Lewis Moody's heart-breaking MND diagnosis - what is sport's connection to the disease?

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1:19Welcome back to The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. I'm Alfie Reynolds, back with Alex Lowe this week. Hi, Alex. Hello, Alfie. How are you doing? Yeah, very well. Thank you. Not too bad at all. And also joining us from the Wiltshire Studios is Stuart Barnes. How are you, Barnsley? Good to have you back on the ruck.

1:38Stuart Barnes: Thank you, Alfie. I'm delighted to be back. Look, loads to get into today, as there always is, gents, with the second round of the Prem, the Champs starting back up at the weekend, with Worcester returning to action, and of course, the conclusion of the Rugby Championship as well. We'll get into all of that, but Alex, we've woken up to the news this morning, as all of our listeners would have done, that Lewis Moody, 2003 England World Cup winner, former captain, former Leicester Tigers, former Bath, has announced that he's been diagnosed with MND. Really sad news to start our morning, but what an unbelievable player, what an unbelievable bloke.

2:13Alex Lowe: Well, both of those things are true. All those things are true, Alfie. Unbelievable player, unbelievable bloke, and devastating news for him and his family. My phone pinged at about seven o 'clock this morning with a statement coming through to tell us all and that he would be appearing on BBC at about 10 past 8, and I watched that. And it's just heartbreaking because you know what it means. As Lewis said, it's a death sentence, and he's incredibly stoic. He's always been this guy who, his resting face is with a smile. He's the guy who's attacked life to the full. He played his heart out on the field.

2:55Alex Lowe: he's done the same off the field he's raised millions of pounds for brain tumor charities this disease is is just incredibly unfair and watching Lewis talk about having to tell his his boys what he'd what he'd been diagnosed with was was just was horrific and um just a very dark start to the day and it's quite a hard thing to process really because you know you know from following other players in our sphere and we'll talk to colleague of ours Tom Kershaw is coming on who's investigated MND across sport. But in our sphere of rugby, we know from Jus van der Westhaisen and obviously Doddy Weir and now Ed Slater is living with it and now Lewis, we know what it means.

3:39Alex Lowe: And it's just horrific, horrific news to wake up to for a guy who's given his heart and soul to the sport and to his family and to good causes and to other people.

3:51Stuart Barnes: it's one of those things it's almost impossible to know what to say I mean Alex has has has said so much of what you can say about rugby situation the essence of Lewis Moody as a man I think the way Lewis has handled it that itself sums up the bloke and and right now I don't know what I can say that Lewis certainly hasn't said you know he made the point and I thought it was an outstanding effort to say if I had my chance again I'd do it all again you know sometimes there's a school of thought that closes down options Lewis Moody isn't railing against his ill luck Lewis Moody has had a fantastic time as a rugby player personally and he's given a huge amount he gave in terms of his effort and commitment on the field.

4:47Stuart Barnes: He has done that off the field and will continue to do so. And I think it's now important. I think the main thing to do is for the rugby community to offer support in any way that is of any real substance for Lewis and his family. Which I think we know will absolutely happen. We've seen it with Doddy Weir, Rob Burrow, Ed Slater. It's something that rugby, with a really difficult topic, I think has done a really good job of really giving support to all of these guys and their families that are having to go through this. And as we've said, a great bloke, a great player. He got the nickname Mad Dog for a reason with the way he operated in the back row.

5:28He was fearless. But I suppose a lot of people will question when they hear this, given the other names that I mentioned there with former players that have had MND, is this a rugby issue? So we thought that we'd get someone on who has been looking into this, who has written about this for the Times. Delighted to welcome on Tom Kershaw. And Tom, this is a subject that you tackled, not just in rugby, but kind of in elite sport and the link between MMD and elite sport back in February. So welcome on to the Ruck. And I suppose, first off, what did you find out when looking into this, let's be honest, quite complicated issue?

6:06Hi Alfie. Yeah, as you say, it is very complicated and I'm not a qualified professor by any stretch. But I mean, I think people obviously assume that there is a connection between rugby in particular because of the high profile examples, as you say. But I think the evidence really so far is that some studies clearly link sport to M &D and some studies don't. And as all the professors were sort of keen to really stress is that if there was a definitive link, they would all be positive. So, you know, they aren't saying to people by any stretch, don't play rugby or don't do strenuous exercise, which is another sort of key area of investigation.

6:41You know, and I think up until these sort of more recent examples where the people around, for example, Doddy Ware, people like Ken Sinfield around Rob Burrow have raised so much money that sort of really brought the research on in the last few years. So, you know, there's been more studies coming out in the area that really was not being investigated as much at all. So there's obviously been one very high-profile study done in Scotland with about 412 former planiers, and that came out saying that there was a 15 times higher risk of MND. But the response to that was that it was quite a small sample size, and the experts kind of cautioned against that evidence due to the limited sample.

7:19and other studies are sort of still in process and are kind of focusing more so on rather than you know with i guess cte um you know it's obvious that taking blows to the head clearly would would be a you know terrible thing to to do when you look at the effects of dementia but actually you know in sports like there's one very interesting study that a lot of people brought up which was nordic cross-country skiers where the people who competed in four four or more races i think it was as opposed to one, obviously it's incredibly strenuous activity, were more likely to develop MND and people who competed, you know, the higher level competitors who presumably trained harder and pushed their body to the limit more also showed a higher risk of MND.

