Full strength England face 'must win' Fiji test

0:00Will Kelleher: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times, well into week two of the Nations Championship. Welcome along, I'm Alfie Reynolds and fresh from a trip to South Africa, the altitude didn't get to them, straight back into it. Will Kelleher, Charlie Morgan and Alex Lowe. Afternoon, boys. Hello, mate. How are we doing? How are we doing post-Joburg?

0:21Charlie Morgan: Nations Championship fever, yeah, well into second week and now, yeah, boiling with it. Yeah, that is why I'm sweating with it, yeah.

0:28Will Kelleher: Suver on Surrey.

0:29Alfie Reynolds: We're here, aren't we? Yeah, we are at the England training base. Cool breeze. Well, not really a cool breeze. Absolutely melting. What do we need? Some stereotypes. Coconut trees. Passing them around like rugby balls.

0:40Alex Lowe: Carve a bowl in the middle.

0:41Alfie Reynolds: Carve a bowl in the middle. All of that. We're in Fiji right now. We're Fiji week.

0:45Will Kelleher: It feels a little bit like that. We're in Fiji week. Fiji's away. A home game. England are away this weekend in Liverpool. Building up to that, you guys have been speaking to Steve Borthwick, Jamie George. which I've been speaking to Jamie George and Finn Smith. So it's kind of all systems go for England's second match of the nation's championship. And I suppose if I can start off with, I guess, your guys' trip to South Africa, like England lost to South Africa, as we expected them to. There's a lot of chat, a lot of noise, a lot of reaction off the back of that game. So what is this week, what is Fiji week all about from an England point of view?

1:19Charlie Morgan: I think being more assertive, which is what they totally failed to do in that first quarter. There's been a lot of noise coming out of England, both from Jamie George initially, Ellis Genge to the players after that. And then I think a little bit more today, although it's been tempered, has been that they are pleased with how they managed to put South Africa under pressure for small pockets of the game. And for us, and I think more pertinently for the fans, that that isn't convincing. and I think this week has to be about seeing more of a robust plan about them, seeing them impose their game on Fiji and doing it for far more than the 20 minutes they managed at Ellis Park.

2:00Alex Lowe: What surprises me, even at this distance from Saturday, is today they're talking about, Ellis Gens straight after the game talked about how South Korea didn't have an answer to England for an hour and I could put that down to the adrenaline of the moment and trying to lift up the boys But today there was a lot of talk of the first 15 minutes was unacceptable, the last 10 minutes wasn't good enough. But everything else they were pretty happy with. And their reflection on the third quarter is very different to mine.

2:31Charlie Morgan: I was going to say, odder to me because I think we left that game thinking the third quarter was actually where the Springboks went. No, come back here, we're going to maul you, we're going to take your legs.

2:40Alex Lowe: That's where they squeezed them. And I know England scored an Alex Cole's try, but it was like a little island in the middle of South African dominance. If you were to create a heat map around the game, it was sort of one small pocket of white in a sea of green because they didn't have any control. So I'm still surprised how positive they are or they're trying to be about that quarter of the game in which, as Charlie says, that's when the box really turned the screw on them. And Peter Steftutoy, when it was put to him that England felt they had the box rattled, he basically laughed them out of Johannesburg.

3:17Alex Lowe: Stared them out of Johannesburg. Stared me out of Johannesburg. Doesn't do much laughing, does he? Yeah, he stared them out. And that first 15 and the last 10 was dreadful. The second quarter, which we spoke about, they started to get going. I think there were circumstances that helped them. The box had a player in the bin. Box had gone off. But the third quarter, which they seem really positive about. I'm not, and it just reminds me of Rome, where they were really positive about things that no one else could see.

3:45Alfie Reynolds: The bit I find funny about it is the sort of time stamps of their brilliance vary quite a lot. So first up, we heard Jamie George saying minutes 10 to 40, we had them. We rattled them, was the phrase he used consistently after the game. and then you see the internal video which has gone around social media quite a lot because Ellis Gens says we had them rattle for an hour we're brilliant for an hour they had no answers they had no answers for an hour and when you look through the sort of uh timeline of the game and when the tries were scored you're like well I reckon this hour must include half time must be 15 minutes there where they're in the dressing room three points behind because there's no hour there's no 60 minute period where England have them on the ropes and they're praying for mercy which is what it has been projected as and actually we'll get onto it but this absolutely encapsulates the complete disconnect that I'm discovering between here Pennyhill Park where we are sitting and the players and what they think about themselves not all of them and the general public who like we do watch the games we're lucky enough to be at them which a lot of people aren't over the next over this championship because of the travel but they're watching this team and going I'm sorry that's not what I see and I watch a lot of rugby please please don't mug me off and tell me what I'm seeing is something else well shall we get on to that because I know you've

