How Can England stun the Springboks?

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1:47Hello, everyone. This is The Ruck, the journalist rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. We're back on the ground in Johannesburg, as promised, Thursday episode with Alex Lowe. Hello. How's it going? Pretty good. Pretty good, thank you.

2:00Alex Lowe: Yeah, paddles going well. Interesting team announcements this week. Yeah. Hoping to do a bit more exploring than I have done of Johannesburg so far. I'd like to go to the Apartheid Museum and maybe Nelson Mandela's house. Bit of culture? Well, it's been a bit, it's a little kind of stayed here, if that's the right word. It's a bit soulless. We're in Santa and in a hotel attached to a shopping mall. But really the only thing to do is to play paddle. So we have made full use of the paddle club. Yeah, and we're joined by a very special guest on the Ruck this week, Alex. It's the one and only Ted Lasso.

2:33Great timing. Give them a couple of World Cup.

2:35Charlie Morgan: I was well and truly bounced up by Steve Borthwick. It's actually Charlie Morgan, by the way. I asked him a question and he paused and said, what's this? Looking at my moustache, which has been around for a couple of months. That's not a good attention to detail. You've had that for a long time, actually. More pronounced, maybe with a wet shave just before I came out, as in came to the presser. And he, yeah, put a lot of pressure on my question, I thought, because there was quite a lot of chat about Ted Lasso leading into a question. But I felt like I kept my nerve well.

3:06Alex Lowe: And then he finished it by going, I think we're turning this into a real nausea rugby conversation that no one else is interested in. And I was like, well that's kind of what we're here for. I'm quite interested. Exactly, yeah. Charlie's our analyst. We want the

3:16Charlie Morgan: nausea stuff. He said it was a compliment because he likes Ted Lasso, so I'll take that. And then as another compliment I was saying to you afterwards I think you're less Ted Lasso, more sort of like David Warner Aussie cricketer.

3:29Alex Lowe: But has Balfour ever actually watched Ted Lasso? I don't see it as being his thing. I haven't watched Ted Lasso, so you're going to have to help me out here. I have watched it. My sister is in Ted Lasso. Oh, yes. That's cool. The famous sister. Yeah, she's on telly. Rebecca Love. She's doing very well. She's hosting the Football World Cup in America on Fox Sports. And trying to keep Alexi Lalas and Zlatan-y bit from each other, hasn't she? But she's in the second series. And there's a meme that goes around where Ted Lasso is like, she's like saying, don't do this at home. And Ted Lasso going, yeah, do do this at home.

4:05Alex Lowe: anyway I think she's now in the new series as well in fact I know she's in the new series as well exciting times so you're just riding on the coattails of your famous sister is that what we're saying? she's my younger sister so that's really annoying but yes that's basically what's happening well sit rep as Alex mentioned we're in Sandton Mall if anyone's been to Johannesburg this is where lots of the teams stay England aren't far away, the box aren't far away either I've been here for what 7 or 8 days, you guys have been here for a little bit less and if you hear the sort of low thump of some sick beats, I'm going to call them, then that's the in-house DJ who's positioned himself upstairs.

4:41And the other hubbub, generally, is the mall itself, where we've spent probably a bit too much time this week.

4:46Alex Lowe: We've got to look at this mall every day since I've been here. It's a maze, isn't it? It's like a labyrinth of mini escalators and lifts, and there's about 12 different ways of getting anywhere. But we're having a nice time, aren't we? Yeah, it was good. Interesting news about the team, well, the two teams. We talked about the box team. The England team is out. we got sort of wind yesterday didn't we about what it was going to be and how daring or otherwise both it was going to be how physical or otherwise the team was going to be set up so it's kind of been an interesting couple of days well shall i read through the team then i'm sure you've all read our pieces on the times but here it is for those of you haven't seen it so genge george hayes front row alex coles george martin second row ollie chesham at six tom curry seven ben l eight which means that pepper and pollock will get to him are on the bench as the sort of back row guys with charlie yules the line-out dude and cow and dicky urbano and a poker for jaw that's the sort of the six of the six two on the bench and then in the back line starting back line jvp at nine finn smith atkinson and freeman the centers faye were both so on the right wing caden murley left wing and george furbank at full back and so then the two backs left on the bench Alex Mitchell and Marcus Smith so when that dropped Charlie or we got wind that that was going to be the 23 what were your initial thoughts?

6:05Charlie Morgan: I guess I guess a lot of continuity with what they had at the back end of the Six Nations um four out of seven of the same starting backs I think with JV with Jack Van Portfliet coming off the bench and um swapping with Ben Spencer they're maintaining that balance of the back five um with Chessam at six and I think the interesting for me I guess because we get wind of these things a little bit before they break you're already sort of thinking about what you don't know and what's going to be a surprise when it drops and for me that was the bench a bit and the accent there on set piece with Beno Urbano and Charlie Ears I think that 19 shirt is actually really interesting because they already have three specialist locks I wouldn't even...

6:48Charlie Morgan: Oli Chasin was fantastic at six against France but he is invariably at lock now for Leicester It's not like he's an either-or. Like, for example, Courtney Laws, who then became pretty much an out-and-out six. And interestingly, sorry to pause on that, I don't know the stats on this, but probably more of Alex Coles' career has been played at six, whereas with England they kind of swapped them around. And then you wonder whether you could have Chesham and Martin together as people who are more familiar with each other from Leicester Tigers. So Yules at 19 there gives England four specialist locks in the 23, whereas the box have two plus peter stuffed toy that to me is a really interesting area and you wouldn't necessarily have thought six months ago that england could go into this game looking to squeeze south africa in that position but that does kind of level things up a little bit especially when you think and we can get onto this a little bit later how the start the finishing lineup sorry are going to end up because not a lot of those box back rowers go 80 and clearly South Africa have traditionally have this amazing scope to put the squeeze on with their bench but it's going to be it's going to be very interesting very interesting dynamic in that last half hour on Saturday.

