Have the First Nations & Pasifika XV given the Wallabies a blueprint to beat the Lions?

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1:11Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. It's another late evening here in Australia. It's another empty stadium. this time Marvel. I'm Alfie Reynolds and once again joined by Alex Lowe. Hi, Alex. Hello. And Will Kelleher. Hello. And back on the ruck is Owen Slott. How are you, Slotty? Hello. Great to be back again. Thank you. We're pitch side this time. Usually we're up in the talk sport commentary box, somewhere in the eaves of the stadium, but we're down pitch side in the Marvel where they're... De-rigging, I think they call this. De-rigging is what they call it.

1:45They're basically hosing the rugby lines off the pitch in order to get it ready for the Aussie rules here on Friday. The EFL, which is going to be Essendon against the Western Bulldogs, which is my team against yours. How are you calling that, boys? Who's winning? Well, I'm a massive Bulldogs fan, as we all know. And Alex is the hipster choice at Essendon. Well, they've lost six in a row. We basically have committed by buying some merch at the MCG today that was on sale. No, I've been a Bulldog all my life. I'm sorry you have, yeah. I bleed blue, white and red, if you cut me. and just that bulldog spirit just kind of comes through on the ruck, doesn't it?

2:22So after the AFL on Friday,

2:24Alfie: that'll be your next podcast when we look back at the AFL. So look, roof is still closed. They're spraying the paint off the pitch and we'll look back on the Lions' victory over the First Nations and Pacifica 15, their final tour game and the best tour game by an absolute mile, wasn't it, on this tour so far? Loved it. But firstly, we're all really enjoying Melbourne, aren't we? Like, lovely bars, lovely coffee spots, nice river, Ferris wheel, lights, all that sort of stuff, cool walk to the ground. And then we got a brilliant game. The First Nations Pacifica guys came with fire and fury and niggle and physicality and all the things that the Wallabies just totally lacked.

3:02It was lovely. Yeah, but it shows how much emotion can get you a long way in rugby because we saw an invitation or 15 in Adelaide, the Australian-New Zealand team, who were just a collection of players who came, didn't really have anything to fight for, and just folded. Here, you had a team who had spent the week exchanging stories of their cultures and their backgrounds, and Kirtley Beals had spoken brilliantly about the importance of a team like this, and how he'd love it to continue, the sort of an equivalent of the Maori All Blacks, just a team that's built on culture, and they were fighting for something out there, and they pushed the Lions, they tested the Lions in a way they haven't been tested in Australia, physically at the set piece and forced the Lions, I think, into compounding error upon error.

3:49Suddenly it went from 14-0 to 14-0. The Lions knew they were in a fight.

3:53Alfie: Which is really interesting to me because it was such a contrast to Australia in the first test. We don't have to go back over the first test, but I've been thinking, surely the first test of a Lions series at home, and they didn't look like they were in an emotional place, which I thought they would be, like an emotional place to be able to get even more out of their performance. I think they have to find that obviously going into the second test. But we've touched upon it there. Have this team tonight, Slotty, given the Wallabies the blueprint of how you have to go at this Lions team to cause them problems?

4:26Well, yeah, kind of, I suppose. But the Wallabies aren't going to suddenly come out playing like Pacific Islanders. I mean, they can't really. But, I mean, you've touched on it already. The emotional side of things, I think the Wallabies might have watched that and feel a bit embarrassed that they couldn't get. I mean, they didn't appear to get to that level, and there's no reason why they shouldn't. And yes, in terms of the blueprint of how to play, I mean, what the team today did was they disrupted. They made it really hard. They made the players a bit scared physically. They just didn't allow the Lions the armchair ride that the Wallabies did.

5:00I think we said last week that we were surprised that the Wallabies didn't start with Will Skelton and Rob Vallettini. The word coming out of their camp was that they were, if it was a deciding game, then they'd have risked it. Well, they should have risked it game one because that's where you set the tone. They have to play on Saturday because of what we saw tonight. And actually, Salakai Lotto, the ex-Northampton player. He's been awesome. In two games against the Lions, he's abrasive, super physical, dominant in his collisions. He won't feature. Taniela Tupu tonight at the scrum was like Taniela of old.

