Historic weekend leaves three nations in the running

0:15Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. We are back in studio on a Monday and what a weekend of action we have to look back on. I'm Alfie Reynolds and alongside me is Charlie Morgan. All right, Charlie.

0:28Charlie: Hi, mate.

0:29Alfie: how was your trip back from Rome? I feel like I saw you just a matter of hours ago in Rome Airport

0:34Charlie: it was 14 hours ago that we parted ways after I stuffed my face with pizza in Rome Airport it was fine mate thank you very much for asking not too jaded this morning good to go for one last week good man

0:48Alfie: and also with us fresh from a trip to Murrayfield where he saw an absolute classic Elgin Alderman Elgin, morning

0:53Elgan: morning it was I spoke with all the Six Nations about my favourite Six Nations Saturday, another cloud in the sky. And that was this weekend. Edinburgh, my favourite city in the world, 15 ,000 Frenchmen in town, brilliant bonkers game of rugby. It was just what weekends are supposed to be.

1:09Alfie: Absolutely. So the last pod we had was from Rome, Stadio Olimpico, Saturday night, myself and Will looking back on England's first ever defeat to Italy. As expected, we have had loads of reaction, loads of emails from our listeners. We will come on to a few of those and chat about the England performance and where they are later on in the pod. We got so many emails that we're actually also going to have to use some on Thursday because we won't be able to get through all of them. So for those of you that have emailed in, thank you very much. We will try and get to as many of them across this week as we possibly can.

1:41Alfie: As I say, we'll get on to England. I want to start off at Murrayfield with an incredible result, incredible performance from Scotland. But maybe before that, I've seen people say it. I feel like this is something that crops up pretty much every Six Nations. Have we just seen one of the great weekends? Have we seen the greatest weekend of Six Nations rugby ever? What do we reckon?

2:00Elgan: I've been through them all. I think it's probably in the top 10. I'm not going to go into all of them just yet because we'll talk about something about the game itself first, maybe later on. If you'll permit me, you two can go make a coffee and I'll read them all out to myself. But I certainly think with just the history of that Italy win, I'm pretty sure first time in Six Nations history that both teams have scored 40 or more points in a game, which says it all. just how bonkers that result was but also just Wales we were talking at the start of this tournament about if Wales might end up as the worst Six Nations team in history based off those 41 and 42 point defeats in the first two rounds but the way that they went to Ireland again on Friday night after the way that they had battled against Scotland they've they still haven't won but they've turned the narrative around significantly so it really was yeah a great weekend of Six

2:48Charlie: Nations I always think it's really that's a really good point because I always think and you guys mentioned it on the pod in Rome when the floor comes up that's what makes a great Six Nations weekend right when there's when there's an under there's a really good underdog performance and you can say you can we can say what we like about whether Italy are underdogs or not but the fact that it was their first win over England made that historic and they thoroughly deserved it but also to Elgin's point that performance from Wales a real defiant performance felt important too.

3:19Alfie: As I say, I feel like that is a question that gets asked every single Six Nations of was this the best weekend ever? But I think it probably underlines how consistently good the Championship is. Every single year you get great games, you get the unexpected and that's absolutely been the case this year. Anyone who has tried to make any predictions for how the results would go in this Six Nations has been made to look pretty foolish including, I think Elgin, Scotland 50, France 40. Even people that predicted Scotland to win were not predicting that sort of scoreline. What was it like being inside Murrayfield with all of that was happening and how significant a result this is for Scotland?

3:56Elgan: Well, the strange thing about the game was France scored four absolutely cracking tries at the end of the game and they were just sort of immediately forgotten because people were just giddy because of what had been going on. We were looking at what would have been, if it finished 15 minutes ago, Scotland's record ever win against France. The previous one was back in 1912. so it was going to be we were just shouting around I think it's in Belief 1912 to each other basically during that game if you'd said after the first round of the six nations that that would happen when I mean Scotland were getting pilloried for losing to Italy a result which now doesn't look dreadful because 1815 in Rome with the way that France were favorites for the Grand Sam and the thing is France are still in the box seat to win the championship they still are the best team in the championship in my opinion but it just the manner in which it started to unravel it's it's like when you predict the six nations at the start it can start off okay but you just need one result to go wrong in the middle in that third round and suddenly it alters the complexion of it all you had france deprived of their traditional fast start that they've done in the first three rounds but then they came into it towards the middle part of that first half then even early on in the second half you know they were still in it and then suddenly i think that that dupont interception to Carl Steyn just changed it and it was just a 10-15 minute tidal wave of Scottish tries as France somewhat lost the plot a bit but then they came back at the end brilliantly to to alter the scoreline but yeah I mean to think if you'd said beforehand I think France will score 40 points and lose the game that would have been quite a prediction to make I've seen plenty of

5:30Alfie: people say that this is might be Scotland's greatest ever performance in the history of the Six Nations which is quite revealing in itself Charlie what stands out to you we were having a chat in Rome airport yesterday as we were waiting for our separate flights and you said that they're just really smart they do a lot of stuff kind of really well and they're very smart team yeah so

5:49Charlie: from the very start the way they sort of set up for what looked like a box kick went across the face of their own post and Finn Russell went high across to Louis Bielbire with a low sun with Francis back three looking into that low sun that set the tone for a really sort of varied performance where they complemented a varied kicking game with an ambition to move the ball from deep. And I think that just, they did the same against England. Potentially an underrated aspect of how Scotland, of Scotland's really good performances, a lot of them coming against England in recent years, has been the variety and intelligence of their kicking game.

6:22Charlie: I think also of how they held back Xander Fagerson because they knew that their scrum in the second half had to be really strong. They were smart with strike moves. There was just a lot of smart content in this performance from Scotland. And I thought they got maybe slightly fortunate in some aspects of the kicking game with those ricochets, because we know that that is your, it's a random, it's a randomizer, that sort of tactic. They got a couple of soft breakdown penalties, but a lot of it was just fantastic. And they, to be 47-14 up against a French side that has a lot of special talents in it, I thought that France could have potentially been vulnerable at some point in this championship because there are some relatively new combinations, but I didn't expect that.

