From Sarries & Brive to Sale: Lozowski, Lawes & a possible England re-call

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2:06Alfie: Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times as we're hurtling towards the new season and we're out and about once again. I'm Alfie Reynolds alongside me across the desk in this little meeting room is Will Kelleher. We're liking little rooms, aren't we, at the moment? And smashing out the pods, Alfie. The ruck's back. Hardy ever left, really, did it? I like this, getting out and about and speaking to different people, seeing different people, building up to the new season. And we're in a meeting room up in the northwest. If I look to my right-hand side, sail sharks, the emblem emblazoned on the wall.

2:40Alfie: Always good to come up to this part of the world and have a chat with people. We like it. And I've come across from the Peaks District where my partner's family live and it was grim over there this morning. But it's lovely and sunny here. Always sunny in Manchester. As Michelle Orange and Alex Anderson and everyone else up here would tell you, it's always good weather up here. Yeah. Always good weather. Hey, as well, one of the teams to watch, I feel like, this season, aren't they? Sail Sharks. With the recruitment they've made, we're going to get a couple of the big hitters on that have joined.

3:08But you're looking across their team, aren't you? And you're going, you were someone who predicted they might win the title last year and they were way off it. But I remember through the last season going, but look what's coming. And now you actually, I've just been walking around the place and they've given us some lunch and stuff, lovely stuff. And you see Thomas Francis knock you out, Nicky Smith looking hard, like Courtney Laws, Alex Lazowski, a couple of the Fijian boys. You're thinking, Joe Marchand. Joe Marchand, I haven't even said him. Yeah, there's some serious talent that's joined this club and experienced winners as well.

3:43Alfie: I've definitely fallen into the trap before that when we've done pods up at a club, you come away thinking, yeah, here we go. They've smashed it. Here we go. This is going to be great. But I am wondering whether already I'm regretting my prediction to you in our preview of who's going to win the league. But I do wonder whether. So last year, I think certainly I did. Many people fell into the trap of thinking Sale have been there or thereabouts before they're eventually going to get over that final hurdle. They're going to win the league. And as we know, they had a much tougher season. I wonder whether almost the opposite is true this year, that because they struggled last year, a lot of people might be sleeping on them for how good they could potentially be because they really did struggle last year.

4:19Alfie: It wasn't great. But as you say, I think you look at their signings on paper. It is a much, much stronger squad. Yeah, for sure. And depth, isn't it? Yeah, that's something they struggled with last season where it seemed like every club lost 10, 12, 15, 17, 18 players at some point during the season. And Sale just had nothing left at certain points and front rowers going down. Like the Curry boys hardly played. Ben Curry hardly played at all the whole season, which was a shocker for him. And Luke Coundic, he broke an arm at some point against Quinns, didn't he, in April. Like there were just big players that were unavailable at key moments and then it snowballed.

5:01But yeah, the guys they've got in the building, we can literally see them because we walk around the building looking good, looking strong ahead of Bristol on the weekend.

5:08Alfie: Well, I tell you what, let's speak to two of them because they've made a lot of really interesting signings and I'm excited to get these guys on. We'll hear from Alex Ozovsky in just a moment. He's joined from Saracens. But let's start off with, I don't think it's disrespectful to everyone else to say the headline signing, certainly the one that probably raised the most eyebrows last year when they announced him. And he's one of our own. He's one of our own. Times columnist. Times columnist Courtney Laws is going to be writing for us and hopefully doing a bit of podding too. Let's hope until all the way through to the World Cup.

5:39Sure. I mean, we'll get onto it with him, but he's got to make that, hasn't he?

