Is an England v New Zealand final the best thing for the World Cup?

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1:20Alfie: Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. England are unbeaten as expected and we are into the Women's World Cup quarterfinals. We are into the knockout stages. So all of that and much more on the way. I'm Alfie Reynolds and Elgin Alderman. We are at Twickenham where at the end of September the Red Roses are going to be hoping to be crowned world champions.

1:44Elgan: How are you? I'm very well, yes. Had a lovely weekend in Brighton for two very enjoyable fixtures, England versus Australia. We'll get into how England were tested slightly more than usual on Saturday. And then Sunday, that sea of green, the Irish crowd that had descended upon Brighton, as well as plenty of New Zealand and Black Ferns jerseys as well. The Black Ferns really laying down a marker that, you know, can lightning strike for a sixth time, as I'm sure we'll discuss again in another possible England-New Zealand matchup at this stadium at Twickenham on September 27th.

2:14Alfie: Yeah, you know we're going to be speaking about all of that. We're also going to be chatting to the Managing Director of the Women's Rugby World Cup 2025, Sarah Massey. She's going to join us on the podcast and we'll finish up with the rugby championship as well. Another very intriguing round of fixtures there. But let's start off with England, Elgin. In the end, a 47-7 victory, a 40-point win for the Red Roses. If you didn't watch the game, you might look at that and say, well, business as usual for John Mitchell's side. But certainly for half an hour of that game, did we see proof that England can be troubled in this World Cup?

2:48Alfie: And then I suppose my next question off the back of that is, is there anyone that can trouble them for 80 minutes?

2:54Elgan: So that was the second 30 match winning sequence England have completed in the past six years. Of course, it would be a 61 match winning sequence if they hadn't lost the World Cup final in between. In this most recent 30 wins, there have probably been three games where they've been really tested in terms of a first half. There was that WXV game against Canada where they were trailing until the final quarter of the match. There was the Six Nations game against Ireland this year in which they were really struggling with what Ireland were offering in the first half. And then Australia perhaps troubled them for that first half an hour just as much, maybe more, than on those two previous instances where Australia's kicking game really put them under huge trouble.

3:36Elgan: They scored the opening try of the match. England were making all kinds of errors. We had someone like Ellie Kildun, reigning World Player of the Year, had one of her most off days in a Red Roses jersey, really. And Australia really had them in trouble in that opening half an hour. The problem was that the Wallaroos just weren't quite able to keep going in that way for the full 80 minutes, which is where England do separate themselves from most of the other teams in the world. But for half an hour, it was a reminder that even though they've won 30 games in a row, there is some fallibility there and there is possibly some vincibility within the invincibility thus far.

4:13Alfie: Yeah, and speaking of New Zealand, so Jemima Estabrook emailed theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Thank you, Jemima. And she said, Dear The Ruck, despite England being ranked number one in the world, is not enough being made of the fact that New Zealand are the reigning world champs and historically know how to go all the way, whereas England historically fall short to New Zealand in the final. I'm a hopeful, fully supportive Red Roses fan, but I'm concerned with the lack of awareness and commentary on this. And this is off the back, Elgin, of New Zealand beating Ireland, that final game in Pool C, which we gave the big billing.

4:49Alfie: It ended up the Black Ferns winning 14-0. Did we see New Zealand flex their muscles for the first time in this Women's Rugby World Cup?

4:57Elgan: The looming threat of the Black Ferns has been there throughout the entirety of the pool stages thus far. Sunday was the moment where we saw manifest just how threatening they are. And we have been trailing towards the possibility of an England-New Zealand final here at Twickenham, not just because they are the two most iconic teams in the women's game. And the women's Rugby World Cup history has been defined by the matches between those two teams. And New Zealand have won all five finals between the sides. that's why I said can lightning strike for a sixth time because even though the Black Ferns can be a bit wobbly in between World Cups lose to Ireland 29-27 lose to England by 30-40 point margins as has happened before they just have a habit certainly in recent years of being able to cram for finals and they have so much raw talent that when they spend a bit of time together when they focus their minds on a World Cup it's almost as if they turn up and just think this is this is to win doesn't matter that England have won at the time 27 in a row now 30 in a row this is where the Blackburns shine and some of the attacking play against Ireland like I say they turned a 29-27 defeat 12 months ago into a 40-0 win so that's the swing they've gone through already they they showed that they can cause anyone trouble on their day and if it gets to a final against England

6:18Alfie: there'll be plenty of danger there and to be fair to you Elgin you have been saying that consistently that yes England are the heavy favourites here but never write off the Black Ferns particularly when it comes to a World Cup final do you think it would be a disappointment if we don't get that as a final which I don't mean as any disrespect to any of the teams remaining in this Women's World Cup but do you think the best thing for this World Cup in 2025 is the Black Ferns against the Red Roses at Twickenham to decide who wins it all?