7:12Elgan: What struck me really early on was as soon as Toma Ramos dropped that kick in the fourth minute of the game, and that was the first stoppage in the match. They'd been going on for more than three minutes into that stage. As soon as that happened, I thought, this feels a bit like Twickenham 2025 again, where, again, that was the one game they lost last year when they won all four other games. When you saw Penneau, Dupont dropping balls that they normally wouldn't, to see Ramos drop that kick and then a few minutes later, Louis BLBRA dropping what would have been not a try-scoring opportunity, but certainly an attacking opportunity.

7:44Elgan: That really reminded me of Tokenham. It did really make me think immediately. And as I mentioned, France's fast starts in the first three rounds. They'd scored two tries inside five minutes and they almost did the same against Ireland, but Charles Olivon knocked on that. that grubber through from BLBRA early on. Ramos drops that kick. It's a scrum to Scotland. They get a free kick. They go into the 22. They score almost immediately. So the entire complexion of the opening five minutes of the game has altered. That was the first time France were behind in the entire championship. So just that one mistake, that very Twickenham-like mistake, perhaps set the course for the rest of the match from there on in.

8:16Alfie: I want to get more on France in just a moment because I am intrigued of what this means and what this means for the feeling about this team and Fabien Gaultier and no slam and all of that stuff. but just to stay on Scotland for just a second. And we've got to give them their credit, don't we? I mean, after the opening weekend, they were getting absolutely hammered, particularly off the back of the November they had, then coming into here, losing to Italy and Rome, which, as you say, doesn't look like the worst result now in what were really tricky conditions. Lots of questions about Gregor Townsend and whether he was the right man.

8:44Alfie: And they've answered so many of them, haven't they, in the last three rounds? And now they go into Super Saturday Charlie in the title hunt. I think we probably all expect France to still be the eventual winners, but that has been the thing that Scotland, you've always been able to level at this Scotland team, haven't you? For all the great wins, for all of the good performances, a lot of them coming against England, they were never really in with a title shot where they are this weekend.

9:06Charlie: Those two home performances against England and then France feel not quite championship defining because this island cloud hangs over them and it's that they've been so flaky in that fixture under Gregor Townsend. But the performance against France to back up the performance against England is the important thing for them. And I go back to Sione Tupolotu's press conference at the captain's run before England, where he was still smarting from that Italy loss. And if you now look back at that Italy loss, I think the importance of those two early Italy tries and just the calamitous nature of Scotland's line-out and their scrum, they've fixed those two things through clearly smart coaching, smart selection over the rest of this tournament.

9:52Charlie: and they've also stayed true to their identity as a backline that, as I say, moves the ball with ambition and invention. And they just work really, really hard for each other. Ben White's performance, just to sort of single him out, which is difficult because there's so many big performances in that side, but he was phenomenal, I thought, opposite Antoine Dupont. For that Atisogbe pass to BLBRE, he'd chased Mathieu Gellibert across the field from the initial first phase rap move that France ran. He hit Jalibere slightly late, got on his feet for the next phase and was chasing back to just make that last pass a little bit more difficult.

10:33Charlie: And those are tiny things that never show up on stat sheets, but it just really epitomised the sort of Ben White is such a fierce competitor and he's really, really kind of accurate with his nuts and bolts as well. He's an excellent player.

10:46Elgan: And what they've got left now is probably what would be the biggest achievement of the lot because, like we say, they haven't beat an Ireland since 2017. They haven't won in Dublin since 2010, and that was at Croke Park. So I don't think they've won at Lansdowne Road, or the old Lansdowne Road, since 1998. So a lot of history awaits. Even if they don't win the championship, if they were to win that game, that would be a real statement. To have won four games, to have ended that duck, to have done what they did to France. I mean, it will be some breakthrough tournament for Scotland.

11:13Alfie: Yeah, the way in which they bounce back, I think, has been really impressive. In terms of France, Elgin, how damaging is Saturday to Fabien Gaultier?

11:21Elgan: To Fabien Gaultier, perhaps. I think a lot of the talk after the England defeat has been about how Steve Borthwick doesn't have the hearts and minds of the England public. I'm not sure if Fabien Gaultier has the hearts and minds, but the France team definitely has the hearts and minds because they flooded into Cardiff for that game. They flooded into Edinburgh again. There were probably more than 15 ,000. 15 ,000 was the figure given by a tour group. Certainly, I saw thousands of French people at Edinburgh Airport leaving on Sunday night. Even though France had just lost pretty stunningly, and like we say, it was 50-40, but they were really hammered in the game.

11:58Elgan: They did a lap of honour afterwards, and the crowd stayed out to support them. So the team, certainly, is still beloved by this public. And like we say, they are still the favourites to win this championship, because they should be England this weekend. They are still in the box seat to do that. But if anything, the question marks around Fabien Galtier that were there before the Six Nations, which were around, is he getting the best out of this France team? Have they won as many clean sweeps as they should have done? It will now be, well, next year it will now be five years since their most recent one.

12:26Elgan: Is he getting the best out of his team? I think based off the fact that they lost this weekend, the answer would have to be no. They're not quite at the level that a lot of people think they should be at.

