Itoje's 100th as England face Ireland

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1:23Will Kelleher: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times, hurtling into week three of The Six Nations. England, Ireland on Saturday, as is Wales against Scotland, and then on Sunday, France, Italy. I'm Alfie Reynolds. We're back at the England training base alongside Alex Lowe. Hi, Alex. Hello. And also Will Kelleher. Hello. And Charlie Morgan. What? Hi, broil flush. It is all of us together. What a time to be alive. Look, lads, I'm going to launch right into this. England-Ireland, we'll start there. We'll get on to the other two games. Who is under more pressure heading into this match?

1:58Will Kelleher: England or Ireland? 100 % Ireland, in my head. Do you think? Yeah, definitely. See, I would have said England. Why? Because I think Ireland, there is somewhat of an acceptance that Ireland are in a bit of a rebuild. And they're coming away to Twickenham and they're not expected to win. Whereas I think if England lose two in a row, off the back of that performance and defeat in Murrayfield, then it's changed the whole feeling, the whole complexion, the whole thought process around this team. If they win against Ireland and they can maybe put that game to bed and say that was a bit of a blip, we're still a good team, put in a good performance, I think there's almost more of a pressure on England to do that.

2:34Will Kelleher: I think it's more damning if England lose this weekend, would have been my theory.

2:36Alfie Reynolds: So to do the other side, the devil's advocate point, England went into this tournament 11 unbeaten, then 12 unbeaten with the Wales game. So if it were to be a two-game blip, you'd go, well, that's two in 15. Albeit, they would have really under-delivered in this tournament. Whereas Ireland, it's been a really quite extended demise, maybe. Is that fair?

2:58Alex Lowe: I think if Ireland lose away in France and away in England, but win their three at home, that's probably about par for where that team is. whereas if England lose in Scotland and then lose at home with France still to come there's a prospect of another two from five, six nations. What I think looking at the two teams is very evident that we've discussed on the pod before about the balance between trying to win today but also build a squad for the World Cup and both coaches have just gone we've just got to win on Saturday. You can see even from the Tommy Freeman selection they're moving him back to the wing.

3:37Alex Lowe: He could easily have decided not to pause that project because there is a grander plan at play, but that doesn't supersede the need to win on Saturday. So both coaches are feeling the pressure. Both coaches in their team selections, for me, have revealed, I guess, that this has to be the only thing that matters this week.

3:58Charlie Morgan: I think Ireland certainly feel under more overt pressure, don't they? We had Andy Farrell's Are We Irish in the week and then his selection. You're right to sort of point that out. That seems like a real win today. Absolutely. 11 of his 23 are over 30 compared to six of England's 23. Ireland's average age is higher despite their cap profile being low and despite England having three of the most experienced, the three most experienced players, Maratoji becoming the third centurion that they've got. But I do think the jarring nature of England's loss to Scotland means they're not under insignificant pressure because I think this has been this last few days.

4:34Charlie Morgan: I just have sensed that supporters have maybe forgotten aspects of what have made this 12 game run so impressive and actually some aspects of what was slightly unpopular about how England were playing the kick heavy sort of game plan. And some selections have been heightened by just how jarring that loss is. And that's fair, to be honest, because they knew what was coming down the pipe with Scotland. And it was almost as though they were powerless to stop it. And actually, when we've spoken to players this week, certainly Tommy Freeman, certainly Tom Curry have sort of said, hands up, some of that physicality shocked us, actually.

5:13Charlie Morgan: And that will be difficult for supporters to hear and more difficult if that is compounded by another loss.

5:17Will Kelleher: Is that reaction unfair from, you know, impatience from England fans because of what you point towards, Will, you know, the 12 games won in a row, brilliant end to last year, beating the All Blacks, all of that stuff? Or is that simply the nature of the Six Nations and why we love it? From one week, all of a sudden, everything is flipped?