5:18Will Kelleher: done a piece Will where a load of people responded about their views on this England team and on Steve Borthwick in particular and we got plenty of emails to the ruck at the times.co.uk which I wanted to try and fit into the pod and this seems like a good opportunity so William emailed us and said a lot of the punditry in the run-up and after still seems to be based on an assumption that Borthwick is a new coach who is molding a plucky young group of underdogs into an outfit that might one day far in the future compete with the game's elite teams there is talk of England building and learning how they are trying to bring through new talent in problem areas and find a game plan in time for the World Cup next year.

5:52Will Kelleher: I find this totally bizarre. England are never underdogs. Behind France, they're the best resource set up on the world stage. Any talk about building should have been left behind after the first 12 months of this regime. Four mediocre years into the project, this team should be fully realised. The minimum acceptable standards should be top four in the world and they should absolutely be competitive in every single game. So there's a lot to unpack here

6:16Alfie Reynolds: and there's a lot more of this feedback, but I'll give you sort of a one-minute version of a long-held theory I've had about England's rugby players. I don't know if it's the same of the cricketers or the same of the footballers that we're watching go deep in the World Cup, but England rugby players seem to want to be underdogs at every point. I had a conversation with Ellis Genge a while ago on Bristol duty where we were asking about the changes of franchising the Prem, and he was talking about his favourite season, and this is very sort of on-brand for Ellis Genge, so maybe put it down in that category.

6:49Alfie Reynolds: His favourite season for Leicester was when they nearly got relegated and he thought that's fascinating isn't it because he's captained Leicester Tigers to win the Prem but his favourite season was when they were backs against the wall fighting against everyone else and nearly went down and had to score a couple of tries up at Newcastle to stay up. And doesn't that, again, all caveats about the way he projects himself aside project how England want to be viewed. They want to be downtrodden, oppressed, backs against the wall, two fingers up to the establishment, to everyone else, while also being the England rugby team, the bad boys, the older brother around the world.

7:29Alfie Reynolds: I find that fascinating because as soon as you get to a point as an England rugby player where you've won three or four or five or six or 11, 12 tests in a row, you are then fancied, expected to deliver and built up because that's just how it works. you're the England rugby team and all the other teams are having a pop at you and so then England rugby players I find then can't cope with that expectation which is what we saw in the Six Nations collapse in a heap and that's why we get this boom and bust thing they're not very good at being favoured or backed and so then the position that they prefer to be in is we had a pop we had a go and I don't think that wears well with fans and certainly not fans of other teams because you go they go hang on you're you're England like we all hate you because you're England you're the big bad bastard at the top of the world like there's no way you're the underdogs in any situation is

8:20Charlie Morgan: that fair that that we had a pop we had a go um was the sentiment after they lost to New Zealand at home in 2024 and that to me was the one of the most jarring pieces of messages messaging that is that I've seen come out from an England team because it followed that tour where they should have won at least one and this it's kind of a similar trend to what we've seen after the south africa game but one thing i would say is that um so either there is a bit of a disconnect between what they're saying publicly and what we're hearing or there is a schism in which i think is probably the the less likely thing is that there's a schism where one half of the side are saying this isn't good enough and the other ones are pervading this narrative that we're getting closer and I say that because Finn Smith both after the game after the game we asked him it was Will asked the question um are you sort of more pleased about how the the period that you're talking about where that get where that performance was good or are you more annoyed that the bookends of the game got away from you and he was fizzing clearly still about the start so about an hour after the game and he called the defense soft which is not a word that pros use about their teammates lightly and then this week to you Alfa he's been the one saying that we're letting the the fans down Steve Balthwick hinted at it today that there have been some firm sort of robust appraisals of parts of that performance in South Africa and you would hope that because actually that start to me they were beaten they were beaten to the punch in the air we all know about that that was that was maybe on the cards when Marcus Smith had to come in at fullback but what was kind of more galling or what should be more galling to them was that they were beaten beaten to the punch on the gain line and the breakdown and notwithstanding the fact that it's South Africa that also happened against Scotland and against Ireland and for that to become a trend should be really worrying for them can I read some more fan feedback so as you said