12:34Charlie: Grand slams are hard. That feels harsh. And how does it manifest itself, that sort of slight discontent around Galtier? is there is there sort of open criticism of his manner i mean that the changing room thing was a

12:48Elgan: bit weird wasn't it and didn't work out great yeah well we were in the media room which there were talks about how france maybe wanted to portion off parts of the media room for their changing room the the media room in murrayfield is very close to the the changing rooms in the corridors and so we were just stood right amongst them basically we we uh a few of us hung around with all the France fans that welcomed the France bus in it was a real French takeover at the stadium at that stage I know that stage you thought there's no way Scotland are winning this because this feels like we're in the middle of Paris right here but then they were they took sort of a dividing board out of the media room somewhere I don't know what they were doing that we saw some of the players doing their stretches and their warm-ups in the corridors so I don't know if they were laying it on thick after the comments but clearly it irked them for whatever reason which i think outside france probably didn't um people perhaps weren't enamored of them for that reason because they thought you've won three out of three why are you moaning about the size of a corridor and i was going to say so people that missed it it was they weren't happy

13:46Alfie: with the size of the away changing room at murrayfield from a long way out from a long way

13:50Charlie: from maybe the tuesday it was quite a sort of felt like a punchy thing to make the week about

13:56Elgan: they thought if you made the point of bringing up the size of the corridors and the changes i I think Greg Atanzen said, well, you brought too many backroom staff. Anyway, it was one of the stranger debates you've had. But, you know, Fabien Galté is not universally popular in France. We've seen players that aren't necessarily in the France squad, but just French rugby players say some pretty damning things about him. So he is viewed as quite a peculiar character in France. You know, France are defending champions. They might win a second Six Nations in a row. and yet still there are doubts about whether he's getting the best out of them.

14:31Alfie: And is that good enough for this team, which seems ridiculous in many ways, back-to-back championships? I mean, blimey, England fans would bite your hand off at the moment for a championship even if it wasn't a Grand Slam. But for this French team, and by the way, I love how difficult Grand Slams are to win. I think for people outside of rugby who think you've just got to win five games in a row, I think surely someone does that virtually every year. They are so difficult to win, which I think is brilliant.

14:53Charlie: Is a product also of the floor coming up, as we're saying?

14:56Alfie: Do you think that's what it... Well, they've lost.

14:59Charlie: The reason Scotland aren't in the hunt for one is because they've lost to Italy. It's a bit of a first world problem for me, the lack of a Grand Slam because of that, because they're so difficult.

15:09Alfie: I think it's kind of significant, though. I think a Grand Slam is so much more impressive. Oh, no, for France, I mean. For France.

15:15Charlie: And I actually think, even if they retain the championship, I think that Scotland game is a really good example of a loss that can be beneficial in the future for them. Because maybe they looked like their kicking game was really in tune with what other sides were throwing at them when other sides were being a little bit more predictable. I'm thinking of Ireland and thinking of Wales a little bit, and then Italy too. But when Scotland mixed it up away from home, you're right. That Ramos drop was a real sort of, oh, wow, okay, that's a little bit of a crack. And I do think that they can kick on.

15:56Charlie: And I think actually, to give Galtier his due, I think he's mindful of renewing clearly because the whole chat about around this tournament, this whole tournament has been framed by the fact that he's left out experienced veterans to have a look at more of these exciting new guys coming through.

16:14Alfie: So not too much to worry about for France then, we think, for now. They're in a pretty good spot. But if they lose to England, who knows?

16:19Elgan: No, yeah, true. As we've seen, it's always a fool's errand to predict anything, but especially what has been so great about this Six Nations is that results have happened that people haven't expected coming. So have crazier things happened? Yes, they have. Crazier things have happened than England winning next weekend, but who knows?

16:37Charlie: I think that fan investment thing is a really good point. I've certainly got that feeling when you've seen their travelling support, how they are just so enamoured with the side and that is that's quite a good gauge of the direction

16:52Alfie: they're going in do you think also sometimes though that the fans on six nations away day weekends aren't necessarily the barometer for a team like england fans in rome for example had a great weekend in rome but if you go online and see the thoughts of everyone sitting at home i'd say

17:08Charlie: they're in quite stark contrast but do you think that the fact that there were so many there and so buoyant is probably a reflection of well how long ago were they booking tickets when they were in the middle of that winning run and everything was looking a little bit rosier and the other

17:20Elgan: point is that they're the tv viewing figures in france as well have been you know average seven eight million people watching every game including that thursday night game so rugby players aren't going out there to try and necessarily just build massive tv audiences but back in france they are watching it in in huge numbers as well as the thousands that have

17:38Alfie: flood of intercardiff and edinburgh so france super saturday the final game they host england and scotland are making the trip to dublin more on that a little bit later because that is so intriguing speaking of ireland though the friday night game ireland beating wales although another spirited good welsh performance and there is only one place to start here rampaging reese caray the

18:00Elgan: moment of the championship arguably elgin so far currently as we are recording reese caray's Wikipedia page lists his name as Rhys B.L. Carré. Lowercase B, strangely. You've gone in and edited. I was not the one. I've never edited a Wikipedia page, I assure you. But that one, I wasn't expecting to read that when I opened up his Wikipedia page this morning. I think every Welsh prop at some stage in their career, the hand of history, taps them on the shoulder and says, you need to score a solo try today. Because immediately, people were thinking of getting Jenkins against Namibia, 2011 World Cup.

18:32Elgan: People perhaps don't quite class Adam Jones against England I think it was 2010 he scored from about two yards but I remember the day after he went on scrum five and talked about it as if it was an 80 meter solo score where he sidestepped four people and those with even longer memories will think back to the Graham Price in Paris in 1975 the famous they'll never believe it in Pontypool so Rhys Carey now there amongst the pantheon of prop try scorers um it happened in the same part of the field as well it reminded to me a lot of i don't know if anyone remembers richie gray's 40 meter try for scotland it happened in the same area of the field very similar try obviously he was a second row for scotland back then but in in the search for the definitive view of this i went to a friend of the pod will collier score of one of the great prop tries for harlequins against bristol five years ago and this was his view it was sensational up there with the very best of prop tries in the top three probably over the ground he looked quicker than me but the dummy wasn't anywhere near as good he didn't sell as many people the cameraman didn't go as much as when I did neither did the stadium then on a more serious note he said it could potentially be life-changing for Rhys Carey not only because now people will just remember that score forever but also it was only a few years ago that he was dropped from the Wales team viewed as being overweight and unfit and he has in the four games of this Six Nations he has shown that he is a serious carrier decent scrummager as well

19:54Alfie: and yeah a tremendous player that was Gatland wasn't it that dropped him for his conditioning

20:00Charlie: quite cruelly with a with a sort of a quite pointed sort of press release can i add richard bann's 2003 springbox against the all blacks that it looks kind of semi-similar rather than sort of an overs line bann's comes again it comes back against the grain but it's like a similar sort of range and just oh my goodness is he is he is he yes he has sort of vibe to it when he's storming through the sort of cover defense but yeah just just so heartwarming aren't they stuff like that.

