Is this the Lions team for the first test?

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1:32This is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times coming to you from Canberra, where we are now ahead of the Lions facing the Brumbies midweek off the back of the victory over the Waratahs. Our last pod was from the stands in Sydney. Alfie Reynolds here, Alex Lowe and Will Kelleher are alongside me. and another day on tour, gents. Another team news, but a big one, Alex. It feels like.

1:57Alex Lowe: Yeah, we came to you from the Sydney Football Stadium a couple of days ago. We're now in the Canberra Central Social Club, which is quite a cool little place. Open till 2am, which is actually useful for our deadlines. But also we're the only people here. We are the only people here. Yeah, big team selection. The team selection that we had flagged pretty much from Perth onwards, that this was going to be, if not nailed down the test team, because I don't think it's quite nailed down, and we'll get into why that is, but it is the strongest line-up that Andy Farrell has picked on this tour. It's got all the makings of a test team, bar a couple of positions that I think a couple of players still need to secure that test jersey, but if this was the team that ran out to play Australia in the first test in Brisbane, you wouldn't be too surprised.

2:44Alfie Reynolds: 14, gutted that it's 14, we revealed on the Ruck on Saturday night. slash Sunday morning for us. Yeah. So the one that we weren't, it was the flip of a coin, was Kinghorn or Keenan.

2:57Alex Lowe: Yeah, I've got the logic wrong on that one. I assumed he'd play Keenan again because he'd missed a lot of rugby because of injury and then fell ill at the wrong time, whereas Kinghorn's been playing all the way through for Toulouse. However, he flipped it around that although Keenan hasn't played much, he has trained a lot with the team, whereas Kinghorn's on a bit of a fast track. So, yeah, we got the logic slightly wrong on that one. But otherwise, the rest of the selection named itself, really, because it's his strongest team at the moment. So to run through the team, for those that haven't seen it, it's Genge, Sheehan and Furlong in the front row.

3:31Atoje and McCarthy in the second row, with Chessom at six. Conan and Tom Curry in the back row. Gibson Park and Finn Russell, the halfbacks. The centre combination is the Irish combination of Aki and Ring Rose. and then Lowe Freeman on the wings and Kinghorn at fullback.

3:50Alfie Reynolds: It looks, as you say, the best yet. And as Andy Farrell has said, now prove it. Everyone's speculating like us that this is the test team. So he said, I'm aware of all that speculation, so it's on the players to go and prove that you are the test guys. And as he said, people can play themselves in and play themselves out. Well, it was quite an interesting press conference because we all kind of know that this is very close to what he's thinking for the test team, even if it isn't absolutely cemented in at the moment. But Andy Farrell, understandably, Alex, had to play the game of saying, well, no, you know, places are still up for grabs and people can play their way in and play their way out, which actually brings us on to an interesting part of the tour, isn't it?

4:33Because from a player's perspective, the players will know they'll have a good idea of it and their chances to prove themselves are running out as well.

4:40Alex Lowe: Yeah, they are. I mean, there are, you know, they're running out of time to get in the first test team. But as Sam Warburton always says, you don't end the series with the team that you start the series. So one of the managerial challenges is to keep everyone engaged because you might need them. And I think in the open side flanker position in particular, that's critical. Because right now, Tom Curry has the opportunity to secure that jersey. if we think that they're more likely to go in with a Chesson at six rather than two sort of sevens, because they have tried that a few times and they were going to try against the Waratahs with Pollock at six.

5:18Alex Lowe: But at the moment, Curry's in. He has the opportunity, but he knows that Jack Morgan is breathing down his neck, playing really well. They've got the kind of the more dynamic runners of Pollock and Ben Earl. Josh van der Fleer. who will come off the bench on Wednesday night with a lot to prove himself. So it's one of the most competitive positions. I think as you go through that 15, there's a lot who right now, Andy Farrell will know in his own mind, can't share, and we're pretty sure the spine of that team is set. But there are a few positions where I think a decision is still to be made. The balance of the back row is one of them.

5:58Alex Lowe: So who plays six, who plays seven? what style of six and seven do they have I think Tyg Ferlong has the opportunity to secure the tight head position Farrell spoke effusively of of him and his contribution he's just had a year a bit like Courtney had four years ago where he really hardly played for Leinster or Ireland but everyone knows what he can do so they've got him on the tour and they're

6:21Alfie Reynolds: trying to get him ready for that first test so yeah I think there are four of the players where you think they could play themselves in or out and i think they're king horn at fullback furlong at tight head less so now that we've heard farrell speak because i think he's one of those where it's like default to furlong unless he has a total mare which is unlikely because he's a world-class six test lion and then chesham and curry i think because going back to the the open sides thing there's five options whereas in lots of other positions it's sort of like oh lord if a 12 goes down or a 10 or finn russell goes down or gibson park goes down perhaps you're starting to go oh dear okay whereas five options you've got curry van der vleer pollock earl and morgan like you'd be kind of happy with any of them so that's why it's incumbent on curry who's got the jersey on Wednesday to do exactly what Farrell said and like go on then prove that you're the seven.