6:44Elgan: I do think it is I have a real soft spot for Canada as a rugby nation and their women's team despite dealing with an almost completely amateur set-up having to fundraise money towards their World Cup campaign, ranked number two in the world. They've beaten the Black Ferns. They've given England a really good go, as I've mentioned in previous WXV competitions. As much as I would love to see Canada go all the way to a final, it does feel like just because of that history, just because three years ago it was New Zealand who beat England and ended that 30-match unbeaten run, it does just feel like that would be the ending, that the story of, as England fans want, England going all the way, winning a World Cup, possibly against New Zealand in Twickenham, banishing the caveat that 11 years ago when England won the World Cup, it was Ireland that did for New Zealand and they never had to beat the Black Ferns in that tournament.

7:37Elgan: That would feel like, for the Red Roses, the most complete journey to the end. And it would be, like I say, the match that has defined the history of the Women's Rugby World Cup.

7:47Alfie: Yeah, I totally agree. I think it would be awesome if that was a final. It would be such a great event here at Twickenham. Is it going to be a sellout? Well, we'll get to our guest in just a moment. We'll also speak more about the Red Roses in a little while as well. Some injury updates from their camp. End of the pool stages, Elgin. So we're into the knockouts. But you've covered Women's Rugby World Cups before. You were in New Zealand three years ago because it was delayed because of COVID from 2021 to 2022. How special has it felt for you actually being in the stadiums at this World Cup? Because not just the England games, by the way, we've seen really healthy attendances in Exeter, in York, at Franklin's Gardens, up in Sunderland, of course, all over the place.

8:28Elgan: I think simply the fact that we've almost taken for granted that the weekend just gone, there were 30 ,000 people in the stadium in Brighton on Saturday and Sunday, which even three or four years ago, that would have just been a mind boggling thing to have happened. for it to happen twice on successive days over a weekend and for it not to be the biggest attendance at this World Cup it will be by the end of the tournament not even the top two attendances of this World Cup the difference between this World Cup and the last one in New Zealand was it was a real slow burn up until that Eden Park final the semi-finals were great and there was some interest in that but it took a long time for New Zealand when they realized that the Black Ferns could actually win the tournament it took a time to get there whereas this one has obviously started off the back of the Red Roses already having standalone matches at Twickenham that big almost 43 ,000 at Sunderland on the opening night the double 30 in Brighton the good crowds in Exeter which we've seen as well down at Sandy Park we're expecting decent crowds in Bristol at Ashton Gate for the two quarterfinals and the two semifinals there as well so while we are not quite yet we're getting to the stage where there's real knockout jeopardy and the big four are possibly converging on the semi-final as we've thought all along.

9:46Elgan: The first few weeks have been a great fiesta, festival of rugby. We've seen people delighted at Samoa kicking a penalty and Bianca Silva scoring a 70-metre solo try for Brazil, celebrated as if they'd won the whole tournament. We've gone through the fiesta build-up and now we're getting to the stage almost where the best will be playing the best and it will not just be a celebration of the game at large, but also potentially some cracking close rugby games between the best teams in the world.

10:13Alfie: Yeah, it's been brilliant so far and let's hope it continues. We'll be chatting more about the quarterfinals. We'll also get on to Fiji. Massive win for them against Wales on the weekend in just a moment. But next up, Elgin and I have a chat with the Managing Director for the Women's Rugby World Cup, Sarah Massey. Well, Sarah, welcome on to The Ruck. Thanks so much for your time. How are you doing? I'm good and thanks for inviting me. It's great to be here. No, it's our pleasure. I feel like the vibe here today has kind of been, can't believe we're at the end of the pool stages already. has it been a total blur for you?

