Injury-hit England aim for a perfect autumn

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0:50Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times, previewing the final weekend of the November internationals unless you're Wales and South Africa. I'm Alfie Reynolds alongside Will Kelleher. Hello. And Elgin Alderman. Hello, how are you? I am very well, thank you. Picturesques, I look at both of you here. Back up at the England training base. I mean, I feel like I don't need to say that anymore because it's basically a... Usually are. Home away from home, isn't it? Through November and Six Nations. But the two of you in front of the fireplace, a nice way to finish off.

1:20Alfie: Crackling fireside, Elgin and I.

1:22Elgan: This is quite cosy, isn't it? Very much so. This is the coziest podcast I've ever been on. So I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out as a result. Let's hope we don't sound like we're falling asleep halfway through. But if we are, you can click at our selfie or something.

1:34Alfie: And that will be partly because of the fire, but also partly because you got up in the middle of the night to watch the first Ball of the Ashes. So, I mean, we all like our cricket. Elgin's written plenty more about cricket than I ever have done. So he should talk more about it than me. But I woke up at 2.30 or 2.20. What a weird time for it to start. So I woke up at 2.15 for the Ashes. watch the first hour until 3 30 ish until drinks and then i was like you've either got to commit and stay up or go back to bed and wake up again and i i woke up and i was like no australia are batting but they're two down kind of thing so very weird day of cricket wasn't it elgin i opted for

2:11Elgan: the staying up approach normally on a thursday night i can be found at the london welsh center not far from king's cross so i stayed there until half midnight to minimize the amount of time on my sofa waiting for the first ball worked a treat saw the first wicket first four overs then thought

2:26Alfie: oh that's me done off to bed now well i managed to get basically the last two wickets in england innings and then the full england bowling aussie innings for so far so i feel like i timed it relatively well that was kind of getting so you saw archer hitting people in the face yeah all of that everyone backing away yeah leg yeah all of the above so it's good stuff and it's quite is there a segue here for the rugby like go fast and aggressive at argentina or something really clever like that so i'd imagine you guys are probably the same in the writer's briefing but i spoke to ben spencer and richard wigglesworth today and i spoke to both of them about the cricket i did try and ask richard wigglesworth for whether you know what they make of basball and that approach of no and he didn't really kind of said oh it's different sport and you don't take too much from it which i was like oh i was hoping for a bit more from that it became the the buzz

3:10Elgan: word didn't it sort of money balling in various sports now it's everyone's saying oh yeah we're going to basball this now i think it's it became a verb where no one really knows what it means in other sports obviously I mean people don't really understand I think fully what it means in cricket people are always getting it wrong what it means if indeed it means anything we were talking earlier about how some of the Australian newspapers don't even refer to them as England anymore they just call them basball you know basball cricket board basball and Wales cricket board I hope they're well yeah I was going to say when England used to go on cricket tours they were the MCC not England weren't they so now they're the as you say the basball cricket board no but I think in answer to your question probably is not a particularly

3:47Alfie: smooth segue so i'll do this instead which is as i say we're up at the england training base and before we go any further we're going to obviously preview the weekend england's game with argentina and the other big matches coming up over the next couple of days but injury news from the england camp today max ajomo is in fraser dingwall drops out yeah so here's maybe a cricket link because fraser dingwall poor bloke's got a side injury which is the only sort of thing you hear bowlers getting isn't it so yeah poor guy because and actually it was interesting because we were sort of aware that there was going to be some team news today and we were kind of trying to work out who it might be who was injured and we actually thought beforehand ding will be quite an annoying one to lose because there's not an obvious replacement however then you go oh yes max ajomo comes in and replaces him so that would be his second cap he played against the us in the summer so he's already made a test debut but not played a lot of tests rugby and i guess a good opportunity for England here to test their depth because they've had a whole load of backline reshuffling happen this week haven't they well that's the interesting thing isn't it so it makes it seven changes in total I'll come on to the other six in just a second which you would have seen on Wednesday but the thing that struck me here Elgin is England have lost their starting centre combination from the All Blacks game the Dingwall-Lawrence combination that we quite like the look of and I suppose there's two ways of looking at that one is damn that's annoying ahead of an Argentina a game which is a really tough test and the other thing is probably to use the analogy will you've used a couple of times on on the pod the last few we've done is knockout game at the world cup or world cup semi-final heading into a final and injuries can happen you lose your center combination how are you able to deal with that and so this is a great challenge for england very much so yeah

