Madness, brilliance and problems: Another weekend in the Champions Cup

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0:31Alfie: Today's episode of The Ruck is brought to you by Allianz. They've been part of the rugby family for over 13 years now, backing the game at every level from the muddy grassroots pitches to the biggest stages in the sport. And their partnership with the home of England rugby, Allianz Stadium, isn't just about putting a name on the building. It's about backing the future of the game and the generations still to come. We're proud to have them on board. Let's get into it.

1:12Alfie: Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. It's Alfie here. I'm back. I missed a couple of episodes last week, but Alex and Will were holding the fort. There's no Will this week. He's on his way back from Bordeaux. He was there covering the Northampton game. But we're back in studio on a Monday. Alex is to my right-hand side. All right, Alex? All right. We were holding the fort and you were holding the baby. I was. And not getting much sleep. I've been telling you all my tales of lack of sleep, which I won't share on the pod because I know that I'm not alone and everyone goes through it.

1:42Alfie: But preparation for these pods is very different for me these days than what they used to be. Well, it's good to have you back. I appreciate it. Alex, good weekend of rugby. You were at the Sarri's game on Sunday. Yeah, it was good. there were a couple of standout games this weekend actually the Saracens-Toulouse game was one of them I feared a bit for Saracens going in having seen them at Leicester seeing how soft they were how much they they just weren't up for it against Leicester well they were up for it against Toulouse and it was a special evening yeah I suppose it was a weekend in some ways which sums up the Champions Cup in that there are some absolute mad games the Bulls-Bristol is what I'm thinking of there which we'll come on to there were some brilliant games as well you mentioned the Sarri's won the Leinster, La Rochelle and then some that are a bit more forgettable and the issues in this competition raise their head once again which we probably will speak about on this episode.

2:29Alfie: Also alongside Alex and I is Elgin Olderman all right Elgin?

2:32Elgan: Hello yes I was also at Saracens Toulouse we were both of us there so we enjoyed it in different capacities and slightly shorter journey here than Will's from Bordeaux so able to make it back this morning.

2:42Alfie: And you were also covering Cast Bath as well on the weekend to kick things off on the Friday.

2:47Elgan: Yes I dressed at my spare bedroom as if it was the Stade Armandie pretending it was cast. Fortunately I have actually been there when I was eight years old so I was just remembering what it was like seeing Gregor Townsend playing there when back in 2000 I think it was 2001 it might have been maybe when they were playing Newport so I had a sense for it at least.

3:03Alfie: Alex I think it says a lot about Elgin the man we see in front of us now that as an eight-year-old he was doing European away games as a Newport season ticket holder. Yeah and particularly away games in France that is Elgin distilled I'd say. Yeah, exactly. So Champions Cup, we'll get into that, the permutations, who's qualified, who hasn't, what is going to look like this coming weekend. And then we're going to do some any other business as well. There's a few different stories circulating over the last week or so. Premier Sports are going to be broadcasting some of the Six Nations. So in part, it going behind a paywall, everything going on with the WRU, which you may well have seen that the turmoil in the Welsh game.

3:38Alfie: And then also some of Newcastle Red Bull's recruitment is getting very, very interesting ahead of next season. So a bit of a mixed pod for you. Shall we start, though, with Saris, given that you were both at that game, the final game of the weekend? Alex, you've already teed it up for us there. But, I mean, Saris' biggest win of the season by some distance, isn't it? Yeah, and, I mean, massive in so many ways, really. They needed it for their campaign, but they almost needed it for their European prospects. But they needed it for their season because Mark McCall, certainly in our company, never raises his voice.

4:09But his words at Welford Road last week were cutting. towards his team. I mean, he questioned their commitment, their attitude. Now, Saracens, for over a decade, have never been a team where attitude would be a problem. And a lot of that, the tone was set by guys like Owen Farrell. And so I was fascinated to see how they would rebound. And you would expect, a little bit like Harlequins, you'd expect some kind of a rebound. But it was emphatic. And it was Saracens of old. I was watching it with my son was next to me. and about 20-25 minutes in I said to him I think Saracens need to fire a shot here they've not been down to Toulouse end they're soaking up a lot of pressure they're 7-0 down and then what unfolded in the next 20 minutes was just some brilliant Saracens rugby and then the second half it was an arm wrestle they wouldn't let Toulouse back in it enough and it was super impressive and there were some standout performances Tom Willis against his brother but Tom Willis was having been so quiet at Leicester kind of not up for it almost at Leicester maybe because his brother was there was just in beast mode he was unbelievable I thought Ironi Marwi had an outstanding game his 100th game for for Saracens and and he appeared he just seemed to be everywhere making tackles carries um doing his best sort of Mako doing a polar impression I thought he was outstanding that's the kind of standard that you expect of Saracens that's that sort of grit and and sort of determination and and accuracy in like horrific conditions and it was impressive and that now for them needs to be it's almost like they've found their benchmark again their season's been a yo-yo season as Mark McCall readily concedes they can't string together good performances or they're going to have to because they've got Glasgow Warriors coming up this weekend again they need to replicate that kind of performance because Glasgow are doing brilliantly

6:01Alfie: Yeah what about Toulouse though Elgin because I don't think after three matches we would have thought we'd be in this position where you look at the standings in Pool 1, with one game to go, played three games, they've lost two of them. They need a win on the final weekend to qualify. We're not sure whether they'll have home field advantage for the last 16 or certainly further on into the competition. What's going on with Toulouse at the moment?

