Gloucester, Bristol or Pollock’s hair: Who made the biggest Prem statement?

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2:06Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Coming up today, we'll look back on the opening weekend of The Prem, which had some statement away victories. We'll chat about the crazy endings between the Red Roses and the Black Ferns and the Wallabies and the Springboks. Loads to get into. Welcome along. I'm Alfie Reynolds, joined in studio today by Charlie Morgan. Morning, Charlie. Hi, pal. And Elgin Olderman. Hi, Elgin. Good morning. How are we both? Doing okay? Yeah, doing fine.

2:33Charlie: Thank you, mate. Yeah, feel every week we're in here, I feel more comfortable and more acclimatised and, yeah, ready to go. Happy days. And we saw each other, what, about 12 hours ago or something at Leicester Tigers Saracens. Yeah, you're sort of saying goodbye at the end of the game. I'm going to see you in the morning. It's comforting. Here we go. Lovely. Glad to hear it. Look, shall we kick off straight away? I mentioned everything that's coming up. Plenty to fit in as there always is. But should we start off with the Prem, the opening round of the Prem, which for me, lads, was kind of defined by three in particular statement away victories.

3:08It was a weekend of away victories, really. Northampton on Friday night beat Newcastle at home, as you would expect them to. After that, away victories. Out of Gloucester going to Sandy Park and doing a job on Exeter, Bristol going up to Manchester and beating Sale, and then Sarri's winning an absolutely crazy game that we were at yesterday against Leicester, Charlie. Which away win was the biggest statement, do we think?

3:28Charlie: I think Gloucester. But the other two were very significant as well. And I think all of these are probably, certainly those three that you mentioned. And even Basque, because I thought, I was there on Friday night and I thought Quinns were more assured than I thought they'd be given their injuries. But yeah, Gloucester were excellent. Bristol won in a way that I didn't necessarily expect. Their scrum was on the back foot and still they had enough toughness about their pack to grind that out and do really well. And then Saracens faced a hell of a lot of adversity. Winning in those places, which will, I think, get tougher to go to as the season goes on, really sets up those three sides.

4:07Yeah, it's not a good weekend, Elgin, for many of our predictions. I'll say the less about that, I can say the better. But what stood out to you from those three games in particular?

4:15Elgan: Yeah, I think it was the Gloucester win was certainly the one that was most eye-catching because Saracen's winning at Leicester, obviously a great event, but it didn't surprise me. Whereas when I saw that scoreline, Gloucester 45, Exeter 24, that did make me think, wow, that is a great start to the season for Gloucester. Stuart Barnes waxing lyrical about Dewy Lake's first performance as the club captain there. Obviously him and Jack Morgan, the two high-profile Welsh shining. The Welsh fifth region was alive and well in the Gallagher Prem this weekend with Hamer-Webb scoring a hat-trick, Lewis-Reesamit scoring two.

4:48Elgan: Leicester had an entire Welsh back row. What a weekend for the Welsh fifth region in the Gallagher Prem. Well, you mentioned Dowie Lake and Jack Morgan. We heard from them on the pod last week, but you could immediately see what they bring to that Gloucester team, right?

5:00Charlie: Yeah, I think it was a really balanced performance from Gloucester. They've kind of, it's felt like they've flitted from one season having a really strong maul, strong scrum. Then they've had loads of enterprise about how their back line have gone about things. It's one game and their fans would not get giddy because there have been false thorns before about Gloucester and sort of promise and it's kind of faded away in a heap of injuries or just inconsistency. But they've married the two really nicely. You know, that mall working again. Jack Morgan's... John Klein is another signing we need to add.

5:35Charlie: Somebody described him to me as sort of high risk, high reward at the start of the season. But the rewards are big if you can string together games. He's a big, big lump international experience. Why high risk? Just because of his injury record, I think, mainly. But, yeah, he adds weight to those, to malls, scrums, the gain line too. Jack Morgan, they used him in a really smart way, sort of hanging him in the backfield. Because that is not, as we saw, I think, across the weekend, it isn't just the initial aerial contest now that is so important. It's those ricochets and they want to get Jack Morgan around that.

