Harlequins humiliated and salary cap secrets

0:25Alfie: Thank you. This podcast is supported by MidiHealth. Are you in midlife and feeling dismissed, unheard, or just plain tired of the old healthcare system? You're not alone. For too long, women's serious midlife health issues have been trivialized, ignored, and met with a just deal with it attitude. Many of us have been made to feel ashamed or forgotten. In fact, even today, 75 % of women seeking care for menopause and perimenopause issues are left entirely untreated. It's time for a change. It's time for Midi. MIDI is not just a healthcare provider. It's a women's telehealth clinic founded and supported by world-class leaders in women's health.

1:08Alfie: What sets MIDI apart? We are the only women's telehealth brand covered by major insurance companies, making high-quality, expert care accessible and affordable for all women. Our clinicians provide one-on-one, face-to-face consultations where they truly listen to your unique needs. We offer a full range of holistic, data-driven solutions from hormonal therapies and weight loss protocols to lifestyle coaching and preventative health guidance. This isn't one-size-fits-all care. This is care uniquely tailored for you. At Midi, you will join our patients who feel seen, heard, and prioritized. You will find that our mission is clear, to help all women thrive in midlife, giving them access to the health care they deserve.

1:48Alfie: Because we believe midlife isn't the middle at all. It's the beginning of your second act. Ready to feel your best and write your second act script? Visit JoinMiddy.com today to book your personalized, insurance-covered virtual visit. That's JoinMiddy.com. Middy, the care women deserve.

2:22Alfie: Hello, welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. I'm Alfie Reynolds. We're back in studio on a Monday, and I'm delighted to say I am back alongside, to my left, Will Kelleher. Wait a second. We can't just start like that, can we? Why not? Alfie Reynolds is back, everybody. Isn't that quite exciting? How many people are thinking, oh yeah, I forgot he was away? No, we haven't. Don't worry, mate. Alex Lowe is sat across the table from me as well. Hi, Alex. Hello, welcome to the fatherhood ride. Thank you very much. It is interesting. The prep for this pod has been a bit different to last time, trying to actually find time to be on my laptop and watch games and all that sort of thing.

2:57Alfie: But bleary-eyed, a bit tired. Yeah, it's not too bad. Congratulations, Alfie. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. And Elgin, to my right-hand side. How are you doing, Elgin?

3:04Elgan: Hello, I'm very well, thank you. What I need to know, Alfie, is has this given you a sense of perspective that when you go home after a big podcast defeat at home, that you're not a podcaster there, your dad? Has it changed?

3:16Alfie: Yeah, well, you know, I used to think, why would anyone ever want to miss the ruck, whereas now my priorities have changed. and yeah I'm just wondering. It's funny actually so one of the pods that I was away before our little boy arrived Alex at the start of the pod you get and I know Alex is a top journalist has very very good sources said Alfie is waiting the arrival of his daughter and I thought even me and Rach don't know at this point. Alex has some very good contacts in Kingston NHS. That was a dumbass that was a rare journalistic error. That's rugby right to a year you're talking to there.

3:48Alfie: It made Rach and I both laugh though Alex must know something here do you know what I wasn't on that one and I was listening and I was like oh Alex there's a scoop there he's revealed a gender that's a modern gender reveal I have to have words in my sauce

4:04Elgan: sorry for getting it wrong I told him

4:07Alfie: but look lads good to be back I've enjoyed the last few weeks thank you for holding down the fort and back in time for another round of the prem we're going to get on to some of your emails as well I know a few of you got in touch off the back of last week where you guys were kind of trying to discuss Europe. It comes up every year of Europe, doesn't it? What on earth do we do with the Champions Cup? But you had your own suggestions. Some of the listeners have got in touch as well, so we'll get to some of them. And we're going to chat about a bit of the transfer merry-go-round at the moment. It's an interesting time, I think, for players moving ahead of next season in the Gallagher Prem.

4:37Alfie: Alex has been writing about that. In terms of the results at the weekend, though, where do we want to start? I mean, maybe Saturday evening, Will? Yeah, is this a sour note to start a happy podcast? on before Christmas but here's my first question of the pod who do you think was more humiliated Gloucester at Tigers or Quinns at Bristol I was at both I think I'm going for Quinns just because it was their big day fireworks everything else you had Danny Care almost like Michael Buffer doing a ring walk kind of thing he didn't quite do the let's get ready to rumble but he lit the place up and all that and then it was oh no oh no they got absolutely destroyed by Bristol who were excellent and like we can dwell on some of the positives of tigers and bristol but i feel felt both gloucester and quins were dreadful and like after so yeah i went to both matches and on on friday night george skivington was sitting there going i did not expect that and he called it a slap in the face he was kind of lost for words a bit because he was kind of going i thought we prepared really well we haven't looked like that was going to happen they had a whole lot of injuries didn't they when they played bristol i was at that one in october and one i think they had 15 injuries and bristol had 17 and now they're all coming back and they've got worse and you're like wow well it was it felt like a weekend of contrasts in terms of results and as you say thumping win for leicester absolutely desperate performance from gloucester the same for quins in their kind of big game against bristol we could get on to sail who at the moment are really struggling and start the year northampton with a thumping win as well it feels like it was one of those weekends that it's quite polarized really in terms there's some teams that at this point in time just before christmas almost at the halfway point of the regular season will be feeling pretty confident about where they are and then other teams alex that you're looking at and thinking yeah this season could turn pretty quickly yeah it does i just thought like quinn's performance is the one for me because it really i was at quinn's the week before where they they strolled to a 10 try win against bayonne and um we knew that bayonne had brought a weak team and it was just a perfect day for Quinns to to play how they want to play up against Bristol they had to front up physically and it's just a classic view of Quinns that they've got all the all the skills but a soft underbelly and and that's exactly how the game went they they were they were mullered in every area they they lost the collisions when they had the ball they lost the collisions when they were in defense and without any platform they then they couldn't do anything and that given that the stage and and that I know that selling what do they get in the end 70 ,000 a bit less i think 65 65 which is still like an incredible saturday before christmas slightly harder because it's saturday before christmas but you know big stage double-headed games the the show looks incredible the the lights and the music and you create this this wonderful environment for new fans to come along and then they then they get battered and then they're miles off the pace it was it was interesting i know what he meant but jason gilmore came in afterwards and since people have read what he said they've there's been quite a lot of unhappy gilmore memes doing the rounds on social media but he said he was he was to be fair to him very strong about his own team and he said we need guys who want to compete week to week and not just turn up when there are fireworks and the irony was that there were fireworks and didn't turn up sounds like a ben stokes interview yeah well actually this was the thing like no room for weak men in our changing yeah it was it was there were so many parallels to the point where so for to pull back the curtain a bit on the way we do these things so it was a six o 'clock kickoff so for the sunday times that means I have to do what we call in our biz a runner which basically means you have to send in copy through the game so you don't just write one match report on the whistle you kind of send chunks and it was you can get hoisted by your own petard in that way like I'd written quite a lot of my report at half time because it's 26 nil and you think bristan ball I really don't want to have to rewrite this but after half time jack walker gets binned bristol score another one through gone donna and you go okay well this is not going to happen it's 33 nil fine and then genge goes in you're like right so i i had this sense of well what i'd done is i would i prepared to write an intro with the succession quote in it which was um i love you but you're not serious people from logan roy and i got an email back from our sports editors at the sunday times being like do you mind changing that because simon wild's written the same intro about the ashes and i was that kind of sums it up, doesn't it?