6:23Elgan: Yeah, it's strange. They're still top of the top 14, and it was only a few weeks ago that they absolutely destroyed La Rochelle, where it was Antoine Dupont et al at some of the finest you'll ever see them play. but in this European campaign again going 21-0 up in Glasgow it just looked like it was going to be another group stage where Toulouse just put 50 or 60 points on everyone they come up against and then to just completely fold in that second half to lose 28-21 in Glasgow and then you know that they they're missing a few players with injury Romain Antemac, François Crow but you know everyone's missing players with injuries most of the time they still had Dupont, Ramos, blicking on filling in at 10 jack willis so they still had most of their star players there they had prioritized the game because they did rest a lot of the players for the top 14 game against perpignan the previous weekend which they lost as a result but they went all in on this game and yeah to lose again to have lost twice in three games as you say it leaves them now i mean it would be a real shock if they lost at home to sail sharks next weekend but they're in a situation now where they they can still get that home home round of 16 tie in the champions cup but equally if results do go quite bizarrely there's a there's a there's a scenario where they are actually in the challenge cup which would be quite something as unlikely as that is it's uh yeah strange times at Toulouse I still think if they make it through to the round of 16 even if they have to go away from home once or twice they're still to lose they've still got all those stars they're going for a fourth successive top 14 title which only they have ever done before in the 90s so do not rule them out yet but certainly it's a it's a two-round wobble that we haven't

8:02Alfie: seen for quite some time yeah i mean i feel like it sums up some of the issues of the champions cup that it is possible that toulouse might drop into into the challenge cup in terms of the qualification then so pool one glasgow and sale have already qualified i think sale will be delighted about that given that they have this away trip to to lose on the final weekend um in pool two nobody's qualified yet so that's kind of wide open leinster and harlequins have qualified in Pool 3 and in Pool 4, Bordeaux, Bristol, Northampton have all already qualified. Within that, there's a lot of permutations of what seeds all these teams are going to be, so who gets home field advantage and everything like that.

8:40Alfie: I know you've been looking at it, Elgin, the qualification permutations. One thing that some people may well have seen is just how many games, well, it's a double-edged sword, this, actually, how many games there is still something riding upon on the final weekend, which maybe also exposes some of the issues which we've been over before about the Champions Cup and the amount of teams from 24 that get through, obviously, into 16 of them into the next round.

9:05Elgan: Yeah, I think we'll start with the very bottom of Pool 4, which is where the most surprising possible problems with this format arise. You've got a situation where the Vodacon balls are lying in six. They haven't won a game yet. And yet, if they were to win in Poe, they would get into the round of 16 for the Champions Cup, which they would actually have slightly more points than Ulster had last year, last season when they made it through. So, I mean, we've rehearsed many of these arguments before. We might rehash them again here now. But this situation where you do perhaps only have to win one of your four games to make it through to the Champions Cup round of 16 is a stick to beat the competition with.

9:47Elgan: Pool 2, like you say, Bath-Edinburgh. I want to start with that. bath great win out in cast on friday night congratulations at home if you realize that i called it stad armandy not stad pf arbre i did i've got argen on the brain but cast of course play at stad pf arbre um which leaves us with bath edinburgh um i mean bath should expect to be edinburgh at home really shouldn't they in that in that game on on friday night which would ensure a home tie for them but then again in pool two you've got a situation where gloucester who seemingly a club in crisis are in fifth in pool two and could still qualify for the for the champions cup round of 16 as well so everywhere you look there is there is something riding on it even if perhaps people aren't quite as as happy with the fact that there are so many things up for

10:32Alfie: grabs it's a funny thing here alex because i know yourself and will have gone through this already this season it's a conversation we had last season and probably the season before that when it comes to the Champions Cup there are issues with the format which we go over we chat about we know it doesn't quite work and so we don't have to fully go through all of that again here but some of what Elgin's just outlined there it does once again reinforce doesn't it the problems with this competition yeah completely they they lost a week during Covid they expanded the competition I mean there is that saying they do say if it takes longer than a than a minute to explain the format of a competition then competition isn't going to work and that's exactly where we are with the Champions Cup and yeah to rehearse the kind of the long discussion we had on the pod ultimately it comes down to the fact that the competition is too big there are too many teams who qualify 8 of the 10 Prem teams qualify there used to be 6 from England when we get into the Champions Cup now it's then it was 8 from 13 and now it's 8 from 10 so you have a lot of games where as I've said teams can lose 3 of the 4 and still make it through to the round of 16 to the point where that should be the competition Now, if you had a 16-team competition when you've got 16 teams in the URC, 14 in France and 10 in England, you're going to limit qualification, but you will add a layer of jeopardy into the domestic leagues that doesn't exist right now.

11:54The Prem has no relegation. If the top five, say, qualified for the Champions Cup, you'd have an element of a race for Europe in the Prem, which doesn't really exist at the moment. Not at all. If you've got the top eight. so the competition is too big too unwieldy too many games don't matter the format is when we had andre esterhaisen on he was like it's not that the sharks don't care he's he's just said we have to manage a whole season so is there a way of of arranging it so that you get that the sharks or the south african teams play back-to-back home games or back-to-back away games you know then they'd have to be paired up with the european team who would go down there and play back-to-back games but if you're going to include the south africans you have to find a way that the team like the Stormers who at full strength based on their form this season would beat Harlequins where they feel they need to send the full team to the stoop to play Harlequins they've won in Bayon they've won at home they're doing really well over the season and we know that John Dobson takes the competition seriously he really wants to compete but he also has to manage his players and they left some of the biggest names at home the Sharks did the same for their game against sale no if the competition to work every team every game has to be feel important at the moment they're not because you can go through with one or two wins therefore you can pick and choose uh and it undermines the competition and it you know i think there are i know there are one or two senior officials in the game who want to get this changed getting competition formats altered or reinvented in rugby can take a long time but the pr they get on it every year is dreadful we we love the end product the the knock once you get to the knockout stages certainly quarterfinals fantastic and each each pull round has thrown up some great games i was just about to say that

