How to save the Champions Cup, scrums and the Champ

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1:06welcome back to the ruck the journalist rugby podcast from the times where this week we're going to put the world to rights on a few hot button issues alex loads alongside me to talk about the champions cup and how to fix that scrums and how to fix them the perennial promotion and relegation that engulfs the champion prim conversation how to fix that so alex are you ready? I'm ready. Big topic. Let's go. Yeah, absolutely. We're going to delve into the European Cup stuff first. And then later on the pod, we've got cast tight head Will Collier, formerly of Harlequins in England, joining us after he wrote a lovely column about all about saving our scrums.

1:45But we had to have a third wheel for this, particularly after one of the great European Cup results for Glasgow Warriors against Toulouse. Mark Palmer, fresh from a Scottish victory we usually get you on to say oh no Scotland have lost again but this time you're smiling Mark. Exactly no post-mortem today a much more positive inquest for one so yeah pleasure to be with you as always gents. Yeah great to have you and let's start there because like as usual the Champions Cup has issues which we'll get on to but sometimes you just have to go that was a properly good like that would have been a great night in the Heineken Cup whatever whenever we look back with misty eyes about what it used to be, that was absolutely amazing, wasn't it?

2:2621-0 down and beat Toulouse. Absolutely. And pretty much full noise Toulouse as well, which again we'll get into later, no doubt, about the weekend sides debate. But that was a galaxy of stars beside the leisure centre at Scots 10, somewhat incongruously. And as you say, first half Toulouse ripped it up. they did everything that we'd expected them to do that power and panache sort of mesh and so effectively as always looked out of sight and you know actually right before half time they almost scored a fourth try Capozzo was almost in at the corner, Jimmy Dolby managed to get him in touch, if that had been, if that had gone down, it surely was game over but you know that maybe gave them a little kind of bit of impetus to come out in the second half and say look this might be slightly still alive all week apparently as ever from the guys that have been the Scots and it was blowing and absolutely pouring with rain When is it not?

3:25Exactly, that's a good night and Frankl Smith's plan apparently all week had to be to play into the wind in the first half believing that they had enough on the bench and also that they had superior conditioning to overtolies to come and pull away in the second half which is exactly what they did, it was remarkable stuff and great fun at 10pm on a Saturday night for newspaper deadlines, let me tell you. But that aside, it was an absolute pleasure. I was going to say, how many paragraphs did you have to delete? So 21-0 for anyone who's not had to write a match report. You've probably written, what, 500 or 600 words of it.

4:03And then you have to go, uh-oh, here we go. Get the big axe out. Start again. Indeed. It's the only solution at that point, isn't it? Rip up and start again. But as I say, much more pleasurable than doing so last month against Argentina when it was the complete opposite, roles reversed, 21-0 up after halftime and still managed to lose. I tuned in at halftime, Mark, thinking it's game over. I'll watch Dupol for 20 minutes before he goes off because he's bound to do something. And we just treated, I got probably the best 40 minutes of the Champions Cup so far. Just an absolute treat. but there's so many parallels and interesting connections with that Argentina game that you've mentioned.

4:46Same scoreline, obviously, that Scotland led that day and lost. Interesting to hear you talk about Franco Smith saying that the Glasgow players would have the conditioning to outlast Toulouse. Whereas one of the factors that we felt watching Scotland in those two games in the autumn where the All-Blacks game, the Argentina game, that they fell away at the end and perhaps felt they weren't conditioned well enough to last a full 80. So many players from that Scotland team were in the Glasgow team. So has it made you reappraise what happened to Scotland at all? Or why was it that Glasgow were able to succeed?

5:23Well, I think it's a very pertinent point. I think this Glasgow side has given us ample evidence of the fact that they have no mental fail collectively. You don't go and win a league title by winning at Tormund and Loftus in successive weekends. if you're not up for that particular fight. So we've seen it in it with them. They've won. Their evolution in knockout rugby has been very good under Franco as well. Initially, trying to play this wide, wide game all the time didn't work, but they've got an edge to them now. They've got different strings that they can go to in different situations. and I think just a kind of structure and a resilience that they can fall back on in the tougher moments, which Scotland don't seem to have ever managed to have developed under Gregor Townsend.

6:12It just seems to collapse rather than grow in those moments. There's so many other narratives here, aren't there, Mark? And you've written and talked on the pod about the whole Franco Smith, Gregor Townsend kind of dance that we've had for a while. So I know it's just one result, but obviously it's backed up by winning the URC away in South Africa and everything else. So what has this done for Franco Smith's stock as well? And the whole Scotland conversation with Gregor Townsend, who seems to be on the slide, and Franco Smith, who's on the rise. But contracts are signed up for a while and everything else.

6:43So tell us about that element of it. It's really intriguing because, as you say, there was a lot of momentum around this conversation probably six, seven months ago. Back in the last season, both their contracts initially were to expire summer 26. so there seemed to be an obvious solution to say, right, you know, there's a partner of ways with Gregor, we'll shuffle Franco up one. They didn't do that. They've opted to give Gregor a contract taking him through to the end of the World Cup, but, you know, after what was another failed November campaign, and unfortunately so many of the same frailties and weaknesses that we've seen before, coupled with what we're seeing from Glasgow, I think, you know, Gregor is going to need to show something in this Six Nations, otherwise that conversation could still come back round again because you'd still be only 18 months out from a World Cup so that you could potentially still make a change at that point but certainly no further beyond that.

