How can anyone stop the Springboks?

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1:30Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times racing through the nation's championship. Round two is done. Round three is coming up this weekend. Will and Alex are on their travels again. They're off to Argentina. So joining me this Monday is Charlie Morgan, fresh from a trip to Liverpool. How are you, Charlie?

1:52Charlie Morgan: Very well, thank you, pal. train hell getting home from Liverpool though I heard yeah horrific horrific and the stadium is awesome there Hill Dickinson is fantastic really nice atmosphere clearly an attendance that was grateful for having a rare England Rugby Union International up there but the way back with a lot of cancellations Daniel Schofield playing the hero by getting us across to Crewe in an Uber and then getting down and just making extra time of the football. That sort of tells you how chaotic and long-winded it all was. But no, back safely. Dan Schofield from the Telegraph there, then being the hero with the travel arrangements.

2:35It says an awful lot if you only made extra time of the football, by the way. That was a hellish journey back. Also, back on this week from the Wiltshire Studios, Stuart Barnes. All right, Barnsie?

2:47Stuart Barnes: Yeah, I thought you were about to say it says an awful lot of the Telegraph. Bell, you're out. I said, I want Scurry, Z Daniels of Nice Bloke. Hey, I get on with Scurry as well. I'm not about to slag him off on the pod. Look, lads, loads to get into once again then in terms of the second round of the Nations Championship. Not quite as maybe blockbuster as the opening round, but nonetheless, lots to get stuck into. For each of you, highlight of the weekend, what stood out?

3:15Charlie Morgan: I it's more sort of I guess it's an ominous kind of feeling about how good South Africa how well sorry they're developing their depth developing their game they weren't perfect against Scotland but you're not going to be if you make 10 changes to your starting lineup Scotland gave that a real crack that was a fantastic game and for South Africa to come out on top I just think reinforces that they're at the top of the tree daylight second and then there or a few sort of scrambling around below that to kind of keep their World Cup bids on track. I thought it was another really, really interesting watch from the Springboks.

3:57Stuart Barnes: Alfie, I'm afraid I'm not going to change, not going to divert my view. And you said, be prepared for something. I was thinking bold, brilliant, brave, the whole game, South Africa versus Scotland. I can't change that. I thought two-thirds of Springboks, not first team, and they were superb because that's one of the best Scottish performances I have seen for a long time. It was a game where, after the England-Fiji match, fans needed something to really shout about, and I was screaming watching that game at the sheer quality of so much of the play. It was a thrilling test match. So interesting that you have both gone for that game.

4:38How do you view it, I suppose, from a Scotland point of view then? Like massively encouraging, but they've ended up losing. Probably the final scoreline's probably not a fair reflection on the game, is it? But they end up losing relatively comfortably. Like massively encouraging signs, but a missed opportunity. Is that fair? How do you view it from a Scottish point of view?

4:58Stuart Barnes: It's not a missed opportunity. It's more about just how we might be witnessing the greatest Test rugby team we've ever seen in South Africa with their strength in depth. I thought Scotland played as well as I have seen them play for a long time, if ever. So I can't say there's a missed opportunity. Yeah, there was the odd Russell pass that went to ground, but there were smatterings of genius there. Tuohy Pilotto was magnificent. Ben White, in his time in France, has grown into one hell of a scrum half. Scotland did so much right, and yet, in the end, they were well beaten by South Africa. So not a missed opportunity for Scotland.

5:41Stuart Barnes: It's funny enough that I wrote an article about South Africa and a lot of times Scottish viewers took it as an offence that I said it was a weakened South African team, but it wasn't. It was still praise of Scotland, but the bigger praise was for South Africa. And as I said, you look at England, Fiji, and you look at everyone else, the real story at the moment is how can you hang on to South Africa's shirt tells as we get near Australia how can you Charlie how can teams I was gonna put that to Barnsley who's I feel like

6:16Charlie Morgan: France are probably closest to them and a fully loaded France would be uh the closest challenges I think you're gonna have to yeah clearly I think the big thing with them is matching them in the aerial stuff while still having enough about you as an attacking force to keep scoring points over the course of the 80 minutes and scotland sort of i think scotland had that was just a fantastic attacking performance from scotland i think they created 15 line breaks which is wild yeah i agree with barnsey to pelotto awesome ben white is such an integral part of how they go about things his service being so crisp his engine being remarkable and i think it's almost sort of a more of the same and the way this maybe the way this i'm really interested to how how this world cup cycle is kind of firming up with however long to go until the tournament whatever it is now 15 months or so i think the the change is that possession is sides are being rewarded for maintaining possession more than I can remember in the test game.

7:26And I think you've got to have weapons within that. Scotland's showing that you can trouble South Africa. So that's encouraging because it will encourage sides in turn to develop that side of their game. But it's going to take something seriously polished, something maybe a little bit out of the box,

7:44Charlie Morgan: to get over on South Africa.