9:02It's this, this sort of Baz Ball thing has been long Quinns' way, hasn't it? And I feel like all of this is probably, I don't know, harsh home truths, but they've drunk the Kool-Aid of that, I think. Like, their title winning teams have been built off a very strong front five. People like Collier, friend of the pod from last week, Joe Marler, Wilco Lowe, people like Mo Fasavalu back in 2012. It's been steadily

9:27Alfie: chipped away though, hasn't it? Esther Hayden was lost from the midfield. The old Mahler's now retired. Steadily, a lot of power has been lost from that team. And now they just have this kind of vibes-based, we'll just wing it and do it our way. We're true to the Quinn's DNA thing, which actually turns out to just be that they're soft, they're weak-minded. You can never say about teams like this, the same with cricket, that they don't care, because that's just not true. But they just fall off tackles. They look uninterested during games. and it's not all of the individuals but it's a lot of them and it pervades through this whole club and they look a shambles as well they don't even have a head coach Danny Wilson quit before the season started right before the season started to join Wales as an assistant and they brought in Toby Booth as a kind of senior figure but Jason Gilmore who's not been there very long is now the kind of more senior of the assistants and again they've drunk the Kool-Aid because they go well it worked in 2021 vibes let's just crack on we won the title without head coach it'll work again and it's they just look rudderless i'm afraid and look it was a harsh report and it it gives me no joy to write that because i've said on the pod before my family all quince fans and stuff like it's fun when they are freewheeling and swashbuckling but there needs to be a massive reality check there because they're just weak at the moment and it's it's depressing a bit there's an interesting kind of parallel as well that it was bristol that was beating them as well who were also a side that have had a kind of reputation for swashbuckling, free-flowing, loose, run it from everywhere.

11:00Alfie: And at times, that has been true to them. And there's been times where that has got them into trouble, where it was a real feature of that performance. And yes, I know what you're saying of Quinns, far from a gnarly physical pack, but Bristol physically, set-piece, forwards, like absolutely dominated them, which is when Bristol have been at their best under Patlam, as well as all the good stuff out wide. And seemingly, they've had a lot of tough conversations about their defence. And actually, it's coming to fruition a bit, because I was just looking it up on the train in, but I think in the last six matches they've conceded fewer than 20 points in all competitions.

11:31Bristol, which is not a very Bristol thing to have done. And Ellis Gens spoke to us nicely afterwards, and we can get on to his big man try, which was unbelievable, about basically calling each other out and putting big clips up in meetings, just going like, you're spending too long on the floor, you don't want it, like really kind of getting under the skin of each other, and it's working. and I just last little bit on Bristol they're showing the resilience that Quinns completely lack that game in October there's 17 players out injured and now they're 5 wins from 7 and 2 points off the top 4 and you're thinking now they've got everyone back and they still won't, they've got Randall coming soon they've got, McGinty still won't be for a while but Ibatoi might be back around the January Champions Cup games, you think if they can get into position where they've got most people fit for that run-in bit where you have sort of seven, eight, nine games at the end of the season, they're going to be a hell of a team to stop, aren't they?

12:27Alfie: Will's mentioned it there, Elgin, I know you want to come in on this, but forwards tries, we start with Ellis Genge, and it was a good weekend for some incredible forward tries.

12:36Elgan: Absolutely, there was Jack Kemeny first. I can't recall seeing a try really quite like it, where he did so many sort of short steps in such quick succession for a forward like that, and then, yeah, I'd see Ellis Genge running over from 50 metres. My head immediately turns to Gethin Jenkins against Namibia at the 2011 World Cup. Or one of the great locks in... I love watching locks in open field. Lovely long legs running from 50 metres. Ifraimi Rwanga for Fiji against Wales in 2005. They're the things that send me off sweetly to sleep at night thinking of those moments. So it was great to have two of them at the weekend.

13:09We had the Chesson one as well. The other game I was at, he was like lolloping away like a giraffe. It was brilliant.

13:14Alfie: 2005 is a better reference point for you. 2011 was a bit too modern. bit too recent yeah I apologise

13:21Elgan: I'll do better research

13:22Alfie: yeah you saved it of the 2005 Alex when I look at you know how previously with the Prem we always spoke about how it was what was it they used themselves as a kind of marketing strapline of the closest league in the world is that it or am I paraphrasing they slightly evolved it didn't they now it became the most unpredictable most unpredictable have we moved away from that a little bit or not do you think it's still kind of as close as tight as uncertain as it has been No, it's not as tight. I think that was based on, they'd done their research and the margin of victory in the Prem was tighter than the top 14 and the UFC and Super Rugby.

14:00I think we talked about this last year. I think that shifted and it became the most competitive, almost unpredictable, sorry. I still think we're there. I think it is an unpredictable league. But you don't see, that Genz try, you'd be hard pushed to find a better prop try ever. like just just the you know you can see why eddie jones had that that strategy in paris of using ellis as the kind of number eight operating out the back carry uh running back kicks because that when he's in the loose like that he's he's really really hard to stop and i thought yeah i thought bristol played in the kind of genge mentality and that tried bumping off um nick david nick david It was like Lamo Cat, wasn't it?