7:39So Six Nations for me is when it could all move again. Yeah, and how would that... I mean, because the other side of it is that it seems pretty obvious that as and when he does leave Scotland, Gregor Towns is just going to become the head coach at Newcastle Red Bulls, isn't he? So that's another plate that is juggled in this whole slightly messy situation. It is. And, you know, there's also the case that, you know, Franco, as he has continually been at pains to tell us, has had many other conversations around, you know, jobs outside of Scotland as well. And, you know, he's not Scottish. He's not wedded to Scotland in that sense.

8:18So, you know, there is also the chance that somebody will nip in and make that decision for them, where they are so you're concerned. But, you know, I think they would really end up kicking themselves if they allow a coach of real substance and calibre to slip through their fingers just in action, really. Do you now see, because Glasgow have had a very good squad for quite a while and spend plenty of cash on it, don't they, about nine million quid or something like that would be on their squad. So in some ways you go, this is actually overdue, maybe. I know it beating to lose, but taking a massive scalp in Europe and then kicking on to go through to quarters and things like that so they're top of their pool at the moment and we're always slightly confused about what that means but with saracens not winning in durban and now to lose obviously one from two sale one from two sharks one from two so they're they're in a decent spot now aren't they to to have a proper you know and you know they would be extremely disappointed if this position they've built doesn't then turn into you know a home last the round of 16, which they managed last year.

9:23And a big win over Tigers in the round of 16 last year and then fell in the quarterfinals again to the perennial nemesis of Leinster in grand style as well that night. But their next game, round three, is in Clermont, who have lost their first two. So it doesn't take a great loop. Well, that's it. It takes no leap of imagination. I think Yilchuk in the towel, Saracen's at home in round four. they are really well placed to get that home tie and hopefully a strong seeding within that. As you know, Tuchelotti actually made the point post-match on Saturday that they might not have seen the last of Toulouse this season.

9:59That could come round again. But you're right. I think last year was the first time they'd won a Champions Cup knockout tie that round the 16. They've reached the quarterfinals before and always lost to Saracens, really. but so which you know of course they were by no means alone in doing so at that point but yeah I think it is time that that's the next frontier you know you've won a league title they've started to make dents in Europe but can they go deep into this competition and you know as you say that that squad bears comparison with just about anyone in Europe so you know and hopefully after the new year Hugh Jones is back in the mix as well so it's yeah things are pointing in a nice direction.

10:39Yeah, I mean, that was one of the marquee results, wasn't it, Alex? But what else drew your eye over the weekend? I mean, to me, there were sort of basically about three good games. I was at one of them. The Friday night, Leicester-Leinster was good fun and we can talk about that. Glasgow 2 is obviously great. Toulon-Barth sort of threatened to be a really amazing match and then kind of drifted at the end, didn't it? Claremont saves a great result, but as we've said, Claremont kind of seemed less bothered. You were at a very one-sided, Quinns-Beyond, and I was at a very one-sided Bristol Poe on Sunday.

11:10It felt... So the Toulon-Barth game felt like a proper Champions Cup game. I mean, Toulon ended up pulling away just at the end, but it was tight heading into the last quarter and Bath gave you a go and would have left disappointed. And that's, you know, I guess the fact that they went hammer and tong for so long shows it was a proper Champions Cup game. And as you say, the Glasgow game, obviously the Leicester-Leinster game, I feel like they were playing in a different competition to the game that I was at on Sunday at Harlequins, where they played against a Bayon team missing so many players.

11:51They listed a lot of them as injured, but talking to the French journalists who travelled, Manu Tulangi didn't play. But if this had been a top 14 game, he would have played. They were in that sort of coming back from injury situation. plus they rotated so they had they had a flanker playing on the wing and sensibly the first kick of the game uh will porter hoisted a box kick on him and he dropped it because he he's in such an alien position they had a full bat playing fly half and they had a scrum half making his second senior appearance just as an example of it was a makeshift team so you knew heading to the stoop what what the result was going to be there was no you know there've been there've been a few good away wins in this uh in in the competition this year um you know fair play but not enough of them and this was never going to be one of them and quinn's running 10 tries marcus smith kicked nine conversions it was just a day it was a perfect marcus smith day a crisp bright day kind of men against boys on the field he just picked them open with his movement with his hands with his creativity and his kicking.

