Is anyone good enough to stop a French Grand Slam?

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1:17hello this is the ruck the journalists rugby podcast from the times and the sunday times coming to you after round two of the six nations over the weekend as always loads to get into and And as always, back in studio. I'm Alfie Reynolds with me in the building, Charlie Morgan once again. Hi, Charlie.

1:34Charlie Morgan: Hi, pal. Thanks for having me. No, you don't need to say thank you. Always a pleasure, Charlie. Fresh from a trip to Edinburgh, we were both up there for the Calcutta Cup. A man that was in Cardiff for the Wales-France game is Elgin Olderman. All right, Elgin? Very well, thank you. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. Loads to unpick. There's always loads to unpick. We know that. And also, down the line with us today, back on the ruck actually for the first time in a long, long time. I'm delighted to say that David Walsh is with us. Hi, David. Hi, Avi. Look, lads, there's so much to try and unpick, I think, from any round in the Six Nations.

2:06I guess a really general one, first of all, what impact did the weekend have on the championship? And this links to a question that Will Kelleher posed from the stands at Murrayfield in the podcast we did post-match after Scotland's win. Has this weekend revealed that you've got France that are so way out in front of everyone else? Wales that are way down the bottom and then you've got those four middle teams that actually are

2:29Charlie Morgan: really densely packed together I think France certainly looks strong I've always fancied that the England will go there on the on the final day with a plan we now know what height Scotland can kind of raise themselves to so them having France at home means I'd certainly think that there's a hell of a lot on that game and potential for Scotland to kick on I think if I was going to take one lesson it's potentially that this is a really really kind of well-worn boxing kind of cliche but the styles make fights thing the fact that scotland can just so continually put together a game plan that gives england so many issues it's just a really it's a really interesting wrinkle of of this championship and yeah and i'd package that in with how impressed i was with italy again actually yeah those those two things yeah i think my main takeaway from last

3:17Elgan Alderman: weekend was that it was a great weekend for the neutral because you had Italy really giving Ireland a go in a way that we haven't seen them do in Dublin for almost 30 years since before the Six Nations era you had that Calcutta Cup match with Scotland winning I know a lot of people didn't predict that they would win but a lot there was always this inherent sense that they might just pull something out the bag after losing in Rome and then Sunday was a very different joy for the neutral obviously it was you know just another galling defeat for Wales but I think there was a lot of talk about value for money in the stadium on Sunday but if you just loved watching rugby and watching that France team play like that where the best bet of Wales getting back into the game looked like if France ran so much they tired themselves out and they couldn't move anymore.

3:58Charlie Morgan: As in the chat in the stadium was people saying this isn't value for money.

4:01Elgan Alderman: Well, just beforehand because of the tickets it was the lowest Six Nations crowd in Cardiff other than a COVID game. So it was just under 80 % full. But if they were marketing tickets they should have just said this is your chance to see Antoine Dupont the match of Jalibert and a potential France Grand Slam winning team. I think we think of this France team as having underperformed. They've won 18 of their past 22 Six Nations matches, which shows how much potential they have because 18 wins out of 22 and it feels like they haven't performed as well as they should have. Currently, they are performing in Grand Slam form.

4:35Elgan Alderman: So we'll see what the next three weekends have in store. David, what did you make of it? We spoke very briefly in the press conference room at Murrayfield after the game and you quickly said well that we've had a great day particularly with the match between Ireland and Italy as well what are your thoughts overall on round two and where it leaves this year's Six Nations? The thing that strikes me about the championship so far it's like it's been a reaffirmation of what makes this championship so popular amongst rugby enthusiasts and I would say even sports enthusiasts I imagine there are lots and lots of people who only watch the Six Nations.

5:12That's the only rugby they see. At the beginning of the tournament, there really was a sense that the way the fixtures were lined up, we were going to have an England-France game in Paris, potentially for the Grand Slam. And a lot of people were looking forward to that. And if it had played out like that, we would have all have said, wonderful. But it's actually even more wonderful that it's not set in stone, that Scotland can come out and do what they did. And for me, what they did was that they reminded us that they still remain a very decent team, especially at Murrayfield. But I also thought that it was a check on our kind of presumptions about the England team.

5:53Because of, you know, the team had won 12 consecutive games, had beaten New Zealand very convincingly after giving them a 12-point start at Twickenham almost, had beaten Australia very convincingly and had beaten France last year at Twickenham. We had thought that maybe England were further forward in their development than they are. What Scotland did was to say, hold on guys, have another look at England and maybe you will come back with a more realistic view of where they're at now. I thought it was a real kind of a... A wake-up call is a bit harsh, but it was a kind of a reminder to us to look at our assumptions about England and ask again.

6:37Having said that, England will go to Paris and France may well be going for a Grand Slam if they can survive Murrayfield and beat Italy this weekend. But I wouldn't for a second think that England go there without a chance. For that last game, I would regard England as having a really decent chance of beating France. And I think the last thing I'd like to say about the Six Nations so far is that what France have done has been really refreshing. The way they're playing rugby now, it's almost like they've said, we're not that interested in beating people up anymore, overpowering them physically.