5:36Charlie Morgan: One really, one point that is, it's kind of one of those points you make it and you cringe because you know, because you know, sort of that people don't want to hear it. But some test sides are so close, right? England were third, I think going into last weekend, Scotland were 10th. And yet, when with England 5 % off, Scotland pumped them. I think there's there are also two sort of sides to this whereby England internally will go will, you know, their messaging has been we're never too high, never too low. however I do think yeah I do think a second loss on the spin would be a little bit damaging against what they'd sort of built up previously the one thing I found funny looking at so I got

6:17Alfie Reynolds: up to our friends over there who help us with some statistics to detail what England's average in each of the sort of metrics was in the 12 match run and how far off it they were in scotland and the funny one for the fans was that they kicked way less in scotland and less far so in that 12 match run they usually average a kilometer of kicking a thousand meters of kicking and in scotland it was only 650 meters wasn't it charlie like i just find that entertaining because everyone goes god so much kicking it's like i actually could have done it more there's an

6:50Charlie Morgan: irony in that i think and that that with what we were talking about on the month the last monday i think the monday leading into scotland was saying how this has to be an away performance it almost suits you more to kick more away from home I think and sort of because the pressure is off you to perform and that maybe is another added subplot for this weekend being at home Henry Pollock in the starting side Marcus Smith in the 23 there's almost a little bit of a pressure and it will only be external but a little bit of pressure pressure to perform and for England to assert themselves impose themselves sorry on Ireland game plan question for you Charlie so

7:26Alex Lowe: But Courtney Laws in his column talked about how Scotland turned England's plan upon them. They won the aerial battle, injected speed into the game off the back of winning the scraps on the floor, and then stretched England. I know with the Laws the way they are and have been, the contestable kick is massive. It seems to be the fulcrum of everything. And there are certain things you can do to wait in your favour a little bit. If you're kicking, you're running onto it. But for a coach that bases everything so much in data and detail, and as you said, the team that's third against the team that's tenth, there's hardly anything in it.

8:05Alex Lowe: It feels odd to me that all game plans are now based around something that is so unpredictable that there's a lottery in where that ball's going to bounce. And England saw it. They probably shouldn't have kicked that first contestable at Murrayfield, but they won it in the air. Then it bounces to Tupulotu. He kicks in behind, flips England, and for 20 minutes England barely see the ball and they're 17-0 down with a man in the bin. And the whole momentum has flipped on something that England can't control. And yet their coaching team are so deep in analysis. But it's the same for every team. It just feels odd almost.

8:38Alex Lowe: They've all decided that it's okay to build game plans around something so unpredictable.

8:43Charlie Morgan: It's getting into the realms of probability and maths, which I am really kind of thrashing below the surface. But do you think also that they've gone, well, it's gone wrong for us then and we got and if you review the game so many of those little deflections went wrong we had tom roebuck on the on the bench and maybe we rushed him back um some of the decisions could have been better some of the execution could have been better do you think it's just a case of like he's done with some selections going look you just make sure plan a is more polished because i do think a lot of the controllables were were that were controllables and just not quite as accurately executed.

9:20Alex Lowe: They definitely, in the areas where, even though they couldn't win the air, they managed to just about get some control back in the game to the point where we thought England will now start to take over and then their skills let them down or their decision-making let them down. It just occurred to me yesterday when, really what Courtney said, because obviously England lost that game having had, if you think that the aerial contest is a 50-50 each time, that doesn't mean that you win one in every two. Arlen went to Paris and won four out of 19. and England went to Morrifield 3 out of 19 England went to Morrifield and the stats were similar so it can just go really badly against you and then I think the question is at what point in the game do you react to it going against you and maybe kick longer England only kicked 6.50 the week before Ford was kicking long and engaging Wales in this battle that's one of the things that they didn't shift in game which I'll be fascinated to see

10:17Will Kelleher: on Saturday what what they do about that we mentioned selection there England named the team on Tuesday three changes Henry Pollock Tom Curry come into the back row Sam Underhill Guy Pepper onto the bench Tom Roebuck drops out Tommy Freeman moves to the wing and Ollie Lawrence comes into the centres what does that team selection tell you because off the back of that performance at Murrayfield you wondered didn't you you know what Steve Borthwick going to do here he is a guy that is very measured and controlled and doesn't panic and doesn't overly doesn't do knee-jerk reactions so it could have been more changes is this about giving the bulk of those players some of whom really underperformed up at Murrayfield the opportunity to go out there and and right

10:55Alfie Reynolds: those wrongs essentially yeah I think you can see that with Arundel who on Tuesday was let off a ban which I feel like is pretty much fair like the two yellow cards he had half an hour off the field didn't he that was enough of a punishment he's been really quickly on that how much does the game