10:45It's just been incredible right from the start. I mean, yeah, it's hard to believe that, you know, we're here. We're saying farewell to eight teams. We're saying farewell to five different venues. I mean, each one of them has brought their flair, their personality, you know, their celebration, their joy, their noise. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's just been incredible across the board. And yeah, saying farewell to them, but obviously looking ahead to what we've got coming up this weekend.

11:07Alfie: Well, we've just been speaking about that. It felt like the weekend, particularly in Brighton, I know every host city has put their own stamp on it and we've seen great attendances all across the country but Brighton in particular felt like just such a successful weekend such a great weekend for this competition yeah I mean I was lucky enough to be in Brighton for both those matches this weekend and yeah I mean even just you know traveling in and seeing the fan zones you know queues outside the fan zones before we'd even opened them and then just seeing how many people were coming through celebrating you know enjoying what the fan zone had got to offer before the match and then going on to the venue and then And obviously, you know, afterwards, you know, having a good old party with the DJs and the entertainment that we had there.

11:43But I think that's just been the joyous thing is, you know, people are coming into the cities. The cities have done an amazing, amazing job bringing their cities to life and really making sure that they're engaging the whole time with the communities. You know, I just loved walking around Brighton and listening to people in the shops just sort of saying, oh, you're going to the rugby end. It's a rugby world cup. And just how it's just captured imaginations is incredible. And now you're right. I mean, Brighton was just a very special. It was one weekend. I think that also helped is people just coming and know, OK, Brighton for one weekend, off we go.

12:12And, you know, we saw over 100 ,000 people across all of our venues this weekend. And obviously the over 60 ,000 in Brighton itself.

12:20Elgan: What have you learned about the demographics of the people that have been attending matches from the sort of surveys after games? You know, a lot of children, a lot of new audiences, the people that haven't come to rugby games before. Yeah, so we do the surveys after each match. And it's also to help us learn and help us inform for the next matches what we know, what we can improve, what people are saying, what parts of the experience they're liking and what may be, you know, some things that we can support on. I mean, we know that 30 percent of people that are coming to the matches have never been to a women's rugby match before.

12:48So we know how many new audiences we're attracting into it. We know that over 40 percent of people are bringing children and bringing their families with them. So that whole, you know, our whole mission right from the start was to make sure that this tournament was accessible as possible. you know and that was obviously taking it around the country but also even from a ticket pricing point of view making sure that you know we were making it um accessible for as many people to come and experience it as we have done i think you know one of the things is all of the work that the bbc have done around the summer of women's sport they've you know they've really helped amplify everything that we've been doing that brought it to a whole new audience right from the very start and it's just sort of ramped up and the momentum has just built from there but yeah we know from our survey that 90 of the people that are going to matches would definitely go and experience and want to experience another women's rugby match again so that's only good for the future globally because not only have we had people from around the country here we've had obviously some international visitors as well and how have the viewing figures been has that been

13:44Alfie: also something that's surpassed expectations yeah i mean we've seen we've seen huge uh viewing figures globally uh we've had up until now just under 25 million people viewing uh viewing hours of our broadcast uh in the uk alone we've seen some big peak numbers of audiences in france so 3.9 million on tf watching tf1 watching uh the french team at the weekend so yeah it's been it's been across the board it's been audiences and attendances in the venue but it's also been viewership off the venue when we've had you know a huge number of 205 million social views of our videos uh across our platforms as well so it you know it's everywhere and how has it been for you to kind of see that come to life because you've been working on this for a long time and then it suddenly arrives and it's delivering are you able to enjoy it or is it all still incredibly stressful as the tournament's going on I mean you know getting to the first match I mean that was you know we getting to that first weekend of matches we were we were opening five different venues in in one weekend I mean all I can say is it I'm just so incredibly proud of the team that's been working on it you know the partnership that we've had with England rugby and with UK sport with I mean our cities and venues have just massively stepped up there's been so much commitment and investment from then within the cities but yeah I guess from from my point of view you know this this has been a journey that started two and a half years ago when we sat down and said what's our ambition how bold do we want to be and you know what size venues can we go to you know how much how many tickets do we think we're going to sell and so I would say we were really ambitious from the start we you know we we absolutely backed ourselves that we could create something that was going to be as spectacular as it is and showcase women's rugby to the world but yeah I guess from a personal perspective it's yeah it's been a two and a half years of working on this for world rugby and and all of the expertise and experience they bring from from all the world cups and other events that they run but I think you know this one's been special it's been it's been very much um geared towards this is a women's world cup so we've always tried to do things a bit differently and not do a carbon copy of what of what the men's rugby world cups have done we've brought in you know a whole new flavor to it but yeah incredibly proud and is Is that something that's quite unique as well to, I suppose, this World Cup?

