Is the 3rd test the unofficial decider? Plus: Did Rassie break the rules?

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1:28Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Welcome back. The series between the Springboks and the All Blacks is level at one game all after the Springboks bounce back from the defeat at Ellis Park to beat New Zealand in Cape Town. I'm Alfie Reynolds and once again with me, the man for The Times in South Africa, Alex Lowe. Joined us, Alex, to review another dramatic and really engaging test match. it was yeah i mean there's storylines all over the place uh at cape town stadium on saturday i guess they started in the week with the team announcements the springboks team changed through the week it changed just before kickoff and then in the game itself the frenzied atmosphere south africa came out and did i guess delivered a champions performance bouncing back from ellis park the atmosphere was incredible the the flyby i mean i was in the stadium expecting a flyby because they did one last week and they've got this airline who are flying the teams around um and from where i was it just looked like a standard flyby and i got i caught a couple of pictures of the planes right above us it was only afterwards i realized how low those planes were and the lowest of the two i think the black one was something like 12 meters above the roof I'm no aviation expert but I think they tend to build a bit more a bit more leeway into it than that when we did our the pod series on the history of the rivalry I was reading about the fly by 95 world cup final which is where this all comes from and and the pilot that day flew 200 feet above the roof of Ellis Park which was and he needed special clearance for that that was deemed low enough, never mind 40 or 50 feet.

3:14So pretty spectacular start, another thunderous test match, and it set the whole thing up perfectly for Soweto, 90 ,000 in Johannesburg next week.

3:24Alfie: It's funny you mentioned the flyby, because when I woke up on Sunday, the first thing I actually saw about the game was the flyby, and it looked extraordinary. Like, I guess it's fine, but it's kind of amazing that they're able to fly that close to the stadium and to the roof. Last time we had you on the pod, Alex, was obviously off the back of the opening test defeat for the Springboks and we spoke about the kind of nerves, the anxiety within South Africa because they were up against it. The pressure was on. How much pressure do you think has been released off the back of the fact they've won in Cape Town, that they've leveled this series up?

4:00Huge pressure. And it's hard to describe because from the outside, you think, well, in the box of they hadn't lost for a year. they're the double world champions they beat the Lions you know they've achieved everything that they could be wanting to achieve under Razzi so what what does one defeat mean in the grand scheme of things but in the context of this series it's set up Saturday's test as a as a knockout game and I know it's a four test series but there's there's a definite feel here in South Africa that that the three tests in South Africa are like a mini series within the overall series so although if the box had lost on Saturday and gone 2-0 down they could have still drawn the overall four test series but they'd have flown to Baltimore at best 2-1 down at best they would have lost the home leg of of this tour and and that that is huge and the pressure was you could tell how big a game it was it was like a knockout game the atmosphere was like a knockout game the way that South Africa played was like a knockout game and the way that Razzi dealt with the week playing all these selection games starting from Monday trying to change the narrative after the first test defeat by announcing a 24-man squad and then making all the changes through the week that had all the hallmarks of a knockout game a game that they knew they could not afford to lose And so the pressure had built up enormously.

5:28Now it's been released to a degree. But really, we now head to Soweto next week. And neither team can afford to lose because game three of a four game series. And so it's building beautifully from the outsider. But the roller coaster of emotions in South Africa has been quite interesting to follow. it led to the performance that we got from the spring box which was very different in mindset to ellis park a lot of physicality was the same but essentially they converted their pressure into points and they took their points when they were on offer so yeah it's um it's set the thing up beautifully now one all with two to go and the psychological dynamic is fascinating to follow

6:14Alfie: Yeah, it's very telling, wasn't it, I thought, that they often routinely took the points when they were on offer. And that's ultimately why they won the game, right? Because the All Blacks outscored them on tries once again, but it was kicking those penalties that eventually saw the Springboks home. It was, and it was interesting. Where I was sitting in the stadium was very close to the two benches. And there were a couple of points in the second half where Malcolm Marks came on and just led this trail of destruction on the floor. He's such an immovable force over the ball and he was earning penalties.