5:43Alfie: Let's pause that thought. Tell you what, let's hear from both of those guys starting off with Courtney Laws. All right, well, Courtney, great to have you on in person. I feel like we've done quite a few of these over Riverside and online over the last few years. So it's nice to see you in person. How are you doing? I'm very well, thank you. Yeah, it's good to be here live. How has the summer been? Has it been kind of like a mad moving back from France, getting the family settled, getting settled into new digs, all that sort of thing? Yeah, it has been actually like moving four kids and everything that that comes with, into like just sheer amounts of stuff you have to move um has been pretty pretty manic and we're also like doing up a barn that's kind of ready we've moved in builders are still in like it's it's very much over the place but yeah we we we roll with the punches is it one of those where at any point you and your wife kind of like should we have just stayed in france like what are we doing here i mean it was always an option but we're in it now you can talk renovations with Alfie because he's doing some renovations on his house what are you going for Courtney in your barn what's the vibe to be honest mate we haven't had much to do with it because the missus mum and dad are going to move into it when we leave so it's more like you do what you want okay nice we've kind of funded it for the minute they'll pay us back xyz so it's worked out quite well but essentially we feel like we're renting do you know what I mean sure yeah and farm farm life you don't strike me as the like the biggest farmer dude in the world uh no probably not definitely not farming i've got pretty bad hay fever as well so that doesn't matter but the kids absolutely love it like especially the twins are they pretty much want to be farmers when they grow up so you can live on the farm for a year happy days you're back this way for sort of emotional reasons as well as rugby because your wife's from around this way right yeah exactly she's from Nantwich which is not far from the farm so um it's good to kind of come and represent the the wife's side of the family and have a bit of a link there obviously West is here as well so I'm essentially playing under my dad Dorian West yeah yeah yeah so um that's all good fun I was going to ask you about that then Courtney but in terms of the decision making and you said obviously staying in France would have been an option kind of why sale why why why was it uh moving up to the Northwest that was the best option for you yeah I mean there was a there was a few options in terms of like I could obviously retire I could I could have potentially stayed at brief although they were cutting their budget for that season and stuff like that and then there was a couple of teams I played for in the in the Prem and it just so happened that Sale had a had a nice offer for me so it made sense and I think we'll be really competitive this year and I've really enjoyed my time and so far what parts of your game do you think you've got better at in the last couple of years uh look I don't want to I don't want to give away any kind of uh trade secrets or anything but I'm obviously still going to be um looking to be effective on the ground uh in the breakdown and and that side of it and um I was able to do quite a bit of ball carrying and that kind of stuff while I was out in France so hopefully I can continue to impose myself there and then you know I think I'm a pretty well-rounded player at this at this point like I don't really have any glaring weaknesses I'm you know even little bits like Maulian and stuff I'm you know quite capable and all the little intricacies that come with that kind of stuff so I'm looking to make a big impact in defence mainly and I know the Premier's been all about attack in the past year or two so hopefully I can have a big impact there and when you left English Rugby the last game you played was at the World Cup right oh no sorry no it was after that it was the final yeah but so two things there then the time you finished with England was that bronze game yeah so did that feel for you absolutely the end very final at the time like you were never going to play for England again yeah yeah pretty much I didn't play in that bronze game either I kind of at the time I was I was happy of course it was the semi that was your yeah I was happy with my career.

9:50I was happy with how I'd, you know, I'd give everything I had at the World Cup. And from my point of view, I didn't want to hold up the shirt, essentially. I wanted to give, you know, the players coming through the best chance to impose themselves on that position as they could for the World Cup. And, you know, well, for the foreseeable future kind of thing. And yeah, I was quite happy with how everything went. And I can't remember whether you, did you ever actually officially say, I have retired from international rugby or was it sort of assumed because you went no I did I definitely said that I said I was retiring the main main reason being like I'd spent my entire just say my kids lives playing for England and you never really settled like you're home for two months and then you're back away for a month and then you know it's just coming and going constantly so it started to get pretty difficult towards the end and the kids you know their behavior changes and stuff when you leave and I wanted to be more present and more give my kids a more stable environment to be in and so I made this decision that even though I could still pay for England I was gonna I was gonna um you know give that up to spend more time with my family and so then when you sort of un-retired and you wrote about it with us what was was a key driver of that yourself and the fact that you want to achieve more or was it because some people who've done a similar thing have almost been like i want my kids to see me play when they're a bit older is there something in your family with it as well it's not necessarily that because my kids are actually of an age like the last world cup they vividly remember that like right okay so how old are they now twins were six the last world cup and they're nearly nine now and my old and we've a 13 year old and 11 year old at this point so like they've seen it all like essentially especially now our oldest like i had her when i was 24 right so she was actually there when i won my first prem yeah yeah yeah um so it wasn't necessarily that it was more it was probably a more personal driver and it's not it wasn't that i was like oh i'm coming back to play for england i just said i'm coming back because I'm not done at rugby I'm still one of the best operators in the league I was in and why not give myself an opportunity to to play if if I am still at that level so I'm not like super bullish about it it might be that I'm not good enough to play for England anymore and I'm fine with that but it doesn't stop me you know giving my all for sale and playing as well as I can for them.