7:16We want to play the kind of rugby that is very attractive to watch. And I would argue that kind of rugby that France are playing, if it could be adopted worldwide, would give rugby a much better chance in the medium to the long term. I mean, there's a lot with the France thing, I suppose the counter argument to kind of parts of what we've been saying would be, are we in danger of a six nations where France just run away with it? and maybe actually this weekend if anything it's taught us that you expect England to rock up in Murrayfield and win for the first time in ages and they don't, Italy almost are able to do the job over Ireland the reason we love this competition as you've all said is because of the unpredictability because every year it throws up these kind of different storylines but is there a danger that this France team I mean Elgin you watch them on Sunday admittedly against Wales who we know are down the bottom of the pile at the moment but are they just too good for everyone else is the gap too wide?

8:14Elgan Alderman: I think they should win the Grand Slam, but I think we shouldn't yet suggest that they will win convincingly at Murrayfield, let alone that final round against England. I think in our pre-match predictions where we went up against AI, I think I suggested that I don't think they would get a four-try bonus point at Murrayfield and that it might be a bit of a dogfight. Now, the way they've been playing, maybe we should suggest that they should absolutely be getting four tries every time they play. But I think what history shows us is that I remember in 2021 when Wales almost won that Grand Slam that was referred to as the Grand Jam because how jamily they look like they might do it.

8:50Elgan Alderman: As if a suggestion that only fitting Grand Slams are when they wipe the floor with everyone. But history shows us I think there's been maybe one Grand Slam in the entire history of this competition where a team has comprehensively beaten everyone in every round. I think it might have been England in the early 90s where if there had been bonus points in play, they basically would have got five and the other team would have got zero in every game. Or they might have missed out on a four-try bonus point in one game. There's basically never been really a Grand Slam where a team has wiped the floor with absolutely everyone.

9:21Elgan Alderman: So if France did do that, I think it would actually be the most comprehensive Grand Slam in history, essentially. But still three rounds to go in those last two weekends in particular. I mean, we shouldn't be writing off Italy and Lille yet because two years ago it was a 13-0 draw and that fictionally had a penalty to win. And so we shouldn't be handing them the Grand Slam just yet, but they certainly should be... I think anything other than that in France will view that as under-delivering.

9:45Charlie Morgan: I think it's a really interesting distinction that David made on England, which is that it's a check for our expectations of it. I think it's really important to say that they have said all along, Richard Wigglesworth has labelled the point that, look, when we were losing these tight games, we weren't as bad as people said. Now we're winning. And he said this before the Wales game when they're on that streak of 11. And he said, we are very aware that we're not the finished article. And I think for that reason, losing at Murrayfield and the manner in which they did, I was in the captain's run on the Friday and Ben Earl did the press afterwards.

10:16Charlie Morgan: And he said, we have looked at previous games against Scotland and we have gone. We were out thought there. We were out thought there. That's where they sort of outmaneuvered us. And their strategy was just sharper than us. I think for that to happen again, now that they have the sort of level of self-awareness can really be a jolt for them and quite an important jolt. Yeah, but that's maybe the frustration, though, with the England defeat, right? And again, I think I said this in the pod on Saturday night, that I went to Murrayfield thinking England could lose this game. Scotland are good enough to beat England.

10:45They have a very good record against them. They're a very good team, all of that stuff. But I thought it would be close. I didn't necessarily expect the manner of that England performance. And it was kind of the demons of Calcutta Cups past were coming back to haunt them, weren't they? I mean, as Charlie says there, David, you mentioned that it's maybe made us reassess kind of where England are off the back of seeing them at Murrayfield. What's your assessment of this England team at the moment? I mean, I am a fan of what Steve Morthwick has done up to now. I think England are a very decent team.

11:16They remain a very decent team, but maybe not quite the team we thought they were. I had a real kind of moment of, wow, I didn't expect to see that. in the moment that Finn Russell and Sione Trupalato threw those long passes that ended with Jamie Ritchie having a walk-in in Troy. I think when the pass was going to Ritchie, there wasn't an England player within 40, 50 metres of him. And I thought, wow, how can England get so exposed? And I thought that was a bit jolting, jarring. And I also felt that in whatever it was, 12 phases of play before the ill-fated attempted a drop goal, I thought the England attack had kind of run itself out.

12:05It was like a heavyweight contest where both fighters are in the middle of the ring. But the guy throwing the punches is the guy who's going to run out of steam. And when you consider that George Ford had been clearing a rock 11 seconds before he tried the drop goal, you thought, this is chaos. This actually is really the kind of play that a backs coach would lose his life over. And say, how could that be? I mean, you see a team going for a drop goal. And it was a relatively easy block down for Matt Fagerson. And then if you went back, you know, England, it was going to be really difficult, you know, whatever it was at that point, 41 points to 14 or 13.