5:34we had a long and quite emotional conversation with him after the Moratars game, he's not been in a good place he was in a good place tonight again I think it's too late for him to feature which I can understand because of his rocky journey but Salakai Lotto, he's the kind of guy who they need especially if they don't want to risk Skelton or don't fancy him or don't fancy him which might be the other thing just to come in and rock the Lions and force them to be in this battle because the Lions won that physical battle in the first test quite, I mean they were hyped up and psyched for it but they won it without any test and I think what this team has shown tonight, I think you're right Slotty that the passion and intensity would have been a lesson to the Wallabies who were in the stadium tonight but I think also, of course this wasn't the Lions test team, you have to match physicality at test level if you're going to try and do anything else and that has to be the starting point I think for the Wallabies going to the test because if they just allow the Lions to run over them again then the result's going to be the same.

6:32And the spirit of Uru and Gamble as well. Charlie Gamble, he's the other one. I mean, he won't be on the Test team. What a boy. He's been, you know, talk about thawling the side of the Lions. He has been, that Waratahs game and here, just causing chaos, the breakdown. And some of the, often like the Lions, you want players to emerge in great stories. But some of the better stories so far have been the opposition players who've really taken their opportunity that they may not have seen expected or seen coming. and Charlie Gamble is one of them. He's been absolutely brilliant to watch. So he's got a cool story where he used to deliver craft beers around Sydney.

7:09It's like a delivery driver. He's actually from Christchurch in New Zealand and I've spent the day watching him, thinking of him in like a Bristol Bears shirt, just tearing around at Ashton Gate and slightly disappointingly for all of us, he's re-signed for the Waratahs so we're going to have to all come back and watch him in Sydney instead. But he's going to deliver beer to us next week in Sydney. Yeah, brilliant, I hope so. And the great Tash. You got his number? I don't. I should have asked. He was in the mix zone. I should have got it. But then Uru as well was causing chaos at six, wasn't he?

7:36And he delivers pizza. Incredible team. Pieces and beers. Amazing. He delivers big hits. Yeah. I totally agree with all of this where I felt like maybe we didn't say it enough on Saturday night after the first test. The Wallabies were soft, man. They were a bit pathetic. They were a bit wet wipes. Let's be honest. Yeah, but that's what tonight showed us. Our suspicions, as you say, we probably didn't voice enough, was proven by a different type of team who did that tonight. And we'll get into the ins and outs of the second test on Thursday when we do our pod when the team's announced. Is that Charlie Gumber on the phone, Slotty?

8:14No, Slotty. Sorry, Charlie. Charlie. Four pints, please. Well, when we get to analyse the teams, we might see that changing. But if the Wallabies don't come to the MCG fizzing, like the First Nations Pacifica team do, then what has this series been about? Like, the Wallabies are fighting for their futures as a sport, like in Australia here. Like, we spent the whole time going around Australia loving it, but feeling like the Union is sort of fifth on the roster here. And tonight there was a pretty decent crowd for a game against two really thrown together sides, like 30-odd thousand, but it wasn't full.

8:54The MCG is going to be hopefully over 85 ,000, but it's not going to be the 100 ,000 that we've been told about for a year. And you're kind of going, if Australia wants to love its rugby again, then show it on Saturday and show a bit of this, show a bit of biff.

9:07Alfie: Well, I just, yeah, not to labour the point, but I just would have thought on Saturday, the one thing that you can absolutely guarantee is emotionally you are in a state ready to rip into it and take on the Lions. And they looked miles off it. And as you say, we saw tonight what emotion can do for you in rugby, for a team that has barely been together more than a couple of days. from the Lions point of view should we go through I suppose some of the newsier bits or selection bits Darcy Graham that was such a shame wasn't it that was horrible really wasn't it yeah so I was actually sat for where we are now they're clearing away actually this kind of plastic pallets that you see the team sit on and I was down here in a radio seat right by the Lions bench and he was in tears and had a top over his face when he sat down on the bench and actually Finn Russell and Ellis Genge who were sat in these seats that were here the non-playing match day players went over immediately and gave him a hug and consoled him and he was chatting to us yesterday about how proud he is to be a Lion and no one How long was it he lasted?

