Is this Bath's year in Europe? Plus hybrid hero André Esterhuizen

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1:07Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times and the breaking news from us here is that we're a bas-ball-free zone today, everyone. But like Ben Stokes' dressing room, there's no place for the week on The Ruck. However, unlike the England cricket team we certainly haven't over prepared have we Alex Lowe no I think that would be breaking tradition if we don't prepare for the rug I mean I just said basble free zone but that's a remarkable thing to say was he just taking the mickey Brendan McCollum saying because all the chat around that have you done enough prep and he said if anything Clive we've over prepared he probably was I thought Ben Stokes' reaction was way better much more on point and much more accurate if you'd actually watched the four days of cricket that had unfolded and the two days in Perth where it's those moments we've talked about it for the England rugby team for the last year it's the moments when the game's on the line how do you react and the England cricket team have just lost their heads in all those moments and the England rugby team were doing the same and at least the rugby team seemed to have corrected it Yeah, yeah, yeah We've tumbled onto you I haven't even introduced Alex Lowe here Hello and Elgin Oldham is also here.

2:24Sitting here for the silent W in England and Wales cricket board as per. We'll leave the cricket chat to Athos, Simon Wild and Lizzie Amman because we've got to talk about loads of rugby, haven't we? It feels like these weekends, Alex, are not exactly the most appointment to view, are they? No, the way the fixtures fell, certainly for us at the Times, most of the better games are on Saturday and you can go to But Pone Northampton was sort of the standout, I think, on Sunday. It's really difficult to get to. But it's difficult to get to. And the problem, without rehearsing all the conversations we had a year ago, the problem is, what do they mean?

3:06Yeah. These games don't mean an awful lot at this stage because teams know that, although there were some standout results this weekend, don't get me wrong, like Northampton winning, even Quinn's getting a losing bonus point at Leinster, like good results but they don't actually mean anything in the grand scheme of things because most teams will go through to the next round and so that then takes away any sense of big occasion about these early rounds of Europe we all know that as we get deeper it gets bigger and then by the semis in particular routinely epic games but early on it's really hard it's a hard sell listen we don't need to have the whole conversation all over again but Europe needs an over overhaul it's too big a competition there are too many English teams who don't deserve to be in it the balance of having eight of the ten English teams in in the Champions Cup is wrong it just takes away all the jeopardy and all the sort of showpiece element of the start of the European Cup yeah yeah well we will get on to some of the bits and pieces and we'll do actually quite a South African heavy pod today which with no pun intended is one in the eye for some of our social media friends um we'll wrap around a bit of Champions Cup World Cup draw which came out last week a bit of Evan Etzebeth and his gouging ban the last thing we should say to tee it up as well is that we've got a special guest coming on the pod this week pretty cool one to get I think Andre the Giant Esterhazen the extraordinary 12 cum flanker joins us as his Sharks face Saracens on Saturday so we'll listen to him and chat to him in the middle of the pod but why don't we rattle around a bit of Champions Cup to start with we've obviously mentioned the debate and the fact that it's I don't know not that easiest thing to find on the telly Elgin and everything like that what when you did find it via your laptop and everything else what stood out for you as a marquee result do you think of the

4:54Elgan: of the fixtures I think Bordeaux Berg winning away to away to the Bulls having been what I think it was 24-0 in the second half I think it was so for them to win 46-33 out there they were able to prioritize that game as defending champions because they've got probably playing Scarlet at Chaban Delman next week. They could probably view that as one where they don't have to have all their star players out. So they had Penneau, BLBRA, Jalibert, Cameron Wokey all playing out in South Africa. And winning that out there is a statement win. And I'm sure as champions, they really wanted to start well with that one.

5:31Elgan: So that one really jumped out at me. I think Bath's win at home to Munster again. Another example of a team that's been doing so well domestically. Bath now wanting to have a good crack at Europe as well after not having won last year and you know 27 years on from when they were last European champions and then we mentioned the other one Northampton winning out in Poe I think winning away British clubs winning away in France that's the essence of of true European greatness when you think back to 30 years of this competition so that was another one that jumped out and then Toulouse just winning comfortably at home again with Antoine Dupont coming off off the bench that was another one that uh stuck out beating the Sharks 56-19.

6:10That was a rotated Sharks though right wasn't it they're they're prioritizing this series game i think but anyway alex what do you think you mentioned jalebert um stuart barnes has written about jalebert in his column in monday's paper what's what is his situation with france as a player i mean stuart barnes likened him to

6:30Elgan: jonathan davis which i think is quite a good as the original jonathan davis not johnny fox jiffy not fox the original jonathan davis a fly half that is such a good running threat with such a great turn of pace i've seen matthew jalibert this season scoring 90 meter tap penalty try where no one laid a finger on him because he just ran down the middle of the field so that's the type of thing he can do that most fly halves with the exception of someone like sasha feinberg and gomazulu can't do the difficulty with jalibert is that dupont and antimac who are of course a toulouse 9 and 10 a france 9 and 10 even though they've only played together i think three times for France during the past three or four years.

7:10Elgan: They are comfortably the most established 9-10 France have ever had, which says something for how unstable it's been in the past, the fact that they are already comfortably the biggest cheer they have. The fact that they know each other so well at Toulouse, they are just established as the main 9-10. So there's this sense that you either have a Bordeaux 9-10 or the Toulouse 9-10. I think we've seen Dupont and Jalibert perhaps not quite excel together in a France team because they're both the one trying to do everything, I think. Did he fall out with Geltier? There have been fallings out. There have been instances where he sort of, it seems, asked not to take part.

7:51Elgan: He was actually in the most recent autumn squad, but he had an injury, which is what prevented him playing. But I think everyone can see the incredible talent Jalibert has. It's whether or not you can get the best out of him outside Dupont marshalling the ship at nine. And you'd think that would be just a phenomenal combination for anyone to have. But it's very different to Antimac, who came in for a lot of criticism during the autumn. Yeah, you wrote about that, didn't you, during the autumn series? Yeah, a lot of the French social media and journalists sort of turned towards Antimac. It's the age old thing with fly halves where they would say when a team is playing badly, the fly half will look bad.