7:25Lads it really interests me that Tom Curry is named in this team because I felt on this tour on form in all honesty that Jack Morgan and Josh van der Vlier were almost the form sevens but listening to both Tom Curry and Andy Farrell today where Andy Farrell spoke about him really well and said it was almost more the unseen moments the stuff off the ball that maybe don't get the highlights that Jack Morgan's turnovers get is what is really impressing him about Tom Curry so is Tom Curry we think higher in the pecking order than I certainly thought and I'd imagine many

8:00Alfie Reynolds: other people so there's a lot to consider here isn't there because Curry hasn't had the flashy moments and actually doesn't really do the flashy moments that he used to when he was like 23 and was diving into breakdowns and winning turnovers and was a kamikaze kid with Sam Munderhill that's not really the 2025 Tom Curry is it he's like an absolute workhorse who wants to come off the field dead basically like completely spent and actually we sort of asked him about this because he was one of the players we were able to speak to earlier and he was like I don't care what my stats look like or anything I just want the team to win and I think so I think that's that's a nice tick in the foul box of like team man the second bit with him is that he's one of the people in this team that has played for the Lions in a test match before and there are not very many of those in this squad.

8:52Alfie Reynolds: So Bundiaki's one of them, Finn Russell's one of them, albeit for 50, 60, 70 minutes, something like that. Then you've got Tyg Firling has got six caps, as has Maro Toje and Jack Coney who played eight in the last series and that's it. That's not a lot of Lions experience so maybe there's a value there.

9:12Alex Lowe: I think there's also, if you look back at how they've selected the seven, Van der Vleer has had a chance, Morgan's had a chance in the last couple of games. We've only been here a couple of weeks, it feels a lot longer than that. And so Morgan, Van der Vleer and Al Curry have all had a chance at seven. Curry's previous appearances have been at six, which does change the dynamic for him a little bit. but I don't think we can underestimate what it is that Andy Farrell is looking for in some of these positions and you just articulated it there Will he wants work, right? He doesn't want highlight players he doesn't want players who disappear and then pop up he wants these kind of machines

9:56Alfie Reynolds: He called him a machine, didn't he? He's a machine

9:59Alex Lowe: He wants that relentless energy so I think Curry, I think it's interesting he's playing seven in this game because it does give him the chance to be in pole position there's always an element of recency bias a little bit you know morgan played really well the other night in brisbane but that already feels like a while ago and i i think as much as he sort of proclaims otherwise andy farrell will have come out here with his with an idea of what he thought the test team would be he can't be wedded to it because no tour ever goes like that but i think he would to come here with Tom Curry as his open side and so he's got an opportunity now to nail that jersey.

10:38Alfie Reynolds: And then look, all the fun of the Lions tour is second guessing everything isn't it and reading into tiny bits and pieces and all that, that's why we love it really because that's what it's all about so my next sort of hot take on just looking at the team, are we now starting to see the tapering down to our theory that the attacking tippy tappy game plan that we've seen for the last few weeks gets quietened and quietened and quietened. Because if you had a bit more of the sort of Irish influence, let's say, in the back row, you'd get a lot more of those nice diamonds, the nice van der Vleer stuff and Tygburn, lovely little intricate passes.

11:15Alfie Reynolds: Curry's going to smash stuff. Chesson's just going to... He's the king of the Watt bike. He's got the engine, the work rate. He's the line-out guy. He's rangy in the outside channels like McCarthy is, but he's not necessarily like a knitter, like Byrne would be. and Burn may come into the test side anyway and then you're looking at Aki who played his best stuff at 12 when he just ran dead straight against the Reds to set the platform and then you've got some weapons out wider but you've also got the best defensive 13 in ring rows haven't you rather than Hugh Jones is probably the better attacking 13 and then Russell is there to put everyone into holes and use the magic but to me that looks like you could see a slight shift back to the kind of like this is now test there'll be a lot there'll be a lot of people back home who

12:01Alex Lowe: were still thinking that tuapilotto and jones would be the better combination for the test series and i understand that because i felt that really until the waratahs game and because i think tuapilotto is a better all-round player he's a triple threat player he's got amazing hands he's got a clever little kicking game and he's a powerful runner with good feet quadruple threat

12:23Alfie Reynolds: because he's great for quotes as well.

12:24Alex Lowe: He's also good for quotes, yeah. But he hasn't shown any, he hasn't grabbed games. I think that Waratahs game is going to count against him because the Lions were way too lateral for way too long, really until Genge got his hands on it or Mitchell went darting on his own. The way that they changed how they played against the Reds, Bundy can't play that way. First half against the Reds, he kept throwing these little balls that were under pressure, it didn't really work. get him going hard and straight and over the game line and and meters after the contact that's what

12:58Alfie Reynolds: they're looking for i think the lions now and farrell must want the 2023 world cup bundy aki who was the best well him and geordie barrett were probably the best two centers at that tournament with nike levu weren't they and aki was just a monster yeah i remember particularly that south africa game where they beat them in the pool stage it was just like whoa bundy aki is just killing people.

13:22Alex Lowe: But there's a lot of smoke and mirrors going on here, right? You went to the Wallabies game in Newcastle. Oh, we'll talk about that in a bit, yeah. But one of your takeaways from that was that Joseph Suwili never got the ball. Never got the ball. Now, there's absolutely no chance that that's the Wallabies game plan for the first test. Can't be. So they're playing within themselves to just try and build some momentum and understanding and cohesion. And that is what the Lions have been doing this whole way through. Trying to just... What Andy Farrell talks about, getting the players to try and problem solve for themselves, to not give them too rigid a way of playing.