13:02And Bayon just had nothing. And that's not what this competition should be about. And talking to the Quinn's coaching staff and players afterwards, they could only be what's in front of them. But Jason Gilmore said, you know, the players want to play against the best. And it should be, and it has been in the past, an elite competition from the outset. at the moment it's it's an elite competition from the knockout stages and all i'm going to do here is say make a point we've made so many times that the competition is too big too many english clubs in it they get in when they don't deserve to be in it and it means there are too many clubs who don't know they can't go through um and so and so rotate and rest players um you've also got the issue of uh yeah quins went to leinster last week missing some players because they had to be rested as part of the the post-international agreement so it sits in a in a wrong place in the calendar and and that quins game i was at just just summed up what's what's wrong with the competition at the moment when you know there were other games which have summed up really what what is great about it like the one that mark was at we want more of those yeah absolutely and i think your point about it feeling like some of them were part of two different competitions is spot on because that's exactly how I felt the two I went to so I went Welford Road Friday night um working and on Sunday I went with my mates who we've become Po fans to watch the latest Po defeat away from home at Ashton Gate and like dwelling on the Leicester Leinster one um that just felt a crackling Friday night welfare road against the world they had a proper pop at them Leinster I thought were made to look pretty average and there's a wider point maybe there about the decline of Irish rugby and them not looking quite as hot so and if they don't absolutely max out the points they might not end up in the position they've always ended up in which is the triple benefit of being home home home all the way and that opens it off someone like Glasgow which is just makes it more interesting but so that was good fun I really enjoyed it um but then yeah the Sunday game as as you say, Poe had a couple of teenagers.

15:18One was an 18-year-old guy at seven who was born in 2007, which we were all like, oh no. And then a couple of other teenagers in the back line, Aaron Grandidia Nkanang, the guy from Bromley who plays sevens at the Olympics, got knocked out, unfortunately, in the first minute of the game. And so you think, right, well, he was one of the better players in the back line and he's already gone. And yeah, I mean, I was actually sending a couple of emails to try and organise this pod this morning and missed us, I'm going to say, Poe going 14-0 down in the space of about five minutes at the start. But the best bit about it was that we were sitting in the Dolman stand on the opposite side to where we usually are if we're working there and in the main grandstand bit.

16:02And next to us, we were like, that is a huge pocket of Poe fans. Like, where do they come from? And I was like, hang on, they're all singing in quite heavy English accents or like Devon accents. and they ended up, they were all from Tynmouth with Joe Simmons, who's obviously their fly half. Yeah. And they were going for it. They were absolutely going for it. All dressed in berets and green and stuff. There was about 150 Bayonne fans at the stoop in one corner behind the post. And they'd been making their own fun all afternoon because they had to, doing the Poznan and all sorts of things. And then as Quinn scored their ninth try, they embarked on a on a conga around the around the stadium and inevitably the stewards did their best to to ruin it so they they came out of the stand behind the posts and were immediately blocked by a steward so so turned around all all in formation and went went the other way the other way walked along the front of one of the stands then got blocked again so it disappeared behind the stand behind the post and then re-emerged through through the stairwell and back down the front and they got applauded all the way around uh missed queen score on their 10th try was probably probably for their own good but it was you know and that that side of it was great there was a lot of bottomy good good fun good atmosphere good character that but they just they obviously rocked up knowing that they were going to have to generate their own enjoyment in the afternoon and that was a shame and I think your point Alex is valid I would also broaden it around teams who are fielding weakened sides when they know they're not going to progress or certainly not progress in as high a position as they like but even teams who are riding high I'm going to cite the Edinburgh example you know you come off a big win over Toulon last week three times champions potentially the best result that club had ever had and then they go to cast which on paper you think would be an eminently winnable away game make a dozen changes in light of the two derby matches they have coming up against Glasgow and were milled I couldn't quite get my head around it because I thought I know there's this match of you win your home games and you're through which in itself is a problem but when you have one like that momentum is surely important at this time of year as well I just couldn't quite understand that.

18:29I thought it reflected badly on the competition that they would take that kind of stance in a game that they could probably have won. And it's similar with Gloucester, isn't it? Because they beat Cast last Sunday and then they go to Munster and get absolutely hammered 31-3. So it's, yeah, it's the perennial problem, isn't it, Alex? Yeah, you sense that those clubs are just waiting to drop into the Challenge Cup, which is where they should be. They can't all do it. There's only one per pool that goes into that. And some wouldn't have the resources. They'd rather not be in a competition at all, you imagine.

19:00But there's a band of clubs who should be in the Challenge Cup to start with. And it's almost like they're just waiting to drop into that to find something probably at a better level that they might be able to compete in. Definitely. Well, in a way of trying to find solutions, and look, as usual, we haven't gone through every single game because if you're a fan of one of the teams, you've probably watched it and you don't need us to tell you how you scored your tries. but we should credit a great away win for sale before we move on. Yeah, that was one of our big away wins, yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

19:33And Rafi Quirk, did you see the trial that he set up? It was absolutely awesome, showing some pace and good point made elsewhere by one of our colleagues and friends, Charlie Morgan, who writes for The Telegraph, who said if England ever want to go 7-1 on the bench and have a nine plus a wing at the same time, he's a decent hybrid option. It's always been frustrating watching Rafi Quirk, isn't it? over the years, Alex, because he's had these fits and starts of absolutely awesome play and then just keeps getting injured. It's such a shame, isn't it? Yeah, he is so good. And a lesser player England would have probably moved on from, but they know how dangerous he is.

20:09They know how good he is. And Charlie's absolutely right. The way the game is moving, if England were to go 7-1, he is the only player, I think, who they could consider picking as the single back at the moment. there isn't anyone else in the starting 15 who would cover Scrum half so you're looking for a Grant Williams type who could play nine and wing and Rafi is as close as he can have at the moment I'm not sure he's quite there yet but he's about as close as they have right now yeah absolutely so so here's my so I said at the top of the pod that we're here to fix the world in lots of different ways and here's my pitch I'm pitching to both of you this is like Dragon's Den for Champions Cup formats.