8:00And even anecdotally in clinics, a lot of the professors I spoke to would say that the people getting MND were healthy, you know, very active marathon runners, ultra marathon runners. There was one professor, dame pamela shaw who's who's really been one of the pioneering researchers had a pair of identical twins in her clinic and one was very active one was lived quite a sedentary lifestyle and the person who was very active developed mnd much quicker the symptoms progressed faster so it's not it's not necessarily a rugby only issue clearly obviously there's been a lot of high profile rugby players and i think the person on the street is immediately drawn to rugby uh as as you know a cause um but it seems to be that there's these faulty genes that are triggered somehow and whether that could be a head injury whether that could be strenuous exercise other lifestyle factors because in football there seems to be a higher rate in some studies but you know so it could be heading it could be how they're living off the pitch it could be the running they're the treat is they really don't know yet but the the kind of campaigning effort that you know obviously lewis has already been doing in a different kind of way with with brain uh with brain tumors but you know the kind of support that he will no doubt now get from people and obviously rob burrow um was able to raising so much money is kind of bringing the research on to a place where i mean it was really quite badly lacking about 10 years ago so the link seems to be potentially more elite sports people rather than any specific sport then combined with certain genetics which make it more likely that it might happen is that kind of about where where it is i i think there's i think there's about 30 genes or so that can predispose you to mnd and it's it's sort of factors that can trigger those to to mutate i mean i think they call them sort of faulty genes and and they could mutate and and sort of cause mnd to to become um active for for lack of a better word and cause these these genes to the body to start deteriorating um and i i think i mean the scientists don't know so i'm struggling to give you a completely concise answer myself But I think that head injuries is obviously an area where they focus on a lot.

10:05Strenuous exercise is an area they focus on a lot, but they're not at a point where, you know, some of the evidence in some studies does suggest that they're bringing it on. But the scientists are very cautious in saying, you know, the risk of I think it's one in 300 people have a risk of getting MND. obviously if you were to tell people don't play rugby you know don't live a really active lifestyle the the effects you know on people's health would would be far more severe if they're saying the opposite and you know encouraging them to sit at home and never play a contact sport and stuff so they're at the moment they're not i think broadly positive enough to say uh you know rugby is causing this or heading a football is causing this you know perhaps it's increasing the risk but it's not at a place where they're going to say don't you know send your seven year old your seven year old out to head a head of book clearly for cte and other things that could be very different but uh fairmen do specifically i don't think they're there i think as tom tom said one

11:02Stuart Barnes: of the important things is that we avoid hysteria and sometimes that happens and i think as tom has been saying there that the evidence coming out uh means that what we've got today is an individual tragic moment but it is not the end of rugby union i think that's very important without

11:23Alex Lowe: wanting to to create connections that aren't there my first thought when i when i read this was to go back to an interview that i did with lewis i think it must have been in 2020 i think in time because it was on it was on zoom um and it was after the um steve thompson's diagnosis of early onset dementia and at the time lewis had he'd recently lost his father to dementia and the conversation was all around the lawsuit and who's going to join the lawsuit that Steve Thompson was involved in and that lawsuit covers multiple neurological issues and I'm pretty sure motor neurone disease is mentioned in it and Lewis's point Lewis has been incredibly supportive of Steve Thompson from from what I understand but his point was as Barnsley mentioned at the outset You know, I made my decisions.

12:12Alex Lowe: I played the game in the way I wanted to play. So if there was any connection with rugby to what's happened with Lewis, I wouldn't want to put words into his mouth today. But certainly when I spoke to him about players who are suffering neurological issues, his view 100 % was it's nobody else's responsibility. He was knocked out in a game playing for England and came back on the field. He said he had full faith in everyone around him. He played the game in the way he wanted to play it. and was hugely successful in it. And I think I was just reminded of that conversation because watching Lewis on television this morning, he's going to approach this challenge in the way he's approached every other challenge.

12:53Alex Lowe: When he retired, as I said, he raised, I think, over£2 million through his foundation for brain tumours, inspired by the plight of a young boy who he became friends with. And he embarked on extreme races across Canada. developed frostbite, pushed his body to the limit to raise money and to achieve things in the same way he did on the field. And him and Annie were talking about whatever comes next, they're going to attack the future and enjoy life in the same way that he has done in all his years up to now. And I just think I have huge respect for him. And I was just reminded as we talk about what's connected and what's not connected and all these answers that no one yet knows.

13:36Alex Lowe: of his attitude and his view a few years back when we were just we were discussing it about how he wouldn't change anything because rugby was he said as he said on the television today he has had two love affairs in his life rugby and and annie his wife and you know that's really powerful i found it really quite emotional um watching it this morning well tom brilliant thank you so much for joining us i mentioned that kind of deep dive that investigation you did back in february is there an update to that that people can go and find on the times or in the paper in the coming days i think we're having a i think there's a updated version of it on the website at the moment and um i think we're going to have a we'll have a an interview uh with with someone else who's affected by emin uh his life's been affected by emin d in the sunday but that's that's unrelated and it had already been done before we heard this news this morning and um i think there'll be a kind of question and answer i guess that can be hopefully slightly more concise than my explanation on here that will be in tomorrow's paper as well just one point back to what you said alfie about the the rugby community you know we've seen what what kevin sinfield has done for his his mate rob burrow we've seen what the rugby union community has done around ed slater and whenever gloucester play leicester his two clubs it's a big fundraising event um for mnd and for his his charity that game this year will happen at villa park so it has the potential to be the biggest yet and that's from the community of the close community around around Ed Slater and the clubs but just just the wider rugby community I thought I'd have a quick look at the the GoFundMe page that was set up for Lewis Moody by Jordan Murphy and Leon Lloyd and we're only two hours really after Lewis spoke on TV and shared his news and there's already over£10 ,000 been raised for him by the time people listen to this it'll be way higher than that and I think both the wider rugby community really all they can do is is is send love and and money through the gofundme that exists it's evidence here the tighter rugby community around lewis will be will be strong and it will need to be because he's got a challenge ahead of him yeah absolutely uh tom thank you so much for joining us on the ruck really appreciate it thanks very much so second round of the prem this weekend and actually before we get into the action on the field Alex we've got to mention the big news at the back end of last week which was that Steve Diamond at Newcastle Red Bulls is gone after one round it was a rumor wasn't it it was a suggestion reports that this could happen when Red Bull took over Newcastle in the summer we had Steve Diamond on our preview podcast where he brought it up himself that there were these rumors that he whether his job was on the line and that sort of thing one round into the season what did you make of that particularly the timing of it I suppose yeah Steve Diamond I was so I wasn't surprised that he has had left because I think that was always that was always in the plan I always expected it I think Steve Diamond himself always expected it if you listen back to what he said to us on the ruck the job he'd been given was to build foundations and infrastructure for this season and he spent the summer on a frantic recruitment drive bringing in some some players of a stature that Newcastle couldn't have afforded previously.

