jalbert's wearing the lion mascot head. He is. Tamifuna's got, what would we describe those as? Like sort of men in black strip sunglasses that don't have a middle. Goggles, Biabare's got goggles on. champagne goggles. I was quite glad my dictaphone or phone wasn't at the front because everyone got covered. They got covered. And Poirot is banging the table, chanting, Le coup président. Le coup président. Poirot, he joined the club when they were six years old and now he's a double European champion. That's such a funny phrase to say, isn't it? Yeah, it's mad. And Big Ben Tamifuna, like cult heroes at this club.

12:52There's just so much to engage, so much to enjoy about it. And your point about France playing a way that engages. We're about to be joined by two. We're being joined by, what's your name? Baptiste. Baptiste. How good are Bordeaux-Begle? Yes, good party, good match. And thank you for the England people. I love England, but France is bizarre. For the next year, the crunch, Allez les Bleus. Thank you. Thank you. We'll sign it off there with our Bordeaux fans. Where were we? Jefferson Poirot? No, we were talking about winning the way they play. And if you think like Toulouse, who won the European Cup before Bordeaux, and Bordeaux share this philosophy about how to play.

13:40And we talked about it on the pod before. Like freedom of movement. It's about freedom of movement. It's about attacking space. It's about not seeking contact. Because what you don't want is a ruck. Because every time there's a ruck, you give the defence a chance to reset. If you can get a ruck with quick ball, that's preferable. but what they want is to keep the ball alive to find space and play with speed and space. And we discussed it on the pod a few weeks back about, but can you actually win a World Cup playing that way? And I think one of the huge takeaways from watching Bordeaux here and last year is why not they're undefeated in Europe for two years now.

14:2016 consecutive Champions Cup wins, yeah. they've won this the hardest way possible by beating the champions of France to lose in the quarterfinals the champions of England Bath in the semifinals and now the champions of the URC in the final we were trying to cut if readers want to suggest something for us here on the email ruckatthetimes.co.uk what's a good phrase for that yeah I couldn't we're sort of like in the realms of Tiger Slam and things like that in the Arsenal Invincibles it's sort of like the golden defence isn't it like winning it the Bordeaux Slam or something. By beating all the champions of last year.

14:55I couldn't quite come up with anything good enough to include in the match report but I think it felt so worthy, so notable because not only they had to do it the hardest way possible by beating all the champions. So if you can win consecutive European Cups playing with a mindset of trying to attack, trying things. You spoke to Noel McNamara, their attack coach and he said that the most dangerous thing is the fear of failure. It's not the failure itself. It's the fear of it because that stops you trying. And you saw today, they tweaked their tactics a bit because Leinster played with this blitz, so they knew they couldn't get wide.

15:36They just hammered up the middle, two or three phases, but they've got the bodies to do it. The big forwards, Moa Fahner in the midfield, but they strike so quickly. They are lethal, they're clinical. but everything there were moments when you think how's that ball bounce their way and it's something that science could never prove but it's one of those things that you just feel they deserve it because they've earned the bounce of the ball because they're going out there to try they're trying stuff they want they're trying to make it happen so therefore when it bounces their way you're like well fair play and the flip side is Leinster came really to try and stop them scoring now that didn't work I mean That was never likely to work.

16:20They don't know who their fly half is. They took them 20 phases to score their first try. By the time they had another go, the game was done. So the question is why, you know, we watch England and the Six Nations. In those three games in the middle, despite what the coaches say, they were not trying to play fast and move the ball and look for space. Bold, brave, yeah. All that stuff that Steve Borthy talks about, being bold, being brave, playing with a light jersey. That's what it looks like, by the way. That's what it looks like, because what it means is you're looking for, you've got your eyes up, you're looking for opportunities, you're looking for space all the time.

