Groundhog day as brilliant Scotland bulldoze England

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1:32Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times, where we are in Murrayfield. It is empty, it is dark. The game ended a few hours ago, but we are going to reflect on a bit of a bonkers Calcutta Cup. I'm Alfie Reynolds. Great to have you back with us alongside Will Kelleher and Mark Palmer. Mark, coming to the victors first here. You all saw that coming, didn't you? That performance, that result for Scotland? That's what we've been saying all week. To be fair, I think most people did think that there was a possibility that Scotland, despite where they were coming from, could win this game because they have shown that they have absolutely no issue with them and no problem about getting themselves up to play England, beating England, tactically outsmarting them, which they did.

2:13And they did all those things today. The question inevitably now arises, what will they do next week in Cardiff? Because stringing these things together has been the challenge, not beating England. I feel like there's a what I'm trying to piece together in my mind is to what extent was it England being awful and to what extent was it Scotland doing what as you say we know they can do which was being ruthlessly efficient incredibly impressive in attack they dominated England in pretty much every area other than the set piece which by the way tells its own story from an England point of view when you they had a really good set piece and were still so so second best like in your mind how do you kind of see that and piece it together somewhere in the middle I thought I was surprised at how poor England were.

2:53I thought they really lacked any momentum, any kind of creativity. Much apart from set-pieces, as you said there, Alfie. In a way, that's also probably testament to the job that Scotland did in disrupting what they were trying to do. I thought they took them on in that aerial game and it began to look quite one-dimensional, didn't it? They weren't really getting any purchase from that Scotland back three, which was an area where they probably had been targeting, thinking that there was some joy to be had from those guys. but it was a real throwback to the real best of this Gregor Townsend team when they've played at the best there's that real attack in a line scores some great tries, Finn Russell potentially his best game for Scotland but then on the other side of it, much better backfield organisation much better at the breakdown and that kind of defensive resolve so I think on both sides of the ball it was actually a really well-structured win not just a hear him scare him, we'll score loads of great tries and win it 4-3, Kevin Keegan job

3:48Alfie Reynolds: it's like Groundhog Day all the way around isn't it? Yep, exactly that we'll get onto the England thing in a bit but on the Scotland side and it's also the same people doing all the same stuff and us doing exactly the same things but like Finn Russell was amazing Hugh Jones scores his 9th try against England hilariously, like the breakdown was a mess again and in Scotland's favour, their attack was way more cohesive and clicked way better than the England attack, it's all the same things happening again. It is and that's what makes it You feel so conflicted because it was a fantastic performance and result, but it also adds to the frustration that they can do this time and time again in this one fixture and then can't replicate it.

4:28And as Sione Tupolotti sat downstairs just now and said, look, the real measure is what we now do in the next match. Heard that before, I think. Heard that before, but, you know... He spoke well, though, didn't he? He did, and he was in fairly... I was going to say feisty form on Friday. He wasn't actually delivered a pretty stinging message in a very measured way. We were all to blame. It's easy being a journalist, he said. I was going to say. He's never had to sit in his press box, by the way. Lucky old Tim. Hardly so. I'll swap wages if you want. But no, I think they're certainly entitled to feel a degree of, not revenge, but they've proved a point to those of us who have been doubting them.

5:12that comes with the territory when you criticise and you put yourself out there to be criticised as well so it was a stinging kind of response from them but we want to get to a place where it's not always a reaction to something they just go out and show this kind of level of performance more consistently because that's what's going to make them challengers, not just winning one off games against England

5:32Alfie Reynolds: We've had this with England as well when they're in ruts of the same things keep happening, the demons come back again and you go, actually when you're losing the criticism is fair like losing in Italy in that way was dreadful and throwing away a 20 point lead against Argentina was dreadful and it's also true that you were brilliant today did everything that people wanted you to do and it's like saved your coach's bacon as well so it's kind of like I think players and coaches and things get frustrated that journalists seem to flip flop and change their mind but it's like well we're reporting on the thing that happened in front of us that day the evidence last week was that you were utterly utterly dreadful and this week the evidence is that you can do it and it makes it more frustrating but we'll celebrate it tonight if you're Scottish because you go, okay, this team is a good team when they put it together.