14:45Ridiculous. Scoring with this big grin on his face. It was fantastic. And then that Nicky Smith-Nepalala battle on Friday at Leicester. Your question is the wider, what's the image of the league? I still think it's unpredictable. I think we're seeing teams emerge. But within it, you get some great moments. You get some great battles. That Friday night, I guess picking up our scrummaging theme, our props theme from Will Collier last week, again just try that that battle i mean we spoke on friday will you're on your way up to leicester and again will was right on deadline finding that piece and you're like you can't quite you know you can't quite be sure what's going to happen which is to your point alfie and will you're like it's one of those nights where the first thing that you see can often be the way into the piece so i had that in mind as i was watching the game yeah and those two going hammer and tong and then they're arguing at half time as as to who's at fault who's bringing it down who's getting too long and lo and behold i read will's match report on full time and there you go that's sometimes your first thought's the best but it did help me and maybe this swayed me that i had david flatman sitting in front of me who was turning around and going like right what's happening there is and i was like i'm just getting like the perfect you know he does this like david attenborough thing for the scrums yeah on tnt it was excellent and like plays back to our convo we had with will collier last week about let's celebrate demystify power up the scrums and he's brilliant at it flatman and he was sitting right in front of me before he went and did some of his bits to camera and was just explaining like right well dixon's given that that way but actually and look he's trying to crowd his space and nicky smith's so strong he's trying to beat him to the to the bind and the hit and all that stuff and i was just like this is great so i was i was sitting there being like this is just going to be a nicky smith scrum piece this is awesome and I guess the extra bit of it is that Smith's leaving and he is such a Leicester Tigers prop and they are really annoyed that he's going and seemingly it was about Sale offering him a 2 plus 1 contract as opposed to Tigers offering him less time basically but people like Flatman and others will say that he's the best scrummaging loose head in the Prem and he took Laulala who's a 53 cap all black played for Toulouse everything else to the cleaners and Sale have got a hell of a signing there

17:03Alfie: and that moment where they were going up the tunnel was awesome as well they were both like the refs in between them and they were arguing who's the assistant had to like separate and it was funny because you couldn't hear what they were saying but Laulala was clearly going you've got a bent back because he was like arching his hand in front of him and stuff like that and they were shoving and pushing it was lovely I actually went if anyone's been to so our seats are behind the Crumbie Terrace in in Welford Road and it's all a bit higgledy-piggledy, but I left my seat and peered over the tunnel because I was like, if it starts properly kicking off, I might need to see this.

17:35But actually, it calmed down a bit. Yeah. But that was good fun. It was awesome. We love the props, don't we? It was awesome. It was a heated scrum debate going down the tunnel. Yeah, exactly. It was great.

17:42Elgan: But when they've mic'd up, you know, Fraser Dingwall in the past, they need to mic up the opposition props. Oh, man, can you imagine that? You know, like when we had Gengen for Sogbon when he waved him off, people still talk about that one as well. You need moments like that.

17:52Alfie: Yeah, absolutely. Also on Genge, I do wonder of all the big money signings Bristol have made in the Patlam being Bristol Bears era. I do wonder whether Ellis Genge is pound for pound the best of them. In that Semir Andrandra was awesome but often got injured. Charles Piertel was wicked to be fair but also then picked up injuries. Luatua is probably the one but he's less. Like Genge almost combines the nuts and bolts, the hardness but also with kind of flashier stuff. Luatua is very, very good but less flashy number six. but maybe the irony being is he came from the Bristol Academy and had to buy him back off, get him off Tigers.

18:28We spoke to Genge afterwards and he was, as usual, very funny but also sort of like faux annoyed because, including me, everyone kept going like, have you scored a try like that before? And he's like, why do people keep asking me that? I've scored loads like that. Don't you remember Bath, like three years ago, my comeback game? And I was like, oh, that wasn't for 50, was it? And he was like, yeah, it was. He was like, I did a quick tap, that was one and then the second one was from halfway. Like, why does everyone forget this? I'm brilliant. and then someone else had gone like oh and he set up some tries and he's like yeah three assists as well boy can do it all maybe he was funny but then he was very interesting because he was talking about which maybe slightly comes back to our quinn's thing about the vibes based approach which isn't working that he's found the transition from coming from tigers to back to bristol quite hard because he was like tigers is all sort of serious and everything really matters and he used the word cynical which maybe was slightly the wrong choice of word but i knew what he meant it's all that sort of like you've got to be hard and like it's old school almost old school whereas bristol was like laughing and joking in the warm-up and a bit kind of loose and maybe some of that comes from the natural flair of the fijian guys they've got in there the other islanders and he's like i found that quite difficult because it's it's almost like you're not allowed to be that relaxed whereas now i'm having fun with them in the warm-up and it's all part of it and that came through with his try which he called to himself and pat lamb said afterwards i was sitting in the Dan's going, no, we've got a preset play, which he loves.

19:52But then he went, oh, fair play.

19:53Alfie: Good on you, Genji. Well done. Yeah, a brilliant win for Bristol. Want to bring it on to Exeter because they are fast becoming one of the stories of the opening seven rounds that we've had so far. But Elgin, let me put this to you. If I look at the table, it's split. In a 10-team league, five teams have a winning record. Five teams have a losing record. So from the top, Bath, Exeter, Northampton, Leicester and Bristol are the winning records. Bristol and Leicester have lost twice. The other three teams have lost just once and Exeter and Northampton also have that draw as well. Saracens are in sixth and they're maybe the team that you might say could come into it.

20:29Alfie: But is that already shaping up, do you think, as the five teams that are going to be battling for top four? Or is it too early to say?

20:36Elgan: It certainly looks like it. It looks like certainly, you know, we've gone back in time a bit with having Gloucester, Newcastle, Curter Drift. And then certainly looks like it's going to come from those top six teams and everyone else might be out of the running already. I think what's mentioning Exeter, what's strange about them is two years ago, they had that bit of a surprise season when it was what we were dubbing it, Exeter 3.0. I think we were not quite 2.0, but 3.0. They had a bit of a surprise season with a young team. And then people thought they would kick on last year. And then they just fell off a cliff with those that start to the season.

21:08Elgan: Again, I think if you look back at those results, and I thought this at the time as well, they actually lost a lot of very narrow games to start off with. So it's one of those things where you just get on the right side of a few early games and it can almost change your entire season. We've seen them come back from behind now with two great comeback victories. And I think Rob Baxter said afterwards, I think he said something like, you know, we're not there yet. We still don't have a team with great rugby IQ, but the lads keep on pulling it out of somewhere. You know, it's sort of seat of the pants that we've been talking about.

21:35Elgan: They've managed that twice now. So if you're looking at Exeter, certainly they're having the season this year that I think people might have thought they would have had last year.

21:41Alfie: I always think a really good barometer for a team is winning away against Saracens, even though I know Sarri's aren't the team they once were. But like Bristol, for example, one of their two defeats this year was Sarri's away and they got absolutely battered, which they often do. There are so many teams go to the Stone X and don't win. For Exeter to go and win and win in the manner in which they did, I think says an awful lot about how much they have improved. Yeah, and maybe it's just the maturation of some of these younger guys. as Elgin said like even though Daft Jenkins has been around for a while he's basically professional rugby career like lots of the Welsh guys is losing all the time and he had a season last year where he lost a lot for Chiefs as well but he seems to now be clanging and banging like he should do and almost like there are others like Ethan Roots have sort of stepped back up if that makes sense because he had that season where he made the England squad and then drifted a bit and now he looks like the Ethan Roots have got picked in that Italy game and is the real leader there.