6:11Charlie: So it's a revamped coaching team at Kingshome, but there are a lot of smart operators within that. Yeah, and some of the tries at Gloucester scored were fantastic.

6:21Elgan: I think the key thing with Derry Lake is that his ability around the field has never been in doubt, but people do talk about possibly his line-out thrown because he came to being a hooker a bit later on in his junior career, having been a back rower. But if that's working perfectly, which it was, then he's a sort of 9 out of 10 performer every week. And we saw that in his first appearance as club captain. Yeah, as you said, I think it's important to point out, Charlie, It is only week one, so we can't jump to too many conclusions. But certainly really encouraging signs for Gloucester. Encouraging for Bristol as well, who are coming up against a sales side that many people have predicted will do a lot better.

6:55I think they've recruited quite smartly. I mean, from a sale perspective, week one, big recruitment, expectation to get themselves back in the top four. We know the quality they've got kind of up there at Carrington and in the North West. Bit of a sucker punch.

7:09Charlie: I think so, yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. I think the disappointment was that, you know, notwithstanding the fact that they have made a lot of signings and the signings are going to be in influential positions. So you might expect a time for that to gel. And they've had a sort of weird preseason, haven't they, where they haven't had any friendlies and they've just had the Prem Cup. I think Alex Anderson made that point after the game. but still they will be gutted to lose that against the side that they've had the wood over quite significantly in previous seasons and given the fact that their scrum went to town on Bristol as well.

7:47Charlie: But I wanted to really highlight the influence of Fitz Harding. I thought he was fantastic. I know Bristol supporters think that in this era of loads of England back row options, He doesn't really get the recognition he deserves. He got an England A call-up last season, which felt like a pretty decent time coming. He's a classic late developer, but he was fantastic opposite a back row that contained Tom Curry and Courtney Laws. He was just... His tenacity around the breakdown, he's really resourceful. I think he topped the carry count as well for the game. Really, really impressive stuff.

8:25Elgan: We have made the caveat, of course, that it's only one round in. you can't make too many assumptions thus far. But I think back to that extra season a few years ago where they did sort of fall off a cliff, having been good the previous year. The start of that season was typified by several very narrow defeats where they could easily have won any of those games. So even though we are only one week in, a sense of rot can get in quite quickly where a team just gets it in their head that they struggle to get over a few games. So obviously too early to tell now, but if Sale, you know, get one or two more defeats like that is the type of thing where it can sort of set a narrative for an entire season.

8:59Elgan: So everyone will want a good response straight away from round two. Yeah, and from a Bristol point of view, like clinical team performance, wasn't it? Like really all-round, smart game plan. It was like Van Rensburg was running at George Ford every opportunity he got. They clearly spotted that as a weakness, didn't they, Charlie? And exploited it. And yeah, I think, you know, I've said on the pod that I don't think Bristol's squad is necessarily a top four squad. And I would stand by that in terms of on paper. I think you could find four more impressive looking squads on paper. But when you put in that sort of team performance, it's a great way to start their campaign.

9:34Charlie: Everybody's got injuries at the minute. Everybody seems to be going into the season making compromises somewhere. And Bristol, their depth will come under more pressure as the season goes on. But certainly their first 15 at the weekend looked really handy and really well balanced. I really like how they use Tom Jordan. it doesn't seem to matter where Tom Jordan plays, but as long as he is a second distributor to go with the 10 that they've got there, he's an excellent player. And they fed width really well for a few of their tries. Their more was working again. But yeah, as you say, the sort of flinty way that Van Rensburg went after Ford kind of typified that toughness that they brought as well.

10:19Charlie: And guys like Rubiolo is just a monster, isn't he? So having him around and having him fit for the majority of the season will make them tough to beat. Best match for the weekend on Sunday, though? We were both there. Yeah, it was a banger, wasn't it? It felt mad. It felt like I've been at that ground five years ago. I wrote this in my matchbook. I've been there five years ago for a game that Leicester won at the depth. And it was 13-12, played in real drizzle, but it was really kind of compelling and tight. That was compelling for a different reason, just because there was loads going on, it felt like.