12:29And that's what I will do. And if I do play well enough, then I'll open an opportunity to step one step beyond it. Because when people have talked about it, when you've decided to come back, they've gone, oh, that's the England thing, but can he do it at 37? Does that annoy you when people use the age thing straight away and they maybe haven't seen you play as much in pre-day? I think the most annoying thing is people write me off having not seen me in two years. Then they'll just go, he's too old, he's going to be too slow, he's not been playing prem level for two years. But if you've seen me play for Breathe for the last two years, having played 40 games, and you think I'm not good enough, that's one thing.

13:11But having not seen me and just writing me off is interesting to me considering my track record of playing rugby. And also that there's some evidence that people go pretty deep. like someone in your position Alan Wynn Jones went to nearly 40 didn't he it's not just outside backs that can do it no exactly I think it's easier for someone like I don't rely completely on my speed my my main thing is my you know game intelligence being in the right place at the right time and a whole lot of other facets that come with my experience so if anything I find rugby easier now than I did when I was younger so whether you know your physicality and all that kind of things and your speed do play a part in rugby so that'll be that'll be where the difference is made i think i'd say this is probably unlikely alfie but if if steve both never calls you for the next year and a half that you're happy absolutely fine with that you go well cool didn't want me yeah yeah if i can be of use of the team in terms of play um you wouldn't just want to be there to be no like an auxiliary coach or no no exactly exactly if i if i can do what I've always done and lead by example then that's what I'll do and if I can't then no problem, you've got a good team

14:24Alfie: In terms of sale Courtney and here they're a kind of funny club like we've spoken about it plenty of times Will where I predicted them last year to finally get over the final hurdle and win the league and obviously it was a much more difficult season for them than many people certainly myself predicted how excited are you about the potential and the project that's going on here? Yeah, really excited. I mean, I think they learned a lot from last season. I think they're pretty thin on the ground in terms of the play and they didn't maybe recruit as many as they, let's say, needed. But also on top of that, they had a ton of injuries.

14:59Like a lot of them, both the Currys, like a lot of their most important players were not on the pitch when it matters. And that's so important in the Prem nowadays is to have your best players on the pitch when you need them. Like you look at Bath in the semi-final if they have Finn Russell for that game. Are they in the final? Most likely. Just little things like that. So, you know, Sale were really punished last season for, you know, not being able to keep them players on the pitch. And they learned a lot from that. And I don't feel like we're starting from scratch. Is there something, I feel like you would relish this, and quite a lot of the forwards as well, about making Sale a horrible place to come again a bit?

15:40Because like Sarri's came up here and put 85 on sale last year. That just didn't happen 10 years ago. Even if sale weren't winning the title, there was always that expectation of like, this is the worst trip in the Prem. And can I just add, before you come in, Courtney,