8:06Alex Lowe: What stood out for me from the starting 15 was how much better it looks than the Six Nations. George Furbank coming in at 15, Faber-Boso fit again obviously is massive. both those guys are so important to this England team and the way that the team and Lee Blackett as the attack coach want to play. Furbank is the second receiver playmaker we've seen how special he is for Northampton State what he could help Finn Smith to create with Northampton. Fayouard Boso is just you know he should have had double the number of caps he's had but injuries keep intervening, did his hamstrings before the Wales game and missed the whole Six Nations.

8:47Alex Lowe: The low-slung pace and power that he brings England, that threat. England don't have anyone who can replicate that. South Africa find it much easier to replace a Chesling Colby than England are able to do with a Favre Bosso. They tried Arundel and they've looked at Radwan. Roebuck. Roebuck. A different type of winger. Yeah, has been ditched now after 10, 12 caps. So I think when you look at that back line, and I should mention JVP as well, so Ben Spencer's on the tour, he needs a shoulder operation. He wasn't going to come unless Archie McParlane's to his knee. He's now obviously come as emergency cover, with JVP starting, Mitchell on the bench, Mitchell on the bench, I think only because he's only had, well, he had longer in the Prem final than he wanted, but he's had 17 minutes in six weeks, whatever it is.

9:41Alex Lowe: But I think the shift from Spencer, who I think he was frustrated to be asked to play this way, but just approached the middle chunk of the Six Nations as a box-kicking nine. He wasn't given any license to even look at what might be on.

9:58Charlie Morgan: Don't you think his performance in Paris was almost at the time for their whole collective display?

10:07Alex Lowe: No, it definitely did. But I think if you want to play that way, you're better picking Jack Van Portfleet with Alex Mitchell coming off the bench. You know, a Lions nine. So I look at the way that England want to play. This goes back to the way they talk about, they talk so much about how they wanted to play in the Six Nations. And a lot of it was obviously PR because they didn't actually even set themselves up to play that way against Scotland and Ireland and Italy. And Jamie George has said as much since. We didn't even talk about phase play. We had no attacking strategy other than hoisting contestables and hope that they'd bounced England's way.

10:51Alex Lowe: They didn't. They had nowhere else to go until France when the shackles were off, the pressure was off, and Lee Blackett was given more time with the team. And suddenly, as you say, Charlie Spencer is attacking the fringes instead of just pulling in a train and box kicking it. So I think if you look at the way that England want to play, the identity they want to have as a team, they weren't even set up for it in the Six Nations. Now they've got JVP, Finn Smith, Faye Woboso, George Furbank. I think it's a team that can do something different if they can get a decent ball and any momentum up front, which is going to be a big challenge.

11:32Just to dwell on that point you made about all the different people that have played right wing, and this is not exclusive to right wing, there's quite a few positions in the England team that change regularly, and we'll probably get another midfield next weekend with Bernard Janssen van Rendsburg coming in. But this is just a list of players that have worn the 14 jersey, so just started right wing under Steve Borthwick, and I'll do the number of starts afterwards. So Max Malin, 6. Anthony Watson, 2. Henry Arundel, 2. Johnny May, 4. Joe Marchant, 1. Freddie Stewart, 1. Tommy Freeman, 12. Fabio Bosa, 8.

12:07So this will be his 9th. Tom Roebuck, 7.

12:09Alex Lowe: So Marchant's played right wing once for England under Borthwick. That's really interesting because, and that would have been at the 23 World Cup. Samoa, yeah. Samoa, because I just have this feeling that he'll come back to sell sharks and he just fits the bill for the type of player that England are looking for. Pace, brilliant in the air, really intelligent defender at 13 and wing, great feet in attack, but everyone who has worked with him talks about how his quick feet are so important defensively to get him into position. I can just see him coming back to sale and if he can hit the ground running in the Prem I think he'll be involved in the England set-up pretty quickly because then you've got a wing 13 option in Marchant the same as you've got in Tommy Freeman who's going to play 13 again this week this is an aside but I can really see Marchant coming back in Do you know what I thought when I looked at that team exactly what you thought was that's a lot better than the Six Nations 15 but also you go England never get their best team out on the field, do they?

13:17And some of it's injury. So Underhill's had a sort of shoulder arm operation. I saw him with his kid on Instagram the other day in a sling. Maratoji's obviously rested. We've done plenty on that. But the box team looks like they're pretty much, not completely, but pretty much their best team. And actually, it's interesting too that 11 of the team that the box have picked played the 2024 game between the sides and only six of the England 15 are the same from that game, that 29-20 defeat at Twickenham. So it's so frustrating for fans and Borthwick, I'm sure, any England head coach, that you go, the gun 23 only ever appears at the World Cup, really, doesn't it?

14:02Alex Lowe: I think this is definitely the strongest team the box could have picked. it sounds like they could have pressed Wilco Lowe into being on the bench he'd had a tricky few months he lost one of his parents he wasn't very well in the UFC final, they haven't forced him plus they really like Zach Porthen who's using this as a chance for him to be on the bench so they could have had the huge bulk of Wilco Lowe coming off the bench they're obviously missing Sasha Feinberg and Gomzulu Yeah, that's a huge one, yeah. And I'm a huge fan of RG Schneiman. I think he changes every team. He'd start in every team in the world, but he's a bench player for the box.