10:05Like 14, 15 minutes

10:06Alfie: Scored a try and he was saying no one can take it away from me that I'm a Lion and obviously that's absolutely the case but yeah you just feel gutted for him I mean it's got to be one of the shortest appearances as a Lion ever hasn't it and poor guy like you just saw it And one of the shortest Lions as well Yeah literally short yeah So Absolutely clever play on words there he was wearing a boot actually when we saw him emerge and look they put a boot on anything as a precaution but he could be going home tomorrow along with let's call them well some people have cruelly been calling them the geography six a reference to well actually there's three of them aren't there which is a throwback to the geography six of 2017 but Andy Farrell made it quite clear that Darcy Graham was the next cab off the rank call up as was Thomas Clarkson's the next cab off the rank as was Jamie George and then he sort of left it hanging.

10:55So poor old Rory Sutherland who is a lion to be fair to him he played two tests in 2021. Ewan Ashman and Gregor Brown I think are going to be on the next plane back to Heathrow tomorrow which is all a bit weird isn't it really that whole lion for five days thing. I don't like it. But look yeah so horrible for Graham but other than that what did we think? I mean Kinghorn threw two intercepts one that went for a try but he had a real mixed but he did some really nice stuff. attack but also through two interceptions conceding one try the biggest plus for him was he got through 80 minutes having had a knee problem following the act in the act brumbies game he lasted similar time to seven minutes he actually got injured and then he played for another like battled on for a bit yeah so he was sort of similar to darcy graham came off um in terms in terms of um does blair is blair kinghorn gonna be in the test squad which is the sort of the question that we're talking right I guess is throwing two intercepts doesn't help his cause much but it's not like that's what he's going to do on Saturday you know he's out of character it was a period of the game where the team was was playing loose it wasn't just him that's what I mean I think his benefit was he got through he got through a game and I think he's there's every chance he features in the test squad Marcus Smith went off with an HIA but we're told that he passed it so that wouldn't that won't rule him out.

12:17Gary Ringrose that came on for Darcy Graham and I thought played well. Again he was coming back from concussion got a lot longer than he would have expected but him and Farrell looked pretty decent I thought in midfield. I thought Owen Farrell had a good game you could hear him I mean it wasn't the loudest crowd and we were some way back and you could still. Behind glass and still hear him. You could still hear him out on the field barking in the orders and I actually thought him and Finn Smith played really nicely together. Owen was often at first receiver a lot feeling a bit in behind they combined nicely I mean it was shades of uh shades of England next November huh potentially yeah and it was obviously poor George Ford the the uh the defense wasn't very sophisticated it wasn't very difficult to get outflank them because they became they were they were up quickly but they're really tight so those two combined nicely to get around the edge a lot but that was that was the challenge in front of them and I thought I thought Owen did pretty well he was blowing though wasn't he well that's we were just thinking beforehand if first time that Owen Farrell's played 80 minutes for a long time.

13:18So he played 20-odd minutes in Adelaide against the AUNZ side. And then before that, hadn't played since he was playing for Racing in the Challenge Cup semi-final against Lyon and got injured, and that was early May. So that's his first 80 for a long time. So if we're spooling forward a bit to the weekend or Thursday when they're going to announce their next team, how do we think it might change? Do we think Owen's done enough, for example, or not Owen Farrell to get on the bench and therefore Kinghorn as well because you sort of need both don't you if you're going to get rid of Marcus and Ackie to cover 10-12 and then the back three the easier conversation before we get on to that is so we think Joe McCarthy is going to be out so the likelihood is that Ollie Chesson comes into the starting 15 creates a space on the bench almost certainly now I'd say Jack Morgan takes that spot largely because he came because they would have three locks on the field so you then have two flankers on the bench with Earl and Morgan.

14:16And of the three flankers playing today, as you were about to say, Alex, Morgan was the one who was subbed after 50-something minutes, which is just the one that he was going to protect. And the other two played 80, yeah. And we were told that he missed out on the initial squad by a... He was this close. This close, this close. So I think that would be my analysis right now, is that they probably move Ty Byrne into the second row and play Oli Chesson with six, but they could go the other way around. In some ways it sort of only matters in the scrum, doesn't it? Yeah, and that opens up a bench slot for a flanker, I think.