8:31Elgan: And when the team is playing well, the fly half will look good. I think the feeling with Antimac is he has the ability to score 50-meter solo tries to run from behind his own try line like we've seen him do before. But when he's outside Dupont, he's comfortable being the Robin to the Batman. And perhaps when Dupont's not there, he's maybe forgotten quite how to be the Batman in this situation. Whereas if Jalibert is outside Leucou, Jalibert is the star and Leucou is the steady hand at the tiller. So whether when they're all fit and available, you'd expect them just to go back to the Toulouse-Ampere of Dupont and Antimac.

9:06Elgan: But you've always got the promise of what Jalibert could do. And he does it week in, week out for Bordeaux. He is such an exciting flyer. That win in Pretoria is epic, isn't it? Because it wasn't a rotated Bulls team. They had Moody and Pollard and all sorts of, I mean, like Steenkamp on the bench, the prop. And they were pulling away at altitude. dude. I mean, obviously, because they won it last year, but they're going to be one of the mega teams to beat, aren't they, Bordeaux, again? Yeah, of course, of course. I mean, just look at their quality. But it's interesting, teams are starting to win in South Africa.

9:42It didn't happen for about a season, did it? And Northampton won at the Bulls last year.

9:47Elgan: Parashel Stormers was a pointer. it's just... Solana won out there as well. Yeah, it feels like that's no longer this sort of impossible feat that seemed to be when South Africa first joined the competition you talked about the Sharks saving themselves for the Saracens game that's a really interesting game for me, sort of beyond the on-field rugby but they have a shared interest at an ownership level. They do, Marco Mazzotti and those guys. And also with Roc Nation isn't it? The agency. That's right and they jointly employ so the guy behind the Saracens rebrand this sort of we're the original club in North London we're older than Arsenal we're older than Tottenham um he he's jointly employed by Saracens and the Sharks fascinating yeah so he does the same them so I'm if we're not getting some like eye-opening social media build-up to this game then he's obviously got a week off because like this should be this should be the week when he can he can like he can have a lot of fun internally by by like he can run both social media accounts and just start banjoing with himself yeah yeah yeah but the shark we'll get onto it with Andre Estes in a bit but the shark's fascinating because they've basically got most of the spring box and they're terrible like they're down with the Welsh teams aren't they Elgin in the URC and they've won the Challenge Cup didn't they a season or so ago but and they're obviously going to be formidable at home especially when it's going to be 30 odd degrees in Durban 60 odd percent humidity but you don't look at them and go they are a team that are going to go really deep in Europe do you I think the difficulty with the South African teams is that because we haven't seen any of them go properly deep into this competition you can't look back at the pedigree and you can't we know what these South African players are like when they're wearing a green jersey but I think there's still a sense of otherness when they're playing club rugby we don't quite know what the what the big teams are what the the big home records the big away records etc because none None of them have yet gone far in the competition.

11:54Elgan: And the Stormers did at least salvage a win for the South African team this weekend because Bayern, the great team that never lose at home in the top 14, but seem to always lose at home in Europe because they're perhaps not that fussed about it. Well, I looked this up. So Bayern are still unbeaten in 543 days in the top 14 at home. Last defeat, June the 8th, 2024 against Cast. but they lost to the Storm as the first home defeat since last April against the Bulls in the Challenge Cup. So yeah, they liked playing at home but maybe not in Europe. I think when Ron O 'Gara took charge of La Rochelle he talked about having to almost educate the club about how important the Champions Cup is and could be and what a great opportunity it was because as you know so many French teams don't prioritise it above the top 14.

12:46and obviously La Rochelle have won Europe, they haven't won the top 14. But it took O 'Gara coming in with his monster pedigree to sort of impress upon that club why it was an important competition to go and win and how incredible it could be to go and win it. And I feel that nobody in South Africa has really driven that into the South African franchises. The one guy, we've had him on the pod a few times, who really does get it is John Dobson, the Stormers coach. And they've actually now just won, is it five away games in a row? Which is in sort of the modern world, that's quite un-South African franchise team to do, isn't it?

13:22So they should get some credit for that, I guess, shouldn't they?

13:24Elgan: I think when we talk about South African teams in a European competition, I think we always focus on what the European teams do when they go there. But the logistical challenge is the same in both directions, isn't it? Everyone's having to decide, do we send a full-strength team out to South Africa? Do they send a full-strength team out to Europe? When you've got back-to-back games where one's in South Africa and one might be in France or England, there isn't a perfect solution. And both sides of the coin struggle with that. And the Stormers, they're hosting La Rochelle in Cape Town this weekend coming.

13:56And La Rochelle beat a rotated Leicester team, which maybe brings us on to some of the English challenges, I suppose, if we can call them that. But this is, I think, where we just get frustrated every year, don't we? Because if you are really excited about Europe, and Elgin, you wrote a nice historic piece about the 30-year anniversary and all amazing memories, you go, no one's looking at, ah, you remember when Leicester sent that rotated team to La Rochelle? And we look, we understand why they have to do it. It's the timing of the competition, particularly with the England players. They have to have a week off in the next three after an autumn series, don't they?

14:29So teams either pick a Prem game or one of the two European games. Leicester picked this La Rochelle game, which they thought maybe with the full team you wouldn't win anyway, but it just doesn't capture you. like again we would have in a normal weekend gone oh larachelle leicester yeah poe northampton let's do a french doubleheader weekend and you would have got a great poe northampton game but the leicester larachelle game you think why did i bother going to that yeah and it just comes back to the fact that the competition is too big as we said at the start too many english teams qualify where they don't deserve to be there because the league has shrunk so it's it's too bloated there are too many games that teams can afford to lose um and you you don't see it in the champions league in football where they different sport obviously can play twice a week much more easily but um even in the group stages of that where there's a less jeopardy than they used to be because that's expanded as well because that's expanded you're not there's no rotation going on it's still it's still a big deal uh a friend of mine who's a chelsea fan was getting emails from the club offering him great value tickets for the Barcelona game at£400 a seat.

15:34Really? Yeah. And it's like, you know, the equivalent in rugby, it's an opportunity to rest your players. And it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. Like, Jeff Parling should have no choice but to send his best team to La Rochelle because it should matter. And if the Prem have done a deal with England that players should be rested after the autumn, then they have to be rested from a Prem game. The European Cup shouldn't be a competition at any stage where teams can just accept they're going to lose away because getting some home wins will be enough to progress. And there is a high tariff on, like Bordeaux last year, of winning all your home games with loads of bonus points and then getting high seeding.