22:39And also, they just have some absolute monsters. People like Dweber and guys like that, they just have some heavy, heavy guys in the front five. Iketau's a very good player. Tom Hooper's in the set-up as well now, like two class players. I mean, Hooper, sneakily, so I was asking Jeff Parling about Exeter because obviously their next Leicester game is against the Chiefs away, which is going to be a hell of a tough one there. And he was talking about Hooper, who obviously he coached with the Wallabies, and he's 125 kilos. He doesn't really look like that. Big guy. Greg Fisselow is another one. He's trained with England a few times and he's been on the wider radar.

23:17It feels like they spotted a potential with him, but he's still young. It feels this season like he's taken a step forward as well at number eight. Henry Slade is just, as always, so critical to them. Harvey Skinner having been derided on this pod as much as anywhere else. By you. By me. he's improved they're all round better but I think if you play with Stephen Varney's been good as well if you're playing with Iketao and Slade outside you that's Favre Boso in your back three Favre Boso and Brad Bambo makes a massive difference yeah

23:52Alfie: final one on the prem before we move on just wanted to flag 2nd of January start of the year Newcastle at home to Gloucester like Newcastle must have that circle that's a horrible away trip right at the start of 2026 for Gloucester isn't it yeah and Gloucester I feel like they they have been in this spot for a long time but they're they're now have done it for longer they've I've they've always in my head until the last couple of years been in a similar boat as Bath where you're like what is wrong there like this is a rugby city there's nothing else going on in sport they almost made top amazing amazing fans yeah yeah they they almost have never well they haven't accidentally got it right like quins have accidentally got it right a couple of times over the last few years they have made they had a danny cipriani appearance in a playoff semi and got smashed at saris didn't they they chucked the ball around loads last year and it was great to watch and thomas williams was the man of the season wasn't he but they didn't quite make it and look you go on social media and gloucester fans are very, very unhappy about George Givington, who's now been there for a long time.

25:00He's almost had like two or three different iterations of that team where they were super front five and more, and then they went, actually, no, right, let's get James Lightfoot Brown, the attack coach, involved a bit more and chuck the ball around, and now you kind of look across their squad, and I think, I'm always looking at Gloucester's squads and going, that looks really good if they can get them all on the pitch, and they haven't been able to so far this season, but you think, it felt like they turned a corner perhaps against Quinns but then maybe you go well that was another day where Quinns got off the bus didn't fancy it it was a bit cold and then thought well we'll just lose that and go home so yeah I just it's always been an odd one with Gloucester what's going to be the catalyst to get them out of this right this is a segue probably into the transfers conversation but we think there's a level playing field across the prem because there's a salary cap but not every team has a budget that would allow them to spend up to the salary cap and Gloucester don't spend 6.4 million every on their squad they haven't had the the budget to do so and I think that's that's evident and I think if you look at a north of sale recently but they're trying to they've committed to spending a lot more next season you can see they're in the market for all these top players and a lot of them have been up to visit and haven't signed but they've signed Nicky Smith as Will said earlier Gloucester now they've lost Thomas Williams but they've signed Jack Morgan and Dowie Lake for next season.

26:24Dan Robson, decent replacement for Thomas Williams. I think a lot of it is investment. So your comparison there with Bath and Gloucester is Bath have often spent money but haven't necessarily spent it very intelligently. Now they have over the last two or three years not only spent it wisely but structured it wisely as we've previously discussed and you look at sale have reached so is it four four semis out of five i think and a final but they all know they've all seen what bath have done and how you how you need depth i need a bench all the the tropes of pro rugby that we've discussed they are now in the market they're committed to spend more they're trying to recruit a deeper stronger squad Gloucester the only way is to invest in in in the team I think and I still think the league is to go back to your question earlier it's it's unpredictable but we are we are reaching a point where if sale can't kick on now then they will be left behind for this season but they're already planning for next year because these teams realize that that there are other clubs who are going to spend like max out to the cap and Gloucester don't.

27:39Unless you have like Northampton had, where they didn't max to the cap, but they had a golden crop of academy players, plus they picked up Finn Smith from Worcester, similar to what Saracen's had with that group of the Vunapolas and Farrells. If you don't have a golden core that you've brought through, it's very hard to compete if you don't spend big.

28:02Alfie: Well, on that note, you may have seen Alex has been writing about transfers and players moving clubs. It's been a big talking point over the last week or so as we look ahead to next year. So we'll have a break. We'll also come on some of your emails about how to restructure Europe at the end of the pod. But up next, we'll have a chat about the goings on in the transfer market.

28:27Alfie: Checking out online? Apple Pay makes it simple. When you tap the Apple Pay button, you can review your card information and shipping details. Need to make a change? Just tap to update your details before you pay. Then, all that's left, simply authenticate your purchase with Face ID to check out in seconds. Make online shopping a breeze with Apple Pay. A BetterHelp ad. Hold on. One second. I just need to...

29:06Alfie: What if you had a room where no one interrupts? No notifications. No expectations. Just space to talk. With BetterHelp, therapy happens in a space that's yours. Visit betterhelp.com slash randompodcast for 10 % off your first month of online therapy. Is your kid's birthday coming up? Don't stress the prep. The Party Shop at Michaels is your one-stop shop for everything from bluey to rodeo. Transform your space into a birthday wonderland with dream-worthy tablescapes and decor starting at$0.99. Plus, get free helium inflation on select balloon styles. Whether you're crafting a one-of-a-kind bash or grabbing the essentials, Michaels has everything to make their big day legendary.

29:52Alfie: Shop now and order ahead for delivery or in-store pickup. Michaels, everything to celebrate anything.

30:01Alfie: so alex the the title of of your piece last week was why are there so many top players on the move in the gallagher prem it does feel like at the moment ahead of next year there's a lot of really interesting like transfer news and players moving clubs ahead of next season well it's a busier market than anyone can can remember those who who work in it from the coaching side and the and the agent side it's a busier market than ever but it's also a higher profile market. If you think of all the intra-prem transfers, the Thomas Williams' for example to Saracens and then you've got Tom Willis leaving Saracens, you've got Joe Marchant coming back to the Prem at Sale, Nicky Smith moving within the league, the two Welsh captains coming to Gloucester.