15:52Alfie: And you've worked across different sports, different big events in athletics and world championships and that sort of thing. What for you has been particularly unique, I suppose, about the Women's Rugby World Cup 2025? It's the fact that we've been able to do things a bit differently and we've been given the freedom to do that. And we've been given just the freedom to try and do things and challenge things, not in a challenging way, but also just how can we make this better? How can we make sure that what we're doing is attracting the new audiences that we want to bring? Yes, we could have put on a carbon copy, but we didn't want to do that.

16:25We wanted to do it differently. I mean, there's so many different examples. The content creators that are embedded with each of the teams, all that behind the scenes footage has just been magical. And that has meant that the players have felt that they can showcase their personalities. They can celebrate their individualities, both as a personality, as a person, and also surrounded by the team. So that's been something that has been very very different not not been done before um you know the fact that we have a new trophy you know we wanted to make sure that this one reflected the prestige and excellence of of what we wanted to try and show to the world and and therefore a new trophy was was created um because that's what we wanted the symbolic and iconic uh photographs to to show just what we

17:06Elgan: wanted to to make from this you touched upon the cities we've been at thus far we're about to say hello to bristol as well for the quarterfinals and some of the semifinals going back to exeter to how are the the ticket sales looking for the the knockout rounds thus far so we've obviously got four quarterfinals happening uh this weekend so we're heading for a sellout for the quarterfinal on the sunday in bristol obviously that was that's the uh the england versus scotland match the other three we're seeing tickets going all the time and selling all the time as people know who's in those matches and they want to come and watch the those teams play i think you know i would say my message to fans would be don't miss out because those tickets are selling out and you know we will have great atmospheres and inside that stadium and come and join the joy and and the noise and and just the whole the whole atmosphere around it and for

17:51Alfie: the final are we still tracking for hopefully a sellout here yeah the final we're absolutely heading for a sellout I mean every time that we you know we can put tickets back on sale they are selling people put them on the resale the official resale site they are being snapped up I think you know maybe at the beginning people thought they would be able to just buy a ticket for the women's rugby world cup final at Twickenham because it was such a big venue but that is absolutely not going to be the case so we encourage everyone to get out if they want to catch the women's rugby world cup don't don't wait and think you'll get one at the final come to the quarterfinals come to the semi-finals in bristol that's going to be a great great venue that we open up this weekend and they're putting loads into it they can't wait to get started and just going off on a bit of a tangent from there something that was mentioned in the press conference about uh fake tickets has been something at this world cup i want to be absolutely clear before i ask this question that sort of thing is really terrible if it happens to people and you don't want to see it happen but in a weird way go with me on this is it also a reflection of the increase in popularity in women's rugby and in this world cup I'm not saying it's a good thing but it is almost a sign that we're really seeing something quite exciting here in terms of the development of the game yeah I mean I agree yeah it's not a it's not a good thing but yeah it's just showing showing the interest that those sites that you know would normally just be putting you know men's football and other men's sports trying to sell on their site.

19:05We are now seeing that they are. We encourage every single fan not to buy off any of those sites, to only buy off the official ticket sites and obviously our official resale site. But yeah, I think that it's one of those things that shows, as you said, shows the popularity and just shows where this sport has got to over a really, really, really short space of time.

19:24Alfie: And one final thing I want to ask is something, again, which is different about this World Cup is we've seen it go from 12 teams at the last edition to 16 teams. Yes, there's been discussions, and Elgin, we've spoken about it on the pod, of one-sided scorelines. But do you think you've reached the right amount of teams? Like 16 feel like the right amount for a Women's World Cup. Despite the one-sided scorelines, whether it's Samoa or Spain or Brazil, they've still really contributed in a great way to this World Cup. Yeah, and I think, as you say, we've talked about it. I mean, every team is at a different stage in their development.