10:52Charlie: And I think Leicester will be gutted with how, I don't think they were necessarily massively soft at the start, but Saracens were just more alert. Clinical, right? Certainly the first half, it felt to me like it was a game that Saracens just took their opportunities and took them brilliantly and Leicester didn't. And maybe in the end, plus Fergus Berg's goal kicking was very impressive. It was those small little things that meant Sarri's eventually won. Well, one conversion. There was one conversion, he got five out of six. Yeah, that's right. And then one of them, the penultimate one, he missed the last one, but the penultimate one, he was getting word in his ear from a few fans, I think, and nailed it from the touchline.

11:31Charlie: There were a lot of them from out wide. He was tidy around the pitch as well, Fergus Burke. Joe Shaw, Saracen's head coach, did media afterwards, and he said that he was just really, he said he would have been impressed whether or not they got over the line for how they managed their way through a hell of a load of setbacks at the start of the game. and you know Ollie Hartley, poor Ollie Hartley's picked up what looks like a broken army was actually informing the physio just right in front of us in the press box wasn't it really didn't look very nice and you really feel for him and then they had Tobias Elliott coming on and off with illness head injury assessment as well but what they've got is what they've got are sorry two British Norwich Lions tourists in Elliott Daly who played in numerous positions across that back line and Ben Earl who had 10 minutes at the start of his stay on the pitch as a center and Saracens actually scored in that period with Earl making some telling carries up through the middle so you could almost see it live that Saracens were problem solving their way through what was a really you know a tricky game for them notwithstanding Leicester's injuries and Joe Shaw was really careful to point out Maratoji's part in that as a captain, reinvigorated after his summer off and they just looked like they had a plan that they had a lot of conviction in Saracens, continually going for the corner even when they were down to 14 after Nikozikro's red card and they got their rewards at the end.

13:03Elgan: In terms of setting out a stall for the season, it felt like that first two minutes with the Saracens players running off Thomas Williams in sort of full-on basketball mode, but also those 20-metre rockets he can fizz out to sort of an outside centre. It felt like a real statement opening two minutes for what that Saracens team could be with him at the heart.

13:23Charlie: Definitely. And they've lost Tom Willis, who was one of the dominant forces in the league, but Barbary in a specific role, as just carrying as much as he can and hunting the shoulders of Thomas Williams, he can be a huge weapon. I think what Thomas Williams does when he's in that mood certainly, and just that inherent quality that he has, he takes pressure off the 10 as a creative force and Burke seemed to thrive with that. And yeah, they just have a really, it's, immediately Siddiqui came on and looked really influential as well, really whacking people. So they've got that fascinating blend of youth and experience.

14:01Charlie: Saracens, they will be fiercely driven with subplots like Jamie George's last, season in professional rugby. So yeah, I expect them to go deep and that was a good start for them. And as you say, I mean, we had Ben-El playing, coming on in the first half, playing 10 minutes in the back line, then shifted back into the pack. Elliot Daly moving all around the various positions across the back line. Nick Asikwe with the 20-minute red card. Did you think it was a red card, by the way? I thought it was exactly what a 20-minute card's brought in for. I thought but it was clumsy head clash. As we know, we don't judge kind of intent.

14:38Charlie: There's always far more on outcome than intent. And it felt, yeah, it felt to me that, I think there were mitigating factors in that Stewart was falling. It was kind of a messy thing, but it was felt reckless that he joined the collision in that way. And then the outcome meant that it was the right decision for me. Yeah, I was surprised by that they gave a red in the end. I thought there'd be enough mitigation that it would be a yellow or just a penalty. And then he produced a 20-minute red card and was thinking, I don't know what I'm talking about. So there we go. That's good. But I think the point being, Saracens had to come through a lot of adversity there.