15:55Alfie: can I add to that, is it possible to do that with the style of rugby that we see in the Prem now in that it's become way more open and attacking? Yeah, it's quite interesting. I kind of spoke to Al about this the other day because I have noticed that the group of players here are not sure it's right to say like a different demographic but they're they're different people to like what i'd be used to at saints like the boys coming through are fundamentally different characters and they've had very different experiences and and some of that essentially it can it can be made into a positive or it can become a negative because you can if you're used to confrontation and you're fine with telling people what you think then you can get into pretty heated places with your own teammates which is obviously counterproductive but if you can focus that on the opposition then I think you you got a pretty um good foundation should we say to to be a pretty nasty team to play against so it's definitely something I think we can uh we can tap into and and and we if we get it right I think we'll be a very difficult team to bit of northern grit honesty a bit of northern grit yeah there's there's certainly a bit of that there's some there's some there's some red mists been flying around that's for sure so um yeah i can't imagine the curry boys are that bothered about that sort of stuff like no you'd be surprised yeah yeah even like even today like it's it's not everything obviously but it's certain things like boys definitely lose lose their rag around here a lot well that's sorry i meant it the other way as in like if it got heated i feel like they'd be absolutely fine with that like oh yeah yeah yeah that's yeah yeah yeah rather than but there's a there's a yeah they definitely don't shy I thought you meant because because there's such uh should we say interesting people off the pitch um yeah I didn't I didn't know where you were going with that one but no they are like on the pitch they're they're very like tenacious um and that's probably a good word for a lot of the boys around here is it cool too to link back with some old heads that you've played with for England but not necessarily for club like George Ford Joe Marchant yeah yeah Alex Kaczewski briefly yeah yeah it's been it's been class too yeah me and Lars came in at the same time and then March shortly after and then yeah it's good to be back with with 40 the twins obviously and a couple of other boys in there good Bev and Rod love old Bev and to get to know some of some of the older heads like Sy Mac and people like that's been been really cool and got some good players young players coming through tough kids and that so yeah it's it's a really cool place to be is there anything like that you have to do in terms of initiation stuff joining uh no we had a court session i did have to do a boat race and a few other bits but okay that was my own fault more than initiation that's kind of fairly i was just thinking whether it gets to a point in your career where you're like yeah i've been here i've done it like i don't need to get up and sing a song or like something like that do you know what i mean yeah there's there's certain things that i would do wouldn't like Cena songs whatever fine no worries but other stuff there's some extra initiations that I've heard about that I certainly wouldn't be take your part the Gloucester one it's interesting isn't it because they do their milk challenge yeah yeah and then you guys either have to drink all the milk or shave their head and then there are some so then you get the sort of like head shots for the season there's just bald people everywhere and for some you're a bit like that's dangerous for lads who are going to be receding might never grow back yeah and then there are some like I remember when Danny Cipriani went there he never shaved his head and I'm like I reckon he's probably not done the milk either he's just got away with it because he's Danny Cipriani so I can't do that voice Courtney will let you go but awesome to see you awesome to see you in person and looking forward to having you back in the Prem cheers mate appreciate it

19:46Alfie: so Courtney Laws departs Alex Lozowski takes his spot Alex great to have you on the Ruck how's things? good thank you yeah good training session this morning a bit of sunshine and warm weather up here so yeah can't complain and enjoying everything so far I've just mentioned that we've just had Courtney on but you guys were probably entering the building at the same time were you this summer joining up with Sale? Yeah yeah so obviously Courtney coming back from France myself moving up from Sarri's so yeah good to see Courtney again and nice to have him on my side going forward. Obviously, he's been a bit of a nightmare to play against in the past.

20:26So, yeah, looking forward to teaming up with Courtney.

20:28Alfie: I can imagine that he must be one of those guys that when you're playing against him, it's a total nightmare. So, it's really nice now that you're like, oh, thank God, we're actually on the same team. Yeah, I mean, he won't remember this because he's, you know, he's probably played so many games. But I do remember it because of my first game. It was against Saints when I was at Wasps, my first premiership game. and managed to get through the first half sort of untouched or unscathed basically. And then we were walking out for halftime and I sort of feel this presence sort of over my shoulder and it was Courtney.