19:54But I don't think that anyone expected those teams to bring what they have done to the tournament. I think that is really what has set this apart. And the fact that the crowd are just as happy cheering every single time, literally every turnover, every try, every single point that those teams have scored, the crowd is right behind them. And when you're in those stadiums and you feel that, the noise just continues. Either it's people scoring and the fans are loving scoring, seeing the tries, or it's points or turnovers when any of those teams have had the ball. So I think they've massively contributed to the spirit of this whole tournament.

20:28and yeah it's sad and it's sad to see them go home but you know what they've experienced and the messages that we've had from those teams about what it has meant to them and what it has meant to every single woman and you know woman and girl back in their country and just that they've tasted what what you know what professional tournaments can provide makes them only more hungry to come back you know and keep working on what they're doing and come back so yeah i mean i'm sure world rugby will always be looking at you know what's the optimum number of teams to have in each of their tournaments but you know we absolutely got it right for this one well sarah

20:56Alfie: We really appreciate your time on the ruck. Thank you so much and all the best for the rest of the competition as we head into the knockouts. Thanks very much.

21:09Alfie: This week on the Business Podcast, episode one of Power Struggle, the first in our summer miniseries on energy. We're talking about the frailty of the UK electricity grid. We're dealing with tropical like temperatures in a country that has infrastructure that largely wasn't built for that. Join me, Hannah Previtt. And me, Dominic O 'Connell, for weekly conversations from the world of business and entrepreneurship. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts or find our channel on YouTube by searching Times Business. Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved.

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22:19Alfie: So Elgin, let's round up some of the other big storylines, the results from the final weekend of pool fixtures. I suppose on Australia for just a moment, we spoke about England. They lost, but they didn't lose by such a large margin. That means they are into the quarterfinals. And actually for the Wallaroos, kind of my main reflection from the game was actually fair play for that first half, which we've spoken about how much they troubled England. But that has literally got them into a quarterfinal, hasn't it? Because it was tight in the first half. Yes, England ran away with it in the end, but that was absolutely pivotal for them in getting themselves into the knockouts.

22:54Elgan: Yeah, we were all talking about mathematical swings of 135 points in the build-up. The fact that USA beat Samoa 60-0 meant that Australia knew they just had to limit the damage to under 75 points. Of course, they were talking in the build-up that we're going into this match to win, as you would expect them to do. But reality, it was a case of just getting under 75. And in the end, they got nowhere near just a 40-point margin. They did more than enough to make to the quarterfinals, which was their aim. That has to be viewed as a success for them, really, because for a lot of these teams that are outside of the big four of England, New Zealand, Canada and France, getting to the quarterfinal was a marker of success and then just seeing what happens in an unlikely win thereafter.

23:39Elgan: So the Wallaroos have done what they wanted to do. It's Canada next, ranked number two in the world. So people aren't expecting them to win that game, but they've done for now as much as they wanted to and as much as people expected them to.

23:51Alfie: And the result of the weekend, without question, was Wales 25, Fiji 28. Fiji's first victory over Northern Hemisphere opposition. Yes, there is the story of Wales, which we've been speaking about every week on the pod here, about kind of where they find themselves. But amazing moment for Fiji.

24:12Elgan: we talk on this podcast about how what has been so hugely disappointing for wales is just that lack of ability to to break a game open to conjure something special and that is just what fiji have as their bread and butter they just offload in in the style that we expect the men's team to like we often talk about how certain countries just seem to have a dna that flows through their rugby we see the japan women's team playing a similar style to the japan men's team we see the fiji women's team the fijiana chuck the ball about in the great traditions of the way that we expect of the men's team as well and some of the tries they score were thrilling and a 28-25 win was was all that they deserved in that game like say another third week in a row of just saying how hugely disappointing Wales have been going out without a win it's just been after all the hope before that Scotland game it's just been a terrible World Cup for them yeah they go back to the drawing board

25:02Alfie: if we bring it back on to England injury updates for England ahead of the quarterfinals the big one being Ellie Kildan?