6:51And Dwayne Vermeulen in the Springboks coaching staff was down by the bench. As soon as the penalty was awarded, he'd spin round and he'd be looking up into the stand behind me where Razzie was on the radio to get a signal, what do we do, corner or posts? The message comes down, posts. the Newland gets the message onto the field gets fast-tracked over to well it would have been Peter Sefti-Toy at that point because Siakalisi was off and to Colby and then they take the point so much for on-field decision-making, it was a strategy clearly from the coaches which Razzi took all the blame for the first Test defeat and if he was making those decisions to keep scrumming in that second half then it would have been on him but you're right, the key difference was they converted their pressure into points so they score three first half tries and open up at one point a 16 point lead the line out they boss the line on both sides of the ball two of those three tries came from like hugely destructive driving mauls from the from the line out but New Zealand are never out of the game they're so sharp in attack they need only a sliver of a chance and and so they they mount this comeback and they outscore the box on tries as you say they won the second half but instead of getting distracted by the power of the scrum or getting seduced by the strength of their line out which was in complete control they just took the points when they were on offer and ultimately that scoreboard pressure on the All Blacks is what carried South Africa over the line

8:26Alfie: and Chez and Colby hasn't missed a kick yet in the series as well We've spoken about the changes. Let's try and get into this then. I'm trying to piece it together in my mind. So on Monday and on the pod on Monday, we had the Springbok team news, which had Sia Khaleesi slash Paul de Villiers because they weren't sure who was going to be fit. In the end, it was Sia Khaleesi. We had Cheslin Colby, who wasn't part of the team, but he could potentially be involved, although we thought that unlikely. Andre Pollard was starting at 10. And then throughout the week, we had these changes, right? Right, so Sia Khaleesi was confirmed as being in.

9:00Alfie: Pollard then wasn't part of it. Sasha Feinberg and Gomazulu starts. Cheslin Colby comes in, and then perhaps the most dramatic of all was the change to the front row, which happened really not that long before kickoff. The front row on the bench actually switched, so they switched who was starting, essentially. I mean, what do you make of all this, Alex? What are people kind of saying about it out in South Africa? So there's different layers to it. There's a 48-hour deadline, which is contained within every tour agreement with every competition regulations by which the teams have to have confirmed their their selections so New Zealand named their team on Thursday and then there's some rumors flying around on Thursday night that Andre Pollard is out with a calf injury Friday Friday morning South Africa confirm that that is correct now you can make changes to the team after that 48-hour deadline for injury reasons.

9:53So Pollard dropping out, although it raised some suspicions and there are a couple of people over here who felt that he was never going to play, South Africa said he got a calf injury on Wednesday. They announced on Friday that Sasha Feinberg and Gomzulu would be restored at 10 and Pollard would drop out. Under the regulations, any injury has to be, you have to be able to prove it. So I don't think there's any issue there. The kind of curiosity started to arise when they also confirmed that Cezlin Colby was going to start on the wing. Now, Razzi had floated that on Monday. And after the game on Saturday night, he did say, well, maybe I should have bracketed Colby with Kirtley Aronser in the same way he did with Calissian Tavillias to make it clear to everyone what our thinking was.

10:35But he didn't do that. He said on Saturday night that Colby had come through training on Monday and they knew on Monday night he was going to play. but they didn't confirm he was going to play publicly until Friday which is after the 48 hour deadline and therefore is in breach of the regulations and then we get to the game and the team sheets come out and without any fanfare at all you had to have usually the team just confirms what you already know you click on it and you're like oh they've switched their front rows around is that allowed or not so I was doing a little bit of digging before the game and it If this was a World Cup, then you wouldn't be allowed to do it.

11:14South Africa would be fined for changing the composition of their team in that way within the 48-hour window. It seems like the wording of the tour agreement is a bit looser than a world rugby competition. Seems like it just refers to the 23 rather than the specific starting 15 and bench. And so Razzie, quite on brand really, to have read the wording, understood the wording and realised there was scope for him to change up everything that the all black pack would have been prepared for. But there was a lot of angst around Kiwi Media, who I was sitting near, about whether or not that was to the letter of the regulation, which it sounds like it is, switching the front rows.