13:58Alex Lowe: And I think what frustrated him the most in the Waratahs game was that they just did not solve it until really it was too late. And I think that will count against Tuopilotti. I think it will count against Finn Smith as well too a little bit. And so the Wallabies weren't showing everything. The Lions haven't been showing everything. Each game has been a layering on of challenges, things they want to achieve. They're not taking the points when they're available. Because why? As Andy Farrell said, if you take the points, you've got one guy who's just practicing a goal kick. If you kick for the corner, you have more minutes, more opportunities for the team to build and gel.

14:39Alex Lowe: And so I understand that. It just means that what we've seen thus far is not the finished product at all. and I think they'll narrow down a bit but certainly focus in on a much clearer style and game plan and I'm sure it's going to involve big carriers getting over that game line.

14:57Alfie Reynolds: And I think the other thing that supports that theory or our thoughts that we've been having and discussing on this pod is that when Farrell was asked what are the sort of things that you're looking for to show that these guys are test animals and all that sort of stuff, what was the first thing he said? Set piece. yeah front five and it was interesting because it reminded me immediately of a chat i had with ronan ogara when i was in perth which was like probably yesterday but i've forgotten about but it feels like i don't know when that was a week ago two weeks ago i don't know but he was basically like the all the best lines packs have been monsters and if you've got finn at 10 basically just give him the biggest ugliest four pack you can find who are going to dominate the set piece and give him the best ball.

15:43Alfie Reynolds: And when I was asking him about the 10s, he was a bit like, you've got to have the best. The front five has got to be mean, basically. And it's got to be there for Finn, as in it's got to provide for Finn. If Finn's going to be the 10, and he should be, they should be building the front five for him. And to me, this front five looks like it could do that. We've got McCarthy, who's the biggest, ugliest partner for Etoji, in all the right ways. That's not a dig at all. and then Sheehan's the probably, well, here's a shout is Sheehan the best hooker in the world at the moment? He's definitely top three.

16:18Alex Lowe: Yeah, he's maybe the one that doesn't quite fit that mould because if you just wanted abrasive characters, you'd pick Luke Koundiki.

16:26Alfie Reynolds: When Warburton was talking about the sleeves up third test and it was like all the enforcers played, like Hibbard and that, so he's maybe not an enforcer, that's true.

16:35Alex Lowe: But his quality is way ahead. world class in everything he does and his darts are better

16:41Alfie Reynolds: actually as well

16:42Alex Lowe: oh yeah exactly that's what I mean his set piece is better his ball carrying his dynamism is better he's just a very different he's the one who is there for his all round skills not just because he's an abrasive

16:51Alfie Reynolds: and then if you've got a snarling Ellis Genge who sort of loves battering into Rossi's we keep finding and then you've got the most energetic version of Maritoji which we saw a couple of Wednesdays ago against the Reds last Wednesday the Reds definitely see that and you've got Curry who's just going around smashing everything. I feel like they need a bit of the character that England showed against Argentina. We've both watched that game at different times between our travel. They were blitzy and aggressive and angry. Jamie George is arguing with the linesman, the referee, and he's the calmest man in the world.

17:26Alfie Reynolds: It really felt like they were just going... Maybe that was a bit of Byron McGregor.

17:30Alex Lowe: They were winning 3-0, weren't they? They basically defended for the entire half apart from one period down the other end where George Ford dropped a goal. They were down to 13 men at points, but they were so physical and so committed. And just sort of loving it. Like every little thing, they were just like, oh, yes. That is where I can see ultimately Andy Farrell getting this Lions team. And you don't see that in tour matches because it's a layering process. But give them 10 days, give the bulk of this team 10 days to get that first test. And I think that's where we are now with this team. I think if these guys, as he said, have an opportunity to nail down the jersey because they are the ones who could deliver that sort of intensity that he wants and a platform for the others to then play off.

18:19And we've been expecting it for a while, it feels, on the pod. But the kind of Chessam or Byrne at six, which we've spoken about, also opens up other options, particularly on the bench.

18:29Alex Lowe: Yeah, I'm not sure Byrne looks like a six to me on this trip. He looks big and heavy.

18:35Alfie Reynolds: And he's had a big season, lots of minutes. Like, months the captain, plays every week. Yeah. He looked tired, I have to say, on Saturday.

18:43Alex Lowe: Yeah, he did. He played quite a bit and he was asked to play six on a heavy pitch. And it was a tricky old game. But he doesn't look like a six to me on this trip now. He looks like he could be a pretty beefy partner to Maro Itoji if it doesn't work for Joe McCarthy on Wednesday, I would expect. I mean, hell of a fullback. I would expect Tyburn to start there. But yeah, having that lock slash six playing in the back row does open up options because this bench includes Josh van der Vlera and Henry Pollock. And the dynamism that they can throw on. Will Stewart has got it all to prove, by the way, off the bench.