5:23Elgan: we you know it was just beginning to flourish and and even so even the fact that fraser dingwall is playing is possibly down to the fact that seb atkinson's injured because he did so well in the summer and then had that nasty injury playing for Gloucester last month so yeah like you say you know other countries like France who are potentially missing 10 members of their first choice 23 at the moment it is just part and parcel of rugby right now we were talking just before the change was confirmed and we were spitballing what the change might be and we were thinking oh maybe this is maybe they're delaying it slightly because it's going to be Ben Earl at 12 so the position was right but it wasn't quite the Ben Earl news we were thinking might have we asked richard wigglesworth did you consider that and there wasn't a sort of come on no it was like yeah yeah no we did think about it but this just suits we might do it in game but this suits for max ajomo to play and then mara toge came and told us a nice story about steve ajomo max's dad who when max was quite young and mara had never met max steve ajomo who obviously played for bath and played for england himself and newport and newport there you go got to get the welsh

6:23Alfie: reference in that's why you're here at the sea that doesn't get in if you're not on the pod um steve joe rang maro told you let's say five or six years ago and said can you get into max's ear and tell him to basically stay in school and keep studying which i thought was quite cute and maro was sort of going like i haven't even met him it's a bit weird for me to just ring him up and go come on mate keep get a degree but he has got a degree he's got what was it business

6:47Elgan: management business something or other at university of bath so he has stayed in school and he's now getting his opportunities following his father's footsteps in england team i wonder

6:57Alfie: what the background context was there for why he was potentially not going to be yeah maybe he was trying to wag off or something yeah yeah exactly uh before we go any further tee up this game for me argentina how tough a challenge is this for england especially a week after beating the all blacks i think for england this is a massive challenge because the pumas are a fantastic team they've beaten new zealand they've beaten the lions they completed an extraordinary comeback at Murrayfield last weekend, 21-0 down and won with something to spare. They've got some unbelievable players. They've left Pablo Matera on the bench, Santi Carreras on the bench like they did in Murrayfield.

7:36The back row with Kremer and Gonzalez are awesome. Iscro in the air on the wing, Juan Cruz, Malia. Some unbelievable players. And I think also with England's injuries, no Roebuck, no Chessham, no Jamie George, no Lawrence, no Dingwall now. They're really testing this thing. they keep talking to us about about the wider squad the 36 that keep challenging us through the week so if England can end their year with 11 wins out of 12 for the calendar year then you kind of go fantastic massive progress because I was just looking up before between 2021 and 2024 England won England had 50 tests and they won 26 of them so that is properly down the middle average where so this year has been a complete sea change to the norm of winning largely all of your games apart from one the one in dublin at the start of the year so i think for england it'd be incredibly annoying and frustrating if they were to lose the final match of the year and if they win it on the flip side it's a nice rubber stamp to say 2025 was a year of massive progress those

8:41Alfie: other six changes because we mentioned that the ajomo coming in for dingwall is the seventh so So Ellis Genge, Luke Cowandiki, Ashropoku, Fourjaw, the new front row, Ben Spencer at nine, Henry Slade at 13 and Elliot Daly are all of those changes. Elliot Daly back in Elgin. It's the first time we've seen him since the British Norwich Lions tour to Australia.

9:02Elgan: Yeah, he's one of the players that's been very interested in the cricket. When we spoke to him earlier this week, we were reminiscing on how within sort of two days maybe of him coming back from that Lions tour, he was thrust onto Test Match Special unbeknownst to what he thought he was quite going to be doing at one of the England Test Matches. But a player of his experience, an experienced Lyon, England player across the back three but also outside centre, he's the type of player that's one of those almost like having an extra pair of coaching eyes on the field. They feel they can thrust him straight back in onto that wing.