7:47Stuart Barnes: Yeah, I mean, out of the box, it brings you to France. And the fact that I know Thomas Ramos is a fly half who wears a fullbacks number, but he does all sorts of brilliant things. But then we witness Entomac and Jalibert at 10 and 15. And in that second half against Australia, we saw out of the box rugby from them. We saw Jalibert is a wonderful fly half. I think he could be an even better rugby player, full stop, roaming around. And I love the second half combination of those two. And that is the out of the box, the non-obvious that you're going to need to trouble South Africa. It has to be exceptional.

8:32Stuart Barnes: I wrote again, Will Jordan got a hat trick. I know Italy aren't players, but 50 international tries in 56 games. you need players who can do something spectacular you need systems that work you need a French French France are in in the process of rewriting their back row with a bunch of 21 year olds that is what Galtier is thinking in the past we haven't been able to take them on and beat them we've got to do something different France has the bulk to challenge them up front and it has the brilliance behind so to me they are the main contenders but I look at teams like Ireland now and I'm thinking I can't see how Ireland and England at this moment unless they completely change the way they play can live with them I it's it's it's very difficult but it's thrilling because I've never seen a team like South Africa just experimenting and just going through the gears every time and as for the world cup we've got one little blip between now and then and that's the the greatest rivalry the four match test series between south africa and new zealand and that's going to be special but dave runny is new to the post and he's just trying to get his new zealand team together we might see an inkling of the all blacks doing something different i love the way mckenzie is playing 15 to Ruben Loves 10 but that I think uh it is the little blip because that is going to be that's a that's great rugby in its own world everywhere else yes enjoy the 80 minutes but see it in the context of what's coming in 15 months time but this New Zealand South Africa series boy that's out on its own I think it's maybe worth reiterating that South Africa probably got the most transformative player missing from this in Sacha Feinberg and Gomazouli.

10:27France have potentially two of theirs in Ramos and Louis Bielbieri. The players that elevate them as an attacking force. So that's what we're working with there. I think with 1A, certainly South Africa, maybe a bit of daylight, but France fully loaded. Yeah, with those two, plus Dupont and whatever, whatever guys he is in when he returns. And they feel they're shaping up very, very interestingly ahead of the World Cup. But as Barnsley said, I am intrigued as to how Dave Rennie goes about the greatest rivalry too and how he looks to unpick the Springboks. I guess the Springbok response to that might potentially be, didn't they play in November and France had a man advantage for a lot of it?

11:12And South Africa still won with them at arm's length. France may be a better team now, potentially, they might respond to, but it's ominous, isn't it?

11:19Charlie Morgan: For sure. And there was a moment from that game. I think they'd just gone, I think they'd just gone a score ahead South Africa and they won back a box kick and Manny Lebok went for kick pass across his own 22 to Cheslin Colby. Cheslin Colby made a break, kicked down, downfield. That to me was like a, just a snapshot of how they've expanded their game. And they just continue to do that, both in terms of what we're seeing a little bit stylistically from them, but developing their depth too and developing. The biggest kind of compliment you can give Razzy Erasmus and his coaches is that they are pretty close to the sum of their formidable parts, right?

12:02Because, yeah, when they've got it right and they're in a groove as they are, it's a struggle to touch them. You've both mentioned the All Blacks already here and Dave Rennie, just two games in, but I think a lot of encouragement there. And actually, to be fair to Italy, this was a pretty close match up until the second half, the early part of that second half, where the All Blacks really put some distance between them. But is this a New Zealand team, Barnsley, that are really playing to their strengths now, perhaps more than they did under Scott Robertson?

12:29Stuart Barnes: Yeah, I think this is an All Black team that's trying to play traditional New Zealand rugby. And by traditional, for the last 25 years, traditional all-black rugby has been a brand of rugby that has been more skilful and quicker paced than any other rugby. South Africa with a big powerful team trying to smash them off the pedestal. New Zealand with a fast team outflanking South Africa and I think Dave Runny is trying to get back to that and they have to get back to that because under Scott Robertson he a little bit like Steve Borthwick when he took over from his role in the Crusaders he started looking at trends and New Zealand started following trends and when New Zealand followed trends you've got to remember that it's a great rugby nation but it doesn't have a vast and different type of population like South Africa would have and I thought New Zealand became followers and they can't win World cups by following other teams they have to set the way and when you've got guys like McKenzie at full back and and guys like Will Jordan then if you can find your way to get outside teams like South Africa to ensure the game is played at a breakneck pace with massive skills start to finish then you might just have a chance and I think Rennie understands that just picking the best team and then trying to take on the box at their own game or France at their own game will leave them beaten that's why I'm I'm really intrigued to see what happens in this test series between the box and New Zealand I would imagine South Africa would win they have home advantage until Baltimore but from a New Zealand perspective it's making sure that they can change the narrative They had a record defeat in Wellington.