12:03Whether it's to the spirit of the intention of the regulation, I'm not sure it is. And I say that because the 48-hour deadline is in there really for media publicity reasons. it's great for media it's great for the coverage it's great for the fans it's a point in the week that gives some focus to the game on the Saturday and the regulations and the organisations like it because you can market it you can get sponsorship arrangements around it it's a set piece event in the week and all that we've had this week is question marks over what Razzie's true intentions really are but he's sort of run roughshod over what a system that's supposed to work for the greater good of the game.

12:48Alfie: But I suppose just to play devil's advocate on that point, Alex, because one thing I was trying to think, like, does this matter? And based on what you said there, I suppose you could argue that actually with the team that he announced on Monday and all the question marks over it, with the changes through the week, with the drama shortly before kickoff, is there was still that narrative there. People were still talking about the game and were engaging with it. Now, you can't do that every single week, but by the sounds of it and what you're saying, if this was a world rugby sanctioned competition, if this was the World Cup, he wouldn't have been able to in the same way anyway.

13:19Alfie: So I think if it is kind of this one-off thing that maybe happened last week, let's see if it happens this coming week and then it might be more of an issue. But if it is just in that one-off week, it doesn't sound like he would be able to do it in the same way every week and in every competition, that actually maybe it's not as big a deal. But I don't know, what do you reckon? Well, I'd be more on that. I think Colby is the centre point to this. Because if they had bracketed Colby on Monday and confirmed him on Tuesday in the same way they did Khaleesi, that would have been fine. Because it would have been way before the deadline.

13:58What they've done is promote Colby into the team after the point when they're supposed to finalise their team. And it wasn't injury-related. And Razzie said that they knew they were going to pick Colby on Monday. So that, for me, is the particular selection where they have gone against the regulations. They promoted him late in the week. Now, if they'd been up front and gone, we're not sure about these two, we want to name the team today, but we've got an either or. We'll confirm both tomorrow. I don't think that's a problem. And then everyone just got caught by surprise on Saturday because no one has seen that happen before.

14:29And it's very razzy, like I say, it's very on brand for the box to think of something that hasn't been done before and realise that they're allowed to do it. And if it's contained within regs, then it's fine. It's definitely, it's not been number four as far as I can think of. I can't remember any examples. But it's the accumulation of things. It's the sort of, he named his team on Monday, but everyone expects him to change it. And so what's the point in doing the big set piece on Monday? You know, when you don't actually know what your team is. And it would be tiresome if he did this every week.

15:01And he won't do it every week. So yeah, you're right. It shouldn't be that big a deal. But the Colby thing is that signifies to me that there was more to this than just the box being a bit unsure on Monday.

15:16Alfie: By the way, you say you can't remember seeing anything like it before. The only thing I can think of, and this is like no way a like for like, but I did an Ealing-Bristol match in the Championship in Pat Lamb's first season. And it was a massive game at the time. I'm sure no one really remembers it. So it was kind of one and two. And it was at Ealing towards the end of the season. And if Bristol won that, then you kind of thought they'd go on and they'd easily win promotion. And I remember turning up and speaking to people at Ealing and they thought, well, yeah, Bristol have named this team. But we're pretty sure that actually they're going to change it and it's going to be this.

15:48Alfie: And they'd kind of done it in that way, which is exactly what happened. I know that's not a like for like. It is not Springboks, All Black, second test, greatest rivalry, 60 ,000 in Cape Town. It's the last time ever that Ealing against Bristol in the championship will be compared to that fixture. but it was the only thing I could think of that came anywhere close to kind of the last minute changes that maybe Erasmus went for. Let's speak about the All Blacks, Alex. Where do you think they'll be here? They're in a great position still, won all in the series. As I've said already, they scored more tries than South Africa once again.

16:19Alfie: Do you think they will be encouraged by that, encouraged by some of the tries they're scoring, which are outstanding, their resilience to hang in this test match, even though for large parts of it, the box were easily in control? or are they going to be concerned about what you've mentioned? Once again, the scrum struggled, line-out massively struggled as well. Some real key pillars of the game that you just feel like the Springboks have control of in this series. Well, I think both of those things are true. So let's start with the negative. The line-out was a huge problem for them. The scrum is a fascinating area.

