Nations Championship Round 3: Are Ireland still a top side? Plus, a new Springbok captain?

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1:11Hello, this is the Ruck, the journalist rugby podcast from the times and the Sunday times. The nation's championship for now, at least is finished for the summer. Will and Alex are on their way back from Argentina. They've been holding the fort on the pod over the last week or so. So back on a Monday, joining me, Alfie Reynolds, to look back on everything. Once again, we have Charlie Morgan. Hi, Charlie.

1:34Charlie Morgan: Morning, pal. Thanks for having me. Our pleasure as always. No need to say thanks. And also joining us from the Wiltshire Studios is Stuart Barnes. All right, Barnsie? Yep, Wiltshire Studios are up and ready. Good stuff. Always on hand. I know that when it comes to the Wiltshire Studios. Look, similar question, lads, to what I asked you, I think, at the start of last week's pod. We've got a very intriguing ending to the England game. We've got a big win for New Zealand. We've got the box putting Wales to the sword. Scotland getting the result against Fiji, plus plenty of other things. Charlie, maybe starting with you, what stood out on the third round of the Nations Championship, in your view?

2:10Charlie Morgan: Well, I think it was a round sort of bookended by particularly intriguing games. And I'm going to take the very start of it. the first half hour of New Zealand's win over Ireland, although the win itself, I guess, wasn't as comprehensive as it may be. It threatened to be. I just thought that opening salvo where New Zealand were moving the ball extremely well and I think just impressing the style that they're going to go forward with under Dave Rennie and maybe just picking out the Patrick Tupilotu try in a few phases before that, the work of Josh Lord. So his locking partner, the absolutely smoked Ty Byrne in a clear out.

2:48Charlie Morgan: And he was up a couple of phases later to be at first receiver and just play a really lovely tip on to send Tupolotu through. And I just think if we spoke a lot last week about how New Zealand are going to go about trying to topple South Africa in this four test series that they've got coming up, which is going to be fascinating. and I just think we saw it there and that's their sort of foundation that they're going to try and refine for that series and I just thought it was fascinating. Barnsley, what about you? What stood out over the weekend?

3:18Stuart Barnes: Well, I just wonder, here's the big question of world rugby. Have we seen the end of Sia Khalisi as Swingbox captain? A giant of the game, an all-time great, but all good things come to pass. has Razzi Erasmus found the man to take South Africa onto the next level in Paul de Villiers? We haven't seen Kaliti. What we have seen is his replacement, a young man come on and be as good as Ruben Kruger and Heinrich Brousseau were. Now, people of a certain age will remember that in the 1995 World Cup, Francois Pienaar got all the media applauded, but it was Kruger was the man who did the dirty work. And in de Villiers, the Stormer is someone who's got the ability to do the dirty work and the brilliant work.

4:11Stuart Barnes: He even looks like Kruger. And I'm wondering, is this the next stage in the South African transition?

4:19Charlie Morgan: Just to jump in on that, I can't remember whether I said this in one of the podcasts out in South Africa, so massive apologies if I did. But Paul de Villiers walked past us in the mix zone at Ellis Park. When you've been doing this a while, it's very rare that you're sort of surprised by or shocked by a player's size. Like they're sort of heft. Far more often you're sort of more shocked by how sort of diminutive they look compared to sort of their peers maybe. And Paul de Villiers is one of those players. And he's so smart. He's so quick. He's had a bit of a run. there was a run he had with the ball against Scotland where he looked so balanced on the ball like holding it in two hands I think that's a great shout out to Barnsley he's a really exciting player So which one was he, sorry Charlie was he someone that you were surprised by the heft or was surprisingly diminutive?

5:10Charlie Morgan: The opposite, looked a lot he was walking sort of, all the box players were walking through and he was walking through having done a sort of a series of interviews about his debut and just looked really sort of unassuming, small and I mean this with no disrespect at all I thought it was sort of a media sort of a media one of the media personnel of the box and it was it was really embarrassing actually looking back because he'd just been awesome but yeah he's just the way he got a turnover against Wales didn't he where it looked like it was a knock on and where the commentators watching it were going oh my goodness he's sort of emerged from this melee of bodies with the ball and how has he done that and you can sort of tell how he must be so brave to sort of put himself in those in the thick of all that.

5:54Charlie Morgan: But yeah, just looks so smart and so skillful as a player. What would have been really embarrassing is if you went up to him and said, oh, excuse me, can you go and get us Peter Steff or someone to speak to? Precisely, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't put it past me. Well, just when, yes, we all thought that South Africa needed some more back row options as well, didn't we? That they're able to find someone. It's an interesting shout, Barnsley. Let's wait and see.