20:30Alfie: I think the thing that made it so brilliant was just the fact that he was kind of laughing and smiling to himself before he even scored the try when you saw the slow motion replay. Rob Balakun's going to hate that on review though. He's going to be sat there like, oh man, why did this have to happen to me? We were watching it, Charlie, on Friday night in Rome in a restaurant which was packed out. Lots of rugby fans in there ahead of the weekend and the explosion of noise when that happened was absolutely brilliant.

20:52Charlie: He's a good footballer. I mean, those tries don't happen if you're not a really balanced runner as well so he's there's so much very very gifted player he was quite known when he was

21:05Elgan: coming through as an under 20s player for having the capacity to do that that was I think what was the the very annoying thing for Wales fans when he kept on being dropped for for weight issues whatever they thought Wales famously as everyone always says a country that is a bit short on heft and ball carriers and here we have a prop who can trundle down midfield in a way that other The props simply can't. So I think that was what was most annoying for a lot of supporters of the team. So for that to have happened, it was just the cherry on the cake for Rhys Carey's comeback.

21:33Alfie: In terms of Wales then, I mean, again, to go back to what I said earlier and predictions in this Six Nations making look ridiculously foolish. I said on pods last week that I thought Wales had probably thrown their punches against Scotland and wouldn't be able to back it up. And they absolutely did. do we think despite the result that we have seen Wales now that have turned a corner or is it too early to say that because they haven't won and we just haven't gotten a big enough body of evidence how do you view these kind of last couple of very spirited albeit defeats and their performances

22:06Elgan: I think if if a Warren Gatlin team of his first stint 08-19 had put in a performance like that in Dublin it would have been regarded as a great performance even by those because often even the best welsh teams have gone to dublin and not done well it's been quite some time since they won there so for this under fire team to go there and to put in that performance you know we're talking a lot in recent days with with steve borting and fabian galti about whether people are playing for teams whether people believe or not and it does look like that this completely under fire wales team are now finding a sense of what they can do and players like you know ben carter completely unheralded individual down at dragons has come in and has just put in huge performances alongside David Jenkins in the second row.

22:48Elgan: Alex Mann yet again, 32 tackles. Everyone's talking about how he's too lightweight, what he was achieving. Coming of age really for Eddie James, another good performance outside centre. Dan Edwards had a difficult day after how well Sam Costello went against Scotland. But we are seeing a Wales team that for three years has just looked so flimsy and unable to stay in games. We're now seeing a team coming together that can stay in games, that can challenge good teams. Now, before the tournament, I thought Scotland was their best chance of winning and they did come so close to winning that. Italy now in Cardiff, it's a huge opportunity to win.

23:26Elgan: You're hoping that thousands have bought tickets now because the narrative was all about how low ticket sales were. You'll hope that the Welsh public have seen the last two games and thought, yeah, let's flood into that stadium. Let's get that win, the first one in three years. And let's bring a W back to the Principality Stadium. And they've shown enough that that can happen next weekend.

23:46Charlie: I agree. I was just about to say that, yeah. I certainly think they're capable of doing that. I think you'd have them fifth out of optimism. I think you'd have them above England at this point, which didn't look likely after the first weekend at Twickenham.

24:00Elgan: Imagine if it was England-Wales this weekend, how different the build-up would be.

24:04Charlie: I said exactly that, and the tournament doesn't work like that. It would maybe work if you had a plate and like a Nations Championship sort of set up, but we don't. But that would be really, really, really interesting because the optimism has grown and grown and grown and that's a great way of putting it, that actually the great Wales sides to have conjured that sort of, yeah, that collective heart and desire, so palpable desire to work for each other. And they move the ball nicely too at times. I think that'll be an area that'll grow, but to have that foundation, really handy.

24:39Alfie: yeah to pick up on the Wales comparisons with England point there was I think it was in the second half Charlie that me and you turned to each other and Wales had a line out where they threw it to the back and then there was a little they went into midfield didn't they and then they

24:51Charlie: moved back down and then the last pass actually wobbled into touch but it just looked more it just looked incisive and it looked creative and it looks like England just haven't been getting any joy out of their strike plays have they then they scored and they went and we'll get into them but we'll get into them later but the try that was eventually finished by Freeman looked like a coherent sort of passage of play but they haven't been anywhere near as incisive as that.

25:18Alfie: And that was what we both turned to each other and said we haven't seen England attacking anywhere near that sort of creativity or ask questions of a defence so maybe let's get on to England really quick break and then we'll get into some of your emails about England and where they are following defeat to Italy in Rome.

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26:31Charlie: Listen to the investigation that started it all. Search for Last Man Standing in your preferred podcast app.

26:40Alfie: OK, so as I've flagged already, myself and Will tried to make sense of things from the stands on Saturday night in Rome. Charlie, what stands out to you? You were there. There are holes you could pick all over this England team at the moment. Where's your focus at the moment in terms of questions for this England side?

26:59Charlie: Well, to take it sort of to reverse that, I guess, what are they showing progress in? Scrum, still decent. They were on top against an Italian team that has been good against everybody else. Their defensive breakdown was better until it wasn't. Until that sort of made the point in a piece after the game that Maratoji's yellow card actually came from him having previously, at sort of moments previously, conceded a penalty for just going off his, losing his balance before addressing the ball. But generally, they were more disruptive around the breakdown, in which was a total breakdown dogfight overseen by referee Luke Ramos.