16:53Alex Lowe: So I didn't expect him to be the long-term director of rugby at the club, but I was surprised that they got rid of him so quickly. Now they've done so because they have built and they're installing over the next month a full management structure at the club, a new management structure. Gregor Townsend has been recruited by Red Bull to be their global rugby advisor, strategic advisor, given that at the moment Red Bull's interest in rugby is only Newcastle. he's going to be advising the club on on how to build a successful club environment high performance strategy so his influence is significant because um there's a there's a large scottish uh flavor to the management structure that's coming in johnny petrie former scotland captain is coming in as managing director he spent the last five years as chief exec with ulster and uh neil mcelroy is the club's new sporting general manager um who a former Scotland prop who'll be overseeing all the rugby management activities I guess therefore you don't need a director of rugby because you have McElroy he's worked with Clermont at Auvergne and Catalan Dragons before and John Fletcher is coming in to run the academy you know so many English players credit him with their their careers because of his work in the English pathway he's been with the SIU for the last three years so those three are all coming in with with Gregor Townsend looking over the top now I would have thought that within all of that having Steve Diamond there is a bridge between what you know he understands what the club has been he understands he you know he's he's fire he's been firefighting in that club for two years pretty much I thought he would act as a as an ideal bridge going into the future to just try and keep the keep the uh the show on the road in the prem if you like while they build this structure around him but no he's gone after one game which I don't think is a reflection of his performance in the role it's for me it's indicative more of Red Bull's desire to fast track this revolution.

18:52Barney I agree with Alex in that perhaps the fact that Steve Diamond is no longer there isn't a huge shock but the timing of with which it's happened is because you look at Newcastle and the way they've started the season and as expected I mean the takeover happened so so late in the summer that their recruitment was pretty much done so they've been trying to get guys in it looks like it's going to be another tough season on the pitch for Newcastle here I'm not sure there's a better person they could have had at the helm than Steve Diamond so that's why I'm surprised at the timing of the the change

19:20Stuart Barnes: well I don't know um one can't hide from the results for two years and Newcastle have lost and lost and lost and lost and lost Steve Diamond has clearly it is it is the toughest job in Premiership Rugby but clearly he hasn't had the magic wand and ever since Red Bull's name was linked with Newcastle there has been a perception in this media in our industry that once a big corporate brand gets involved they can turn it around and so I can see why Red Bull are thinking well he's got to go because on stats alone he hasn't done a great job that's not saying he hasn't done many important things and as Alex said laying the ground but they can look at that and say we need to start fresh but I would also say there's a perception that just getting rid of the last bloke and letting the name Red Bull Newcastle take over I was reading papers and I was thinking crikey it sounds like they're going to be contenders for the title this year we have been so overly obsessed with Red Bull getting involved in rugby so I feel great sympathy for Steve Diamond but I don't think it's simple and I don't think it's easy to just say that's really hard on him because of the job he's done his job is is multi-phased he's got to do all sorts of things that we don't see at Newcastle he's got to bring that club forward but his biggest job is to get results that is he is director of rugby there and he hasn't done it but he wasn't given the tools to really no no no but we we we we don't you say he wasn't given the tools to how many matches have newcastle won in the last two seasons in the premiership two i'm really sorry two they are their team isn't that bad and you know what some people will argue yes they are um but you cannot turn i think they are you can't turn around and say

21:29Alex Lowe: he's done a great job no well I think he's done a great job in keeping any sense of of camaraderie and belief in a club where over the two seasons he's he was there they were shedding their best players mid-season in both seasons Adam Radwan leaving mid-season they're all their best players have left either in in the close season or mid-season which is even more damaging over the last two years. They're operating at maximum half the salary cap. Now, so just they have the best players, like Callum Chick was desperate to stay at Newcastle and eventually, eventually has left to go to Northampton.

22:08Alex Lowe: And you probably wonder whether he wishes he'd stayed on for one more contract. But to even keep him there for as long as they have is a success because everybody else would have jumped ship because it was a club with no resources, no budget, and the better players were leaving. And so I don't know where he could have magicked any better results from when you don't have... Newcastle sit between the second worst team in the Premiership and Ealing as the best team in the champ. I think they would have probably beaten Ealing in a relegation playoff, but you have the factor of Ealing would have known how to win and Newcastle don't know how to win.

22:50Alex Lowe: And that can be key. But I think I agree with Alfie. I think Diamond would have kept on firefighting through a challenging season, laying the groundwork so that Red Bull could have gone out and found the person they want for next year. Yeah, the results have been dreadful, but the club has been just about bankrupt, just about to go bust for a long time. It's been kept afloat and on the verge of collapse. And I don't quite know what more he could have done with the resources at his disposal.