6:19Stuart Barnes: The other thing, I was sort of mulling over at the end of a sort of a glut on Saturday. And I thought Peter Steftup-Toy has been captain in the box as well. It's almost as if Erasmus has seen this opportunity just to just slide through the next generation. And obviously, you know, there'll be this view that you can't drop Sia Khaleesi. But the great coaches, at some stage, everybody has to be dropped because you can't be the best forever. and that's the case there. And so I was thinking, blimey, Peter Steffi-Toy is still pouring on the brilliance, either as a second row or a back row. I'm thinking he now looks like he has been groomed to be captain, but what do you do with Sia Khaleesi?

7:08Stuart Barnes: And then I'm thinking, but is Sia Khaleesi as influential as a rugby player nowadays as Davilias? And no disrespect to the great man, But I would say that for some time now, we've been seeing less from Khaleesi. And in the last three weeks, a mountain of brilliance from the newcomer. It's fascinating. And I wonder, Erasmus is the sort of coach who is so good at just sliding this through to the point we don't even end up writing a column about they've got a new captain. It just happens. One minute he's there. The next he's not. And South Africa moves seamlessly on towards the third World Cup. It'll be really fascinating to see the team they name for that test series against the All Blacks.

7:59As we know, the Springboks just rotate constantly, basically in between tests. They went pretty much as strong as they could for England, have been rotating since then. So what do they do at captain? Who does Khaleesi play once they get to that first test against the All Blacks? Or maybe it's a longer term thing that once we get to the World Cup next year. Love it as a shout. really really interesting can I pick up as well with what you mentioned Charlie in terms of that All Blacks Island game the first game of the weekend I think we've been all quite excited by New Zealand over the last three weekends haven't we and Dave Rennie how he's come in the style of rugby that they're looking to play from an Ireland perspective Barnsley what does that result tell us about where Ireland are this was always going to be their biggest test of this three-game block

8:44Stuart Barnes: Yeah, well, to explain Ireland, let me just say a line about New Zealand. The word that they're using, the word that is coming out of their camp is optimistic rugby. They keep saying it. They keep saying we're trying to be optimistic. As Charlie said, they've succeeded. I think New Zealand, well, they have to succeed because if they don't play fast rugby, they can't beat the power of the spring box. And Dave Brunney knows that. It's not even an intellectual challenge. They've only got one way to beat their old enemy. So if they're optimistic in how they're playing, and they should be, Ireland, I would be just slightly pessimistic.

9:25Stuart Barnes: I felt Ireland struggled to hold on at times against Australia when they developed their game. And I thought the first half hour, we saw the reality of the gulf between Ireland and New Zealand. And Ireland, again, I frame things in context of the World Cup because that's how the big coaches and the big teams have to be thinking. Ireland are neither physically powerful enough to stand toe-to-toe all the way with South Africa. We saw that in the autumn. and I don't think they have the pace and thrill to their game to take them on on the outsides either. We saw that against New Zealand. They just look a very well-organised, a very well-coached team, but you think, what takes them to the next level?

10:18Stuart Barnes: I'm also a little bit disappointed. I'm a big Prendergast fan. He still has a lovely array of skills, but he hasn't really taken the responsibility of running the team on, there still seems to me a little bit of a gulf between the Sexton days and what has come since. And Ireland have to address that very fast. And at the moment, you know, I think in Northern Hemisphere rugby, which is a level down from New Zealand and South Africa, they're competitive. At the very highest level, I don't see Ireland at the moment anywhere near a challenge in the World Cup. I see them struggling with Scotland, to be honest.

11:03Charlie, is that way your mind kind of goes here? I think the interesting thing or a lot of the reaction I've seen off the back of Ireland's defeat to the All Blacks is the conclusion that Ireland aren't one of the top sides anymore. They're no mugs by any means. We saw that in the Six Nations, but they're not up there with France. They're not up there with the Springboks. They're not up there with the All Blacks. Is that fair?

11:24Charlie Morgan: Yeah, I think so. I think South Africa are out on their own. I think France and New Zealand are in their own bracket below that. And I think Islander would have then sort of below that, maybe on their own a little bit with that chasing pack, trying to sort of haul them back towards them, back in. But it does feel on the back of that All Blacks game that it can go either way for them. But we thought that was the case after the France game at the start of the Six Nations, when Andy Farrell did kind of summon a bit of a kind of a resurgence. I think maybe we need, certainly with Ireland and maybe a bit with England as well, we need to bear in mind the kind of the context of the Lions tour and this being the season after that and it being a very, very long, gruelling season.

