Goodbye from Australia - Lions tour review

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1:14Will Kelleher: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and the Sunday Times. The Lions tour is over and it is time for our roundup. Final reflections on the series and where the behemoth that is the modern Lions finds itself following the 2025 tour. I'm Alfie Reynolds with Will Kelleher, Alex Lowe, Owen Slott and gents. We were hoping for this podcast to be rooftop, Harbour Bridge one side, Sydney Opera House the other. We are in the Glenmore Hotel, but we have had to scamper inside.

1:47Alex Lowe: It is still raining in Sydney. It's ridiculous, isn't it?

1:50Alfie Reynolds: I actually haven't seen anything like this, Slotty. You've been to Sydney quite a lot through decades of doing this job, but has it ever been as ridiculous as this, the weather?

1:58Owen Slot: No, I just feel Sydney's weather sun shines.

2:02Alex Lowe: I just don't get it. It was pretty bad. The end of the 03 World Cup, it rained quite a lot, didn't it? That semi-final against France was all played in the rain. Johnny's dropped goals. Johnny's dropped goals. It was all in the rain. And it rained for the final two, I seem to remember.

2:14Owen Slot: You see, that's Alex for you. See, I've retrofitted. We've been talking about retrofitting. I've retrofitted Sunshine over the whole of the 03 World Cup, even though it was a really tough hard experience.

2:27Alfie Reynolds: Some games had a roof on them, didn't they? Yeah. Telstra Dome, which is now the Marvel.

2:31Alex Lowe: England's 16-man game against some.

2:34Alfie Reynolds: Oh, Dan Luger going on.

2:35Owen Slot: The 03 final was really wet. Yes. That was sopping.

2:40Alex Lowe: I think the semi was even wetter.

2:42Owen Slot: The semi was dreadful, yeah.

2:43Alfie Reynolds: I love that we've started our Lions Roundup and we're doing weather in Sydney and the 03 World Cup already.

2:50Owen Slot: I mean, I don't know if we're interesting anyone at the moment, but wettest lines game of all time.

2:57Alfie Reynolds: That's got to be...

2:58Owen Slot: It's got to be Saturday, although... I'm thinking first test 05 in Christchurch. Come on, Alex, you were there.

3:06Alex Lowe: I wasn't, actually. I did the first half of that tour. I've been to something Alex hasn't been to. I did the first half of that tour and then didn't... Are you retrofitting him?

3:15Owen Slot: Because you could see where it was going.

3:17Alex Lowe: Yes, yeah. There were other colleagues who had to wait until half-time in the second test to book their flights home. I was gone before the first test. Wellington 17 was very wet. Wellington 17, I was going to say, yeah. Second game. Yeah, that was wet.

3:30Alfie Reynolds: But that was nothing like a Saturday night. No. It was absurd. There's some amazing... So people get... It'll be on the Times by now. But Mark Aspland, our great friend and colleague, does his Unseen Gallery that we've actually contributed to. They are guest editors, no, guest contributors. Contributors, yeah. Photographers, I guess. But Mark, who's actually an award-winning photographer, has taken some amazing shots. So go and find them. My favourite one is where genuine sheets of white rain. And he's got this brilliant sort of long-exposure-y type picture, which is definitely not the technical term for it, but we could actually see it.

4:05Alfie Reynolds: And it almost looks like chain mail coming down through the sky. So go on Mark's Unseen Gallery.

4:10Will Kelleher: Well, I've really enjoyed the fact that in the opening three, four minutes of the pod, which we bill as the journalist rugby podcast, the big discussion point so far is the wettest Lions game ever, which I think is quite good. I like photography.

4:21Alex Lowe: So what was your picture?

4:22Alfie Reynolds: My picture, I had two actually. I sort of half cheated. One was of you.

4:27Alex Lowe: Well, you're welcome.

4:28Alfie Reynolds: Because we were sitting in the press box and you had a man coming down with like a window cleaning squeegee and you were looking quite happy that he was cleaning the view for you. I love that.

4:36Owen Slot: I might add that to my Alex Lowe gallery that I have on my phone. I know that's a bit weird, but I just shared that.

4:42Alfie Reynolds: And then the second one was a lovely one of us three, me, you, and Slotty. Team Times, yeah. Team Times. It was just taken by a fan to sort of sign off.

4:50Alex Lowe: It was a game that lent itself to amateur photographers coming up with a shot or two.

4:55Alfie Reynolds: Yeah. Definitely. And a bit of an eye was there, wasn't it? Yeah. Like, we talked a lot on... I don't know, why don't we try and talk about the Lions Tour here now? Go on, transition. We've said on this trip before, maybe after the first test, have we really had a kind of Lions moment that we would talk about on if we redid the Red Lions series or something like that and I actually think we've ended up with a couple haven't we because the MCG the last minute try the clear out the incident that's the moment isn't it that's the moment maybe you'd put in third place the double Finn Russell pass one lovely offload to Dan Sheehan second one the big loopy ball over to see only two of Palotto at the Suncorp which is basically one of the only real memorable moments of that first test and then just the sort of absolute glorious chaos of the third game then not the rugby itself almost but just the whole madness of the lightning storm I mean we won't have had a Lions test match disrupted by lightning ever so I think we've ended up with some sort of really memorable bits in some ways weirdly haven't we on the series the question that I had for you

6:01Will Kelleher: guys now that we've had a little bit more time to reflect on I suppose the third test and then where that leaves the three test series with the Lions winning it 2-1 and the question that I have seen asked in a few quarters and we touched on this a little bit actually in the early hours at the stadium yesterday of how that one game changes your whole perception of the series in a lot of ways but were the Lions lucky is that a total rewrite of history and what we saw earlier on in the series?

6:29Alex Lowe: They weren't lucky. It's been painted over here as Ian Payton, our mate, is calling it the asterisk tour because it's basically a series decided by the Jack Morgan decision, which is all nice and fun. But I think they need to rewind to the first test and ask why the Wallabies failed to turn up and therefore failed to get their planning right and their selection right for the first test. Because if the Wallabies turn up for that, then the series is very different. And then you can start quibbling about 50-50 penalty decisions made in the last minute.