9:32Elgan: And there's Steve Borthwick speaking this week, speaking very positively about how Elliot Daly has got a big role to play over the next two years going to that World Cup. not just as a player who's shown versatility for some years but has also been there and seen so much of the game wasn't that interesting so I wasn't here like you guys were on Wednesday when Elliot Daly spoke and so did Steve Borthwick because I was interviewing Gus Pescia which we might talk about a bit later which was quite fun and interesting but I found it fascinating that was the piece that Alex wrote how Borthwick spoke about Daly as opposed to how he spoke about Henry Slade so he's two guys who in some ways have had weirdly similar careers Daly's probably achieved a lot more he's been a multi-tour Lion and had all those amazing that consecutive run of Lions tests games and tour games won all sorts of titles and everything else where Slade has done a bit less of that but I've always viewed them in a similar boat i.e they were people when they were young who everyone was like oh my god imagine if they can get Daly in the team imagine if Slade in the team and you look at them now and you go they're both exactly the same number of caps 73 and you're kind of going if their career ended right now would you go they're an england great and some people would put daly in a top i don't know 40 england players ever maybe yeah i don't

10:52Alfie: think 50 but they definitely wouldn't put slate i don't think either of them would necessarily be considered england greats but i think the overall career point is a good one because i think elliot daly's career would be looked on more a lot more favorably but probably because of the lions no No, definitely because of the Lions. Because actually, I mean, Slade has won a European Cup. He's won titles with Exeter as well. Two Prems and a double? The Lions thing, I think, is what determined that. The way that Borthwick spoke about it was I found interesting because he was effusive about Elliot Daly.

11:21He was saying, we've had a conversation and he's going to be at the 27 World Cup. He's so intelligent. He's like another coaching pair of eyes on the field. And then we also have a Henry Slade sort of thing. and I think Alex actually asked Steve Borswick this question being like do you sort of think the same about Henry Slade and it was a bit like or are you going to convince him to stay because he's out of contract with Exeter next summer and it was like oh that's a private conversation I couldn't possibly where he had just talked about his private conversation with Elliot Daly so that was an interesting distinction I thought between two guys who are similar age exactly the same number of caps it feels like Elliot Daly's place in this team for the next two years is secure where Henry Slade is maybe just coming in for this one game because lots of these other guys

12:06Alfie: are injured yeah it's an interesting time isn't it in particular I suppose when we've seen Tommy Freeman play 13 this November I know he's injured now as well so I think there's definitely a question mark over kind of Henry Slade and where his England future is and actually sorry to linger on that slightly he sort of in a very different way sort of falls into the Tom Willis conversation is does he want to stay and fight for it and say I didn't get to the last World Cup I was dropped just before it for Joe Marchant so I am absolutely desperate to get to the next one especially because look at this squad we could go we could win that and I could be part of a World Cup winning team or does he go I'm finding myself further and further away from the best team so cash your chips go to France I think the context is very different there between Tom Willis who has barely had any England hatches yes Henry Slade who's got had over 70 and might just think do you know what I've had a great run for what's he been part of the team for 10 years the best part of a decade he was at the 15 World Cup he was did he make his debut or no he was part of the team that played Uruguay wasn't he I think when they came in he was involved around the whole reshuffle with Burgess and Barrett wasn't he but I think he might look at it and say I've had a great run and you know what I'm feeling myself being pushed to the side a little bit here so I'm we've got whereas Tom Willis is because that was his position I think that's just I totally agree with you I just think that's an interesting position that Slade's in and he's been in this position a few times where his contract's been coming up and we've spoken to Rob Baxter and people who know Slade and they've gone well it's sort of dependent on how he feels he is with England and you look at it now and you go well if everyone was fit he wouldn't be in this team on the weekend would he no and so does he just go I'll do the Six Nations and then wave goodbye and take the big check final one on England in terms of the squad selection I think it says an awful lot that Guy Pepper is starting once again and I also find it kind of mad that Tom Curry is on the bench once again I know how good the England bench has been and if you can have someone of his quality and experience then brilliant but how I mean it wouldn't have been that long ago that that would have seemed unfathomable that Tom Curry is coming off the bench for every game through November yeah for sure like Curry's position on the bench through this whole November I think you can look at it two ways I have nothing to back up the second point but it's just a vibe and a theory but the first point is that yes it clearly means that the other back rows are playing really well if you can keep Lions ledge Tom Curry on the bench but my my second other theory is is this quite good political playing from Steve Borswick here with his Lions where we were at the Prem launch you remember Alfie in what what we have been September something mid-September and people like Alex Sanderson and some of the other coaches Phil Dowson I remember particularly Mark McCall with the whole PGP thing going, it's always us, isn't it, that has to rest these guys?

14:53It's always us. So Steve Borthwick, off the back of this, can go, I've given Curry 20 minutes every week here. I have not overdone him at all. I've not overcooked him after a long Lions year. I even gave Maro Toje 70 minutes out of the Fiji game and might not have even brought him on, but Chesson got injured. I've rested Ford for one of the games. Come on, guys, I'm doing this for you as well. I have wondered about that through this.