11:11Charlie Morgan: turn on a 50-50 breakdown decision there because how many times you watched that in its seventh for the eighth minute yeah and sorry and it's um it does so much right there arundel chucking back

11:21Alfie Reynolds: and he just lift little bit of i think i think it's one of those where where genuinely three

11:27Charlie Morgan: or four times out of ten are f's gone good turnover yeah and that's not to excuse you know not to excuse the second one which is a bit of a brain fade but um that's another thing about the margins being small and actually making it easier to go again i think and so i think he's

11:41Alfie Reynolds: clearly one who will within himself be like I need to play better this weekend and get that hands on the ball the the roadback one is interesting and Steve Borthwick's explained it this week that because they've had three games back to back and they rushed him back a bit because Manny Faber-Bosa was injured for the Wales game maybe he's not quite fit enough having said that he did have a complete shocker in Edinburgh didn't he so it might have happened anyway which then means freeman's onto the wing and alex both of you guys have written about the kind of freeman that center thing which you said up this time last week was they were determined was the project for the whole six nations so now that they've done that i'm not i'm not saying you were wrong about that it was just that was the information yeah it still is the plan it so is Is this a horses for courses one week for Lawrence, do you think?

12:34Alex Lowe: Yes. I mean, it may end up being more than one week. Because there's no question in my mind that Lawrence at 13, Freeman on the wing is way stronger for England. I was going to say that. It looks stronger. Yeah, than Freeman at 13 and Roebuck on the wing, as good as Roebuck can be. And he wasn't last week. There's just a view that ultimately they think Freeman will be the best 13. But the other factors have to come into account. So if they don't have... I think losing Emmanuel Favre Bosso is massive. You can see how much they're trying to find a way to make up for his absence. I think also there is a reaction to a degree to last week.

13:15Alex Lowe: They were flat. They were a bit sluggish. Not helped by playing half an hour with 14. Half an hour of the first 54 with 14. And there was a lack of intensity. Lost the collisions, as Charlie said earlier. and there was a lack of punch in the carry. So they weren't getting over the game line enough. They weren't moving the ball enough. And so I think if you look at these selections, and he could have made more, and I think he would have been tempted to make more, tempted to bring in George Furbank at 15, for example. But he's got to balance that with managing his players and managing the sort of the consistency, which is important, and making players feel backed so that they don't just get axed after one poor day which has been his thing from the outset.

14:00So I think if you look at Curry, Pollock, Lawrence coming in,

14:06Alex Lowe: they're all designed to fix areas that didn't work last week. And I think Freeman on the wing is just so much more dangerous at the moment. There's a clip of him just in training where he just does that two steps in off the right and he beats about three defenders. And he's so dangerous in those areas. We saw the try he scored against Wales at the end. And, you know, it was sort of, the game was done, but he busts through like three defenders. Like he's so dangerous in that area, which when he's playing 13, he's not in those positions. So I think it strengthens England, but it's definitely a reaction to areas that were flat and underperformed last week.

14:46Alfie Reynolds: And on that front, I really like the Pollock selection. It was something you, Charlie, wrote about at the beginning of this week going like, is that how they could change it? And to me, it seems like there's multiple reasons why you do it this week. And I like them all. The first one is that Pollock's been playing really well. He came off the bench, did well, a couple of really big carries, a nice jackal turnover, didn't he? When England were struggling, could have been much worse. England could have been like 40-21, couldn't it? Sorry, 40-20. And the other two bits, we've talked about this thing, the new thing of having three games back to back to back in the Six Nations.

15:23Alfie Reynolds: who's the person who's going to re-energize the team who did look flat and did look leggy in Scotland it's like Tigger isn't it it's like get him involved and so I like I like it on that front and I like it therefore as an extension to what he'll do to Twickenham because we've seen it every week it's kind of phenomenal really and I'm not sure we've quite seen this since Atoji where there is this genuine like what is he going to do this week this is so cool Marcus a bit, which has faded, hasn't it? Let's be honest. But, I mean, look, we'll talk about Maro in a minute because it's his 100th cap and we know he's only come off the bench four times, I think, in his whole career, which is mad for England.