16:52It was a little bit more even than the first test, but there was a lot of messing about. and then right at the end of last week, in fact on Thursday, Dave Rennie just dropped in that he had been in touch with World Rugby about the scrums in the first test and obviously New Zealand won that key scrum which turned the game. He felt they should have been rewarded earlier and argued that the Springboks were shifting to the left and then walking around the outside. One of the first things that Rennie said in his post-match press conference was to raise the same issue to accuse the Springboks again of shunting and then walking around the outside which which so angered Razia Rasmus that when it was put to him he started with a fairly measured answer and ended up with some pretty industrial language by saying we've never been accused of this in in in two years we've got dominance scrum we go straight you can't say we're effing walking around the outside and then he goes And by the way, you know, we've not complained about any of the headshots that we believe went unpunished.

17:59The last line-out in the game was skew, but we don't complain about that. I'm like, well, you are now. But anyway, so there's a real focus on the scrum. And next week, Nika Amashikeli, who will come back into ref game three, it's going to be a massive talking point all week. Flip it to the positives for New Zealand. And New Zealand's character is without question. The depth to which they're prepared to go in defence, to withstand wave after wave of big men coming at them, to dig in. We saw it at critical times in the first test, end of the first half, and then end of the second half in particular.

18:40They couldn't hold out as well on Saturday, but they did at key times. And that allows them to always be in the game because they are capable of scoring something out of nothing. But I guess the execution, the threat that New Zealand pose in attack is always there. That combined with their defensive heart and zeal, so far has won them in the first game, it kept them in the second game despite the obvious set-piece problems. And that's been the theme of this team so far on this tour. and that's what they'll take into the third test. They'll need to find a way to sort out the line out. The scrum is going to be a problem for them and that's going to be a narrative all week.

19:28But so long as they can carve South Africa open three or four times in the game to score those tries, they'll always be in it. And it makes it for a fascinating contest, fascinating clash of styles in so many ways between what the Bucs are good at and what the All Blacks are good at.

19:46Alfie: Yeah, and Barnsley's been writing about that, of just such the clear, distinctive styles between these two teams. And I think even if you are an All Black fan, you're probably looking at this team, all right, it's now 1-1 in the series. The momentum is with the Springboks. I don't think any of us would be shocked if from here the Springboks push on to win this series. But I think just that identity and style and quality we're seeing in this New Zealand team is something that New Zealand fans are going to be massively encouraged by. We'll have a quick break here and we'll come back the other side and maybe preview the third test.

20:18Alfie: But Alex has had a chat with Sean Fitzpatrick, the former All Blacks captain, famously the captain at the 1995 World Cup, which of course was the World Cup that gave Jonah Lomu the platform to become maybe rugby's first ever global superstar. On the 7th of September, a new film, Lomu, is coming out. And Alex has had a chat with Sean Fitzpatrick about the film and also about the incredible career of Jonah Lomu. For us in 95, for example, or even in 94 when he made his debut, I can remember Earl Curtin saying, look, he is just not fit enough to play at number eight because that's his position. That's where I first saw him in 93 as a schoolboy, playing at number eight.

21:00And we were like, who the bloody hell is that? And that was one Jay Lomu. And he scored four tries in 20 minutes off the back of the scrump against Australia playing for the schoolboys. And so it was just a case that, you know, he got exposed by the French in that series in 94, turning the big fella around. That was always the big thing. It was defensive, you know. But we just thought that was just his fitness level. So he didn't know anything about the kidney disorder. And then in 95, we had a training camp in Taupo. That just killed us. It was just like, we want to be the fittest and fastest team in the world.

21:40And we went about the training sessions and unfortunately, Jonah just couldn't do it. Sean, take us back to that schoolboy game that you saw. He broke every athletics and rugby record at Wesley College. He was an extraordinary athlete. When you watched that game, him scoring four tries at number eight, was it obvious to you then that here was a kid who had talents beyond what most rugby players had? A couple of the guys had seen him before. I think Rushy had seen him. And I think even Zinzan had seen him sort of playing sevens or something. But yeah, he's out of this world. But then to be in the space of nine months, I think, Earl Curtin had convinced Laurie that he could turn him into a winger.