15:18Alfie: I think it's a really interesting but I had wondered similar and we're never going to get the exact answers but I did wonder whether there was an element of that of Tom Curry he's had so many injuries big injuries as well one off the back of the Lions tour we haven't seen him for sale yet whether there was also a part of it of this is the PGP potentially working or whether it's more if you were to ask Steve Borswick directly on the record he would say I've picked the best team for this week and the best team for this week has Tom Curry on the bench yeah but I would also say that he's a savvy guy and he's got a good relationship with people like alexanderson and i can see there have been a conversation there going like we can't keep battering tom curry if we want to make him to get into the 27 world cup so how about we try this

15:58Elgan: i looked into the england back row some of the statistics last week for the all blacks game and what struck me was how curry and underhill we do often think of them together because they played on that argentina tour eight years ago because they were the the kamikaze kids as they were christened in the 2019 World Cup, and how their outputs, League England, are actually very similar. They're both great defenders, hit hard, no one wants to run into them. But how Guy Pepper was a very different operator in terms of what he got out of it, in terms of his effectiveness at rucks, his ability to just hit so many rucks more than any of the other back rowers that were in contention.

16:35Elgan: So when you look at the back row they select of Earl, Pepper and Underhill, it is just so balanced with things going on. whereas curry and underhill would not be a bad back row by any stretch but you'd have perhaps you know a six and seven who are doing quite similar things whereas pepper does have that that point of difference that sets him apart where if you start with that there is lovely balance in that back row and when they were in kamikaze kid mode who's the eight billy vinopola who's doing something very different which they couldn't do whereas now they don't have that absolute beast at number eight they've got a very different number eight yeah that's an

17:06Alfie: interesting point yeah absolutely let's finish off on argentina i know you've spoken about it already will and the importance of england winning this game how big a chat this is such a big challenge for england isn't it because argentina are no mugs there is i think a feeling externally i know they won't have it in the camp of the big game was last week we've got premier league football returning this weekend england's biggest game was against the all blacks the ashes test matches the ashes has just started there feels like there's a lot less kind of fervor and excitement almost but and it's a sunday argentina get put on the sunday every week don't they it's a bit of a off that it's like the italy and the six nations game isn't it fair isn't it it's massive this for i totally agree that look i think that england's 2025 has been a resounding success regardless of what happens but i think it's massive for them to keep that winning streak going and keep the momentum going into the six nations at the start of next year yeah and like dwelling on argentina like we've had elgin's written a piece about argentina this week alex has written about he interviewed felipe contopomi this week and they're just such a fascinating study because all of it shouldn't work they've got no domestic league their players play all over the place they play some of them will play 12 months through the year because of the fact that they play sort of northern hemisphere club rugby and then test rugby in the southern hemisphere a bit like the spring box and lots of the world seems to have always been against them and again we can get on to pete show in a minute maybe but they've been fighting against the grain of world rugby for decades haven't they but look at them beating all the teams they're beating they're not scared of anyone they've got incredibly talented players Contopomi said to Alex that they don't fear anyone but they're still 25 years behind everyone else in terms of professionalism but yeah I don't think anyone who knows their rugby would underestimate the Pumas like they're they're

18:52Elgan: an awesome team what will be interesting to you on Sunday is that I don't think that you know beating England winning at Twickenham is Argentina's final boss by any stretch of the imagination They've already won there twice. They've achieved things that are on the paper harder than doing that. But I feel like England have never quite seen the best version of the Pumas that almost every other nation in the world has experienced at some stage in recent years. Because you think of the tours that have gone on during Lions tours when England have had been without their Lions and yet have won all six of the past six tests on those tours.