16:05Alfie Reynolds: But, Alex, you were probably there. The time he came off the bench in Rome in 2016 and hadn't played the week before, everyone was like, here we go, Maro. Yes, let's see it. And I think that starting Pollock will just get everyone going because you know that he will do something in the first 10 minutes that'll get everyone, whether positively or negatively, will rise the crowd. And I think England need a bit of that energy around the place.

16:27Charlie Morgan: Maybe just really important to say really briefly that it's kind of, the thought behind it is that him and Tom Curry have been working as this sort of double act off the bench. So actually flipping those around, it really is a case of changing the order rather than dropping and promoting players because they've been this sort of bomb squad double act, haven't they?

16:45Will Kelleher: On the bench though, that was part of the interesting thing with this in that when you've got Tom Curry and Henry Pollock coming off the bench, You've got the power and just world-class nature of Tom Curry. You've got the energy, the explosiveness of Henry Pollock. It does really change up, like Underhill and Pepper, quality players, but it really changes up the look of that England bench.

17:01Alex Lowe: It does a bit, but I think there's a danger of forgetting how dynamic Kai Pepper can be. He has been playing a role at six for England, which has been very much off-the-ball defence, unseen. The classic number six role, you only have to think back to the Prem Final the try was chalked off because of a marginal knock-on earlier in the move but what a break he made to score that, he set up Jack Van Portfleet in Argentina with a similar carry he is not showy as Pollock but he's a hell of an athlete himself and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a bit of licence to get his hands on the ball because it's one of the things that he hasn't quite done enough yet and I'm talking to Andy Robinson about him last week, Andy Robinson, who works with him at Bath, back row, Norse, former England coach.

17:52Alex Lowe: He loves Guy Peppa, but he says the one thing I'm trying to encourage him to do more, get his hands on the ball more, run those support lines that Pollock runs, where he reads it so well, but he'll gamble at times. They just want to bring that out of Pepper. I think it's in him. I think he's a great athlete. So it feels like it's a different bench dynamic, but I think you'll have you'll have Underhill coming on who will feel sore from his first half performance he doesn't drop off tackles the way that he did normally hooked at half time the challenge to him will be right you're going to get 25 minutes go and make an impact go and make up for all those missed tackles and I wouldn't be surprised if we see a more attacking roaming role from from Pepa because it is there we just haven't really seen it yet

18:39Will Kelleher: the final point on the Pollock thing as well I feel like there's something in this as well of credit to Steve Borthwick in letting Henry Pollock flourish because he is so totally opposite of what we know Steve Borthwick to like in terms of a clash of personalities and I think you hear about previous England squads where personalities like that that get swallowed up a little bit or get dampened down and it's a bit cliquey and that sort of thing and so despite the fact that Steve Borthwick is so different to Pollock he's such a different character and people have a lot of perceptions of what he's like as a head coach he's actually he loves it and he sees the benefit of it and he's allowed it to thrive.

19:15Alex Lowe: I think that should be seen as a real credit to Steve Boreford. Yeah, I agree. Who that sort of emotional intelligence isn't necessarily his natural place. It's not always his strong suit. But what he's proving is his ability to create an environment around the team that's required. So you'd have a lot of people who would say that Henry Pollard would never have been allowed anywhere close to that Leicester team that won the league. and Ben Youngs was very critical of the kind of personality and the rugby that that Leicester team played when they won the league under Borthwick. Borthwick's retort would be, but if we played this kind of expansive running game, we wouldn't have won the league.

19:49Alex Lowe: So what do you want? And so that team, at that time, given where the club had been and where the experience levels were, they had to play in a certain way. They had to have a certain character, a personality. they needed Ford and Youngs to kick the leather off the ball this team is different in character different in personality the players, they don't have a big they don't have a Jasper Visa at number 8 just smashing people it has to be about energy and pace and skills and it's what they didn't really show last week which is why I think he's in this week but it's a credit I think to Borthwick because he recognises that these are the best players this is the character of the team that they bring so allow them to bring it and flourish no point in posing the way that he played he made this great comparison with Schalp Britz compared Pollock with Britz just for the skill level and the spirit and the impact he has on everyone around him I've spoken to Britz in the past about one of their ski trips to St Moritz or wherever the Saracens went and they had some apres ski in the evening and Borthwick stayed in the room that he was showing with Britz to do line-out work Britz went out on the upper old spritzes or whatever it was Spritz on the Spritz in St Moritz They were so different in character.