12:52But it was only 53 minutes into the game. But when the try was scored, Finn Russell goes down to take the conversion. And if you look at this on the video now, it's alarming to see how long it took England's players to get back behind their own goal line. I mean, Russell is there with the ball and he's got it placed. And he's waiting for the England Bears to get there. And he's got a look on his face that says, oh, is there any chance you could speed up a little bit here? And I thought that was just alarming that you'd imagine everybody wants to get back there because this game isn't over. But actually it was.

13:28England stopped believing at that point. They had a long series of attacks straight after, you know, from the kickoff. But they did exactly the same as they had done before the drop goal. the attack just petered out for lack of impact that's something that i'm sure a lot of people in the brains trust behind the team will be thinking a lot about this week yeah so that's the thing right and i'm not looking to absolutely hammer england at all i think you know you're all bang on in in the sense that it's a bit of a reality check i think what richard wigglesworth was saying charlie is very smart and the way you should approach it that you know they're not as good as they were when they're on that streak you're not as bad as you are when you lose but everything that david has outlined there is to me why i've been really struggling to kind of unpick this england defeat because there were so many elements that i think i think themselves and steve borthwick's not the sort of coach that is going to come out and hammer his players and that's absolutely fine but i think dropped so far below the standards standards that they themselves

14:26Charlie Morgan: have set for them yeah jarring jarring is where david used and that's bang on because it really felt like that it felt significant a significant setback and it was the the large their largest margin of defeat I think since that gruesome World Cup warm-up game that they had in Dublin when that was the sort of narrative after that was that we've been flogging ourselves in fitness stuff and that's why we look so leggy. But they do get themselves into really odd positions against Scotland because they get outmaneuvered so consistently and a shout out to Paul Edison who reminded me of this and made this parallel.

14:59Charlie Morgan: the Ellis Genge being in the backfield if you're blaming a loose head prop for a mistake in the backfield from a kick through you're missing a lot of stuff that's gone on to that point which has put them in such a compromising position but actually there are loads of parallels with how England have managed to get in those desperate situations against Scotland before Luke Cowendickey knocking a cross kick into touch in 2022 similar thing The Richie try that David mentions, Scotland have got a line out to go a 14-man team and they just flood runners. It's actually a Lee Blackett strike move that they use, which is really smart, with Ben White looping around the first screen player midfield.

15:45Charlie Morgan: but they flood runners towards the right edge and then England sort of honeypot a little bit but they're sort of going to do that because they're so desperate and they're understaffed anyway. They do make that first tackle but yeah, then it's a walk-in and Tupolotu's pass was lovely. There are loads of examples about that throughout the game and it just shows how smart Scotland were and how they continue to be against England and I mentioned a little bit about this frustration that their fans have last week, their ceiling is high as a side. That was so, so apparent. And before this championship, I did keep having the back of my head.

16:23Charlie Morgan: I fancy Scotland to do well. I had in the back of my head what Gregor Townsend said after the Argentina game, that he said that you've got to please recognise that the best stuff we're putting out in these autumn games has been as good as anything that I've seen since I've been head coach over a long period now. But it's that consistency and fans are sort of right to say, you know well show us that again and I think Scotland's championship now is clearly can they back that up against a home against France and can they finally go to to Ireland and at least replicate some of what they've done against England over a long period of the game it's so fascinating David I just wanted to ask you as well actually the last time that we had you on was a while ago it was just after you'd spent some time in England's camp Steve Borthwick welcomed you in and you spent a prolonged period with the team.

17:14That was when things weren't going well. What have you made of their rise since then and where they now find themselves? I think they've done really well since then. I mean, I was with them in the days before England went to Dublin. You know, they went from Girona directly to Dublin and they lost in Dublin. And two or three of the England guys, kind of when I was having conversations with them, suggested to me, now very gently, that they felt Ireland might be on the wane, which I believe is absolutely true. But it's the kind of thought that the England players shouldn't have had. They should have had a view that this Ireland team is still, relatively speaking, formidable and going to Dublin was going to really put England to their colours to win.

18:00As it turned out, they got well beaten on the day, but they picked up from that. And then you go to Murrayfield against the Scotland team. As I've said earlier, I just think it was the kind of bump on the road that every team is going to have. England have had it. And what determines the success or otherwise of this team is how they react to that. I was reminded of one thing when I was considering the game England have at Twitmanham against Ireland this weekend. Go back two years ago when England had that good win with Marcus Smith's drop goal in the last minute. How did that game open in terms of what was the first big moment of that game?