13:42Alfie: even this weekend it's almost like it's teasing you isn't it with lentz to larachelle and some of those other games but then it's just not enough at this stage to hold up the competition All the matches need to be like that. Ideally, yes. But it's not enough because you're playing in a format where you're looking at the pools, but the pool tables don't align with the fixtures that the teams are playing. You can get teams qualifying with losing records. So, yeah, you get a couple of showpiece matches every weekend and they are fantastic. And you mentioned this weekend, Leinster-La Rochelle, that kind of trilogy between, well, it's more than that.

14:17I saw them play in the pool stages last year where Lentz beat La Rochelle down there. They're always good games, but there aren't enough of them. Or they're kind of diluted by the fact that what do they actually matter? And that's the problem with the format. Ultimately, it comes back to the competition being too big, too many teams qualify from the three leagues, and I'd cut it right back to 16. Potentially, you might have to compromise on 20, but definitely not 24.

14:43Alfie: Yeah, no, for sure. Elgin, earlier you mentioned Glasgow, who are a side in great position at the moment, currently top of pool one. They've played three. They've won three. I saw our very own Mark Palmer tweeting that absolutely Glasgow should have aspirations of winning this competition. To broaden that out, who do we look at at the moment as the favourites? I suppose in particular to link it back to what we were just saying about Toulouse, who aren't playing that well. You're certainly not going to rule them out. Leinster are always there. Bordeaux are the defending champions. Is it those plus a Glasgow that we probably view at the moment as the sides you think have realistic ambitions of actually winning it?

15:18Elgan: I think Bordeaux, who are looking to do what La Rochelle did really, which has become European champions before they've ever been French champions and then win it again the following year, they're going to be really fired up to do that, especially because their top 14 season isn't going great thus far. They'll still be in contention at the business centre as Toulouse's great rivals. But certainly at the moment, they're looking like the main team. And yet, were they to lose at Ashton Gate next weekend, which who knows, could happen. They might not even have a home round of 16 tie. so changeable can it be but certainly yes Bordeaux in that group I mean Leinster are the undefeated team in pool three you never count them out and they've still got a lot of wounds in this competition to to heal after after recent seasons where they've just missed out I mean Bath have lost a game but they look like they might end up topping pool two so again that'll mean home knockouts as long as it is possible and then yeah Glasgow in in pool one maximum points thus far you'd have them favourites to beat Saracens at home and suddenly they might be up for that number one seeding along with whether it's Bordeaux or Leinster.

16:23Elgan: I mean, it would be a remarkable thing for Glasgow to go all the way because the Scottish team has never won this before, never competed in a final. So that's the history they're coming up against here. But those are the teams that are looking for those early seedings, which, as I mentioned, would be home knockout ties for those first two rounds. The EPCR would argue that there is a carrot in performing well in the pool stages to get a home knockout run. And that is true. But it doesn't apply so much to the South Africans because they can't host a semi-final in South Africa. So the benefit of securing that home advantage is really just to reach the semi-final.

17:02They will then have to travel to Europe to play. So again, it's not an even playing field. And I think only that really, as Elgin said, to lose, they're so good ordinarily that even having to play their home games, their knockout games away, you'd still back them. There's a few who might be targeting home seeding because they think it might give them the best chance of getting through. but that carrot doesn't appear to outweigh the sort of season management that goes on picking and choosing games, sending weaker teams to away fixtures, that sort of thing, which just undermines the whole competition.

17:40Alfie: Yeah, and I will, on that point, actually, almost contradict myself a little bit here. And having said my frustrations with this competition as a Bristol fan, which isn't something that I ever hide on this pod, I'd love it if they get a home knockout game. And who knows, maybe it then opens up for them and you get a couple of home because they've never really had that in the Champions Cup, not for a long time anyway. So that is really exciting. And that game against Bordeaux at Ashton Gate is really intriguing. One thing I did want to ask you both is can Bristol keep winning this way? Because I saw Barnsley in the Sunday Times were saying he's been converted.

18:11Alfie: He now thinks that they can. I mean, that is utterly mental game against the Bulls. Bulls 49, Bristol 61. A Bulls side, by the way, I know in this competition they are not doing much. They're not in a great spot at the moment, but 10 springboks in that team. I mean, Bristol, they're just kind of defying odds and expectations of them at the start of the season, aren't they? When you think of all the injuries they've had in the Prem, they've won three from three now in the Champions Cup. That's an amazing win, isn't it, Alex? It was. I can't quite fathom why the Bulls are struggling so much when they've got so many players, so many spring mocks.

18:45They're playing at altitude. I mean, Loftus-Versfeld used to fill an impregnable stadium for European teams. I wonder if it's Glasgow Warriors who went down there and won the URC final there, sort of punctured the aura of the plate or something. So I can't fathom how a team full of Springboks, and we know how effective the Springboks are at controlling games, can allow the game to become this freewheeling riot of points. And Bristol were sensational. They loved those kind of games, and they dealt with the conditions, the heat and the altitude superbly and their accuracy. They picked off, they took full advantage of errors from the Bulls, of course.

19:32But they played some scintillating rugby and they're 21-0 up in eight minutes. I couldn't believe what I was watching and then it just carried on. Halftime was 47-23. 28, 47-28, yeah.