23:22Stuart Barnes: But perception is very important. I hear what you're both saying there about that. But Red Bull coming in can look at that and just say, well, you know, result. Sport is a result during the game. That is what everyone said. Steve Diamond, you've got to remember when Newcastle were close when they won, he wasn't saying, well, yeah, don't expect us to win now. He was coming on and maybe he had to hype it, but he himself, after a game, would say, now we're going to go. So Red Bull could say, well, they didn't go anywhere.

23:54Alex Lowe: Yeah, and I think I agree with you.

23:56Stuart Barnes: I'm more taking Steve's side than Red Bull's. I have an intrinsic mistrust of major corporations. So I am actually with Steve Diamond on this. But I understand, all I'm trying to say, I understand how this new giant sized company with all their human resources would say, no, we've got to get rid of him. We've got to start fresh.

24:25Alex Lowe: I think we agree on that as well. That's why I think it's indicative of Red Bull's desire to come in and fast track this revolution. Clear the slate, if you like, have Alan Dickens holding the fort for a season. while they can go out and find the man they want. And, you know, Red Bull are being advised by Oval Insights, the data company that support England, and Steve Borthwick uses them a lot. The data will tell them.

24:54Stuart Barnes: There you go, though. You watch South Africa where you understand that they're the best team in the world because they've got a feel for the game and they've got a coach who says it's not just about statistics. And what do Red Bull do? they go to oval insights where they have important an important role to play but it seems to me that it's it's being used as a sort of a drive-in focus that's completely wrong so immediately like I say I think okay who's running this show really well let's see if Gregor Townsend ends up

25:30Alex Lowe: running it because potentially he could bring in the rugby feel that Red Bull don't have uh to hand right now so yes it's an interesting it's an interesting project I don't think anyone who actually looked at it with any kind of depth would have thought that Newcastle will be winning the league this year but I think the the fact Red Bull have come in with that network of high performance is a fascinating topic a subject for that for this season and what they might go on to achieve with the catchment area they have and John Fletcher running that academy I think it's a really interesting development in the league but anyone who thought that it was going to lead to to Newcastle reprising the days of Johnny Wilkinson and Rob Andrew and Inga Twigamala I think were sorely mistaken certainly this season but at the moment Alex you mentioned oval insights there I was just waiting for Barnsley's reaction because I could see immediately about it's like a long hot just it was why we need to get this podcast visualized so that people can enjoy that as well because as soon as you said that, I was just waiting for the reaction because I knew exactly what it was going to be and it delivered.

26:36So that's the good stuff.

26:37Stuart Barnes: You use statistics. Statistics do not drive you. And one day, Rugby Union will professionally understand that. Until they do, you will get brain-dead coaching and brain-dead performances. Well, look, if I can move us on from Newcastle, who lost to Exeter in Devon at the weekend. So it looks like they're going to be at the bottom or certainly close to the bottom of the table. Once again, if I can shift our focus actually to the top, lads, is Bath and Saracens, the only sides through two rounds that have won both of their games. Now, Exeter and Northampton haven't lost because they drew on the opening weekend, but already, and it's early days, I appreciate that, do we have our stool set out of the two best teams in this league?

27:17Is that quite revealing after two rounds?

27:19Stuart Barnes: Too early. It's too early. I mean, Northampton have got a quartet of Lions. They've got a whole host of players missing. Northampton for 80 minutes in the season have looked brilliant. It's just that the other 80 minutes, they've looked the worst team in the Premiership. Well, what do you focus on there then? Because that was the... What do you focus on there with Northampton? Because on the one hand, you look at them, you say, my word, this team look unbelievable. And then on the other hand, you say, what on earth is going on in the second half of how many points they've conceded and leads they've let slip?

27:50Stuart Barnes: There's no doubt at all. When it starts to go, it can go very fast because the premiership attacks at the moment better than it defends. But you have to have your key men in place. If Mitchell is in that team, then that lead against Exeter does not disappear like that. The lead against Gloucester doesn't disappear like that. You know, they've got absolute key players out injured. They also, because of injuries, this is where 16 to 23 in the second half, when things are just starting to get iffy, become so important. You get the right men on with the experience and they just stabilise. There's very little to stabilise Northampton.

28:37Stuart Barnes: I looked at their bench when I watched the game and, you know, I spent a lot of time watching and thinking and talking to people about rugby. And I'm thinking, I don't know a lot of these guys. They're stretched there. and you saw it against Exeter and you saw it against Gloucester. They are, at their best, a very fine team but they can't be at their best because their resources are thin to the point of snapping at the moment but when the big guns come back they'll be improved and Saracens are beating a Bristol team who also, resource-wise, they're shattered. They've been injuries everywhere and key player injuries and then their other game was a win away to Newcastle.

29:24Stuart Barnes: So it's a great start for Saracens, but I don't think it tells you anything at all.

29:28Alex Lowe: I think what it tells me about Saracens is that there is something brewing. The impact that the younger players have made in the opening couple of games of the season is really exciting. I was at the training ground a couple of weeks ago talking to Mark McCall about this being year two of a squad rebuild. It's the second sort of squad rebuild he feels he's had to do. And we were actually talking about the role that Owen Farrell will play within that as the wise old head. But I think the way that some of the academy younger players have taken to these early couple of weeks is really promising for Saracens.