18:45It was Ireland kicking the ball long and George Furbank running it back and England scoring a really good try. And England aren't doing that anymore. so I think you know the great cliche that we keep hearing from players is learnings and I think England would have learned a hell of a lot from Sabla. Yeah and certainly what it does is put pressure on to the rest of England's matches I think they're totally capable of winning those matches but all of a sudden it throws up a bit of a different narrative or expectations pressure on this team we'll get on to their match of Ireland this weekend in just a moment before that let's speak about those other two games Elgin we've mentioned it already but Wales France in Cardiff question for you did this feel like a France home game very much did I remember they always used to

19:31Elgan Alderman: say that French politicians would canvas in London because so many French people live in London well I think a French politician would have had better luck in Cardiff on the weekend than someone in the upcoming Welsh Senedd election to be honest because on Sunday morning there were Frenchmen all over the city in fine voice this France team really has we talk about this nebulous concept of hearts hearts and minds this france team really has captured the hearts and minds of their nation their their tv figures are sky high at the moment both games they've played have had something like seven eight million viewers back at home in addition to the the huge traveling support they were not just there on sunday in cardiff the saturday night i was in the terraces at cardiff arms park there were more you know i was hearing people speaking welsh people speaking english but there was a lot of people speaking french there as well cheering on a very good under very good under-20s match to be fair and there were some green shoots for Wales there in how some of those young Welsh boys fared against you know a French team half of whom have top 14 experience this season it's just a different literally a different different league over there but certainly now there is not just huge expectation around how this France team perform on the field but off the field the nation is is fully behind them right now is there I was going to ask if there's a one selection

20:39Charlie Morgan: that has spiked or swelled the kind of good feeling towards the national team? Or is it sort of, because we see these, Jalibar, obviously there was a lot of clamour for him to play. Is that a big part of it?

20:52Elgan Alderman: I think so. So, I mean, obviously Antoine Dupont is just a god in France. He is just, he is a genuine superstar in that country in the way that we always talk about that we need more superstars in Britain. He is a genuine celebrity and superstar in France. What about Louis Bielbierre, by the way? He must be getting close. Louis BLBRA, he's not quite on the catwalk in New York or travelling over to America just yet, but certainly as a rugby player, he is another superstar. The selection of Mathieu Jalibert and also the fact that he and Dupont, I mean, actually, Dupont is the slightly more subdued member of that halfback combination at the moment.

21:25Elgan Alderman: And Jalibert, who is, I mean, the speed that he can attack with is just something that very few fly halves in the history of the game have. When France manipulate the defence so that they have him coming around at the 13 channel, it's like having your blindside wing coming around. He's got so much pace. So you've got that. You've got the fact that, OK, let's look at the three players that they didn't pick in the squad that were the headliner missions. Gael Ficou, actually, even at the time, wasn't that big in a mission. They've used six centres in the first two rounds already. They used the Bordeaux Centre Partnership from the European champions and a Toulouse 20-year-old upcoming superstar off the bench.

22:05Elgan Alderman: All three of them got injured. So this week they pick a 20-year-old debutant and his 22-year-old Poe teammate, the second best team in the top 14. And then they bring Noah Nene, a 21-year-old 6 '4 centre off the bench. So I don't think they're missing Fiku. They didn't pick Gregory Aldrete, which was the next one up. what they've done instead? They picked three number eights in the pack, basically. Charles Olivon and Michael Guillard at Locke both play number eight very effectively. And Anthony Jelon, she's actually perhaps the least suited to number eight of the three of them, playing at number eight.

22:36Elgan Alderman: And then Penneau, obviously the bigger mission. I still think it was ridiculous that he wasn't in the squad. But what they got instead? Theo Atisogbe, just playing very well out wide. So all those three decisions have gone very well for France thus far.

22:49Charlie Morgan: Being able to have Flamand on the bench, who's genuinely World 15 stuff is, yeah, that's terrifying. Yeah, they're looking pretty good at the moment. We should mention as well, lowest Six Nations attendance ever for Wales, obviously the exception, you know, ignoring the COVID period when no one could be there.

23:07Elgan Alderman: Yeah, it is difficult for Steve Tandy because he's, as he said yesterday, I can only control the rugby side. He can get three and a half million people behind his team and that's by turning the fortunes around, but that is easier said than done. And we've spoken in recent weeks, I think Alex wrote about it in the paper, about how England would lose and Steve Borthwick would say, from the stuff we can see, we're not that far away from winning. Steve Tandy is sort of trying to say the same thing after matches. The difference is they've just conceded 54 points to France and they've conceded 302 points in six games.

23:40Elgan Alderman: You're not going to win any rugby games if you're conceding 50 points every week you're playing. So yeah, the Welsh public, the fact it was a Sunday game, People talk about ticket prices, but if Wales were winning, that stadium would have been sold out. And the Scotland game is going to have a bigger crowd this weekend because it's a Saturday. They're already above 60 ,000 for that. But that Italy game on the final weekend, I think they're not yet above 50 ,000. So I wouldn't be surprised if the record goes again. David, round us off in terms of the action for round two. Ireland, Italy, Ireland with a much needed win could have easily been a different story and potentially been a draw here.

24:16but once again Italy underlining their credentials as a you know serious serious side in this championship absolutely I must say I felt Ireland were slightly fortunate but when a team plays with the kind of you know determination they played to win that kind of old-fashioned phrase will to win they really had a will to win and they did score three tries so you could argue that they did deserve it for the way they applied themselves to it but you had a feeling for most of the game that Italy were the better side. They certainly looked more fluent in attack and they had a vastly superior scrum, which is just an ongoing concern for Ireland.