6:19And it's not out on its feet as we were beginning to kind of fear that that might just be the end of the road for this group but they've shown plenty of signs of life there. A question for both of you on the kind of psychology of this match from a Scotland point of view then do they find a different level for when it comes to playing England and then from the English point of view was this once again, Will, an England team that came up here despite in the week saying to us that there was no kind of psychological demons from Calcutta Cups up here in days gone past. Did we see that from an England team in the opening 15-20 minutes of the game?

6:51For whoever, Mark, if you want to take the Scotland perspective first. An interesting couple of bits to that because the Scotland players and coaches will tell you until they're blue in the face that it's not. They don't take it up a notch purely because it's England. But then we've just sat and listened to Gregor downstairs who said, well actually, why would we present that as a negative in any case, if it was the case because if you're going to play your best game of the year against traditionally one of the strongest sides in the competition if not the world, then why is that a bad thing? It's his belief that it's a game that has always and will always mean the most to the crowd and they're probably vindicated by some of the scenes you saw today but equally, that crowd want them to be doing more than being a team that beats England and that's it So, you know, I can see both sides of that, certainly.

7:40But again, as well as to Will's previous point, they will only change that narrative when they go and string results together. So at the moment, the evidence would suggest that they do raise it for England.

7:51Alfie Reynolds: On the England side of the coin, you go, I thought we'd left this behind. This kind of seeing demons all over the place, collapsing, being muddly, lacking any conviction, lacking physicality. like they were good in a scrum of the lineup but they were dominated physically on the gain line in the air at the breakdown and they had 12 entry entries into the Scottish 22 and scored two tries one of which was basically just the consolation walk in to massage the score line from Ben Earl at the end like we left all of that in 2024 and 2023 when they were flattering to deceive and not putting away teams when they had them and being beaten by better teams and you just thought why why has this come back up to the surface again well that's the thing right is because I I believe the coaches when in the week we were you know the narrative for us was 2020 was the last time England came up here and won and they pointed out to us well look like loads of players in this team have barely been involved in a number of those games like it's not really a factor and we spoke about it and we thought yeah that does make sense but as we were watching particularly that first half and what was it 17 nil after about 15 minutes england were conceding all sorts of penalties they missed 20 tackles in the first half they conceded 18 turnovers across the whole game they had 10 handling errors by the way i know and but you look at all of that and i struggled to watch it particularly that particularly going 17 nil down i was watching i or and even the the genge fumbling the ball close to his own there were so many things that bad skills i i get what they were saying in the week but i don't think the evidence that we've just watched backs it up like they look like rabbits in the headlights yeah and i don't know if this is an unfair thing to say but like murrayfield is not an uh hostile or difficult place to come but england find ways of making it difficult it's like it's not a beer pit it's not at all like actually i thought before the game mark that it was flat it was so flat it was so quiet you could hear everyone talking it It was like being at Lourdes or something, where you hear the bubbling hum.

9:56Alfie Reynolds: And obviously we've got HRH and all that, and that kind of slows everything down and makes it all a bit... But it was not a bear pit. And I watched the teams come in on the bus, and it's all just a bit like... Yeah, a bit pantomime. It's kind of like, come on. And Pollock's kind of bouncing around, and they're loving it a bit. And it's like, this is not like going to Ellis Park. No. Or Stade de France. Or even Cardiff. Cardiff, when that's popping, yeah. but you're like so so there's nothing about the environs there's nothing about being here that's difficult but they just find ways of it's like scotland are sort of kryptonite aren't they as a team where you go whatever they throw at them in attacking shape wise they just can't deal with it and look they shot themselves in the foot massively and we'll get on to the sort of detail of it i guess but in my view so right from the start it looked like an absolutely preordained plan more box kick straight off the bat and that's what England used to do in like 23, 24 it looked like they'd gone for a whole week going our first thing when we get the ball is do number two then number three like it was like going through the little menu and actually it was good kick batted back the crumbs go England's way but they just don't get the ball Tupolotto kicks it long and then they've kind of lost that momentum straight away then you get like Arundel with I thought quite a harsh first yellow card I thought the first one was harsh he kind of didn't quite release But I don't think you can say the first penalty of the game, basically, that that's a flat, bang, straight yellow card.