15:11Like if you say you're away from home, you've just lost the lead for the first time in the game. Plus you're dealing with a 20-minute red card against a good Leicester team, as we know. They're top four last year to come through that to win, I thought was brilliant for Saracens. Really impressive. I found it interesting that Joe Shaw afterwards said that almost Mark McCall and Brendan Venter have kind of just switched positions. He said that over the years, Brendan Venter has lived just down the road from Sarri's. He'd come in four or five times a season for a week. And almost him and Mark McCall have basically just switched positions, which I thought was quite interesting.

15:43Charlie: Yeah, yeah. There's just a kind of wide network of seriously impressive rugby brains sort of driving that operation, isn't there? and Brendan Venter being the front man, I think it's really intriguing. And there will be little tweaks that are different. The personnel with the signings coming in, Max Malin's played a lot at 10 over pre-season, which is interesting to see. I should really stress that Leicester are stretched in certain positions, notably Locke and Hooker. No Oli Chesson. No Oli Chesson is huge, but Hooker, they had an emergency signing in Moley, starting in Corbin Thunder, who's been loaned, I think, from the National League, is on the bench.

16:27Charlie: He didn't come on, but that's the kind of real sign of how thin they are there. But Saracens have got sort of in their traveling reserve team that joined the reserves to warm up against the starters. They had Owen Farrell, Jack Bracken, Lucio Sinti. They've got George Martin and Jamie George are in the stand watching. They're going to get stronger and they're going to get stronger for the personnel coming back. They're going to get stronger for the time they have together as those new signings kind of gel and find their feet. They're going to be contenders. Yeah, should we just give a final word?

17:00We haven't mentioned too much because Friday night, I think everyone expected Northampton to get their campaign up and winning against Newcastle. But what did we make of the Saints? I know you were at the Stoop, Charlie, so perhaps weren't watching this game live. But Northampton, as you'd expect, got off to a five-point winning start.

17:15Charlie: Just the regularity with which their academy lads come in and look really assured and sort of personified in this case by James Pater, but it's just the latest in this mad succession of players that are doing that. and that's down to youth development, it's down to, sorry, youth, it's down to talent identification, youth development, and it's taken a while, you know, it's taken, it's been a long operation that is bearing fruit and has now got them in this, in this virtual circle. I think it was a nice start for what we, for Archie McParlin in what we expect to be a kind of significant season for him.

17:54Charlie: I'm excited to see more of Newcastle Red Bulls. I gave it some air, I'm excited to watch.

17:59Elgan: Yeah, I think we saw enough from Newcastle Red Bulls, going to DPD Stadium at Franklin's Gardens, as it's now called, first up is always going to be a difficult game. But they scored four tries, which from the perhaps outdated bonus point system is still a bonus point. But yeah, next weekend, was it Saturday night at home to Leicester? That'll be a really big game to see if this Red Bulls in their second season with a full season of preparation can really start winning more than just the odd game here and there.

18:27Charlie: We have got this far without mentioning Santiago Carreras' try at the stoop. Let's do that. I was about to say we've got this far without mentioning Henry Pollock's hair. We'll get to that in just a moment. But you're right. Try of the season already? Johan van Graan seems to think so. Try of less than 24 hours. Will Joseph's. Will Joseph's against Exeter was superb. It was amazing though. There was a lot of, there was a bit of luck involved. but just in Carreras' effort. But I think a genuine 12, if not 14 point swing in a game and just the kind of, I just, it looks sort of half genius, half real, last gasp, sort of last resort, chucking a boot up.

19:16And this was just, I know most people would have seen this by now, but scored, Quinns were on the outside. They had the overlap, looked like they were about to, if they make the pass, they score the try. Carreras is the final man. Goes for the intercept, but goes for the intercept with his boot. Kicks the ball up into the air. Collects it. Runs the field. 14-point swing. Like, incredible skill in execution.

19:36Charlie: Madness. You often, as you know, when you're at a game, you can gauge the live reaction. And you know, sometimes there's that palpable noise that feels like a gasp. And so I felt like half the stadium did that. There was sort of another portion of the stadium that were laughing in sheer disbelief. I'm pretty sure there was a good portion that was sort of booing, thinking, that can't be legal. How does that even happen? But that kind of just, yeah, all that together suggests that it was just a remarkable piece of skill.