14:21Stuart Barnes: It really hurt them last year. They've got to be turning that. And if they're losing matches, they've got to be losing them 32, 31, and thinking next year, come the World Cup, come a neutral venue, we can turn that around. So for New Zealand, it is about pushing the box all the way. I think for South Africa, Charlie, it's about trying to impose themselves and perhaps land a real psychological blow against their old enemy. 100 % and I think that's why that's actually why to rewind a little bit getting up over France was pretty important for Renny in that first game in the context of his first year going for those four test matches where I feel like South Africa had the bit between their teeth to really make a psychological statement against England I think they'll be exactly the same against New Zealand.

15:13That's not to say they didn't respect Scotland at all, although they made those changes. Razia Rasmus spent the whole week saying, look, history tells us Scotland are at the moment a better side than England. So we are absolutely respectful of what they're going to bring.

15:26Charlie Morgan: One thing just to touch on with Scotland is the amount of line breaks they made through the middle with those little tip on passes with their forwards. Really interesting because that's an area of the game that they, it was good to see that they really won't neglect that. We know how the sweeping back play that was a really big statement of their win, big sort of feature, sorry, of their win over Argentina to complement that with that forward play too really bodes well for them. And for them, this next 15 months is kind of framed by how they go against Ireland again in that crucial World Cup pool game to ensure that they miss France in an early knockout game.

16:09Charlie Morgan: so it's funny that the Gregor Townsend's tenure is sort of just punctuated with these crucial games against Ireland and he's got another one and it's about formulating a way to win that. It definitely feels like there is a theme though when we talk about Scotland and how they hurt the Springboks at the weekend when you talk about New Zealand under Dave Rennie and how they're looking to play of moving the ball to space attacking ambition same with France in terms of the the Untemak and Jalabert combination that we saw at the weekend, that that is maybe a trend and that is maybe how teams are going to have to try and take on the spring box.

16:49I suppose even actually, this is to a lesser extent, but you think of Ireland and how Andy Farrell's looking to adapt the team at the moment and a big focus in the Six Nations was getting more pace on the edge, that maybe it's just the way that teams are trying to move. Ireland, by the way, we're going to be having a chat with Peter O 'Reilly fairly shortly on the pod. He's now moved to New Zealand. Ireland taking on New Zealand at Eden Park this weekend. Just give a moment, though, Barnsley, in appreciation for Will Jordan. You mentioned him just a moment ago, but his 50th test try, now record try scorer for the All Blacks, for all the incredible rugby players that country has produced and incredible back three players they have produced.

17:28That is a hell of a list for him to come out on top of.

17:31Stuart Barnes: Well, especially when you recognise that he has not played through a vintage period of All Black rugby. When he scores that try, he does this sharky sort of fin thing. And it's entirely appropriate because he is rugby's ultimate predator at the moment. You know, along with Cheslin Colby and BLBRE, we're going through a generation of wingers, the like of which we've never seen. But this guy's slightly different because he's also a very good fullback. fullback he reads the game extremely well when he broke into the New Zealand team a few years ago they taught him how not to be a winger how to be someone who could just float into positions and that's what he is he reminds me a little bit of Damien Penault in that he doesn't get in his position and stay there he's looking all the time and the players know you know if someone like If Finn Russell played with Penno, if Russell played with all these great wingers, I think you would see the most astonishing thing.

18:40Stuart Barnes: That try where he sort of reversed past, he put one of the Scots in a hole and they scored. It was quite brilliant. And if he was with Jordan, if he was with Penno, then you would see this game being broken. And that's what, I think that's what you've got to do against. And it keeps coming back to it against the best, against South Africa. And what I love about Jordan is the fact he sees the game so well. And then when he gets the ball, he's deadly, but it's his vision that marks him out as someone extraordinary, I think. Can I just finish this section with maybe just a quick word on Australia?

19:16Barnsley, when we spoke last week, you were fairly positive about the Wallabies. And I want to join you in that positive place, right, about Australia, particularly ahead of them hosting the World Cup next year. But you look at the game at the weekend, another game, they were leading at halftime and then 30 unanswered points all right they're playing against you know a very good French team I get that and it kind of the game gets away from them what did you make of the Wallaby performance and then I suppose more broader it almost feels like you just need to get Les Kiss in the building now I don't know what do you make of them?

19:50Stuart Barnes: I think they need to get a fly half in the building yeah that's going to be a challenge we talked about Sasha Feiberg and Gomazulu poor old Australian whoever they pick they go down injured and nothing against Meredith but he's not a test match player and he was jettisoned in really quickly and it made a mess of their momentum for a team that lost six on the bounce I think there's still reasons to be encouraged wild as that statement may seem you know last week I was talking about their tip pass offload from pick and drive and how good it was against France they went at them completely differently and that's what I do like about Smith France would have been ready for this fringe attack one out what did Australia do they scored three first half tries that were all as pick and drive in an English way as you could imagine most traditional and they hammered at them so they do have options they do have variety they do need a fly half and I think probably now the whole Joe Schmidt thing has gone on too long he's a marvellous coach but this handover has taken too long Charlie yeah I think it's a really kind of curious situation and then the fly half thing just to pick that up is a real shame because I thought Carter Gordon not only looked quite assertive in that in that game against Ireland I think he fits into the kind of it's clearly not quite at these guys caliber but the Jalibert, Feinberg and Gomazulu, Ruben Love a little bit who are running threats as well and I think that seems to be so important that seems to be exactly where the game is going in the context of as I say sides being rewarded for keeping possession having that running threat from