12:14Charlie Morgan: But you're right that I feel like it's a huge autumn for Ireland coming up in the same way that it's a huge autumn for England as far as consolidating the positive bits of this season. And there were a few of them for Ireland. You know, they were absolutely dominant at Twickenham. We thought that Scotland would go over to Ireland and have a real chance of winning that game. And they threw a lot at Ireland without really coming close ultimately. So it feels like a huge autumn coming up for Ireland, as I say, in the same way as it does for England. The thing that still impresses me with Ireland is actually, I think the kind of grit and resilience still in that team, which we have seen this year.

12:54You mentioned the start of the Six Nations, Charlie, where I think a lot of us, I certainly was guilty of thinking, well, this is Ireland really on the decline now. And whilst they have obviously slipped off from their heights of 2022 and 2023, there's still something about this team. I mean, they should have probably lost to the Wallabies, but it was one of those games they were able to stay in and they had fights. So that's probably what I would give them credit for. I think, as Peter O 'Reilly said on the pod a couple of weeks ago, they are just not as good as they were kind of heading into the last World Cup.

13:24They're not going to go into 2027 being spoken about as one of the favourites. And I think you're right to circle that Scotland game, Barnsley, already for Ireland and Scotland. You're looking at that match at the World Cup and thinking that is going to define both of those sides' year, really, or certainly their World Cups.

13:44Stuart Barnes: Yeah, the difficult thing in analysing Ireland is one needs to contextualise somewhat. And they did bounce back very well from Paris in the Six Nations, but who did they beat? They beat four teams who were nowhere in the running order. Nowhere, nowhere. Not even a blip in the minds of those who wonder about who could win a World Cup. Before that, they got scrummaged to oblivion by South Africa who wanted to make a point. By the way, and they were very plucky and gutsy in that game. They then played a French team who put them away. So when they've played the big guns, they've been well and truly beaten.

14:27Stuart Barnes: You know, we now have France, South Africa and New Zealand. What happened in each of those games, they didn't get anywhere near them. They beat the other teams, the sort of middling ranking teams, those who we think are just below them, but to win a World Cup, Ireland, you know, they're in the wrong pool at the moment. They're in the pool of, they're the best of the mediocre teams, I think.

14:53Charlie Morgan: Great, great, great tidbit from Russ Petty as he often sort of conjures these. So after this last All Blacks defeat, Ireland have now lost six in a row against New Zealand, France and South Africa by at least 10 points. That's kind of sobering, isn't it? How those teams, that crept up on me a little bit, I have to say when I saw that, but it does suggest that, yeah, that those very top sides have pulled away from them and sort of made those scorelines pretty messy by the end.

15:22Stuart Barnes: I hadn't seen that statistic, but it's one of those things. Sometimes if all you do is watch rugby all your life, you just get a feeling, and I had this feeling that context is everything here and Ireland are just sliding backwards. and beating Scotland and beating England doesn't say, there you go, Andy Farrell has fixed it. It doesn't do it. It's a different world.

15:47Charlie Morgan: It feels like they're searching for, and they found it in that context that you're talking about, against the Six Nations, over the rest of the Six Nations, they found something different. And that was, to me, McCloskey, Balakoon. And maybe that's settling and making them more a part of their side going forward. But then you wonder if that is enough to kind of bridge the gap too.

16:12Stuart Barnes: 10 is a huge problem. Sorry, but 12 as well. 10 is a huge problem, but 10 is a huge problem, partly because 12 is a big problem. This is an English problem as well. Against New Zealand, we saw McCloskey, who was a giant at times in the step-down Six Nations from the Southern Hemisphere. against New Zealand, against Geordie Barrett, against the best. You just thought, hang on, he's struggling to hold on. And when he's struggling to hold on, at 10, Prendergast isn't coming through and the whole edifice isn't quite functioning. And it's, you know, what's good enough? We're quite arrogant in the Northern Hemisphere.