21:02Alex Lowe: So there's no point Borthwick in trying to impose his view of the world on a team that sees the world so differently.

21:07Alfie Reynolds: The other guy I think should get credit for Pollock as well is Maro. Both of us, Alex and I, are writing pieces about Atoji this week because it's 100th cap. One of the points that two people I've spoken to this week have made to me, one is Charlie Ewells, who is his second-row partner in the Junior World Cup in 2014 and then through, and his cousin, Benno Urbano, is that there would be no Pollock without Otoji. That the fact that rugby has accepted and Maro has been himself through his whole career, he's been the guy with the pearl earring who's into his African art. He's a very different rugby player than we've ever seen really in England.

21:43Alfie Reynolds: And his journey means that therefore when Pollock is the junior player under Otoji's captaincy, he's allowed to be himself. And he's very different to Maro. He's not the same character at all, but he's allowed to thrive as a personality. and I and Jules joked to me he was like imagine what the young player's going to be like when Pollock's the captain he's like they'll be wearing GoPros on their heads during the game or something

22:06Charlie Morgan: Ellis Genge another guy whose leadership I think I think he's really empathetic to a different and I think it was after we were we all would have been in in Wales for Pollock's debut when he came on scored two tries wound people up straight away and he said actually Ellis Genge is a guy that whispered in my ear when I came on do absolutely nothing you wouldn't do you know playing in front of people at Saints just be yourself and I think it's a credit to a lot of people actually that he's carried that through.

22:32Will Kelleher: Genge spoke to us about that didn't he when we went to see him at Bristol and saying heck they're so different him and Pollock he was like do what you want but wear studs wasn't it because he was wearing mouldies to training it was like wear studs for me and then you can do what you want in terms of Maratoja then 100th appearance for England I find it amazing that for so long it was Jason Leonard wasn't it as the 100 capper And then in this generation, we've had Ben Youngs, Jamie George, George Ford, Courtney Laws, Danny Care. Farrell, of course, all of a sudden this generation has had loads of 100 cap England players.

23:07Will Kelleher: And Maratoji, that's going to be his honour this weekend. Do you think that is what it ultimately boils down to? Yeah, kind of.

23:12Alfie Reynolds: I mean, Leonard had a hell of a long career, didn't he? 91, 90 to 2003. Heavy, heavy career, that isn't it, in the front row. And only got to 114 caps, I think it is. yeah more games I guess is that and then longevity and people looking after their bodies but Maro's done it so quickly 10 years 31 and at the stat before only four of them off the bench which will be definitely a record for an England player to get to 100 but I wanted to ask each other about Maro because as I touched on there I think he's just been such a fascinating figure in our sport and like we've had so many touch points with him over the decade that he's kind of been in the public domain and I found him at the start I think I thought he was there was a danger that he could have gone the wrong way and become a bit of a brat which is a is a harsh thing to say but I just always remember there was that the couple of incidents there was the Lions the Lions one was one that and actually I've still got it in my dictaphone I listened to it yesterday and it was the second test the Lions his amazing game where he was unbelievable in that in that game that the lines one and those of you who have never been in the mix zone it's a bit of a mad setup but someone potters along with a sort of media chaperone and he was there he's 22 he's had the best game of his life the whole stadium singing oh mario toje his song and right in front of a gaggle of us only about five of us he goes to the media chaperone how long is this going to take then and she goes oh only five minutes minutes mario don't worry and he was like time it and gave her his phone and you just go who's this guy all right we're just trying to give you like the big build-up as the great day of your career and was I listened to the thing back and I'm only a couple years older than him and he monosolabbed me three or four questions and I was a bit like what's happening here but thankfully over the years the kind of charismatic captivating Mara has come through and he didn't go that way which he could have done I think he's just been an unbelievable statesman polymath like he's changed the sport on and off the field I think

25:16Alex Lowe: in such an amazing way Alex yeah I've yeah I remember that day I've always felt that that was more of an aberration than than a reflection yeah it turned out to be lucky yeah talking to interviewing him he'd just come back from winning the under 20s world cup and we were talking he was just starting his degree and we were talking about his degree and all the you know we had a bit about rugby and he at the time i remember i remember in mid conversation he took a huge delivery of sponsored gear all these boots these trainings and boots arrived but i was like it was just a really interesting conversation the like of which i hadn't had that many of i remember before i talking to alex corbusier about his history degree and thinking like there's there is a lot to a lot of these players but even even then compared to maro this felt different and he He was 19 or whatever he was at the time.