14:47Alex Lowe: They're coming into this game without a front-line back-up lock because Peter Steff will move if he needs to. And there's a couple in that area, so they're missing RG Schneiman, they're missing Lude. Mostert. They're missing Mostert. But I think right now, even Etzabeth and Ruan Nortia are... they're the prime two anyway so what they're missing is maybe a frontline lock to go on the bench and RG Snyman who would be on the bench if he could be and they're missing their 10 but they are they're not they're pretty stacked I'd say and what England are missing which will bring us on to what they've actually got are props props yeah so Finn Baxter's not here hasn't been around for the Six Nations either Will Stewart still out those two with the one-two punch whichever way round with Genj and Hayes were important to that 11 match run weren't they massive changed the whole dynamic of the England 23 and they're not here and so what they have got here is Beno Urbano who's an experienced Premier player but has only got four caps and I know in the past there's been he's not made a lot of squads and a lot of that is often because of his long game fitness and the way that England want to run and he's not really that sort of prop and then on the other side they've got Ashura Pokéfor-Jaw who's been sort of the coming man of the last few years but not quite got to that next point where you go okay he's made it and he's got six caps and Charlie one for you here but we don't know we can't predict how the game's going to go but it seems impossible that this game doesn't pivot on when the bench props come on and what they do right?

16:22Charlie Morgan: I'd say so yeah well I certainly think that is a way that the game could pan out and you would think that if it is even 50, 60 or even within a score or 10 points, England will be desperate not to be in a position where they are bleeding scrum penalties because clearly the two, the World Cup final in 2019 and the World Cup semi-final in 2023, when the scrum flipped in the latter second one of those games, that was the winning of the game for South Africa. England having done so well with Marla and Cole and let's not forget George Martin at lock and Jamie George has just been speaking about how A, people talk about scummaging as just the front row but actually it's the type 5, it's the whole pack and B, George Martin is one of those guys that front rowers really feel the benefits of behind them I was just crunching the numbers on this subject and the autumn, you're right, was when England had Hayes and Finn Baxter had come off the the England tour and really enhanced their reputations as starters on against Argentina particularly and they joined up with two guys in Ellis Genge and Will Stewart who'd been on the Lions and done really well on that tour and what you got was the ability for Borthwick to flip his starting lineups and I think particularly for Genge that was really useful as a way of someone breathing down his neck of someone breathing down his neck so to give him that spur but also to manage his workload also because he's just an he's still an exceptional impact man he He was flipped, Andy Farrell flipped the order he was used with Andrew Porter in the test series.

17:58Charlie Morgan: But so over the autumn, Hayes averaged, played three tests, averaged 53 minutes. He started each game he did play. Ellis Genge averaged 39 minutes, having gone to the bench in two games. Now, fast forward to the Six Nations, when Finn Baxter and Will Stewart have serious injuries, it kept them out for a long time. And Steve Borthwick is having to rely on props a little bit further down the pecking order, albeit props he still rates in Bevanrod and Trevor Davidson. Hayes averaged 66 minutes during the Six Nations, playing 72 minutes in two games, which is a long time. And then Genge averaged 56 minutes, but in the last game against France he was replaced on 75, which is longer either of those props went.

18:43Charlie Morgan: That's a long time. I just think that Beno Urbano has to be prepared to be proactive with Beno Urbano. I don't think that he can... I think it's dangerous to risk going 65-70, notwithstanding the quality of those two players, because I just think that can... I actually think that in picking Beno Urbano, he's picked somebody that he's probably more comfortable with being in the side because of that set-piece solidity and that experience he mentioned. He highlighted Asha Opoko Fajor's mobility as well, which was interesting. But I know... He can play the way we want. he can run kind of thing. But Alex, you've made the point that he started Asher Pokéfejura at Loosehead for this uncapped game, which totally threw me.

19:29Charlie Morgan: I thought, well England always talk about him as Loosehead, that's where he'll be and that's throwing me a little bit because he's back in at tight end for this one.

19:37Alex Lowe: It just feels like a wasted opportunity. If you're playing this game as a tune-up for the tour to play Asher at Loosehead instead of playing him in combination with Benno because he would have known coming here that those two were his likely ahead of Kloska and Seller so it feels like a missed opportunity I think to add to Charlie's point in a in a perfect world Elitigand would also have been rested by England this summer yeah massively he's had what calf how many sort of issues yeah and so you're asking a guy who you would like to be not here at all to potentially play well beyond an hour at altitude against the the most dominant pack in the world who finished they haven't played for seven months the last game they played was against wales in a game outside of the international window 70 something nil yeah so wales were at full strength south africa didn't have any of their japan-based players so the last time south africa played a test at full strength was against ireland in dublin where they ground ireland island scrum into the dirt it was like psychological they went out to humiliate Ireland.

20:47Alex Lowe: They were turning down penalty shots at goal in order to pick another scrum to win another penalty to scrum a prop into the bin and that happened twice in the game. Weren't they booting the ball up in the air for knock-ons?

20:59Charlie Morgan: Yeah. At one point.

21:00Alex Lowe: Absolutely, they were. And it was... They won the game on the scoreboard fairly narrowly. Yeah. But for anyone who watched that game it was an annihilation. An annihilation, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would be worried for England. Now, the box set-up isn't quite as... powerful this time they don't have Vilco Lowe for example they don't have I still think Peter Steff will if he has to move to second row he's he's a hell of a of a power physical scrummager but they're not quite set up in the same way as they were in Dublin but as we talked about earlier it's mentality the box scrummaging mentality my fear for England would be that if they choose to go that way, they choose to deploy the Moore laws in their favour, they choose to focus in on the set piece, knowing that England are going there to try and move them around and run.