14:49Rather than a James Ryan or a Scott Cummings, I would expect them to go with a flanker. I don't think they need four locks in the 23. So I think that is the only change that will happen in the pack, I think, would be injury enforced. I think the back line is more interesting slash complicated because we suspected that they'd start with the Irish pair for the first test and Ringrose got concussed, so they went with the Scots. And now Ringrose is back. What does that do? Do the Irish pair come back in as Farrell's first choice? Does Turplotu then maybe drop onto the bench? Does Ringrose come back on the bench?

15:28I know that's the debate, but I just feel that from the first test the midfield was one of the many parts that worked really well. and why change a winning team? There is some bits that can be changed, but I don't see the point in doing that. I don't feel that the Irish pair had proven themselves particularly to be why they should be first choice anyway, and I feel the Scots proved that they could do a pretty damn fine job. The one guy who maybe wasn't brilliant in the first test was James Lowe, so could you get King Horn onto the wing? Yeah, you definitely could. Left wing. He's had a strange tour, James Lowe.

16:04he's looked off colour all trip do you know what I mean? That Brumbies game where his finishing was weird he was out of position for a pass from Bundy that went into touch and looked like it was Bundy's fault but actually James Lowe just wasn't up with play. He's had a strange tour and I don't think we've seen the best from him on this trip at all he blew a try in the first test which looked to me like a guy who knows he's off colour and off form and was desperate to try and score. Just went himself didn't he? Yeah he should have passed it. So, Kinghorn, done 18 minutes, left boot, good in the air.

16:36I would have him... Played left wing all season for Toulouse. I'd have him on the left wing. So then what does that mean for your bench? Do you just keep it similar? Is it a straight swap, really, then? Low for Kinghorn? One of the reasons that I think Farrell has to be in the conversation is because of what happened in the last 20 minutes. In the first test, you mean? In the first test. I mean, it happened again tonight, but they were rolling in players who only joined the squad three days ago, which is no excuse. That's their choice. They didn't have to do that, but they chose to do that. But that wouldn't have helped.

17:11But that first test, the Lions fell away in that last 20-25. A light intensity, didn't they? I just wonder whether they need a general coming on in a way that Marcus isn't that general. He's not going to come and just grab it. He's barely come on as a 10, has he? Well, yeah, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if Owen is in the conversation to be on the bench, because I think that's the area that the Lions definitely need to improve. The thing is, if Owen's in for Marcus, then who covers the back three? Gary Ringrose? Well, you've got there, then on the field, you've got Freeman, Keenan and Kinghorn, who could all move if one of them got injured, and then you'd add Ringrose, perhaps.

17:53But would you want another wing? I just can't believe they could put Owen in the team, on the bench, after 80 minutes a night. And there's four days until the Test match. I mean, it would just be nuts, wouldn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And look, he's not goal kicking. And maybe that's because they're just giving it to the tens and backing the tens to kick. He's kicking in practice. It's not like... We had a theory at one point that maybe he couldn't because of his groin operation. But he certainly stopped kicking for racing because of his pubis, his groin. He's kicking in practice. Yeah, it would be a stretch, Stotty, but...

18:23Alfie: You've always felt like it's an option, haven't you? Ever since he joined the tour. Of course, he's never been here to hold a tackle bag, has he? Definitely. And I don't think Marcus has come on and influenced games in the way that you would want someone to do in a test match. And I just like that balance of what Farrell could bring as a leader off the bench and a general off the bench for a team that lacked that in the last 25 minutes in Brisbane. Do you think that these are good headaches that Andy Farrell will be enjoying at this point in the tour or do you think to have this many question marks or maybe him or what about here is actually he would like a little bit more clarity no i think we are debating all these changes his starting point is the team that played in brisbane first test yeah and what what what can change to improve things from there and and address maybe a tactical shift they might see coming maybe address what what they think the wall the wallabies might bring this time maybe things they saw within the game and address some of the failings from the Lions in that test which were really only in that in that last period so he would he's he won't take a risk he's less likely to pick Owen Farrell than I than I am I think but I think I do feel that he will be part of the conversation because he adds something broader than just the recent form and the fact he hasn't played for we're back to the conversation we had when he was first called up well why you know what's the benefit of him being here?

19:49It's all the other things that he brings. Is that enough to get in the test? Team, I agree with you, Slotty. I think it would be unlikely. But I can, I would, if I was in that selection meeting, I would want to discuss Aaron Farrow being in the 23.