19:44Elgan: I mean, that's a ridiculous scoreline. and I think the point of Barnsley's column which I urge everyone to read is that the instinct for high scoring games is to go wow defence was optional you know training run you can't win knockout matches

20:00Alfie: you can't win knockout matches that way and his point is that sometimes it's down to great skill and great attack and maybe maybe convention can be turned on its head and you can start winning big games by playing attacking rugby and targeting space instead of deciding that you need to close things down and play the percentages now I love his I love his romance it hasn't ever really happened if Bristol were to do it they would be breaking the mold and it's different to like Toulouse have a have an attitude and a swagger and a style of how they play which is to keep the ball alive and find space and keep moving but it's it's still calculated it's still that's you know they they have a they have a a start yeah an attitude of style whereby they understand what each other's doing barnes's point is attacking rugby is often seen as high risk high reward to lose win all these titles playing in their way and they can score some sensational tries and play brilliant rugby but then when they when they won the european cup at tottenham antoine du pont was playing as a fourth flanker winning four turnovers on the floor like they can play different ways they just when they're in full flow Bordeaux the same um different way but they play this this fast scintillating rugby because they're looking for space all the time sometimes it's unconventional um and that's different to what Bristol are doing and it's different to what Stuart Barnes was was writing about in his in his column and it would it would break the mold if Bristol were to see this through because the Bulls are the kind of team although they they're not doing great in this competition but they've got the kind of players who you think would try and shut them down shut bristol down and the deeper you go that's the leinsters those teams who apply control so if saracens if our saracens play like they played the physicality the control you know don't kick to bristol don't allow them those opportunities that'll be you know if they can come up against teams who want to apply the squeeze and still play and attack the space rather than run into bodies and play for space rather than play for collisions then then they'll have broken the mold in winning a title because teams just haven't done it because when it comes to the crunch the the perception is that the risk is too high to play open like that because you'll be picked off and they did concede a lot of points well i was just about to say that even my bristolian heart looks at it and said you can't rely on just outscoring the opposition every time when you're also still shipping 49 points but at the moment it's really good fun and I do give them a huge amount of credit because the cards they've been dealt as I've said already to start this season have not been ideal but they're in a great spot in the Prem really strong position in the Champions Cup so yeah let's see where it leads us to what one quick point on it as we head into the Six Nations we're going to get the conversation about whether club rugby translates into test rugby now if if you start seeing teams winning international rugby competitions playing like Bristol, then the game has changed.

23:08Alfie: Yeah, I just can't see that. Well, you can't see it. You can't see Steve Borthwick championing that style of rugby because he'll see the risks in it. And so I think we can, you know, I think the Prem and certain European games and Bristol, I guess, as the flag bearers of it, are playing like a richly entertaining style of rugby. The Prem has been fantastically entertaining. Steve Borthwick won't have found it particularly useful for what he wants to achieve in the Six Nations where the style of rugby has always been different and I guess the what Barnsley's saying is that maybe it doesn't need to be different but it feels you have a long way to go before the mindset of international coaches will change.

23:49Elgan: The danger is that Bristol pay for their win almost immediately because we've seen teams before go full throttle in South Africa win a great game and then struggle the weekend after for that very reason. Pat Lamb said immediately after, I was at the Bristol sail game on the 2nd of January when it was Long John's weather and immediately, they'd only just won 19-17. He said immediately, we're going there to win. We're taking everyone out there. They've done that. They've won. The danger now is that perhaps they struggle from the journey and everything that was required against that Bordeaux team that is so thrilling to watch with Jalibert et al in the mix.

24:30Elgan: So if they can back it up, then that is a tremendous double act. But there is that danger that they do pay for what they had to do last weekend.

24:37Alfie: And we've got to mention with Bordeaux, actually. I mean, that game against Bristol is so intriguing, but we've got to mention the game yesterday as we were recording this against Northampton. I mean, a lot of the headlines in the build-up were about Henry Pollock. We had him on the pod last week. Alex, you and Will went to Northampton to have a chat with him. A lot of the headlines were about him. and even in defeat, a lot of the headlines are still about him because I absolutely loved it, particularly that first try. The chip and chase, beating Penneau, the pulse check celebration, shushing the crowd.

25:06Alfie: Look, I know Northampton lost convincingly. They got themselves a try bonus point. That was good fun. That was really good fun.

25:12Elgan: Henry Pollock is, no surprise to say, somewhat of a divisive figure in rugby, but somehow the Stade Chabon Delmar seemed to hate him more than anyone else. And as we know, it all dates back to that final last year where they basically concocted something that he didn't really say and turned him into the bogeyman. And then the pulse check celebration and all that. So he was always going to be such a central figure. Scored two tries. One was a brilliant score. Of course, Northampton ended up losing convincingly. But as is often the case, he was just the protagonist in many things and the man that people were watching.