19:21Alex Lowe: We focused on the 15 previously, but Finlay Beelam, every time he's played, has been brilliant. And Will Stewart has a challenge when he comes on for the last 20, presumably 20-25 minutes he's got to make an impact because Bielam is breathing down his neck

19:37Alfie Reynolds: just feels like they're lacking a kind of like 10 sort of 12 on the bench doesn't it I tell you

19:43Alex Lowe: what I looked at that team the first thing I saw as I scanned through that squad was well not the first thing the first kind of thought that came to me as I got to the bench to see Marcus Smith's name alongside Mac Hanson and I just thought that there is a they can remove Marcus Smith from that selection and drop in Owen Farrell and they have everything covered and let's like just explain it

20:06Alfie Reynolds: to move beyond the sort of like a little joke and the triggering bit because that that will cause and just go okay so let's imagine a scenario on Wednesday where Bundayaki either gets sent off or injured in the first 15 minutes who goes 12? Andy Farrell wouldn't tell me said they've got options yeah but who but like so I think the two least disruptive options will be

20:28Alex Lowe: Ringrose goes 12, Freeman goes 13

20:31Alfie Reynolds: Marcus goes full back And then you move Kinghorn Full back, Kinghorn goes on the wing

20:36Alex Lowe: I said that was least disruptive That's that four position changes

20:39Alfie Reynolds: Or you bring on Hanson and you leave Kinghorn where he is And you just do one fewer change And move everyone in one Or you move Kinghorn to 12

20:48Alex Lowe: Or you put Pollock In this balance There isn't an ideal cover In that position

20:56Alfie Reynolds: Oh, I suppose if Pollock doesn't make the bench, Earl could, and then there's a possibility. Yes, yes. But, I mean, look, we've said it for a long time, and this Ben Earl at 12 conversation has spawned from us seeing him in the midfield in Japan, like this time last year. And Stuart Barnes has been writing about it brilliantly for a while. but you still go, wow, 70 minutes at 12 for an all-time back, as in he's played a back row all his life, against what looks like quite a strong area of Australia, the Ike Tau and Sule. You're going, oh, is that the ideal scenario? So another reason why you can see Owen being here,

21:36Alex Lowe: despite lots of people saying he shouldn't. There are different ways they can balance that bench that don't have Owen Farrell in it. But when we had to, like ages ago, we had to pick our projected team for the first test for something they built on the website. And readers could pick their own and then match it up against ours.

21:55Alfie Reynolds: When I did mine on the website, I didn't match the one I'd sent in. I was like, oh, it's like you got like 14 right from Will Gelleher's. And I was like, oh.

22:04Alex Lowe: And I had Matt Hansen on the bench in mine. I could see him being a really valuable bench guy. but then you need 10 cover, you need 10, 12 cover. This has been a theme on this pod and in our writing the whole way through, but this team selection, if it ends up being the kind of balance that he wants, then Owen Farrell would have to replace Marcus Smith on the bench because Smith doesn't work in this dynamic, but Owen Farrell would, just in terms of the positions they play.

22:36Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, I know. And that's where the daily thing changed far more than just losing a utility back, didn't it? We'll get on to Australia in just a moment and some TMO chat. I definitely want to go there. To round it off on the squad for the Brumbies then, and this very much a squad that looks like it could be the majority of what we see for the first test. Alex Mitchell goes again. He's getting some serious minutes, isn't he? Fifth game out of five. and I asked Andy Farrell, is he going to get a little Man of Steel award or something? And he was like, ah, he's a young, fit lad, he'll be all right.

23:11Alfie Reynolds: But that's a hell of a mess.

23:12Alex Lowe: He also said he's playing better for it.

23:14Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, which is true, I think. And actually, Curry talked about that too, saying, I get better the more I play. But it's not as if Mitchell's had a last six months like Sean of that much action. He missed a bit at the beginning of the season, didn't he?

23:29Alex Lowe: It suggests that Ben White's not quite up to speed.

23:32Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, I thought it strange that Mitchell is on the bench here again. Well, I suppose he flew to New Zealand, was there for a day and then had to come here. But you'd think by this point, hopefully he'd be over the jet lag.

23:43Alex Lowe: I suppose the only thing is that Mitchell won't be doing any training. How much training are they actually doing, really? Well, those who don't play will be doing more. And because he's playing all the time, in some ways he's probably physically doing less than in a normal training week. because on Wednesday he'll come on for 15 minutes maybe at the end. Whereas if he was in the non-23, Alan Waters would have him doing a brutal shuttle run, what bike session. You've just got me thinking there, Alex, as well, that again, if this is the bulk of the test team and then it's a 10-day build-up to the first test, training time for them.

24:19Do you know, if they're not having to prepare for the game in Adelaide in the same way.

24:23Alfie Reynolds: For someone like Alex Mitchell, well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because you then go, okay, because for the Owns game, I'm going to keep calling it, in Adelaide on Saturday. Does Mitchell have to go again? Do you start Ben White because you sort of need to just play someone else at nine, but then do you really, really, really want to protect Gibson Park? Like, what's the point of putting him on the bench? But does Mitchell go six from six and then go seven from seven because he'll be in the first test squad? I wonder whether they try and have Ben White do the full 80. And just have some, yeah.

24:53And you have one of them on the bench, but you hope you don't really use them. But like any little injury and Mitchell...