16:56Six Nations is the best tournament in the context of it being a party,

17:01Stuart Barnes: of it being great atmosphere. it is not the best in terms of the quality of the rugby. But we jump and see if Ireland do really well and they win a triple crown and just get edged out by France, we say, there you go, they've proved their critics wrong. But they haven't proved their critics wrong because it's another level of rugby. And that's why, you know, right now, the only team in the Northern Hemisphere who should be mentioned in the same breath is France, as Charlie has mentioned. They're the one team with the depth, with the talent coming through, with the quality already there, who you'd say, yeah, they are contenders.

17:42Well, plenty of questions then for Ireland. I want to come on to England and the chaos of their game against Argentina and the controversy in just a moment. Will and Alex spoke about that a lot on the pod that they did from Buenos Aires on Saturday. Saturday. Before that, I caught up with Mark Palmer, who was at Scotland's game against Fiji to round up Gregor Townsend's side's Summer Internationals. Well, Mark, great to have you back on to the Ruck. Been a busy summer, hasn't it? Spend a fair bit of time out following the Tartan army in America? Yeah, it seems almost like a different lifetime ago now, that one.

18:18Incredible, I think, that the tournament then only finished very, very recently. Yes, it was a fun experience apart from the football, but that That was probably quite predictable in itself. Well, you got to get back to the rugby over the weekend then, which was pretty decent. I think it's gone pretty well, hasn't it, from a Scotland point? Have you kind of sum up this summer, sum up the first block of Nations Championship games for Gregor Townsend and his men? I would agree with you. I think overall it's been a positive experience and continues that kind of overall kind of positive feel that we kind of feel should be attached to this season.

18:56despite some very obvious lows in the midst of it, that Argentina game that we've spoken about before in November and the start of the Six Nations in Rome. They've kind of pulled it around to give a feel of something that's heading in a very much upwards trajectory. The Nations Championship has been a big adjustment for everyone, but probably particularly for Scotland, who have used these summer windows under Gregor very much as a kind of developmental exercise. They've tended to go away, not to the most glamorous or biggest destinations, but they've done it as an exercise in building depth, whereas this time, clearly, there's a lot more competitive edge to it.

19:34They've had to go full tilt. It's been good, as we said, to go away to Argentina. A fantastic attacking performance in Cordoba against the Pumas. Slayed some demons from November and that dramatic collapse at Murrayfield. a really good kind of start to the tournament, full of intent. Then they go to Pretoria. And, you know, I think there's been some real sort of mixed feeling around that one because much like the game against the All Blacks last November, they've taken, you know, well, this time, the best side in the world, clearly, the distance in their own backyard, that altitude, and probably have a right to think they should have got more out of the game and certainly had the scoring opportunities to do so, didn't quite do it and they're kind of left thinking right again it's a case of so close but so far as well so Fiji game was a very odd affair given that it was you had it the week before in Liverpool but a Fiji home game so the bizarre sight of the Scotland team bus being led in by a Fijian choir not a pipe band all sorts of pre-match entertainment which I doubt we'll see it at Murrayfield again but it was great a really good kind of atmosphere and to actually be at Murrayfield in the sunshine was a very rare and warming experience as I doubt you would have ever experienced and I certainly haven't.

20:58And Fiji in that first half took a 10-point lead playing some fantastic stuff and managed to shut down Scotland's set-piece game. They defended the Scottish Mall superbly in that first half. Wheels came off a little bit for them in the second, a bit of indiscipline. And Scotland's kind of heavy artillery came on from the bench. That was the safety net that Gregor had allowed himself. And it was very much needed. And in the end, they won with a degree of comfort. If we highlight the middle game, Marks, I think that the Springbok game is, well, certainly the most challenging, obviously, this summer for Scotland.

21:33But they got a huge amount of credit, I think, for their performance, how they ran the Springboks close, some of the attacking rugby that they played in that game. What have been your reflections on that match against, admittedly, a very weakened South African side, but going away, short turnaround, big travel off the back of playing in Argentina? How significant kind of was that for this Scotland team, do you think? I think it was significant and a lot of them that we've spoken to since have talked about that. They feel a more tangible belief, a more credible belief that they can go on and take it to the very best sides in the world.

22:13By playing their own brand of rugby as well, that was also significant. They've not gone there and tried to lock up the game or just maul their way through that one. It was a really good attacking performance. and again though to play Mr Misery on the flip side it's kind of where we were before there's been some tremendous results this season England, France particularly that Argentinian away game but when it comes to that sort of trio of Ireland, South Africa New Zealand, Queerle who have never beaten ever, it's still that next little next very big chunk probably psychologically as much as anything and queerly there is no shame to be losing to sides of that calibre, particularly in the manner that they did run them so close.