25:48Elgan: there were Northampton Saints fans dressed up as him in the crowd weren't there I think yes it's this Bordeaux Pollock hate-hate relationship perhaps maybe we should call it

25:58Alfie: has some legs in it yet Alex I remember on the Lions tour when we were chatting about Pollock and you described him as a player that makes things happen again that was just the case wasn't it in that game in Bordeaux yeah and he's 20 years old or 21 this week I think he you know and there were some errors he then he dropped he dropped the kickoff yeah unbelievable try reminiscent of that try scored a sale quick thinking and um to receive the cross kick immediately dropped it onto his foot chased it ripped it off penno scored with a big dive all the celebrations triggered a scuffle and so there's a lot there's a lot of noise around him but what does he do on the field he he does make things happen now he also made he then he then dropped the kickoff after that try he made it a couple of errors but the guy's like no one's saying he's the finished article he's 20 years old who's been on this ridiculous ride for a year and does capture the imagination in the game now whether you like him or dislike him you can't help but notice him and talk about him and that i think that's all great you know some i think there's a danger that it becomes a pantomime that's too great for his what he's actually doing on the field if saints had won you know everyone every player will make an error he he's not perfect as a rugby player yet he's raw in certain ways but he's also there's a maturity about the way that he see he can seize a moment and make something happen which not every young player can do i don't think and i think Saints manage him really well I just think you have to allow him to do what he does on the field he will, as he gets older what I wouldn't want him to do is to pocket the moments like that try he scored or the carry when he who did he run into?

27:49Alfie: Yeah, was it the replacement nine was it? Yeah, and the force of that carry like the moments, I wouldn't want him to pocket the moments because he doesn't want to make a mistake that's not his game i also i also wondered whether that there was a part of pollock at the moment that reminded me of when we spoke to tom curry on the lions tour who said that he bases his game these days less on highlight moments and almost the nuts and bolts how quick do i get off the ground and all that sort of thing and whether obviously you still want pollock to keep these x-factor incredible moments but cutting out the mistake of dropping the kickoff and probably that some of that more unseen work is maybe the stuff that he'll look at as his proper work on that's the stuff that would get him into the England starting 15 regardless of how they decide to load a bench that's the kind of stuff that England will be looking at to improve him as a as a player for the team but you never want to get into a position where you take away his ability because he's got an ability to to to create those moments so so why why create any kind of narrative around him where oh he's made these mistakes you don't want him to stop doing that because that's what makes him different that's what breaks the game open i never really thought

29:05Elgan: about them at the same time but as you were talking then about the the x-factor moments and the nuts and bolts i suddenly started thinking of justin tipperick you know tipperick and polly are very different characters as people yeah but tipperick was a flanker who could score 50 yard solo tries kick over the top he struggled to to get into the wales team because you had warburton and Lydia dovetailing together as the archetypal six and seven. Tipperick had his moments, of course, but he also learnt to deal with the heavy duty moments to get turnovers when you had three or four forwards smacking into you.

29:37Elgan: So it's not a comparison I've followed before, but just then, as you were talking about it, I was suddenly thinking about Justin Tipperick. So I thought I'd bring him up.

29:44Alfie: And do go back. And if you haven't listened already, listen to the episode from Northampton that Will and Alex did last week. We put it out on Thursday before the Bordeaux game, but the interview of Henry Pollock I thought Phil Dowson spoke really well on Pollock as well it was really really interesting and there's a bit of a perception of Henry Pollock isn't there at the moment but I think when you listen to him I'm not entirely sure where that perception comes from other than I know his play is full of character and swagger but you listen to him talk and he doesn't come across that way at all so do go and check out that interview yeah I would just that there is a danger that we think that we can pick on the mistakes and go oh he's not as good as we all think he is because he's had this ride this rise he's ridden his way onto a lions tour and into an england 23 that we think he's the finished article he's miles off the finished article he's got these he's got unbelievable pace in and in rugby instincts that not many players have now there are areas of his game that need to improve and and some of that unseen work he's working on on on his line out he's working on his breakdown accuracy you know that kind of unseen the work off the floor that sort of stuff he's working on loads of things because he's 20 and he's had like a year and a half of adult rugby and the hype around him would suggest that he is the kind of you know he's he's the world champion heavyweight fighter who's who's 30 years old he's not he he's got a lot that he needs to work on and improve and cut out some of the raw elements to his game 100 and phil dowson talked about that to us last week all i'm saying is i don't i would hate it if in trying to improve those other bits and cut out some errors you dissuade him from producing that those magic moments those those just in tipperick style moments um because he's a rare athlete he's a rare rugby player so so just i'd say just just back him and and enjoy Enjoy the ride.

31:43Enjoy it. It's a hell of a lot of fun watching him play. 100%.

31:45Alfie: So final fixtures this weekend in the pool stages of the Champions Cup. Elgin, Alex, what's your pick of these games? So pool one, Sharks, Claremont. It's not going to be that one. Toulouse, Sale, Glasgow, Saracens in pool two. It's Bath, Edinburgh, Munster, Cast and Gloucester, Toulon. Pool three, Bayon, Leinster, Stormers, Leicester, La Rochelle, Harlequins. Two Harlequins we haven't actually mentioned, but they're kind of back to their Quincy best in their victory over, admittedly, a pretty poor Stormers side. And then in Pool 4, Northampton Scarlets, Bristol Bordeaux and Poe Bulls. What takes your fancy of that lot?

32:20Elgan: I think the four fixtures on Sunday, not just because you've got Bristol Bordeaux, which I think everyone should be excited to see, but you've then got, I think most people would expect Northampton to win at home to Scarlets quite comfortably, but they'll be looking for that home knockout tie. larachelle v harlequins like we say harlequins have admittedly at home but they've scored more than 60 points in two pool games thus far so they might go to the i've spoken before about how sometimes a new competition can just give a team an opportunity to to fashion a very different narrative to what's going on in their league season so you do think can harlequins somehow muster something away to larachelle and then finishing with glasgow saracens given everything we've spoken about before those those sunday fixtures as a as a block of four do look quite enticing.

33:05Yeah, I'm going to go to Bristol Bordeaux, really only because Mark Palmer will be at Glasgow Saracens. I think that's the game I'd like to attend. Markle will be there for the Times on Sunday, so I'm going to do Bristol Bordeaux, I think.