10:14Alfie Reynolds: Alfie we did a piece basically sort of take taking the temperature of a nation which sounds all grand but essentially it was I put out a message on social media to say please can England fans get in contact and we got an unprecedented response I think within an hour and a half I had nearly 50 emails and so like please thank you so much to everyone who emailed us at the ruckatthetimes.co.uk we used as much as we could in a piece and there's plenty we couldn't but it was very obvious that I'm glad in some ways that the things that we talk about so much on the pod are the consistent themes in the public as well and one of them is this messaging point so nicholas was one of the people that emailed and said borthwick's media soundbites where he says the same thing every time has no meaning everything feels forced and prescriptive he said i like a lot of english fans i actually hope for total hammering so that there's a replacement we talked there was another email like that the other day wasn't there while we're in south africa there's adrian no passion from him in his post-match interviews about journeys, learning, growing it's infuriating, he seems to be the only one who can't see what the fans see with being gaslit and short-changed there's a summation there there's other sort of buckets of themes there's a lot of Felix Jones and how that played out that annoys people, there's a lot of Tom and Jack Willis not being picked that annoys people

11:33Will Kelleher: a lot of questions for Richard Wigglesworth and his role as defence coach as well

11:37Alfie Reynolds: and a lack of influence, perceived influence for Lee Blackett, there's plenty on Bill Sweeney's door too but that's a big one for me that last one there's a serious amount of heat from the public about the way the team are playing and the mixed messaging and the telling of fans you're not seeing what's

11:57Will Kelleher: happening can I just pick up then and maybe in a second move us on to them what does this all mean then heading into Fiji but just to push back slightly Lewis also emailed and the kind of feel of his email was are we surprised he said I'm slightly confused why there's so much negativity around that England performance against South Africa feels a little deluded. It's an OK performance for the players England have at the moment. And I suppose none of us expected England to win in South Africa, so why is the reaction so strong off the back of the game that we all thought they would lose? Do you know what?

12:26Alfie Reynolds: For me, sorry to jump in, but for me it was because of the way that they pitched it afterwards. If they'd come in and said, I'm sorry, that was dreadful, poor, we really need to have a look at ourselves if we're losing 24 points, that would be a bit more palatable. And I feel like we've talked about this off mic, Alex. It's not all messages to the public have to be soft-soaked and have to be relentlessly positive. Andy Farrell's proved that that's wrong. Like, he calls out his Ireland team quite a lot and he's in a position of immense power there, clearly, and has the backup of results and everything else.

13:01Alfie Reynolds: But you don't have to just pull the wool and say, actually, this was really good. And I think it's the pitching of their defiance that everyone goes, well, was it?

13:12Alex Lowe: Really?

13:12Charlie Morgan: Andy Farrell is in a position of power, but he actually wasn't necessarily in a massive position of power when he said we were soft, we lacked intent after the France loss. After the France game, yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, for me, the frustration around the South Africa performance was that there wasn't, and I sort of went below the line below one of the articles this week because a reader sort of said, The Times thought that England would win that game. And I don't think that absolutely wasn't what was said. What I wrote, to stand up for myself here, is that I thought there was enough to think that they could have a really coherent performance that would trouble South Africa in more ways than they ended up doing.

13:57Charlie Morgan: And maybe that result underlines where England are, the sixth best team in the world playing against the top team in the world. But I do think that there was enough to think that they could have put together more for longer in that game, just more coherently. Just to be so comprehensively beaten to the punch in that first 20 minutes, to me, was really disappointing.

14:19Alex Lowe: I guess South Africa are the best team in the world. And one of the reasons is they are brilliant at stopping you from doing what you want to do.

14:27Alfie Reynolds: Which is why we said it's the hardest assignment.

14:29Charlie Morgan: Jamie George spoke really well about that in fairness afterwards.

14:31Alex Lowe: And it's the hardest assignment was to go to Johannesburg at altitude and try and move on from the Six Nations when realistically there was no way England could have gone into that game and tried to play the same style that they played in Paris. But that is the mindset that this team wants to have. And so to your question, Alfie, about how important this week is, I think you can see it in the team selection. There was a point around the Six Nations when Steve Borthick was seriously thinking about sending a group of players early to Argentina to give them maximum prep time to get over the flight so that they were at full bore against the Pumas next week.