6:58Will Kelleher: And even, sorry to interrupt, even in the second test that all the focus was on the Jack Morgan clear-out, they also gave up a massive lead for it to be the biggest comeback in Lions history.

7:07Alex Lowe: It was a record Lions comeback and the biggest lead the Wallabies had given up in like 100 years.

7:13Alfie Reynolds: I mean, 18 points. You can't be sacrificing 18 points. And they would say, oh, well, look, that try shouldn't have been given. But they put themselves in a horrendous position by sacrificing that lead, didn't they?

7:22Alex Lowe: And you've got to remember that the Lions didn't exist as a rugby team eight weeks ago. And Australia might not be, they haven't come to a country who are reigning world champions, as Lions often have in the professional era, where the challenge is much stiffer. The Wallabies were a six in the world, but the Lions have got to a level where they've beaten them within six weeks. So the very nature of a Lions Tour means that they're up against it. I think the challenge this time was easier than it has been, because Australia didn't come to the party until they picked Will Skelton and he started throwing his weight around and throwing Lions players around.

8:01Alex Lowe: They weren't lucky.

8:02Owen Slot: It's just the way the tours panned out is we're left with questions because we don't know what might have been if Australia had been different.

8:09Alfie Reynolds: Isn't some of our disappointment maybe watching the Lions, the fact that they pitched themselves as this all-dominant 3-0, greatest Lions team ever thing, and they sort of didn't achieve it and maybe we all came here going look this isn't not a very good Australian team so the Lions should really put them away and they've kind of got to the point where not only have they not put them away but maybe Australia feeling really unlucky they didn't win the series and then if you flip that you kind of go imagine if Australia had won this series this would go down as an utter disaster of a Lions tour and it hasn't because they've won and then on the flip side you go the other bit that we're pleased about is that Australia have turned up and it took them until the first half of the second test to actually perform and then they were very good in the wet way better in the lines in the third test but again we came out here going we're all a bit worried about Australia as a rugby country because of NRL because of AFL because of everything else and I think we're going home going okay Australia all right they've got lots of problems but at least we're going to have a good world cup here and the team has clearly got something there hopefully they've captured a few new people and they're not just going to suddenly disappear off the face of the earth which was maybe a bit of a doomsday scenario but a worry

9:26Owen Slot: wasn't it before we came out here yeah so i was just thinking of the um parallel universe that you've just sort of suggested in another world where the penalty goes against jack morgan and he's sent to prison or whatever for his clear out how do we think the third test goes would it have

9:42Alfie Reynolds: been different or who would have changed Andy Farrell told us that the team would have been no different for one all or two nil but it would have been fascinating wouldn't it how they would have actually looked at some of the guys that were on their last legs and whether they wanted

9:56Owen Slot: to refresh it even more I don't know well they wouldn't have got smashed on Saturday Sunday last weekend would they but I don't know if that had an impact they said we'd always built in

10:04Alfie Reynolds: some sort of partying yeah a bit like Warren Gatland always did and they didn't quite go off to Noosa and go off to Queenstown like he did on his trips and safaris in 0-9.

10:13Alex Lowe: If you're 1-0 and in the test team, you know you've got the decider coming up. There is a difference. I mean, how much of that Lions performance was impacted by elements that could have happened in a decider anyway? Losing both your starting locks, which then impacts what you can do off the bench. Obviously, you went for a 6-2 and also lost Tommy Freeman. You take the 6-2 gamble and you lose a wing, then you're stretched. so then when you need to take off Bundyaki, which they obviously did you can't but then if you go 5-3 and you lose both your locks you're in trouble so whichever way they'd have turned they were in trouble just through bad luck which I think had a big impact on their ability to win that game and then the break just allows Tupou to play longer it allows Will Skelton to play longer at a time when the Lions have lost the physical guy they picked in James Ryan to be opposite him.

11:09Alex Lowe: You know, the game...

11:11Alfie Reynolds: And both the line-out callers in Eto 'ji and Ryan.

11:14Alex Lowe: Yeah, and that's big. The line-out was a disaster. Would the line-out have been a disaster if this was a decider? Well, maybe if you've taken off, if you've lost your chief line-out caller. Both of them. Yeah, so it's a hypothetical. You can't really answer it, but there was a lot of things that went against them, I think, which didn't help. Plus, they also didn't make very sensible decisions either.

11:34Owen Slot: I also think there was quite a few things that went for them yeah like Dan Sheen staying on the pitch you know massively by the time this podcast goes out we're going to know what his penalty might be

11:46Alfie Reynolds: yeah

11:46Alex Lowe: no you're right on that too that is true yeah

11:49Owen Slot: I haven't watched it enough but Jack Morgan's try there was quite a lot of consternation about whether he really got that down that they didn't spend any time looking at that

11:58Will Kelleher: I back the referee there just because he was in such a good place so I think I've seen people say the same thing and that they haven't seen a replay with it down but i would back the referee because of his position that i think he must have seen it to be so confident in it yeah

12:12Alfie Reynolds: where where i think and maybe lucky is the wrong word and fortunate is just a basically a synonym isn't it so maybe that's not the right word either but the lions basically faced no real adversity until saturday uh mcg mcg but like yeah okay it's a bit like through just a record comeback required

12:31Owen Slot: But until the MCG, they had none. Correct.

12:35Alfie Reynolds: Look, the other caveat is that they lost some informed players. They lost Elliot Daly, who was playing very well, and they lost Thomas Williams, who was playing very well. It might have been that neither ended up in the 23 anyway, but I would have suspected Daly almost certainly would have done somewhere. And then Gary Ringrose probably would have played all three tests if he hadn't have done the right thing and removed himself from concussion. But they basically made the tour itself, like the actual touring bit of it apart from the fact that the travel was difficult and they're playing quite often wasn't difficult was it like it wasn't a challenge they weren't getting beaten

13:08Alex Lowe: up everywhere they went yeah which is why they want to change it for next time and certainly for next time in australia but we saw ben calvary the chief exec today he wants to change it for 2029

13:18Will Kelleher: well that brings it on maybe quite nicely if rather than than just looking at the series looking at the tour more generally and there were discussions about australia's viability which i don't think have materialised in the way that we feared they might do if we got a test series that wasn't competitive at all but are there still question marks over what a tour to Australia looks like not saying the Lions shouldn't come here but in particular in relation to the tour games what they do to I suppose make it more competitive but also I think more than that of making it more engaging I don't think it's just about competitive matches I think it's the sort of matches that people back home really want to tune into at 11am in the morning and the public