24:57Alex Lowe: Well, we might, you know, this is all part of the fun and games of it, but you might get a clue as to who starts. So let's say Owen Farrell starts at 10 or 12. If he is in the mind of the coaches to be on the bench, then a bit of time with... Do you put him with Mitchell? Mitchell or Gibson Park would be pretty useful. So, you know, there are still, and Farrell's right in saying this, and I believe it when he says it, that there are still permutations to unfold here. this isn't a nailed on Test 23 there's still other tweaks that will happen between now and the time he comes to announce it but all we know is a lot of it is pretty much there

25:37Alfie Reynolds: and also since we've been here we've had two out of the three games we've had an injury to the best player in the team so anything can happen alright we'll leave it there in terms of the Lions squad to take on the Brumbies after this we'll get into the Wallabies performance against Fiji and chat about the intervention of the TMO.

26:00At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible. From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech so you can outthink, outpace and outperform. PwC. So you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. For curb appeal that lasts, shop Labor Day Extra Big Deals at Lowe's. For a limited time, get 50 % off all Holland pavers. Plus, save$110 on the Ego Power Plus 56V 2.5Ah Blower Trimmer Combo Kit.

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28:10You've been planning that one. and also their only match until they take on the Lions in the first test. I know we said earlier there could be a bit of poker going on here and stuff being held back, but I was pretty disappointed in that Wallabies performance.

28:24Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, wow. Well, before we do that, I'll do my little postcard from Newcastle. So we got one of the Lions' comms team helped and drove us up. We went to the Robert Seddon Memorial. There were more journalists there than Lions players, for sure, which was a shame. But the CEO and Yian Evans came. so we did that and if people don't know that story he was the original Lions captain in 1888 and went boating in the Hunter River which is up that way in Newcastle and had an accident and tragically died on the tour and so the local rugby club Maitland have taken it on that they look after his grave which is in their town so there's always been a pilgrimage and if people have listened to the Red Lions and if not why not go and find it then Sam Warburton mentions it as an unbelievable sort of cultural touch point for him as the captain to connect himself back to 1888 so it was a shame that Mario Otoji who had a day off wasn't able to get in a car for two hours and go up there and have a look because that's a shame but maybe a point for another time but so then we went to the the Newcastle game and it's a really cool stadium actually I when I drove in I was like oh this looks like Aussie's AJ Bell like it's a bit a car park and and sort of a little bit soulless but then when you actually get into the ground it's got a grass bank on either side which people had picnic blankets out kids were running around i actually sat behind the posts the first half because it was a really cool view and you never really get to see rugby end on when you're trying to like analyze it to work and so it was quite cool to see it from that angle and sewer lee was warming up and he does this really intricate at Walmart where he stands with bare feet in the middle of the post for literally about 10 minutes dead still listening to old school iPod earphones not like noise cancelling jobs wireless and I think it's like a meditative sort of grounding it's almost ceremony that he does and then he got loads of tennis balls and was juggling and flicking them around and he just exudes this like main character aura energy all over the place and he's so like lithe and languid and athletic and then you watch and see like whoa here we go so Lee's first game on Australian so I look at him everyone's literally queuing up to take a picture of him and then they just didn't give him the ball which could well be a schmitty ruse before the first test but he was just running dummy lines and clearing rocks it was remarkable like arm are sort of one other touch point to him in the flesh has been taking the mickey out of England in the air.

30:58Alfie Reynolds: Didn't kick once for him, no restarts that he went for at all. He was always on the other side from where they kicked. He did one really nice catch pass for Fraser McWright's try on the left wing and that was it. And him and Iketao looked great on paper but didn't really link that much and Australia's scrum was all right but Fiji had all the athletes, all the talent. If you haven't seen the try they scored from their own 22, please go and find it because it was absolutely unbelievable and that was in the second half when i moved up to the stands and all around us it was a bit like if anyone's been to one of those sevens tournaments the fiji fans are the ones that are out there in the in their all their colorful regalia waving their flags you had a guy in front of us who every time something amazing happened would get out of seat and like run down the corridor a bit and like his aisle going like and there's all these like chahoo's and stuff like that it was it was awesome it was a really

31:52Alex Lowe: cool atmosphere but it was one of those classic fiji performances where they are capable of delivering like out of this world rugby skill level off the charts like like magic and then they also just like drop the line so frustrating bill matter line begging 15 minutes ago just drop the ball but even like yeah i mean that was horrific but just kind of basic stuff the the ball's tapped down from the line out and the nine drops it. These guys have ridiculous skill. The most talented rugby players in the world. And they score some incredible tries. But it's just the basics that quite often let them down.