33:20Alfie: Good stuff. Alright, well we'll cover all of that with how the knockout stages look in the Champions Cup next week. We'll have a quick break and then we're going to finish off this week's episode with some Any Other Business. Just a quick breather to tell you about today's sponsor, Allianz, a partner that's all about opening rugby up to more people. Their support goes way beyond Allianz Stadium. Through the Allianz Future Fund, they've already put over£100 ,000 straight into community clubs across the UK, helping fund projects that bring new people into the game. And with the Allianz Kickstart programme now reaching 5 ,000 schools, thousands of kids are getting their first taste of rugby, some for the very first time.

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35:46Alfie: So a bit of a mixed bag for us to finish on. We'll get on to the WRU and some of Newcastle's recruitment in just a moment but Alex this story interested me last week which was that Premier Sports have acquired some of the rights to the Six Nations so it's not the England games they remain on ITV but they've got one game each round either involving Wales or Scotland I suppose that the thing that interests me the question that came to my mind when I saw this story which is often a discussion we have around the Six Nations and it's staying on free-to-air television was is this the Six Nations dipping their toe in the water for potentially it eventually going behind a paywall which we probably don't have the answer to do we but but what do you what do you make of it well i mean they are dipping their toe into paywall i think it's an interesting development so the fact that the premier sports will show scotland and wales games it makes sense because the rugby subscriber in those countries will already have premier sports to watch the urc whereas in england as we've discussed repeatedly that the champions cup goes sort of slides by because so many English rugby fans won't subscribe to it because the rugby is on TNT.

36:51Alfie: I should also say as well that those games are still going to be on free-to-air TV, it's just they're also going to be on Premier Sports. Yeah, which is for me an interesting point. So I think if the Six Nations want to test who watches Six Nations on a subscriber platform, then this is a smart way of doing it because your rugby fan in Edinburgh or Cardiff who already has Premier Sports to watch URC, now has a choice where they want to watch their Six Nations game. And if it was me, I think the BBC and ITV have traditionally done a very good job for the masses. But I enjoy watching rugby on TNT, for example, because they're broadcasting to a rugby audience.

37:35So the analysis is deeper and it's more of a rugby broadcast. So that's interesting. And that might be a way for the Six Nations to gauge how many they could attract onto a platform that rugby fans will already have in those countries your point about are they dipping their toe in to kind of test where they take the whole competition behind behind paywall i'm not sure but it's interesting in that they always they always consider pay tv because that's where the money is we were all working on the basis and i think i think six nations limited were working on this basis as well that six nations would remain on free-to-air TV, BBC ITV, and the Nations Championship would go to TNT.

38:19Alfie: Who had the November. Who already had November and were given an exclusive window to bid for it. As we reported the other week, the Nations Champ is going to go to ITV. So the July tests and November tests and the finals weekend will be on one of the ITV channels. And so I don't know, but are they now thinking, well, if Nations Champ is free-to-air, can we flip our strategy around and explore whether the six nations could go behind onto a subscription platform i think that would be really dangerous because the six nations has that's the thing that the casual viewers will watch i don't i don't think south africa v england in uh johannesburg in july in the middle of the football world cup will attract six to nine million viewers on itv probably because it'll be on itv two three or four because the football will be on the main channel whereas if we get to the the point that england ireland or france england in this six nations could easily attract those numbers six nations has a cachet that i think would be they'd be careless to lose i agree um and putting behind the paywall so maybe this is a test maybe it's a test to see how many viewers actually want a deeper dive into their rugby analysis rather than the sort of broad brushstrokes that you get understandably get on um on free to air i'm not sure but it's an interesting one to follow yeah um to see exactly where where the landscape shifts to i agree with you though that i think it would be very dangerous to the six nations to lose that free to air coverage it's so important for it it's the thing that so many people watch the six nations that watch no other rugby and so many of them will stop watching six nations if it goes behind the paywall i think i think you're also absolutely right that if i had the option between tnt and the bbc i probably would choose tnt because their rugby coverage is better so yeah as you say one to one to keep an eye on can we stick with the international theme for just a moment and elgin can you update us on the latest chaos in the welsh game and the wru and the grassroots clubs yes it's the the sort of email that probably would have made

40:27Elgan: larger headlines were these slightly normal times but these things just sort of pass us by now that the email arrived at 8 15 p.m on friday night which is always a good time to publish good news so you can tell it was only going to be all positivity but the header was wru issues stark warning to all member clubs this this came after the the central glamorgan district has been circulating a letter calling for an extraordinary general meeting and it's suffice to say that the tone of this email was not one of conciliation or listening. I'll quote some of the letter, some of the email rather than WIU.

41:02Elgan: The WIU says the proposed motions would reverse hard-won progress, stall vital investment and jeopardise the prosperity of Welsh rugby at every level. That was the theme of the warning. It continues, the WIU has already delivered a clear costed plan backed unanimously by the board and shaped by the most extensive consultation in Welsh sport. That plan is underway every week of uncertainty, damages, progress. Brief refresher, of course, WIU, in the midst of trying to reduce from four to three professional teams, at one time the best plan was four, then it was two, now it's three, possibly four.

41:37Elgan: You've got a situation where the Scarlets and the Ospreys are possibly battling out for their very survival to represent West Wales as well as a team in Cardiff and East Wales. You've got the prospect of the owners of the Ospreys buying into Cardiff, which I believe perhaps this morning some Cardiff fans came out and said they don't want to be associated with that. So they don't want it to feel like Cardiff have stolen the Ospreys owners was the tenor of what the Cardiff fans were saying. Understandable. Of course, Wales, we've been talking on this podcast about Jack Morgan, Dewy Lake joining Gloucester.