20:58And he said, he sort of whispered in my ears, I'm going to get you a second half. And I was like, pretty frightening. Did he? I don't remember. I don't think he was. He didn't get me with one of his sort of trademark famous ones, but I'm sure he clipped me somehow or other. but yeah I mean as I said he probably won't remember that but I definitely do he said he sort of got away with some like new signing bits and pieces is that just because he's Courtney Laws or have you got away with it too to be fair yeah I mean there was we were in Portugal not long ago on our team training camp and there was obviously a bit of a get together at the end of the week and I think we thought we might be into something there at some point but managed to steer clear of it as well so yeah thankful for that to be honest so friendly up here yeah exactly so so what talk to us about the decision to come here because as you say you started at wasps good chunk at saris now sail but i know that you went to uni up this way didn't you in leeds was it yeah yeah so was that part of the attraction like why sail why now uh yeah i suppose um that was the hour being here and obviously i know our well from my time at saris and um always got on really well then um no he's a great coach so the opportunity to sort of team up with him again was a big one I suppose you know obviously being Saris for 10 years is it 10 years wow it was 10 years yeah so that feels like that went quickly that's yeah it went quick yeah so I think you know I suppose there when you get the chance to come up here and I think they or our and the club here value or value what I can bring probably a bit more than what Sarri's did going for the next two years.

22:48So therefore, you know, it was a good opportunity to take and hopefully I can, you know, repay the faith that they put in me to bring me here and hopefully add to what they're doing.

22:56Alfie: Is that because sale offered longer in terms of contract? Is that why you say that or other reasons for why you think they appreciate what you can do more? It wasn't, not necessarily the length of contract. I just, yeah, it was... In terms of your skill set and how to use it. Yeah, there was like, I guess, really positive conversations with Sale early on. And I guess not as positive conversation with Sarri's at that stage. So that's probably what I mean in terms of, you know, they value me a bit more. Sure. Well, a lot more up here, I suppose. So, yeah, it was just a decision I took and I'm really happy that I did it.

23:30Alfie: And is a part of those conversations, it may not be, I don't know, but I'm just thinking of for yourself, someone like Courtney, guys that have won silverware that have won the prem and for sale over the last years i know last year they struggled a bit more but they were always a team that were there or thereabouts they got to a final they lost the final is there something that you guys can bring to help them get over that final hurdle well we hope so i think that would be part of it i guess any club is sort of looking at their list of players and making decisions on what they have what they've got coming through what they need more what they need less and i think uh i get i'm guessing that just down there in Sarri's it was one of those where they felt like they didn't really need me as much anymore which is fine and I get it I hope thankfully um up here you know that as I said they felt that they needed me um more so it was uh it was good to hear that and to speak to Al and um yeah I guess now it's down to me to to add to what they've got here obviously they've got a lot of good players here and a lot of good young players too so hopefully um Courtney guys like Courtney myself Nicky Smith and Tom Francis these guys who've been around a little bit can just add to what's already going well up here Do you know where you'd like to play?

24:46Because you could kind of play most positions outside nine and you have done haven't you? For Saris and everywhere else Yeah I think nine is the only one I haven't done yet Have you literally won every number? Have you won 15 or 11? I think I was 14 a couple of times I was not 11, but we will count wing. Wing. It's the same, isn't it?

25:06Alfie: The era of the 7-1 bench, it's like absolutely ideal. Well, I mean, I'd have to start doing a few box kicks. Do you know what? I mean, I'm pretty easy on it to most of you, wherever it may be. Obviously, we've got good players across the back line in the positions that I'm more familiar with playing. Obviously, George at 10, Marius and Ricky at 12, Joe at 13. There's guys there, everyone brings something different, but at a very high level. So I think, as I've mentioned previously just in this chat, whatever I can do to add to the group and add to the team, that's what's important to me. What about your experiences up here?