32:33Alex Lowe: That was so frustrating to watch. From a Fiji point of view, Australia scrape over the line with the help of the TMO rules as they are, and a very, very late try from Harry Wilson Harry Wilson who did about the fifth attempt to get it down and you know Joe Schmidt afterwards wasn't he to you Will was very hang dog like no one will think we can win and we just got to show resolve there's no confidence

33:01Alfie Reynolds: quiet resolve

33:02Alex Lowe: this is you know that was that was not everything that the Wallabies will bring into the Test Series I think the Lions know that

33:09Alfie Reynolds: so there are two thoughts that I had after it one is if Phil if Phil wore the Australian rugby CEO was in the room he might have gone Joe come on mate we've got a series here to sell please are you joking he was sitting there going i'm not a confident person i don't have much confidence no one will have any expectation after we played like that and it's just like my god everyone cancel their tickets this series is gonna be dreadful and then second second thing i thought was the first test could be horrible here because at the moment the lines haven't really showed much and australia are really poor so this is not going to be close to 17 to 09 to all those great lions test matches that we remember so let's hope both teams are holding something back because if they're not you're going blimey but it is one

33:59Alex Lowe: of the reasons why i think if the lions take the approach that we sort of discussed earlier they could control things through power and strategy and they're not trying to force passes they can just control the game in a way that australia especially if they're without the players who missed the Fiji game so Skelton who else missed Skelton Valentini and Jake Gordon

34:19Alfie Reynolds: Valentini yeah that's a three and they're massive all three are massive players for them like literally massive in Skelton's case and Valentini's case but Valentini's one of the best back rows in the world and Jake Gordon is a is a real sort of temp he's a bit sort of Mike Phillips he builds like big nine quite aggressive seemingly like Andrew Calloway when I interviewed him on the other day picked him as one of his like three key wallabies and he calls himself the jester apparently but all of his jokes are unprintable according to uh killaway but like it was just some of their skill execution that was terrible like they had a nice little neat loop play which was very johnny sexton from lolosio and then the ball goes out to the right wing kicked down by potter and yorkson scores but it's just a massive poor pass yeah under real no pressure at all and this is where maybe we can start opening the door to the TMO because that thing was absolutely clear as day from 150 meters away in the stands and they watched I think at least 10 replays.

35:20Alex Lowe: Well it was clear live I was watching on television in the Glenmore Hotel in one of our favorite pubs in Sydney and it was as as the pass was made but like it was like forward that's forward the obvious

35:30Alfie Reynolds: obvious on the cut grass that it just went like three meters ahead of it and the reason that this I think is a particular talking point at the moment is also off the back of the Lions game against the Waratahs where we had heavy TMO involvement and a few things where you were looking at it and thinking I've probably got the right decision there but it was marginal and no one was even complaining about it plus you looked at loads of replays and it completely impacted the flow of the game and then we saw the same in the Wallabies game the forward pass, the Harry Potter foot in touch and my fear here lads is that

36:02Alex Lowe: Premship final too

36:03Alfie Reynolds: Prem final, yes Really disruptive Can I just explain the Potter one? Because that was quite interesting. Because with all of these, they're getting to the right decision. But sort of through horrible routes, really. So, again, if people haven't seen it because it was at four in the morning or something at home, they might not have done. So, Fiji kick long. Potter fields it on the right wing. And throws a disgusting pass inside to Nick Frost, who's absolutely like, Oh my God, don't give me that one. Because then he gets melted by three Fijians. They turn the ball over. and then pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, Fiji score in the corner, it would have won them the game.

36:39Alfie Reynolds: Then we find after the conversion, after everything else, a couple of minutes later, oh, hang on, TMO thinks he's seen something. Eventually they found that Harry Potter's left toenail was on the touchline, so therefore that bit of play that Fiji did should have never existed because the ball was dead. It's a bit like in cricket. Johnny Bairstow might have had something to say about that. and the new-ish bit of the regulations on the TMO is that you're allowed to go back two phases before a try is scored so you can't just go through the whole last ten minutes and go, oh hang on, that wouldn't have happened, so that wouldn't have happened so they've gone, okay, last two phases so actually, ironically, Fiji were disallowed a try because they were too good at offloading because if they'd had one more phase they wouldn't have been able to look back and look, it was the right decision, it shouldn't have been a try that whole phase of play shouldn't have existed but it just leaves a sour taste when we're like actively looking for these the perfection of the game when we know it's all mental and imperfect.

37:42Alex Lowe: Yeah and I that one has a particular sour taste because the team being punished was the wrong team. Yeah

37:48Alfie Reynolds: and it was the only type of offence that Australia could have given away that would have stopped the play. Like if they'd knocked on or a pen or anything like that obviously it would have been an advantage but because it was a foot and touch it's dead play.

38:00Alex Lowe: I think there is now a pressure to get all these key things absolutely right. It just takes, it's too much intervention, and I think the TMO's brief is way too broad, and that means that I'm convinced that referees and touch judges, a bit like umpires in cricket for a run-out or a stump-ing, they're not even looking for it anymore, because they know it's going to be checked. There's no way that the touch judge could have missed, or should have missed, Harry Potter's foot being in touch. he was on the white it was marginal but that's literally his job at the risk of sounding like Roy Keane but it kind of doesn't matter to them because they've got the safety net

38:38Alfie Reynolds: it's like no balls isn't it same thing yeah where they've just stopped calling them because they know they'll get spotted on the video

38:45Alex Lowe: and I think that's a problem for the game because now you just have more and more intervention from upstairs or the truck or whatever it is we saw it in the pre-final with Guy Pepper's try which gets ruled out for this marginal knock-on after an amazing piece of skill. And yes, it probably wasn't knock-on by the letter of the law, but rugby's a game of imperfection that we're trying to impose perfect refereeing upon, but only at key times. The rest of the time, don't allow you to get away with it unless there's a try. The balance is wrong, and Dan McKellar said it afterwards, the balance at the moment, the War of Tiles coach, is wrong, I think.