25:08Elgan: We know that Ellie Kildan will miss the quarterfinal. She's on a 12-day stand down after a pretty nasty head knock during that game against Australia. So it wasn't even a case of a failed HIA. It was just a sort of instant removal and 12-day stand down as a result, which opens up the prospect of a bit of a dilemma over who England will pick at fullback. As we've spoken before, they have two options in just about every position of good players. Ellie Kildan perhaps hasn't played as well in this tournament as her reputation suggests that she would if she is the reigning world player of the year that's not to say she's played badly at all but in that australia game she did have a particular off day prior to that injury so they're hoping that she'll be back for the for a prospective semi-final but as for now we'll we'll see who they pick to win

25:54Alfie: number 15 against scotland on sunday which i suppose it is out of either emma singh or helena

26:02Elgan: Roland yes they're probably the the two first choices for for that backup to Ellie Kildan the it comes down to Emma Singh being a out and out fullback and so you might think they would opt for her what I would say is that Emma wore 15 against France in the Six Nations Decider when Ellie Kildan was absent for that match and she she had a difficult day you know she's new in her international career she she hasn't played anywhere near as many games as as Ellie has what I do think Emma perhaps suffers from the international game is that she's almost made her reputation in domestic rugby off her goal kicking and when she plays for England she isn't guaranteed to be doing that and I think if you take that away it does perhaps weaken the the prospect of her playing the other option being Helena Rowland now a big bugbear of mine is when you have players that are real versatile utility backs and it almost means they get banished from potential starting positions as a result.

26:57Elgan: Helena Rowland is the perfect number 23 for England because she can cover everything from 10 to 15 and has even been training as the fourth choice scrum half but she would be an absolutely she'd be a very exciting choice to start at 15 and I think for that reason I would like to see Helena given an opportunity to show what she can do with her running game you know she played wing against Spain in a warm-up and scored a hat trick so she's not only someone who can run the show from 10 she can come forward from 15 as that playmaker she's a great attacking runner in her own right so I think that would be a really exciting option to have Helena at 15.

27:30Alfie: So I do just wonder whether her versatility means she's going to be the 23 and we see Emma Singh start do you think when it boils down to say a World Cup final for example let's say where we're stood now at the end of the month it's England against New Zealand as many people expect Helena Rowland we think is the 23 do you think there's any place for Emma Singh in that matchday squad because of her goal kicking and if you've got a game that is absolutely tight a world cup final at home in front of 82 000 people do you need to find space for her because she is your best goal kicker and i will make a counterpoint to my own argument which is that england's goal kicking has actually been very good at this world cup so maybe not i think

28:06Elgan: if you have everyone available then she wouldn't be in the 23 only because obviously you've got zoe harrison fly half you've got holly atchison pushing zoe harrison for fly half but possibly being in the number 22 jersey who can cover 10 and 12 then you've got helena roland as well in the number 23 jersey, covering every position in the back line, and also fresh off 11 out of 14 off the tee against Samoa, some of them from right out wide. It was an excellent kicking performance. So I think it's unlikely you will see Emma Singh in a World Cup final unless there are injuries that bring that about.

28:37Alfie: OK, so the quarterfinal line-up, New Zealand against South Africa, Canada, Australia, France, Ireland and England, Scotland. Elgin, there is a good chance that if the favoured teams in all of those games go through, which would be New Zealand, Canada, France and England. We're going to have the same semi-finalists as we had at the last World Cup. Do you think that is likely or do you think we could be seeing a shock in there this weekend? I think so.

29:02Elgan: I think perhaps the best chance of an upset would have been France v Ireland. But you do wonder, just based off last weekend's performance, if they're able to get themselves back up for that, whether France have been growing nicely into the tournament with the return of Pauline Bourdain-Saint-Souce at scrum half after she missed the first few games through suspension and the warm-ups prior to that as well and the start of the tournament so I think that's where you're maybe looking at the closest match but I still think France would come out on on top in that one they expect obviously the Black Ferns to beat South Africa quite convinced see what's so interesting about that game is it's on the same day as All Blacks v Springbok so there's a double New Zealand South Africa match that is perhaps the greatest matchup in men's international rugby only the second time the women have ever played each other the last one was 15 years ago at the world cup so that springbok women have are so early in their journey really that they just don't play the blackburns very often so that will be interesting to see just those two famous jerseys coming up against each other blackburns huge favorites but for rugby observers that'll be very interesting to watch yeah it's amazing

30:08Alfie: that it's only the second time they've played one another the team i fancy off the back of the weekend is Australia to upset Canada even though Canada are second in the world I just feel like if you're part of the Wallaroos camp there you look at that first half an hour against England I think you take a huge amount of encouragement from that I really do I just wonder whether that could be the the shock we get this weekend but we'll wait and see you're going to be in Bristol probably a fair chunk of this week and then of course at the weekend yeah I'll be in Bristol