11:23I thought that was harsh too. Do you think there's any sense, and queerly they've struggled in this fixture, so you wouldn't think there would be any element of complacency. But do you think how bad Scotland have been, the narrative around Scotland that hopefully we can claim some credit for having created this. But is there any danger that England thought that this was going to be straightforward? Before you jump in here, Will, to add to that as well, how much was last week really not that helpful preparation? It was exactly because it was a Turkish year. Yeah, yeah.

11:51Alfie Reynolds: I don't want to be Captain Heinser at all, but I think I said that in my Monday piece from last week. It was poor preparation. It was a training game. There's just no replication of what would happen up here. But to your point, I think one of the frustrating things about covering the England team, like I said before, is that you feel like they've answered lots of questions, and then you go but what was that yeah yeah where did that come from coming up here with swagger and confidence and they use all those big words and i want to be bulletproof and you'll be like well sounds like you were just getting the gun turning it on yourself and shooting holes in yourselves wasn't it like it was unbelievable and i think some of it some of it has like sport is about tactics and game plans these days like gone are the days of 1990 and david soul and politics and all that actually kind of mattering to the game.

12:39Alfie Reynolds: And the tactics of it, I thought, England went so kick-heavy again, and it just so happened that the randomiser of the balls in the air thing today just didn't work. And that's what happens sometimes these days, where you throw loads of balls up in the air, and some days all the crumbs fall your way, which they did in November for England, and today they just didn't, but they just kept doing it, and it kept not working. and I thought this was a team that were very good, as they keep saying, adapting on the fly and going, this plan's not working, so let's pivot and do that. And you're like, but you didn't do that.

13:12Alfie Reynolds: And then poor Arundel has one of his worst days. I feel bad for him, really, because you're just like, that is just a proper stinker. Just never watch that again and go home. Forget it. Okay, I am actually quite a good player, but that's just a disaster. But then Roebuck and Stewart are meant to be the dominating back three players in the air and just weren't and like they've got no punch at 12 at all so Ben L's got to carry the ball 23 times through the game by the way and I actually thought he stood up quite well the hooked marrow after 56 minutes that must be the earliest he's ever been substituting in an England shirt.

13:49Alfie Reynolds: Underhill got hooked at half time he's meant to be England's best defender he missed four tackles in the first half almost like two at the same time against who took the mickey out of him like they just they just lost it and so that's that's where the point there i made about the kind of tactical game plan thing is really important but there is a mental thing here and i don't know why because there's not as i as i say there's nothing demonic about coming here it's a nice city like we love it it was sunny today like it didn't rain mark indeed i know you should have been in rome last week i know but you're like but that's why I don't get it.

14:24Alfie Reynolds: And actually, I think it's hard, isn't it? Because England have won 12 games in a row up to this point. They haven't lost for a year. So you can't go, oh, they're all rubbish and it's all terrible. Sack the coach, George Ford's terrible. Because that's just all way too overreactive. But I think if I'm England, I've like, if we want to be the team that we should be and we should compete for Six Nations title, we should demand grand slams. We should get to World Cup semifinals and win massive away games away from home. We've got to be so angry at that. Like, that's not a dispassionate Monday review where you go, oh, well, we'll knit together the clips, we'll take the learnings.