27:35Charlie: From there, it just seemed like there was a neurosis about how they played that crept in, made them anxious. and this was probably to be expected with the amount of backline changes they made. It felt like the kick-first mentality was weighing really heavy on a lot of them because a lot of it seemed like you could see the cogs whirring, Finn Smith getting charged down, Atkinson putting the boot to ball late in the second half, which actually nearly came off the net off a ricochet to Bevan Rod. the way that the second half descended into a kind of box kicking stalemate which in fairness is how they beat argentina in the second test in argentina the way that there just didn't seem to be any urgency or incision when they did win contestables back because that contestable battle is meant to be and what we saw to compare it to scotland there just seems to be more off the back of the kicking game and actually more options with which to complement the kicking game that scotland and ireland have had in games against england and actually italy too you know it's italy italy's second try comes from a cross cross a kick pass that then turns into a stream of offloads which becomes a fantastic try england england scored to to stress england scored a couple of nice tries the the freeman one was well worked and and the robert one from a turnover ambition off the turnover in transition felt important that really did on halftime it really did and that but then to i then i think the just the kind of collective anxiety which is never a good sign with a side caught up with them in that last quarter and that's what it felt to me it felt like a side that is fraying a bit and will use will and i have used the word broken i don't think that's i don't think that's overstating it the island scotland games what typified them was

29:36Elgan: those slow starts and they sort of left themselves too much to do didn't they i think what's most galling about this game is the fact that they were 18 10 up with a man advantage after 52 53 minutes

29:46Charlie: after a real brain fade of a yellow card for nicotero as well and that that was the moment that you think okay this hasn't it felt yet again to stress fantastic occasion fantastic win for italy italy can be loads better and england just seemed so um constricted themselves so it was a really tense kind of it was really tense game actually well on that point angus emailed us

30:12Alfie: the ruck at the times.co.uk and he said england were eight points up italy down to 14 and even with the most risk-averse game plan in world rugby they lose italy win the game by going for a cross field kick in their own half you've just mentioned that charlie england repeatedly box kick it from that position and then are clueless even if they win the ball back it sums it up perfectly england players in the week said they looked at the data from the last two games and it showed that the game plan was actually working what more evidence does anybody need that it's not borthwick has to go his whole model of the game is clearly based on a misinterpretation of data and statistics

30:49Charlie: well let's okay so the data that they'll be looking at is i think a big part of that will be the areas that they're getting into in the pit on the pitch so they're getting into the 22 enough times to score the points to win the game and I think what's hurting them the line out still is just this it's just so scruffy so they have a five meter line out really early on that they go over the 15 meter line and Michele Lamarro comes through and disrupts that that's an opportunity gone whether it's the balance of the back line or the or the cohesion that they don't have after making the changes then they've been disrupted by injuries that's not giving them punch in the the opposition 22 i have to say also that i feel that and this is this is really um recurring theme from 2018 they really got caught at the breakdown against sides that are aggressive there and when they're not refereed by premiership referees who they they're playing in the premiership you you know that you're going to get the benefit of the doubt if you're going forward premiership referees going to make sure that jackalers arrive legally and that defending players roll away and i think you're seeing um england sides almost shocked when when test sides compete really hard against them the very last um turnover for lamaro was if you look at no and nobody wants to hear this and actually you know it's there's no point complaining about it it's just it's just a point that lamaro is rewarded there for being super aggressive because technically it's probably in at the side probably past the ball maratoji was was sort of looking at referee ramos going he's obviously feet there really you know but it's it's the breakdown is an area that shows up a lack of urgency and attack and that's a lack of urgency and accuracy and attack and that's what England are suffering from and some of that seems to be mindset because yeah as I say this this kick reliance just just seems to be clouding some of their decision making I think and cloud it and actually and actually curbing their instincts too.

32:45Alfie: It feels to me like the game plan has regressed to the early Borthwick days when we would see England consistently get in what you thought were quite promising positions and they'd kick it into the corner is all about kick pressure and then they moved away from that a bit I thought that there were periods of a Borthwick England team where some of their attacking play was was quite good and it seemed like they wanted to be more of an attacking side he spoke about that but we haven't seen any of that certainly in the last three games Jemima emailed us asking has Borthwick now lost the dressing room well based upon what the

33:16Charlie: players have told us not at all no we will never be able to say that for sure we can hear sort of you know you can ask around and hear sort of an idea of how things are going behind the scenes but it was universal that players came out and defended him and by extension they said look that the blame falls on us and yeah and as Will said I agree with what Will said post-match is the truth is probably somewhere in the middle right there i think they're being worked out tactically by size that have more variation to their game as a collective certainly in um scotland ireland and actually in italy as well in how as i say italy had more incision off the back of their kicking game um and they have the x factor of manager the game changes on to game breaking moments from menoncello who's a who's a phenomenal athlete and crucially is getting in the right areas to show that athleticism um but yeah it's it's it's hard to say but it doesn't look very

34:18Alfie: good it doesn't know based upon what we've seen in the last three matches it certainly doesn't on the subject of centers rob sent us an email where he said england hardly produce any world class centers we bemoan borthwick's attack people criticize the rugby eddie jones's england played people used to moan endlessly about lancaster picking barrett in the centers and let's not get started on Martin Johnson picking Shontane Harpe. We wonder why so many accuse Farrell and Ford of being boring tens. Why Marcus Smith has been so ineffective for England. Why Johnny May was unfairly characterized as a kick chase merchant.

34:53Alfie: And why Henry Arundel is having a disappointing England career. The problem is and has been for a long time the centers. His email was a lot longer than that but I tried to pick out the points. Who sent that? That was from Rob.

35:04Charlie: Would I'd be really interested to know where would Rob categorize Jonathan Joseph?