16:18And then you get that kind of triple advantage of being home, home, home all the way, don't you? But I guess for these sorts of teams like Leicester, like Quinns, like Gloucester, like less so Bath now, because their squad will get onto them in a bit, but maybe even Sarri's, you sort of go, well, they're never going to win all of their games. So they're never going to be the top seed. So then you almost think they go, well, we'll take the risk. Why bother? We'll get to the last 16 anyway, and then have a pop. Or do what Bath did. I'm not saying Bath did it deliberately last year, but they knew, I think they felt that they couldn't compete in the Champions Cup deep and try and win the Prem.

16:56with the squad that they had, winning the Prem was their priority. So they dropped into the Challenge Cup and ended up winning a treble of trophies. They win the Challenge Cup. First major trophy in a long time before they go and win the league. Much better suited for where they were. Much better suited for where Harlequins are, for example, or Gloucester, I would say. And so, back to the same point, too many English teams who don't deserve to be in the Champions Cup or actually want to really be in the Champions Cup. they're all in the wrong competition we were talking about this off air beforehand but my family are Quinns fans and certainly my dad who probably doesn't represent every Quinns fan at the stoop would go I can't be bothered with the Champions Cup we're never going to win it we might get to a quarterfinal or something and get battered why don't we lose enough to get in that slot where you go to the Challenge Cup and have a really good go like Bath did at that and then you look at someone like Chiefs on the weekend you go oh that's quite a good competition for them to target and try and win a trophy isn't it like yeah it's a funny one with all these teams but and if you look at what quins did that was actually without baxter cunning himself marcus smith getting a losing what's well sort of try scoring bonus point for four tries right at the end there was a great result really because last time we went there i think it was 60 nil the leinster and that i actually tweeted when i saw the teams like provocatively maybe but sort of like oh what's a good score here for quins and and lots of the responses were obviously like, keep it under 50 sort of thing.

18:23They did quite well, really, to get out of there with a point, Elgin.

18:28Elgan: Well, you wonder with Harlequins, the type of team, perhaps because their Prem season isn't necessarily going as well as they might have hoped, but also there's no real threat of them getting relegated in this day and age, where you have someone like Northampton, who last season, their Prem season didn't go as well as they hoped, but Europe offers you a competition where your form can almost be completely different to what it is in domestic rugby. And you wonder with teams like Quinns, whether they should view Europe as a competition where they can take on a completely different form and perhaps, you know, prioritise that almost instead of England.

19:02Elgan: Like I said, Northampton defending their title went terribly at the start of last season, but then they ended up epically beating Leinster in a European semi-final and having a right ding-dong against Bordeaux in the final. So it's an opportunity for teams to get something out of their season. And I think back to years when the Dragons, perennially the fourth of the Welsh regions, but they've reached a few Challenge Cup semifinals, which people probably forget. And they've given the likes of Montpellier quite good goes down the years. But it does offer teams an opportunity to turn their season around, or at least change the complexion of their season.

19:37And obviously it falls with different fixtures, but we had the Irish journalists disappointed that Marcus Smith and the others weren't coming to Leinster to have a go at them. And then Leinster weren't very good and Quinns sort of ran them close and they thought, oh, blimey, what would happen if the proper Quinns team had come? And I saw the Irish independent guys, Kian Tracy and those writing, talking to Jason Gilmore and talking to Leo Cullen about this whole rest rotation thing. And obviously the irony with Quinns is that they didn't rest for Gloucester and lost anyway. It was Gloucester's first win of the season.

20:08And they did it the flip way last year, didn't they? Where after the Six Nations, Quinns they had to rest their England players and then they beat Saracens at Tottenham which they never do so it's all a bit unsatisfying and weird isn't it but should we move on to Bath it's a team that we've mentioned already but one that you look at and go that's they've got an ominously good squad and it feels like this is properly their chance to have a really deep go isn't it Alex? Yeah well they've got they've improved a title winning team which is it takes some doing in the salary cap era to have a squad with the depth they had and the bench they had to have you know they're kind of the only prem team who could apply that sort of bomb squad mentality with the guys they had the front rowers in particular on the bench and then they had Carreras and Underhill as well another yeah and they've added Arundel and they've added Carreras this like Chris Harris Chris Harris has come in sort of an injury cover but what a what a kind of steady experienced hand to bring into that midfield as well as laurence joma red path exactly exactly so they're in this rare position which won't last forever because you know they'll have to start losing some big name players in the in the years to come but they are in this sweet spot we talked about it earlier this season i think about in the nfl they talk about team in their super bowl window like before the salary cap bites they have to start um trading the most expensive of players away like Barth are in they are in their title winning window now they've won the the premiership obviously they've won the challenge cup but it feels with the depth they now have and for as long as Thomas Dutoy is with them and I guess the one caveat will be Will Stewart if he he seems to have a bad injury potentially possible Achilles Achilles which would season ender which will remove some of that depth because the the kind of one-two punch of Thomas Dutoy and Will Stewart on the tight head is just no team, no club team can match that I don't think Certainly in England and probably in Europe to have the England's best tight head and a Lions test player and do Tau best tight end in the world probably and be as good on both sides if needed, I mean what a player he is but so they've added the weapon of the creativity and the kind of danger of Carreras the pace and the burgeoning all round game of Henry Arundel the kind of experience and wisdom of Chris Harris I think they're in a position, they're in this sweet spot where they can challenge properly to retain their Prem title and go deep in Europe.

22:59Bath are fascinating aren't they? Because you're so right that they've got this window but they so recently were so not in that window and they've suddenly clicked into it. But we've learnt this from experiences with lots of other teams, haven't we? We say it in the Prem, but you've got to shoot your shot and they did last season. I'll tell you the other thing. So they lost Lee Blackett to England. But bringing in Martin Gleeson, I think, is a really smart piece of recruitment because he was sort of slightly tainted by trying to be an England attack coach in the Eddie Jones era when Eddie Jones was slightly losing control of the England team and it wasn't really working.

23:34but I think Gleason's a really smart signing to build, to take on what Lee Blackett installed there with Finn Russell effectively and take it forward. And so that appears to be quite a seamless transition. That was the one thing that you thought, without Lee Blackett, can they maintain where they were? And it feels like they have. The next thing that's going to be fascinating, sort of extending your Super Bowl metaphor window thing there, is the bit about when they have to break up this squad. Because, as you just said, the salary cap is going to bite them at some point. Thomas de Toi is already leaving.