25:49Because for an age, you'd laugh, but everywhere there's probably places where you go, oh, not them away. like even though you're all professional rugby players was this always one place where you go like sail on a friday night or yeah i mean like that it's like a boxing day trip yeah that's cold that's great yeah we never had a boxing day one in that but no i think uh that definitely you know you definitely over the years would know that a friday night game up here in the winter was going to be difficult and uh not necessarily one that you'd always be looking forward to but you know having said that i remember a couple of years ago i think we played as in sarah's played sail up here it might have been in april on a saturday afternoon you sort of think you know we've got a chance here um and we're on sarah's really really to win that game and ended up you know getting thumped so it's uh and that you know it was bright sunshine beautiful conditions for rugby on a saturday afternoon so I think getting sale to that point where it's a nasty place to come and play which it has been for a long long time and making sure that that's what it is like this season as well and whatever that looks like whether it's you know physicality in a set piece scrum and lineup game hopefully we can do that but we can look into playing other ways as well so we'll see what happens we mentioned Leeds before which one of the unis did you go to because there's a few aren't there yeah the university of leeds yeah yeah um is that where tom francis went so i went there with with uh with franny yeah so we were there together he was a year above me but we uh we we sort of lived across the street from each other basically nice so um so how weird is it coming back together what 15 years on would it be something yeah so i graduated in 2014 right so yeah it's a lot and he'd left the year before so 2013 we're all similar

27:43Alfie: I graduated uni in 2014 yeah me too so it's all time has gone by we're all old now yeah so I mean I've obviously seen Franny and spoken to him a lot over the years and playing against Exeter and stuff and after those finals we've played we've always like caught up and whatnot and it's been you know always good to see him but no to be fair it is really nice to spend more time with him now and be back up north together and on the same team again for the first time. I think we probably only would have played one or two games together at uni. We were all socialising and going out. Wednesday nights.

28:19But we've always gotten well and I think a few of the boys from uni are probably going to come up and watch a game at some point. Class of 2013-14. Yeah, exactly. And have a few beers. How did you do in your seasons? And I imagine it was still Bucks at that point and all that. I think it was. I think it was the early... It wasn't as well organised as what it is now, I think. The super rugby thing came afterwards, didn't it? The sort of elite eight or ten teams. I think that was after we'd gone, to be honest with you. I think back then, nowadays you see a lot of players come through the buck system, don't you?

28:51And actually go on and become professional players. So it's obviously a pathway which is getting stronger. I think myself and Franny, back then it probably wasn't as strong a programme at the universities that clubs would necessarily be wanting to take as many players on. But I think it's definitely getting stronger from what I've heard. The one thing I was thinking about Tom Francis, and this is with absolute love and admiration and respect for Sale and Manchester, but he was living in Provence last year, wasn't he? He was in Exxon Provence. This is one of the nicest places in the world. And he's left.

29:25As you say, what are you saying? We were there during the World Cup, weren't we? It's a nice part of the world. There's a square there that does three euro rosés. yeah I mean that's not bad is it do they do three Euro roses here no I've not ordered a rose there yet in Manchester no maybe not you might be asked we don't do cocktails mate

29:42Alfie: we'd all feel far too old to go to but there we go I was driving some of the countryside I was driving for on the way home it's not too bad Courtney's renovating his barn and you know not too bad where are you I'm in Didsbury West Didsbury yeah so it's a good spot it's a lively spot and good vibrant place but Franny's from up here isn't he yeah true yeah he's a northern well apparently i've heard that there's a picture of him as a kid with a francis number three sales shirt he didn't mention that to me yeah i'm waiting to see it need the evidence of that as he just said that to get an i think he did used to come down here with his old man to watch so yeah he's sort of come back home so to speak on on nice dwelling on that point last thought maybe but there's been a lot of like the marketing around here about northern grit like northern force is the new thing isn't it northern rugby matters i think was the one before that is that quite easy to connect to as a someone who's literally not from the north of england because it means something else yeah i mean it doesn't have to be that geographically you're from this part of the world but it can kind of be a button pushing thing for the team well yeah i think also if you're here then you're buying into that and yeah buying into the fabric of this part of the world this part of the country and yeah getting stuck into it and throwing yourself into it I think uh for some people yeah it may be a bit more difficult I feel as if you know having lived up here as a youngster and you know come up here when I was 18 not really knowing much about myself or anything really to be honest with you leaving home for the first time I definitely learned a lot especially even about rugby well especially about rugby in the north you know I had some really good coaches at Leeds when I think it was Leeds Tykes and that's how long ago it was but um you know and joe joe ford actually was i was playing with joe ford there and he's obviously the coach here now but i learned a lot about rugby up here so even like you say for some people it might be a bit of a tenuous link or a difficult link to make but for myself even though i'm not from here you know i feel as if i definitely learned a lot up here when i was a youngster so a bit easier to sort of settle back in it's quite it's quite cool isn't it it's quite a cool parallel just just when you said that that you know i first moved up here when I was 18 and you're like we all would have been fresh-faced and moving away and going to uni and now coming back here kind of at this stage of your career like it's quite a cool bookend I suppose yeah for sure and obviously doing it like you said with Franny and yeah I just think uh I had a great time up here when I was at that age and met some great people made some great friends know that it's a good part of the world I know it's across the was it the M62 is it yeah yeah but um is that right I don't know let's go with that um but yeah and had some unbelievable coaches some the guys that believed in me and gave me opportunities and pushed me and wanted me to do well and taught me a lot about the game so it is nice I mean yeah that's that's that's one of the reasons why I decided to come here and I'm looking forward to to cracking on well we're looking forward to uh seeing how you'll get on this season really appreciate your time on the pod and go well Have a great year.