35:09Alfie: so he did say which apologies Rob I cut this part out I think he said Jonathan Joseph Manu Tualangi as top quality England centres possibly Henry Slade although do we have he's got lots of

35:21Charlie: caps but Henry Slade 70 odd caps um Ollie Lawrence has had I would say Ollie Lawrence has had world class performances potentially hasn't been given sort of a side to settle into and a role to settle into and it's quite hard to know what Ollie Lawrence's role can be because is he is he sort of a 12 or a 13 they posted him as a 13 in attack and a 12 in defense it's difficult there's there are loads of kind of avenues to explore with this and i wouldn't wouldn't sort of want to claim that i know the answer off the top of my head but ben earl flitted between the back row and center at school settled that back row for his professional career and now dabbles back in 12 alfie barbary was the same sort of dabble between three positions settled in the forwards could they have been world-class centres if they'd kept sort of playing there there have been i what i would say to this and what i always say to this is that yeah as i said about early lawrence is that i would say england's centre partnerships have produced world-class performances in farrell and tuilagi were 12 and 13 weren't they for that win against the all blacks in um 2019 for instance manu tuilagi henry slade have come up trumps with huge performances but i think the issue is wanting fans wanting that to be reproduced consistently and that hasn't been the case and maybe that's you know with injuries maybe that's with Iain Farrell spending most of his test career as a 12 it's a really interesting one Slade and Lawrence became didn't they had the most I think they've now set a new record for the most consecutive starts since Gus Scott and Carling so it's a real tricky area And it's actually been, I would say as well, it's been accentuated over this last six months or so because Atkinson, they wanted to play him.

37:10Charlie: He's not been fit. Dingwall's come in, been in and out with injury and now has sort of come out of favour. Lawrence, the same, has been fit for a couple of games here, then injured and sort of moving away. And it was really good. They now want to see if Freeman, they can explore Freeman's ceiling as a 13, which I think is actually a decent pursuit. I think it's a good idea, but they're doing that on a foundation of sand because they can't get the continuity. And it's really, really tough.

37:37Elgan: I was going to mention just before Charlie said that England, of course, do have a grand slam winning British and Irish Lions inside centre. His name's Owen Farrell, but people don't like to, it's not fashionable to sort of praise what Owen Farrell did a few years ago. It was interesting. So this morning, you may have seen that the Wallabies have signed another NRL player, Zach Lomax. and I was looking and he's listed as 6 '3", 16 '7", centre-slash-wing. I think all of the four NRL players they brought over are centre-slash-wing, so they're now going to be stacked with options for possible centres and wings coming into the 2027 World Cup.

38:11Elgan: But just thinking about the dimensions of those players, are players that end up that sort of size in England? I was wondering, are they thrown forward into blindside flanker maybe or into the forwards when they're developing? and maybe that's why England don't have enough of those shapeable carriers. Are they all just playing rugby league up in Yorkshire and Lancashire? Because clearly in Australia there's a huge number of players of that sort of size and that's perhaps why you mentioned Shontane Harpy but also Sam Burgess, Andy Farrell himself. There's a long history of England trying to bring over these sort of dimension players to fix that 12 jersey and never quite perhaps found the winning solution yet.

38:50Charlie: Someone tweeted me and it's really annoying when you can't credit somebody but um related to that somebody replied to a post i did on men and cello and how his x-factor at this athleticism sort of showed up a little bit what england don't have or aren't using and he said well the answer for england is herbie farmworth and eddie jones believes that and herbie farmworth's dimensions he's i mean it's probably sort of similar to similar sort of stature to Freeman but certainly people think that he's the answer and I Should Freeman be 12 not 13?

39:24Elgan: Are they picking him in the wrong centre position?

39:27Charlie: Well the other thing is we sort of But we know that there are moves being made behind the scenes to make sure that Bernard Jancy van Rensburg qualifies for England which is clearly a concession that England could sort of do with bolstering their options there. Joe Marchant coming back. so as recently as the last world cup and and i wouldn't say that this this this this center partnership was certainly had a certain role and it wasn't it wasn't ball movement necessarily at the 20 um 2023 world cup but to you laggy and march and certainly certainly served a purpose

40:03Elgan: in that in that tournament just on the subject of players switching positions and dimensions we should always remember it doesn't always work but jamie robert started as a fullback i think he He made one of his first Wales starts on the right wing and he ended up being an absolute bullocking number 12. So, you know, it's the type of thing that does work.

40:20Charlie: Well, how much is that? And we're probably sort of getting into the weeds too much here, but how much of that is Wales with a smaller player pool knowing that that sort of having more conviction or having more sort of a mandate to do that? Because the equivalent would be, and I know a lot of people are thinking, why doesn't Freddie Stewart have a go there? And the real kind of easy rebuttal is, who's he going to play there for? Because Leicester have got a ton of centres that they would prefer. Is he going to have to go to, I don't know, on loan to Nottingham to play? Probably Nottingham wouldn't fancy that either.

40:51Charlie: So the mechanics of it, I guess, with a smaller player pool is maybe more easy. Herbie Farm, for anybody hanging on, is six foot three and 106 kegs, which is basically exactly the same. Pretty much Lomax, he's just signed for the Wallabies.

41:07Alfie: Let me just do some of the admin and the detail around Borthwick's position, because loads of emails, we've touched on a few of them, that he should go. The RFU released a statement on Sunday, Bill Sweeney, the CEO, saying they give him their backing. Quite interesting within that statement that they say they've got France this week and then the summer, which seems to be the timeline at the moment, but certainly no replacement.

41:30Charlie: The summer being daunting as well.

41:32Alfie: Yeah, so away in Joburg, back to Liverpool to play Fiji, and then you're travelling again to Argentina to play Argentina. It's a really tough run of fixtures for England. But my point is that Steve Borthwick is not about to lose his job. It doesn't look like even if England are, as we probably expect, lose in Paris. Final email, maybe to throw it ahead to Super Saturday, which is from Greg, which is a two parter. We'll hopefully get to the other part of your email, Greg, later in the week. But one part of that was how does Borthwick's selection for Italy impact the France game? because Charlie, we've seen Steve Borthwick from Scotland to Ireland be loyal, say, make amends.