23:00But it remains that elusive next step really for this group at this moment. Well, that was going to be my next question then. Is this a Scotland team that are now more capable of beating the best teams in the world? Well, as we've said all along, we like to think it is. We think that the ingredients are there and there's been certainly a shift in mentality since that November disaster against the Pumas. They seem more capable of managing shifts in momentum within games and not letting games just completely unravel in front of them. But I suppose, again, the proof will have to be in the pudding.

23:34Until there's time to put away one of those sides, then we will have to have those doubts. But, yeah, it's clear that the game is absolutely, and the game and the players are absolutely good enough to take these teams all the way. these absolute elite sides so then that next step is you know actually going and knocking one of them off. And how much of that is a combination between I think as you mentioned previously backing their game plan playing their way this attacking rugby that we know Scotland love to play and can do so well and how much of it is an improvement in the front five or the pack in particular and physically being able to take it to the top teams better now?

24:12I think there's definitely an element of that that balance has come to the fore I mean they were excellent physically against France as well, although that was a 90-point game in the Six Nations. They really took it to the French pack in a way that they've not been able to previously, and many Scottish sides before them for that fact. And again, two very big physical tests against Argentina and South Africa back-to-back with those kind of logistical challenges that you mentioned. They were able to go genuinely toe-to-toe with two ferociously physical outfits. So there has to be confidence taken from that.

24:50The players in that, particularly as you said, the type five back row as well, centres who are now physically capable of taking on the very best. So yeah, I think there's a real confidence in that game plan, but it's now underpinned by something a bit more solid, albeit actually their defensive stats this year have not been brilliant in terms of points conceded. but there seems to be a it feels like there's a greater solidity to the structure if not actually sometimes the actual outcome of that Yeah and I actually I wonder whether a lot of teams defensive stats wouldn't be that great this year it feels like the attacking rugby is probably being rewarded a bit more by the referees I don't know just a couple more for you we've often looked I think or people are getting accustomed to the nation's championship but I look at Scotland Mark who are a real obvious example of why it is a good thing You've referenced it already, but often Scotland would be left out, wouldn't they, of the traditional summer tours and would do the more developmental tours.

25:48They've actually been to Fiji to their credit. They've had to do the USA and they might get a game here or there against Argentina. Has this been a great summer, though, for Scotland from the point of view of they have been able to play the strongest here? They've been able to go to South Africa. If it was another iteration, they would be able to go to New Zealand and Australia, that they're actually getting those fixtures in a summer. I think it is and you know Gregor has been a very big proponent of those kind of more development mental tours but both he and certainly the players have been full of praise for the opportunity to go and play some of these big dogs in their own backyard it's kind of what we've needed as you said we've been on the outside of that of that kind of of that circuit for you know 20 years almost the first time Scotland had played South Africans well the last time they played a series in South Africa was 2006 so New Zealand it's the start of the century so you know I think it is really beneficial that they're having to go full tilt, you know it brings into some complications certainly with the amount of lines that they had last summer so these guys are still going 12 months later but again you know it then has also brought some opportunities for other guys to put up their hands so yeah I think overall that you know whatever the general feel is on the Nations Championship it's certainly been positively received here And once we get to November, what's the aim now for Scotland?

27:10They've won two of three. They're in a good spot. What's the aim, do you think, for the next three matches? Well, as you say, it's second in the Northern Hemisphere table or conference or whatever we're meant to call it, with New Zealand, Australia and Japan to come to Murrayfield. So having talked about that lack of playing New Zealand regularly over the last 20 years, they could play them twice in a month if they finish up in second there. So, you know, you'd like to think that the recent record against the Wallabies has been excellent. You'd like to think they could dock them off. Likewise, Japan.

27:43And again, could they finally slay that All Black demon? Who knows? But I think the aim is very clear. Stay in that kind of second, third kind of spot, I think would be very good in terms of teeing up then another really kind of challenging but exciting game in the final round. Yeah, All Black's looking pretty good under Dave Rennie as well. So we'll see what they look like. We know them inside, him and Mike Blair, so no problem. Yeah, exactly. No questions there whatsoever. Mark, great to have you back on the pod. Let's speak to you soon, mate. Thanks very much, Alfred.

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28:56So always a pleasure to have Mark back on the pod chatting all things Scotland. Decent win for them over Fiji. Been a good summer for them. But, Barnsley, before we get on to England, you think there is a bit of a bridge here between how Scotland approached the game against Fiji and how England did last week?