16:55You rewind to England against Ireland in the Six Nations, England against Scotland, where Ben Spencer, England have overlaps, they have five on threes, and Spencer's not, they're not even looking for it, because they're under orders to play in a certain way. so the question is and what you hope is that more coaches watch how Toulouse play, watch how Toulouse are French champions, watch how Bordeaux have played over the course of this unbeaten run over two years and think do you know what, you can win because by the way Bordeaux have a phenomenal defence I mean I thought Penneau today, he's he's put in a box a bit as a mad as a box of frogs isn't he in a bit of a free spirit but he's moved back to 13 and he defended like an epic 13 didn't he like he did and and there if you look at the the stats um over the course of the year and how hard it is for teams to how hard it was for for toulouse to score for barthol school for leinster to score they made them go through masses of phases their 22 defense their goal line defense is is phenomenal they're not just a team that just chuck the ball about they are the perfectly balanced team who if they need to they can beat you by stopping you but you know that they will score because they are so dangerous in attack and it it you know how how Lentz have thought they could come here and just try and shut them down is beyond me they were never it was never going to work no so so let's extend it out a bit we'll do we're going to do the Lentz to chunk in a little second but france as the center of the rugby world it continues right so six consecutive champions cup champions from france two to lose two larachelle two bordeaux they've won four out of the last six challenge cups we saw montpellier smash ulster on friday night where it was a lot hotter than it was today on saturday um back-to-back six nations champions and under 26 Six Nations winners it's got the most vibrant professional rugby league in the world and then two other professional divisions below that is like how do people stop France from just completely wiping the floor with at least European rugby like they haven't won a World Cup yet maybe maybe next year but everything in club rugby and in sort of European Six Nations rugby is French right now isn't it?

19:18It is and I do think that if the draw had ended up differently and if Bath had been here or if Northampton had been here they would have put up a better show than Leinster did so it was, the fact that there wasn't an English club here is unfortunate I think I mean again you could have easily had Bath Porto Toulouse had they been separated. And I guess Bath had their shot in the semi and didn't shoot it as much as they could have done perhaps. No, true but the gap is big and Leo Cullen afterwards, I've heard him say this before i heard him say after the toulouse defeat in extra time at tottenham he's like well we we have different models we're not the same as the french we can't recruit all these players you know they have one statement recruit at the moment enrico juani but they don't they they don't have 14 lines yeah yeah well that's yeah they have grown them themselves they they have the island squad but they do have a test match 20 yeah no absolutely but i think there'll be a lot of English clubs that would laugh him all the way to the bank going oh right you don't have a good system do you?

20:17100 % but he so that's his take on it is his finances and system they they prefer to grow their own but it's the other thing sorry to interrupt you but the other thing that he touched on briefly which I think possibly look we know that the financials are different we know it's easy so like Ulster poor Ulster really on Friday night they're playing against a team that can quite happily bat on two fronts yeah they're second in the top 14 and they smashed them in the challenge cup final a lot of that is resource we get that but there's another thing here which comes back to what we've just been talking about which is speed of thought and almost like it's daring sounds the wrong word because it sounds like you're sort of i don't know throwing three sheets the wind isn't it like throwing caution to the wind but it's that anticipation it's that kind of looking for space all the time it's it's knowing that it doesn't need to be neat and tidy and process it can be a bit more flash and jouet it can be a bit messier like that speed of the way they play is part of it too isn't it yeah it is now obviously squad depth which is basically what you know i leo cullen is is on a he's on tricky wicket trying to claim that they don't have enough good players when they when they do have the island squad but what he's saying is they can't recruit like anyone else.

21:37But if you're England, if you're Ireland, you're looking at the financial strength, the quality and the depth, and the level of competition in the top 14 is underpinning this dominance of the Champions Cup. Yeah, well, it's a decent elixir, isn't it? And on the other side of a little break, we're going to get into Leinster because they keep getting to these finals, banging their head against the wall and coming out with the same bloody head, don't they? So after a little break, let's get on to Leinster.

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23:27That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash eligible. ForHERS.com slash eligible. Weight loss by HERS is not available in all 50 states. WeGovi is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, WeGovi clinical study information, and restrictions, visit ForHERS.com. Get rewarded just for shopping with Simon Plus. Don't miss Memorial Day sales at Simon Premium Outlets and Mills. You can get points at scores of stores, access to exclusive offers, and exciting surprises. You've got an extra day off, so make it pay off with the best deals from brands you love all in one place.

24:10It's a summer kickoff thing. Join today at SimonPlus.com. Rewards program terms apply. See simonfless.com for details. Okay, Alex. So let's dive into the weeds a bit with Leinster before we wrap up. Five consecutive final defeats. They won their first four and they've lost their next five. They've lost them in different ways. This one was not tight like others. They didn't throw away a lead like they did against La Rochelle a couple of times. it maybe in that sense wasn't as gutting because it didn't happen at the end and where it was on the line but that's the worst of the lot isn't it? Like for all we've said about how amazing Bordeaux are and how amazing the French system is and everything else they got absolutely gubbed there didn't they?