39:24Alex Lowe: It's too much intervention and not enough understanding the flow of the game. Because the impact on that is then the flow of the game. But I also say, you said, Will, we're getting the decisions right. And for the most part, we are. But what was that one in the Waratahs game where they looked at a clear out before, I think it was the Waratahs try, that, again, when they flashed up the replay, immediately I was looking at it and thinking, why have you even come in with that? No one would have ever noticed. But even when you look at one replay, it's a bit like the forward pass. So you look at one replay and you're like, well, obviously that's fine.

39:56But they're coming in with it. And I feel like we're going down that route as well.

39:59Alfie Reynolds: And again, one each in the Waratahs Lions game got done for a little marginal line-out block. And again, you're a bit like, my word. Are we really picking through every single maul and rug?

40:13Alex Lowe: That's a good example because the way that the Waratahs engineered it, The obstruction helped clear the path for Charlie Gamble to explode through the mall. But those are the things that referees would always spot. And now I don't think they need to look for because they know it's going upstairs. And it's just slowly taking the authority. I'd love to talk to Luke Pearce or, you know, Angus Gardner was doing the England game in Argentina. And I thought he took really good control of the game. The game flowed, except when they had to go to the TMO, the director seemed to take forever to find the footage so angus gardener's there going looking up the big screen twice having to say uh we haven't still haven't got the pictures

40:56Alfie Reynolds: just so you're aware it was quite passive aggressive the pictures and the tmos go yeah

41:01Alex Lowe: the director's still trying to find it it's like it's killing the spectacle it's actually one of the things that was good the waratars game that we we commented upon was how the the decisions were announced and explained to the paying public in the stadium. That you could actually hear it. Actually, it was clear. On Twickenham, it's all just like... That was really good. Sorry for everyone that's just been deafened. But you know what I mean?

41:27Alfie Reynolds: It's that sort of stadium muffled far away like that.

41:29Alex Lowe: And you're just like, I want a clear explanation. That did work because it kept the fans engaged. They're the ones who bought$200 tickets. And it's one of these things that you ask Andy Farrell about and he obviously can't say too much, but you read between the lines and he spoke about we need flow in the game and we need to get the right balance. And I think it probably is a concern ahead of the Test Series.

41:51Alfie Reynolds: And I don't know whether they've particularly become like this because the Lions is on the horizon, because it's not just happening in Lions-y games, because New Zealand France had a few as well. But I do wonder whether there's a legacy here of 2021 where the Lions bring profile to rugby like nothing else and so they are so scared of there being a really marginal, tiny mistake that defines the test series. And we all know what happened with Razzie's video and everything else and the nitpicking around all of that that destroyed the second test of that series because it lasted about seven hours because they were checking everything because they were so scared of getting something wrong and that's dangerous for the game.

42:35Alex Lowe: The World Cup final. The try that New Zealand scored that was chalked off shouldn't have been chalked off because they went back too many phases. Yes, that's probably why.

42:46Alfie Reynolds: That's that similar thing with the two-phase thing.

42:48Alex Lowe: Yeah, I just feel the balance is wrong. It's going to end up being more like Rugby League where the game is refereed by the man in the truck, not by the official down on the field.

43:02Alfie Reynolds: But this is another thing, isn't it? because the whole point of the bunker was to quicken the game up. Okay, we've had a couple of replays. We'll have a look. We think it's yellow, possibly orangey, red. Let the bunker deal with it and let's get on with the game. But now we're getting replay, replay, replay, replay. What do we think? Oh, let's have a discussion with the ARs. Oh, hang on. Okay, let's have another look at that. Oh, is the footage quite there? Have you got another angle? Okay, yeah, we think it's high degree of danger, but there's maybe some mitigation, yellow card. So therefore go to the bunker.

43:30Alfie Reynolds: And you'll be like, blimey, get on with it.

43:33Alex Lowe: My last point on this, which is a bugbear I have, which applied in the Premiership final, Guy Peppers tries, he scores it, the conversion is taken in the minute that's allowed for the conversion, and then they review it, and then they chalk it off. But they don't put the minute back on the clock. Do they not? No. No, no. No.

43:51Alfie Reynolds: So that minute still existed, but was also dead play. It's been lost from the game. It would have been the same with the Fiji try.

43:56Alex Lowe: It's been lost from the game, like, incorrectly, because what they've decided is that that phase of play should never have happened. And that phase of play resulted in a try followed by the minute for the conversion. They erase the rugby that happened, but they don't put the clock back. And I think that nowadays that should be the easiest thing to do for the refs to just go revert back to whatever time it was. Let's round it off, boys. I'm really conscious that part of the pod today has been, oh, the TMOs ruining the game and the Wallabies weren't great. and what sort of test series are we going to get.