21:53Alex Lowe: Can England withstand the psychological pressure that will come on them? My worry for England in that particular area is if the box choose to go again, as they did in Dublin, it could be a really long day for this England pack. So I'd like to linger on two other players. We've done a bit of George Martin. Cool to see him back. First game or test, because he played in the France 15 game since 2025, Six Nations. So he'll help them bang. But one guy who helped them play, which they keep talking about, George Furbank. It was sort of, it sort of felt obvious that he was going to play fullback. But then we heard the other day Freddie Stewart's hurt his ankle.

22:34Kevin Sinfield. Sorry, Sir Kevin Sinfield. the newly knighted Kevin Sinful told us that the other day so Furbank's in Charlie first test since November 2024 and he's a funny one isn't he he's like Fabio Bosa in a different way he's he's only got 14 caps George Furbank in over 6 years Fabio Bosa has got 13 in the shortest space of time he made his debut

22:56Alex Lowe: in 2026 nation but that's that point of like they can't get their best guys in the field but he'll unlock loads

23:02Charlie Morgan: right well it's interesting because he is explicitly somebody that is very highly valued because he's one of the holders of these enhanced EPS deals which he joined that group I think ahead of this season with Elliot Daly so they clearly went right this is Freddie Stewart doesn't hold one of them which is interesting in itself but it shows that the value they want to have on that second playmaker at 15 sorry that is probably more important when you have a sense of partnership that features Tommy Freeman at 13 ahead of someone like Henry Slade I think for a lot of reasons Steve Borthwick spoke today about the space he sees not just in the front line but in further back that's going to be really important because the South Africa defensive system have the fullback the fullback is almost a leader of that defensive system in how they whip around their wings to get really flat and pressurised he spoke really well I thought about the need to carry on playing and not be spooked by aggressive defences because his point was we're going to be in positions where somebody gets absolutely smoked, man and ball.

24:05Charlie Morgan: And he didn't actually play, I'm fairly sure. I think it was James Ram at fullback. But when they beat the Leinster team coached by Jack Nienabar last season, we're still in this season, aren't we? Saints were really good at that, at being patient. If they got tackled behind them, but again, if Finn Smith was ready to take his medicine and run into a pretty violent area of the pitch, you had Alex Mitchell zigzagging, and eventually they were beating Leinster with their speed to reset and that's a really big part of unpicking Blitz defences and they're going to come up against something like that.

24:38Charlie Morgan: I just think that relationship, that 10-15 axis with Freeman involved with those two, you potentially see a little bit more out of Freeman too than we saw in the Six Nations, although I thought he grew into that. He's a very important player on a few levels. You've just reminded me of, we'll try and bring some people, we haven't had a lot of colour let's say in this week but we can bring them some things they might not have seen because we might not have written about every cough and spit of what people said to us but earlier in the week Seb Atkinson chatted to us didn't he Charlie and he talked, well you asked him about that sort of getting hit and passing in the teeth of the defence didn't he and that's going to be key as well that sort of what you've written about before that next hole attack they're not going to be able to go through the box but can they draw someone out and put an Earl or a Pollock later in the game through one of those nice soft shoulders?

25:29Charlie Morgan: I would say one of Seb Atkinson's key strengths is doing what modern 12s are sort of asked to do now, and he's an X-10, which suits it. But to be that first receiver where he's taking the ball super flat, either playing a tip-on to a hard runner or playing pullbacks after he's fixed not just the defender just in front of him, but the defender that's outside, the guy outside him, and giving space and therefore giving more space to the playmakers outside, he spoke really well about, because I was thinking, how much have you got to have about you to take the ball really flat when your opposite man's Damien Delendy, who is one of the toughest blokes playing test rugby.

26:08And probably got Peter Stefft-Toy next to him as well, who's like the best tackler of all time. See, you see, you know,

26:12Charlie Morgan: these guys, these bodies flying at him. And he said, well, actually, I know I'm doing my job if I get whacked after I get the ball away, because there's at least one defender. Yeah, get whacked and pass the ball. Yeah, that's at least one defender that I fixed and I was actually looking at him going and he's one of the players we're not shocked by the size of players anymore I would say we're far more often shocked by how they're a bit more slight than you might think and Seb Atkinson can shift like he's he's a big fella really fit do you know what it also reminded me of though the sort of the double punch here because obviously South Africa are massively engaged rugby media here and so they're at our press conference and then they go to the South African ones and it's been one of those things that Seb Atkinson's had to talk about quite a lot because he's broken Bronco records, you know, that shuttle running thing, up and down pitches.

27:00And someone asked him about that. Oh, you're known as one of the fittest players, whatever. And so he spoke about that, da-da-da-da. And then Jesse Creel's up the next day and obviously one of the Bok journalists goes like, apparently Seb Atkinson's one of the fittest players in rugby. What do you make of that, Jesse? And he just went, Broncos don't win test matches, mate.

27:20Alex Lowe: Brilliant. I think I like that back and forth it was fun your description there of what Atkinson is looking to do fascinates me because that's England looking to move the ball it's a window into the shift that happened right at the very end of the Six Nations under no pressure there was just a different vibe around England this week about how they're talking about how they want to play now they're coming up against a ferociously physical team the best team in the world number one in the world for years and years eight years in a row whatever is like back to back world cup winners the book's going to be in England's face they're going to need to be brave they're going to need to be to back themselves and things are going to go wrong but I just it's just an inkling but I just like the idea of how they're talking because that feels to me like there has been a strategic shift there's a recognition and I don't think it'll win them the game on Saturday if it does it'd be a mega shock I don't think it'll win them the game on Saturday but it's very evidently has to be the way that this England team play because it plays to the strengths of all their players and how many times have we heard Steve Borthwick say I just want the players to come on the field and bring what they do for their clubs and then he sets them up to box kick and not do any of it just that description of Atkinson as the sort of matador of what we hear Finn Smith bringing the attitude of a Pollock the the threat of a fur bank, the danger of a Fai Waboso.