24:11We've heard on the grapevine that French clubs are circling around Will Stewart because he's out of contract in the summer and maybe his injury might actually scupper a move like that. But that would be fascinating if he were to choose to go to the top 14 for, let's say, half a million quid and sacrifice a World Cup spot for England, which he definitely he's definitely going to go to the world cup isn't he if it yeah as a premier tight end whether that means he's on the bench or starting you don't know but he's clearly going to be in that squad but there are going to be others in that similar boat now over the next 18 months and like you talk to coach the other teams they go man bruce craig's got a job on his hands because he can't keep all of these 40 players well paid and happy and they're going to have to break them up at some point it's it's how extensive that breakup is i guess yeah and if you just delve into the numbers a little bit just to give one example so thomas du toit will be on big money as a big name south african what would what would our ballpark figure reckon be like 400k at least yeah that'd be my estimate now when so guy pepper who's just started all three all four of england's autumn tests when he was picked up by bath from newcastle he was on an academy contract in Newcastle.

25:25Which would be about 50 grand? Well I think the minimum is 30. I think he was on about 60 when he came to Bath. That's mad isn't it? To see him now. Yeah and so he's he'll have re-signed but that's the balance that they're having to strike. So Pepper's value will only go up. They can't keep him on 60 grand and they haven't kept him on 60 grand for the duration of of his time at the club so his star is rising his value is going up so therefore um they need to find that space and they've the way they structure contracts nowadays it's not just you know players value can go up through the course of their contract they can they can find ways of balancing backloading backloading that kind of thing and that and i think there's both have been really clever and how they've done it but it means it gives them this window because the bigger name the bigger name players the higher paid players will have to go now De Toit's going if Will Stewart is fielding offers of half a million pounds a year in France then Bath are going to have to if they want to keep him now obviously there's a cachet of staying in England because you get to play for England and I would say that half a million in France isn't loads more than he than a new contract he could sign in the Prem when you add on his England money So that's about 150, 160 grand a year, plus let's say he gets 300, 350 from Bath.

26:50Yeah. Pretty much there. It's about the same. Assuming Bath can afford it. And you're playing for Bath. Nowadays, you're like, well, I'm playing for Bath, best team in England, as opposed to Bath 13th in the league. And he's never struck me as the kind of guy who would give it all up to just go and earn a bit more money. I mean, obviously, we're talking really, really good money for most people in this country, but if it was slightly more... Not for me, no, it's not enough for me. If they wanted me, I'd ask for 600. If it was slightly more in France than it was in England, but you also got to play for England, you wouldn't go.

27:23I don't see why he would go. But what I mean is that Bath are on the hook for... They're going to have to pay Will Stewart more money in his new contract than he's on right now if they want to keep him. And that's the balance they're having to strike the whole way along as they manage their squad under the cap. Interesting. would we say like a sneaky good win for Bristol Elgin at the Scarlets that looked like tough and wet and a bit horrible but there's some lovely touches in there like Mata and Rovovo were just taking the mickey a bit weren't they in that one and Zamit got the winner

27:56Elgan: yeah yeah again like I say the Scarlets they got their first league win of the season last weekend so this is an example for them with all the dismay going on in Welsh rugby this was an opportunity for them to put a slightly better complexion on things and didn't quite achieve it. Yeah, Louis Riesam, I think he described it as the worst try he'd ever scored. I think it was from one metre and entirely on his knees. So it wasn't exactly one for the highlights. I know there was some frustration at, and again, this is the sort of thing we've been talking about every week at the moment, but I noted down the time on the clock when this happened.

28:32Elgan: The Scarletts had a try scored at 12.37 and then at 14.01, it was ruled out for a knock-on that had happened almost two minutes prior to that and that's the sort of thing that just grinds a lot of people's gears when you're going back two minutes for a knock-on which I personally didn't even think was that clear and obvious and which the referee had said at the time play on nothing clear for me so there were a few incidents like that in in that game which made it a bit of a stop start in the rain and the sort of thing that just just irritates people and then takes away from the enjoyment of the rugby.

29:02And the thing about that which has happened so many times is that then they decide to do nothing but don't put the clock back to where they stop the game they've let like let that what minute and half or so to run and then they don't go like nfl would they'd go timer can you change the clock back to well yeah 14 minutes whatever so take a situation where a try scored the convert the clock starts to tick down for the conversion uh and then the conversion is taken and then the tmo comes in that will often happen you've wasted 30, 60 seconds and then the try is chalked off because there's been a knock on three phases earlier you are a minute, two minutes, the clock's been running for that entire time but they don't put that time back on on the clock and I first raised it at the World Cup happened at the World Cup, I mentioned it to World Rugby then and they thought it's an anomaly It's not that much of an anomaly it happens quite a lot doesn't it, that there's a decision that's chalked off No, it does.

30:03I mean, it's an anomaly that they don't correct it. As in, it seems an obvious thing that the referees... Do you remember the famous one was the ex-Rassing COVID Champions Cup final where Nigel Owens had a, what was the time at the end when the pen went and all that, wasn't it? And Austin Healy mentioned it at the end of the England-Argentina game in November on commentary because it was similar issues. and it becomes about managing the clock, very NFL-like, but it becomes about managing the clock towards the end. And that should be a big part of the game. And I just think rugby should just kind of modernise a little bit and realise that there is a lot of wasted time.

30:50We don't want these matches to last three hours, but there are occasions when tries are chalked off. We saw one, I was in Ireland, South Africa, it happened. And tries are chalked off, but the clock doesn't go back to the point of that try being scored. So I think this was a theory that Oston Haney came up with himself, so I won't claim it as my own, ages ago. And I've always felt it was just clever. And I'm sure there's unintended consequences, as there always are, with these little tweaks. But his view, I remember ages ago, was every restart of the game. So the clock should just be off every time where the ball's out of play.

31:28and therefore so like if you have a line out the clock starts again automatically when the ball comes in or struck by the hooker or kicked off a tee or kicked a touch so he wants 80 minutes ball in play well yeah ish so given that in the 80 minute game now we currently have like 30 to 35 I mean you get more fatigue but an 80 minute ball in play game would mean the actual match lasting even longer in the NFL game yeah I know where it's coming from that's the unintended consequence There is dead time in the game. I think sometimes you have to accept it. The point that I'm making is if you're removing an element of the game that has just unfolded and you're saying that no longer counts, that passage of play no longer counts because there was a knock-on or a penalty or whatever, then you should also put the time back on.