24:57But overall, the thing you take away from it was that it was an Ireland-Italy game that had everybody engaged. You were watching the second half of that game and I would say, best Ireland-Italy game I've ever seen. And that has to be a great thing for the championship. And I do think when you've had a, we'll say a substandard performance like Ireland had against France, you go out in the next game and you want to play really well, but chances are you're not going to play really well. But what's absolutely imperative is that you win. And if you win, and it's not overly convincing, you have a starting point and you're likely to get better in your next game.

25:46So my feeling would be that Ireland will probably play quite well or even very well at Twickenham and it may not be good enough to win. But I think England are now in the position that Ireland were in after Ireland's game against France and that England are thinking, OK, what we need to do against Ireland is win. It doesn't matter so much how we win, but if we win, we're back in the game and brought back thinking that we can still win this championship or at least go very close. Razzi Erasmus' prediction that Italy finished second all of a sudden doesn't look too ridiculous. We'll have a quick break there and then we'll look ahead to all of the action in round three.

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27:28Charlie Morgan: Over 90 of the top 100 U.S. accounting firms trust Bill to handle bill pay processes. Why? Because our tools are built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. We're not just moving money. We're powering financial workflows for half a million customers. That's a level of expertise you just can't fake. Ready to talk with an expert? Visit bill.com slash proven to get started and grab a$250 gift card as a thank you. Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details. Okay, so usually in a Six Nations we would be in a rest weekend. Charlie, what impact, if any, does the fact that we're not and they have to go for a third match in a row have this weekend?

28:11Charlie Morgan: I think it's hugely significant, not least because we'll be absolutely knackered by the end of it. Justice for the journalists. Yeah, no, when you think of Ireland playing England, let's take that game as an example and how there might be ripple effects from the schedule. Ireland playing their first game on a Thursday, obviously have a couple of days extra rest for England. They then rotate quite a fair bit for Italy and get through that game. And they just all of a sudden, that's a lot more freshness that they have. England, that game at Murrayfield would have taken a lot out of them. And I wonder whether now they feel that they have to rotate a bit, certainly in the back row, given Ben Earl is a very, very fit man.

28:51Charlie Morgan: He crawled over the line for his own try right at the end and looked absolutely spent. I think he topped the tackle count and carried 20 plus times, which is just a huge amount to get through. It'd be interesting to see how England managed Maratoji too. He looked like a guy who's had a disrupted preparation for this tournament. All of those things. And then you're thinking about normally in the Six Nations with those rhythms that we're used to, you'd think continuity in selection is extra important because you build impetus over the course of a campaign. All of a sudden you might not have that luxury and there might be more changes to cater for the...

29:32Charlie Morgan: Because three Test matches on the bounce, with the intensity in a World Cup, you get that at the knockout rounds. You don't get that in the group stages because there's normally a game where a bigger side will be able to rotate. Three full-blooded ones, that's different. That's very, very arduous. How do you see Borthwick managing that? He's a coach that we know who isn't knee-jerk. He's very methodical, very thought out in his selections. But there's talk about the centres. There's talk about the back row with Tom Curry, potentially. There's obviously the back three with what happens with Henry Arundel.

30:05So we could see a bit of movement there.

30:06Charlie Morgan: Yeah, I'll find out hopefully a little bit more later. I'm going to Penny Hill Park. But the obvious way to do that, and actually where England can't necessarily do that. So in the autumn, with Baxter and Stewart fit, they could use their sort of props, see their starting props and their starting front row, say, as a whole, as a unit, and rotate that and have them change the order of them, have starters and finishers over the course of the tournament, change that so make sure everybody's fresh. They don't necessarily have that. Interesting how long Joe Hayes was asked to go at Murrayfield as well.

30:39Charlie Morgan: I think Trevor Davison only got five minutes or so off the top of my head. But Hayes, again, run himself into the ground. So that's a tough turnaround for him. I think the key will be to ensure, I would expect at least one change in the starting back row just to reinvigorate that area a little bit. Not least because those players just go through so, so much. And maybe more importantly, they set the tone for how England played. The selection from an Ireland point of view, I think I've asked this question every single week on the pod so far through the Six Nations, but it's fly half. Again, there's chat about Jack Crowley, the reception he got in Dublin.

31:14Potentially we could see a change there, Elgin, in terms of the Ireland fly half position.

31:17Elgan Alderman: I believe Peter O 'Reilly's already written that Andy Farrell came to Sam Prendergast's defence, saying let's support our players, etc. But the intimation of that piece was that it looks like Jack Crowley will be getting the nod, and it certainly feels like they might get a firmer hand at the tiller with that. That's not to write off Sam Prendergast forever, but right now it does look like Jack just does offer that bit more management of the team and the game, and Ireland did look better in that second half when they did manage to win a game that they were at real risk of losing. David, how do you see the fly-half situation?