19:25Elgan: you then think of the early red cards England have had in the autumn of 2016 the 23 World Cup where England have still won those matches convincingly so if there is any sense among England fans that are underrating Argentina's ability I think it might be because England have yet to have one of those pumas performances that the All Blacks have had that the Springboks have had that Scotland had for 20 minutes last Sunday where just you know it sounds like a cliche but people do always talk about it the the latin energy the passion that they have they are very enigmatic but it means that when they're on it their their speed and power can be almost unstoppable

20:00Alfie: we'll finish us off here augustin pichot as you mentioned you've been chatting to him former puma himself ran for world rugby five years ago yeah at one point doesn't feel that long ago but yeah i mean fascinating guy still wearing the white trainers with the blue suit and stirring his mat which I thought was a nice metaphor for what he does these days just stirring the pot from the outside yeah I met him in Kensington the other day he's over for the game and the news there's lots and lots of things and hopefully people read the piece because it's covered all sorts from Nations Championship to Greatest Rivalry Series to Rugby and Survival Mode to R360 but I felt the most sort of exciting bit of news from all of it was that he is trying to bring the World Cup to South America and I think that phrase just gets you going oh yeah oh yeah and so sort of the admin on it is that he is no longer on the executive committee the sort of big decision making body at world rugby because he kind of got pushed out the back door after he lost to Bill Beaumont in 2020 tightly I think it was 28 votes to 23 in 2020 chairmanship election but he is still a leader in the South American rugby organization and they are on the sort of wider council and he joked and said oh yeah the council we just get sandwiches and World Cup tickets and they I no longer go because I feel guilty letting World Rugby pay for the airfare but he is influential clearly on that on that board and is trying to bring a joint bid together from Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Uruguay and like that sounds really cool.

21:35That sounds fun. That sounds really cool.

21:36Elgan: Yeah I think this isn't just a rugby thing it's an all sport thing but people always look at North America USA as the thing they want to crack they probably look towards the Middle East as well because of all the money that's there financing everything in sport but when you look at the nations outside of the main rugby nations that are on the rise it's South America and mainland Europe where people aren't really thinking about obviously we had Belgium running Samoa so close this week in that final qualification tournament for the World Cup but in South America you've got not only Argentina who are now very well established as a leading nation you've got Chile and Uruguay who are decent you know use the term tier two nations that are doing well as well also involved in qualification for the expanded world cup you had Brazil and Paraguay Brazil were in that final qualification tournament Paraguay should have been but they had an illegal player and voluntarily withdrew because there's always some sort of eligibility row going on it's just a shock it wasn't Spain for once this this time around after the last two tournaments but there is something there in South America not just with Argentina but all those other nations around Will and I've been talking with a few people about it on on social media today about a South American World Cup and they were saying how oh it'd be too far apart but you know even within Argentina their home games are 500 miles apart so um you know if you've got uh Santiago and Montevideo on the on the on the uh venue list as well it would be no different and it would be very exciting well as

22:55Alfie: we know all too well it's quite far apart in australia as we and the us and the us and france is obviously a lot smaller than the whole continent of south america but that wasn't an easy world cup to get around for all of us was it so look so just to cover off the admin again on that so the bidding process for this 2035 we're talking about and then possibly 2039 the one after that that's the ones they're going for the bidding process kind of opened last month and they're going to sort of finalize who are in the mix by next year and then pick the winner in Australia in 2027 so the likely candidates are going to be the South American bid Spain and World Rugby are very interested in the Spanish one because they could use some unbelievable stadiums like the new camp the new new camp and the Bernabeu and things like that and Italy are also wrangling and then there's also an idea that everyone could go back to Japan and those of us who are lucky enough to get out to Japan love that tournament but to me I feel like it as Gus Peasher said himself let's rotate it somewhere else no don't go back to Japan let's go to South America why not we'd all love it we'll wait and see the other one I will say there is and I can understand when they complain about this is how has the World Cup not gone back to South Africa since 95 yes the chance as we all know was it for the 23 World Cup and France pulled the rug yeah okay all right well we'll leave the build-up to the england argentina game there we'll have a quick break and then we will look ahead to the rest of the matches here's a tip for you there's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer they tune in every week they trust the host and that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience the problem is you just haven't been introduced yet We're Acast, where that introduction happens.

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25:08Alfie: So other games this weekend, Wales against New Zealand. And Elgin, what constitutes success for the Welsh against the All Blacks?