20:53We've probably come up with a new one every season, haven't we? But my new one, which I'd like your thoughts on, is how about this for a tournament? So scrap all of the Champions Cup during the normal season. You play all your domestic stuff. Everyone qualifies from that season. You have a 16-team tournament at the end of everyone's domestic season. So it's the elite, the best of the best. You play in one block over six weeks. And I'm borrowing slightly from the club world cup format there which is going to come in in 2028 and i'm also now going to borrow a bit from r360 before you take a huge intake of breath and put the semi-finals in a neutral venue a bit like the top 14 do with their barrage or the semi-finals so pick one city let's say let's say it's cardiff let's say it's edinburgh let's say it's rome wherever barcelona and you get your semi-finals back to back in the neutral venue so you'd also don't get that thing of everyone having this triple benefit of knockout matches there are flaws and we'll get on to some of them but what do we think of that as a different way of doing the champions cup well i i think there's a lot to be said for an idea like that um i think you'd find broadcasters like it because if you're the prem broadcaster right now tnt they've gone i know they had the autumn series but they won't going forward they come back for one round of premiership rugby and then lose all momentum in two rounds of Europe then they jump back into the Prem.

22:22So I think you find broadcasters like it I reckon you could sell the rights to the Champions Cup if it's played in one block for way more than they could sell them for right now because it becomes a concentrated thing where all eyes are on the Champions Cup. The obvious challenges are persuading the French to move the the end of their season earlier now we are told that everyone has agreed to do that for the club world cup in 2028 so this this would happen for the club world cup you you play the champions cup till the knockouts then all those who qualify go into a club world cup which we played at the end of the season there is a hope around the game um certainly outside of france i couldn't speak for what they're talking about in france but i know around the prem that once that happens people will see the benefit of structuring the season in that way um so i i'm a i'm a big advocate for it i think i think the tv companies would like it i think the fans would would like it um and i think that i think the teams would like it they play it gives them something to build into and it creates the champion it places the champions cup as as the elite pinnacle competition that you have to strive all year to get into i think there's a lot to be said for it I see you here, you're blatantly just angling for a June trip to La Rochelle in Bordeaux aren't you let's be honest which doesn't make you a bad person all joking aside I think there is a lot to be said for that format and Alex's point around momentum is really key because I think it's almost the worst of all worlds at the moment because the Champions Cup doesn't get any momentum with only the two rounds of two but also Prem and URC is so unbelievably fragmented, you know, either side of Six Nations and Open Test, it's impossible to build any real kind of narrative around those competitions until you're, you know, right at the business end.

24:22And I think, yeah, packaging it up in kind of distinct blocks would be a real step change in that regard. So another potential structure for the competition, which isn't my idea, but I wrote about in Saturday's paper, which came from Marco Mazzotti, the owner of the Sharks and the minority shareholder in Saracens, whose view is that while the URC has been great for the South African teams, the chopping and changing and having to go up and down is a hindrance to everybody. And he would instigate, as he called it, a mega league. So he would supercharge the Champions Cup into one competition, Europe-wide plus South Africa, potentially even plus two teams on the east coast of America, and create what the major football teams try to create with the European Super League.

25:20So ultimately, and it's from the sort of R360 playbook, it's about elevating, creating something that sits above domestic leagues. Now again, the hurdles to this idea are obvious, because suddenly you're denuding the top 14, because the best teams are no longer in it. You're deluding the Prem because the best teams are no longer in it. But his view was there is this window between domestic rugby and test rugby, which is exactly where R360 came in, going there's a big gap there that could be targeted. So Marco Mazzotti's idea was supercharge the Champions Cup. Instead of making it a cup competition alongside your domestic leagues, it becomes the league the mega league the super league if you like um what do you think about that one yeah i'm slightly nervous about the whole east coast of america thing because i just think the more flights you add and the more continents you add the more disparate all gets and it just become and also who on earth in that part of the world would actually be good enough to be part of it i suppose um at the moment i mean the mlr's going through some heavy struggles isn't it with getting rid of teams all the time and everything else but we know that something's going to have to be done but this format's kind of locked in um but yeah we should get our our listeners to email in their formats for the the ruck at the times.co.uk is our email because there's something something must be done i get where milotti's coming from in terms of a vision um i think even And he knows, having spent the last three and a half years working in rugby, that the chances of getting his vision into reality are pretty much zero because it's a sport that is so entrenched in tradition and so invested interests and entrenched positions that getting major changes is so hard.

27:17As R360 have discovered, they ran into the establishment and they've had to go back and give themselves two more years to try and convince the establishment that they should come in. So I think Mazzotti's idea, while I see the vision for it, if you were starting from scratch, you could see the benefits of having one mega European Super League with the best of the best in it. But getting there is going to be impossible. I think the idea of restructuring the season and building into a Champions Cup that becomes the focal point at the end of a campaign has way more opportunity to actually succeed.

27:57But I would be interested to hear what readers think because readers and listeners are going to, they're the people buying the tickets and it was notable that the stoop was far from sold out on Sunday and I don't know what the ticket price was, but quite often these games don't count in season tickets. I think Ashland Gate, it did count in the season ticket, but at the stoop, I don't think it would have done. so then you ask people to pay more for a game whether it's not a contest it's not the best against the best you can't trust the opposition to bring their best team whereas if you had a smaller more elite competition towards the end I reckon you probably could It's interesting Alex I think that the South African question is key to a lot of this I've been a big advocate for what they've brought to the URC, you know, covering that week to week.