20:08Elgan: And I hope it inspires a lot of other people to give it a go, because the interceptions now are such a high risk, high reward thing, because basically, if you don't catch it in this day and age, you are yellow carded in it. So hopefully we see more players just thrusting a leg at a pass.

20:25Charlie: If only because they're going to look pretty dumb if they get sold a dummy doing that. I think that would be great. That would be brilliant. Yeah, that's what I want to see. I agree with you, Elgin. I was thinking about it. It makes actual total sense because if you go for an intercept now and don't get it, there is a great chance that you're going to the bin if you knock it on. I actually think it goes too far. We had one in the match. We were at Charlie where they quickly checked where the Freddie Stewart was in position to intercept it. And luckily they ruled that he was. it wasn't and but you just don't know these days so in a sense i mean it's an amazing bit of skill you're not going to execute it too often but it makes a lot of sense kind of going for it in that way i mentioned henry pollock's hair we don't have to spend too much time on that i found it interesting i find it quite telling the one thing i will say on henry pollock's hair he's gone for the corn roast by the way people haven't seen um the one thing interesting about it and i think that it's quite revealing is how it how he and eddie hearn have made it into it might not be your thing you might think this is naff it's contrived get rid of it yuck whatever the way in which they have been able to create it into a thing in the first place, I think is quite impressive.

21:24And off the back of that, Charlie, you can talk about the hair, but if you don't want to too much, Henry Pollock, 400k a year, new contract confirmed last week, which is a big bit of business for Northampton.

21:33Charlie: Yeah, an announce at the start of the week where the Premiership's ramping up to a game on the Friday all worked out very nicely timing-wise, didn't it? But I think that is the thing that is fascinating to me, how it has become a thing. And, you know, we have talked about amplifying superstars and how we do that and maybe what that player's personality has to be like so that it is possible within the, confines is the wrong word, within the sort of parameters of a game that is the ultimate team game. And I think what it keeps coming back to is the point that Phil Dowson keeps stressing is that it evaporates so quickly if a player stops backing up with performances.

22:24Charlie: But the nature of rugby is such that performances can be subtly hardworking and still be really good and effective. And Henry Pollock just has to keep remembering that. And I think he will because his game, he played well against Newcastle, but I think he's always at his best when he lets the big moments sort of come to him and they will naturally be more likely to happen in say the last 10 minutes of each half because his engine is so remarkable but he did that against Newcastle and sometimes in his position it's going to be about carries in in crowded traffic it's going to be about hitting rucks it's going to be about making a tackle and putting time in the tackle to to to disrupt a team that's attacking and I think at Saints they're in a position where they can keep him just so steadfastly focused on that because that's what's going to get him to where he wants to be.

23:16I wonder what the commercial team are going to do because they were selling out of the headbands in the shop. I don't know how you monetised that. He had one on, didn't he? True, he did see. But it's with the blonde locks flowing. So I don't know how it impacts things like that. I mean, in a sense, Elgin, final word on this, but you're worth what someone is willing to pay you. So on the one hand, he is worth it. But there was part of me that thinks Henry Pollock is a brilliant player. Is he worth£400 ,000 a year? That much of your salary cap? He's earning a heck of a lot more than most players in his position and most players his age.

23:51Elgan: I think if you took away the hairdo, and I don't mean shaving off his hair, I think if you ignored all of the stuff going on around it, which is actually quite easy to do, you can just watch the 18 minutes on the field. We saw again with that break he made out of the 22 where he just, some of his dynamism, his ability to break through tackles in a way that very few flank forwards, any forwards you see do. I think just if you consider his output for Northampton Saints, then yes, I think he is worth that. Yeah, OK. Well, you know the game's truly gone when I turn up next week with Cormos for the ruck.

24:22But we can dream. We can dream. Let's take a quick break here. Up next, we will look back on the crazy ending between the Red Roses and New Zealand and also the crazy ending between the Wallabies and the Springboks. We'll be right back.