14:59Alfie Reynolds: That's a sort of, like, what's wrong with us? Yeah, yeah. And maybe that's what Scotland were in this week, where Cieny Tupolosi was talking about being desperate. And it kind of showed. But, again, I thought we were out of this doom loop with England where they need to be punched in the face to react. Just quickly on that, and I want to get back onto Scotland a little bit more. But that's the thing, right? is to what like what how much weight do you put on this 80 minutes because england have won 12 in a row like this is clearly a team that have got better and yes i know i'll make make the point again that i made earlier in the week we react so strongly to six nations games because your team has five of them they all matter so much so therefore the fallout is also always so heavy one way or the other other that's the fun of it as well it is like yes it is but that's the but what's the weight and it'll be the same among the fans by the way and the players themselves like it's not just a journalist thing we go swing one way swing the other is it I know but that's my point is to what extent is it actually this team has won 12 in a row they've had a really bad afternoon now I think there's more pressure on the rest of this championship now for England but let's wait and see what happens let's wait and see what they produce for the rest of this championship before jumping down their throats yes but it is one of those results that because of the way it happened the fact that it wasn't close it wasn't like a bounce of a ball or a width of a post job it was a it was hammering really but how mad is it that if george ford does kick that drop guard it's 24 16 and you're like scotland are gonna joke again but it's just one of those days where you come out of it and you sort of zoom out and it makes you kind of recontextualize what you saw leading up to it and maybe it's too reactive and unfair but you sort of go okay now so was the 12 wins in a row a bit of a nice easy soft run of fixtures they didn't have to play the box the fixtures fell for them they didn't get them in November and let's be honest they probably would have lost that game which would have gone okay so yeah England a bit below and so then you get rattled along and you go whoa they should be winning a Grand Slam then here we go what about when was the what's the world record number of wins you know like Paris then LS Park here we go this is going to be a team and then he you suddenly have one of those games where the rugs pulled and you sort of go ah yeah hang on dingwall when things aren't neat and tidy can't break the game line when the ball isn't going into roebuck's hands in the air he doesn't really have anything else he doesn't have gas and pay he doesn't have dynamism out wide and steward looks a bit pedestrian sometimes marrow looks tired like underhill just missed tackles like they lacked physicality and you sort of go ah that's that's made that's max confused me it's confusing yeah i think that's what's frustrating because in all the time that I've covered England I've never watched an England team just be good for a while and I thought come on but you just kind of go I thought this was the point where they were yeah yeah and then you go oh hang on no they weren't and so you sort of see I don't know was it all false what did it mean Mark well indeed well that was literally my first line of uh my face to make you think well for Scotland in the bigger picture what does it mean who knows at this point and frankly who cares you have to live in the moment for that so I don't think they answered any major question today as we started off by saying they've done this many times before, it's what happens next that counts but yeah for England now they're going to be relying on Scotland beating France here aren't they in a few weeks time which actually before I always talk about my family predictions table thing which I've ruined that now because Scotland won but I said Scotland would beat France well there you go it doesn't seem ridiculous I don't have any confidence in it what's the fallout going to be here then Mark what's the balance in your mind what's the opposite of fallout is that what I keep saying no no no but I'm saying fallout is sort of negative isn't it this is like good fallout where do they go obviously there was so much noise around Gregor Townsend his position the kind of Newcastle Red Bulls link this what is it not an internship his 30 days a year which has always felt a little bit uncomfortable.

19:04What does today do for all of that for Scotland? I'm not really sure it does anything. Well, that's it. The only thing it does, yeah, as we've kind of said and written, some of the lack of leadership within the Scottish Rugby Union, I'm not convinced even if they'd lost by 40 points today that the rug would have been pulled, certainly mid-championship. But I think he has absolutely guaranteed that he'll see out this tournament, then into the Nations Championship. To be honest, I think he probably has now, this will be him to the World Cup now, I think he will see out his contract that's the reality of it and again, for that being the case we really need to see tangible steps forward which again is winning in Cardiff, it's beating France because that's the bit that I've always said, that was my barometer not necessarily winning a Six Nations but going into Super Saturday still in contention and we've never gone that deep so with nine years with the squad that they have at least once in that period we should have been going there So maybe this is the year

20:01Alfie Reynolds: That phrase again We're back We're back It's coming home It's fun isn't it It does It turns on a six minutes Doesn't it It's bad Things go like that And suddenly Scotland go down to Cardiff And win And from that first block That's now a three week Three game block If they're on two from three You probably go Actually it's not bad Well actually yeah If you were to almost Take the nations That they've won And lost out of the picture And just said If we gave you two from three In the fallout week You'd be like Yeah And you go, well, maybe lose to England, but beat the other two. And it's like, well, actually.