30:00Alex Lowe: Knowing that as starts go, it's pretty much the perfect start. Newcastle and then an injury hit Bristol. But knowing they've got all their Lions to come back, you know, Maro Itoji, Ben Earl, Jamie George, Elliot Daly are all still to come into that team, Alex Lizovsky. I think if I was a Saracens fan, I'd be feeling really positive about the season because without those players, the youngsters are stepping up and showing a real promising, showing there's another promising crop of academy players coming through at Saracens. So I'd be really encouraged as a Saracens fan. You mentioned Bath, Alfie.

30:38Alex Lowe: I think all they've shown us is exactly what we expected, which is that the champions of, if anything, they're going to be better.

30:43Stuart Barnes: Bath looked the team to beat Saracens might be my point was only two games is too early, we have to see them play against stronger teams, we have to see what happens when they play a Leicester or a Northampton and see where we go from there or Sale, who still looks strong.

31:02Alex Lowe: In American football they refer to teams having a Super Bowl window because of the way their salary cap's enforced and players will move on for bigger contracts elsewhere, etc. They'll refer to a team's Super Bowl window. And I think Bath, they're in their championship window now. They've got Finn Russell signed up. Beyond him, I think they'll struggle to fit new contracts into the salary cap for massively important players like Thomas Dutoy, for example. So this is their period now when they've got this chemistry, this perfect collection of power and brains and now speed and ingenuity from the new signings in Arundel and Carreras to take them on.

31:50Alex Lowe: They're in their kind of championship window now for the next two or three years and it's how much silverware can they go and land? Because as we've seen, as we just discussed with Saracens, you have to rebuild scores when you're in the salary gap, especially if you max out, as Bath clearly are at the moment and will do for the next couple of years. You have to make hay while the sun shines because the rebuilding process will be a challenge. And having Russell at his, as you say, his influential max, I think Thomas Dutoy, Ben Spencer, the new threats out wide, this is their time. They won it last year.

32:24Alex Lowe: This year, they'll be favourites again. They've got a couple of years where it's their window to really maximise it. Well, if it's too early to draw too many conclusions on Bath and Saratons, is it too early to look at teams who could be in a kind of crisis? I mean, Bristol and Quinns are probably the two that I wanted to mention here. We've spoken about Bristol and the injury crisis that they're clearly in. We spoke about it on our preview pod to reference that one again when Will and I were at Twickenham and spoke about Bristol's potential back line with Harry Randall at nine and AJ McGinty at ten.

32:54Well, they're both injured. And Gabriel Libertoi on one wing, he's injured. Reece Samet went off, hopefully isn't too serious at the weekend with an injury. Tom Jordan at fullback picked up an injury which hopefully isn't too serious. So Bristol, is it fair to have quite a lot of concerns about them because of their injuries? And then the other team, Harlequins-Barnsey, which I know you've been writing about and subscribers to the Times can go online and read your thoughts on them there. But the manner of both of their performances in the opening two rounds, is it fair to have concerns there?

33:24Stuart Barnes: I don't think crisis is the word because it's just ill fortune that's really clobbered Bristol. I think what could happen is Bristol could be left behind in the start of the 100 metres final, if you know what I mean. And they might be then forced to go some to try and make the playoffs. But I remember the playoffs. I remember them playing at Bath in the semi-final and with Ravuvu at his best, they took Bath to the cleaners for 45 minutes. If the Bristol experiment works and they can learn how to even accelerate their game, not to sit back on it, but to go faster for longer. They're a threat to anyone.

34:06Stuart Barnes: But yes, the next month looks really worrying for Bristol, taking us through to the Autumn Internationals. It looks problematic. For Harlequins, I think that is even more of a worry. Marcus Smith has got to come back there, and he's got to do what a lot of people perceive as non-Marcus Smith things. He's got to get his kick in on the money. He's got to get the balance right. I mean, yesterday, one thing I didn't write, I should have written, when Don Brant went off, that seemed quite significant as well. But they've lost coaches late in the day. They don't have, I would say, great strength in depth.

34:48Stuart Barnes: I would be worried if I was a Quinns fan, but I think you can identify it. It's little things have got to be done much better, and that was their problem. I don't think there's a first, second half issue there. If they lose a couple of games, though, I think whereas Bristol, you say no crisis, but a problem. Harlequins, if they're one for five by the end of October, then you think, blimey, this could be a very difficult season. Because last year, they were the almost epitome of just below mid-table mediocrity. And they picked up a couple of wins. you go back and you look at the season they were getting quite a few narrow wins those narrow wins become narrow defeats harlequins are in in a bad place i think yeah i i would completely agree um

35:37Alex Lowe: they were the team i thought newcastle would struggle exeter have made two brilliant signings in tom hooper and lenny iketau but they don't arrive till december they don't arrive till december so they're how much difference can they make to them the next team up i was thinking as well between so you're talking at sort of who's going to finish eighth in the league seventh eighth and I'm like that's Quinn's Gloucester area for me for me if Quinn's can can get in the Champions Cup they'll probably end up thinking it's a bearing in mind that the top eight finish the Champions Cup like they may end up finding themselves in that in that sort of area at the moment I you know they talk about rebuild what do they stand for at the moment you know I thought your point about what Marcus Smith needs to do is fascinating because Quinn's have just been a sort of almost a carefree rugby side.

36:25Alex Lowe: Player power has been strong. Marla, Danny Kerr, Marcus Smith, over the years, have led how they want to play, facilitated by coaches who like that style of rugby in Enik Evans. But the senior players have gone. How does Marcus Smith now impose himself on that team? And I think trying to play their way through this is going to be problematic because I don't know if they've got the players to do that. And so we may have to see, and it may well be to his benefit, by the way, doing this. I agree with you 100 % Barnsley. Marcus may have to come in and be a different style of Marcus Smith for Harlequins.