24:59Yeah so those five defeats they got beaten by Saracens at Newcastle in what if you talk to any of the Saracens players involved was one of the performances that that team delivered that was a team at its peak winning the double that performance in Newcastle will be one of the days that they will remember forever as one of the great performances that Saracen's team gave they then gave up an 8 point lead against La Rochelle they then gave up a I'm going to say 17 point lead they were 17 nil up 17 nil up at the Aviva 23 and lost they lost to Toulouse in extra time at Tottenham one of the great finals one of the great finals like some of the La Rochelle ones were as well You lose an extra time, bounce the ball sort of situation so tight.

25:44They were in that game. They basically came up against Antoine Dupont, who delivered one of the great individual displays that day. They're heartbreaking. So to lose at home at the Aviva, having given up a 17-point lead, is heartbreaking. To lose an extra time against Toulouse is heartbreaking. And there was a real difference between Caelan Doris' demeanour tonight to his demeanour at Tottenham where he looked haunted almost by losing. That was their third consecutive, third in three years. Yeah, they had a gap with Northampton in the semi last year. So they were heartbreaking, those games, because you know you could have won it.

26:24Here, they were blown away inside 20 minutes. By the first water break, which we had because of the heat, it was over. It was over because Bordeaux were in such control. So this wasn't heartbreaking, this was more damaging. it was more exposing of a project that hasn't worked the shift in game plan under jacques ninabar away from the sort of possession-based a bit like we saw in that first try but the possession-based control that they used to bring and the sort of neat and tidy lovely attacking shapes and lovely diamonds exactly is intricate detail intricacy the johnny sexton running the show at 10.

27:02They've moved away from that to a sort of a kick-pressure, blitz, classic Jacques Nienabar sort of mindset. But it saps their legs for the attack, doesn't it? I think a lot of it is based on where they failed previously in Europe. So they had the shapes and the detail against La Rochelle, but they couldn't match the power. And then they come up against a Toulouse team. Now they get ripped to shreds. Yeah, and so they're like, right we need to we need to re-characterize what we do and nina bar comes in as this great double world cup winning coach and they put they put this project together and i i think this is way more damaging than any of the previous four defeats because it's exposed what what hasn't worked is exposed how far off leinster now are from the best in europe they were they were a gutting extra time defeat away from being the best now they're 20 odd 20 odd points away from being the best but they're out of the game after 20-25 minutes so it's probably not as gutting and Caelan Doris' demeanour he was not haunted tonight he was really disappointed but they were so comfortably beaten that it's more damaging than heartbreaking for them and I think that there is not a lot of sympathy for Leinster outside their own province or island let's say but when you look at the individual athletes at the middle of that, I'm finding that an interesting thing.

28:33The psychology of going back to the well every time, getting to a final and losing it. Like, some of the big players in that team have lost five finals. And they've won one as well. Some of them have won in 18. But the likes of Furlong and Conan and Ryan, it's like how do you keep doing this? They're the three who've played in all five. Lots of others will have been around ring rose has been in a few as well and van der flier and those three have played in all five i mean look at least they've got a medal in the back pocket so they were there last time they won here in bilbao but as a sports that's what i've been trying to ask some players afterwards about it and i'll hopefully try and write a piece about this on sunday for monday but i find that interesting as a psychological thing for the team because everything is in your gift you've got a famously grooved system you regularly win your league titles to the point where not always Munzfurt have won it Glasgow have won it Storms have won it we know that but to the point where that doesn't really do it for you anymore it doesn't really fill up your cup does it to lift that trophy at the end of the season because you go like yeah but we didn't win and then you add Ninava then you add the All Blacks then you have the whole Lions squad basically and you sort of go as a player in the middle of it you're like how do we keep coming back to the well here maybe that's why I'm not a sports person well I think there's I said earlier I'd heard Leo Cullen say this before that there's no threat to Leo Cullen's job he's got one year left on his contract but that has to be a problem and no real desire to get rid of him it seems either or obvious replacement perhaps that has to be a problem because he said exactly the same things after the Toulouse defeat about, well, it's now about how he bouts back and go and win the URC.

30:27And I'm like, the players have heard all this. Well, that's the thing. When does it all run out of road for the players? And I guess they try to revive it all. For the players. Or inject something fresh with Nina Bar coming in and taking over from Stuart Lancaster. And now that's been so brutally exposed. And I think to distill it into a moment of where it went wrong is that Rico Ioani moment. And, you know, they're just, as I mentioned earlier, it hasn't improved the team in the way that the whole project was planned to. They're further away now they were fortunate to make the final because of how the draw panned out.