25:17Elgan: We were sort of joking before we came on air that it was a hot take, but I'm not actually sure how much of a hot take it is. But I think Wales beating the All Blacks on Saturday would be a bigger shock than Japan's miracle of Brighton against the Springboks just because even during good moments of Welsh international rugby, they've only come close to beating the All Blacks twice since 1978. They haven't done it since 1953. three um Newport and Llenetli have beaten them more recently than than Wales have so you're coming into it with yeah the All Blacks have made lots of changes but their changes are Damian McKenzie is at fly half so it's a different magnitude of changes to what Wales are going through which is obviously you know two wins in their past 21 tests both of them against Japan you got the likes of Harry Deave's lovely story about the things he does at Ponte Clean Rugby Club where he can still be found catering and doing the laundry and coaching the juniors on the day he gets called up to the whale squad etc but it's sort of shaping up again as perhaps you know heroic failure pluckiness but i think people are worried at just how one-sided it would be hopefully it'll be one of the one of the great shocks where devil may care whales do a not terrible performance against the all blacks but certainly people aren't expecting much success on saturday you've reminded me Elgin of when I used to work for the Daily Mail I covered Wales quite regularly and I remember being in Wales often the away team or certainly used to stay in the Hilton Hotel in town and it was a Steve Hansen All Blacks coming to Cardiff and I remember just trying to get quite a short news line from him I asked him a question that was something along the lines of when you come here do you feel like you've beaten Wales before you've got here because they haven't beaten you since 1953 and this was like the most steve hansen response ever and i'm gonna try and do his accent wait for it so he was like well the thing about a drought mate is uh it's always one day closer to its raining i was like what a quote that is brilliant i'm not sure it's gonna rain on

27:16Alfie: on this weekend you'd be surprised wouldn't you really i mean two as we've kept saying through november really this weekend and then the following weekend against spring walks is two brutal fixtures for Wales when you feel like they just don't need them if this is I'm not I'm not saying this to be rude or horrible necessarily but or you guys judge me is this unfair to say that if Wales concede in those games fewer than 100 points they've done well well across the two

27:44Elgan: of them yeah so I think the the South Africa one looms much worse because they will of course be without all their England players. I mean, the record we're looking at, and every Welshman will know this, was the 96-13 of 1998. I don't think it'll be that bad, but I've thought lots of things that have been wrong before. And I've always thought, okay, this is the Nadir. Okay, no, this is the Nadir. So maybe we've got two more Nadirs to come. But for the All Blacks, I don't think it'll be that bad. South Africa, I think, will be worse. But who knows? Italy almost shipped three figures to the All Blacks for the World Cup.

28:20Elgan: so it can be done if it does go all against you. I'm currently not thinking that, but I'm allowed to change my opinion after Saturday, depending on what happens. I'm not just doing this for clicks or anything, but the last couple of times the All Blacks have been to Cardiff, they've put 50 on Wales. Is that right? I think so. Bodo Barrett has always been pretty good. Yeah, there was certainly, I think it was 52, 16 a few years ago. I remember the one where Wayne Pivak was still in charge, where there was actually quite a lot of optimism. I think that would have been three years ago, and I think that one ended up being 50 points as well.

28:51And then you see, I mean, look, the Pumas are good, as we've been saying on this pod, but they then go and put 50 points on Wales as well. Like Wales have come to Twickenham and had plenty put on them by the box. I'm just really worried that where there has been sort of like tiny green shoots of optimism, they just get the flamethrower out and torch them all by just getting absolutely panned over the next two weekends.

29:13Alfie: You're absolutely right. I think everyone is expecting it to be incredibly one-sided. elsewhere this weekend Ireland South Africa we said on Monday's pod now that's a test match big test of where Ireland are at the moment as well this is absolutely fascinating this game isn't it because Ireland this narrative is building about Ireland getting a bit old and not looking that great and they put Australia away who I think we all agree look absolutely out on their feet and knackered and want to go home but if Andy Farrell's Ireland turned around on the weekend and beat the box who are by far the best team in the world, aren't they?

29:50There's a massive gap.

29:51Alfie: I think it's the big thing that's come out of the international rugby this year that it is now the Springboks and then the other sides. It's not kind of that time where it was the Springboks, France, Ireland, possibly New Zealand. They can all beat each other on their day kind of thing, yeah. And like, look, the box have lost games this year, but when they're on it and they want to win a game, they largely do. So if Ireland were to beat them, you'd go, oh, wow, that's changed everything. and now the six nations looks awesome as well because you look at that i mean just from maybe our perspective as people are covering them quite a lot that that middle game where england play island at wick and just go oh look at that awesome and it would be great anyway but then on the flip side the box have never under razzy won in dublin and they are talking all week being like this is one of the things we've not ticked off and again like a south african with a bee in the bonnet is not one you want to be facing so i i'm sort of looking at this a day out going i sort of expect springbox to win and i guess then it's the manner of it from the island perspective isn't it but if island were to win you just suddenly go well the world's flipped on its head again it's funny because i was chatting to an island fan this week and they were saying they were expecting them to get routinely beat like comfortably beaten really but then i still look at it and i think that is probably what will happen i back south africa to win but you don't entirely bet against ireland yet do you like i know they're a team that are on the slide lose at home they still got a group of players that okay they haven't been performing to the levels that we have seen them previously but you still think if it comes together on the day if the spring box have just one of those matches where they're not quite at that just total dominant force that we see so regularly then then who knows i do expect south africa to win but it's such an intriguing test and also alfie we know the world rugby offices are in dublin aren't they so they're going to come up with a way of sending of for Springboks, right?