28:48And having the big beef up front to actually set them up to do that. Maybe. Maybe. Or at least putting three locks in the pack.

28:55Alex Lowe: I'm not sure it's going to win them the game on Saturday. But I think it will win them more games as they build it down the line. I think it's really important and really interesting that there has been this post-Six Nation shift. So that leads us perfectly, it's like you've read my notes, Alex, it's amazing, to an email that we've got, theruckatthetimes.co.uk from Sam and he said I'd love to hear your thoughts on Steve's messaging during the Six Nations why did he claim he wanted the players to express themselves we know that this wasn't the case citing the Jamie George interview that we've talked about I'm usually not a fan of the media probing too much and being unpleasant to coaches and players but I'd like to see journalists calling him out about this cheers love the pod and he said P.S.

29:36is it unreasonable as a passionate England fan for a small part of me to want to see us get battered at Ellis Park so there's a chance that changes are finally made after the summer.

29:47Charlie Morgan: Do you think he means changes and changing to the regime? I assume he means Steve Borthwick. Steve Borthwick the coach. He may mean style of play too but maybe they go hand in hand. God it's a good question. I don't know if many fans are going to be watching them on Saturday going I hope we get smashed by 50 but it's interesting that there is a sentiment out there with that.

30:08Alex Lowe: There's a connection between that and the messaging. you know we Steve it's not his natural environment he's very he's a control freak as as to be fair most coaches are and we'll get on to Razzie in a minute indeed but he is also not a natural communicator no publicly he's very wary about what he says in my view overly wary so he was asked a question today about the the moral law interpretation change which was driven through by the spring box and he just and he's right up his street by the way and he declined he declined to answer it now he declined on it in a way that gave you his answer which is not a fan of it he's not it doesn't like the change has been made but he chooses not to take a stand and go this is what we stand for this is what we believe he'd rather not have that conflict which I I think he probably should be a bit more forthright in my view the six nations thing my reading of him go what he did in the six nations was he reverted to type he went back to the script that he's had since he was england coach of i want the shirt to to not weigh heavy on my players i want them to have the confidence to express themselves to bring what they bring for their clubs brave bold be brave and be bold and be ambitious all your strengths to the pitch but i think there was a script because he could see there were problems and so he just rolled out his scripted answers.

31:40Alex Lowe: But it became so jarring because he needs people to buy into him and his team. And by rolling out those scripted answers which bore no resemblance to the game that the fans and we saw, you start going, well, what am I buying into here? Why do I believe what he says? He's just trying to convince me that what I'm watching isn't what I'm watching. and that's a problem because then it leads to what Sam's saying maybe it's better if England lose so we can get a new coach and then you get on to a wider conversation which isn't for now about who that new coach would be it'd be Jörn van Graan or Phil Dalsen but that's for another day but I actually think the two things that connected the messaging in the Six Nations it was about backing their game plan it was trying to convince people they were going to do something other than what they were actually going to go and do which for me betrayed a lack of belief and confidence in what they were trying to do.

32:35Charlie Morgan: Can I add a few things to maybe throw into that style-wise? I think England were ahead of the curve, if not on the curve, as far as how coordinated their contestable kicking game was. And I think maybe they got a bit infatuated by that, added to the amount of depth that they have at seven, which meant that through the Argentina tour, having played a bit of rugby, let's not forget, under Steve Bordwick since the World Cup so games like the Leon game that was some of that was outstanding move the ball really

33:05Alex Lowe: really nice games like the tests we went to in New Zealand where they couldn't nail it at the end but they were they were backing themselves to play a certain way they really were I think and

33:15Charlie Morgan: then I think they got infatuated by the um you know the escorting crackdown and the fact that it suited them to load sevens into their into their team that wasn't necessarily conducive to keeping the ball very well. And I think that was suited to a low possession game in the Six Nations. And the overriding thing about the whole Six Nations was that whatever they did, they did really badly. They just dropped the ball. They didn't finish their chances. They were leggy. Got yellow card. They were all disciplined. Really all disciplined. Crippled by yellow cards. Record levels of yellows. After the first, something like they scored, this is rough in my head, but they scored from something like seven, scores tries from something like seven out of their first seven or even eight visits to the opposition 22 in the first game against wales and then were so muddled and so passive in in the opposition 22 that they were in the in the sort of spiral that eddie jones sides had found themselves in so all of that is factoring into it and i think it took um it took that that gap between the italy in France games because you could absolutely see it it was when Elliot Daly moved the ball from right to left Elliot Daly saw what he thought was space in behind France but kept the ball for one more phase they go right they go back to left and there's more space for the kick and they exert pressure and they only score a try and then that sets the tone for that game in Paris where there's just a little bit more verve about what they're doing a little bit more purpose about even when they're kicking and even they're open minded enough in this game are clipped up for a piece tomorrow Finn Smith in the backfield gets a pass from Marcus Smith sees Tommy Freeman's migrated to a touchline and he cross kicks across his own 22 to find space there's a little bit more freedom and you could say that that is due to the fact that they're out of the Six Nations they're already going to have a disastrous Six Nations because they've lost to Italy for the first time and they're playing against France so they don't have anything to lose but really I think that there shouldn't be an excuse I don't think to have that purpose about the Middle East all the time because they have players who are who play that way for their clubs and clearly Test Rugby is different but you can still have that that purpose that was missing I think in the first part