42:10Elgan: Now we've had Aaron Wainwright joining Leicester Tigers, so some of Wales' star players leaving. someone like Dan Edwards, the future hope at number 10, he's actually resisted the lure and re-signed for Ospreys despite not knowing if they will even exist once that happens. Steve Tandy will be naming his Six Nations squad next week, I believe, but at the same time, some of the WIU executive will be giving evidence in Parliament to the Welsh Affairs Committee on the future of rugby in Wales, where there might be an EGM possibly during the Six Nations maybe, based off the timelines at the moment.

42:43Elgan: So if anyone hoped that Wales would be looking to avoid a third successive wooden spoon in the Six Nations where people aren't talking about politics and just focusing on rugby, sorry, it's going to be about politics again.

42:56Alfie: God, I just don't even know. It's such a mess, isn't it? I don't even know where to begin with Wales at the moment, what the right way forward is, how this is supposed to resolve itself. I mean, it must be so difficult for Steve Tandy and those players and for the women's team when they get to the Six Nations to kind of prepare an elite sporting environment and same for the obviously the regions as well with all of this

43:18Elgan: going on it's one of these situations where everything is dragging every other thing down because if the national team do well it improves the mood it gets people into the national stadium which means more revenue for the WIU the trouble is that because that's not going so well there's nothing to boost up any of the aspects of the game at the moment which is the trouble you do get a little you know frisons of joy like cardiff winning at home to rassi 92 at the weekend we should mention that there was one win at the weekend for the four welsh teams i mean the scarlet's didn't do terribly against poe but but even so there's again we're just struggling to see real tangible progress and good news and yes it's uh this continued uncertainty about who's going to exist which clubs are going to carry on from next season the season after it's just making it so difficult to to enjoy rugby in wales at the moment i wonder why dan edwards i wonder what he has been promised because he was linked pretty heavily with leicester tigers aaron wainwright's gone to leicester leicester need a 10 i don't know why anyone would resign in wales given the uncertainty i i suppose it might be that because he is under that 25 cap threshold he very much would want to continue playing for wales but if if the ospreys cease to exist yeah then i assume he would be able to sign for whether that's another region in wales or a team in england and that would surely be extenuating circumstances where he would then be able to play for wales then he's signing at a time where he can only join a club who've got room in their budget he's lost his moment to go and sign a decent deal and that 25 cap rule surely has already has to be scrapped even even if it's officially on the on the law book or the regulation sheet whatever it is in in Cardiff that it's a nonsense now they can't be tying players into into a system where nobody knows what's going to happen from one week to the next if I'm sort of clutching at straws of positivity I suppose the fact that a young fly half does want to stay in Wales even though he doesn't know what's going to come it does show that there is still that that passion amongst young players to represent their country and try and drag the nation out of this malaise.

45:33Elgan: That is the pearl of positivity. I hope it pays off for him. I hope it pays off for him because I'm just surprised that it's happened because he's a promising young player. And if I was his agent, I'd imagine I'd have been pushing him to go anywhere else. Sort of knowing that the balance is going to shift so much that WRU will have to scrap that cap rule once one of the clubs folds, if Oswego's folds, they're going to have to scrap it because they can't, a bit like why they didn't come out and sign the R360 letter in barring Wales players who would have gone to R360 from playing Test Rugby because they're in such a weak negotiating position.

46:13So, no, more power to his elbow. I hope it, I really hope it works out for him and that maybe he can be one of the, as you say, one of the shining lights that helps drag things out of the pit

46:24Alfie: where it currently exists yeah 100 let's wait and see let's finish with newcastle red bulls recruitment i wanted to mention this alex just because it's things are starting to happen aren't they with newcastle you look at the recruitment they've done already hoskins satutu josh hodge franco molina rus tuima elliot miller mills raffi quirk we're hearing as well like newcastle are starting to make some moves aren't they this red bull supposed transformation yes the the movement has begun i i guess it's it's taken slightly longer for some of the names to come out than i thought it would pretty much just what red bull took over gregor townsend was brought in to run red bull rugby which is essentially a recruitment role uh or a strategic planning role heading up newcastle red bulls um and we knew that premiership spending on on players is is back on the rise again after the sort of post-Covid dip it's forecast to go up regardless of Newcastle now with Newcastle spending I think it's going to take it back up to approximately where it used to be around sort of the£80 million mark on players across the league and they're targeting some smart signings I think but Hoskins to 2-2 former All Black will come with an option of play for England if he gets picked for England which which will and he's an EQP player um which means they get a subsidy from the RFU a sort of a bonus payment from the RFU essentially because he's English qualified if England uh what I imagine what happens England will cap him um and then decide whether they really want him which will keep him out of Fiji's hands because he also qualifies for Fiji but if you look at those other names that you mentioned like Rafi Quirk has still has the potential to be a key England player at the next World Cup.

48:15Alfie: I fear for Rafi Quirk playing on a synthetic pitch every other week. I will say that. That is true. But he is wicked, I believe. But he's of that ability. Tuima, Ross Tuima, similar, like real, basically, they're all improvements on what they have. They're all kind of England A-level players. And they're the ones that we know of at the moment. Josh Hodges going back there, isn't he, from Exeter as well. again a sort of England A level player which this first round of recruitment may not be enough to get them to win the title necessarily or compete for the top four Steps in the right direction though isn't it?