30:32Elgan: obviously the big one as Sarah Massey said England Scotland sold out to Ashton Gate on Sunday of course we're talking about this as if it's a foregone conclusion scotland will be galvanized for this one we if they can perform like they did against wales in the opening round try and put england under pressure and who knows what happens but obviously they've had plenty of opportunities to try and do that in recent years and haven't quite managed which is why everyone is expecting that england will go on a 31st successive win which will break the run that they had the world record run that they had prior to the last world cup final that's why we're expecting that to be the case but we'll see how scotland do you know home crowd in england um you know they'll they'll they'll feel like they've got nothing to lose taking on the mighty red roses yeah they'll

31:16Alfie: relish that challenge no doubt next up we will finish off by chatting about the rugby championship over the weekend which was another absolutely blockbuster couple of fixtures

31:30Alfie: okay elgin on to the madness of the wallabies against the pumas ending in just a moment but Let's start with the All Blacks and Springboks. New Zealand 24, South Africa 17. After all the build-up in the week, after all the chat ahead of this one, Eden Park and that record still stands for the All Blacks.

31:48Elgan: Yeah, and you have to say they were good value for it. A lot of people who I'd spoke to on the weekend who hadn't seen the match, they said, was it fair value, the scoreline of 24-17 for how the match unfolded? I think it was because New Zealand were ahead for that whole game and were very much on top of it until the Springboks had a bit of a second half revival. So they were absolutely fair game for it. The match won by Ardy's surveyors, turnover saying, this is my house, or a variance on that phrase. I can't remember the exact phrase he said, but as they secured that win, yes, what's it now?

32:20Elgan: 31 years since they lost to Eden Park against the try from the end of the world for France in 1994. It's an astonishing record. We talk about the Red Roses and winning records. That's an astonishing one to have never lost at a particular stadium for 31 years. And yeah, it just, obviously, we've got this back-to-back fixture now. We'll see how the Springboks, if they can get their revenge next weekend.

32:40Alfie: See, I think if anything, in terms of was it a fair scoreline, was no, it's not, because New Zealand should have won more comfortably, which maybe brings us on to the Springboks, who I think are fascinating at the moment. And I feel like this South Africa team are one of those teams that if we've learned anything over the previous two World Cups is write them off at your peril. And given the quality of the team, and Razzy Erasmus has already named the team to play this coming weekend you look at the team sheet they're absolutely good enough to go and win this weekend and maybe silence a lot of critics but I do think based off what we've seen in the rugby championship at least those two test matches against Australia one test match okay it's at Eden Park against New Zealand this South Africa team is not playing well at the moment and it does lead you to at least begin to question whether they are in quite a serious rebuild I think in terms of where this team's development is you do wonder

33:28Elgan: or whether perhaps they've almost distracted themselves by their own two successive World Cup wins. All the talk about them tends to be about the innovations, the line-outs in the middle of the field, which you don't actually have to do that to set up a mall in the midfield. As we've spoken before, I've seen Ireland with Paul O 'Connell do it just on the ground normally. It's almost like window dressing to show that they're thinking of new ways to do things. You do wonder if they've perhaps been distracted by their own desire to try new things in the sport, when maybe now for a period of time go back to basics and go back to what makes South African teams so difficult to beat which is just huge grunt work up front and just smashing teams into

34:07Alfie: into obliteration well I thought that's what they were going to do against New Zealand particularly after the win against the Wallabies I thought they're going to strip it back Pollard was the 10 they're going to kick a lot they're going to base it off their set piece their scrum was still pretty decent but their their line out hasn't been good in this rugby championship and yeah I just wonder whether we are at a point where you're going to start seeing a number of turnover and maybe some of those players that have been absolute staples of the back-to-back World Cups and new players come into the team which is something they've been so good at doing in the previous World Cup cycle but certainly the performance at least at the moment I think for the Springboks is a massive concern let's talk about the Wallabies though Wallabies 28 Argentina 24 clock in the red penalty to draw or kick to the corner Elgin I was thinking take the draw live to fight another day who knows what's going to happen.