28:50They've brought a great kind of uplifting standard on and off the pitch, which, you know, has forced a lot of the pre-existing clubs to really up their game. But there still does feel an incongruity about them in the European competitions, you know, much of that due to what we've just been discussing around, you know, weekend teams going back and forth between the hemispheres. You know, the whole travel piece is more pronounced because you're going up and down for one game rather than the mini tours that the URC teams do. that still doesn't feel like they're a convincing natural fit in those competitions but you know again against that is the you know the commercial heft that they bring and you know that's a difficult thing to dismiss yeah i mean that's that cat's out the bag isn't it well on the south african thing um but there we go there's there's some ideas for you all don't say we don't try and come with some solutions ruck listeners um next on the ruck what we're going to do is solve our next crisis, which is scrummaging.

29:47And we're going to get on our friend Will Collier, the cast tighthead prop, who made a couple of caps for England, played for Harlequins, who wrote an awesome piece for us in the Times, all about scrummaging and saving that. But for now, we might say goodbye to Mark. Really appreciate your time. Mark, where are you two next? Thanks for having me on. We have two 1872 Cup derbies. Remember them from your Scottish Stint World of Hamden and Murrayfield, so it'll be quite a big week. Happy days. Right, well enjoy that and bring all of the thermals that you own, I would say, for both of those. Awesome, Mark.

30:19Really good to have you on.

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31:56Okay, Will Collier, great to have you on the Ruck as a freshly published writer for The Times. How does it feel to have joined the journalist ranks, Will? Incredibly surreal. and thank you very much for all your help with it. I'm not sure it's going to be life after rugby yet, but a nice string to the bow, I guess. Well, I don't know. I mean, I'll let the readers in. So you texted me, what, early last week because you had read and listened to a lot of people talking about scrums and said, I've written an essay about my love for scrums. Do you mind having a look at it? I don't know what I want to do with it yet, but I just wanted to say something and it was so good.

32:33We thought we've got to publish it, Alex. You had a good read of it. It was great, wasn't it? I thought it was fantastic. And nowadays we can measure everything. We know what the reader's like, who clicks on what, who reads what, how long they read it for. It was the best read feature on Time Sport on the day we published it, which I think says a lot about the readers and also what they're interested in in rugby. So, Will, tell us what was in your essay. It was like a love letter to the scrum. Yeah, well, I don't really know where to start. I could start with my love for scrums way back at Woslin Park as a ball boy, five years old, six years old, Or I'll probably take you back to the start of the essay, sat at home on the sofa, reading all the headlines, the negative headlines about the scrum, in particular, the reaction to the South African scrum.

33:16And I had a book on the side. It was Hemingway's A Farewell to Arms. And I thought, well, the way things are going, I'll probably have to write A Farewell to Scrums at some point because of all the negativity. And I actually had a head knock against La Rochelle the week before. Maybe that knocked some sense into me. I don't know. but I've said I've got a bit of time now so I'm actually going to write this down and try and get my feelings and my opinion down on paper and just kind of roll from there. I mean, I could have written a short book probably on it but tried to condense it and with the help from you and Will managed to get it down to something you could publish.

33:54We loved it, didn't we, Alex? And like I have always said that I think the props are the most fascinating people to speak to and you as a former prop yourself, Alex, would definitely agree with that, wouldn't you? Well, I would, yeah. Although I feel a bit embarrassed you even calling me that with Will Collier on the line. But yeah, my own level... With Tamesians, loose head. At my own level, I did pack down on the scrum, yeah. And I was in Dublin for the Ireland South Africa game, which seems to have been the day that sort of triggered this whole debate. And we've had conversations about it on the RAC and we've written about it in the paper.

34:31so Will Collier when you watched that game what did you think about the way that South Africa approached it the decision to call scrum after scrum after scrum as a prop do you look at it from the Ireland side going oh my god we're on the receiving end here or do you look at it from the South Africa side and think yes that's a big part of the game they're showing their strength in an important part of the game I look at it from both perspectives and it's incredible. And honestly, watching it live, my heart rate's going and my palms get sweaty watching those scrums. It's incredible theatre going again and again.

35:10And then Razzie's call to bring on the subs at 30, 35 when it was, that's a massive call. You know, that shows his confidence in those tight heads. And that's part of the psychological warfare I talk about, which doesn't just come from the players. That's the impact that has on the whole team and the whole stadium because that scrum collapses. that's a 50-50 the ref's going Ireland's way I'm pretty sure because the new new props have come on it's an easy get out clause you're going to go Ireland's way but no Wilco and they come on and they destroy them and it's I look at it from both parts of it and that's the area of the game which is working for you on that day it's pretty obvious at the start of the game that's going to be the dominant aspect use it use it as much as you can to get dominance over the opposition team from within the game Will that World Rugby is trying to, if not depower it, at least reduce the importance of the scrum in rugby.