32:21Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you can't remove a section of the game and then just have two minutes lost into the ether. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty strange.

32:28Elgan: For me, I just find it very unedifying for a try to be ruled out a minute and 58 after the incident was seen and the referee said, nothing clear, carry on. Well, it happens post-conversion regularly. I've seen it happen many times where they've been lined up for the restart and they go back. And I just find that as a spectacle, because you've seen sporting action happen, I just find it unedifying. You've reminded me, there was that sort of pointless one that happened in the Poe-Northampton game and George Furbank was really annoyed about it because he was like, you're just reacting to the crowd whistling.

33:01Like something, the play would continue and then the crowd would see a replay that they were shown on the screen and then they'd go, whatever. And then the ref would look at it, Piardi. And the one, it was particularly where basically the ball was sort of caught just as it was going out of touch and chucked back in to play. And the lines would put his flag up so the Northampton team stopped. But actually it wasn't out. But then if you'd continued the phases is on it went into touch anyway but having basically had the line out they went oh hang on the replay showed he was never in touch to start with so let's have a post-grum and to be fair to Andy Goode on the on the telly was like what was the point the ball had like a phase later gone out into touch anyway so just crack on and have the line out now we should mention briefly The Scottish teams.

33:53Great win for Edinburgh. I mean, Glasgow should be one of those teams that really should be going deep with the amount they spend and the quality they've got. And they beat Sale, who had, without Ford and Asher, Pociford, Dior and Roebuck and a few other injured guys. But Edinburgh beating Toulon comfortably in the rain was quite fun. Props to Edinburgh for winning that game. And then decent wins for Gloucester as well and Saracens, but we'll probably do a bit more on Saracens in a bit because next up, On the pod, we're going to get Andre Esterhazen on, talk about the Sharks, talk about his hybrid role, playing both in the back line and the back row, and all sorts of things, South Africa, Sharks, everything else.

34:33So next up on the pod, Andre Esterhazen.

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36:26Okay, so next on the pod, we're delighted to be joined by Springboks and Sharks. What do we call you, Andre? Center or back row? Andre Esterhazen? Whatever you want. Depends on the day. Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe we'll get on to a bit of chat about that. But tell us how life in Durban is at the moment. You're waiting for Saracens to visit you with the Sharks in the Champions Cup. What weather are they expecting to come and see? Yeah, well, in Durban, you never know nowadays. One day, it's extremely hot like today. It's like 33 degrees and then the next day, it's raining and windy. So, yeah, it's basically very tropical at the moment.

37:08either storm or the nicest weather or freakishly hot so we'll see what happens on Saturday. Maybe rain, maybe hot but definitely humid. How are you guys viewing Europe? Because obviously you've won the Challenge Cup a couple of years ago not doing the best in the URC but massive game which will be good fun to play against Saracens on the weekend lost or waited to lose but with a rotated team. What's the view of the Champions Cup from you guys this season? Yeah, I mean, obviously we take the Champions Cup seriously as any other team do. I don't think South African fans as yet comprehend how big this competition actually is.

37:51Me playing in the UK obviously know a lot about this. But yeah, obviously we're preparing well for this game this weekend. It's going to be a big one, especially against Saracens. my old London friends. So, yeah, we're looking forward to that. Yeah, but like I said, half the team is still travelling back. They're only arriving tomorrow. That's why half the team stays here. Otherwise, you get here on a Wednesday and you only have two days to prepare. That's why we split it up a bit like this. You mentioned the logistics there for the Sharks and the reason why you rotated in Toulouse. Do you find it still taking a bit of time?

38:39You said maybe the fans don't quite get how massive Europe is and everything else. For South African teams to work out how to plot a way through the Champions Cup. I know the Stormers have taken away win and buy on, haven't they? But it's not worked all the way for everyone yet, has it, in South Africa? Yeah, I think it's just the logistics around it. It's just, obviously... I mean, we just came back off tour with the international side now. And then, I mean, if you play a game there on a Sunday and you have to play in South Africa, you can only fly back on a Monday night and arrive on Tuesday.

39:20Basically, Wednesday, you can't train. You can only train Thursday and have captains. So basically, that's one session and captains, which is obviously not ideal, and especially the way we travel, the route we travel, doesn't make sense. I think hopefully in the future, logistically, it's like two away games and then two home games. So it makes the travel obviously easier. Then you're away for two weeks and you're at home for two weeks. It just makes logistically more sense. As a South African side, then we will be able to play our best players in every game. But for us to travel, come back and then risk another game, already risking travelling there because it's tough to go to Toulouse and win away from home against a very top-class side.

40:13So, yeah, we basically just said let's split resources and, yeah, prepare well for this game as well. Because obviously you've seen it on the other side, playing for Quinns. I think, did you go down to the Stormers for that? It was a knockout game, wasn't it? So slightly different. Yeah, that was a knockout game, which is obviously slightly different. It was in the round of 16. Yeah. But I guess, can you understand why there's still frustration on both sides of the hemispheres? Because obviously it's the other way around. I think they obviously don't understand why we're sending teams like that over there and thinking we're not taking serious but we actually are but obviously from our side as well we want to compete every weekend and we want to Champions Cup probably the best club rugby trophy to win and everyone wants to win it and play well in that competition so that's why we're targeting this game and then hopefully the next the next two games we can go for them full as well.

41:24Any favourite memories of Saracen's games gone by? No, no. I haven't beaten them yet. Okay. I only beat them when I left so maybe that's not the problem. I think Quinn's fans would say we prefer to have Andre still in the team but there you go. We touched on it at the start your hybrid role that you've developed this year. And I'm fascinated to see, almost like the opposite of it, you might be facing Ben Earl and he could end up in the centre and you could be in the back row. Rugby's becoming a funny old game like that, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Well, luckily my hybrid role is mostly staying at the international level and not at club level.

42:14So yeah, we'll see, unless some cards are being dealt. but yeah hopefully just staying at centre Andre how did Razzi broach the subject of a position switch or a hybrid role with you did he just chuck you a bib and send you straight into a mauling session and say right you're a forward now go and get stuck in with the lads up front or did he have to sell the idea to you at all no he basically called me during the UFC after a game we played and said listen this is what we're thinking is what we want to do and what we're planning. Am I open to this? And yeah, I say to him, definitely, if it gives me more opportunity and I can play more regularly, then obviously I'll do it.