26:04Alex Lowe: So I've had the real pleasure of following his whole career. And, you know, he had that. He rushed on the scene where he barely lost a game.

26:12Alfie Reynolds: It was 31 starts that he won in a row for club and country.

26:15Alex Lowe: So he's winning premierships, Europe, Grand Slams.

26:18Alfie Reynolds: European Player of the Year at 21.

26:20Alex Lowe: Incredible. And then you get to a point where I reckon I can think of two games in 10 years. And the second one might have been Saturday at Murrayfield where he looked to me like he was still struggling for fitness after essentially two months away from the game, dealing with injury and grief. So therefore, one game in 10 years, I think, which I think he would have referred to as not a great day at the office, which was Wales away. He gave away five penalties, I think. And it was a time when we then later discovered that he'd been dealing with an illness. And he just wasn't quite... He subsequently reflected on that day of too many penalties.

26:57Alex Lowe: and that then gave gave sort of ammunition to this idea that he was a penalty machine and he was he was indisciplined and a liability and I was like one game I reckon one of the most amazing things about him is that he started this would be this would be 96 out of 100 his his average rating that anyone would give him watching would be 8.5 out of 10

27:18Alfie Reynolds: probably yeah it's like

27:19Alex Lowe: so you reach that point mid-career

27:21Alfie Reynolds: and that's not including the Lions games that's not including the Lions games he's probably a 9 in a few of them

27:25Alex Lowe: so you reach that point mid-career he has like a bad day in Cardiff having won 31 games won all the honors the people start going oh is it the same marrow you're like he's still eight out of ten like his the consistency of his performance level has been one of the most remarkable things to the point where you you got used to the fact that he was incredible so if he was just very good it felt like he was underperforming which I think is a testament to everything he delivered he um we've been sort of

27:54Charlie Morgan: treated to him you're right that consistency of excellence is is has been remarkable and we've been sort of treated to him i think one thing we're talking about is sort of him speaking to us when he's spoken to us i think i can't remember a time when he hasn't people have asked him what areas of his game does he want to expand he's always said he's said look i it's no secret i want to i want to be a better link player i want to be a better attacker but those areas of his game where he's at he's excellent that disruptive defense that line out craft because he's sort of as we've covered him he's learned how to call a line out right he used to used to lead on George Cruz and now he sort of takes ownership of that area of the game which is an increasingly important area of the game that's to juggle those things and I wouldn't say he's quite sort of kicked on as far as someone like Courtney in the same way someone like Courtney Laws has with ball in hand however I just remember being checked by at the beginning of the Lions tour writing which makes me cringe my insides out now writing that you know Joe McCarthy might he looks like he's got one lock spots dying up so Maro not sure and then it was I think it was a Reds game where he was 12 out of 10 he was um he was unbelievable and and his carrying was amazing in that game but yeah I think the the aberration on his career is interesting that was his sixth loss against Scotland that's that's as many as as many as Finn Russell has won which is a really interesting

29:08Alfie Reynolds: sort of wrinkle to to his career but he would have beaten the All Blacks three times once for the Lions twice for England yeah which not many English players will have done either so it's funny that isn't it where he's got one that loads of people have in their back pocket but he's also

29:22Charlie Morgan: got the ones that no one ever does and on the back of what would have been an underwhelming performance from at Murrayfield he's had the sort of career that suggests that this Saturday is

29:31Will Kelleher: going to be special yeah awesome achievement for Mara Toje massive game for England massive game for Ireland as well we'll talk about them and the other two matches this weekend just after this Now if you're listening to this you're clearly a rugby fan which means you'll know that style and performance go hand in hand That's why we're thrilled to be partnered with Charles Tyrwhitt They aren't just experts in tailoring they are the official formal wear partner to England rugby They've been dressing the squad and coaches for six years now and they even count legends like Matt Dawson and Marcus Smith as brand ambassadors For the England fans out there you need to check out their official England rugby collection.