35:38Alex Lowe: I think purpose is a really good way of putting it because I think as things began to go wrong and they compounded through the Six Nations my sense on Steve Borthwick is he's a man who takes on more and more for himself to the point where they'd lost to Italy away and then there were clearly conversations and then more time is made in the week for Lee Blackett and lo and behold there is a shift and I with the time since the Six Nations and the way that everyone's talking now I wonder if he has recognised through that review process that if he's going to get the best out of these players then he needs to allow them to play and I don't mean recklessly I don't mean basball it I mean allow them to play not have a situation where he's telling them what to do and I just what I would like to see and I think what as I said earlier what will get the best out of this team is allow the players to play what they see and trust them not impose upon them the game plan we always try and read between the lines of what people say to us and I still think it's fascinating Jamie George is one of the best salesmen for this team I've seen him I've seen him twice now last Friday and today Thursday but one of the phrases that he uses which you go sounds weird is yeah Steve gave us the game plan on Sunday and you go Steve gave you the game plan as in it's like a printed off thing where you go study that lads and do it it's like surely it's like your game plan isn't it it's like you and Finn Smith and JVP's game plan isn't it anyway we'll see how they play so I'd love to do

37:16Charlie Morgan: really quickly to add on that on that theme I think I'm now going to butcher this because I've made time for it but the sam vesti ted lasso sam vesti had a saying that sort of um sounds like it it arched over saints the season which was it's better to be decisive than correct so if enough of you commit to a decision and you do it together and james ran um explain this his second mention on the pod well done him um but he was saying he explained it as though if three players flood around the short side together there's there's a decisive nature to that and then therefore that can be better than what should be the percentage correct decision to make there would have been in

37:57Alex Lowe: an ideal world uh scrum heart archie mcparlon would have been here had he not suffered it like gashed his knee horrible to his knee in the prem final and that that um methodology from sam that mindset of just be decisive and if you make a mistake, that's fine, but be decisive. Not only saves Mokparlan's season, but would have got him on this tour. Because in that big game against Bath in the Champions Cup, he taps and goes, and he goes left instead of right. He runs a bit away from his support, gets turned over. It's a huge moment in the game. and at Northampton they have absolutely they're like they watch the back next time maybe just veer towards your player rather than think they go the wrong way but the decision to go was backed 100 % even though it led to a huge turnover and they ultimately lost the game because it was because there was support there everyone read it that's your point everyone was decisive together they all read it he just went the wrong way totally agree and a really quick point the guy

39:02Charlie Morgan: starting for England at the weekend is Jack Van Portverley.

39:04Alex Lowe: When he is a decisive operator around the fringes,

39:08Charlie Morgan: when he brings his running game in, he's fantastic. He's a handful for sides. That's what he'll be asked to be. I hope that's what he will be asked to be on Saturday. So you've also now reminded me, so I did a big piece about Razzi Erasmus this week, and one of the guys I spoke to for it was Mike Sherry, who's maybe not a huge household name, but was part of the Munster team that Razzi and Jack Niena were coached for that season in 2016-17. and actually was injured for most of the season but got a really good hold on those guys and as with everything with Razzi there's a bit of a dichotomy it's like he's a bastard but we love them kind of thing and one of the things that echoes with Vesti there that you guys have just been talking about is one of Razzi's massive things words is alignment and he often said Mike Sherry said he often says the wrong plan can become the right plan if we're aligned and that's exactly that isn't it that's that Archie McParlane thing you're talking about just on alignment

40:04Alex Lowe: caps so England now do them when the box have alignment caps the squad of players who attend it is about 45 and they always include junior spring box and the odd school boy player who they've identified as a future box so that there's like a succession plan being built and they're all aligned they all understand what's happening and one of the reasons for it is that The players then go off to their franchises where they might be asked to defend in a certain way or approach a ruck in a certain way. But the point that the box coaches want is to go, this is how we do it. So you go and do what you're asked to do at the Bulls or the Sharks, but you need to understand that when you come in, I need you to be on this page really quickly.

40:48Alex Lowe: They don't do any training in those camps. When England come in for alignment camps, the only things we ever see are the players being beasted in the gym. and then Alex Mitchell goes back with a hamstring injury which ultimately means he's not starting this weekend. There is a different mentality and I think alignment is clearly... Steve rolled out the predictable line again that they really only came together a week ago after the players came in for the Prem Final. Well, the way to shortcut that or deal with that is to make sure that when they come in they've got such a clear understanding of where they want to be that you're not starting each campaign from scratch, which England, over a long period of time, it's always felt that they'd start a new campaign and it's, you know, maybe in this case it's probably helpful, but any progress made in the last campaign seems to have been ended and they have to start again.

41:41Alex Lowe: And I just wonder whether there's more that could be done from these alignment camps. You heard Rob Baxter saying England don't need all this access and DORs are frustrated that they get the access and then players come back injured. whether there's a way of embedding a philosophy and an identity that doesn't necessarily need them to also be thrashed in the gym. You've just reminded me of one more thing, which is on an alignment thing, so I went to Exeter University and we had all the same play calls as the Chiefs. This is in 2010-11, but even down in the 5th... Charlie wrote about Jérôme Van Gron being involved with Bath Uni.

42:20Pod system and all that. And so that if anyone did go up, which quite a lot of people did, Henry Slade was at uni for about five minutes before they went, oh, hang on, he should probably be a professional rugby player. They knew what they were doing. Anyway, so I'm sure you're absolutely desperate to listen to some adverts. So we better do a little break here and then we'll finish off chatting about Henry Pollock. Remarkable that we've done 40 minutes without talking about him yet. And how England could stun the box after this.