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26:29How do we truly navigate life's hardest moments? I'm Julia Samuel, psychotherapist and best-selling author In my podcast Therapy Works I open the therapy room for candid, insightful conversations with people known and unknown Discover what my guests have learnt and failed to learn about resilience and human connection Listen to Therapy Works today wherever you get your podcasts

27:02Welcome back. Let's round off the pod then, Charlie Elgin, starting with the Red Roses. Elgin, that's where you were. England 26, New Zealand 19, but an amazing match and an amazing ending with England snatching it right at the end.

27:17Elgan: Yeah, it was exactly the sort of occasion that this new revamped WXV Global Series wanted to create, which is we've now had two games in a row where the Red Roses have been properly tested. And as you say, they're almost two weeks in a row, they've drawn, they've been unable to win. They remain 41 games unbeaten, but so close again to a team finally toppling the Red Roses. I think on the whistle, one set of statistics said that England attempted 310 tackles in the game and the Black Ferns attempted 109. So that gives a flavour of what the game was like in terms of New Zealand just hammering at England.

27:51Elgan: And this new defence that has had Sean Edwards in camp for this first week as a consultant working with Sarah Hunter really put through its paces. and, as is usually the case, came up with all the answers that were required. And so just to recap for people that didn't catch the ending, clock in the red or England have a penalty to win it. They miss it. New Zealand then run it out from between their own sticks. England intercepts it. They score a try. Twickenham goes crazy. I mean, should New Zealand have kicked it out? I guess that's the question. Should they have taken the draw against England?

28:23Elgan: I don't think they should have. I think they made it pretty clear afterwards that they'd come there to win. I don't think drawing against England is something that particularly excites the Black Ferns as a nation, as a rugby team. If anyone in the world could do it from 90 metres out, it's them, possibly France as well. But they didn't have a huge amount of time to think about it because whereas the previous week where a very similar thing happened with Canada, they had a scrum to think about what they were doing. And the head coach, Kevin Rue, even got a message on to say, kick it out. You've been under the pump for so long.

28:54Elgan: Kick the ball off. Take the draw. there's just no chance of us getting downfield. The Black Ferns, it was Zoe Harrison from about 42 metres out. The kick came up well short and size four and a half ball. She was speaking afterwards about how the sweet spot is a bit smaller on the size four and a half. So maybe been a size five, she might have got it over, but it came up short. And then, yeah, about two, three phases later, it was Harrison herself running up from the backfield to cover the defence on the wing. And she just picked off Amy DiPlessis' pass and in the space for a minute, She'd gone from missing the match winner to scoring the match winning try at the bottom.

29:28Elgan: I think it was the right decision. Of course, it didn't work out. But for the Black Ferns, whether they drew 19-0 or lost 26-19, they still wouldn't have won. And that's how they viewed it, I think.

29:38Charlie: Can I make a confession at this point? I went on a busman's holiday with our five-year-old and our three-year-old. Nice. And we were sitting above where that try was scored. But we left at about 65 minutes for an emergency donut run. And we left the stadium at that point. Having had an amazing time, the lads really enjoyed it, but we sort of wanted to leave while they were still enjoying it, rather than sort of, as anybody who's been to any event with young kids will know that it conspired all very badly. But yeah, we left before that happened, but unfortunately missed an amazing ending, but it was a great occasion.

30:12Charlie: It was just, it was fascinating by the way New Zealand went at England, as you said, Elg, and how they attacked with loads of intuition. It was fantastic to watch.

30:21Elgan: It was a lot of releasing the ball and going quickly, the type of thing we've seen Japan do down the years, wasn't it? A lot of carrying up the middle. Perhaps people talk about the Black Ferns, they say they love unstructured, flinging it wide, but actually they just tried to hammer England quickly up the middle. And it did bear fruit, but not quite enough fruit. Well, hang on now. So if my main question to Elgin was, was it the correct decision for the Black Ferns to kick it out? Was it the correct decision from the Morgan family to prioritise doughnuts over the ending? You made the right call in the pressure moment?