13:56Alex Lowe: over here get more engaged in definitely and and it's on the agenda already the lions do deals one tour at a time so while there is a rotor system technically they're not tied to it so ben calvary the chief exec wouldn't 100 say of course we'll be back in australia in 12 years time because he doesn't know what the lie of the land might be in it's sort of six years time eight years time when they start to plan the tour but all things being equal you would expect the lions to be coming here in 12 years time and i think that's the right thing agreed and i've always thought that was the right thing but i've also always thought that the the format of the tour has to be different you only have to listen back to the red lions series that we did about 89 where that that was the first full-blown Lions tour of Australia since 1899 and there had been no tour in 86 because of apartheid South Africa had been the one-off game so there were very few players who'd experienced a proper Lions tour they were coming to Australia with fears that the tour matches would not be competitive enough and that happened in 1989 and it happened in 2001 and 13 and again now they've changed some of the games slightly so we haven't had 100 points put on anyone but routinely it's been 50 points they nilled the australia new zealand combination in adelaide the lions haven't had the tests that they want and as you say alfie it therefore means it hasn't cut through from what from everything we obviously we're in the bubble here we're right in the middle of it everything that happens with the lions we're writing about it every day for 50 days feels important but I my sense is that from back home the rugby fans are a bit like oh what you know am I going to take the morning off work to watch them play Western Force and just rack up 50 the atmospheres in the grounds haven't been great either so therefore how do you sell the tickets and they're very very aware of it to the point where they're even looking at the New Zealand tour in four years time where New Zealand have a much stronger provincial game than Australia do But it's not as strong, I would suggest, as it used to be when Super Rugby existed in its pomp.

16:09Alex Lowe: Now it's Super Rugby Pacific. Those players don't play against South African players anymore. You hear a lot about how that changes the kind of rugby they're used to. Ben Calvary is talking about reshaping the tour in 2029 to include international opposition. That could be the First Nations and Pacifica team brought back together because they provided the best, most passionate opposition that the Lions face outside of the Test matches. They could go and play in New Zealand. Same concept. But he's also talking about Japan or Fiji. He didn't mention them, but with the right investment, Samoa could come in, Tonga could come in.

16:51Alex Lowe: Teams for whom these games would mean a lot and would raise the standard of opposition.

16:56Will Kelleher: it'd be absolutely awesome wouldn't it it's a fine balance though isn't it like i know on this tour the tour games we were here every week kind of like come on come on get going where's the where's the challenge where's the jeopardy but it's a tough balance the lines isn't it because even what you're saying there alex imagine a scenario all of a sudden where wednesday it's tonga saturday it's fiji next wednesday it's samoa all of a sudden you're looking at me like whoa whoa whoa

17:18Alex Lowe: i didn't chuck them all in i think there's a balance but the lines had nothing i mean we were talking about the second string played the pacifica game and we're like whoa they're actually that's that's a fight for something here and then after the the second test at the mcg our conversation and the the piece i i wrote was basically now we have an idea what the actual character of this team is and it would took until the game where they won the series for them to be put under any adversity and for us to go all that they talk about about fighting for the badge and fighting for one another, being the best teammate they can be, which is one of their slogans, that has actually hit home.

17:59Alex Lowe: Because regardless of the quality of the opposite, if you're 18 points down at the MCG and the MCG is bouncing, it's not easy to come back from there. And the way they did it, bang, bang before halftime, then they come and win it. Impressive. Impressive. But we didn't know anything about the character of this team until you got to that far. You rewind to 2017, when they beat the Crusaders, as Sam Warburton has talked about they beat the Crusaders 12-3 limited the all-dominant all-conquering Crusaders to three points at home which it was unheard of and you're like that is a performance and then they lost they lost to the Blues but you're like they were properly being tested and even in 21 so you were out there they had totally different challenges of the team being changed on the bus on the way to games and players having to wear the wrong jerseys because they weren't even supposed to be playing and all of that sort of stuff this has been a cruise through Australia until half an hour into the second test.

18:53Owen Slot: I think that's why, one of the reasons why it feels unsatisfactory is because we only got proper rugby in the last two games of the Tour. And this conversation is all about just trying to work out how good were they, how do we assess them. And I kind of think, in my head, I think you're probably saying, you'd love to know what they do against the All Blacks, or how would they have done against the Springboks? It just feels like we haven't got enough, we haven't seen enough.

19:20Alex Lowe: Because you also don't know, like, they got to this certain point that was enough to win the series by one point on aggregate. Two tests to one. But had they had Sterner tests along the way, they would have, you don't know how that team would have developed. What type of rugby they'd have started playing because of the opposition. They were, Andy Farrell was, in the end, openly saying, we're basically setting ourselves some performance parameters within each game. They took one penalty shot at goal in the Brumbies game because it got to within, like, ten points. It was just a bit too close. So they're like, let's kick a goal, and then we'll go back to doing what we were doing.

19:54Alex Lowe: If you go into these games having to set yourselves these little challenges, then the test isn't enough. And what you don't know is that... I don't think this Lions team would stack very highly against the Lions teams in the professional era. But they also haven't needed to stack very highly. Put them through the ringer in a few tour games, might bring something else out of them, might play the rugby differently.

20:18Alfie Reynolds: you just don't know do you and the lines is always a huge balance isn't it so another thing that we mentioned on our pod the one that everyone's just listened to hopefully before this was the player welfare thing and all these players that have played more than 30 games so the lines tour is not going to be more than 10 matches we know that and 10 feels like the sort of absolute peak palatable number at the moment and if you start doing fewer than that you start going oh well that's not really a proper Lions tour. So if you look at New Zealand then, there's probably one or two slots for different games.

20:52Alfie Reynolds: So they've said today to us, they'll always do one at home now, because it makes them an absolute massive amount of money.

21:00Alex Lowe: It's one at home, unless they get a better offer to go somewhere else. Yeah, to go to Qatar or something like that. It doesn't have to be Qatar, North America.