43:07I'll give it a go and we'll see how it goes. And yeah, obviously worked out not too bad. How have you found training with the forwards and those mauling and line-out sessions? No, it's not great, to be honest with you. It's tough. I think the toughest thing is not the game, it's training against your own players. I mean, especially if those guys make each other mad and rally each other up before training, it gets quite tough in there. So, yeah, probably Tuesdays is the worst when the mauling sessions get quite rough. But, yeah, that's why at club level I want to stay. I don't want to train that hard for the whole year.

43:53We were saying that with Quarka Smith being used in the midfield and the box had gone 7-1 with forwards covering backs, now you've got backs covering forwards. You could even be a 4-4 bench. Did it almost not take you by surprise when Razzy mentioned it because you're now so used to him and the coaches trying to think outside the box, trying to be innovative, trying to push the envelope of where the game is and how people think about the game? Yeah, well, in a way, you're surprised, but you're also not surprised because you know something like that can happen, especially coming from them. They're always innovative and thinking outside the box, like you say, thinking of scenarios.

44:39I mean, you would have thought that we get two red cards in the end of season or in the Autumn Internationals and need a flank and a 12 at the same time. And it happened twice in a row. So, yeah, it was quite funny how it worked out. But, yeah, it's basically the perfect scenario for what they've tried to do with me. Did you ever play in the forwards growing up when you were young? Or were you always a back? No, I was always a back. And then I tried to play flank when I was under 21. Jake wanted me to try flank. Jake was. Yeah, played 10 minutes there. And they busted it. I went towards Steele and they busted up and opened my whole mouth.

45:32And I said, no, no, no. The second game, I played 40 minutes. And by that time, when I was younger, my tempo wasn't great. So I said to him, listen, I can't be this close to contact the whole time. I need to either move back to centre or go off. I'm going to get a red card or something. But do you love the fact that the sport's changing like this and where you've got England thinking about doing it with Henry Pollock, perhaps, in the future? And as we mentioned earlier, Ben Earl. it's just fascinating it adds new dimensions to the sport right? Yeah I mean Iraq needs to it can't always stay the same otherwise you're not going to get new results so I think obviously you need to be innovative you need to bring something new but if you expect or something else that other teams aren't doing or having so yeah be the first to beat the curve Absolutely yeah talking of that and the news that we had last week back end of last week the Razzie signed on until 2031 you all must be quite delighted that he's sticking around for another couple of World Cups I haven't seen that yet to be honest but yeah that's good news so they they announced on Friday that he's signed up until 2031 so he's going to keep going and going and going yeah well that's good news probably well I'm not going to see that World Cup I would say.

47:05But it's all else for me. You don't know, you might evolve into a prop in future. Like, you just keep going. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Too tall for that. We've been fascinated about the box this year. Like, how much pride have you taken in the year that you guys have had and staying at number one and getting that top seeding, obviously, for the World Cup next time and everything else? Like, what are the little bits you can pick out from the 2025 the box have had that you're really proud of? I think obviously during the season we knew it was going to be a tough one. There's obviously a few, not easy games, but games people think we should win.

47:47But playing against Italy is always a gamble. I mean, we had two tests here at the beginning of the year and it was quite a tough test despite scores. and then obviously the championship was so tough one week you beat the team they beat you and same with New Zealand Argentina, everyone beat everyone basically it was quite a tough competition and going to New Zealand winning New Zealand there with the comeback after our first loss there that was probably one that stuck out for me other boys skipped when the cards were down We always pitched up and took things to the next level. And then obviously with the Autumn Internationals, the cards we were dealt with, the cards, etc.

48:41The character that we showed to still stick in those games and take it through to the end, that's probably the biggest thing for me. Feels from watching from this side of the world, Andre, that there were two real statements made. Obviously, you retain the rugby championship, but the way that you won in Wellington in a record score and then the way in a totally different style, but the way you won in Dublin, sort of grinding Ireland into the dirt up front, they were pretty emphatic messages to the rest of the world game. And then I remember after the game in Dublin, Razzie saying, this was just our year of consolidation.

49:23next year is the year to innovate and to drive this team forward. That's a real statement of intent, isn't it, from the box midway through the World Cup cycle? Yeah, I think the good thing is, if you look at the team, I mean, we can play an expansive game, we can play a tight game, we can play a physical game. I think the team is so versatile in terms of whatever style you want to play for this weekend or whoever you're playing against, we can put a team on that can do that. So if you want to run the ball, if you want to play tight game and just kick and physically dominate a set piece, we can do that as well.

50:08I think the versatility in the group and the innovation is probably the best thing about us, which I think helped us a lot. What did you make of the World Cup draw that we had in the last few days? It's thrown up some pretty juicy games, particularly for the box. Yeah, well, it just seems like it is what it is. We always get it like that. The thing is, the World Cup, somewhere along the line, you're going to have to beat the best anyway, whether it be in the quarterfinal or the final. you have to beat all the other teams which is ultimately yeah for me I don't care who you play, win the thing is to win the World Cup you still need to beat everyone you can't go past someone to get to the top so yeah that's the ultimate message for me so it doesn't really matter about the draw or how it works out how it plans out you still want to reach the final it doesn't matter who you play It is a long way off and they have to do the draw early for reasons that we know but when I asked you that question and the potential of knockout games against the All Blacks and France there was a smile on your face of sort of anticipation and excitement like there's two years to build up to a couple of real big Humdinger games that the world will be watching yeah I mean I was just mad because everyone's speaking about it and that's all you read everywhere and stuff but yeah like I said for me it's obviously anticipating the thing is we prepare now that we see that we can do it in different places we can beat them away from home and that's obviously the belief that we build within ourselves and we've seen now that we can do it and obviously we want to carry that confidence through to the next one last one Andre and then we'll let you go because I know you're a busy man but the next time you play Test Rugby might be against England avoided them for a little while but that would be one to aim for wouldn't it it would be quite fun to host England in Joburg yeah that's going to be good looking forward to that I think everyone's looking forward to that I think everyone wished we played them this year I think the Springboks also wished that so yeah Put them in their place is that what you mean?