31:39That's a fact.

31:40Alfie: That's what we've seen so far this November. For anyone listening here from South Africa, that was a joke. I find it really interesting that Andy Farrell has picked Sam Prendergast here as well. I mean, there's a big debate in Ireland between Jack Crowley and Sam Prendergast and Farrell reading Peter O 'Reilly's piece in The Times and defending Prendergast and what he can do. Defending his defending. Defending his defending. Yeah, exactly. But for this match, that's quite a big call. And surely the Springboks going to be looking at that and being like brilliant thank you so much that's a nice return to some uh Prendergast discourse because it was all the rage last year then it sort of went away

32:15Elgan: when he was ignored for the Lions team and then you know Crowley's played a few games for Island Fly Half I think the man who's in opposition to him is is interesting in that regard as well because you talk about all these young exciting fly halves and I feel like they've all just been blown away and completely by Sasha Feinberg and Gomez Ulu so it'll be interesting to see that matchup yeah how how Prendergast copes with with that occasion clearly he's got the the trust of Farrell but um yes he might look not yeah well he'll certainly be tested by every Springbok opposite him but especially Feinberg and Gomazuli with the season he's had I think that we've learned over the years with Razzi that you've got to be worried when he starts praising you and this week I read some quotes where he was a bit like oh he's looking he's looking good in defense actually Prendergast and you're like come on I know what you're doing I know what you're doing Razzi the worst for that was you're sending Peter Steff de Toye right down his channel at first up aren't

33:06Alfie: you that what that reminds me of is last year the game in cardiff actually between wales and the spring box and it was you know thumping defeat for wales and afterwards siya kalisi interviewed on tv and just they were just praising wales and we were in a tough spot in 2018 and all this and you just think that's a really bad sign when the opposition are actually praising you and trying to always this before it's like when pep guardiola goes like oh wow they gave us a real good go and it's yeah he always does it five nil yeah he always does it when he's played the teams that

33:33Elgan: getting relegated and they put six past them. On the subject of running down Prendergast's channel, this time, Esther Hazen is wearing the inside centre's replacement jersey. So he might come on at six if he has to, but also he'll just be running straight down that channel again after D 'Alendo's done it for a few minutes. This is a slight segue and we don't usually cover the Prem Rugby Cup on this pod when test matches are going on, but have you seen the Bath bench? Actually, I'll be honest, no, I haven't. So Jörn van Graan's gone for a 7-1, but he's put, who is it? Ted Hill. It's a 5-1-2. So five forwards, a back, and then back to two forwards, one of whom is the second hooker on the bench.

34:11So Kepo Tupolotti's in the 23 shirt and Ted Hill's in the 22 shirt. They've got a back in the 21 shirt and then all the other forwards.

34:17Elgan: One day there's finally going to be a deep dive on the ruck about substitution numberings because at some stage in the early 20th century, someone decided to switch it around and I have yet to decide why they did it. You're right about that because when I spoke to Kieran Bracken about 93 and beating New Zealand that day he got stamped on famously and warming up on the sideline was Matt Dawson and you can see clearly on the footage Matt Dawson's number is 18 which is now the tight head prop yeah like what what changed 97 lines back swore 16 17 18 there was there was a season in the early 21st century sorry we're going off tangent this is chapter inverse for me

34:52Alfie: Elgin the only thing that surprised me here is that you haven't written about this before there hasn't been a deep dive yet one day commission it next week there was some season early 21st century

35:00Elgan: where I think someone decided it. And then during the Six Nations, I think people were flitting back and forwards between backs and forwards in which order it was. I don't know why, but it happened. And now we've got such an established order that we can have conversations about, well, Esther Haston's wearing a Flankers replacement jersey now. Bring back letters, I say. But they did them differently, didn't they? You have written about this. Yeah, Leicester and Bristol had in different directions. So fullback would wear A for Bristol, but loose head prop was A for Leicester. Because obviously the famous ABC club in the front row for Leicester would have been the back three for Bristol.