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44:11That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Okay, Henry Pollock. We did do a bit about him on Monday's pod, but it's just fascinating, isn't it, guys? How like there's hype around Henry Pollock at home. And as we've said, we haven't got out on about two months, but when you're sort of living around here and online a bit and reading bits and pieces, he's the only story for the Springboks and he's never played against them. He's played in South Africa a few times, as you mentioned, for the 18s, for the 20s, for Saints, but he is a lightning rod for everything out here, right?

44:57Alex Lowe: He's played two senior games in South Africa, against South African opposition, both against the Bulls. And had a set two with Hanukkah, which we mentioned the other day. Was really, really good at Loftus, but there was an odd comment from one of the South African journalists today about why are you all so obsessed with Henry Pollock? Have a look at yourself. Particularly the idea that the box are going to target him. Oh, my God. Mate, everybody we talk to who is connected to the team or understands the team or particularly understands the Africana psyche, they're all talking about him. Dwayne Vermeulen's been on two different appearances talking about wanting to retire so he can come and screw him over.

45:35Alex Lowe: He's on the box coaching team. sorry as a tiny side note I think I'm right in saying that his title is head of combi unit or something like that which is a phrase I've never heard before I think it means sort of like back five of the scrum anyway continue so this is a curious situation where Henry Pollock hasn't really got very limited experience of playing against African opposition and yet as he was told by actually a Congo a DR Congo fan in his in the England team hotel this week came up to him after the football on Wednesday and said you are public enemy number one in this country mate how does that happen?

46:14Alex Lowe: interestingly and we've all spoken to people and I've written a piece on that whole weirdness today for tomorrow's paper but there's a clash between particularly the Africana psyche and what they deem to be a rugby player it's all about being a humble human and being like huge and physical but they drill the sort of the humility element to it and of course Pollock is an anathema to that because he's he's brash and he's very blonde and he's a showman and he loves the spotlight and as we've said repeatedly on this pod that doesn't mean he's not a really effective team player and we saw that in the in the knockout stages of the Prem in particular incredibly you know team first performances no showreel highlights but like Loads of grunt and carries and two, I thought, fantastic performances in the semis and the final.

47:09Alex Lowe: So he's a really good rugby player and the box knows he's a really good rugby player and they respect a lot of what he does as a player. Well, I know, for example, Felix Jones has studied his quite different running lines. Not a lot of people cut the way that he does, sort of against the grain perhaps. And I know that Felix Jones has looked heavily into that, so they respect him. it doesn't mean they're not going to try and fill him in absolutely and so you've got this strange use of a dichotomy earlier like the public here are desperate for him to come on on Saturday and for Peter Steff to fill him in and to rattle him.

47:49Memeable content forever online.

47:51Alex Lowe: But Pollock is this character who he kind of knows what's coming and he does love it like I find it really hard to understand how anyone could just brush off all those things that's going to be great even his teammates struggle to George Furbank was saying today I guess I'd probably hate him if he wasn't a teammate but he genuinely just loves it yeah and most normal people would be just a little bit sheepish or a little bit worried trepidatious or sort of like ooh if all these people are going you're probably killing me number one they're going to come and smash you on Saturday and he's just like bring it on mate great sounds fun my blonde hair my pink boots bring it on you've got to respect that that sort of mindset that's so rare a good quote we heard this week wasn't there Alex of someone telling us there's nothing an Afrikaner likes less than a pleased with himself pom which about sums it up doesn't it yeah it's a real culture clash but by the way he stands alone in British rugby culture as well at the moment oh yeah yeah but the kind of strange and the French sort of antipathy towards him It sort of stems from that Champions Cup final in Bordeaux, and it's sort of pantomime-esque, I think.

49:02Alex Lowe: Whereas out here, there's almost no need for it. No, it's weird. And the funny thing for me is when we were at the 23 World Cup and the Springboard fans co-opted the zombie from the island of, he's in your head, Razzy's in your head. And you come here and you're like, well, Pollock's in your head. Like, they can't stop talking about him. No, they can't, yeah. Well, hopefully, people now have seen that he's in the 23 and they might buy a ticket to the game. Because the South African Rugby Union have had to slash the price of the tickets by, for us, 10 quid but 300 rand out here, which is actually quite a fair amount of money, just to get some fans in.

49:40And so let's hope that when Pollock comes on, it is actually a vibrant, sort of intense atmosphere that we expect. Because it's not obvious that they're going to sell every ticket. So we're going to finish off with some hot takes, right? so mine and this is not really a hot take but this is just sort of how i'm thinking about it and you guys can respond or we can charlie you're going to do this last and you're going to give us the positivity of like the three-point plan for how england are going to win so my like i think my most likely result here is box win by about 10 and i'm giving that a sort of like 55 chance of that happening right a sort of 40 chance therefore of england getting battered or like not necessarily battered but like 20 or more points to the box and then the five percent chance that england pull it off is that does that sound about fair is that a bit too pessimistic and win sorry put it off and win yeah yeah sorry the five percent england win 40 chance they get put away and 55 most likely that it's kind of within 10 ish you know i i think

50:44Alex Lowe: that's probably fair because while i as i said earlier i excited for this mentality that england are trying to foster, I don't see it big enough to win on Saturday because fundamentally Test Rugby is still one in certain areas and I just don't see how England, despite a beefed-up pack, despite George Martin being available now and Chessham at six, the line-out, the mall, the scrum, the collisions, can they get enough of a foothold in those areas to allow the rest to unfold? I think 5 % England win chance is probably right because everything would have to go their way. If I was England now, I'd have started about today, it was Thursday night here in Johannesburg, starting to wind up Ellis Genge to the point where he can get to where he was in Brisbane on the 22 tour, where he was in Paris, to be fair, in the Six Nations.