20:32Alfie Reynolds: Hang on a minute. You would take that, wouldn't you? Yeah, absolutely. And then I guess on the other side of it, you look at England now and you go, look, Ireland are clearly not very good at the moment. And they're struggling. Like, they huffed and puffed against Italy. And, like, I mean, Italy, how good? I know. You're other favourite team. They are. I like to keep one in my back pocket. Spaniolo sticking furlong into the stands in the scrum. Like, oh, my word. but that game I mean every week's amazing and massive and huge and whatever stereotype you want to use but that's enormous now isn't it because if you go hang on so if they then lose like let's say they lose to Ireland and then you go away to Italy who are really good and then Paris one wins six nations you see no it won't be but you're just kind of like that's why we love this tournament because you think you know what's going to happen then something else completely flips you around and you just go, I don't know how to make sense of it.

21:29Alfie Reynolds: Every year, it's just like, why can't it just be simple? Those three games for England now, I mean, you could say the same to Scotland. They got a heart. So the next run after that as well is South Africa away and the Fiji and Everton fine and then Argentina away. It's like, this is a tough block. Absolutely. Some hard away games. And by the way, as proved, not very good at away games. We mentioned it on the pod last week, didn't we? 15th game for Borswick away from home, 8th defeat. and all the eight against good teams and all the seven are against ones you think they should beat. And that's an issue.

22:01Alfie Reynolds: I don't know. And look, Borswick will do the never too high, never too low, which is a very Yohan van Graan way of looking at things too. The sort of, I think he talked afterwards about often swing to the polarised positions these days. And you're like, yeah, we do, to be fair, in rugby politics and everything else. But I think back to my point from before, I feel like I don't think England need a dispassionate review. I think they need an emotional review because it's actually, for the team they want to be, it's unacceptable to come up here and just be so far off it. For however good Scotland are, this is not me taking away at all from Scotland, who are brilliant, but if England wants to be considered as one of the best teams in the world, they shouldn't lose here.

22:44Or they shouldn't put in performances like that. And be meek. I think that was the thing for England, I thought, before the game. I could see a world in which Scotland won, but I thought it would be a one score game either way. The manner of it was very surprising to be fair. It's one of those games isn't it that you immediately just got the sense of this is not starting well for England this isn't going well and it was almost the opposite of I remember the World Cup semi-final in 23 I know they ended up losing that to the box but you were kind of sat there after 15-20 minutes thinking something feels right here and it was the opposite from an England point of view today.

23:19Did you have it from a Scotland point of view Mark? I'm too careworn to feel any optimism. 17-0, you're like, ah, they'll know. They'll mess it up. Somebody announced me in the ribs and said, Argentina. Let us enjoy the moment. I think I said that to you. It was probably you, yeah, to be fair. Okay, well, I think our minds are still probably scrambled a little bit, but we're trying to work our way through it. A quick break here, and then we'll round off the other side of this.

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25:11We must make digital literacy tools available in our schools. We must work with mental health professionals to support children. and we must empower mentors, educators and parents to keep kids happy. Learn more about our commitment to finding lasting solutions at empowerourfuturecoalition.com slash solutions. Paid for by the Coalition to Empower Our Future. OK, so we've spoken quite a lot generally about the game in terms of getting into some of the more, perhaps the more detail then. Henry Arundel, as we say, just a game to forget, an evening to forget, a day to forget for him i did think as you've said that it was a little bit unlucky for that first yellow card i think the second one is straight away i was like well he's gone here because that's always going to be given as a yellow card and therefore his second yeah

25:58Alfie Reynolds: yeah at the moment right when it happened i thought oh is that a bit harsh to send him off for the take out in the air but i think that's where it's good it's a 20 minute red yeah because both yellow cut like if it was those two yellow cards and it was a full red you'd be like come on Just on my first view, I thought, he's just running. He doesn't even try to jump. Stane kind of jumps into him, sort of, and he almost knocks himself out. Like, it's not an aggressive act. But then the more you think about it, you go, well, he's just nowhere near that. He needs to pull out of that collision. He needs to have the awareness to just not go for it.