21:37Charlie Morgan: slightly further back maybe from sort of somebody who's holding behind those pods of forwards and arcing around to really hurt teams like right Richie Mwanga sort of kind of made a trademark I think he's probably the guy, but you're right, Barnsley. Got to keep him fit. Well, we'll see how Australia get on. If they can get a win, they play Italy this weekend. Speaking of Australia, Peter O 'Reilly has left there. He's landed in New Zealand. Ireland take on the All Blacks at Eden Park this coming weekend. And I had to catch up with Peter to look back on the win over Japan and then look ahead to that massive game against New Zealand.

22:17well Peter live from New Zealand you traveled across from Australia let's start by looking back Japan 20 Ireland 36 is it two from two happy days or was there a bit of Irish frustration in in elements of that performance at the weekend yeah I don't think there were there were massive celebrations uh certainly Andy Farrell's demeanor afterwards was fairly low-key but he acknowledged that it was a flawed performance, but he was also quick to make the point that it was a scratch side. You know, he'd made nine changes from the team that beat Australia and Sydney. He'd given caps to four new players.

22:56Therefore, it was always likely that there was going to be a clunkiness to it. And that's what we got. So it doesn't really have a huge relevance to what's going to happen this week. But in the overall scheme of looking ahead to next year's World Cup, He's given opportunities to a few guys and he had one major win in the performance of Sean Janssen, the Colant No. 8, who did enough perhaps to be on the bench against New Zealand this weekend, but looks like somebody who's a contender for the World Cup. And then there was two young props made their debut. Sam Illow, a tight head. And Billy Bowen is only 20.

23:36He got a run at loose head, partly because there's a drastic injury crisis at loose head. But he's somebody with a big future. And then Bryn Ward, also his very promising back row. He got some time off the bench as well. So to come away with five points, to be unbeaten, to be leading the European Conference, if that's what we're going to call it. That's all positive. But Farrell, you know, he was acknowledging that there had been technical deficiencies and bits that weren't so good. But, you know, generally, I think Ireland are in a relatively good place. Yeah, I was going to ask you about those new players.

24:12So do you think it is Sean Jansen that stood out the most amongst all of them from what you said there? It sounds like it. Yeah, well, when he was asked for his general comments after the game, Farrell mentioned Jansen first, you know, unprompted. so that was clearly a bonus from his point of view and what he liked about Jansen's performance was that he didn't play himself in as it were, to use a cricketing analogy he didn't tiptoe into his first test, he grabbed it he went after it. There were a couple of guys who didn't necessarily take their chance that well Craig Casey at Scrum Half had an ordinary enough outing And so the gap between Jemison Gibson Park and the next scrum half is vast.

24:59That's a bit of a worry. But older players like Robbie Henshaw and Bundy Aki played like they know that they need to play well to stay in contention. All those sort of things are positive. So I would say there were plenty of positive things to take from what was a forgettable enough game played in front of a stadium that was only a third full. it wasn't a great look for the nation's championship. But what I like about Farrell is that whether he has a big win or a scratchy win like this he doesn't get too excited or he doesn't get too downcast. I mean if we cast our minds forward as we've said Farrell really rotated the team here so I don't know exactly where his mind is going to be ahead of Eden Park but massive challenge this weekend.

25:46Should we start with fly half? Sam Prendergast not selected, not featuring against Japan. Does that suggest that he is going to be given the opportunity to have the 10 jersey against the All Blacks? I would say definitely, yeah. He was rested. It was an opportunity to give Ciarán Frawley a run at 10, which he has so rarely been given wide at Leinster. And the reason he's leaving Leinster and going to Connaught next season and joining up with Stuart Lancaster is because that's the position where he sees his best chance going forward. but Prendergast has turned his season around from where he was taken off early against Italy during the Six Nations and he was definitely number two if not number three behind Jack Crowley and Harry Byrne so he's back at number one Crowley as you'll know Alfie isn't here because of injury but this big opportunity for Prendergast to play at one of the cathedrals of world rugby It's interesting that the All Blacks chose to play Ireland at Eden Park, which is sold out, 46 ,800, whereas they played France in Christchurch, which is a 30 ,000-seater stadium.

26:58They remember the fact that Ireland won a series down here four years ago. So they obviously thought that the team that they wanted to beat or that they saw as a bigger threat by bringing them to Eden Park was Ireland, which is interesting. So Prendergast will come back in. Yes, I think so. and the team will look a lot like the one that played Australia two weekends ago. The one that we're all interested to see, the change that we're interested to see is whether Robert Ballacoon is fit. Farrell indicated that his hamstring would have recovered in time for Saturday because he offers the ingredient that Ireland do lack, which is raw pace, as you remember it, you saw it at Twickenham.