37:01Well, it's going to be interesting to see. Only two rounds gone in the Prem. We'll cover more of it, of course, well, throughout the whole season, but next week as well. But this weekend just gone. It wasn't just the Prem in round two. It was the return of the champ. And that meant the return of Worcester Warriors to six ways, a sold out six ways. Up next, Alex and I have had a chat with their back rower, Matt Kvesic.

37:48Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

38:18to make their big day legendary. Shop now and order ahead for delivery or in-store pickup. Michaels, everything to celebrate anything. Do you keep hearing podcast ads, like this one for example, but always wonder how you actually get involved with them for your own brand or organization? Well, it's easier than you think. We're Acast, and we give you the platform to do it all yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget and launch and if you want a hand our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence this is podcast advertising without barriers get started at acast.com slash advertise well matt thanks so much for your time it's great to see you first of all how are you and how special was saturday to be back at a packed out six ways in a worcester jersey with everything that the club has been through yeah very well thank you yeah it's been a it's been a bit of a whirlwind few weeks obviously coming back and getting back into training with a completely new team and new bunch of coaches new players new backroom staff some new backroom staff yeah and obviously being back at six ways and yeah it's been like I said been a bit of a whirlwind in the last two weeks we obviously had Coventry on the weekend and before that a couple Fridays ago Bath as well with Amptill the week before so yeah it's been it's been brilliant I think the fans have loved it particularly that home game against Bath from a couple Fridays ago was absolutely bouncing so um yeah it's been very exciting how special is it you were of course part of the club previously and and had to experience and go through the really tough times that were well reported and what happened to the club kind of what does it mean for Worcester to be back it looked like a really special occasion on the weekend yeah look I think um first and foremost for the fans I think it they've they've been they've been desperate to get rugby back I didn't know if I would have the opportunity to come back and play I thought he would come back in some capacity, but whether I was fit and able or still any good would be debatable anyway.

40:23But yeah, I think just showing what the fans have shown, you know, that Friday and Saturday in particular against Coventry are packed out six ways. It's been as good as I can ever remember it. And I think there's just been the city has been crying out for Worcester to come back. And I think they've shown that in how they supported the club over not just the last couple of weekends, but probably since it started back up, we have had fan days come in and they've been absolutely packed out. Some really emotional days as well. Fans are emotional that the club is back and what it means to them and stuff.

40:53So I think it has hit home. Now it's up to us to keep bums on seats and keep them cheering in the stands with our performances.

41:00Alex Lowe: Simon Gillam was on the pod last week, chairman of the Tier 2 board. Compared Worcester's comeback to the Oasis tour, he said that because Oasis have been away for so long, that's why they're selling out Wembley Stadium seven nights. There's a similar feel about Worcester that when the club was gone it almost reminded everyone how special it was. So now that you're back they want to make the most of it and come back and Worcester are the kind of rugby's oasis. Yeah it's probably not a bad analogy. Unlike Oasis we were well supported before. I think it's just you don't know how good something is until it's gone a little bit and I think there's definitely a feeling about when it went bust I never left Worcester.

41:39Obviously, I had a little stint over in Italy with Zebre. So I sort of had eight months away there and then came back and played at Coventry for two years, but never left Worcester. I didn't move. So I'd be out in town or at shops or whatever, and you'd bump into supporters and people, you know, that were linked to the club. And it was constant questions. When's it going to come back? I've heard good news. I've heard this or sometimes negative, whatever the social media is coming up with at the time. But there was never a lack of want for it to come back. and like I said, the last two weeks and our fan training days that we've had, I think the support's there.

42:13And like we said, the city needs it as well. So like I said, it's up to us to keep bums on seats.

42:19Alex Lowe: Now you're back, Matt, do you ever look back at those days? You were right in the middle of the collapse of it. You were trying to hold things together. You were trying to lead that squad from the front. Do you look back at it as the toughest time that you've been through? As you say, you were suddenly unemployed, have to go to Italy for eight months to earn some money. How do you think back on those days? Yeah, look, it's tough. We had a really good squad. We built a really good squad. We had, obviously, Steve Diamond leading the way and I thought he was brilliant for us, exactly what Worcester needed at the time.

42:51And we felt like we were in a really good place as a club and also off the back of winning the Premiership Cup, which is huge for the club. The first trophy we'd won in, I don't know how many years. So it felt like we were in a really good spot to start kicking on. And then, obviously, to have it whipped out from under your feet like that was tough and obviously it was of course it was tough personally but you know looking at the whole picture you know like the not just the players but you know staff but particularly like backroom staff they probably had it even rougher than us you know with lack of payments or certain payments not being paid etc and and they kept going and making sure that we were fit and healthy or you know and even post that you know they were still coming in you know because we'd come in and still run on the pitch you know once once we'd been made redundant and because we need to stay fit and whatever and we still have physios in treating boys or I think Owen Williams had a broken thumb at the time and he was still getting treatment and getting S &C's running on the pitch.

43:41I think that just showed where we were as a club. So yeah, I look back on it as a tough time. All tough times, you can take some learnings from it. And I think it's one of those where I wouldn't necessarily look back with fond memories, but it's something I can learn from going forward. And I think just people are prepared for worst case scenarios, I suppose. But yeah, disappointing, but we're here now looking forward.