36:09We've seen it removed now for, we've got the goal line dropout instead of five metre scrums or a lot of five metre scrums. Was that part of your thinking here that you felt that if the reaction to what South Africa did that day is negative and takes the game a further step away from the scrum, that someone's got to stand up for the big lads, basically. Massively. I think we all know we're at quite an interesting crossroads in rugby and how we grow the game. And everyone says one of the biggest things that stops the game from growing is how complicated it is and people's lack of understanding of the game.

36:46Now, what's the area people understand the least? 90 % of people, probably 100 % of people, would say the set piece in particular, the scrum. So any stakeholder in rugby who wants the game to grow should want the scrum to grow and the understanding of the scrum to go you grow the scrum you grow rugby union they're intrinsically linked it's it's the same focus on the scrum invest in the scrum like south africa have done they've invested in their scrum they're reaping the rewards now in rugby union we invest in the scrum we lift the little in the scrum it's going to grow the whole game and that's what every stakeholder in rugby union should want we want to grow the game we have to grow the scrum yes you can play around with rule changes but let's pretend for a second We're not changing the rules of the scrum.

37:29The scrum is what it is. Let's invest in it now. Let's start there. Start there. Try and understand what it is and appreciate what it is. So what ideas would you have to do that, Will? You mentioned a couple in your piece about, I don't know, sending people to go and speak to Dan Heumann and his farm in South Africa, the South African scrum coach. And like unleashing the secrets, I suppose, I think you said, of the dark arts of the scrum. So as a person who played in the top 14 at cast, a place that loves their scrums how would you want us to kind of help celebrate it well my my one of the main points i had is there's not many people who know about scrums which is obvious and the obvious people who do are the scrum coaches so as i said they'll hate me for saying this because they love operating in the shadows but that's an obvious place to start to try and bring them into the limelight so a scrum collapses it's a reset or the packs of packing down for a scrum cut to a scrum coach what's what's going on what's the analysis been this week what are you looking at how are you tracking in the league and then stats this is not just stats of the pack individual stats of the props this prop's given away these penalties then they've collapsed they've gone elbow to floor and then go further explain what's the elbow to floor there's a penalty in the game the ref's called elbow to floor he's done this image let's have a graphic up on the screen we have the technology now to do that what's what does that actually look like and then a slow-mo replay of the scrum and then discussing it and then if there's time instead of there being silenced when there's a scrum that's when the scrum coaches give the analysis and give the insight and i know they probably won't want to do as much of that because they want to keep these secrets but i think we have to now we're at that point when we have to you see it when occasionally we have time to cut to the backs coaches or other coaches in the game i think we have to lift the lid and and get these people into the game and then there's far more you know why not put a couple of dominant scrums on a highlight reel every once in a while there's there's so much more we can do that we were talking on text after you wrote your piece about scrum fluences we need like an instagram tiktok account for you you guys to share all these secrets don't we yeah i think it's a good idea because david flatman is sort of alone in that group at the moment and TNT I think use him really cleverly get him down pitch side often right next to a scrum if it's on his side of the field to talk about the dynamics of it but it's as you say I guess there aren't enough experts in in broadcasting who can shine a light on it from the outside and the reality is expecting a scrum coach who is you know who wants to keep his his analysis and his secrets to himself to open the door is hard.

40:07And that is part of rugby's issue, I think, that there's too much emphasis placed on high performance and those small margins and maybe not enough on engaging the wider public. Yeah, no, definitely. But I think it kind of starts with the appreciation, which comes, as I said, the stakeholders who want the game to grow. You have to appreciate the scrum. It starts with the appreciation, and then we try and move on to the understanding. and one of the reasons I get very passionate about this is I think when I first realised we had a big problem I was thinking of the day, back in 2015 I was playing for Harlequins against Saracens and Wembley we had a very dominant scrum throughout the game it was brilliant we were against a very impressive Saracens front row first scrum of the game we had an amazing shove I started square, put the pressure on the hooker we went through them Mark Lambert, my loose head, drilled up and across we got the penalty everyone celebrated, it was great and the following day I re-watched it back for a bit of an ego boost and it was met with silence and then a commentator, I'm obviously not going to name his name, but saying, I don't understand why they're all celebrating here.

41:11They're just doing their jobs. They shouldn't be celebrating and then just silence and then on to them kicking the points. And this is such a crucial part of the game. I know that was, what, 10 years ago now, but that attitude has kind of lingered on, I think. do you think um so when you when you pack down into a scrum will what do you want to achieve because i think i think perhaps the scrum has evolved in the professional game from being a contest for a restart to an opportunity to to to win a penalty and therefore earn territorial points where do you sit on on the balance between the two because there was an argument that there are too many penalties for scrums and that the dominance to get front football is enough.

42:02When you're packing down, what do you want to achieve? Is it to create fatigue and front football for your team? Or are you always trying to get a penalty each time? No, that honestly completely depends. I've been in a lot of games, say for Harlequins, when we say if we have a scrum 30 to 40 minutes, which is before half time and it's our ball we're going for a penalty there or first scrum of the game all bets are off we're going for a penalty or last week we had a tough we have a tough week we've got to change the perception here we're going to get the ball in and away really quick quick hook and play the ball away it really really depends but then again that's the kind of understanding that I think the fans would love to hear and understand this scrum's under pressure look how quickly they're trying to hook away or they know they've got dominance here we're going to really attack and go hard in this particular area Will it's fascinating we could we could talk about this for ages couldn't we but I think one of the other things is that do you feel like there's been a massive appreciation shift what since you've moved to France because obviously the sort of stereotypical view of Harlequins for example where you spent most of your career is that it's all about the outside backs isn't it and I know that you built your prem winning your two prem winning titles probably on pretty decent pack with you at the fore in both of them but have you found that now you're playing in cast in the world of the top 14 that people are really appreciative of what you do more?