27:41apart from that I don't I think it'll be a fairly predictable selection I counted six in the likely pack who were on the Ireland team that clinched a series down here four years ago in Wellington so they'll go in as underdogs but the way the Farrell has been framing the game is this is a chance of a lifetime chance to create history no no country has won an Eden Park in the professional era the last team to do it was france in 1994 and he but he added the caveat that we're going to have to play the games of the game of our lives so that's how he's framing it to us you'll have to imagine that's how he's framing it to the players as well it's they're not talking about it being the end of the season because they don't want to bring that into the equation or into the mindset but it is a it's an opportunity to to go up against another team who are two from two It's the last game of this set of Nations Championship games and he's framing it as a big opportunity for his players.

28:42Yeah, that New Zealand record at Eden Park is extraordinary, isn't it? And Farrell might not be framing it as it's the end of the season, but let's be honest here, this is a great final game of the season, isn't it? It's a great way for Ireland to round off this first block in the Nations Championship. It's a really exciting match this weekend. It is. you're already looking ahead slightly to next year because we're based down around this neck of the woods and the world cup is in australia next year you know it's fascinating to see scotland going so well albeit losing to a weakened spring box team but you know them winning in argentina and then producing a real performance against against the spring box you're thinking well in just over a year from now ireland are going to be playing a pool game against them with so much at stake.

29:30That's in Perth at the World Cup. Whoever finishes second in that pool is going to have France in the round of 16. So you're thinking, you know, Scotland have lost Ireland 12 games in a row. That can't go on forever. I think if Ireland can, I don't expect them to beat New Zealand. I think New Zealand have got a bit of a bounce from Dave Rennie, especially in the second half against Italy. They're playing in a way that suits them. They're attacking, they're playing with ball in hand. So I think they'll be justifiable favourites going in. But I don't expect Ireland to roll over. I think their mentality and their togetherness is good.

30:11And it's a fantastic opportunity for Prendergast, as you mentioned, to advance his credentials as the guy who can go to the World Cup as Ireland's number one fly half. Well, Peter, looking forward to it. And yeah, let's see what happens. but I think it's probably the game of the weekend to finish off. Yeah, I like the look of Argentina versus England as well, but New Zealand versus Ireland just happens to be the two teams or two of the three teams that were unbeaten going head-to-head, as I say, at one of the great venues of World Rugby. Awesome. We'll speak to you soon on the pod, Peter. Thanks, Alfie.

30:47All the best.

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32:17protect yourself now at aura.com slash safety so charlie barnsey i mean it'll be quite revealing won't it that game for where ireland are but also quite revealing for where new zealand are we've spoken about them already we're encouraged we're encouraged by the style of rugby that they're playing but that's gonna

32:37Charlie Morgan: be a great game this weekend yeah fantastic um ireland with a lot of kind of ip about how to win there having gone down there and won that um fantastic series a few years ago i just think the weight of that eden park record is is significant i feel and um as much i think as much as ireland have been probably below their best and sort of saved by the inherent grit and togetherness and know-how that they've got as a squad um i think they can certainly mount a big challenge i just think new zealand or i just think new zealand will have enough but you're right

33:16Stuart Barnes: hugely revealing for both sides yeah island have not been playing well they do know how to grind out victories they know how to be very competitive um but eden park is a key here the ground is as important as the teams new zealand see it as some sort of rugby heaven it's very hard to get a sniff, let alone a victory, get a sniff of victory there. And I think this will be billed as a very big day for Rennie, and I think New Zealand will be extremely pumped up for this match. It might be premature, but I think we'll see a really strong all-black performance, and the world will be saying they're ready to take on the Springboks when they're not quite.

34:04But I can see New Zealand possibly very tight for 60 minutes,

34:10Stuart Barnes: but then Jordan and company just having a bit too much in broken field. And I can see Ireland just not being able to plug the gaps. And Mackenzie and co running riot as he did against Scotland last year. So I'll take New Zealand comfortably and a few question marks for Ireland perhaps. Yeah, game of the weekend for me. Really looking forward to it. Let's get on to England. I've mentioned already Will and Alex are heading to Argentina as we're recording this. So they'll be back with you on Thursday to bring you all the colour from on the ground out there, react to the team that Steve Borthwick selects for the third game of the Nations Championship.

34:47But Charlie, you are up in Liverpool. You've been writing about it. You've been analysing that England's performance. What has stood out to you in the victory over Fiji?

34:56Charlie Morgan: I think principally that I'm higher on it as a performance than a lot of people. Because I just think we went in and it was absolutely right to say that this was pretty much lose-lose or a kind of no win kind of scenario going into this for Steve Borthwick in England. Because there's obviously something up with Fiji. They were and they were really poor, really, really poor in this game. The discipline was horrible. They were kind of predictably flaky in the set piece. their head coach afterwards said he was pretty pleased with how the scrum went which sort of was bizarre they won a couple of penalties at the scrum but apart from that yeah they look really poor but I have to say in very challenging conditions it was above 30 degrees and it was it looked horrible to play I think you've inherently got to take a bit of the joy out of the occasion certainly for the first 50 minutes when you play Fiji because if it's an exciting eye-catching kind of occasion then Fiji are going to be playing well and so I think England actually controlled the pace of it quite well although the scum resets were excruciating I thought they softened Fiji up I think they could have been a bit more accurate England but I think what they will have got out of it is certainly by the end of that game and I know that the red card sort of is a big caveat here and Fiji was sort of more fatigued as a result But I think they've got, they always wanted to have a look at Van Rensburg, Jancy Van Rensburg and Freeman in the centre.