21:07Alfie Reynolds: It will be at some point. Who sponsors the tour this year?

21:11Alex Lowe: But it doesn't have to be. No. Well, there is big money on offer in North America and other places.

21:16Alfie Reynolds: So let's say 29, they play an international team, a test team, either at home or on the way down in America or somewhere else. That's one opportunity. Then they've got the Mario Blacks, which they're not going to get rid of that game. They've got the Crusaders, the Blues, the Highlanders, the Hurricanes and the Chiefs. So that's now seven matches and then three tests. That's ten. so there's only really one opportunity there to be creative unless you get rid of the Mario Blacks and then you'd actually look and say well someone like the Moana Pacifica or the Fiji Druid would probably like a go wouldn't they?

21:54Alfie Reynolds: and Moana at the moment have got Arlie Saveria in their team and that would be pretty cool to see him play the Lions I don't think you need to be creative for New Zealand

22:02Owen Slot: because it's there it's ready to happen it's flipping good challenging rugby with Kiwis desperate to make a mark and kill a lion if they possibly can.

22:13Alex Lowe: The other element that Calvary was talking about is the commercial side of it, which, as we see, is rampant with the Lions. He wants to build relationships with other nations beyond the traditional three. So there could be a commercial reason for saying to the New Zealand Rugby Union, well, we won't play your weakest super rugby team. We'll replace them with Japan or we'll replace them with Fiji. Argentina. Or Argentina. do you know what I mean and you know and that so those kind of elements are starting to come into it as well so it's not just let's go and play all the super rugby teams from New Zealand en masse he's suggesting to us that there could be commercial value for the Lions in changing the format and importing some could they almost have

23:00Alfie Reynolds: like a you almost have to like qualify to play the Lions so they're going to play only four of your super rugby teams for example easily yeah so the fifth one if you finish low in whatever the Super Rugby season they count, because they're going to have to organise it a little bit more in advance than the one that's just finished, then sorry, you don't get your Lions game. So there's almost an incentive on your sort of home competition there as well, to be like, win your chance to play against the Lions. Maybe they could build something like that in there, and do things on world ranking perhaps as well.

23:28Alfie Reynolds: But the difficulty with that is that there'll be a tour where they go, ah no, the wrong teams ended up in the seeding spot, and we don't really want to go and actually play them. Do you know what I mean? But I think lots of our, we've been having these conversations for the whole tour, haven't we, Alex and Slotty and Alfie, that quite a lot of all of what we're talking about is going back to the sort of big unwieldy question of what is the Lions? What does it actually mean? What does it represent? And we were told today that there are four KPIs, which someone like Willie John McBride might be going, KPIs?

24:03Alfie Reynolds: It's the Lions, you're joking. But look, we understand that this is a business now. and a couple of them are sort of rugby results and commercial stuff which they will tell us we've won on the on the field and we've made a massive amount of money they've basically saved Australian rugby from oblivion by making them a huge amount of cash so tick tick the other two are sort of more intangible aren't they their kind of connection and how the tour sort of goes as a whole thing and they think they've done that bit brilliantly and we would have a slightly different

24:34Will Kelleher: view of that wouldn't we well on that point so this for the next question i was going to ask you guys which is incredibly general but i was interested to know what your reaction was and where it kind of takes it because it covers absolutely everything which was has this been

24:46Owen Slot: a successful lions tour on the field that's such yes it's a great question isn't it i think it's

24:52Alfie Reynolds: the sixth series that the lines have won ever so on that front yes but as we're sort of saying the Lions isn't just about winning a test series

25:03Alex Lowe: so according to Ben Calvary who we saw today obviously we've seen them they've won the series they've won 8 out of 10 matches overall that is a success they wanted to win 3-0 they wanted to be considered the greatest ever it would have felt uncomfortable for them to be sitting alongside the Invincibles because they're not in that class in my opinion but it's not to be sniffed at to win a test series as a Lions team As I said earlier, they didn't even exist eight weeks ago. Seven weeks ago when they actually won the thing. So on the field, it has to be considered a success. Ben Calverly will tell us that they are going to generate record profits from this tour.

25:45Alex Lowe: Now, I'm not entirely sure why the Lions has to be a profit-driven enterprise, because it's a thing that's owned by the four unions. So once you divide any money...

25:53Owen Slot: Because the four unions want more money to pay that... I mean, it's part of their business, isn't it? Well, of course.

25:57Alex Lowe: But once you divide the profit by four, I don't, personally, I'm not sure it's enough to sacrifice what we're going to come on to talk about.

26:05Will Kelleher: Can I just ask really quickly, sorry, Alex, I know I've interrupted you mid-flow there, because Calverley said the same thing to me when I said, I know commercialism is key and it's about making money. And he said, well, yeah, but the money goes back into the game. So does that money, does the profit of the Lions just go evenly split between the four home unions? And then it's up to them what they do with it? Yes. Okay.

26:23Alex Lowe: They'll make the profit, it'll go back to the unions and then get filtered down into the game. But I don't think we're talking about life-changing money for the RFU. But anyway, record profits, success. One of their KPIs is social media engagement. Basically because there's no one here, or hardly anyone here who's under 35. So the way that they're experiencing the Lions is watching it on TV, listening to the RUC, reading the Times, and following it on Instagram and TikTok. it's kind of like of course the record numbers because social media is just this booming thing

26:56Alfie Reynolds: it's a bit like when the urc added to the snafigan teams and then said they've got record tv numbers you're like oh that's a bit like cricket going we've got india and they're huge and the last

27:04Alex Lowe: one is like is a bit more sort of hearts and minds of community and that's the thing that i think you can't really measure they would say we've done a hundred engagements on this trip and we would go yeah but how many of them actually like how many also how many how many people have you annoyed along the way you know to counterbalance that which we could certainly name a handful each so how do you measure it in all of those measurements they they would argue it has been

27:32Owen Slot: a success i've got a frame of measurement which which you actually that's wrong you can't measure it but overall i'm thinking how much do people love the lions at the end of this right at the end of this tour because we go into this tour and we're all going flip it's the lions we're so excited about this and and we are and i think in four years time will people be going oh it was so

27:55Alfie Reynolds: great last time i'm wondering about some of the players was they sort of someone like ben l

28:01Owen Slot: and they're like wow i'm talking about kids back home or audiences or or my mates who who love rugby but they're still going on about oh there's so many irishmen in this team and and i i always think the thing about the lions tours is is you forget about nationalities don't you and so many people here have fallen in love with jack morgan haven't they but there's still like this kind of like oh there's so many irishmen in this team and i feel that people haven't really fallen in love with the team i'm not sure that kids back at home are like desperate to watch i feel it shouldn't be on Sky Sports, it should be on Terrestrial.