31:50I mean, it's dominated the rugby landscape in Ireland basically since Johnny Sexton retired. Sam Prendergast, we know all about his talents, but at times I think it looks like that he's maybe losing a bit of confidence at the moment. Jack Crowley there as well. How do you see it in that position? My starting point is that I was a really big Sam Prendergast fan. When he came into the team, I really liked the way he played. I thought his passing was excellent. I thought his control of the game was good. He kicks the ball very well out of hand. And I'll say I've changed my view now. And Saturday was defining for me in relation to, I just thought, no, Sam, you've got to go away.

32:34And if it is confidence, you've got to try and get that confidence back. But he no longer looks any kind of a running threat, which when he came in first, he did. And what he's doing now is taking the ball, you know, pretty flat to the line, if you're fair enough. But he's distributing it without any pace. And he's not moving. He's not challenging the defence in any way. and he's making mistakes and his place kicking is, you know, not nearly good enough for this level. And we know that his defence is definitely not a strong part of his game. So when Jack Crowley came on on Saturday, like everybody else, I'm thinking, yeah, this is good.

33:27Jack needs to be there. I think there's no question about who will start 10 at Twickenham. it will be Jack Crowley. And if I'm being honest, I'd be surprised if Sam Prendergast was on the bench. I suppose the one question I have with the Sam Prendergast thing is to how much is it as well that he's also playing in a team that are just simply less dominant. I think you're absolutely right, David. There's clearly issues or perhaps some holes in his game, but I think previously that might have been masked by the fact that he had a pack and was playing in a team or would have been playing in a team, an Ireland team that was so dominant.

34:01Just one more, Charlie, on Ireland. how dangerous a prospect are they for England? Because the way we look at this game has changed a little. I think England will still be favourites, won't they? Particularly because they're at home. But the way we probably feel about this game is a little different now because of what happened at Murrayfield.

34:16Charlie Morgan: Yeah, I would say so. I think it's on England to ensure that the fresh scars of this latest Scotland kind of defeat don't bleed into this week. And that's what we hear time and again that Steve Borthwick is excellent at That is refocusing side. And he made sure to sort of make that point in his post-match stuff that, you know, I don't deal in the polarities of opinion. The point he was making was that we do as journalists. But no, they are a side island with a lot of players who have experience of beating England. They were good for a lot of that. The last game at Twickenham when they came so close to winning and England got out of jail with an excellent attack, it must be said, in the lead up to that Marcus Smith drop goal.

35:01Charlie Morgan: But no, it's certainly a dangerous one. And as we said last week, the impetus in a Six Nations works two ways. You know, you get on a roll winning or you get on a roll where you feel a bit neurotic towards the back end of games and you can shrink. And England have the experience to resist that, to sort of avoid that happening. But they need to be assertive this week and start well, certainly you'd expect. Yeah, I look at England's three games now. Ireland home, Italy away, France away. Great challenge and they'll lean into that. But three really tough games. Wales, Scotland also this weekend, Elgin.

35:38I think this was one of those matches that before the Six Nations started, you may have even mentioned this, I might be wrong, so you can correct me if I am there, but Wales might have had this as the one circled of possibly an opportunity to get a result. Has that changed because of what we've seen in the opening two rounds?

35:55Elgan Alderman: I don't think it has changed. My pre-tournament prediction was that Scotland would lose in Rome with a bonus point, beat England at Murrayfield, and then as a result, coming down from that high against a Wales team, desperate for a win, that this would be Wales' best chance of winning. So two-thirds of that has come true. Whether the third part comes true, who knows? I will caveat that Wales have been worse in the first two rounds than I thought they were going to be pre-tournament. tournament so that has tempered the expectation a bit but I still think it is comfortably Wales's best chance of a win because I think if they whether they win or lose this game on on Saturday you're looking at that Friday night against Ireland which I don't see a hope there and then that final game against Italy if they are whether they're one from four or not from four it feels like you know it's a bit after the Lord Mayor's show on the on the last day it's trying to avoid possibly a third successive wooden spoon after the four games in five weeks.

36:53Elgan Alderman: Who are Wales going to have fit? They've been OK with fitness thus far, but you don't know what they're going to look like on that final weekend. So this is still pencilled in in terms of the biggest crowd we're going to have in Cardiff for the three home games as well and the history of the fixture and where it falls in the schedule. It is Wales' best bet to sneak a win this year. Do you not think they just look miles away from it, though? Like, you know, Scotland... Like Scotland... For those of you listening, I just sort of nodded there. But you know, it's one thing saying, you know, Scotland, despite a really poor performance in Rome, had the capability of turning it around and beating England.

37:29Ireland this weekend, even though they'll go to Twickenham as underdogs, have the capability of winning there. Even the match we're about to come on to, that France are going to be massive heavy favourites, but Italy have shown they're a good team. Have we seen anything from Wales in terms of evidence to suggest that they can get a win in this Six Nations?