30:46George Martin. George Martin yeah and then there are plenty of others, as I mentioned Sale, a lot of players have been up to visit Sale, Charlie Cunningham South, George Martin himself, Elliot Daly, Alex Wazowski is the latest connected there there's more movement certainly clubs and players exploring more movement than ever before Furbank we think is off to Harlequins he's probably a good place to start because about this time last year Northampton went to Saracens as champions and lost and it felt that day like that was the end of their title defence they were too far off the pace I asked Phil Dowson that day about just how hard it's been to to I guess rebuild because they win the league with Lewis Ludlam Courtney Laws Alex Moon Ethan Waller's in the team three of them moved to France and and Waller retired and and he just said that it's the structure that we play under it's the salary cap structure where every year you have to chop the head off your squad essentially because you can't afford to keep everyone and in that year it was it was those big names Ludlam and Laws it looks like for next season George Furbank will be the one because they've they've re-signed Alex Mitchell they've re-signed Finn Smith they've re-signed Fraser Dingwall and George Hendy and so they've had to quite brutally look at the the makeup of their squad well who is the one who's the most expendable I guess he's 29 he's the England fullback but they have options there they've obviously decided they can't afford to lose Finn Smith and Alex Mitchell and had injuries as well hasn't he furbank he's had injuries so if you look at that saracens golden crop i remember being at saracens when mark mccall said not sure how we can afford to keep them all and then they found they found a way to keep them all and got themselves into a whole pile of trouble so north hampton can't afford to keep all of that that golden generation and so furbank is the one who's who's now on the market sounds like he's moving to to quins i think he'd be good for quins he's got a connection with london his girlfriend might live in london so he's suddenly on the market in a way that Northampton, you wouldn't ordinarily want to trade him, but they're dealing with a budget.

32:49Saints are not dealing with the upper limit of the salary cap. It's their own budget. So you're seeing that that's a big factor. I think, as I mentioned earlier before the break, that the Bath factor is significant. So the investment that they've put into that squad and the way they've managed and structured it with the depth, they have world-class players, they have brilliant academy players or youngsters, they've got incredible depth. So if you are up sale and you think we need to make the next step, that's why Alex Anderson is saying we need four or five world-class players. So they're in the market for new talent because they're trying to win on the field and they're backed by the Oranges.

33:27Simon Orange sold his company for a billion pounds this year. So money isn't the option. It isn't the problem there now. It's who can they attract into the club. You've also got the R360 element where there were players who had committed or committed an intent to go to R360. That hasn't happened. So now they're on the market in a way they hadn't, no one anticipated. I think Louis Rizami is a classic example of that, where he came back from the NFL, signed a one-year deal with Bristol with a view to joining R360. That's now been put on ice, at the very least, for two years. He's now on the market in a way that no one had anticipated.

34:07And would probably go for far less cash now. Yeah. Because he was waiting for the big contract. And now you go, ooh, I've waited a bit too long. Arthur City doesn't exist. So I'm going to have to take a third of what I could have had before, perhaps. It sounds like it. And December is the month where, I was asking Sam Vesti, it's the hardest month for coaches because they're getting players back from internationals who have to have a week off in the first three weeks. They're jumping between competitions. Plus you've got, you're either having to tell players that they're leaving or you're having to negotiate contracts with players so that their mind is, there's a risk that their mind is elsewhere.

34:43Now, Josh Kemeny's in that position didn't look like his mind was elsewhere for Saints, but it's an unsettling part of the year. And then you add in, why might players want to move? I don't think George Furbank would choose to leave Northampton. George Hendy had options to leave Northampton for more money, but has decided to stay because he won't be in the same price bracket as Furbank. but he's playing with his mates, but he's also playing with coaches who he believes can get him to the next level. Now, for him, the next level would be an England selection, an England cap. He's in a place where he feels that best suits him.

35:22There are other big-name players who have moved and will move for reasons that might be coaching-related, it might be welfare-related, it might be that a club has a better medical set-up, looks after their players differently. All these factors come into it. Sometimes it's about winning. I heard that like Santiago Carreras moved from Gloucester to Bath the money wasn't the factor he was moving from a team that couldn't compete to a team that had just won the league so there are there are rugby reasons there are often welfare physio medical reasons and there are for some players there are money reasons like a Nicky Smith decision he's got or a length of contract thing which I think has come into it with Furbank as well yeah so I think the Furbank one Saints could only offer him a short contract because of their salary or their budget management and Quinns could offer him more.

36:10So there's all these things come into it. Clubs who can't afford to keep certain players, other clubs who realise if they want to compete for the title, they need to invest in their squad. And then the player perspective of where are my interests best served, either financially or on the field or medically. Chuck all that into the pot in December and you get what we've had in the last few weeks, which is the busiest transfer market that anyone who's involved in it can remember.

36:39Alfie: Well, kind of as you've touched upon already, particularly with the furback thing, it's a skill in who you let go and who you keep, isn't it? What are the pieces that you have to keep to build the team around and what are the pieces that even though you want to keep them, actually you're better off letting them go. So look at Sale, like, Sale had to keep George Ford. So George, R360 obviously were interested in him. France would have been interested in him if he'd given up on his England dream. But Sale, like it starts with George Ford. because if they release George Ford then their whole transfer this period now is not releasing him if he chooses to go somewhere else.

37:12They've got to get a 10. Where do you get a 10 like George Ford? The brains out on the field there's only a handful of players of that level who are around. Finn Russell he's not available. Brian Barrett's not available. Pollard. Sassan Feinberg and Gonzalo's not available. Intermac's not available. You're talking of Jalabé. You're talking of like a small group Ford is one of them so whatever he needed whatever they had to do to keep him they had to keep him and from there they can now try and build their next squad their next iteration they're going to lose to Dupreea brothers but it's built around Ford now if you take the NFL if you don't have a quarterback who's in the top element the top echelon of quarterbacks you're really not going to win so that but if you've got one who's really competitive and then you can add the weapons around him then you might challenge.

38:04And that's where I think, so what Sale and I are trying to do, their first piece of business was they had to get George Ford to re-sign and now they can try and build. What I think would be fascinating with all of this is that I think through the Saracens saga and everything else, there's been so much cloak and dagger about the salary cap and how people manage it. And in years gone by, you'd probably say that's because people were fiddling with it. Whereas now where it's quite difficult to, because they've put in so many more regs, do you think this would be fascinating for someone to and it's all a bit sort of granular maybe but this takes so much effort and detail imagine the spreadsheets imagine all the like tiny little things they've got to work out to the pennies so that they don't go over the cap like i would love to spend like a day with someone who does all of this stuff yeah it's eqp do a piece about it eqp balances eqp money that they would get from the rfu that that all factors in the kind of the all the various bonuses that you can essentially accrue credits along the way credits not bonuses credits that you can um you can build if you've got enough eqp players if you've got enough in the england squad it all adds on your point will's right and mad like it'd be fascinating if the if you could pull back the curtain on how bath have structured their squad because actually it's clever like it's intelligent isn't it if they're doing it properly you think that's amazingly clever management yeah and the club I forgot to mention earlier is obviously Newcastle haven't they've signed Hoskins 2-2 they haven't gone big yet in signings but they are with the backing they now have they are in the market and they're wanting to spend up to salary cap having spent the least of any club for the last year of time what do we think it was about two and a bit three million it was half so it was a third of the cap yeah it was no more than half definitely depending on the year they're now in the market too so them being around and with the Red Bull backing that adds some money any player could go when I was going to Newcastle they could offer me this and the league is getting to a point where the average salary is now back where it was pre-Covid which is having dipped just over£100 ,000 per player the average is back where it was pre-Covid but the squad make-up is different so the senior squads are smaller and the academy numbers are bigger so therefore if you're a senior player there are fewer places for you but if you get one you're going to get paid more final point