22:28And that was literally it. But yeah, we didn't sort of know too much about Jonah. But just the way that Laurie wanted to play the game was we had these two nippy wingers, Jeff Wilson and Eric Rush. Quick ball, we weren't a big team, but we were the fittest team at the World Cup. And that was going to create this game that no one had really seen before, creating space. And in those days, creating space, you had acres of space, unlike today. And it just suited the way we played the game. And he fitted the mould perfectly. You give him a 10-yard start, and he was unstoppable, as we saw throughout those pool games.

23:07And did he get bogged down in any of the intricacies or was he freed within a set-up to just be himself? Just be himself. He loved it. He was a real, real team mate. He was just having fun. Bloody hell. And we, as I said, we had a good team. So, you know, they all got on and it was just Jonah. I, you know, just see all that dialysis stuff that he was doing, you know, in the morning and the evening. And, my God, it was just like, oh, wow. It doesn't actually understand and respect him even more for what he was trying to achieve. When you were his captain, you saw, I guess, 95, 96, and he exploded onto the scene and the sponsors were after him and everyone wants to speak to him.

23:54One of the interesting things that I took from the documentary was that identity piece of almost having to be coached out of being naturally Tongan to be comfortable speaking in public. And what did you notice of him through that period with, I guess, the spotlight on him? He's enjoying himself on the field. As you said, that's where he expressed himself on the field. But he was learning off the field and that created this sort of identity tension. What would you have noticed around him at that time? I think the start of 96 after 95, you know, I remember that he played for the Blues. and just the constant, constant pressure he was under from the media, from fans.

24:37So it was a case of, especially in 96, just trying to manage it, help him out, shield him from it a bit. And we had a pretty good team in 96 in the Blues. And that was just such a fun time. He loved it because we were playing at Eden Park, full stadium every weekend, going to South Africa. It was just a really happy time and he just loved it in terms of that super rugby season. He had his mate Vin Derry on the other wing and a lot of his All Black colleagues were in that team also. You said he just loved being part of the team and it's the All Black way. Take us in behind the scenes in that 95 tournament as his name, his reputation is growing week on week and the adulation is there and the attention is there.

25:27But within your camp, what was he like day-to-day out in the training field to be a roommate? I mean, I guess, did he a roommate with? Who would he have shared with? What was he like? Probably Rushy and Buncey. He was just, honestly, Alex, he was just one of the team. And, you know, through those pool games, although he was scoring some great tries and, you know, his profile was raising, it wasn't, we didn't really think anything of it. It was just Jonah. You know, he'd done it through super rugby. so we we just you know worked our way through the pool games you know we obviously that semi-final the quarter-final we we had I think we played Scotland on the quarter-final and then and then the semi-final was that was our big game that's the one that we had targeted that was always going to be the big challenge after losing a 93 against him he was up for it because we sort of explained what happened in the 93 and you know that you know you're up against the Underwoods and just childhood names he had heard the Carlings of the world Gus Scott you know those sort of players were when he was 10 years old he was watching him so it was the same same for everyone I'm just you know the run of that game just just fell onto his hands really.

26:46Did Tony Underwood do himself no favours with a few of the things he said before that game? I didn't see that apparently Rushy put something on his door about who is this guy? He isn't showing himself. I don't know. You know better than I do. But yeah, I don't think that made a lot of difference. No, I think Tony said something like he's not been marked. He's not been properly marked yet and then Jonah came out and scored four tries. But like you say, he just played the way he played. I don't imagine he was fired up by anything. We didn't do anything differently. That showed that high tempo game because England must have been odds-on favourites to win the tournament.

27:27That team they had. But they were big and we were a lot more agile and smaller. I've spoken to you before about the Kerry Packer contracts that were being discussed through that tournament. I wonder whether at the time or since you've reflected on almost how important Jonah was in... Rugby was heading towards professionalism, but it reached a point there where you had two huge media magnets trying to take the game in one direction or another. But Jonas' signature was the prize signature. Rugby Union couldn't stay amateur with a superstar of his stature. He would have been lost to Rugby League.

28:12I wonder whether at the time or since, have you sort of reflected on really how important he was in the game's evolution and where it has ended up? I don't know. No, I don't. We didn't know anything about that until the Sunday after the World Cup final. And obviously those discussions had been going on for a while. So I, you know, Jonah's, you know, obviously maybe the value of the game went up a bit in that World Cup. but they'd already made their decision World Rugby to, or the IRB in those days, to sell the game to Murdoch and then Packer was a late entry, wasn't he? Yeah, I know one of Murdoch's one of the reasons that he wanted to, he was so appealed to Rugby Union, appealed to him so much was because he was watching Jonah play Is that what he said?