44:03Alex Lowe: we're at a point where there's this looming idea of r360 and kind of breakaway leagues built around this idea that rugby needs to commercialize itself a lot better sell itself a lot better when you we don't know if that's going to take off but when when Worcester folded and obviously London Irish went and Wasps went did your faith in the game falter at any point did you start looking around pro rugby and think this this isn't you know this can't work this isn't working or did you feel like there was something there that could work it just needed different leadership or different ideas uh yeah you probably i do i think it's fair to say we felt let down a little bit obviously i don't want to talk on behalf of the other clubs watson london irish because i think every as far as i'm aware of every collapse i suppose was was very different um i think you guys also know a fair bit about our one and it definitely felt like we were let down more as opposed to I suppose like run out of money for example you know I don't know I don't want to you know talk about but yeah I think there's definitely an element of when we're going through that process I thought yes we felt fairly well supported in the sense that RPA were doing what they could for us and but ultimately they can't do that much you know they can give us guidelines of what this might this is an outcome that might happen here and if this happens you can do x y and z and and I found that personally personally very beneficial because at least I I could sort of compartmentalise what was going on and I could have a rough idea.

45:28If this happens, that's the worst thing that can happen when I can do that. And if that doesn't happen, we can do it. So I found that they helped. But in terms of, I presume you're sort of aiming towards more like governing bodies and things like that. Yeah, you definitely feel like you lose a little bit of faith in it. Does rugby need a full rebrand and a facelift problem? Not necessarily a full rebound, but it needs a facelift. It needs something injecting some life into it a little bit. but I don't think the product on the pitch is the issue you know the players are quality you look at the premiership still keep obviously tabs on that and the games over the weekend the Sundays one was nuts wasn't it so the product on the pitch is great it's just is 10 teams the right for premiership obviously I've always played my career with 12 and then you know when it was 13 and most of that was with relegation which I personally I think is important because it creates jeopardy and it creates a pathway for teams to like an Exeter whether we'll ever see an Exeter again I don't know but like an Exeter push through those leagues and I think that's personally think that's quite important whether that happens obviously I you know that's what the powers will be.

46:29Matt can I ask to go back to the weekend just how difficult has it been to get yourselves to the point where you are competitive in the championship you said earlier that it's a new team new backroom staff new coaches like a lot has had to come together here for you guys to be competitive in the championship which you clearly are with a great victory at the weekend how difficult has that been and how have you done that honestly i'm like i think this is credit to the coaches um because it probably isn't but it's felt really seamless and it's felt really easy um and i think that's credit to matt everard the like the coaching the group that he's put together because it's felt fairly seamless i've not felt a training day or or a day where i'm like bogged down with information or we're having to get through too much because we've got to learn you know line outs new kickoff strategy new attack everything like that you know how we're going to you know attack the breakdown etc whatever that might look like i've not really felt ever that we've i felt bogged down in information it's been really seamless the way they've put it together packaged it and um and the way we've trained i think you know like i say credit to obviously the coaches on that and also the playing group that we've got together have just ripped in they really just got on with it and yeah it's not been perfect at times and we've had a you know ups and downs along the way but it's generally been it's generally been really good um and i think that's probably shown against you know at first uh we had a hit out against amped hill which is kind of like the two 40 minute teams and um you know a few cobwebs adjusted off there and plenty to work on and we had a good run out against you know a really strong bath team it was a um i'd say fairly heavily loaded bath team and i thought we put a really good showing in yeah we didn't get the result we'd like um but in terms of performance which is at At the moment, what we're really after is, you know, can we put on the pitch what we practice in the week?

48:13I thought we did that well against Bath. And finally, just the tightness of the group. You know, that was another big thing that they spoke about was how tight can we get this group and how quickly can we do it? It's not like we've had to introduce one or two players. It's everyone's new. So and again, I think that probably shown on the weekend with our victory over Coventry, a really gritty, hard-fought win. That's what we did. We fought for each other to the 80th minute. and credit to Carver, I thought they were excellent on the weekend and caused us a lot of trouble but that tightness shone through.

48:39Alex Lowe: How has Matt built that tightness? Has he taken your way on boot camps or taking down the pub? Which route has he taken? I don't know if I'm allowed to say but he probably summed it up on day one. So we got together on a Friday, weekend off and then on the Monday but obviously the Friday was down on the schedule as players meet, sort of a bit of a medical screening and then some fitness testing you know bronco and speed testing weights whatever that might look like and it was like meeting and obviously it's like first day at school obviously everyone's you know got new bags and and all that so we headed to the home changing room and you know meeting a lot of back slaps and hellos and handshakes and then we sit down and he's all right lads you know a bit of chat about what the you know what we're going to look like etc and then it was like right today boys we're going to get into it we've got you know we've got a bronco then we've got fitness testing then we're blah blah blah all this sort of stuff the boys faces like oh no like we thought it might be a bit more chilled but it's like flat out it's like if you just look in your lockers up above lads you have your gps and group so we're opening up the lockers as a bottle of beer and he was like lads we ain't doing any of that today just relax we're having a few beers we're going to get to know each other properly um a few beers led to a few more and a few more and then yeah nice late night but it was exactly what we needed i think you know there's no better way to bond a group like that and we've had a little camping trip away as well but I think yeah that's been a massive emphasis and I think it is going to show as the year goes on.