15:11Alex Lowe: He decided he wouldn't do that, partly because he's restricted on numbers, because, as we've discussed, the club-country agreement is a compromise. So he could only pick 36 players. So he couldn't send eight players, say, out to South Africa without being able to bring some players in to train, and he wasn't allowed to do it. So he couldn't send them anyway. But he didn't have to pick his full team for this game. I think you'll see across, as we said on the pod the other day, you'll see across the Nations champ there'll be team changes. And I mean, the box have almost changed everybody. Ten, wasn't it?

15:46Alex Lowe: For this game against Scotland. England haven't rotated anything. They have, Steve has picked the strongest possible team he can. And he's done that because he knows he needs to win. And the pressure and the situation England are now in, he can't take any risk in resting and rotating. even though he would probably like to he's gone as strong as he as he's able to do I think which I which wouldn't have been the plan certainly wasn't the long-term plan it just for me underlines

16:17Alfie Reynolds: how important this week is can I balance some of what I said earlier and some of the readers comments because the majority were pretty critical and pretty negative but not all of them and I think that's an important thing to say that it is not a 100 % referendum on Steve Borswick against and like for example one representative of the sort of other side is Jeff who emailed us and who was quite supportive of Borthwick and he said he's a good coach England have secured a top seed for the World Cup and are favourites to reach the final possibly Borthwick will have 12 weeks to devise a plan capable of winning two very difficult matches changing the coach is not a magic solution there's proof he can do this from 2023 World Cup and the fact that England adapted quickest to the the escorting rule in 2025.

17:02Alfie Reynolds: The weaknesses are in the player pool and the system that aren't his fault. So I'm going to support the team and him. And I think quite a bit that is fair.

17:11Alex Lowe: A lot of what Jeff said is bang on. Like, Steve Borthy, I think he is a good coach. I think when he gets the team together for three months for the World Cup, he will have them in a position where they'll have a puncher's chance. And that side of the draw is getting tough, by the way, because Australia are getting better and Ireland are in it. Which would be the quarterfinal if it goes. Italy have just beaten England's Six Nations. So it's not the easy... It's the easier side of the draw, but it's still getting tougher. So Geoff is right that I think England will be at their best at the World Cup because they'll have time to put the plan together.

17:46Alex Lowe: He's also right that the system doesn't help. Now, I think Steve should be more vocal. He should be the most powerful voice in all of English rugby. and I know that he's there are elements of this club country deal that will frustrate him will curb his influence and he will believe as the England head coach he should have the power to tell like in an ideal world Northampton I want Tommy Freeman at 13 every week and Saints can't do it because they lose James Ram Freeman goes back to the wing just as an example but he doesn't have that power

18:23Alfie Reynolds: or to have more players in camp or to pick the French players

18:26Alex Lowe: Yeah, so if he wanted to pick the French players, I feel he should say that and go, I will make a case. But I don't think he wants to rock the boat. But anyway, Geoff is right. There are lots of things which are out of his control, such as the system. And the general acceptance that England, by having that system, will bob along. And they might have a good Six Nations every now and again. but there are limitations to what England will do between World Cups. England will be better at the World Cup. I'm confident that they will. It's whether or not it's the right thing for England and whether or not the patience and the belief in the English public continues through to the World Cup.

19:10Alex Lowe: It didn't with Eddie. We got to the Six Nations, it kind of dragged on to November of 22 and then the patience went.

19:18Charlie Morgan: The parallel is quite uncanny, actually.

19:21Alfie Reynolds: a lot of readers have made the same position as four years ago

19:24Charlie Morgan: Eddie Jones lost this first test of the summer window to Australia pulled it back with those two subsequent wins and then the autumn was when Courtney was captain and then they got to the autumn and they looked like a side that had run out of road it was at home so the kind of you've got the pressure then of needing to appease a Twickenham crowd and they didn't and the booze started ringing out and that was when it seemed like there was definitively nowhere to go um i guess the message there is that win this week with ensured performance win in argentina where they've won twice last summer and um scotland tees argentina around the around the pitch last weekend um so that's certainly possible and then they're at home again and they get a positive run in the autumn and he can absolutely have that run up to that you wouldn't change the coach that late so you can have that run up to the World Cup where England traditionally do well with that period of time I think where Steve Borthwick will have the control that he covets so you know it feels to me that yeah Alex used the sort of tipping point analogy in his preview for the game last weekend it feels like we're still there so this game in isolation on Saturday feels really important to me

20:40Alfie Reynolds: the 10p piece is dangling on the edge is that what we're saying and you need to give the little thing a shove

20:47Charlie Morgan: to see if it goes over. You know, when you go to a fairground. Is this a terrible analogy? That's the gap. That's what tipping point is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:54Alfie Reynolds: But, like, that's where we are, aren't we? We need some of them to drop. The 10-piece is shoved slightly closer to the precipice. If it's England fans who are emailing us, they'll probably, like, just give the... I don't see all the 10-piece come over.