28:36Owen Slot: I just think so many people should be going, that was the best sporting thing of the year by a mile.

28:42Alex Lowe: Interestingly in Australia it's a protected Yes, correct. On stand sports Yeah. And it has to be on free to air as well. Yeah, it's got to be on free to air.

28:50Will Kelleher: But only the test series, wasn't it, I think. Yeah, the test matches, yeah.

28:54Alex Lowe: It doesn't inflict the tour matches on everyone. Yeah, they'll be switching off after that.

29:00Alfie Reynolds: Two bits on that slotting. So I've got, And look, we all have our little straw polls of people we talk to who are just mates and all that, and family and stuff like that. And number one, my family have tuned into probably all of the games, and they love the Rucks, so hello to Tim and Kate and Emma. But they have always been texting after the games being a bit like, pfft, not much in that. And actually did that on Saturday night, and I was kind of going, oh, we really loved it, that was amazing and really fun, but maybe doesn't come across on the telly just how crazy it all was. MCG was awesome.

29:32Alfie Reynolds: We loved the MCG, didn't we? It was brilliant. The atmosphere was amazing. 90 ,000 people there. A great finish. Controversy. Incredible stadium. And then I think we all felt Saturday was great because it was just so weird and chaotic and the Aussies stood up and it was all niggly and fun. But first test was a real damp squib. And some of that was just because the Lions battered them. But it felt massively low-key until it was almost too late, a lot of this, hasn't it?

29:58Will Kelleher: But interestingly, I agree with the first test, the match we saw. but TalkSport asked me to do my five highlights of the tour which could be anything and actually coming in second for me quite randomly, maybe I surprised myself was the build-up to the game in Brisbane. Yeah, Caxton Street. Caxton Street, walking around Brisbane because it's a slightly smaller, well it's a much smaller CBD than Melbourne or Sydney so everything. And they've got all the pubs up the road to the ground and all that. And everything was more concentrated and that for me, in fact I messaged you guys on the morning of that test and I said I am so excited about tonight and the game didn't live up to it but actually it's interesting when we ask this has this been a successful tour and maybe people that are just watching at home will say the lions won two one yes happy days but there's still clearly just that such a love for it and such an interest and maybe a lot of this stuff that we talk about and contemplate doesn't really matter to many other people this is there's also

30:51Alex Lowe: slottie asked a question about do people love it have they loved it i think an australia tour is a harder it requires it to go to an extra level to feel massive yeah just because it doesn't it doesn't have the history for example so in four years time we'll have had a world cup you know england ireland could be world champions could be the whole thing that you know we don't know what the state of the northern homes for game will be in in four years time but this a lot of these players will be on that tour in four years time so they'll be going back again they know what it means but it's also to New Zealand which carries with it this history once in 71 like there are epic tours two in particular three if you include 17 so much history there and and it's so damn hard to beat them at home and all that and so I think I do think that once you come away from the Lions you don't think about it for three years and then you come into the season we'll have just had a world cup come into a season that ends with an alliance of new zealand it will be it'll feel massive again so so then correct it will do here's my next segue point on this

32:01Alfie Reynolds: is it has mattered a lot to lots of the people who are here and record numbers of people have come and lots of them will have saved up because they weren't able to go in 21 and have had an amazing time i'm sure and are probably flying home hopefully listen to this going wow i don't need to drink another beer for a bit or like maybe get some vegetables and i've had a brilliant time but what I find interesting is in that four-year period this is a rugby challenge it's not necessarily just a Lions challenge but the Lions pitches itself as the most special bit of rugby so it's probably their challenge maybe more than anything else is that like how do you retain the special bit and how do you get people who are much younger than me much younger than all of us to in four years time be like I must watch the Lions whatever channel it's on or how can I get and there's a There's two bits to that.

32:47Alfie Reynolds: There's the bit which is, is it interesting enough to people who are currently like 15? To your kids, for example, who are teenagers. And the other element to it is it's so expensive to get out here. And like, we've been here for the whole time. And the Lions fans are, on average, nearly 60. All of them.

33:09Owen Slot: Can we just say there's nothing wrong with being nearly 60? Carry on. Can we also hold that?

33:14Alfie Reynolds: But that's an interesting challenge for rugby, isn't it? To be like, okay, so in four years' time, eight years' time, 12 years' time, that lot are not coming on these trips. So who are the people who are currently 12 who will?

33:25Owen Slot: Yeah, no, all that is banging where they should be concerned. So they're not selling it to young people. They're so bound up in commercials, and they've worked out that they can make really expensive packages and sell them because there are enough people who have the money and the time to do it. They don't have to worry about the younger market. and at some point that'll come back and haunt them because I don't think it looks like, if you're looking at the stands and you're in your 20s or something, you like rugby, I don't think you're saying to me, it's, wow, we've got to do that in four years' time because this looks the best thing ever.

33:58Will Kelleher: Can I just jump in there? The producer in me, my head is spinning because all of a sudden the running order I had in my mind is all over the place because this has got to me to one of the emails that I was going to save for later but we've been brought on to it anyway. James emailed us at theruckatthetimes.co.uk saying, hi chaps, he really enjoys the pod each week. Just a thought on the demographic of Lions fans. You may have seen from being out there that the average Lions fan is a retiree. From my experience in 2005 and 2009, this was very much the case with a smattering of gap year students.