35:36Elgan: But then I believe obviously the substitutes were the same but the backs and the forwards because you would have 15 to 9 and then 1 to 8 or 8. Anyway, I'll write about it one day, don't worry. I have written about it before.

35:46Alfie: I am confident in saying that you're not getting this anywhere else on any other rugby podcast. So you're welcome. The other thing with the bench splits that I wonder about is in 10, 15 years time, are we going to be looking back at this and saying that was the revolutionary era of rugby where all this stuff first came in? Or are we going to be looking back saying, God, do you remember that was weird when they all started messing around with it?

36:05Elgan: Well, I hope in 10 years' time we'll be looking at five replacements. That's my view.

36:09Alfie: Yeah, well, and that is a whole other can of worms. Finish us off then, chap. So we've also got Scotland Tonga on Sunday as well as England. You would imagine Scotland get back to winning ways after what has been... I mean, that's a proper no-win game, isn't it? Their November, in a lot of people's eyes, is done. I think a lot of the Scottish rugby public's eyes, They're expecting you to beat Tonga. They probably will beat Tonga, but the damage is done. You've also got Italy, Chile. Let's finish off. That's a cool one. That is a good game. But France, Australia, Elgin?

36:35Elgan: Again, it's another one similar with Scotland where they don't have a huge amount to gain France. There's already an air of malaise about this autumn campaign because they've lost to 14 Springboks, because they did not look particularly fluid in beating Fiji in Bordeaux. Everyone is just expecting them to beat Australia handsomely, even though France have been clicking, even though they're missing so many players with injury. I think what's more important for France is what happens the weekend after, which is where Antoine Dupont might be coming back for Toulouse. And obviously that changes their Six Nations entirely.

37:08Elgan: And he's going to improve every team he plays in. But I think France do just obviously look somewhat rudderless when he's not there. And since the World Cup, he's been absent a lot. Him and Antimac have played together on so few occasions in recent years. So hopefully we're looking at the Six Nations as them being back together long haul. Two points. You must now go to obviously see Dupont's first game back in Toulouse for the rugby man column, right? I don't see why not. Yeah, I mean, that's what the readers want to read, isn't it? I was there when Dupont returned. There you go. I've commissioned that.

37:40Thank you. I don't do the commissioning, but I want Elgin to go and do that. I was going to say congratulations on the editor role that you've got. No, but then the second thing I was going to add, which is it's probably unlikely to happen. but so December the 3rd not that far away is when we're going to get the World Cup draw and we're nearly there with where everyone's going to finish but there's a possible possible swing this weekend between France and Argentina France currently is sitting above Argentina in the rankings and they could flip which would put France into the middle tier

38:09Elgan: I think Australia have to win by 16 points or more and obviously Argentina beat England obviously we're not looking at that as a result that's likely but it is mathematically possible that yeah France could be in the second band and can you imagine that then that you get a world cup pool that has box and France in it for example it'd be great I mean as long as you're not in the group all the context of this is it's annoying because there's not really a group of deaf because one of the four are probably going out in most groups but there you go

38:40Alfie: there's another thing to think about over the weekend we'll cross that bridge when we get there but I already know that in two years time on the eve of the world cup I'm going to be sat here saying this is ridiculous. The pool stages have such a lack of jeopardy on them. But anyway, we'll leave that there. I think we've opened enough can of worms to last us the rest of the season on the pod. Thanks very much for listening. Enjoy all the rugby over the weekend. Elgin, pleasure as always. Good to have you back on. Thank you for having me. And Will, same as ever. Thank you. If I look tired on Sunday, it's because I've been watching a lot of cricket.

39:08Although it might end on day two and then we'll all have like a week and a half off.

39:12Alfie: Well, if you've got tickets for the fourth and fifth day in Perth, then you are thinking, brilliant, we'll make another plan, shall we 19 wickets day one buzz ball uh thanks very much for listening do send us an email if you want to uh following any of the rugby over the weekend the email address the ruck at the times.co.uk we'll see you next time here's a tip for you there's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer they tune in every week they trust the host and that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is, you just haven't been introduced yet.

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