43:29I think I was lucky by the time I left Quinn's there was that appreciation for it because we'd had a really good scrum for the last kind of four or five years and it did become a part of our identity obviously not the main part of it but that was certainly a part of it and the fans started to really appreciate it but over here there is a different energy it's it's the the the scrums cooled and the drums start banging and the fans start grumbling and start singing. And if you're a travelling player, you feel that energy. And not just you, the ref. I think it does influence the ref. It has to. That energy rippling through the stadium.

44:06The drums, the chants. And if there's a penalty. It's like I said, and I mean it. Sometimes it gets celebrated like it's a try. The fans go mad. It's incredible. It's incredible energy, incredible feeling. and what that does to a team is unbelievable but it's like I said it's the appreciation and that's what South Africa have built and it's not just built on one or two props it's built on the whole team collectively pushing together, it's not just Thomas de Toys or Vuelco Lowe it's everyone, you see before a game when Dan Hooman's got the whole pack under the post, blowing his whistle practising that collective timing, they're hugging the ground, they're practising the snap that's why they have that dominance, it's not just a couple of big slugs who can be subs in whenever they want and by the way I think they're both incredibly fit and mobile props they just happen to be monsters.

44:53Alex I think if we ever need someone to dissect some scrumaging for us on any medium we need Will Collier don't we get him on the telly. Yeah I know he's been modest at the start of the conversation about post career post rugby career options but I've banged that drum for a long time that you know as I'm going to I appreciate the scrum but sitting in the stands I can't analyse, I can't see the detail that Will's talking about here. I think really only David Flatman does that in the ride of broadcasting. I do think there has to be more opportunities for people like Will. I'm not trying to retire you, Will, yet, but when you do choose to hang up the boots, I genuinely think there's a massive gap in both written coverage and broadcasting of rugby.

45:42to highlight the importance of the contest as we've just been discussing. So I do think there is a future career for Will in broadcasting in Germany. Well, there you go. Save our scrums, Will. Thanks so much for your time and all the best. Thanks, guys. For your comeback at CAST. Cheers. All the best.

46:09Awesome to have Will Collier on that, Alex, wasn't it? like just great that he was proactive in getting in touch with us no one does that, this is brilliant stuff it's prop forwards mate, they are the heart and soul of rugby and he's trying to protect his job but you're right, as characters they are, you know, there's just something because it takes a certain person to want to, A to want to do it and B to really love it I loved his description of watching those scrums in the island's africa game and his his palms are sticky and he's like high his heart rates up because he's he's living it he knows what that's like just and it was it was as evocative as his article was so anyone who hasn't read it i really would encourage you to go and read it because it just takes you right into the the mentality and the physicality required to to pack down in a in a scrum at his level it's um it was a great piece and also to slightly like pull back the curtain as well often when you read like player columns they're ghosted so what we mean by that is i'll ring someone up have a chat with them and write it myself like that's how you would write courtney law's column alex and stuff for that and that's quite a usual form for doing those things but will collier wrote that all himself that was i think we changed a couple of words maybe but that was all from his own pen so all all power to will collier and if he does take our jobs then it's our fault because we've helped him do it.

47:38But you mentioned there, Alex, the heart and soul of the game being the scrum and you've given me a nice segue to our final topic for the RUC, which is the endless debate about what on earth is going to happen to the championship, the premiership, promotion into the Prem from the champ. And you were writing about this last week. So can you fill us in on where we are with all that? Because we thought we had a solution and now it's all seemingly changing. and now I'm not sure we do have a solution so uh the season began with a promotion and relegation playoff within the regulations that that playoff has actually been in place for a few years but we've never seen it play out because um the winners of the champ uh Ealing in the last few years and Jersey before that haven't passed the minimum standards requirements to enter the premiership so therefore the playoff was redundant because the winners of the champ couldn't come up even if they'd beaten Newcastle as it was at the bottom team in the prem so anyway so we started the season with with that in place but you may recall that there was an idea to scrap that plan and replace it with a team from the the championship winners to come up and no team go down.

48:56The compromise agreement was that the Prem, that would help the Prem expand by two teams over two years. They want to get back to a 12-team league. Now, I say compromise because ultimately, the Prem want to be a standalone franchise competition that is disconnected from the rest of the English rugby pyramid so that the championship would become the top league of the English rugby pyramid and then the Prem would be the elite competition standing alone. Obviously the champ don't want that, so the compromise that came out was this idea that mid-season they would change the regulations, scrap the playoff and have the promoted team, the championship winners, coming up to the Prem.

49:41Now, we did voice concerns about the viability of this idea on the pod and they appear to be coming to pass. December 1st was the deadline for any championship team who wanted to be considered for promotion to have their facilities, etc. audited against the minimum entry requirements for the Prem Only two clubs submitted an application Eagling Trail Finders, who are top of the league and who have routinely failed the audit based on their stadium and Doncaster Knights, who actually passed the audit last year, but didn't win the league, and they are currently 10th. Worcester Warriors, who are the team that the Prem would really like to come in, didn't submit an application.