37:43Elgan Alderman: they did improve on the Twickenham performance comfortably because that Twickenham performance was just so insipid that there was no way that they could get worse so the hope will be that with an extra week with 80 minutes against this riotous France team where there was one stage during the game I looked at Oli Cracknell and I thought I was tired just looking at him at how much the Welsh forwards and the Welsh players were being run around that field the hope is that they will just improve again with another week. Like I say, we don't know what Scotland will be coming down from this high of what they've just done.

38:19Elgan Alderman: It is a fixture. We talked before the England-Scotland game about how, for a lot of these England players, history doesn't matter anymore. But actually, on the day, history mattered and things that go back centuries mattered on that field. Wales-Scotland, there is a history of, you know, you go back to Dan Bigger's line, oh, show me all your trophies or whatever he said. That's paraphrasing what he said a few years ago. On that occasion, Scotland did actually beat them convincingly, but it wasn't Murrayfield. But even the last two years, Wales have not been far away from beating Scotland. So that is why they will feel this is our chance to win.

38:50Elgan Alderman: If you were just taking away jerseys in history, then Scotland would be comfortable favourites. But sometimes jerseys and histories do matter. Yeah, I'm prepared to look such a fool there. I'm expecting them to lose, but it's their best chance of winning. Yeah, yeah, no, I get you. I get you. What chance do we give Italy against France?

39:08Charlie Morgan: When we spoke about France's potential earlier, I was going to jump in and then didn't. But the other side of the coin of bringing in all these exciting players and maybe being slightly, I was going to say experimental is a better word, but with a back five that is essentially five back rowers and extremely athletic back rowers is that there are also weaknesses there and potential lapses across the course of 80 minutes. if you've got inexperience in some positions and you've got a potential lack of balance, but certainly if you're going one way away from weight towards athleticism. So Italy have just shown themselves to be so coordinated and tough as well as in how they've hung in games.

39:57Charlie Morgan: Ireland eventually sort of outlasted them in Dublin, but it wasn't without a serious fight from Italy and not just, you know, blood and guts. They also moved the ball well. Their scrum is phenomenal. It's been awesome to watch.

40:10Elgan Alderman: I think it might be the most dominant Six Nations scrum I've seen. I can't remember a better one.

40:16Charlie Morgan: And when England made their front row replacements, as we say, they kept Hayes on as long as possible. When Benrod came on for Ellis Genge, the scrum narrative flipped. So although Scotland were second best for the first hours, they came on strong. and Italy's dominance remained constant throughout. So that's a weapon. So it's at the point now where I'm just really looking forward to watching Italy again and seeing how they get on because they're such an exciting side. It's so refreshing, isn't it? It wasn't that long ago that Italy were a little bit, where, dare I say, Wales are at the moment, although I'm still intrigued by Wales-Scotland.

40:50But there's always the game every weekend where you thought, we know the result of that. You don't get too excited about it. Whereas all of a sudden, despite the challenge of playing in Paris, David, France, Italy, yes, France will be the heavy favourites, but you look forward to watching this Italian team because, as the boys have been outlining, they have some real strengths. Absolutely. And the thing that struck me about France against Ireland was that France weren't that interested in scrub domination. They just wanted to win their own ball. It was almost like they had a truce with Ireland.

41:19You can have your ball, we'll have our ball. And obviously that suited Ireland greatly because every Irishman going to Paris thought the scrum was going to be in trouble. And France did pretty much the same at the line-out. Everybody was saying, oh, Ireland's line-out was very good in Paris, but it was good because France didn't compete at lots of line-outs. Now, France are going to have to have a different attitude against Italy because the Italian, as Elgin and Charlie have been saying, they've got a great scrub. And they had Ireland in all kinds of trouble in the scrum. And they scrum very well against Scotland and if France are not careful their scrum are going to be in trouble what I mean by not careful is if France don't focus on scrum more than they've had to in their first two games that could be a very interesting area and the part that's really interesting now is that you know if easily get ball they have the ability and the ambition to move it and to move it really well some of their back play against Ireland was excellent it didn't always get the reward it deserved.

42:27There was one glubber that really should have ended up in an Italian drive, but the bounce kind of went Ireland's way. And I can see Italy, you know, making it a real game. I mean, it's interesting that we're now talking about France going into their third game and maybe having their first serious contest and that coming against Italy, you know, with France playing at home. So you've got to give Italy tremendous credit. I mean, you know, for too long in the Six Nations, we've had two games every kind of Six Nations weekend that we look forward to. And a third that we less look forward to and regarded as a foregone conclusion.

43:10And that was the game involving Italy. I would have been one of the people saying at that time, and I kind of still believe it should be a meritocracy. Nobody should be guaranteed a place. and that if Georgia's standards were high enough, they should have an opportunity to get themselves into the Six Nations or one of the other Tier 2 countries that are doing really well. There should be a pathway into this fantastic competition. Nobody should be guaranteed it. But Italy are now in a position where, you know, if that ever did come to pass, and I don't believe for a second it would, but if it ever did come to pass, I don't think it would be Italy that would be losing its place.