26:37Alfie Reynolds: And, yeah, I think once you replay it and all that, you go, well, look, he's absolutely hammered him in the air. two yellows make a 20 minute red which i'm trying to think is that the first time we've seen that probably someone will remind me that we've seen another i think we have seen it before but i can't think of the exact example yeah people would have had to thumb through their law books but yeah nowadays two yellows make a 20 minute red and then the other thing to go back to the point of the the reaction always being strong and being extreme and whatnot how many questions from this game do you think arise about england's selection so you've mentioned dingwall was the 12 maybe freeman is the 13 as well once they lost arendal they lost all of the the big pace in that back three attack struggled to punch any holes in in the scotland defense all game it's one of those things isn't it you could start looking through that england team i know all of these things like previously i thought england have great stock in their back three because they're so good in the aerial game and then all of a sudden it's like well hang on they lost the aerial game today and well two of them at least plus well known for being amazing in the air and they didn't get anything today so and look and this is not just a reactive point because England struggled in this area but the the new escorting thing that's now been in place for about a year and a year or so isn't it is such a randomizer in the game these days isn't it because as we said some days it can just drop for you the whole time like Pollock's try in November that gets back back and things like that you just like you can just get lucky and he almost had a similar one today which he just drops didn't he but there are other days where it just everything falls against you so it has really opened up the game that and maybe not necessarily that negatively but it it does lead to some of these big collisions like we've seen with Arundel but yeah it just it just gives you lots of questions and I wonder whether for I don't know I wonder how reactive they're going to be because it'd be fascinating because it would be against their thing of being level despite defeat it'd be fascinating to see who he drops next week if anyone and i wonder whether ollie lawrence is someone that you go do need some punch so you're breaking open that manu cage again but look i think it's not really i'm not trying to be too negative about dingwall because i think he's really good and he's been excellent in some big games he's fantastic in the all blacks game but there's just something about like there's some games where it just doesn't work when you're not a big 12.

29:00Alfie Reynolds: And like Atkinson's another one, but you're like, you can't just throw the baby out with the bathwater, can't you? And change it a lot. But I mean, I don't know. I mean, I actually thought Mauro Otoji looked really tired today. Really leggy. Leggy, yeah. Which is a worry. I mean, he's had so many massive seasons. It's meant to be his 100th cap next week. I doubt it'll be dropped. But does Curry come into it? Off the bench. Like he's been a bench man forever now, but they were like, we've got to get him on at half time. There are things they can do, but they don't have Manny Faberbos. so he's injured.

29:28Alfie Reynolds: They don't have different props and actually the props are good. Like Joe Hayes has been excellent, hasn't he? So what would you change if it were you? Well, my suspicion is they will, I think they'll stick with the Freeman at 13 thing because I think they are committed for that to work and be what they take into the World Cup. So I think they'll stick with it. I mean, I think you'll, I think as we know from Borthwick, they're not too reactionary. I think they might fiddle around with the back three. Potentially, I think they'll probably stick with Freeman at 13. But in what way though? because there's no we've got the options yeah they're not going to pick Merley I don't think you don't think?

30:02Alfie Reynolds: no Furbank could get the tombola out a bit there Marcus Smith 15 I doubt it not to start I doubt it yeah I don't know what about from the other side of this the Scotland point of view Mark in the the back three in particular was kind of like criticised in in Italy but they were absolutely excellent today Greg have been vindicated he was absolutely vindicated his point the team announcement was that they've made changes up front and set-piece was horrific last week and a couple of players paid the price for that but he felt the backline hadn't been given any kind of platform to show what they were going to do particularly with those weather conditions and judging any back three I think with that level of rain genuinely haven't seen anything like it at Murrayfield or anywhere in the world so it was biblical so I think it was fair to give those three a run I mean there must have been a huge temptation to go back to the back three that particularly in this fixture has done so well together but he resisted that, gave those lads another crack and I think all three of them in different ways but equally impressively answered the call so Jamie Dovey picked up a shoulder injury towards the end there he saw him coming limping off so they don't think that is as serious as the back row injuries which are Dempsey unfortunately does look like he's now going to be out for the tournament which would be a major blow and Jamie Ritchie's picked up a knee injury which doesn't look great either but I think if Dobie were to miss out then it becomes a really interesting one because do you go straight back to Doohan on the left there or do you mix it up and put Steyn there and Darcy on the right those two have been so neck and neck in so many things and tries particularly over the years it would be a close call but yeah I think again that back line selection definitely was vindicated I've got a sort of wider point to make here which maybe finishes us off or tease up monday's pod go on for a big discussion who are going to have on for that charlie uh charlie elgin and david walsh okay so i've just thought of this so bear with me it's formulating they have just turned the lights off behind us by the way so i think slight message being dropped someone somewhere is uh waiting for us to leave but are we seeing a tournament where there's one very good team and lots of average teams i.e france are clearly very strong.