36:30Charlie Morgan: That looked like it could pose sides problems. They are bringing through players who are going to become genuine World Cup options in Noah Kalori and Henry Pollock. I don't think anything changes the fact that the Argentina game will define this campaign. and they absolutely have to be good in Argentina. But I do think it was, their mission was to kind of stop the rot, stop these five, the run of five consecutive test defeats. And they did that with a performance that was, you know, how to describe it? Just fine. Like that, it was absolutely sort of...

37:13Stuart Barnes: Do you think it was clinical?

37:15Charlie Morgan: Towards the end, yes. I think it was, and actually maybe in a lot of how they Jamie George spoke afterwards about look it's about finding an advantage in a game and driving home an advantage and I think they did that with how they went after Fiji in the tight although they could have been a little bit more clinical a couple of lost balls from the driving wall but nearly yeah nearly clinical and I think that's there was actually a bit so it was really interesting player coming Jamie George before this game he was he laid down the law he was really forthright to his team in the huddle before they went into the changing room.

37:52Charlie Morgan: And then in the changing room afterwards, you can see it in the broadcast. Obviously, we couldn't see it from our seats, but it was flashed on the big screen. James George looked nervous and Elie Cheson was behind him. And you just saw him go, come on, Jinx, as though, right, let's be as composed as we can, even though the stakes are high. I think England felt that the stakes were palpably high in this game. And afterwards, we can say, oh, what did we learn and whatever. but the fact that we learned that England with that tension could get through what was potentially a horrible banana skin for them.

38:22Stuart Barnes: I fear slightly though that because England were so concerned about an opponent who proved to be of no threat whatsoever, because of that I feel this is another 80 minutes where the vast majority we saw England doing the things that they can do well. And yes, it's very easy for me on the outside to say they should have tested themselves in the areas where Fiji are very strong and England have not been so strong to try and develop this all round game. it's very easy for writers to say that and I accept that and I think England played well in what they tried to do but that's another 80 minutes gone and it takes us to South America without really knowing anything more about England than we knew before kickoff other than they handled the nerves but these this was nerve handling against one of the worst international test teams I have seen in a decade.

39:25Stuart Barnes: So the problem is, does Steve Borthwick say, right, the changes we needed to make from the start against Fiji that we didn't because we were so concerned after the South African defeat, can we make those changes? Or will England say it worked against Fiji, it was okay so let's stay where we are and if England play Argentina and let's say they lose with 14 of the same team we will be not only back where we were before kick-off last Saturday we'll be further back we'll be back in the first 15 minutes of Johannesburg and so I think the pressure remains on England because they didn't have the bravery the management selection the team's game style to go out there and impose and I'll keep going back to Henry Pollock that is why he is growing on me every time I see him because he has the courage to go out and play and England need players not to go okay boss let's do this they need to go out there and really start to impose because it's a race for Australia and England are just getting left behind.

40:46Stuart Barnes: And that's why I want players who have the courage to be distinct and to do things. That Fiji game wasn't such an event. It puts more pressure on England in Argentina. I think there's a lot to unpack here. I agree that I think there is still big pressure on England. I think if they lose to Argentina, then all of that negativity, all the questions around the direction of this team and the head coach, all of that, I think, comes back. So there is pressure on them to win here. Barnsley, you get us on to Henry Pollock. that was always going to be a part of this discussion. If you're looking at changes and possible changes for the match this coming weekend, I'm presuming you are firmly in the camp of he needs to be starting now for England?

41:25Stuart Barnes: Yeah, whilst admitting that some people forget that a bloke comes off the bench in 45 minutes, scores a hat-trick and tries, changes the game, and then idiots like me are saying, well, he's got a star. And Steve Borthwick can say, but look, he got a hat-trick, he did everything that was needed. but it's about circumstances. And I'm thinking when England play the best, certain players are going to need to start because England need to get those starts. The starts we've heard about, which they didn't get in South Africa. How do they do that? You've put your fireworks on, you get the pyrotechnics, you get the catalysts on from the start to ensure that you don't get this slow and lazy start, which is then countered when you bring the bench on.

42:13Stuart Barnes: But England haven't been able to counter it. And I think they're not countering it because at the moment there's a little bit too much thought about. Impact means some of our best players, some of our lightning rods come on at the 50 minute mark. For England to sort out this first 20 minutes against the best teams, they might need those blokes on from the start. And that's why I think Pollock needs the responsibility and he needs the option. And, you know, people saying, well, you know, you can't talk about him being captained until he's regularly picked. But England selectors and Lions selectors and any selectors, none of them are gods.