44:29I'm really excited for Wednesday. That's my point. We've got a really intriguing game on Wednesday. First reveal of the big, here we go team. The first test team as we see it at the moment, or certainly close to it, might not be absolutely nailed on. On Australia's side, that will have to be better than they were against Fiji, we're possibly holding things back. And actually, I said it on the pod the other day. My friend messaged me today and said, after that Australia performance, do you still think we're going to get a tight series? And I still think we might. there's a lot of unknowns about a lot of these teams which means making any sort of prediction is you're setting yourself up to be a fool so maybe it's going to be Lions 3-0 and I'll look like an idiot but I still think I don't think we want it to be no I don't think

45:07Alfie Reynolds: as the team sorry as the journalists who are covering the Lions team I think it's generally better for our reporting and our jobs if they win let's be honest and the Lions concept because if you go another tour without winning when on earth are the Lions ever going to win the series but we all want a closed series and we all want slobber knockers of test matches and have brilliant occasions at all three and I think there's still a great chance that we get that yes it might not be the absolute classic of 2017 for example but I feel like it is still building

45:40Alex Lowe: really nicely here Alex I think you only have to look at what the Wallabies were like in November to understand that when they're when they're going full bore how dangerous they can be as an attacking side and how clever they can be they really they really made they beat england obviously they made life difficult for ireland they read ireland's play defensively really really well so they they shut down sam prendergast and you know schmidt's a smart guy they've had the equivalent of a world cup prep camp here they haven't had many matches that we've watched but they'll have they'll have enough internally they'll they'll throw stuff at the lions that the lions aren't prepared for and inevitably while the Lions on paper have the stronger team they the whole nature of it means that they they cannot be at their best because they've had a month six weeks to get to this point they can't be the finished article it's just the way that it is and so that will whatever it might look like on paper that will inevitably narrow the gap um I'm I'm still intrigued by it I'm still interested by how this team bonds and and you know how because there are there are some new combinations here you know Itoji Joe McCarthy Will Stapp which is a belter actually in the back row that Tom Curry and Ollie Chessom have never started a test match together in the back row

46:59Alfie Reynolds: Chessom's only played one, six, twice

47:01Alex Lowe: which you would not I would have laid money on them having played together five times with Underhill so I think there are some combinations that we still don't quite know yet so Wednesday's a really interesting game which sad Sadly, the rest of Australia will be paying zero attention to because it clashes with State of Origin 3, which is a decider. But we will be at the stadium watching it. Yeah, we're going to love it. I'm excited for it. And the Test Series will throw up things that we haven't expected because of the people involved.

47:32Alfie Reynolds: Can I end the pod on some good news from Canberra? Oh, yeah, go on. My bag is here. Yes. Which was quite a short saga, really. but Alex and I flew down from Sydney today on quite a small plane that had, what, 32 seats or something like that? Yeah. And I was told afterwards that because I was one of the last people to check in, editorialising the queue was so long that it took ages to get on through the bag drop, that they didn't load my bag onto the plane, which was a blow, especially because Canberra at the moment is like three degrees and I'm not wearing a coat on the plane. But the bag is here.

48:10Alfie Reynolds: But the bag's here. It got put on the flight later in the day.

48:14Alex Lowe: I've had two pretty major confidence blows in the last 24 hours. The second one was on the same flight, where I have a seat on the back row. And the stewardess came down and said, can you move further up the plane? Because we have a weight imbalance on the flight. As if me sitting in the back, the plane was not going to get off the ground.

48:38Alfie Reynolds: I don't know. a 20, I don't know, 50-ton plane. Yeah, so that was a blow.

48:44Alex Lowe: It was absolutely savage. On the back of last night in Sydney, we're in the Glenmore, we've watched the game, just chatting to some English, they were probably about, they were students, they were probably about 20, there were three girls and a guy who were asking, well, basically, I was finishing my article, and they said, what? We're going to guess what job you're doing, because you're like, why are you working on a Sunday night? Anyway, they guessed it pretty quickly. We ended up having a conversation. And one of them said, I'm loving being here, but I'm just really disappointed that I'm missing all the Oasis concerts at home.

49:18Alex Lowe: And I said, yeah, when we get back, the only dates I could go to would be at Croke Park, where Andy Farrell's got tickets for. I said, but I just couldn't afford, Dublin's so expensive, I couldn't afford to take my whole family over there. So we won't do it. She said, oh, you must. It's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. And I said, well, that's really kind of you to say so, but it's not once in a lifetime if you're old enough to have been there in 1994. So it was a kind of like, you old fart and you're too heavy for this plane isn't going to get off the ground. So yeah, it's been a bit of a humbling 24 hours for me.

49:54Onwards and upwards from here then I think. It's this little dip in the tour and then we're peaking going for the test series. That's what the plane nearly did because it happened to the phallics and stayed in the back. I tell you what though, I'm not a fan of those propeller planes. It was pretty bumpy. when did you come in because we first one of our number of planes got hit by lightning yes we were the plane before that so we were the plane i was on was coming through that weather before there was lightning it was bumpy enough and i would not have enjoyed that ours was quite

50:20Alfie Reynolds: a nice journey but we were sitting on the on the top of that pub you're talking about has got a like a little roof terrace and really spectacular thunderstorms over sydney harbour on sunday night but i was going please clear by the time we fly yeah well exactly i think you're glad it did Right, we'll leave it there. Next pod for you, Wednesday night, our time following the game against the Brumbies. Do follow and subscribe to the pod from wherever you get it from. Thanks very much for listening. This has been the Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

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