50:35Did they just forget or didn't know?

50:41So the sense is that they're not quite ready. when I spoke to a few people around the champ the feeling was that they were seeking some information and still waiting on that information and were caught by surprise when the RFU confirmed that only two clubs had submitted an application so I think you could you could say that they perhaps hadn't realised what the deadline was. Now, they put out an interestingly worded statement on the back of that last week, which, you know, on the surface doesn't really confirm very much. It simply says they'd like to return to the Prem at the earliest possible opportunity.

51:27But the implication, you kind of learn to read these things in a certain way, and it flagged up to me that maybe the conversation was changing. Why would they start talking about trying to return to the prem at the earliest possible opportunity, having just not submitted an application? So I made a few calls, and there's nothing certain yet, but my sense is that the conversation that was going to happen ahead of a big meeting in February around this original compromise is going to change. Now there won't be promotion because I don't see Doncaster winning that league. I don't see Ealing passing the audit.

52:12So therefore nobody comes up. The Premiership and the RFU are committed to that league expanding. So what's the only way that that league can expand? It would be if a team, a franchise, is invited to join the Prem. So they play God and they pick their favourite, basically. Because from the Prem perspective, the Prem is a privately owned league. They don't want, frankly, they don't want Ealing Trail Finders in the league because they've already got two clubs in London. Ealing Trail Finders wouldn't add, you know, they're very well funded, a hugely rich club, but they don't get crowds that the Premiership would want involved.

52:55Not the people, I mean the size. They don't get the size of crowds. they don't believe they'd add commercially and so strategically Ealing are not the kind of club who the premiership would want the premiership are looking at Yorkshire, Birmingham the Midlands, Kent and so Worcester fit the bill, established club crowds of 7 ,000 in the championship obviously there's Wasps trying to come back in Kent that story's a little quiet but Wasps are trying to come back with a stadium plan in Kent, that would appeal to the premiership. The Yorkshire project would appeal to the premiership. So Doncaster, you know, they've got a stadium, they would pass the audit.

53:39Could that be, you know, could they return Yorkshire's place in the top flight? The Prem are looking at this strategically, in the same way as the NFL do with their expansion teams. They don't want to be beholden to who happens to win the league that year. and so if we're in a point now where this compromise agreement isn't going to work because the right teams aren't going to come up or perhaps no team will come up then the only the only logical step is for the conversation to change in february and for really the permanent end of promotion and relegation to be on the table with any new entries to the prem being done via an expression of interest yeah fascinating my strong sense is that's where it's going what the timeline is for that is another matter because i like london irish um are they're stirring into life as i wrote last week they've they've they've released a kit they've they're asking fans to to register for tickets um the urc need a club next season because the wru are cutting the regions from four to three London Irish have always been interested in the URC they have been talking to the URC for a long time but of course they're also interested in the Prem but at the moment their route into the Prem is via the Championship and London Irish's position from the outset has been they want to come in to the top flight, back to top flight rugby so I don't sense they're interested in the Championship but they would be interested if entry was based on going directly into the into the prem then there's wasps there's worcester as we say established facilities fan base so i just i just get the sense that the conversation is starting to shift towards an end of promotion relegation earned on the field and towards what the prem have been angling for for a while which is they exist as a standalone franchise league where any where the the door into the league is not shut but to but to be to be welcomed you'll be judged on strategic elements that have nothing to do with whether you win or lose on the field yeah yeah fascinating and it's one of those topics that whenever we talk about or write about engages so many people because it matters to a lot of people all this doesn't it the pyramid and everything else but we've probably run out of time to do a deeper dive on it but that was a really good explanation i know much more about what's going on having listened to alex so hopefully all of you do too i mean you mentioned february yeah it'll unfold more over the next month or so um as to whether how hard the prem are going to chase this how you know i'm talking here it's just you sometimes you get a sense from you conversations around what might be brewing and this is the sense that i get because there is if the if automatic promotion isn't going to work for next season and the prem and the rfu are committed to the prem expanding there is no other way that they can expand in the way that they want to other than inviting teams in so there's no hard and fast detail this is just just a kind of conversation and and this is what you if you put your finger in the wind theory where i feel this is where I feel the wind is blowing right now we'll we'll work on getting more detail to attach to it over the next period of time and yeah big meetings coming in February we believe yeah absolutely well look you're probably going to have an opinion on that if you exist in any bit of the pyramid of English rugby so the ruck at the times.co.uk is always email address for things like that so for now this has been the ruck from the times and the Sunday times Alex another busy week preparing stuff before Christmas and everything else for you, is it?

57:35It will be, yeah. Some nice Christmas features, some reviews of the year. We'll be back for our rock review of the year, won't we? Yeah, absolutely. We're going to try and get that sorted over the next few days, possibly with the return of Alfie, let's see. Possibly, possibly. And yeah, we'll get you a couple of Christmas episodes in the bag so that you can enjoy us while you're eating your turkey and unwrapping your presents. But for now, that's it. We've solved a fair bit on the pod today. So appreciate you all listening and join us again next week for The Ruck.

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