34:31Will Kelleher: That was him in 2005. And those crazy enough, aged 25 to 40, who'd spend thousands and their precious days of annual leave to go from summer to the midst of winter. anyway my point is long term the lions may need to think about a their pricing model and or b their tour locations to continue to have viable tours the current boomer generation have had generous pension plans but the baton is not being passed on to other generations etc etc so i suppose first of all no like fair play to all of the people that have paid so much money to come out here and cover the tour but I thought James's email was a really interesting one because it is a

35:12Alex Lowe: topic of discussion that we have had out here so he's he's laid it out absolutely accurately but those group of 40 year olds who aren't mad enough to take all their leave and pay they're the ones who will come next time because they're missing out now because they've got families and they're working so there will always be another generation of people who want to come and fair play to all the people we've seen out here who saved up and come and they're everywhere, they're wearing their lion's gear, I don't know how much lion's gear do people have, they wear it every day It's mad that isn't it, what a laundry bill

35:45Alfie Reynolds: that is by the way

35:47Alex Lowe: It's brilliant, I love seeing them all here 40 ,000 have come fantastic, they are of a similar age, I don't and I asked Calvary this today and he basically told me where to go but back in 05 the Barmy army who were But at that point, just starting in cricket to run sort of tour packages for backpackers, people who are quite happy to go and stay in a hostel or an Airbnb, or not even an Airbnb in those days. An actual B &B. An actual B &B. Just do it on the cheap. But help get some tickets. But get tickets in the area of the ground with all the like-minded people. It's going to be lively, raucous.

36:28Alex Lowe: Yeah, bar in the evening. And have that kind of a trip. And in 2005, I remember there being quite, maybe because I knew one of the guys who ran the Barmy Army set up, and I remember there being more than a smattering in 05. I remember it slightly differently to James. And the Barmy Army were trying to get in, and they were getting an allocation, and they were having, I guess, the fan zone thing, get all the like-minded backpacker Lions fans together of that sort of age. And they were squeezed out, because you can sell the same ticket to someone who's going to pay to stay in a five-star hotel. And I really, I think it'd be amazing.

37:07Alex Lowe: So I'm thinking, you mentioned my son. My oldest son's 14. And most of the messages I've had from him since I've been out here is, is Henry Pollock playing on Saturday? Why isn't Henry Pollock in the team? Can Henry Pollock get minutes in the third test? No, it's not like the Football World Cup. They can't, they're not all on the bench. You're either in the 23 or not, and he's not. And he's like, oh. so if Henry Pollock is captain in four years time Oscar's probably here on a backpacker job but I do think there's a way of engaging the kids they grab onto superstars nowadays more than ever before so we're back to the conversation about how do you create superstars how are the players that the current teenagers want to watch but if there are these superstars how do you get them out here and I know that there's a ballot for ticket only packages but if there was a Barmy Army style way of following the Lions where you had a section in the ground and you were staying in a hostel or a two star it's absolutely made for gap year student backpackers South Africa as well after that would be amazing then I think you'd have just a brilliant balance almost like you'd have a generation who want to come and do it backpackery and they'll fall in love with it because the community, the camaraderie, the Caxton Street it's just brilliant it is brilliant it's just people who from everywhere and it's and it's we talk about the team come together from four nations and you know you'll be in caxton street you'll be outside the ground and you've got fans from local rugby clubs all across britain and ireland who come together they sing each other songs and it's just and it's a brilliant brilliant thing and it shouldn't it should be open to the backpackers the students because they'd add life to it they're the ones who will then follow it through and i just don't know why that doesn't

38:54Will Kelleher: happen i'll tell you what it's always going to be one of those pods when you're trying to round up a whole lions tour and where the lions are that we could go on and on and on let's have a quick break here i've got a few more questions to put to you both on the lions and the wallabies and then we'll wrap up hannah prevett here from the business podcast join me for a special episode

39:14Owen Slot: with PWC UK's Marco Amitrano and WPP's Michael Froelich, recorded at the Greater Together Conference in Los Angeles, California. We'll discuss how partnerships between the US and the UK can drive economic growth and shape the future of transatlantic collaboration. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. While every other channel is fighting for your customers' attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears, and when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising.

39:48Owen Slot: It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. Acast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, post-read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

40:10Will Kelleher: OK, so look, chaps, we've spoken a fair bit about the Lions and where they are. And it's partly our jobs when you're out here and covering it to call it how you see it and where you think the Lions are at the moment. And sometimes there's a negative element to that. I've got to say, I've absolutely loved the last seven weeks. And this is my first Lions tour, but it's been a complete privilege to cover it. I spoke earlier about Brisbane and that first real sense of the sea of red, Caxton Street. I've been fortunate that for TalkSport, I've been pitch side for all three test matches and being pitch side in between the Lions bench and the Wallabies bench when Hugo Keenan scored that winning try with 90 ,000.

40:48Will Kelleher: It was just amazing. There are always going to be question marks and room for improvement with the Lions. But it is also still just an amazing thing to cover.

40:58Alex Lowe: Yeah, but anything that we've just discussed in the first half of this pod comes from a place of, it's the one thing, I think, in Britain and Irish rugby that everybody can agree that they love. It is unique in world sport. There are no teams formed of four nations into one that go on tour the other side of the world and have to form something competitive in six weeks.

41:23Alfie Reynolds: Well, they basically got rid of the rugby league version, didn't they? And they sort of tried to start it up again. It didn't really work.

41:28Alex Lowe: Like, we love it. And so any comment about this, you know, we're worried about this element or we think they've got the balance wrong or their priorities wrong is all from a place of nobody wants this to... Nobody wants to lose the Lions. Nobody wants the Lions to lose what it is that makes them so special. Because it's... 40 ,000 people don't travel around the world to come to games in the absolute pouring rain in Sydney without it being unique. It's amazing. It's extraordinary. and you've experienced it for the first time, Malfi, and I'm delighted that you've loved it. And so people might have listened to the first half and gone, oh, it's just like six weeks, seven weeks in.

42:08Alex Lowe: They're just finding, it all comes from a place of we, you know, when we were talking then about how will people feel about the Lions going to New Zealand, I was already thinking in my head, it's going to be massive again.