42:51Stuart Barnes: You know, they're not impervious. They get things wrong. And I think England are getting it wrong, not starting with Pollock. I think they clearly need someone who can just crank through the gears like that. And he's your man. Do you know what though, Barnsley, with this number eight discussion and should Pollock start or not, I feel like we're looking in the wrong places for issues in this England team almost. Like if Henry Pollock start, I've got absolutely no problem with that. But I also look at it and I think Ben Earle over the last 18 months, maybe not necessarily in the last two weeks, but over a pretty chunky period has been England's best player, I would say.

43:28Pollock is having a massive impact coming off the bench. And actually, I don't think it's as big an issue as it is being made into. Like, either way, I think it works, whether it's Earl coming off the bench or whether at the moment it's Henry Pollock coming off the bench.

43:43Stuart Barnes: I disagree with you there, Alfie. And I'll disagree with quite a bit of conviction. If you look at the first 20 minutes against South Africa, when England were on the back foot, when there was no one to get them on the front foot, it's not about who's good, who's better than who. It's about who has the characteristics to achieve a certain role in a certain part of the game. And that's my argument. I may be wrong. I haven't seen Pollock start hardly ever once for England. But paradoxically, I would say that's why I want to see him because England identify slow starts. I identify slow starts. And I think here's a possible way to negate that problem.

44:32Yeah, fair enough. I mean, look, as I say, if Henry Pollock starts, then I'll be as excited as everyone else. I just think there are bigger issues in terms of different positions in this team. Charlie, weigh in for us. Barnsley mentions there actually we've seen Pollock start once and it was one of the worst England performances ever at Twickenham against Ireland if he does start how do England get the best out of Henry Pollock in that back row everybody is loathe to sort of look to the premiership for sort of um answers aren't they and it's kind of fashionable fashionable to bash the premiership but I think you can look at how Northampton have handled Henry Pollock and going Going back to May, when Northampton were pumped by Leicester, Henry Pollock was a replacement and he came on in, I think, about the 50th minute.

45:15But Saints had already lost the game. They were 34-5 down. And I think that then became, in a few ways, that became a catalyst for how Henry Pollock went about the rest of the season. From there, he was all business and he was starting. And Saints, crucially, ensured that the pack was balanced around him to bring out his best. So they had a bopping lock in Van Der Mesht or Ed Prowse, often with the other on the bench. They had Josh Kemeny looking after the line out at six. And then they had either Kalamczyk or Tom Pearson in the other starting back row spot. And this is the point. With Henry Pollock, it's not about whether he's open side or number eight.

45:53It's whether you've covered the bases around him. And England need to learn from that because in his only test start so far against Ireland, Henry Pollock was in a back row with Ben Earle and Tom Curry. I looked back last night, they then had Guy Pepper and Sam Underhill on the bench. And in that game, England didn't just look sort of flat and inaccurate. they also look really unbalanced as a side and I think just balancing it to give him the best

46:22Charlie Morgan: chance of success is absolutely key and I'm not sure whether that means a bit of compromise I think on Pollock's part as well because if you start him instead of Pepper and you have him and Earl it means that one of those two have got to be really smart around the breakdown because I thought Guy Pepper did that job quite unselfishly against Fiji if he starts instead of Earl it means that Pollock will have to carry in a few more slightly um it either means that he'll have to carry in carry in sort of a bit more heavy traffic or it means that other carriers like George Martin or and Ellis Gens you're going to have to kind of stand up and and help him out but either way I think there's a really strong case um and a growing case to do so and I'm really on board with Barnsley's kind of view that it's a bit about vibes now heading towards the World Cup.

47:14Charlie Morgan: I think he's going to have to be a starter by the time the World Cup rolls around and I think they're going to have to look at doing it. And Argentina's a good place to do it also because they have some big dynamic back five forwards. Marcus Kramer, what a test. Right, exactly. Kramer, Matera, But Oviedo is an absolute monster, isn't he? So England were impressive a year ago against Argentina, but they kicked a lot. I think they kicked 80 times across the two tests there. And I'm not sure. I think Argentina will be absolutely ready for that sort of game now. And they were ready in November, weren't they?

47:57Charlie Morgan: So England are probably going to have to play a little bit of a different way, 12 months on. and that might mean Pollock but it will certainly mean making sure the rest of the pack is balanced with enough power. George Martin's a big part of that too but it's about setting Henry Pollock up for success. They've just got to be really mindful of doing that, I think. Any other changes for England? We saw Noah Kalori on his debut come in, score a try, Van Rensburg the same as well. So outside of Pollock, what other changes do you think we could or would you like to see ahead of them playing Argentina?

48:31Charlie Morgan: I think they will, however they do it, whether it's from the start, which will be bold or to somehow engineer it within the sort of match day 23. I think they'll want to have a look at Van Rensburg and Freeman together as the midfield. The really bold, the super bold way of doing that is with Calori on the wing. and if we're thinking about really finding out about World Cup potential and the World Cup potential of a gun England 23 that would be the way they'd do it it might be that they that they keep Freeman on the wing initially and finish and he finishes alongside Van Rensburg because Van Rensburg's versatility allows them to move that around a bit I actually thought a guy who played well and has a really good manner about him for this England side was Henry Slade at the weekend.