34:54Alfie: It's such an even rugby championship. I think this year, you'll still be in a pretty good spot, but fair play. Harry Wilson and those Wallabies kick to the corner. A couple of penalties later, a couple of phases later, a couple of different attacks later. They go over for the winning try. An amazing end to that game.

35:08Elgan: It's certainly been an astonishing revival since that third Lions test for the Wallabies. There were talks about how they were being written off utterly as a rugby nation, full stop, especially after that limp performance in the first test. But since then, we've seen them go toe-to-toe with the Lions in the second test. beat them in that third test, and then that astonishing win from behind against the Springboks, and now another one against Argentina. I mean, again, a word for Argentina, who in patches, when they score those brilliant long-range team scores, it just really gets the heart rate up for any neutral observer to watch Argentina in full flow, but not quite able to win the match in the end.

35:45Elgan: And it means that the rugby championship is just brilliantly poised with it feeling at the moment like anyone can beat anyone on any given day.

35:51Alfie: Did you last week on the pod or maybe the week before describe Argentina as the new France in that the cliche is you don't know what you're going to get from them each week, which isn't true for France anymore. But actually, I think it's pretty accurate for this Argentina team.

36:05Elgan: Well, we'll see. They could put 60 on Australia next week and you just simply don't know. The fact it's in Australia alters that slightly. But we did see the previous year where they lost the first game by one and then won the next one by 40 odds. And that's the fun aspect of these doubleheader back-to-backs means that you do see instances like that. But, you know, the Wallabies will be favourites going into another home game against him next weekend. But again, Argentina, with those thrilling backs out wide, are able to conjure things from anywhere at any moment.

36:33Alfie: I also think that the kicking for the corner for the Wallabies and then Harry Wilson's reaction where you don't have to be a particularly good lip reader to be able to tell kind of what he was saying of G-ing up the team, of let's go for it, essentially. absolutely speaks to the belief and the togetherness and just the spirit in this Wallabies team which I think we have massively seen they were questioned on the Lions tour I think absolutely rightly so after the first test I think they were poor in Brisbane but since that point I think they've answered a lot of questions and I think there are so many Wallabies teams in the past that might have kicked to the corner there and not been able to execute but this team you feel like they're on a massive upwards trajectory which makes it even more interesting that Joe Schmidt is going to apart and Les Kiss come in.

37:17Elgan: If they had gone for a penalty for a draw it would have made me think back to the 2005 Ashes where England knew they had Australia on the ropes because they were celebrating a draw that's when that's when you know you've got Australia down when they are taking a draw and celebrating it they they went for that win and you know it paid off bravery paid off for them on that occasion.

37:34Alfie: Well another cracking round of the rugby championship I think suggestions that it could be the best edition that we've ever seen is really living up to it at the moment. Let's see what happens this coming weekend. We'll talk about it all on next week's podcast as we will. The quarterfinals in the Women's Rugby World Cup. Does it feel, Elgin, like we are rattling through the competition at a rate of knots or do you feel you're about where you should be at this point in the go of things?

37:59Elgan: The first week, you know, John Mitchell said this from the playing side as well, that first week before Sunderland went at a snail's pace as we waited for it to begin, as we waited for all the predictions of a huge moment for women's rugby to happen. And we've now seen that manifest over the last three weeks. The quarterfinals, as we've touched upon, still might be for one side, not necessarily one sided fixtures, but fixtures that aren't two, three point thrillers. We've been wrong before. And as we've seen, there have been some upsets in this tournament thus far. But I think once we get to those semifinals, which is where the tournament really came alive three years ago in terms of a competitive spectacle, if we have those big four teams still in the tournament, as we think, that'll be when the rugby itself really takes hold as two ding-dong encounters.

38:48Alfie: Looking forward to it. We will chat about it all on next week's pod. If you want to send us an email, the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Give us your views on the Red Roses and how they're tracking to hopefully win a home World Cup. Appreciate you listening. We'll be back with you next week.

39:10Alfie: This week on The Business Podcast, episode one of Power Struggle, the first in our summer mini-series on energy. We're talking about the frailty of the UK electricity grid. We're dealing with tropical-like temperatures in a country that has infrastructure that largely wasn't built for that. Join me, Hannah Previtt. And me, Dominic O 'Connell, for weekly conversations from the world of business and entrepreneurship. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts or find our channel on YouTube by searching Times Business. While every other channel is fighting for your customer's attention, podcasts are where they've already given it.

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