43:49yeah funny how those conversations are very very quiet now aren't they it's no longer italy at the bottom a couple of emails just to finish off paul and ryan got in touch with us the email address is the ruck at the times.co.uk now paul got in touch with a brilliantly detailed email around this narrative that scotland have never been close to winning the six nations and he was saying and outlined the games and the points and the bonus points and all that sort thing that they almost won it in 2021 elgun to which you pointed out very very quickly the grand

44:20Elgan Alderman: jam that wales almost won but yeah wales wales despite the fact that they lost the performance which was their best in the final game against france they did sneak the championship in the end and that was the look where we are now the brilliant yeah well exactly it was the brilliant lewis reese zamit try that beat scotland is a really really good game that could have gone either way and then maybe who knows for scotland yeah it was the series of no crowd red cards Peter Omani was at Zander Fagas and then the 40-24 win over England where Dan Bigger was allowed to take a penalty quickly and there was the possible knock-on from Lewis Triesamit off his knee that wasn't given on no it was Nick Tompkins I think it was and then yeah finally when they actually played really well in Paris they decided to lose that one so there we are yeah well Paul thank you for your email although I would say as well we are still a little bit talking about ifs buts and maybes rather than the reality of where Scotland have been but really appreciate you getting in touch and then ryan said an email said welcome charlie he enjoyed your first piece last week about ollie chessham england building some quality depth in the second row his question is when george martin is back how do you feel england approached the five jersey assuming maro will be wearing four whenever fit and available i'd still feel martin is our biggest scrummaging lock so is it horses for courses i.e martin for france or south africa with maybe

45:36Charlie Morgan: Chessom to six what do you reckon possibility Chessom has been less and less frequently at six even for Leicester so that's an interesting one they rate George Martin so highly you can tell by that by the fact that he's one of the guys that's holding these one of the central contracts the enhanced EPS contract sorry so yeah clearly I think I'm not sure whether that will mean that Martin is a and the thing is it feels like a long way away to say that he can be a surefire starter So I think he needs to certainly string together some games for Leicester and indeed Saransons when he moves there. But the return of Martin will just ensure that they have that extra profile of out-on-out heavy locks.

46:18Charlie Morgan: But maybe, you know, talking about how France are playing, maybe that profile of lock is sort of becoming more outdated. Although, having said that, I think that the return of Martin will make sure that their scrum can be a weapon against everybody. his ceiling's really high isn't it it's to fit the form and fitness is the concern yeah absolutely about george martin yeah absolutely they want they probably want a bit more out of him sort of carrying and and stuff like that but i think that can come yeah absolutely we're going to leave it there for this monday episode david brilliant to have you on really appreciate your time when are we next going to be seeing you at a six nations game you at twickenham this weekend for the island match yes i'm at twickenham on saturday and if i can if i can tell you about how long i've been going to Twickenham watching Ireland, I was thinking about this.

47:03What was the first time you were at Twickenham? How could I forget it? 1978. And I reckon it was the most miserable three days of my life. I'll tell you, I just graduated from university. And my older brother, Brendan, decided that because you've graduated from college, first member of the family, whoever went to university, I'm going to bring you to Cheltenham. And then you're going to go from Cheltenham to Twickenham on the Saturday. And it was a huge deal in my life. I mean, I was, whatever, I suppose, 20 years of age at the time or something like that, or 21 maybe. And I go to Cheltenham. First two days, great.

47:44I wake up on the Thursday morning and it's announced on the news that the Gold Cup Day has been called off because of snow. I'm staying in Stratford-on-Avon in a hotel. I look out and there isn't one flake of snow anywhere to be seen, but Cheltenham was called off. So the following day was St. Patrick's Day. We go to London and we prepare for the Ireland-England game. And it was the most miserable game I'd say ever played in between Ireland and England. Something like 15-9 or 15-6, a game that England were always winning and Ireland were absolutely hopeless. so it was it was kind of it started the way it was going to continue for a long time so yeah i'm looking forward to to tweaking them this weekend sorry can we just re-record the entire podcast

48:32Elgan Alderman: talking about 1978 five nations that was the final grand slam of wales's 70s i wasn't alive at the time but 27 years later i was i was there in 05 when it when it happened again i will be in liel this weekend for for france italy very much looking forward to seeing how that goes Awesome. Looking forward to it. Next podcast for you coming on Thursday, we'll be at the England training base building up to that match against Ireland and the usual fair few Saturday evening, Saturday night, the pod after the game between England and Ireland. Also, just a reminder, Monday the 9th of March is our Ruck Live at the Twickenham Stoop.

49:08Serge Bettson and Courtney Laws are going to be in attendance. Go to thetimes.com forward slash events to get your ticket. Thank you very much for listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Youth mental health is a complex challenge that requires comprehensive solutions. We must strengthen after-school programmes. We must make digital literacy tools available in our schools. We must work with mental health professionals to support children. And we must empower mentors, educators, and parents to keep kids happy. Learn more about our commitment to finding lasting solutions at empowerourfuturecoalition.com slash solutions.

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