42:18Will Kelleher: that's what I mean. A lot of the kind of, when you look at some of the problems and things and they are, it's still worthy of talking about, but we will still get to New Zealand and it's still going

42:27Alfie Reynolds: to be absolutely huge and i i maybe world cups do this a bit as well but i've always felt felt like the four-year thing it was sort of like a maybe it's lovely in some ways and sometimes it's a bit depressing but it bookmarks your life a bit these trips doesn't it like you go oh sorry no five i was doing that oh nine i was doing that 13 i remember having my 21st birthday 17 i was amazing it was there like that was unnecessary 21 was covid 25 we were here like it's a lovely and like heard fans talking about this themselves about the way that they've sort of grown with the lions and i don't know people who propose and get married and have kids and bring them back and all that sort of stuff like it's it's a really lovely thing that exists in our sport that we all just want to protect and go this could be even better and even more brilliant and we could all just go

43:16Will Kelleher: around the world going how brilliant is rugby union so i found it almost a strangely kind of emotional thing in the last day as well it might be partly because i got four hours sleep last night by the time that I've finished editing the pod from Sydney. But this amazing thing that we've been following for seven weeks and is pretty intense with team announcement, game, travel, all these cities around the country, and then the test series itself. And then all of a sudden, we get to this morning and it's like, oh, hang on a minute, there's not as many people in red and everyone's leaving. And some of our colleagues have started to head home to the airport.

43:47Will Kelleher: It's like, oh, right, it's ending.

43:48Alfie Reynolds: I was a bit late getting here because I was literally packing my bag. and I was like oh you're not going until 3 o 'clock tomorrow I know but I'm a bit weird about these things but I just wanted to get it organised

43:59Alex Lowe: 3 o 'clock tomorrow and you're late here packing

44:03Alfie Reynolds: yeah because I wanted to lay out what I want to wear tomorrow we're having our last little paddle session hang on what's wrong with you

44:09Alex Lowe: for 7 weeks we're still learning new stuff

44:10Alfie Reynolds: we're playing paddle at like 9 in the morning and then I'm going to have to check out at 11 so I'm just going to miss all the windows for doing this stuff

44:17Will Kelleher: hang on I've got to ask them what's the aeroplane outfit if that's been laid out outfit. If that's what you've been laid out. Give us some tips, Will. So I've got my new Sydney

44:26Alfie Reynolds: Rockets Club hoodie. Lovely stuff. I've got some cool travel trousers that are a bit more comfortable than jeans. I've got spare t-shirt because I'm changing in Singapore. This is all brilliant content. What's Will wearing on the plane home? We started with the weather and now we've descended to this.

44:44Alex Lowe: Your listening parents will be delighted that you've got yourself on the plane. And it's all washed clean.

44:49Will Kelleher: Shall we finish off on a word on our hosts, on the Wallabies and on Australia? Can Australia win the World Cup in two years, based upon, I suppose in particular, the final two tests in this series?

45:02Alfie Reynolds: I mean, I would say no. I'm not saying they're terrible, but what, four teams have ever won the World Cup?

45:09Will Kelleher: OK, let me rephrase... The three Southern Hemisphere sides in England? Let me rephrase my question then and put it in the context of what this Lions tour has often been the context of, of saving Australian rugby, which is always a bigger process than just the three test series. But can Australia have a run at that World Cup that galvanises and engages the Australian public in a really important way, in the way in which, by the way, the women's football team massively did for the Women's World Cup a couple of years ago?

45:35Alfie Reynolds: I think this is a sort of a yes, but type answer because it's sort of like, yes, but the issue in Australia that we've talked about a lot on this podcast is that there's so many competing codes that are basically the same athletes. and we've seen first hand on this trip when they lose some of their biggest players they can't do it

45:54Owen Slot: the thing is they have no depth do they? exactly that's the challenge if you look at their team you could you could make arguments for a number of contenders to go in a world team so you you say Skelton would be a contender Valentini you say could be a contender Tupu if he plays like he did for about 20 minutes yesterday could be Suley they've got some in two years time at Suralini Tom Wright's a really good player yeah exactly I love Tom Wright what a player

46:22Alfie Reynolds: and Dylan Peach on Saturday was awesome as well wasn't he Jorgensen's a good footballer

46:30Owen Slot: well there we go we've got a good sevens team no they've got some great players but they haven't got the depth at this point

46:36Alfie Reynolds: and I think that's this sort of existential crisis thing is an issue but I feel like they've probably staved it off on a couple of levels because they've had the big injection into the veins of literally just masses of cash that saved them from bankruptcy which is often what Lions do for the Southern Hemisphere and also they've hopefully captured a few people on the way and gone look at that Wallabies team who fought for you who fought for that gold jersey who put one on the Lions who won a match here but they're just always going to be

47:08Alex Lowe: battling against all these doesn't save them because they go to well-organized codes they lose both the game is there everyone will forget and then the other issue with them

47:15Alfie Reynolds: I suppose is that they're changing their coach in a year's time aren't they which is all a bit sort of not very satisfying and a little bit messy with Joe Schmidt leaving and Les Kiss coming in

47:25Alex Lowe: the time scale is tight but having had this injection of cash it means it's one of the reasons they haven't had to go down the private equity route because they were hosting the Lions and then hosting the World Cup but I would love them to invest some of that money in proper talent ID I've been hearing a lot of chat about NRL clubs getting into schools at 16, 15.

47:45Alfie Reynolds: And French clubs as well.

47:47Alex Lowe: Well, and you've got the other issue of Australian schoolboys going to Toulouse and La Rochelle as 17, 18-year-olds. That is a problem too. But if you've got the money, or a bit more money, you just have to make sure that the next Joseph Soeliti doesn't... You don't have to then pay 1.5 million a year to get him back from the NRL. pay him 500 grand a year from the off and keep him out of the NRL and that's that's where I would look to go now try and secure a couple of superstar youngsters each each year and try and build

48:23Will Kelleher: something yeah I just wonder whether the one of the big takeaways maybe from this Lions tour for the Aussies in the World Cup is hit the ground running and we spoke about it yesterday in their preparation we feel like they were undercooked but I still look at this Lions series and I've heard people say that oh you know look at the the Aussies are going to see the the pride in the way in which their team fought and I feel like they were on the back foot from the first test whereas a home world cup over a longer period of time with people coming from all around the world and teams from all around the world I think it is a real opportunity for a nation that loves a big event and loves a successful team to grab it by the scruff of the neck but they have to do it from the first whistle, from the first game, and really build that interest.