32:51Alfie: Cheers. No worries, guys. Thanks a lot.

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36:08rugby but it's just nice links around the place and i like what he was talking about with those that aren't necessarily northern coming up here and having something to dial into because i've always felt that like the south africans who've come here have kind of got that as well the sort of fighting for something part of sale that's kind of always been there yeah i've always felt like

36:28Alfie: yeah the sale are a club that i think if you're in the building here you really buy into like i don't think it takes too much to cut buy into what they're about how they operate like i've always found quite a likable club yeah i can imagine that if you are someone that's signing and yeah he's been at sarah since 10 years and he was at wasp before that but it doesn't you don't have to be in the building here too long before you really feel a part of it and you buy into everything that the club tries to be about and also you're i think you're right on the likable side but surely as we were talking about with both of them the challenge for them is to become the most unlikable team on the field isn't it like that's what people want to see from sale which has been lost that kind of like nastiness almost legally but that kind of this is the worst place we could possibly come yeah and that try and get five points used to be a major part of of whenever they've had successful seasons wasn't it that it was really difficult to go up to the aj bell or the core pack as it is now and get a result where does courtney laws fit into that then awesome to have courtney on by the way yeah great to have him back in the prem and i just love the way he he phrases things where you know exactly what he means but he doesn't need to say it like the bit where he was saying well you know steve never calls me he's obviously got a good team and you're kind of going like yeah we get it we get it as in like if he can afford to go to the world cup without me then fair play i like that like we're gonna enjoy reading his stuff over the next year hopefully as well.

37:56Alfie: I think that's going to be a really fun narrative this season. For sure. With Courtney. What do you think off the top of your head before we've even seen him in action, World Cup next year, Courtney Law's part of the England squad? At this distance I'm going to say yes and the only thing I can see stopping him is an injury if his body finally does actually catch up with him and like as he was saying himself he finds it entertaining that people have written him off without really watching maybe all of his prodigy stuff because you kind of go like if he's if he's got the athleticism and actually he's got the intelligence so that he's not just going for everything he's not tearing around but he's picking his moments that's so valuable and he's not going to have lost the hardness is he the sort of standing up to the box and the all blacks and the french and stuff because like the least intimidated man in the world but to all of that stuff he's gone toe-to-toe with for a decade plus.

38:56And actually, he doesn't even need to start in my eyes. But if he was the 19 shirt at the World Cup, I mean, how much deeper resourced is that?

39:06Alfie: And speaking of depth as well, you look at it with sale and you say, okay, I know they've lost Dan de Pria, but you've still got the Curry boys. You then can put Courtney Laws into the mix. The depth in those back row options is really exciting. And then the guys who've been knocking around as sort of club men for ages, like Dugdale and stuff like that. and you're going, yeah, Vermeulen, Jack Vermeulen, who came up from Chiefs a couple of years ago. Yeah, again, no one's kicked the ball yet. Everyone's brilliant in pre-season, as we always say, but you just do look like there are some good ingredients here.