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31:24Will Kelleher: so from an island point of view gents um sam prendergast not in the team jack crowley starts as our very own peter o'reilly was reporting at the start of this week if you're england would you rather see Prendergast or Crowley wearing the 10 jersey for Ireland the latter I think I think

31:40Charlie Morgan: when they've looked the best he's been on the pitch there's six nations there's just a sort of a more precision about their phase shape which looks like it's going to be their chief weapon I think they kicked a hell of a lot in France they'll still kick a little bit if you think back to the last time they were at Twickenham they actually played some really good stuff and they're unlucky to be on the wrong end of a really really good game but they got some joy with their contestable kicking I think they'll keep the ball in hand and they really targeted Alex Mitchell in the front line of England's defense and that looked a little bit shaky in Scotland so I think they'll go after that I just think yeah we spoke to the age profile just really interests me it's like Andy Farrell's gone prove me wrong lads sort of thing you know yeah prove everybody wrong and the guys that have been there and done that and let's not forget beating England a lot he's giving them a chance to do so again.

32:32Alex Lowe: I think he had to pull Prendergast out of the firing line. I think he still believes in him massively. I don't think Prendergast believes in himself at the moment. It's no reaction to the England bat row because whatever England picked I think would have been tasked with getting in his face and making it uncomfortable. I remember watching Ireland play Australia in the autumn before the Lions tour and Australia sort of swarmed him, cut out his passing lanes and he panicked a bit. Now that's whatever it is, a year ago, 18 months ago. But I just feel that he's thrown some panicky passes. He's, even in Paris, when they get the penalty, it was a 50-22, wasn't it?

33:12Alex Lowe: Have the line out. They're in the France 22. And he throws an offload that Josh van der Vlera is not expecting because, I can only assume, really because Johnny Sexton never throws that offload because you're going to build the pressure here. It's not the time to take a chance. He's ridiculously talented. and he can see things and execute things at the highest level in attack. But I think he's in his own head now and obviously defensively there are issues. So it was pretty obvious from Final Whistle last week that he was going to get removed from the firing line. I didn't think he'd be dropped from the 23 altogether but I think it's probably wise for him right now.

33:52Charlie Morgan: Statement that he doesn't make a 5-3 bench as well.

33:54Will Kelleher: Yeah, exactly. We were saying, Will, about... It's funny with this Ireland team because I think you look at a lot of it and it looks really strong on paper, but it's kind of that reputation, what we've seen previously versus current form, right?

34:05Alfie Reynolds: Yeah, and actually we sort of said this a bit around the Scotland game. It's like which stat matters the most. So I was just looking back through the history of this fixture and England have only won one of the last six against Ireland, that 2024 game with the Marcus Smith drop goal, but they've won eight out of the last 10 at Twickenham. So it's like, well, which one's more relevant? And look, I think we're all sitting here at England's team base and we probably think that it would be more, maybe good to go back to the start of the pod, more disappointing for England if they went, what's that?

34:39Alfie Reynolds: No, you've lost at home. I think they've won nine in a row at home, England, which is not anywhere near a historic run, but it's better than it has been for a while. But I wouldn't think the Irish players have got that much fear in going to Twickenham. Like, why should they, really? They had a one-point defeat last time out, with a drop goal in the final play and for a long time over the last few years they've been a lot better than England but as you say the team it's fascinating isn't it and I've written this week about the sort of post Lions fatigue but you've got some brilliant players in there like clearly over their careers Ringrose, Lowe, Gibson Park, Sheehan, Furlong, McCarthy's young into his career but he's been brilliant, Ryan, Byrne, Van der Fleer, Doris like there's some massive players in there and I guess it's the Farrell question to them is like as you said Charlie don't let me down again and I wonder if Ireland were to lose this game whether there's a bit more of a clearing of the decks like he clearly tried to move on from your namesake Alex didn't he James yeah who was not good on the lines we were saying that at the time but it's brought him back he's been key to that Irish he was great against Italy and then he was good against Italy so that's that's one there that's worked and you think just statistically and on your eyes people like Sheehan have looked absolutely knackered.

35:56Alfie Reynolds: They've dropped off massively. Tygburn, similar. No wonder because they had several stacked seasons in a row. So there's a massive challenge on some of these guys. They're staking their reputation almost in this game, aren't they?