40:33Alfie: on the whole squad building thing in the prem which i'm really interested in is i agree with you in that it always seems to me you nail down a top quality 10 because they're so hard to find i'm surprised and i'm sure it is far more complicated than it is for me to sit here on a podcast and raise the point you don't see more people then saying okay we've got our 10 and putting close to all your resources into your pack because i think there are so many teams like we've mentioned them on this pod quins and their decline is the decline in their power i think sale and they're having a tough season from the sale team that got to the prem final massive decline in power in their pack and some of that is injury as well some of it's injury some of it's going to be players not wanting to resign and moving on and it's difficult things but i'm always it interests me because externally as someone that obviously doesn't know what's going on it always feels i'm always like just go and get the biggest best tight head you can get the biggest best second row you can and you work and work out the rest i think there's so many players that if you put the right structure the right front foot ball for certain players in the back line they will look good and like for some reason josh bassett is always the player that comes to mind for me when i think of this in that he was a really good solid premiership player put him in that really good Wasps team and he was one of the top try scorers in the Prem, lose the power in that Wasps team and he was nowhere near it.

41:49Alfie: I think there are players in your backline that you can get the most out of if you invest in your front farm essentially. It's not going to happen because these players won't be available but if you're Newcastle or the one where you're looking at it and going this is proper fantasy rugby, start from zero like who could you recruit if you just had all the money in the world no budget and you're right, you would probably go right well we'll get Richie Mwanga or Sasha Feinberg and Gonozulu at 10 and then we'll get Thomas Dutoy at tight head Oxenchair at loose head and Will Skelton in the second row and we're going to just beat everybody because we're going to have an amazing pack and then Sasha's going to take the mickey out of everyone out wide but it's fascinating Elgin isn't it?

42:28Elgan: On that theme of the intrigue that goes behind it all I think the one thing we haven't mentioned is I think of a club like Rassi 92 and I feel like they just see a name and they think yep we'll have them and we'll figure out how they work but Tom Jordan who's playing fly half for Bristol at the weekend you know Bristol were looking at him before he made his Scotland debut. I think he signed two weeks after his Scotland debut when suddenly people realised, oh, this bloke called Tom Jordan is quite good. Oh, Bristol just signed him. But obviously they had tracked him for a while prior to that stage because they have a mountain of data that shows players from around the world and they found him as someone that could play in the style of way that they wanted.

43:04Elgan: So they almost find the numbers behind an individual. Then they add their rugby intellect and their eyes to look at this person and see if they're available. and with Tom Jordan they almost signed an idea of a person rather than the person themselves and they found Tom Jordan was the man that could do that for them whereas like we say clubs like Rassian they just go ah yes we'll have him to be our flyer and see what happens next. That's like Brentford a bit isn't it? They're famous for doing that money ball. Brighton as well yeah. But like even Tony for example who's now gone was overperforming.

43:35Ivan. Ivan Tony sorry was overperforming for Peterborough was it? And scoring loads of goals there. Yeah. And sort of not just he's scoring loads of goals in a lower league. It was more all of his numbers were proving that he was outperforming his potential kind of thing. And so therefore he was a great money ball signing for them. And then they've cashed out and made... Did they actually sell him to Saudi or did he just go because of the betting disaster? I think they sold him.

44:01Alfie: I might be wrong there. I can't remember now. End of his contract. Yeah. The position by salary in rugby, Freyhoff is the most expensive player. then this is according to the most recent salary cap report then back row, centre, lock, prop, fullback, hooker, wing scrum half being funny that wings are so low isn't it? Do you remember Mark Evans before he moved to Fiji was on the pod talking about the NRL salary cap and how it's much more banded like if you play at a certain position you're only going to get somewhere within that band and wings were one of the cheaper bands in the NRL That's funny, when they score all the tries, because they're on the edge of the fifth tackle.

44:41Yeah, I guess, amazing pace or whatever. It'd be interesting to see how or if that evolves as the game changes a bit. But what surprises me there is that fly half-back, row centre and lock are all paid, on average, more than props. Centre I'm particularly interested in. Next Monday, we're going to do our World 15 for everyone over Christmas, and we'll get onto it then. But centre, I feel like, is a weird position at the moment. whereas in the prem it seems like they're being paid very well but maybe that's dragged up by certain individuals they count as centers well that's yeah that's because that's the other thing is if you look fly half is obvious why that's the most and then back row center lock prop if you if you if some of those centers are sort of 10 12s yeah then you're then you're straight into the pack to make your point i feel like you know back row lock prop there's a lot more of those yeah so you're going to have to invest you pay more and allocate more resources to those positions than the fly half and centres.

45:39There are literally more numbers required. And so therefore, the bulk of your investment would go into the pack. But that's why it's difficult, because we've seen a lot of props that have moved clubs on a lot of money, and they're not that good, but they play in that position.

45:55Elgan: It's interesting that Scrum half is last, and they touch the ball the most. I assume in France it would be a different story. Yeah, yeah. But also, I wonder if Scrum halves tend not to be versatile. They tend to play scrum half for nothing else unless there's someone like Cobus Reinhardt, Grant Williams who go on the wing. If you're a fly half, chances are you can probably play 12-15 as well. Centre as well, you can cover perhaps a variety of positions. Yeah, comparing England to France would be interesting because You'd imagine their tight heads are way up there. Their tight heads would be way up there but their nines would be on a part...

46:26I guess maybe Dupont would skew the figures a bit but... Well, Leucou and... The nine money compared to the 10 money in France I would be surprised if nines were were ahead of the tens on average just because of the balance of how they play Just thinking off the top of my head if you look across the Prem quite a lot of the nines are young they're often or like the second nine will be the 20 year old who's through the academy they won't have like a senior figure nine on the bench unless they're like Danny Care last season who was just about to retire for example I find all this quite interesting isn't it I feel like we could

46:59Alfie: spend hours talking about this and going in different directions and pondering different things in the interests of time i better move us on because last week you were all discussing europe the structure of the champions cup does it work how do you fix it and tabling a few different suggestions and our listeners got in touch as you asked them to do so thank you to all of you that emailed the ruck at the times.co.uk i'm going to start with gareth's email which was an amazingly detailed breakdown of his version what he would do so gareth apologies in advance for not going through it in absolute detail.