21:05Alex Lowe: The problem is there's no way of pushing that 10-piece back off the edges there, in your analogy. It only ends one way.

21:11Will Kelleher: It stays there, doesn't it?

21:12Charlie Morgan: Because you win by them coming down. So that's what you want.

21:15Will Kelleher: So to lose, it has to stay where it is. And nobody watched Tipping Point. That was a metaphor. Well, we'll work on the analogy for you. But if I can try and pick it up off the back of that, is that why this weekend is so tricky, though? So, Alex, you mentioned the team news before and the team selection. Just to kind of round the nuts and bolts of that off. Ben Hardian, Tivam Rensburg and Noah Kalori could make their England debuts off the bench. I think that has probably been the headline from up here. George Klosker as well, by the way, but the focus is probably on those other two guys. Two changes to the starting 15.

21:47Will Kelleher: Henry Slade comes in at 13. Guy Pepper is in at seven. Alex, you've said that's England going basically as strong as they can at the moment. And that kind of brings me on to a point I wanted to put to you guys. Is that the challenge of Fiji? So we've just been speaking about the reaction to South Africa, the negativity around the England team, the feeling amongst a lot of the England fans, maybe not all, but a lot of them. And then I look at Fiji this weekend and think, can the team do anything to change it this weekend? Because it's Fiji. I know Fiji are a good team, but do you know what I mean?

22:15Will Kelleher: They either kind of close up and get the win and move on. They're not going to risk playing more expansively, which people want them to do.

22:23Alex Lowe: Well, Fiji are a dangerous team. Really dangerous team. No, they are, yeah. Their backline is full of threats everywhere.

22:31Alfie Reynolds: Can I just quickly pause on that and read you just some names? This is like people who sit around just naming people who played in the Barclays era of the Prem, but it's like Muntz, Wainagolo, Tuusova, Ravuvu, Reassi are all in the backline. And Botti is at eight. And Yato's at six. And you're like, oh yeah, fair enough. Franklin Marley on the bench, Peter Gus, so cooler. There's some dangerous, dangerous athletes.

22:55Charlie Morgan: Muntz being their sort of nemesis from Twickenham in 23.

22:59Alex Lowe: So Fiji are a dangerous team. I think if England, England would back themselves in the tight five to win that. So England don't want to go out and play sevens rugby. but if they are going to be true to the best qualities of this team, they're going to have to play.

23:19Alfie Reynolds: And how they want to play themselves and how they're telling everyone they want to play.

23:23Alex Lowe: Yeah, which is what I mean. They're going to have to bring the best of themselves. Otherwise, they'll be playing 10-man rugby and mauling, which will be effective. That would be effective against Fiji as well as proved. But this game, where England are, it's about more than scraping another win against Fiji. So obviously they lost to Fiji in 23, nearly lost to them again at the World Cup, nearly lost to them the other year at Twickenham, where it was a real ding-dong, and I think Fiji were that disallowed try away from really scaring England. Try under the post, and he just spilled it as he died for the line.

24:02Alex Lowe: They score that, I think England will start to remember what had happened in the past. So the last three games between these two, Fiji have won one, and England have had to dig deep to win the others. They can't assume that this will be a walk-over win, because Fiji are seriously dangerous. And again, like last week we said, I don't think England win in South Africa, but there are ways of losing. The opposite is almost the case here. I think England should be winning this game. but there are also ways of winning which portray a certain confidence in yourself and authority. If they're going to go into this to just try and scrape it, like the Italy game, they went in to try and just edge that.

24:49Alex Lowe: Get the job done. Get the job done. Smashing grabs, wasn't it? Which, after the two really poor performances, was, I guess, a step in the right direction, but then they lost it. So then you leave there going, well, what do we have from here at all? and this is a dangerous game. It's a banana-skin game. Because instinctively people underestimate Fiji, Fiji will be dangerous. But England need more than a win, if that makes sense. Last week, I think a defeat would have been palatable depending on how they went down. And in the end, I don't think it was palatable. This week, they're kind of shutting down to just try and scrape a home win, home in inverted commas, over Fiji.