39:37And actually on the sort of on-field thing with Courtney, I think it's interesting how much he's talking about defence because we've seen the scores blow out wildly over the last two seasons maybe. And it sounds like one of Courtney's big roles here is going to be trying to shore up the defense. And like, obviously he's a destructive tackler, but an organizer too. And like the amount of times you remember, whether it was an England shirt or a Saints shirt, you saw someone breaking the line and you can see it happening in front of you, like a cartoon flick book being like, Courtney's going to get him, isn't he?

40:13And just that Exocet missile coming and taking something like diving at the back of their knees, take them down. He's going to be some of those. But yeah, I think a bit, who wouldn't want a bit of Courtney in the back row for your club?

40:27Alfie: Alex Lzozowski is certainly happy to be on the same team as him now. Interesting what Courtney was saying about almost, I don't know, whether you say it's a cultural difference or a bit more feisty up here in training. People get into it a bit more possibly. And it was, it pricked my ears up because he wrote about this when he wasn't in the, he wasn't coming back into the England squad. and it's one of those things that he possibly can't say as readily anymore now that he's trying to get back into Steve Borthwick's team. But he wrote a very good column a few months ago about quite a lot of the England players and how lacking in adversity their lives have been and how his experience of his life is just very different.

41:05And so he's quite used to confrontation on the field and off it. And a lot of the, let's call them the sort of public school academy boys, have just not had any of that. And so when they're met with sporting adversity, they have no coping mechanisms. That was an interesting column he wrote in the Sixth Nation. It just reminded me of that when he was talking about some of the red mist that descends up here. But also being comfortable with that. And it's like, it's nothing personal. I don't hate you, Alfie. We're just having like a professional row here that's going to get us better for beating Bristol on Saturday.

41:43I think maybe rugby has in the past been quite bad because it leans away from some of the stuff that is fundamentally rooted in the sport. And someone like Courtney, someone who would go, that's the game. You've got to be brutal and confrontational and angry and sometimes it does get a bit feisty, but that will make us a better team.

42:04Alfie: It kind of gets to what Eddie Jones got in trouble for as well when he was in the game. Possibly. About the influence of private schools. Which a broad brush way. Yeah, it was never going to go down well, was it? But yeah, I think there's a grain in there that he slightly missed. Maybe it won't open that can of worms. Finishes off, Will, sale this season. You think they're going to have a far more successful campaign than they did last year? They've kind of got to, really, haven't they? They can't make this recruitment and finish in the bottom five of the table, let's be honest. They have to be knocking on the door for the playoffs.

42:37and as we said in our preview episode the other day it's a bit like picking England teams or Lions teams it's like well because you've got them in who are you dropping out then? So it needs someone else to have a bad season but I think they won what six games last season in the Prem none back to back which was one of the more alarming stats and you feel like that's just unacceptable now like in the old days of Sale when they didn't have the budget and they knew what they were which was kind of rough and ready, dimes is dirty dozen, kind of like doing it off the back of a fag packet type stuff.

43:14It was a bit more like, okay, well, they'll make it a horrible place to come, but they're a bit limited elsewhere. But now you're going like, owner sold his business for a billion. Like they're invested. There's word that they're investing heavily in other things around the stadium perhaps and all sorts. Like this is a club that knows its place now and its future is looking much brighter and the future is orange. No, don't do that. Because of Simon and Michelle. No, anyway, get back to the real point. But basically all those excuses that they used to have, which were valid in the past, feel like they've all drifted away now.

43:50And this is a club that should really be delivering. They're spending up to the cap clearly, like look at who's in the building. So there's only a few teams that do that and they should be competing and winning the title really.

44:02Alfie: Yeah, well, I always think we could probably visit at every single club and it's really exciting ahead of a new season and what they're going to look like. Should we go to one and just be like, these guys are crap. They've absolutely lost it. Forget about it and then never be invited back. But I think sale are certainly really interesting based upon the recruitment, the ambitions of the club, how disappointing last season was. I think it's going to be quite a pivotal, as you say, in a really intriguing year. So we will leave it there. They get their campaign underway this weekend. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

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