49:21Charlie Morgan: I just think him coming in with good domestic form maybe emboldens him a bit more. And I think I've always thought that he's quite good for young players around him. So yeah, certainly potential backline tweaks to be made as well.

49:36Stuart Barnes: Yeah, behind that, I would like to see, I don't think Tommy Freeman has got a lot to prove at 13. and I think England can get a lot more out of him on the wing at the moment. I understand that he is perceived as someone with a high ceiling so you want to look at him and Van Rensburg but I would definitely start Van Rensburg at 12 and I would have Freeman maybe coming in for half an hour, 20 minutes to see. And of course dependent, not something that in selection today You say, that's what we're going to do. You actually wait and see where the match is taking you because England do need a win first and foremost.

50:20Stuart Barnes: But I like the idea of Slade and I like Slade playing 13 to Van Rensburg's 12 because it brings Tommy Freeman into the game in a way that, like I say, the French wingers, Will Jordan would love. you can play off him because he's got these lovely soft hands in that 13 position they call it the edge now England have not been able to exploit that area and Freeman has the running lines and the ability to play off someone with Slade's skill and be deadly there and be much more dangerous than he is at 13 where either England or he think the object of a 13 is to carry Harden straight into the traffic.

51:09Stuart Barnes: That's a waste of Tommy Freeman. So I'd go, yeah, the centre partnership, as I discussed, with Freeman on the wing. I also finished the season in average form, but we're talking about England-Argentina, and Max Jomo played 12, and he played one of the finest England inside centre performances against Argentina that I've seen for a long time, and it was about distribution. it was about seeing space it was the cross-kicking game i know people will say you can't play a jomo and slade it doesn't have the power but i would love to see england going george martin's there pollock's there they've got all this dynamic ball carrying up front i'd love to see a little bit of panache in the midfield to see where that takes an england back back three which would freeman coming in with 20 to go.

52:04Stuart Barnes: We then see Kalori on for 20 real minutes. Well, plenty of selection headaches then for Steve Borthwick and England. The fixtures then this weekend, if I run you through them, New Zealand, Ireland, Japan, France, Australia, Italy, Fiji, Scotland, South Africa, Wales, and then Argentina against England. What stands out? We've said already, but New Zealand, Ireland, I think comfortably is the pick of the fixtures. Maybe a word on Wales, Wales, victory against Fiji in the opening round, defeat to Argentina. They now have the task of heading to South Africa. I mean, that one could get ugly, Barnsley.

52:41Stuart Barnes: It'll be a test of South Africa because psychologically they've won this match already. And it's a great chance for Wales not to be scared, to know they're not going to win this game and to go out and try things. It sounds crazy. The best they've got that we know of can't get within 40 points, 50 points of South Africa. So let's see the things they've been practicing in the shadows, in the darkness, and see if Wales can develop in another way. So I'm fascinated by that game. A, if South Africa have the mindset just to go and pummel and play beautiful rugby in tandem. And B, whether Wales can not be put off by the fact they cannot win this game, but they can put in a performance and it's not about winning for Wales it's about a performance and if Wales were to lose and score three or four tries and and perhaps concede a lot in the last 15 minutes they could travel back from South Africa saying that is a really good day's work

53:49Charlie Morgan: Charlie what stands out for you yeah I can't I can't look past Eden Park and I do but I do also I think that the Argentina, the last one of the slate, I just think for finding out something about this England side, I think we will get an answer either way because you're right that we, well, we've been speaking about it. We've been speaking about it all kind of podcast that it's how unfulfilling it is when you have a test match and you don't really find that you just kind of back where you were as a bit of stasis about it. There will be an answer either way after, after that game in Argentina for England.

54:24And I think that's certainly intriguing as to their future direction. Well, as always, looking forward to the weekend's action. If you want to send us an email, the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Barnsley, Charlie, pleasure as always, lads. Charlie, just actually very quickly, how gutted are you to miss out on the Argentina trip? Maybe not even for the rugby, but to miss the World Cup semi-final with England playing Argentina on Wednesday?

54:50Charlie Morgan: I have to say that is the, yeah, without betraying confidences, there's been a lot of chat about how that is a serious event to go alongside the work of the rugby. But yeah, being in Argentina for Wednesday is seriously cool. Yeah, that is gutting to miss out on, absolutely. yeah I mean that's potentially one of your great memories isn't it for Will and Alex depending on how the result happens could also be absolutely miserable I think either way no

55:22Stuart Barnes: it can't be miserable for God's sake think about the stakes yeah indeed indeed as I've said already a couple of times Will and Alex back with you later on in the week on Thursday they'll be doing a pod from Argentina no doubt the football will get a mention in that as well but Charlie Barnsey speak to you both soon Thank you to all of you that have been listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

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