49:06Alfie Reynolds: I think my positivity was based on maybe my worry when I was coming out here that we could be witnessing the death knoll of Australian Rugby Union. We could be here watching it fold. Whereas I'm leaving going, I'm far less worried about Australian Rugby Union than I am about Welsh Rugby Union because they've got so much talent around the country and they love their sport and they've got huge arenas and they've got money and investment and they've got rich people who are very happy to part with it, to go and watch it and put money into it. Where you look at Wales, and this is a whole different podcast, but you go, blimey, it's all just becoming so small and tiny and drifting away, which is why we've had two and then one Lions player from Wales on this trip.

49:48Alfie Reynolds: So I think I'm coming back positively about Australia and also still loving the Lions and loving doing this job, which is all part of it, isn't it?

49:59Will Kelleher: All right, let's round it off then, fellas. Our final dispatch from Australian soil. Can I get from each of you your highlight, which isn't allowed to be second test MCG? Oh, no. Let me steal that one straight away, because that was the moment from this series, wasn't it? But what's going to stand out to you when you get home, when you put your feet up, when you're sat on the sofa, outside of that MCG test, what's really going to kind of stand out to you as a special moment for this trip?

50:25Alfie Reynolds: Can we do off-field and on-field?

50:26Will Kelleher: You can do whatever you like. It could be the paddle court, Or it could be the test matches.

50:29Alfie Reynolds: Well, my recent paddling has been really quite average. So we'll leave that. But I loved the Finn Russell double pass. Brisbane, yeah. Brisbane bit. And I just love watching Finn Russell. He's so good. And that's the worst bit of punditry ever. But he's just brilliant at rugby, isn't he? He's been brilliant this tour. And just exactly what rugby should be. Like this guy who probably doesn't look like he should be an athlete. And it's just insanely clever and talented and brilliant. and winks at the camera before they put a towel over it in the dressing room and all that. Like, it's just a great bloke.

51:02Alfie Reynolds: And so I'll pick that because I'm not allowed the second test. And then can I just say that Australia's brilliant? Like, anyone who's never been to Australia, can you just come to Australia at some point? Even if it's winter and, like, the weather's been a bit rubbish, as you all saw on the telly on Saturday. But that's the only time it has been. Like, imagine being in Perth and you can just get a cab out to Cottesloe and go for a dip and a fish and chips in the middle of winter. or like we've been lucky enough to have lunch at the MCG looking over the field and the SCG as well and it's just like such a cool country such brilliant people like hospitality has been amazing and we've I think I've just had a brilliant time it's a really hard question to answer I mean I've

51:43Will Kelleher: made it difficult because I've taken away the thing that we would all say is the MCG second

51:46Alex Lowe: yeah but if you take that out of it I do think I will have mentioned it but I'm trying to think of The moments on this trip where I felt I've had a moment, being sort of behind the scenes at the MCG and the SCG, for someone who loves their cricket, I did take a moment to just go, these places are awesome.

52:05Alfie Reynolds: Yeah. Was it the Robbie Williams suit that they had in the case? No, it wasn't.

52:08Alex Lowe: Actually, one of the best bits...

52:10Alfie Reynolds: That was my moment.

52:11Alex Lowe: On the middle tier, and quite early on, I could see there were two people sitting next to it. One of the middle tiers of the MCG, on the light blue seating, is a single red seat which is there to to mark the biggest six ever hit at the mcg and it broke the seat and they replaced it with a red seat and when we got to our places at the mcg for the test i looked over and there were two people sitting next to it and all i wanted to do was go all the way around the stadium to tell them do you know what that seat is it's the biggest six ever hit at the MCG. And I just had a moment behind the scenes in the changing room looking at the honours boards and that was special.

52:54Alex Lowe: So that's adjacent to the Test match, but they've got some special, special stadiums in this country.

53:01Owen Slot: Yeah. Generally, my highlight was meeting five Welshmen who were on this tour as punters and they were carrying around their friend, Kevin, in an urn because he died from a heart attack in december last year and they didn't know whether to come without him and they were eventually persuaded to come with him and so they brought him with them and then i finally caught up with the story today and that their ambition had always been to scatter his ashes on the three lions um test venues and the finer details are in the times on Monday but yeah they completed their mission and it was it was a lovely story and very moving and kind of a story about how rugby brings people together well I feel like that's a pretty

53:48Will Kelleher: appropriate place to leave it and sums up the Lions pretty well doesn't it despite everything that you might say there's a heartbeat there and something about the Lions that is just pretty special and it's been our pleasure and privilege to be able to cover it over the last six or seven weeks to be here in Australia to bring you all of the rucks that we have three a week that we've been doing um we've loved it haven't we lads so yeah and thanks to everyone for listening because

54:14Alfie Reynolds: it's been a hell of a long season we've we've been podding since we had a little break after New Zealand which was I think July the 15th we came home from that in 2024 and we started up the pod again in up in Newcastle with Steve Diamond didn't we and one of the September one

54:29Will Kelleher: of the first ones we did was about the PGP as well I remember that was early on in the season Tell me more about the PTP.

54:35Alex Lowe: Well, we're about to Newcastle. Now they're going to be the Newcastle Red Bulls. Yeah, exactly.

54:39Owen Slot: Are you two going to do a Miss You, I Miss You pod from your holidays? Oh, should we? Oh, Alex, where are you? Oh, I'm on a beach.

54:46Alfie Reynolds: We'll just start talking about rugby into like a, I don't know, a seashell or something. But we're going to be back, though, because the rugby doesn't stop. No. We're going to be coming through the Women's World Cup, hopefully, with loads more pods.

54:59Will Kelleher: Yep, so hopefully. Plans TBC, but we will of course be bringing you updates from the Women's World Cup. Massive year for the Red Roses, huge opportunity for them with the World Cup on home soil. So yeah, we'll be departing Australia, but we'll be with you probably sooner than we necessarily expect.

55:20Owen Slot: Hannah Prevett here from The Business Podcast. Join me for a special episode with PWC UK's Marco Amitrano and WPP's Michael Froelich, recorded at the Greater Together Conference in Los Angeles, California. We'll discuss how partnerships between the US and the UK can drive economic growth and shape the future of transatlantic collaboration. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. While every other channel is fighting for your customers' attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears.

55:56Owen Slot: And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. Acast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, post-read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.