31:01I think they're a quarter-final team. And Toulon nearly scored in the last day. Yeah, I think they're a quarter-final team at best really. Maybe a tight win to get into a semi. That's a harsh joke there, but that sounds quite Irish. But they're not in the top four teams in Europe in my opinion. So they're fortunate to be here. Who'd be in the top four? Toulouse, Bordeaux and who else? Bath and Northampton. Yeah. Bath probably not on the pedigree stakes, perhaps, but they've only sort of spiked up for one year, so maybe we need to see them come back next year. Talk about this season. Who would have had a better pop at Bordeaux?

31:34Who would have made the final and you'd have gone... I think Leinster had an easy run to the final. Glasgow arguably better than Leinster, arguably as well, based on form, but I just think there was a weird... his first answer Leo Cullen was all well what an occasion what an amazing occasion it was to be part of and I'm like wrong tone that is that no but is that because you know didn't you're kind of lucky to be here yeah possibly and the other thing and I've had two sort of funny run-ins with Leo Cullen this season one I talked about on the pod a few weeks ago when I asked him a question about the sort of pressure of delivery I suppose after the Leicester Tigers game when they didn't play very well but they won and everyone was kind of being like man Leinster not very good what's going on here and he took it the wrong way and today I was trying to ask Caelan Doris that psychology point I was talking about before about how do you keep coming back to the well and over my question Leah Cullen started laughing scoffing and interrupted to be like were you at our last final meaning the URC final which I wasn't and you're kind of like yeah I get it and I know that he's been super defensive about this for quite a long time but surely that points to the fact that it's all because it's true and it does hurt and it's like they know that their only tariff really is winning the champions cup and it is brutal and it is galling and like we have to ask these tough questions and they've just played the game so it's difficult and whatever but i don't think that sort of reaction helps him, helps Leinster, helps the vision of Leinster to the outsiders where everyone goes, you couldn't have anything more for you and you can't get it done.

33:21So there must be a psychological or tactical problem here. Like no team in history has lost more Champions Cup finals or Heineken Cup finals than Leinster have. They had already had the record and then they've lost another one. So they've lost five. There's been three other teams that have lost three Tigers in 97 07 and 09 but they also won two titles Claremont sort of famously and Rassing have lost three each as well and won no titles and look if you're a Leinster fan you're going yeah we've won four titles so we could have had nine titles it's like yeah but the thing is that like you haven't you've had your feast years you've won your four and then you've had your famine years of five and that those connected together I know athletes look at them all separately but that is a theme of getting to the big dance and failing i'll tell you an area that they need to solve and to go back to leo cullen's point about recruiting if leo cullen could recruit at one position to strengthen the team which one would be 10 10 my word so they johnny sexen retires how do they get richie mawanga they think sam prendergaard is the man but they have a head coach who wants to base everything on defense and they don't trust him so they don't pick sam Prendergast.

34:35I mean he was in a in a polo in the stands. Yeah he wasn't even involved they pick they pick Harry Byrne who lasts 44 minutes. They hook him off. Yeah at a time when Bordeaux are down to 14 men the starting 10 gets hooked after 44 minutes. And the 10 that came on and replaced him Kieran Frauley's off to Connacht. And Frauley's off to Connacht because he chose to leave. Which they weren't very happy about. He chose to leave. They're in a mess. Lanny's taken one from them there. Yeah but you can't you know as you said after of the game, you can't win a Champions Cup if you haven't got a 10 who you trust.

35:09And so if there's any, they've got Rico Ioani, who, I think if you put Rico in that Bordeaux team, he would look like unreal, because he is physical, he's so quick, you saw flashes of it in attack, but he's so exposed defensively in that system, it's not, he doesn't get the ball enough, it wasn't, it doesn't work. If they could recruit a fly half, a world-beating fly half. Who'd you have? Sasha Feinberg, I mean, probably difficult to get him out of the storm. I don't think Razzie would let that happen. No. Unless he could work with Nina Bar. He could be a double agent. Unless he could work with Nina Bar.

35:42But you'd, I mean, right now, I don't think any of these players are available, but you'd sign a George Ford. You'd sign a Richie Mawanga, you know. Yeah. You need someone who can control a game, who's in command, like who can make things happen. And that's a real area of weakness. and I go back to my point about the recruitment you might have all these island players but if you can't bring in a superstar 10 then you're going to struggle or develop one I suppose or develop one then you're going to struggle who can tackle regularly yeah right so we've done Bordeaux we've done Leinster let's sign off as the sun's dipping below the hills in the Basque Country about Bilbao and the weekend because what a spot great city I've never been here properly before I said on the pod I got lost here once when the volcano went off in Iceland but amazing place isn't it like we're just looking over the river here and we've got like lovely orange sunset behind us the stadium to our left we've been brought a beer we've been brought a beer by a friendly colleague and a fan of the show not Batiste not one of our French fans who interrupted unless Alfie edited it out but can we get a Spanish World Cup Alex 2035 they're interested Portugal Spain possibly Italy as well an Iberian World Cup would be off the scale.