47:32Alfie: I'll try and do my best to summarise the breakdown, but thank you for the pitch. So it was to have it as a dedicated six-week kind of Champions Cup in May and June. So as you were discussing, after the end of the domestic seasons, he had that as 16 teams qualifying, four from England, four from France, and eight from the URC. And then the group stage is kind of the traditional pools of four. The four matches, they have two home, two away, and then you go into quarterfinal, semifinal, final, kind of a destination, champions weekend in there as well. That is the brief version of it because it was a lot of detail.

48:11Alfie: But Elgin, I know Gareth's obviously a man after your own heart, isn't he? The structures and the breakdown of a different competition.

48:17Elgan: I'd doff my cap to any man with an Excel spreadsheet mapping a sports season. I had at least two, so well done to him. Even if I don't quite agree with it, he deserves all the presents at Christmas time.

48:28Alfie: What do you disagree with?

48:30Elgan: Well, my idea for Europe is a 32-team knockout with home and away first three rounds. And that's my idea, and I'm sticking to it. Two legs. Two legs. It's got to be home and away. It has to be home and away in Europe. So like an FA Cup. And how are we doing the seedings? Have we got... Free-for-all. Free-for-all, okay. Toulouse v Leinster in the first round. Toulouse v Leinster in the first round. Free-for-all. Lovely stuff. You're not running any accounts department, any of these clubs, are you? All these home games, they're like, what? We don't have any anymore. The head of finance is going, what are we doing for these blank weekends?

49:01We've been knocked out in the first round. That would be great though, wouldn't it?

49:04Alfie: It'd be awesome. Yeah, it'd be awesome. Remind me, because this next email from Richard said he didn't like Marco Mazzotti's idea. Just remind me of what that was. Is this the Sharks owner? Yeah, that was to create a European Super League, basically. Right, okay, fine. So that would sit above the top 14 and the Prem and bring together all the best clubs. As someone on social media pointed out, it's rich for him to say, given where the sharks currently are in the URC. As long as it involves the South Africans. Yeah, exactly. It was a point made that it would suit the South Africans more than anyone else, which is fair.

49:37But it was an interesting starting point for the whole debate about how do you supercharge an ailing European Cup?

49:46Alfie: Well, Richard said he hated that idea. He liked the idea of a European bloc in principle, but for me and many others, I suspect it doesn't work because I like being able to break away trips up over the years. He's obviously one of the fans that does kind of do European away trips. I get that. And it is nice to drop in a European round for that reason. But it just makes the competition. It's easier somewhere after Christmas or in the new year. It's just this early part of the season where you come out of November, one week of Prem, two weeks of Europe, back into Prem. And those first two rounds of Europe, as we've discussed, how there's no jeopardy, there's no interest.

50:23it's just really hard I get where he's coming from but I just feel that we're going to have to have a block at the end of the season where you build into a bigger competition may work we'll find out what year is the first Club World Cup? 28 I think we'll have to wait which is the second edition of the Nations Champ as well well we'll see how exciting

50:44Alfie: we'll see I think the thing you just mentioned there Alex of the people with the spreadsheets in the accounts department of saying where when I think about the Champions Cup and the Challenge Cup at the moment it feels to me like too many of the reasons to keep it is because they need the gate receipts like it is they need the games essentially rather than actually the sporting competition necessarily working in the way they should which I think is a problem just final email from Paul who he said he thinks the clue is in the name from an excitement quality point of view I can't see any good has ever come from expanding a competition in any sport you want quality keep it to the best in Europe keywords best and Europe you can come up with all the permutations you like but ultimately top 8, 16 at a push local historic rivalry with knockout jeopardy is what you need to excite the fans well I mean I think we'll see we all agree that the Champions Cup is too big this year we'll have well sorry the year coming we'll have the Football World Cup which will be bigger than ever and then the year after that we'll have the Rugby World Cup which will be bigger than ever and we'll have to see whether the expanded version of those events will work.

51:52I think in the rugby one, we know that in any format, you're going to get a couple of 90 point, 100 point games. I think he's obviously referring there to Super Rugby, which expanded so much to the point that it fell in on itself.

52:03Alfie: A lot of ground covered today. Before we go, Elgin, I know you want to mention, there's no way we can end the pod without you giving a little mention to the Dragons.

52:11Elgan: The Dragons, yes. Two wins in a row. I mean, we talk about what Europe can do to a team. Dragons beat Lyon, and then suddenly they beat Connors as well. So, you know, we've talked about what it's like for Newcastle fans down at the Red Bulls. They're getting big crowds at the moment. Down at the Red Bulls. Down at the Red Bulls. Isn't that what people say? I think that's what they say around Newcastle, down at the Red Bulls. You go Red Bulls this weekend. Hey, it's selling out. Yeah, it is. And, you know, fans of a lot of clubs, they don't have many good moments to celebrate. So a moment in Welsh Rugby for the Rodney Parade faithful to celebrate two wins in a row recently.

52:46Alfie: So brilliant win for the Dragons. I know I'd let you have that one, Elgin. We should also mention quickly as well, actually, sports personality of the year, Ellie Kildun coming second, which is not something that happens regularly at all for rugby to be represented.

53:01Elgan: No, spotty is a very strange event. It depends on whether it's a team sport, an individual sport, how close to December it happens, what channel it happens on. I always say it jumped the shark the first time it ever happened because they gave it to Chris Chataway, not Roger Bannister. Chris Chataway was Roger Bannister's pacemaker when he did the four-minute mile. They gave it to him, not Bannister, because he beat a Russian on TV in December. Anyway, that was in 1954, and we're in 2025 now. The bare facts for rugby are, because it's a team sport, it's difficult for rugby players to get noticed really johnny wilkinson 2003 is the only rugby player who's ever won martin johnson was the runner-up for that year other than that barry john and willie john mcbride great lions tours of 71 74 they came third will carling when he capped in the grand slam in 1991 he came second mentioned wilkinson and johnson lee halfpenny was the most recent in 2013 when he was six nations player of the tournament and lions man of the series in 2013 so it doesn't happen very often that the rugby player is in contention and ellie kildan i think everyone expected rory mccleroy to win you know finally completing the career grand slam but rugby should celebrate that ellie kildan was able to come second in that vote runner