42:11Alfie: They didn't do that. They were even worse against Ireland. He absolutely ripped everything up, went fresh, new ideas for Italy. That hasn't worked. So where do you think that possibly leaves England in terms of selection heading to Paris?

42:23Charlie: It's the contendious tournament has been a tournament of stick or twist, hasn't it? And balancing that is, I think, a kind of an awareness that Borthwick has got to maintain relationships with these players. And I think it would feel, I wonder what the kind of knock-on effect of bringing George Ford back straight away on the confidence of someone like Finn Smith. Because theoretically, if you continue with that 10, 12, 13, it's going to be better than it was in Italy.

42:52Alfie: Likewise, Seb Atkinson. What's the impact if you say, actually, no, you're right?

42:57Charlie: It's so, so difficult. I mean, that was always, that was always the, I think a lot of the, in a lot of ways, that side was set up to be more balanced. And there were some, don't get me wrong, there were some good performances. I thought Caden Murley was really good, for instance. I thought Roebuck was good over the ground and sort of hit and miss in the air for him because he's so good there, usually. Is George Furbank finally ready to sort of, and that kind of sums it up, is they feel like they've been waiting for him for a long time. and he would be coming back for a last game of a championship at a shot to nothing in France.

43:32Charlie: They're rocking a hard place with a lot. They don't seem keen to rip up the three sevens back row. Chandler Cunningham himself came on, obviously, in odd circumstances with Tom Curry's withdrawal, but they didn't want to get him into that game. What was really quite a stark aspect of England's performance and actually Borthwick's kind of coaching performance was that there was, I think Italy's minutes from their bench would double that of what England used, about 180 to 90. And 90 minutes across eight replacements is, I mean, Jesus, it's tiny. Some of them were getting three minutes, seven minutes.

44:20Alfie: I think Luke Kowndikki, Chandler Cunningham South, Henry Pollock didn't get much either.

44:26Charlie: That reflects the general anxiety to me. Because previously England were comfortable being proactive using that bench. Now it seems like they were tentative and hanging in that game and that's tricky.

44:38Alfie: I'll say it once again. Thank you to all of you that have emailed in the ruckatthetimes.co.uk. We will try and get to more of your emails on England on Thursday when I will be in Paris with Alex and Will. When are you getting to Paris, Charlie? Are you Friday?

44:53Charlie: Friday, first thing. Okay, fine.

44:54Alfie: So it'll be me, Alex and Will on Thursday in Paris. We'll get through a few more of your emails. Let's tee it up then, fellas. Super Saturday, the end of the Six Nations. Ireland, Scotland. We haven't mentioned too much about Ireland yet. I mean, they've had a really interesting Six Nations, haven't they? They were below par. Andy Farrell came out and hammered them after defeat to France on the opening night. They've won three since with a mixture of performances. Very good against England. not as convincing against Italy and on Friday night against Wales, but they have won and now they host Scotland that they have such a good record against.

45:26Alfie: So we could have an Ireland team that have won four of their five games this Six Nations by the end of it.

45:31Charlie: Maybe important to repeat the context that they came in with, which was Leinster sort of grinding out results without looking great. Ulster looking great, Munster maybe struggling a bit and then also they had a lot of their big guns injured, including the first three loose head props in the pecking order. And I think they've done really well to get to where they have done. I think fans of theirs who are used to success in the Six Nations over recent years are probably a little bit underwhelmed with the flatter performances. So certainly France, then Italy a little bit, and then Wales a little bit.

46:04Charlie: The beacon of probably the most convincing is probably, I was going to say it was one of the better performances of the championship, their performance against England, notwithstanding what France have done and obviously what Scotland did to France. But yeah, this feels defined. I think if they give up this winning record to Scotland, that ends their tournament on a really horribly flat note.

46:28Alfie: Well, I was just about to say, who would you have as favourites for that game? Do you give it to Ireland with the recent history against Scotland or do you give it to the Scots because their performance in this championship has overall been better than Ireland's? Before the tournament, I thought Scotland would win in Dublin.

46:46Elgan: That was my prediction. But I thought that that would come off the back of them losing to France and of Ireland not being in the championship and of Scotland not being in the championship either. So the fact that they are both in the championship and it is now the big statement game early on in the day does alter the picture slightly and I think tilts it slightly more in Ireland's favour. But as we've shown time and time again over the recent weeks, that they keep on, everyone keeps on surprising us in fun ways. Just one thing I wanted to say on the subject of Ireland, what has struck me as most interesting is there's so much talk about an aging team and regenerating.

47:22Elgan: I think when we talk about regenerating, we think of 19 and 20 year olds. And yet how good Andy Farrell has been at regenerating with Robert Balakoon and Stuart McCloskey, who are both just either side of 30 a few years. And it shows you don't need to regenerate with young pups. You can regenerate with people who are dying for a chance and they take it so well.

47:41Charlie: And transformative sort of styles of players, right? And Balakoon, who's super fast, as well as being a good footballer. And with McCloskey, who can just do absolutely everything, seemingly.

47:50Alfie: Speaking of Big 12s, yeah, I mean, there's a prime example, isn't there? So Ireland-Scotland's the first game on Super Saturday. Be a big chance for Scotland, that, as well, to win four games this championship. For both teams, really, it's going to be so fascinating. The next game, 4.40, Wales-Italy. Again, for the Italians here, this is another significant match, isn't it? a chance to win their third this championship? Wales aiming to just win one for the first time in ages?

48:18Charlie: I'm backing Wales here. I think they're going to win.

48:22Elgan: I think it's such an intriguing class. I think the funny thing for Italy is that it will be the first time they've won three games in the Six Nations, but they probably still will finish fourth because of the points, which is a shame for them if they do win three and still don't quite break into the top half of the table. But before the championship, I thought Wales would perhaps beat Scotland and lose to Italy. And I think, again, slightly different picture. I think it wouldn't surprise me if Wales won. I feel like it could be building towards them finally getting that first win for the first time in three years.