51:41Alex Lowe: He doesn't always hit that level of just bitter ferocity. like I hate the world the kind of I hate the world Ellis Genge is what England need for at least an hour on Saturday and then give them a week off next week and say look we might need you in Argentina but just absolutely end yourself here and that's one player, they need that across the board plus they'll need some fortune I think probably cards etc because the way they want to play I just don't see how they can generate enough, they're going backwards however much you might want to tip to attack the next hole, the next hole. If you're in backwards, you're going to kick.

52:21Alex Lowe: So I think your balance is about right because I'm just not sure in those fundamental areas whether they can get enough of a foothold. So we're ending with Charlie, as we said. Charlie, give England fans who might be here or might be watching it on ITV4, accidentally scrolling past tipping point on ITV1, how are England going to win this game, Charlie? What's your three-point plan for an England victory?

52:46Charlie Morgan: Can I give you a caveat to start? A caveat by saying this isn't foolproof and that England could do these things and still end up on the wrong side of the result because South Africa are fantastic. England have obviously lost their last four test matches and South Africa have lost four of their last 31 test matches. But I think to get close, to give themselves a chance, they've got to bar up in every area of defence. That includes a line-out with a bit of disruption there. That includes having some big moments in their own 22. That's going to be absolutely crucial when Australia beat them in Johannesburg.

53:15Charlie Morgan: Tom Hooper came up with a big steal. Ardy Sevilla came up with a big steal at Eden Park. I think they've got to bring something a little bit unexpected, potentially, in attack. Ireland had those hidden inside balls. Australia at Eden Park went over the top of the line out and scored a set-piece try there. I think they'll have Lee Blackett working with Finn Smith on a sort of menu of strike moves. I think they've got to win the kicking battle with real conviction, whether it's contestable or going long but then also as I mentioned earlier in the pod they've got to have that variation not be afraid to kind of kick pass across even in their own half when there will be space the blitz system is super effective when South Africa do it because they work so hard and they're so bought in but it inherently leaves space because it's so aggressive and so narrow at times I think a big one is ordering their bench so that they have that accent on set piece and they're not bleeding scrum penalties and more penalties at any point during the game and well say any point during the game as little as possible so that means winding up George Martin and letting him go for 50 and then bringing on Charlie Ewells and whether they keep that big six by um by keeping Chesham there or however they do that I think they've got quite a nice balance of their bench with Benovano and Cowndicke being scrummaging, real scrummaging specialists with the mobility of Apoku Fajor, Pepper and Pollock and I think just those, how they order that bench in the forwards, when they make those changes, really really important because just the most straightforward way into this game is the box set piece running wild and then the last thing is just to be bold so when Ireland won in Durban in that second test they had a scrum on their own 22 with 90 seconds left.

55:05Charlie Morgan: Kieran Frawley ran a beautiful wraparound play and put in a grubber behind that aggressive spring box pendulum. That won them the line-out from which they got the drop goal. So I think it's just maintaining that open-mindedness on attack. And as George Furbank said today, they're going to be hit with man and ball. They're going to be hit behind the game line. It's whether they can hold their nerve, keep the ball, reset quickly and find space. And just to reiterate, all of that could happen and South Africa could win by 10, South Africa are great. But if England tick a few of those boxes, I think it's a fixture that's been a flagship fixture for a while.

55:40Charlie Morgan: They will have some bespoke plans for it and they can come out of it with a positive performance regardless of the result. Well, there you go. And you can read that version of that, I guess, let's say, that Charlie's filed. If you listen to this on Friday morning, it'll be on the website, GIFs and all. I'm excited, lads. Ellis Park, the other thing that someone told me about Ellis Park is you will be entering the heart of darkness when you go there. So let's hope it's vibrant and atmospheric.

56:04Alex Lowe: I hope so. It's the most expensive tickets that they've struggled to sell. Yeah. I don't think it's a particularly... Well, we don't need the corporates. We just want the real fans. I don't think people enjoy going to that part of town. So hopefully there's a big late surge and it'll be full and it'll be oppressive in the best possible way as an environment, as an atmosphere, because that's what you want Test Rugby to be. I'm really looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to what I hope to see is England bringing that mindset that we talked about. I don't think it'll get them the win. I'm looking forward to seeing Damian Valemsa, who might be my most favourite player in the world at the moment.

56:44Alex Lowe: I just think he is. You can play him at 10, 13, 15, and he's just class in everything he does. So I'm excited to see him in the flesh again because he's wicked. Awesome. Well, we'll be back with you guys on, depending on editing times, Saturday night slash Sunday morning we'll do a post-match pod as per but for now we're going to go and find something to do in Santa Moore there's a whiskey bar behind you maybe we should try that I don't actually like whiskey there's a football world cup game on I suspect yeah true maybe watch that we'll probably do that like we have every other night this week hey sports coming out of our ears there's loads of rugby nations championship we did a bit of preview of all the other games of the weekend six massive test matches one of them being South Africa England so tune in come back with us onto the ruck on Saturday night, Sunday morning.

57:31But for now, we're going to go and find some food. Hope you enjoyed the pod. This has been The Ruck from The Times and The Sunday Times. The ruckatthetimes.co.uk for any emails. And we will see you all again soon. There are moments that reveal who we are and who we're meant to become. For those born to lead, such moments call for a vehicle of equal distinction. Dynamic by design, uncompromising in execution, the Range Rover Sport was engineered for those rare individuals who demand the world and possess the conviction to claim it. When your time to lead arrives, you need a vehicle that rises to meet it.

58:08The Range Rover Sport. Exclusive offers available now. Explore further at rangerover.com.