25:31Alex Lowe: I don't think that's enough. I don't think it's enough for them based on all the things that they want out of themselves and you spoke to Finn Smith Alfie, I think he's so important now in this team it's amazing really that he was in the team then he was out of the team because he went on the Lions tour but I think he's been given a bit more authority now in camp I think his voice is louder than it's ever been and he's a guy who I don't think takes any shit, I think he will call it how he sees it and that's really what this team needs. I'm not convinced that enough people in camp are doing that.

26:07Alex Lowe: He will do that and I would back him to drive a level of performance but he needs everyone to go with him because it's about more than just to win, I think.

26:16Charlie Morgan: Totally, I agree with every word of that and I think that Jamie George made one point just now that was saying that some of the things that they got wrong against South Africa will be really put under the spotlight by Fiji. one of them is a breakdown Fiji are going to come out really hard at the breakdown and but that puts an emphasis on how smart they are and where they play the game so that actually might it's going to be a test of nerve for them England because they're going to have to shape the game by by kicking and that might not be super popular for the first you know 60 minutes of the game but I think I'm absolutely certain that Alex is right in that this isn't just about sort of having that yeah scraping by jobs done i think they've really got to show a bit of authority

27:01Alex Lowe: at the weekend you can't kick badly against fiji because they will slice you to death i think where the bits we saw in johannesburg that were positive for england and i was just asking the um both think about that just now but it was the variety of the kicks so kicking against fiji like on a sunny day where people have got a beer in hand they'll probably want to watch this everyone running it from their own 22 and that isn't test rugby and that would be suicide i think for it for england but that but by putting boot to ball if they can do it in a proactive way i think it can be really beneficial i'm still not convinced about how much weight they put on the contestables we have a lot of evidence now that england aren't in a position to win these contestables it didn't work in the six nations it definitely didn't work last week and as we said even when it did work they then got smoked as soon as they hit the ground and either lost it or had poor possession but some of the the smart tactical um positional angle kicks that England can do I think that will um that that will be part of their should be part of their attacking armory and shouldn't be seen as a negative um I think there's a lot of kicking England have done which is has been a negative in the past there are ways to do it that enhance what you're trying to do in

28:19Charlie Morgan: attack people don't mind volume of kicking they mind a volume of poor quality kicking i think i think people can get amnesia over kicking if it's um if it's good with purpose and if constructive stuff comes off the back of it and south africa's performance south africa of 12 teams that were in action last weekend japan kicked the most which is quite interesting in itself 35 south africa were next with 30 but there was just so much purpose about how they kicked and how and they so much of a foothold in the game because they used that smartly. And I think that's how England will be thinking.

28:51Alex Lowe: I think as an example of that is England's tests in Argentina last summer. We were talking about it, Charlie. You rolled out the stats. They kicked an enormous amount in Argentina, but it facilitated some really sharp, crisp attacking rugby. That's the balance that England want. And they haven't had that balance since. Can I

29:12Alfie Reynolds: One element I think is interesting here Is Liverpool, Everton Hill Dickinson Do you know what, I actually naively thought Hill Dickinson was like some legendary Everton player from the 50s But it turns out it's like a shipping firm Lawyers So there we go, the Hill Dickie we're off to The thing we know that triggers RFU board members RFU CEOs Is Twickenham apathy slash booing, which saw the end of Eddie Jones. It was about the results as well, but the thing that Bill Sweeney cited regularly after that was Twickenham started booing. So if England lose on Saturday, I'd be quite surprised if the Everton, Liverpool summer crowd, which will be full, I think it's going to be a really good crowd.

30:01Alfie Reynolds: It's like 55 ,000, which is a great effort. It's really cool to be in the north of England and take the game away from twickenham but i don't you're not going to get your let's be honest guinness willing november crowd corporate crowd the debentured holders who spend masses of money like commit so much of their savings who are very physically like and monetarily invested in england team it's going to be slightly more transient crowd you can imagine so if they get beaten i don't know if you're going to get quite sort of like angry reaction. It might just be people drift off into the night and go and watch the football at 10 o 'clock.