30:49Charlie: The five-year-old enjoyed the donuts enough to suggest yes, I think. We'll watch the highlights at some point.

30:56Elgan: You take some learnings from the review. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Secondary donut spas. It's all part of the process. Trust the process. I mean, look, in terms of the WXV, if I get us back onto the action on the pitch, we spoke a couple of weeks ago of the new WXV Global Series. Is this going to be a good thing? Is this going to be a bad thing? What do we take from the last two England games? a draw against Canada, snatching a win right at the death against New Zealand. All right, they're still unbeaten. It's not like England have lost two games here, is it? They're still unbeaten. But what does it tell us about where the women's game is in terms of the international landscape?

31:32Elgan: I think it's been a really good three weeks for the women's international game because even England have made it clear, you know, we don't get to play Canada and New Zealand that often. They haven't played New Zealand since October 2024. They've got two more games coming up against Canada next month now, both in Canada as well as a trip to USA, who've looked good these last few weeks as well. So in terms of putting together the best teams of the world on the field, I think it's been an undoubted success. I think the RFU would tell you that they are irritated that those games haven't been on a TV channel.

32:03Elgan: They've been on iPlayer. They've been showing some old films on BBC Two instead, which have made some headlines over the past two or three weeks. But the fact that we've seen Canada and New Zealand really give the Red Roses a good go. we've seen the Wallaroos almost beat France as well we've seen Wales beat South Africa with their best performance in several years so there've been a lot of really encouraging results USA winning an island as well a week ago so I think in terms of a really competitive ecosystem of women's international rugby which is what it really needs to develop from all the great things the Red Roses have done sort of dragging women's rugby forward what it needs for the next phase now is proper competition.

32:46Elgan: And we've seen a few glimpses of that in the last few weeks. Is it about Canada and New Zealand getting better or England dropping off? Maybe a combination of both of those things. I think it's Canada and New Zealand getting better. I think Canada just performed much better at Sandy Park than they had in the World Cup final at Twickenham last September when they lost 33-13. I think the Black Ferns had dropped off in recent years. they've lost at home to England, France and Canada. They've lost to Ireland on neutral territory. They are the team that through 30 years of history of women's rugby are usually the dominant team.

33:20Elgan: Obviously, the Red Roses have changed that in recent years. The Blackfurns look like they are getting their act together a bit more just in time for three tests against the British and Irish Lions women. Inaugural tour next year as well. So I think it is the case of the chasing pack improving. We've also seen France beating Canada last weekend as well. So a few glimpses as well that possibly France might be filling that gap as well because they've sort of dropped down to fourth in the world beyond those big three. But certainly the big four, the big one and the chasing three haven't changed, but it feels like the chasing three have got a bit nearer to the big one.

33:51Yeah, I'm glad you point out the Black Ferns ahead of that Lions series. I think that is really encouraging signs from what we've seen from them. Let's finish the pod off. Australia 42, South Africa 38, Charlie. We talk about crazy endings. Well, this was another one, right? Australia, I think it was about 10 minutes remaining, just over. They led 40-17. And then by the end of the game, they were playing it with 11 and were having to try and keep South Africa out to make sure they held on to win. Unbelievable ending.

34:18Charlie: Wild. As wild as you'll ever see from a game at any level, almost. Yeah, the kind of flurry of yellow cards. It was a little bit actually reminiscent of England's collapse in Argentina. It reminded me, it made me quite excited for what England and Australia are going to serve up and how many players are going to be on the pitch of that game in November. But I think it also showed, prior to that mad ending, probably showed that South Africa were punished a little bit for how much they rotated. They've clearly had a really arduous schedule with rugby's greatest rivalry as well. And I think it just showed that it's quite a dull point to make, but the margins are fine enough in international rugby that upsets can still happen.