48:53Elgan: But again, Italy have won the past two in Cardiff. So who knows?

48:57Alfie: Who knows? And this is a championship where predictions, if we haven't learned by now, making predictions is a foolish thing. France, England, the final game. the game that was talked about before a ball had been kicked as a potential title decider a grand slam decider well France might be able to decide the title England are absolute million miles away from that I mean the only reason really here lads that I could give for England to do the result is the thing that people have been saying this has been a championship of the unexpected that in terms of form in terms of how the teams are playing in terms of where England are it is very difficult

49:28Charlie: to to make a case for them isn't it speaking of predict pre-tournament predictions I was one thing I was convinced about was that Steve Bothick would go to France with a smart plan to take away France's sort of strengths. I have to say that confidence hasn't survived into this last round.

49:49Alfie: Do you know what it does remind me of though? Is when England beat Ireland with the Marcus Smith drop goal and that was an Irish team that was at Twickenham I think it's different context but it was an Irish team that were formidable no one gave England a chance and they were able to do it but it is those sorts of straws that I think you're having to clutch at to make a case for England

50:07Charlie: No, exactly that and I actually think they could play well in the context of what they've delivered so far this championship and lose by 20 because actually I was watching sort of watching that front Scotland game thinking oh this is what England are going to have to face next week they just do seem to they've had this championship after the Wales game they were playing yeah a smarting Scotland and the smarting Ireland then in Italy side they were at home and fired up for this historic result and now they've got a France side that's just been pantsed by Scotland and um will be fired up to sort of prove a point uh well I'll tell you what we will leave it there

50:49Alfie: we will have more build-up to the final weekend on Thursday the one thing actually Elgin that I do need at the top of the pod you said you had gone through and you had worked out your your favorite six nations weekends it would be remiss of me to ask you what came out on top what Can you give us a flavour of that list? Here we are. I've been phoning it in until now, but now it's time to do it properly.

51:06Elgan: Finally, you're saying. I only considered Six Nations weekends on the basis that Five Nations tournaments were uneven, so not everyone played on the same weekend. Having said that, that is very unfair on the last ever weekend of the Five Nations in 1999, because that's when Scotland won in Paris 36-22, and Wales beat England 32-31 at Wembley, which not only deprived England of a Grand Slam, but then handed the trophy to Scotland. And of course now Scotland are looking to win the title for the first time since then. OK, my top 10. And these were these are in chronological order rather than necessarily my great order.

51:39Elgan: But the first one is 2000 round five. This is Italy's first ever Six Nations. France 42, Italy 31. Nine tries. Italy managed four. That's a pretty good game, I think, in Paris. Ireland 19, Wales 23. Wales won in Dublin. They had a habit of winning in Dublin a lot in the 90s. But that was a great away win. Ronan O 'Gara's first Six Nations. I actually remember that game vividly. 20-year-old Rhys Williams' debut at fullback as well. And then England going for the Grand Slam. Scotland trying to avoid the wooden spoon. And Scotland win 19-13 in the Calcutta Cup. Duncan Hodge game. Duncan Hodge game, I believe.

52:12Elgan: Yeah, so that's pretty good, isn't it? You've got a Wales away win. You've got denying England a Grand Slam, which is what gets everyone out of bed in the morning. And Scotland avoiding the wooden spoon as well. 2003 round one. Italy beating Wales at the Stadio Flaminio. Not bad. England-France, which was always the title decider around that time, and that was the England team that finally won the Grand Slam and then eventually went on to win the World Cup. And then, somewhat relevant but a different way around to this weekend, Ireland beat Scotland 36-6 at Murrayfield, which now doesn't feel like that bigger thing, but at the time Ireland hadn't won at Murrayfield since 1985, so that was an 18-year bit of history broken, so that wasn't bad.

52:49Elgan: 2004, round three, Italy 20, Scotland 14. A lot of Italy wins featuring these weekends for obvious reasons. Ireland won at Twickenham 19-13. England hadn't lost at home for five years. And they were World Cup champions when that happened, of course. And then Wales gave France a really good going card of 29-22. Almost leveled the scores at the end, but couldn't quite do it. Can I forward us to the top of the list? Yes, OK, you can. I mean, I think the best, looking at it all, I think the best weekend was the great Super Saturday of 2015, the Round 5, when you had Wales, Ireland and England all pushing for it.

53:25Elgan: And it is the Super Saturday that everyone remembers because, like I say, you had all three teams going for it. They all had to rack up a score and they all did a really good job of doing it. And then on the subject of prop tries, Vincent de Baty finishing one of the great team scores at Twickenham in that 55-35 England-France game. I've looked at them all. There isn't a perfect Six Nations weekend, but I do think that that 2015 Super Saturday was the best weekend in in in six nations history and if anyone wants to hear the other members of the list feel free to email us and i will send them all over to you there's the fewest notes on

53:59Charlie: that one isn't it the el's got a load a load of notes written for each weekend and then the 2015 one is the great super saturday everybody knows which one he's talking about and i think the thing

54:08Elgan: we were talking about just before we came on that was the great super saturday that established super saturday as a concept really the following three tournaments the championship was all decided before the final weekend every time so we should all just take great joy in the fact that there are three teams in the running this weekend and that's exactly what i was about to do elgin

54:27Alfie: link it back to this weekend at least we have a super saturday where there are different teams in the running and let's see how it pans out next pod for you on thursday charlie see you in paris you will elgin your week weekend off for you elgin is it weekend off me sadly i'll be watching them

54:42Elgan: all uh with great relish from afar and then looking forward to well talking about that Talking about the results, see who wins and then back to a bit of normality. And then just a month's time, we'll be at Twickenham again for the Red Roses return after the World Cup. So we've got lots of stuff to look forward to over the next weeks and months.

54:59Alfie: Women's Six Nations as well. This has been The Ruck. Thank you very much for listening. The Journalists Rugby Podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.