37:03And the fact, like, look, the biggest market in rugby's European market for TV and numbers of fans, we've seen, like, give me a rundown of some of the jerseys you've seen this weekend. I've seen, my nichest ones have been Montalbain and Pontypool, I think, but we've had Quinns, Tigers, Bath, loads. It's a destination. So my, I'll flip the conversation onto the EPCR of Champions Cup. The number of times we've spoken to executives of EPCR about their desire for a destination weekend, destination venue for the finals, i.e. not one of the regular Six Nations venues. Not Cardiff, Murrayfield, Twickenham, yeah.

37:41Now, they've never been to Rome, but Rome is a big destination for Six Nations travellers. It's mental they've never had a final, really. But I really think that this weekend shows, and we were talking about Newcastle previously, that's not on the regular rotation. That was a cool one, yeah. Some of the most memorable finals have been in cities that don't normally host a Six Nations game. It's so picturesque when the bin man comes past in a massive game. I would, if I'm EPCR now, I'm going, right, Bilbao, what a triumph. They had 40 ,000 in the stadium for the Challenge Cup final on Friday night.

38:17Sold out here. 50 odd. Lyon next year. Then I'm looking at Milan, Madrid. Amsterdam. Munich even. Where could we go? you can't risk like you'd the dream would be the Nou Camp or the Bernabeu somewhere like that too big I think they're too big because it'd be too much of a risk like 90, 100 ,000 is too much if you had teams who make it who don't bring what Bordeaux and Leinster brought today you're beholden to one of the well-supported teams but you can build to it you can build to it but make it make it an annual pilgrimage pilgrimage to one of the great cities in Europe which is accessible easily and put on a show and bring the bring the rugby communities of Europe into one place.

38:59It was awesome here this weekend. Lyon will be amazing next year. There's a chance to get creative and build something that's different to Six Nations. People who travel for Six Nations. You don't want it to be samey, do you? Most people who travel, let's say England fans, go to Rome. They've done it. They've been there. Go to Milan. Go to Turin. Bologna. So many. Florence. I don't know what size the ground is. So many places with 50 ,000 stadiums that you could make an amazing weekend out of it. So that's what I'd do if I was EPCR. World Cup in Iberia. Even include Italy in it, you could. Depending how big the World Cup is.

39:39But get these countries involved. It's sensational. An Iberian World Cup, Alex. Sensational. Porto, Lisbon, Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Bilbao. Yeah. Come on. Where do I sign? And people would, you know, the interest would be off the charts because people do weekends. Everyone would go home and gout. Like so much red wine and like charcuterie. So, yeah, I think that's, yeah, it's been great. It's been great. Get your tickets for Lyon because that'll be class in 12 months' time. Yeah, well, we've had a great weekend. It's been sort of 2-0 France. Montpellier went 1-0 up and then Bordeaux nodded in the 2-0.

40:19bad weekend I guess for Irish rugby but as we said through this pod France is kind of the centre of the rugby universe in Spain let's say, we've had a great weekend hopefully you enjoyed the pod and we'll be back next Monday there's Prem Action, I think I'm going to Tigers against Exeter next Sunday which is one of the ones with something punchy on it, but for now our postcard from Bilbao, we're signing at the bottom from Alex and Will with love Before you go, we just want to shine a light on the great work Allianz is doing behind the scenes to support the game we all love. We talk a lot on the Ruck about Premiership stars and England internationals, but every one of those journeys starts somewhere.

41:00Usually on a freezing morning at a local club with volunteers, hand-me-down kit and a belief that rugby can genuinely change lives. Allianz gets how important those places are, which is why they're launching a special edition of the Allianz Future Fund just for Ruck listeners. They're offering grants of£500 to£1 ,000 to help local clubs become more inclusive, more sustainable and better set up for the next generation. Whether it's new kit, safer facilities or giving young players the space to grow into tomorrow's heroes, this is a real chance to make a difference. Sign up for the Allianz Future Fund, nominate your club and help support the grassroots heart of the game.

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