32:25Alfie Reynolds: We thought England were up with them, but they're clearly not now. Scotland are clearly still quite middling, despite today, because they did what they did in Italy. Ireland are obviously struggling to put together what they're used to, and Wales are terrible. It's so fascinating, because for so many years now, or certainly several years, it's been a two-speed Six Nations with France and Ireland and the rest. At this point, but again, bear with me here, but what if Wales were to go and do something ridiculous on Sunday? Are we wrapping it up now? Anyway, but no France will be two from two They are queerly the preeminent side, I don't see anyone really getting close to them at this point but beyond that you're right, it could be Rassi's maybe slightly Rassi-esque point about Italy finishing second could you really rule it out at this point?

33:16Alfie Reynolds: Well they've got France-Isle is the middle game Yeah, yeah Then Cardiff, where they've won twice before, or the two most recent games. But I just think, you look at what France did to Ireland, and everyone sort of tried to go, yeah, and England did it to Wales, and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, very different context. Then you just see how France can physically dominate and rip you apart, and you go, no one can do that. I mean, look, I think, yeah, France are clearly the best team in this Six Nations. You having asked that question has made me think, And this is almost a ridiculous point based upon the evidence of today and what we just watched.

33:52But I still think England should be finishing second in this Six Nations. Like, I still view England, when they've just lost 31-20 to Scotland, as the second best team in this Six Nations. Yeah, maybe. But again, it's like they've now got to react and show that that is... And they've got to win three in a row. This is an anomaly, not a new run of bad form. Look, I could be totally wrong there. And it's one of those things that even as I'm saying it, you can so easily bat that back.

34:17Alfie Reynolds: and produce a counter argument to that. So here's an extension point here. I think if you're South Africa and you're watching the Six Nations, you're feeling quite chilled, aren't you? Absolutely. You're going, the one team that's really good in this tournament is France and we've smashed them and we've psychologically damaged them and we're not really worried about the others when it comes to the World Cup. Like if you're Razzie and he's putting out a lot of videos of him and his coaches getting quite drunk recently, there's one ridiculous one that people can find. I think it's Andy Edwards, one of the S &C guys.

34:47Alfie Reynolds: Just like out of his brain. Anyway, yeah, I don't think they're watching the Six Nations cowering with fear about the five, six teams up here. But I think maybe you have there then South Africa way out in front in terms of the world game. France way out in front in terms of the Northern Hemisphere game. And then there's loads of teams in that middle pack. South Africa is the ones that don't have that random anomaly game like England have had today. Yeah. Where you go, what was that? Yeah, everyone else has the ability to... every week and that's the challenge for France and England to get this out of their system this kind of where was that from defeat exactly well maybe that's a good place to leave it I feel like some would probably need to be heading off here gents but Mark great to have you back on the pod in person always a pleasure and yeah I still need to get to the bottom of your journey back from Rome which I mentioned on Monday's pod but you might not want to revisit yet well indeed I think the PTSD is still strong from that one so we'll leave that there Will you'll be back with us on Thursday I think next time you're on and Mark you'll be joining us no doubt on a Monday to see how Scotland get on now that they're up and running in the Six Nations nothing can go wrong from here Mark you're good again the Mick McCarthy meme has ended the track final reminder for you as well Monday the 9th of March Twickenham Stoop the Ruck Live with Serge Betson Courtney Laws myself and Charlie Morgan you can get your tickets head on to the Times website and make sure you scoop up your ticket for that looking forward to it thank you very much for listening this has been the ruck the journalist's rugby podcast from the times and the sunday times if you work in university maintenance granger considers you an mvp because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip-off and granger is your trusted partner offering the products you need all in one place from hvac and plumbing supplies to lighting and more and all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock so your team always gets the win.

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