52:53I don't know just looking forward to playing against them What have you made of them this season? They've won all but one game but obviously haven't played you guys Yeah they've been very consistent I know a lot of the players well so obviously I think they do really have good players and a good coach and a good structure now and they're obviously building and getting better every year so yeah that's I think England rugby is in a good place in a good spot but yeah we're looking forward to play them next year Yeah well I think it's probably safe to say that South African rugby at test level certainly is in a good place as well so and you're at the key part of it Andre really appreciate all your time on the RUC today and good luck for Saracens on the weekend.

53:44Lovely. Cheers. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

53:50OK, great to have Andre Esterhaisen on the pod. What a mad season he's had, really. A year, playing both in the back row and the back line. And I was asking for some sources, let's say, for questions for him, which I didn't have the balls to ask him. but apparently he's so good that coaches let him smoke a watermelon vape before and during half time which is quite fun be quite fun to be that good there people just go oh do you know what just crack on mate yeah there's a few french players of will have a history of that elgin

54:25Elgan: julien dupuy very famously was seen in his pants having a cigarette uh just before the penalty shootout i think it was leicester cardiff but some of my favorite and i don't endorse smoking at all but some of my favorite rugby cigarette footage it was a french final in the 1980s that's the most elgin sentence i've ever heard some of my favorite french smoking was in a 1980s french final at the parc de prance uh where it was uh certainly ajean because philippe sellar was in it and i you've i'm going deep into the wells of my memory here for exactly which game it was but there was a penalty shootout in a french final one year and many of the players were just smoking cigarettes on the field while it was going on well let's let's before we wrap up let's just rattle through things that have happened since you two last recorded when i was away and actually yes you were right i was in norwegian fjords you said i think he's in norwegian fjords and i was like yeah it was actually um but yeah we had a world cup draw and look it happened a while ago so we won't run through absolutely all cough and spit of who's got who but um i have a small discussion for you both is are we at the point now where it's like the box are going to win the next world cup looking at where they are so how on earth are they stopped discuss well yeah that is where we are because they're so far ahead of everyone else that the challenge for the rest of the world is to is to work out how to topple them and that's why on the face of it given current rankings and form, the draw fell so kindly for England because the way that you would foresee it unfolding as things stand right now, two years out, they would avoid playing South Africa until the final, which is massive because South Africa have knocked England out of, I think, four World Cups in the last seven in the knockout stages.

56:20Well, 23 semi, 19 final, 15 England and Gale groups, so not that one. Not 11, because they didn't get out of the quarter. 2007 final. 2007 final. 99 quarterfinal. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. So, and South Africa are the team, they're the team that people have to work out how to knock off. And as we've said through the autumn, they have built themselves a squad right now with coaching expertise, depth of players, and variety of players to win a game in any way they, well, as they showed in Ireland, any way they choose to win the game. And therefore, they are at the vanguard of the sport. They are where England were in the summer of 2003.

57:13They were setting the standards. England had flipped the established order by defeating the best of the Southern Hemisphere under Clive Woodward to be the point where they were being chased by everyone else. Now, a lot of the innovations then were, obviously, Jason Robinson's recruitment, massive. But it was even down to the kit. Tight shirts. The kit that, you know, Jason Robinson got grabbed by the jersey up at Murrayfield too many times. And Woodward was like, this is ridiculous. And so the tight football style rugby jerseys begin because of that. He was searching for those... Enemy of pot bellies everywhere.

57:52in the States yeah yeah he was searching for those marginal gains but England were at the head of the game back then and South Africa are there now now miles ahead miles ahead so there's two years for everyone to try and and and overhaul them now what's the challenge is that Razzi has has formed around him a supreme coaching team the sense is that Jacques Nienabar will end up being involved with them at some point they'll become their like 38th assistant catch. So they've just got ideas. They've got a wealth of ideas and creativity. They've got, as we heard with Andre, switching an inside centre to become a batarou instead of the other way round, which is what England are doing.

58:40Having gone towards the 7-1 bench of forwards now, you could argue they're fielding 4-4 on the bench. Or like a 6-2 and a 7-1 at the same time. I'm constantly looking for ways to push the envelope. And that means that everyone else is not only having to catch up, but then try and find their own way of surpassing them. And they've got two years. It feels tough to me right now, providing the core of their team can remain fit and central to what they're doing. And again, like Peter Stefft-Toyt doesn't play any club rugby. He only plays tests rugby. Like seven or eight tests a year. So they're managing him perfectly.

59:22Sia Khalisi is more... He has a higher workload, but then he often comes off after 50 minutes in a test match. So they can manage that through. As things stand, I struggle to see how anyone will go into that World Cup as favourites beyond South Africa. Oh, yeah. Then it just opens up the kind of... Randomness. The randomness of a one-off game and a couple of red cards and a potential reign or whatever. but yeah it's hard to see here's my sort of three part theory of how they don't do it one is that the squad just gets a bit old and the people that are there to replace them aren't actually as good as Peter Steff, Dutoy, Khaleesi, Etzabeth etc where at the moment it looks like they're very good backups but when Khaleesi, Peter Steff, Etzabeth are in their mid-30s are they actually that level again?

1:00:15second bit is sort of a two part bit of talking earlier where we were talking about being hoisted by Aaron Bittard, do they almost get too clever for their own good? I.e. Well, so firstly, you could look at their pool and you could go, that's a really weak pool. And then they suddenly hit, and then a last 16 game that will be really easy. And then they suddenly hit the All Blacks in the quarterfinal. And if they're not quite ready for it, because they've just walked through Italy, Georgia, Romania in a last 16 match against, what would it be, a second-placing team, then yeah they'd play like Uruguay or Portugal wouldn't they?

1:00:51Elgan: I think the thing we can't you can't analyse you can't yet countenance exactly what it will be is a quarterfinal potentially against the All Blacks where New Zealand would probably come in as rank underdogs which doesn't happen for them very often you think about what England did in that 2019 semi-final against New Zealand where New Zealand had won the past two tournaments I don't think people expected that performance will there be a team whether it's New Zealand, whether it's France, whether it's, as people mischievously have suggested, South Africa lose their pool game and end up facing Italy, England rather, in the round of 16.

1:01:24Elgan: I think they could... Because they have lost pool games at the last two World Cups, which is a slightly different format. Being too clever for their own good. They could try and go, oh, do you know what? That'd be clever, wouldn't it? Throw the Italy game and then draw England in the last 16, beat them, and then England just go and beat them. And then they, oh no, I messed it up. Surely not. I think that's even beyond Razzi Erasmus. But yes, I think the prospect of a team viewing South Africa as a cup final, before a cup final, is obviously something that perhaps even this Springboks team going for a third in a row, they might be undone on the occasion.