50:01Alex Lowe: And after two years playing for Coventry in the Champ you've got a really good idea what levels are needed to get promotion now we start the season with a championship playoff at the end of it and then at the moment the winners of that will play in a promotion relegation playoff it may be that the rules change as the season goes on and that the promotion relegation playoff gets scrapped and the winners of the end of season playoffs in the Champ will go straight it up you have an idea of what it takes to compete at the top end of that league are Worcester there uh yeah I think so yeah I genuinely I genuinely believe we do yeah we've got a very talented squad we've got a mix of some really young exciting talent that um obviously the coaches and and with the help of some of the more experienced not old but more experienced um players can like develop through and like you say we've got some good older heads who who have some experience a in the league and also you know um you know why like a lloyd williams your phrase about main your billy 12 trees you know these lads have got plenty of rugby under their belt so i think the squad that's been put together is is very exciting yeah and i think i think the big thing that we focused on and we and to be honest i've said this i've been asked that a few times about you know where have you planned where you're going to finish we really haven't spoke about and i genuinely mean this we haven't spoke about where we're going to finish in the league because of the unique situation which we're in it's it is very much cliche week after week you know this is what we're going into this week have have we performed it well what can we touch up on what do we need to brush up on more what do we need to get better on and we take it into the following week and it's rinse repeat really because we're still in a massive growth phase we're still learning and it's not going to be perfect we're gonna have some ups and downs through the season but yeah I think if we get it all right and of course if we keep people fit you know that's another thing in the championship which can really hamper um i suppose aspirations to get to the top you want to keep your your players fit and healthy and um if we can do that i don't see any reason why we can't be you know pushing towards the top at top end of the table well awesome i'm so excited to see worcester back because i know any rugby fan will be in to see how you get on this season just final thing to ask as well plans for life after rugby after this you've got an exam is that right yeah don't jinx it now because i don't i don't want to have to ask any questions if i passed it or not because there's a strong possibility I won't but if I don't I'll blame it on you guys because you've distracted me with my revision now so um yeah so I got an exam after this but um we'll keep fingers and toes crossed yeah okay awesome financial advisor stuff as well yeah that's that's that's the plan at the moment so um yeah a couple I'm gonna hang on to rugby as long as we can all right so uh good on you we'll see see how long I can get out of the body and uh body and mind to be honest but uh see how long we can drag the body on for and uh whilst I'm still enjoying it but yeah well good man good luck for the season good luck with that and really appreciate you joining us on the rock last one cheers guys thanks very much

52:50so to finish off this week's ruck tried to fit a lot in the conclusion of the rugby championship which happened at twickenham argentina taking their home game against the spring box to west london barnesie you were there we didn't quite get the kind of blockbuster exciting finish to the rugby championship, like some of the earlier rounds where we were getting incredible matches every single week. But despite that, is it still one of the great rugby championships?

53:15Stuart Barnes: The greatest rugby championship I've seen in its variations from tri-nations through to this, definitely. I mean, you think about it, Australia beat the Springboks at Ellis Park for the first time in 59 years. No one expected it and they were brilliant. And OK, South Africa were caught off guard, but it was an epic. Argentina managed their first ever win on home soil against the revered and Argentina like most of the rugby world they revere the black shirt and the fern they beat New Zealand at home it was a massive achievement for them you then had South Africa putting on one of the great performances of all time to inflict a record defeat in New Zealand against the all blacks I was in Australia when the Aussies actually stopped looking at Rugby League for two weeks when they just nicked a win against Argentina in the last play of the game.

54:10Stuart Barnes: And then the next week, they just lost with the last play of the game. You then throw in Sasha Feinberg, Ngomazulu's performance in Durban against Argentina, which was the individual highlight I think since Dan Carter in 2005 against the Lions it has been a great tournament the weaker teams Argentina and Australia stepped up South Africa were beatable but they're beatable because they are plotting towards the next World Cup and that needs to be said and New Zealand looked flawed but they still managed to beat the Springboks as well it was a great tournament If the Six Nations is half as good as the Rugby Championship 2025, we're in for a real feast of rugby in the Six Nations 26.

55:01Yeah, well, it's fascinating, isn't it? I think what we can agree on is the Rugby Championship this year has been unbelievable. And I agree, Barnsley, with your point as well of Sasha Feinberg and Gonzulu and him breaking through. I think that has been, besides the fact that they've actually won it, the best thing for the Springboks here. I think they've got their future 10 and Australia and Argentina find themselves in a fascinating point. and then for all the reaction in New Zealand to that record defeat in Wellington, they're still a side on their day that are capable of getting some pretty big scouts and they could take a few in November as well.

55:31So I think the international rugby landscape at the moment feels quite even to me. We'll see what that looks like when we get to November. Lads, it's always going to be a busy pod and loads to try and fit in. We'll leave it there. If anyone wants to drop us an email on anything we've touched upon, it's been quite a varied episode this week, then email the ruck at the times.co.uk. Barnsley, pleasure to have you back on.

55:54Stuart Barnes: It was lovely to be back. And Alex, what does your week look like? Trip to Exeter, am I right?

55:59Alex Lowe: Yes, Thursday, I'm going down to Exeter to do some interviews at the club. I've also talked to Jack Yendall because he's a guy who's been with Exeter through their rise and their glories and now their struggles. Because on Thursday night, I'm going to watch the premiere of The X-Men, which is that Rob Kitson, a colleague of ours who works for The Guardian, wrote a book on Exeter's rise from the championship to kings of Europe. It's been turned into a play. So I'm off to Exeter on Thursday night to take in the premiere of Rob's play and to see whether perhaps the dramatisation of the glory days can inspire the Chiefs to get somewhere back close to those heady times of being champions of England and champions of Europe.

56:42Stuart Barnes: I think my seat is next to yours on Thursday, Alex. We'll have a beer beforehand.

56:47Alex Lowe: Lovely, I look forward to it Barnsley Sounds good, gents really appreciate it thank you as well for all of you for listening do leave us a review, follow and subscribe wherever you get your pod from, this has been The Ruck the journalist's rugby podcast from the Times and the Sunday Times

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