20:00Alfie: What was also quite fun was in the post-match presser today when it's Andy and Owen there, and Andy got asked, what's this been like? It was you, Slotty, wasn't it? You asked the question, what's it been like, this kind of dynamic? The most uncomfortable, I think, it looked all the time. Well, it is what it is. Yeah. Andy Farrell went back to his famous answer it is what it is and Owen didn't know what to say I thought it was quite interesting watching them together you can see who out of two alpha males you can see who was the most alpha but you guys they sort of split their media operation the other day and you guys were here with Owen Farrell who spoke brilliantly didn't he about his life and times and everything else and he was light and entertaining and when he had the opportunity.

20:47Yeah, he made us laugh a few times, which he'd never done before. It was a bit strange and rather lovely, I thought. Actually, I guess that's lovely is the wrong word. But I felt sort of pleased for him that he was kind of embracing being a normal human being and smiling. Can I just float another name who could come onto the bench who I don't think will, but could? It's Ben White. Yeah. Two starts, two outstanding performances. I think it would be really harsh for Alex Mitchell to not be on the test bench having been on the bench or the starting 15 every game on this trip

21:21Alfie: Farrell name checked him as well both with Sky and then in the press conference Ben White he's been excellent in those two games he could have done no more and he's Scottish I mean that's just brilliant isn't it it's a whole Scottish backline by the end of this podcast and he deserves to be again I would want to be tabling his name in the conversation can Darcy play in the boot no Duan's not playing so we're not having a full Scottish back I don't think Alex Mitchell has done anything to deserve being dropped out of the test squad I'm sort of gutted that he missed they didn't bring him on definitely the banter call was to play him in every game wasn't it now and then they just didn't do it I'd definitely prefer to bring him on than one of the temporary Scots who flew in and will fly out again oh god i mean this second test i hope is brilliant and we sort of said that last week before last saturday and it was brilliant and intense and and felt like a test match for about 45 minutes didn't it and then it kind of collapsed into a bit of a oh everyone knows what's going to happen here and look we as you said to alex earlier earlier on this pod we've had a little behind the scenes look at the mcg which was awesome today and what an arena that is and if that's packed and it's probably going to be what 50 ,000 odd red 30 ,000 gold if if if they're wearing gold and you're just thinking with a bit of rain like it looks like a horrible day on Saturday does that change who you pick like do you want a bit of Owen Farrell do you want less of the Ben White who's snipey do you want a bit more Mitchell box kicking a bit like um the semi-final in the last World Cup I don't know like maybe that comes into it this looks like there might even be a thunderstorm on Saturday.

23:05So things change, don't they? It's going to be cool. It's going to be fascinating. Can I just ask, when I checked into my hotel room, I had a cake. Did you? Yeah. But it was a rugby pitch cake. The cake decorated rugby pitch. Made of what? Did you not get one? Don't do that. I didn't. Will's eaten it. I've allergic to nuts, so maybe they did. Did you say that? They protected me. I didn't say that. Did you get one? I did get one, yeah. Did you? Have you eaten it? no I've tried it what's it made of? I don't know it was hard to avoid it wasn't it I eventually put mine out I had a few little goes I've got to put it outside the room what floor are you on?

23:49I think it was the executive floor dip in your bin I had some the other night because I went to see a gig with some of the other journos and then we watched the golf and before you knew it it was like half one in the morning I hadn't had any dinner I got back to the room cake for dinner you had rugby cake for your dinner sophisticated life on tour in Perth yeah and we haven't got oh you didn't get one sorry I didn't know you hadn't had one I wouldn't have brought that up I mean that's like awful that the public knows you've been excluded like that

24:21Alfie: Alfie have you got a cake in your Alfie's trying to wrap this up come on come on that was a really weird but suitable way to finish the podcast I think lads I enjoyed that good work So next pod will be with you Thursday, Team News Day, where we'll also preview the second test in more detail. Aussies have to turn up to that, have to turn up to it. So yeah, drop us an email in the meantime. The email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Pod on Thursday to preview the second test and go through the Team News. Pod on Saturday from the MCG. Are the Lions going to have wrapped up the series or will it be 1-1?

24:54Alfie: So loads coming up for the rest of the week here in Melbourne. Appreciate you listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist rugby podcast from The Times and the Sunday Times.

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