34:55Charlie: And Australia have definitely got a bit of impetus under Les Kiss. that's Les Kiss, they're smart. Ryan Lonergan brought a really good contestable kicking game. They've got real star power. Max Jorgensen has just got this remarkable knack of conjuring X-Factor moments. We know all about Lenny Ketow from his spell at Exeter and what he's been doing in the international game over the last couple of years. They're going to be a handful at their home World Cup. Do you think? Yeah, absolutely. They've got New Zealand in the pool stages and a win there sets them up really nicely. Probably don't want to win that though, do they?

35:34Charlie: Yeah, to go on to that side. Go on the wrong side of the draw. Well, they get South Africa again at home. So, yeah, I think if you were being a little bit pessimistic for the rest of the world's chances, it might be a wake-up call for South Africa just to keep them grounded and keep them building. But it certainly makes me excited about what's to come in November. Box second team, though, you could say. Look, I know South Africa's second team is strong, but nonetheless... Look at their bench. Look at how they finished that game. That bench was a contingency. And the players that they had on there, albeit they were still missing in few, but the players that they had on the bench at the end of that game, they would have backed themselves to close out any international against any side.

36:14Charlie: And they couldn't quite do it, despite this absolutely nuts ending. So, yeah, I just think... I think the Wallabies can be absolutely proud of getting through that game, however nuts it was.

36:27Elgan: I think it's fair to say as well that beating a Springboks 1.5 slash second 15, which is what it was, that still feels like you've beaten the third or fourth best team in the world. So I think it places the Wallabies not necessarily as car sign contenders, but I think it really puts them in amongst the chasing pack, who we position now, I suppose, as the All Blacks and the Springboks. the Wallabies have shown that on a big occasion and they've got two Bledisloe Cup matches coming up against the All Blacks next month which will be fascinating but in terms of those teams like Ireland, England, Scotland I suppose France who are kind of on the boundary between the top two and the rest it looks like the Wallabies now will certainly give them all a good go and competing well at that level.

37:09What's going on with the communication between officials at the moment though? We can finish on this point of Andrea Piardi the referee having to finish the game by chatting to the TMO on a mobile phone. Like to report a shambles.

37:21Charlie: I feel sorry for the refs because they're the ones who, they know it looks ridiculous. They are aware of the wider context of fans being pretty fed up of all the interventions from the TMO anyway, but they are aware that they are big calls that they've got to get right and the technology is letting them down and it can't happen at a World Cup. So if it's a case of getting it out the way now, then great. Jeez, and it looks village, doesn't it? That's the thing. It just looks so village to just get... Well, I'd actually... Yeah, a kind of confession. Another confession here. I'd turned it on to see the second half and see the mad ending and saw...

37:59Charlie: No, we've not got this again, have we? It's like, yeah, it's a real shame. Well, I suppose the serious point here is it's a year to go into the World Cup. You have to figure those things out. We saw it, obviously, in the game in Baltimore between the Box and the All Blacks. We've seen it here in Perth, which is going to host the opening game of the World Cup. The funniest side of things and what I thought about is, I'll tell you what, the internet provider is probably pretty proud, aren't they, in that stadium? Is it the sponsorship opportunities for the TMO intervention brought to you by? Don't give anybody any ideas because that will become a deliberate thing.

38:31Charlie: Yeah, well, we don't want that. But two crazy games, I think we can agree, between the Red Roses and then the Wallabies and the Springboks. Gents, we'll leave it there. Do we know what your weeks look like yet? Too early to ask maybe, Charlie? Do you know where you're heading? What are you doing? Sunday I'll be watching Saracens again. So that'll be really intriguing against Sale, who need something. They need some sort of improvement, even if they really didn't get on with that fixture last season, did they, to say the least. But yeah, that'll be tracking Brendan Venter.

39:04Elgan: Elgin? From a work perspective, I don't know as it stands, but I know that on Saturday I'll be down at Old Deer Park singing at a London Welsh game, which is where I spend most of my greatest ever Saturdays. Well, regular listeners know already that if Elgin's not writing about sport, then you're probably part of it. Singing nearby. Singing nearby, exactly. We'll leave it there. Appreciate all of you who have watched on YouTube and who have listened to the pod. If you want to send us an email, the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. We'll be back with you next week.

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