36:07Alex Lowe: They've gone for Tygburn at six. So they've got three front line line-out jumpers in England. They've got two plus Currie, who can, and Pollock, who's been lifted in training a bit.

36:18Alfie Reynolds: But hasn't, sorry, a theme of Ireland's last six months, being their line-up's been dreadful. Was it?

36:23Alex Lowe: Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. I think he's reinforced it there with real experience at six. I think that's going to be a really important battle. And it looks to me like they're geared up to try and win the physical battle against an England team who I think are trying to inject some pace into what they do. So I don't know if England want to get... England need gain line and they need to improve their work in the contact area. They need more front football. But that looks to me like an Ireland team that's geared up to try and win that physical battle.

36:52Will Kelleher: In a competition where everyone is desperate for the underdog tag, I wonder whether that does help Ireland this weekend as well, that they're coming in and everyone's a bit doom and gloom about them. I wonder if that could be a strength. 11-point favourites, England.

37:03Charlie Morgan: I feel so big. That's ridiculous, isn't it? The bookies know a hell of a lot more than me, but if you think if that actually happens, if you're England, you're crowing with a statement win. If you're Ireland, you're going, clear the decks. If an 11-point defeat happens to Ireland, that's a mandate for Andy Farrell to go right ahead of 2027. A lot's got to change.

37:28Will Kelleher: Rattle us off, fellas. The other matches this weekend, Wales-Scotland. I was pushing Elgin on Monday's pod saying we haven't seen enough from Wales. Does anyone see anything other than a Scotland win? Well, no. Oh, no. Was that the wrong answer?

37:42Alex Lowe: No, no. It'd be great if there was some debate about it. I just don't.

37:47Alfie Reynolds: I don't see it. I don't see it. Not on the field, no. but there's an amazing Russ Petty stat. So Scotland's next match in the Six Nations after beating England has gone thus. 2000 was the final game of the tournament, so scrap that one. 2006 lost to Ireland away. 2008 lost to Italy away. 2018 lost to Ireland away. 2021 lost to Wales at home. 2022 lost to Wales away. 2023 won versus Wales at home. 2024 lost to Italy away. So they don't back up.

38:17Alex Lowe: Results, as Courtney keeps saying. That is an incredible stat from Ross.

38:21Will Kelleher: I still think 2026 win against Wales away.

38:24Alfie Reynolds: Well, flip it the other way, it would be a stunning victory for Wales. Yeah, it would. Despite, like, from where they are and everything else, wouldn't it?

38:31Will Kelleher: And what about France-Italy? Normally a Sunday game that people might be, not too shit, but that's a really intriguing game. But France too strong, Charlie?

38:38Charlie Morgan: Draw last time in Lille. And it should have been an Italy win. Padrello and Capuazzo back potentially for Italy. I'm not sure. I think they've been training. I haven't seen the team yet. so apologies but they've just looked coordinated, clever, tough that scrum is a total revelation so it'd be wicked for the tournament if they take that game deep

39:00Alfie Reynolds: and even get a surprise I just want to watch Ferrari for the whole tournament I keep saying this but Will Collier is writing his own columns but I'm helping him a little bit with them I'm just obsessed with Ferrari now because Collier just keeps telling me how good he is and he's just smashing everyone to pieces

39:17Will Kelleher: it's great great challenge for italy as well an exciting really really exciting game three good all intriguing games we will be at twickenham so post-match pod coming your way after england against ireland send us an email if you want to get in touch the ruck at the times.co.uk and your well i was going to say weekly reminder it's podly reminder every time we pod 9th of march on the monday twickenham stoop the ruck live serge bettson and courtney law's joining us i've forgotten

39:43Alfie Reynolds: on anything that's well you and charlie are that as well we are we're not we're not joining us we're

39:48Will Kelleher: not the head i think that's the bigger self courtney and bettson fine but like alphie and charlie yeah well if you want to come and see us uh head over to the times.com forward slash events get your tickets uh gents see on saturday see on saturday see on saturday uh enjoy the rugby this weekend we'll be back with you following england island this episode of the rock is brought to you by charles tyrett who are all about making men look and feel great for the england fans out there you need to check out their official England rugby collection, which features shirts, polos and knitwear. And we all know Tirrett for the workwear, but their casual game is just as strong.

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