30:38Alfie Reynolds: England, Norway, more interested in that. And then the next bit of that is, let's say England win the football on Saturday. They're in a World Cup semi-final while the rugby team's in Argentina. And so the sort of lack of interest in the rugby team drops off a cliff, doesn't it? Like no one's watching the rugby team because England football could be in a World Cup final for the first time since 1966. And does that help England? Does that help Steve Borthwick if they have two shockers over the next two weeks? Like, we're all going to be there. We're still going to be writing about it. We're still going to be podding.

31:11Alfie Reynolds: Plenty of people are going to be engaged. But it's not going to be this kind of, like, national event disappointment that starts tricking people like Bill Sweeney to go, Houston, we've got a problem. Do you think there's something in that, Alex? Yeah. Or Charlie? Anyone?

31:23Alex Lowe: No, I do. I think I have a suspicion, and I think I've voiced it before, that I think that was probably part of the conversation in the review was if you accept what the system is and where England are and you back this guy to pull something together for a World Cup plus resting the captain, plus all the travel my sense from the review is that there was an element of this isn't a defining summer the problem is it can become defining if England don't win any of these games

31:58Alfie Reynolds: they've never lost seven in a row in the professional era so that's would be an

32:02Alex Lowe: unprecedented poor no it would be and i think i think it can be i think two defeats now from now on three or something would i mean that would take everyone to a place that they are if you do not want to be um England shouldn't England shouldn't be losing these games against Fiji and Argentina they shouldn't be but it doesn't mean they won't because Fiji are dangerous England are they're talking boldly but as you say it's defeat after defeat after defeat and when we're in South Africa last week I was talking to a South African journalist who was like oh England you'll beat Fiji he said and I was like of course England should beat Fiji we and for all the reasons we know how dangerous they are but England should but South Africa should have beaten Italy away in Italy in 2017 but they didn't and the reason they didn't is because there's an accumulation of everything that built up and the Flares had lost faith in the plan and the coaching and the performances were going down and down and down and they lose and that becomes the trigger point for change and Razzie comes in so these things can happen and the key for England is they have to make sure that it doesn't and the key for Borthwick is that he has to make sure that the team don't get to the point where the trigger has to be pulled

33:21Charlie Morgan: Can I just make a really quick point to follow on from Wills about how different the Hill Dickinson might be there's a lot of Northerners in this England coaching set up and they've spoken really well this week, Richard Wigglesworth on Tuesday, Steve Borthwick today about their memories of going to internationals at Huddersfield in 98 that was Richard Wigglesworth and Steve Borthwick going to Old Trafford in 97 and about the power of a new audience I guess being able to watch England in the flesh, that can be something really refreshing for them I think and they are at a point I think now where a change can be healthy but also how they need to sort of cling on to anything that can invigorate them and certainly that change of scenery can be something.

34:07Alfie Reynolds: This might be something that we're jumping in the gun on a bit because I think they will beat Fiji. I'm not sure about Argentina and it's been put into sharp relief by the fact that Wales have beaten Fiji and Scotland have hammered Argentina. So any defeat for the next two weeks is like right so you're worse than Scotland and Wales now just on that which doesn't help especially when the North are trying to bat together in this glorious Nations Championship but the thing I think a stat or talking through numbers that also puts the Borthwick regime into sharp relief he's had 46 tests now 47 is going to be on the weekend which puts him one ahead of Stuart Lancaster Stuart Lancaster won 28 games as England head coach and lost 17 at the moment Borthwick's on 26 wins and 20 defeat so he's already lost more games than Lancaster who ultimately failed to deliver Eddie Jones lost 20 games in total out of 81 tests it's just the guy he's replaced and Sir Clive Woodward had 83 tests and lost 22 and the other guy in the middle there is Jeff Cook in the 80s and 90s who won a few Grand Slams which helped but he had 50 tests and lost 13.

35:19Alfie Reynolds: So of those who've coached more England tests than Steve Borswick, he's got the worst record. And he replaced a guy that wasn't good enough with a 78 % win rate. But I think the thing that's clear here, if it continues to be this kind of middling boom and bust thing, is that actually England are happy with that. They're happy with 55%, 60 % and happy with the kind of middling stuff in between World Cups and then having a pop to the semi-finals and seeing what happens when they get to the World Cup. And I think, maybe to summarise this section, I suppose, the fundamental disappointment of the fans is that that just doesn't feel good enough for the English rugby system, that we have to wait four years for something half-decent to happen.