48:49Alfie: It's a calibre of player that they haven't been signing for ages Yeah and if you can go to a player from Wales say who's just been made redundant who's got options and go well we've got Rafi Quirk coming we've got Hoskins Tutu coming we've got Russ Tuima coming these are all fringe international players as England A sort of level, as things stand, I think Rafi Kwork's better than that. Hoskins Tututu will discover if he's better than that. It's attractive. The movement has begun. The Red Bull sort of influence has started to take hold. You've got to give these players a reason to go. And the reason to go is you show a club that's moving forward, that's improving, that's investing in talent that still has a high ceiling.

49:36players like Ross Tuima and Rafi Quirk they're nowhere near as good as they could be which is exactly the kind of player that they need to be signing and I suppose the knock-on effect is you

49:47Alfie: hope it drags up the standard of the rest of the league and if you're Quinns or Gloucester at the moment who are having terrible seasons you're looking at it thinking we need to get this right or we're going to be right down the bottom whereas previous seasons you looked at Newcastle and you thought well yeah they're gonna they're gonna be right down there and on the topic of Quinns actually it gives me an opportunity to flag the other interview out and about that yourself and Will did last week, Alex, with Laurie Dalrymple at Quinn's and he kind of fronted up and spoke to you, which is worth people checking out.

50:12It's about, you know, everyone has got the same, not everyone's got the same budget, but everyone's got the same limit on what they can spend. Newcastle will come in having spent half of the salary cap. They're now in a position to increase their investment in the team. Now there's no, why does it matter if you finish 10th or 8th? Because there's no relegation, I get that. which actually links back to our conversation about Europe and if you had say the top five in the Prem or even the top six qualifying for Europe you would at least have a target like a jeopardy that a Gloucester and a Newcastle and a Quinns this season they need to try and break into that top section to get Champions Cup rugby and although that doesn't currently exist that's the sort of stepping stone that I think Newcastle are making they don't want to be sitting at the bottom there's no there's no sporting joy in it they can't sell out Kingston Park you know the kind of the the Red Bull excitement factor will only last so long they they want to attract a team that has has roots in its locality but also has some some promise and some potential and if you bring in some of these some of the names that they have brought in it's a step in the right direction and it will definitely have a knock-on effect it's about how smartly you spend your money it feels to me that these this money has been spent smartly so far in a way that

51:28Elgan: harlequins haven't spent smartly on the subject of roots in the locality do you think that they'll really focus on trying to bring back the likes of adam radwan who are so linked to the area obviously you know as we've spoken about before had to leave because the of how poorly the club was doing when they were still the falcons do you think that will be something that they will really look to? Well, I think they'd love to, but I think the reality is that Alan Radman is not going to go back to Newcastle while he's on a good thing at Leicester and competing at the top, you know, at the moment Leicester are fifth in the Prem.

52:05They're in the hunt for the playoffs. I don't see him going back to Newcastle unless Newcastle are in that same position. So the reality, and the same with Jamie Burmeyer, who's made the same move to Wellford Road, I think the reality is their money's better spent on what is already a profitable academy, but just harnessing the best local players. Because Newcastle have been what London Irish were back in the day. Anyone who's any good has about a season in the first team at Newcastle and then leaves. Josh Hodges won, Guy Pepper, but Bramire and Adam Radwan, they just weren't in a position where they felt they could commit for their own rugby futures.

52:48and Phil Brantingham at Saracens. I think Phil Brantingham at Saracens is quite a good... And Louis Johnson, really promising young Newcastle-born players who moved away from Falcons, as they were, and aren't really playing. They're the kind of players I can see them attracting. England under-20 fly-half, Louis Johnson, who's at Saracens, who's now behind Farrell, because Farrell's come back, and Fergus, but I can see them targeting, getting him back, getting Phil Brantingham back. Alex Clary, one of the strongest Geordiacs that you'll hear around Prem Rugby I can see them targeting that type of player for sure because those local routes are really important, you know those connections are really important when you're trying to, Newcastle are strategically really valuable for the English rugby ecosystem and if they just become a club that's imported fringe players from elsewhere then it loses its luster that academy has produced a lot of players who are elsewhere in the league and I think that's where they'll target their investment yeah well it's

53:51Alfie: certainly a more exciting time for Newcastle I know their crowds this season have reflected that as well and some of the recruitment is yeah starting to catch the eye we'll leave it there if you want to send us an email the email address as always is the ruck at the times.co.uk Elgin, Alex enjoy the Champions Cup over the weekend yeah thank you we will I'll be at

54:10Elgan: Franklin's Gardens on Sunday to see if Northampton can book a home knockout tie or if the Scarlets can achieve a famous victory for Welsh rugby and briefly get us thinking about something other than emails, but we'll see what happens.

54:22Alfie: Don't knock the emails, Elgin, although maybe that one ate whatever it was at p.m. on a Friday night isn't the sort of thing we want to be... I was trying to watch Castorby Barth and suddenly that turned up. Thank you very much for listening. Back with you next week. Send us an email. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

54:43Alfie: Before you go, we just want to shine a light on the great work Allianz is doing behind the scenes to support the game we all love. We talk a lot on the Ruck about Premiership stars and England internationals, but every one of those journeys starts somewhere. Usually on a freezing morning at a local club with volunteers, hand-me-down kit and a belief that rugby can genuinely change lives. Allianz gets how important those places are, which is why they're launching a special edition of the Allianz Future Fund just for Ruck listeners. They're offering grants of£500 to£1 ,000 to help local clubs become more inclusive, more sustainable and better set up for the next generation.

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