54:14Alfie: up i yeah i so sports personality is always funny as well because you have some people that are absolutely furious about like who wins who doesn't that sort of thing i didn't have a problem with rory mcelroy winning given his achievements this year where i did feel that potentially there could be some debate and conversation was the team of the year award so it went to team europe winning the rider cup whereas i thought given the fact that they were crowned world champions that they've won 30 games in a row that they are so all conquering and dominant whether the red roses maybe could have felt a little hard done by there very much so i think

54:45Elgan: when when the shortlist well before the shortlist was announced but everyone assumed it would be Lionesses, Red Roses or Europe. Some of our Times writers were asked to say why they thought a particular team should win. And to be fair, a lot of the writers did think Europe should win. But the case for Red Roses, as you say, yes, women's rugby is at an early stage of development. It's not a particularly level playing field in terms of resources, support, etc. But equally, this is a team that's won 33 games in a row and been world champions. So they can only beat what's what's opposite of them and their aim for the next four years until the 2029 world cup is to possibly go unbeaten again and not lose again so maybe they'll win in four years time well that's

55:25Alfie: the problem isn't it is it's kind of like you look at the red roses and as you say some of the teams or a lot of the teams they're playing are amateur it's not a level playing field with resources and professionalism but you're almost like what more can you do you have not lost a game you could make the conversation that they're the most dominant team in any sport in the world at the moment in terms of win percentage and that sort of thing they're world champions at home world cup where the pressure was on to actually get the job done i'm yeah i'm not sure what more that they could have done really isn't that quite interesting that you mentioned lee halfpenny the last line series that was won and this time i didn't watch spotty but i imagine it wasn't mentioned very strongly and there was no representation from any lion at all does that tell us something about cut through and definitely the significance of that series definitely definitely it goes back That's all the things that we talked about when we were in Australia, what we talked to Ben Calvary about at the end of it, about projecting the Lions and the importance of the Lions and how it was received back in the UK.

56:23And I just don't think Mauro Toji, Lions winning captain, there are not very many of them either. Certainly not alive. And on that shortlist, there were two Lionesses and no Lions. There was no Lions in the team of the year. if I was Ben Calverley if I was the Lions I'd be I'd take that as a signal that their achievement wasn't wasn't recognised as widely as as they would expect it to be and perhaps how lazily how how widely they just assumed it it would be didn't have the cut through we talked about it through the tour into the wider public because one of the things about spotty Elgin is it's you know your it's the classic reason why the Nations Championship being on ITV is brilliant for rugby because it appeals to the the passing sports viewer spotty is is that in like it just captures it's the passing sports fan who has watched the six nations the lions is on pay tv and then the way they carried themselves didn't just didn't break through into the into the general sporting conversation i don't think and that's that's therefore therefore you get to spotty and they don't get any recognition at all it's a it's a salutary lesson i'd say for ben

57:34Elgan: lovely just on the subject of martin johnson to show how weird it is he lost he didn't even podium in 99 sorry i've used podium as a verb terrible thing to have done he didn't even register on the podium in 97 and who won greg ruzetski because he lost a grand slam final that's why he won spot it's a strange it's a strange award it is and the red roses won't lose any sleep because they won the game that mattered but equally you think what more what very lastly just on the lines did you know well i think we did know they they sold a whiskey this year would you like to guess if you if you are listening to this and you've got like three days left to buy a present i wouldn't recommend it how much do you reckon they've sold there can i just clarify just the 1888 whiskey yes that they were promoting during the tour on the same days they didn't send any players to that is the same way robert sedansgrave captain who died in 1888 just Just to clarify, it's the same.

58:27Yeah, that is the same whiskey. That whiskey, okay. 46 % ABV. It goes to the Matt Hampson, My Name's Doddy Woodenspoon, Delalia Rugby Works, Loose Heads Charity. Okay. I'm not sure. I don't know. 10 % of the value of every bottle sold donated. How much is it retailing for currently? I can add to cart right now if you want. £12.99. Elgin? 25. Quid. And? Alex? I'm assuming not very much. Oh, yeah, tell her. £125.

58:58so I'm not sure they're worried about being in spotty has it been distilling since 1888 in a barrel I hope how big's the bottle that's a 70cl just normal 100 so I don't what I was going to say is I'm not sure they're worried that they're not on the spotty podium wow I was going to get you all one for Christmas but I'm not not now it's£125 I've done the stretch to the budget I'll have a Pendairin instead I don't like whiskey anyway get me a gin

59:21Alfie: alright good stuff we will leave it there just to flag though very quickly that our next episode next Monday is the eagerly anticipated, the unifying, no complaints at all, the Rucks World 15 Team of the Year. I love that it's eagerly anticipated. Is that just by us? Yeah, pretty much. I don't think our listeners are going, come on. I'm eagerly anticipating the pelters we're going to get afterwards because we haven't picked enough from Ireland, which will happen last time. South Africa or England. My cliffhanger for this episode is, are there going to be any Irish players in our World 15? That'll annoy people if there aren't.

59:55Alfie: yeah they haven't had it well i suppose the lions saw heavily irish but they haven't didn't have a great year six nations the lions hasn't cut through alfie well exactly and like if if there aren't 28 south africans i think we're probably going to be getting pelters anyway oh we're in trouble yeah so i mean people can email us the ruck at the times.co.uk for all of the selections that they disagree with but that will be next monday and then your first episode in january just to flag uh right now rather than monday the fifth is going to be later on in the week on the sixth or seventh because we have a little trip planned.

1:00:25Alfie: I'll leave it at that little cliffhanger for you. But thank you very much for listening. We'll be back with you next Monday and have a wonderful Christmas. We'll see you next time. Is your kid's birthday coming up? Don't stress the prep. The Party Shop at Michael's is your one-stop shop for everything from bluey to rodeo. Transform your space into a birthday wonderland with dream-worthy tablescapes and decor starting at 99 cents. Plus, get free helium inflation on select balloon styles. Whether you're crafting a one-of-a-kind bash or grabbing the essentials, Michaels has everything to make their big day legendary.

1:01:01Alfie: Shop now and order ahead for delivery or in-store pickup. Michaels, everything to celebrate anything. Hey, Pablo Torre here. As a sports journalist, I've covered global sports for many years now. And there is one thing that I can promise you. Nothing compares to the World Cup. And this time it is even better thanks to McDonald's You have the chance to take home one of nine legendary cups When you order the FIFA World Cup meal The cups feature some of the biggest legends in football Like David Beckham, Terry Henry, and Ronaldinho Christian Pulisic, Lamine Yamal, and Alfonso Davies Right now, get one of nine legendary cups When you order the FIFA World Cup meal Only at McDonald's At participating McDonald's, only for a limited time While supplies last, all rights reserved Copyright 2026 McDonald's at the FIFA World Cup 2026.