29:03Yeah, Peter Fitzsimons' book on the whole episode is fascinating and he touches on it in that that this rugby union superstar was so attractive to Murdoch and it feels all these years distance like that's, his presence was so key in how the game has evolved. Alex, he's the only global star we've ever had. There's no one, no one has come close to him. anyone. The Dan Carters of the world, Richie, Johnny Wilkinson, not even close. And there won't ever be another global star like him. And why do you think that is? What was it about him? He transcended the game. What he did in 95. The Americans hadn't seen that before.

29:59The Italians hadn't seen that before. Chinese hadn't seen that before. It was just, my God. And in terms of the marketing of it, the McDonald's, the Pizza Hut, wherever it was, that had never been done before. Where he could be a global brand, now with the collective bargaining agreement, like in New Zealand especially, we can't do that, as they did in 1995. And I guess the special thing was that none of it was manufactured, it all came purely from his rugby. Yeah, and I think the size of him, you know, in those days to have a 6 '5 winger who weighed 27 was unheard of. They could run 100 metres in 10 seconds, you know.

30:39We just hadn't seen that before. Where now it's quite common. Yeah, and the game, in some ways, he encapsulates how far the game has evolved because you see athletes moving like he did much more often nowadays. But he was, as Will Carling called him, He was a freak at the time. There was no one like him. No one like him. He could have played in the second row in the All Blacks. He was the same size as Robin Brooke. Incredible. What does he mean to you, Sean? I'm obviously very humbled that he was one of our team members. The way he encapsulated the All Black jersey was very special. And he's one of our great All Blacks.

31:24And he loved the jersey. he loved life and he had 40 of the, you know, not the best years of anyone, but he had, you know, from a kid from Otara, he ended up being this global superstar. And that is just, he would love other generations, other kids coming through to say, this is possible. What I achieved is possible for a lot of you. Do you think he recognised the influence he had? He probably did, but he wasn't going to probably acknowledge it. Yeah, I think he did. The amount of time you look at, you know, look at old footage of him walking off the field, hundreds of kids around him. And he was always the last one back into the changing room because, you know, he wanted to acknowledge, you know, the kids and try and inspire the next generation.

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32:59Alfie: Brilliant to have Sean Fitzpatrick on the pod. So a reminder, one night only, Lomu in cinemas on the 7th of September. Alex, where can people go and get their tickets? Pretty straightforward. You can just go to lomu-doc.com. And I'd really recommend it. I think rugby fans know what a superstar Jonah Lomu was. they know that the impact he had on the game he was right at the vanguard of of the sport turning professional you know there was a huge clamor for his signature you know if rugby union was on the way to professionalism but had it stalled for a year I think he'd have ended up going to rugby league because the money was on offer there for him so it tells that story brilliantly his rise to stardom but it's also really quite a raw documentary it explores the sort of the tension he felt the identity tension between this quiet kid who spent some formative years growing up in in Tonga who then became this global superstar as an all-black and but his family situation was complicated uh so he he he was really struggled to to understand who he was and then you throw in this the liver disease that that that he he was diagnosed with really at the peak of his powers and he that he had he carried he played with and then had to had to have a transplant operation it explores the other side of Lomu I guess the side of him the private side of him that is less well known um and it is yeah it's quite an emotional watch at times so definitely recommend it it's in cinemas one night only September the 7th I would um I get those tickets lomu-doc.com and thanks to Sean Fitzpatrick for for the chat he joined us on our rock series about the greatest rivals and he took some time out to also talk about Lomu who is clearly a man close to his heart.