1:02:01Elgan: And you just can't count yet for when that might happen. But it's something that is sitting there as a prospect. As things stand, it would give the All Blacks two years to work out a plan for one game. the kind of Eddie Jones formula for Japan going to face the box. The Eddie Jones formula for England playing the All Blacks, as you say, in 19. You can plot it to give them a long build-up. I do think, I think if Italy, if South Africa were to lose, as things stand, current rankings, current form, if South Africa were to lose to Italy, you'd have to call in the integrity officers. Like, it's one thing losing to Ireland in a humdinger of a pool match when Ireland are one of the favourites to win the World Cup, as happened in France 2023, be quite another to kind of wave the white flag against Italy and land yourself on the wrong side of the draw.

1:02:53I think that would be, I guess, not beyond the realms of possibility because it wouldn't be breaking any rules. It would be Razzie gamesmanship to the nth degree if he decided it was better for the box. but it would leave a pretty sour taste in everyone else's mouth. Well, so two last little bits to round up before we leave you. One probably bad, one probably good. Bad, Etzabeth, you teed it up on the pod last week. His gouging suspension was 18 weeks down to 12 for his decent record. He hadn't had a ban since 2012. He was found to be intentional. There were lots of conspiracy theories about him being gouged by Alex Mann, which were proved entirely untrue.

1:03:36Shock. because he said he wasn't. Shot campaign from Springbok fans on social media. But the slight sort of nuance-y bit to it is that he's out to April, but South African player welfare regs nowadays say that he, as someone who plays a 12-month season, has to have eight weeks off. So it's quite neat timing, really. Probably really loses four games. It's too short a ban as well for me. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty gratuitous. If you're done for intentional contact with the eye, I don't know how that can be a mid-range offence. And you don't tick the deterrent box. You know, there's a, we need to show deterrent.

1:04:14How's that not? I don't know. I don't know why that's a mid-range offence. 18. So there was a big explanation in the judgment about why he didn't get the sort of customary 50 % off, which I would applaud them for that. They basically said he didn't show full culpability. yeah and they were they were messing around with with their statements to the panel delay and the delay exactly all of that so he got six weeks off instead of um nine but it should have for me it should have gone in as a top range so mid-range it starts 18 weeks and then goes up or down from there for me it should have to go in as a as a top end offense and then bring it down from there so I'd have had it 24 down to 18 probably.

1:04:59That's what I thought would happen because I don't know how if you prove that he has deliberately gone and... Put his thumb in the bloke's eye. I suppose the only thing he hasn't done is stuck it into his brain. If that's the difference between mid-range and high then I think we're in trouble. Yeah, you do look at it and go, what on earth is a top-end defence? Exactly. Do you have to take it out? Exactly. So it should have been top end and then apply a little bit of mitigation because he acknowledged it was a red card down to 18. So he's got off lightly, I think, both in terms of the number of matches.

1:05:37And then, as you say, did anyone actually prosecute the fact that he wasn't going to play in half these games anyway? Yeah. Obviously not. Yeah. Well, there you go. That's that wrapped up for now. Hopefully we don't have to keep talking about that for a bit because it was a bit of a grubby incident. the last thing positive thing you wrote about in last week Alex was the nation champ on ITV free to air rugby for all of the internationals for next year pretty much so we learned that we all thought TNT had taken the autumn internationals for the last two years as a precursor to adding the summer tests to then become the home of the nation's championship but we understand that basically ITV have blindsided TNT by coming in with a bid of around£90 million to show the first two editions of this, which means that every England game in 2026 will be live on free-to-air television.

1:06:39I don't know which channel they'll all be on with ITV, but they'll be on an ITV channel. Well, because July are going to be during the football World Cup. But you'll have... Maybe a different time of day. ITV is now the home of men's international rugby, certainly through to the World Cup. They don't yet have the rights for the next World Cup, but they've shown every World Cup since 1991. So assuming they add that, then they are unquestionably the home of men's Test Rugby. They'll have 10 of the 15 Six Nations games, including all England games. They'll show all the Nations champ games, so the summer tests and the November tests and the three days of the final weekend at Twickenham.

1:07:18which I think the Six Nations Limited who were doing the deal we felt like they had reached a sort of compromise in their own mind that keep the Six Nations on free-to-air for the reach and then sell the Nations Championship to pay TV for the money but TNT who had a period of exclusivity to bid for this because they had already had November chose not to put in a bid so we're told because the asking price or the valuation they felt was too high. ITV came in and happily paid it, which means that Six Nations now have the best of both worlds. They have a valuation that they wanted, which they thought they might only get from pay TV.

1:08:05And they have eyeballs to the point where we think the England-New Zealand game, they don't release actual viewing figures. But TNT compared the England All Blacks test in November to one of their Premier League broadcasts, which we think is around the million mark. Six Nations time, the England-France game peaked at six million on ITV. So already you're opening it up and people don't have to go searching for it. It's there, easily accessible. You get a lot of passing traffic, casual sports viewers, which is exactly what rugby needs for viewership and for getting more and more people in the game.

1:08:47ITV Live Sport does brilliantly for advertising and international rugby. It's proven to do so for ITV, which is why they came in with this massive bid. So yeah, free-to-air coverage of certainly all England games and almost all of every other game next year and the year after. I'm imagining now the beer garden all-dayer next July for people who are going to watch England-South Africa rugby and then like England-Mexico, last 16, World Cup match. It's going to be, and some of those cake-offs are late, aren't they? In the football, yeah. That's going to be a sloppy day for some people. But there you go, some good news in rugby.

1:09:25Well, hey, that's been a pretty busy pod. We've had Andre Estes on lots of Champions Cup chat and plenty else besides, but for now, we'll leave you to it. There's plenty more Champions Cup to come and then we're into Christmas, which is always good fun, isn't it? We'll probably do a, should we do a World 15 again before Christmas? Okay, I've got loads of good thoughts for that. Elgin, we need to involve you We need some French smokers in there somewhere, surely.

1:09:46Elgan: I don't know if Jean-Baptiste Goblet is a smoker, but he can go in at 14 immediately. But yeah, thanks so much to Elgin. Thanks so much, Alex. This has been The Ruck from The Times and The Sunday Times. Follow and subscribe, tell all your friends, and listen again to us next Monday. Cheers.

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