36:04Will Kelleher: Well, that was exactly what I was thinking when you were saying, and our emailer was saying that, well, England will get to the World Cup and they'll have time in camp and Borthwick's a good enough coach to put a plan together. and you're like, yeah, but that can't be good enough. Tickets for 200 quid in November, by the way. Do we just ignore that? You shouldn't have to wait four years every time for England to turn up at a World Cup and do all right. But that's whatever that, isn't it?

36:25Alfie Reynolds: That's what we're happy with.

36:26Will Kelleher: Well, listen, massive pressure on England this weekend against Fiji. We'll be up there in Liverpool for that game. In terms of the other matches, let's hope it's another great weekend. It was a cracking weekend, wasn't it? It was a cracking day, yeah. Cracking Saturday of rugby last weekend. Scotland taking on the box, that's going to be intriguing. Finn Russell back starting for them. Wales away to Argentina. Can they back up their win over Fiji? And then Australia-France, game of the weekend?

36:50Charlie Morgan: Jalibre 15. Read my mind, that's cool. That's one of a load of really interesting selections sort of around the slate of Nations Championship games. And Rory Hutchinson getting another go for Scotland at 13 is really cool. He was on fire for Northampton Saints and he was excellent in Argentina. getting a go against that box aggressive defence is a really interesting kind of subplot of the weekend. And yeah, it's also on the other side of it, a really good test of South Africa's alignment. We know they've got phenomenal depth, but to change 10 and do a number on Scotland would be just a real resounding message of them being number one with daylight behind them, I guess.

37:35Alfie Reynolds: How's your packing been, Alex?

37:38Alex Lowe: like so Alex is so

37:40Alfie Reynolds: to pull back the curtain a bit so it's Thursday afternoon here and we're sitting in 33 degree heat you've done me on the seating plan because you're in the shade and I'm sweating like a pig sitting in the sunshine but we're then

37:53Alex Lowe: so we're going to

37:54Alfie Reynolds: Liverpool

37:54Alex Lowe: it's going to be 30 and then we're flying from are you flying from Manchester like I am yeah

37:59Alfie Reynolds: to Madrid and then Buenos Aires or you're doing Amsterdam and Buenos Aires is winter again it's going to be

38:05Alex Lowe: 30, 31 at the weekend then it's going to be 16 in Buenos Aires there's going to be like 22 in Santiago del Estero so

38:12Alfie Reynolds: I'm all over the gap I feel like I'm massively

38:14Alex Lowe: overpacked but

38:16Alfie Reynolds: packing for all weathers but it's like when you're actually putting your bag together you're like I literally cannot bring a coke there's no way because it's so hot at home and then you get the other side and you're like I should have brought a coke like you just the killer is if you get home

38:29Charlie Morgan: and the only stuff you've got clean is really warm and then you're coming out you're melting the good thing is

38:34Alfie Reynolds: that having got back from South Africa and had like three days at home stuff was dry

38:37Will Kelleher: within like an hour of putting it on the line. Well, at least you won't be doing what I did in the Six Nations, was get up to Edinburgh in February and it's snowing. It's like, I didn't pack the Big Co for this. That is an absolute mess. It's an absolute error. Come on.

38:48Alfie Reynolds: Murray feels never dry for an England game.

38:51Will Kelleher: Yeah, well, all right, there we go. So we'll leave it there in terms of our preview of the weekend. Big focus on England. Next pod coming your way on Saturday after their match against Fiji. And then Will and Alex will be with you when you arrive in Argentina. We've got another pod on Monday. you arrive Monday morning

39:08Alfie Reynolds: I arrive Tuesday morning yeah so you'll have your studio pod Monday yeah and then Thursday you guys will be we're like pilots who have to have a different meal in the cockpit just in case someone gets food poisoning it's like don't go on the same day just in case something happens we've got to have someone on the ground at all points

39:21Alex Lowe: so the time difference doesn't help us pod wise because England will name their team on Thursday at about 8 or 9pm UK time so Alfie's got a young kid he's up at 3 in the morning anyway yeah for listeners more likely Friday

39:36Alfie Reynolds: morning pod by the time it's possibly Sunday morning for a full wrap-up because again the kickoff's late and flights and yeah on Saturday well that's all right either way doing our live

39:45Will Kelleher: admin here loads we often do this don't we have actually work out what we're doing at the end either way loads of pods coming your way the next one being on Saturday from Liverpool we'll leave it there if you want to send us an email like plenty of people have done the email address is the ruck at the times.co.uk thanks very much for listening we'll be back with you at the weekend