34:53Alfie: Yeah absolutely understandably so and I think rugby's ever since Lomu really has never been able to find the next superstar has it in terms of a global reach. Let's just finish off Alex with a couple on test three Springboks All Blacks 1-0. You mentioned this earlier but how much of a feel is there even though this is a four test series even though it's going to America after this that the decider is happening this weekend that it's the three test matches in South Africa that are the most important things definitely um you know it is a it is a four test series and and in a lot of minds over here this is a three test series with an extra fixture in Baltimore so there's a knockout sense to these games now and um which adds to the pressure and it adds to the excitement but it's also touched on it in my in my match report on Saturday night for the Sunday Times and and it's something I'm trying to explore further too that the value to New Zealand and South Africa of revisiting these series playing each other a year out from a World Cup you know these these series will take place every four years each edition will be 12 months out from the World Cup you know I know Australia and Argentina are currently playing each other and in test matches and Australia played Japan but you're not telling me that's the same as these two deep rivals and I was just thinking in the stadium yesterday watching them play that you've got England and France and Ireland all sitting at home in their off season looking at these two playing a series as high quality and as intense as this in matches that have a knockout feel to them there was a knockout feel on Saturday and there will be again next Saturday in Soweto.

36:41And in a year's time, these two will meet probably in the World Cup quarterfinal, which will help the rest of the world because of the oddity of the draw. But it's, you know, I use the phrase iron, sharpens iron in the match report. And that, it feels like that's what's going on here. You know, everyone else is in their off season in the Northern Hemisphere. And it's only going to help both teams a year out from a World Cup, which still remains the biggest prize. Although I think Jamie Wall was on saying, no, this would be a bit, for New Zealand to win this, would be bigger than a World Cup because it's harder, which again, puts it into the kind of context of what they're trying to achieve here.

37:20So yeah, so we go from big knockout game feel in Cape Town to another 90 ,000 in Johannesburg. And with it tied at one all, it's just set up perfectly with this clash of styles tied at 1-all and to back to your original point there's a definite feel among certainly media I've spoken to over here that if South Africa draw the series 2-2 but leave here for Baltimore having won the South Africa leg 2-1 then that's fine but they can't leave South Africa having lost 2-1 on home soil so it's a knockout game is it does have an all or nothing feel about it and Baltimore is is this sort of add-on which is part of the series and that's why the trophy is quite clever in that it's two sides connected by a magnet so if it is two all each team keeps half of the trophy um but they can literally split the trophy yeah yeah it's divided in two and held together by a magnet um but it yeah but it's it's neither team really wants that neither team's thinking of that it is all on it is all on Johannesburg next week that's the final

38:40Alfie: yeah and I thought it was very revealing that that opening of your match report spoke about iron sharpens iron and what this means in the context of the World Cup because watching it the quality of these test matches the fact they're going back at each other week after week after week in a series you can't help but think of what great preparation this could be for both these teams for the World Cup as you rightly point out the rest of the world are probably pretty glad that that world cup the world cup draw has happened and you know when we get to australia we're most likely going to be talking about springboks all blacks quarterfinal is this essentially the final but we will pause that won't be for another year or so just compare it to some of the rugby we saw in the nation's championship in july where they were high scoring games uh which were test matches but not of this thunderous intensity and that that's the difference the nation's champ is a concept that you might like or dislike um but it's it's now a series of one-off test matches and i i was at all three england games watched a whole load of others and you know the new zealand tests against ireland and france were great fun to watch but they didn't they didn't have this thunder to them that these test matches have had it's just something it's a level above it's a level above and and that's the difference like six nations is huge and historic and wonderful but then in you know you'll have november which is more more nations champ finals weekend in which um who knows who's going to play who but only 1v1 it matters really and 1v1 will be france or ireland probably against new zealand or South Africa.

40:20You don't have this sustained level of ferocity and thunder to deal with week on week. And it's just such a marked difference between the nation's champ and what we're seeing here.

40:31Alfie: Yeah, totally. We will leave it there. We'll be back with you next Monday to look back on that third test, which I feel like I'm saying this every single week. Can't wait for. What a brilliant series that is being delivered between the Springboks and the All Blacks. Alex, always great to have you on. Appreciate the work in South Africa. We'll speak to you soon. look forward to our feet top man uh thanks very much for listening this has been the ruck the journalists rugby podcast from the times and the sunday times do you keep hearing podcast ads like this one for example but always wonder how you actually get involved with them for your own brand or organization well it's easier than you think we're a cast and we give you the platform to do it all yourself browse thousands of popular podcasts choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget, and launch.

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