29:14Stuart Barnes: I think it was the most interesting thing that happened at the weekend. England decided they had to beat Fiji and they went full ball with their full team and they played there. They took them on at the scrums and the set piece and gave them a hammer. in Scotland, changed their team almost completely, didn't change the way they played, didn't try and scrummage and line out Fiji off the park, tried to play an expansive brand of rugby, got themselves in a right pickle for the first half, taught their way out of it. Here's the question, did England learn more smashing Fiji with a full team, playing traditional England ways, or did Scotland learn more by fielding their second team and trying other things.

29:56But is that because Scotland are in a position where, like Scotland were selecting from a position of strength in that they had their greatest ever Six Nations result against France. They got a huge amount of credit, albeit in defeat to the Springboks. Like Scotland are in a good place, whereas England were under pressure. Steve Borthwick was under pressure and so probably didn't feel he could take risks in that way.

30:19Stuart Barnes: Well, if he's not able to take risks because he feels under pressure personally, then one has to say England are just losing time in the race for the World Cup. Charlie, if you'd answer this, who believes that had England mixed and matched their squad, they would have lost to Fiji had they mixed their driving line-out game, a bit of scrummaging, but also tried things, played a few new players? were England under so much pressure are England so uncertain of their game that they had to do what they did against what in the end was an overwhelmed Fiji team and England played quite well don't get me wrong but was that 80 minutes when five or six players we could have had a look at to find out not just if they're good enough but if they're not good enough and that's part of selection finding out those who aren't of test match quality I've got a totally

31:15Charlie Morgan: alternative viewpoint on this, which is that I just thought that Scotland's performance against Fiji was just not as smart as England's. And I thought they actually played in a way that gave oxygen to Fiji and therefore let Fiji become a factor in the game, whereas England didn't. And on the team selection point, I think I don't disagree that England would have been more adventurous and blooded more players had they not been on a run of five defeats. However, I think they also, they gave three debuts in that game, albeit none of them from the start. I think where they are, as far as the, so this morning, to let you into this is quite sad, but this is how I spent the sort of half hour before recording.

32:02Charlie Morgan: I just wrote down the sort of the cap profile of this England squad and they still have so many players between Oli Chesham, who's now got 38 and someone like Henry Pollock's got 13, Seb Atkinson, seven. And those, so a lot of players around the 20 cap weight that you've got to get games into and got to get various test matches into before, before the world cup. So a lot of that, I thought I felt like a lot of that, and maybe, maybe some of it was due to needing a win and Steve Borthwick being under pressure that week comes, comes into that certainly. but I think also what is at play is having to give players like George Martin, mid-20s, Alex Coles, mid-20s, Jack Van Portfliet, mid-20s, Tommy Freeman's only got 30 caps now, Manny Fabio Boso, even fewer than that.

32:51Charlie Morgan: They've got to play those players and I think a big chunk of that, Finn Smith, another one, mid-20s caps, they've got to play those players and keep them together and I think for the Fiji game, that came under that and I also do think that I was watching, I watched a lot of the first hour of Scotland-Fiji and thought, that's a way to play if you want to make Fiji, who are going to be hurt and are going to want to improve, but that's a way, Scotland played in a way that gave them oxygen and made them a factor in the game, whereas England didn't. And I didn't mind that.

33:23Stuart Barnes: No, but conversely, I didn't mind the fact that Scotland actually were naive, played themselves into trouble and then had to find their way out. And Townsend will go, I'm not so certain about him, him and him. or he came on and sorted it. There's no definitive, as there is no definitive in sport, is there? There's no hard fact. But it was really interesting, I thought, what Scotland did there. Let's bring it on to England-Argentina, which we'll maybe have to get on to the positives for England in a moment. I think that first half was their best half of 2026, a low bar. I know I can hear everyone listening saying, but we've got to start at the end of this game.

34:05TMO decision, Angus Gardner as the referee looking like he wanted to award the try for Argentina, which would have given them a conversion from the touchline, which meant it could have ended in a draw. The TMO, adamant that that wasn't the case and it ends up ending the game. Argentina are furious. England get the win. I suppose, first of all, did they get it right? Did the officials get the correct decision in the end, even though the process took absolutely ages?

34:30Stuart Barnes: The TMO, I wrote about this, I think Sunday, I was going to write about England's two wingers and we had quite a tight deadline because it's a late game. And then we had this incident and that just engulfed everything. It was bigger than the match in a way. The TMO ended up getting it right. He refused to buckle to Angus Gardner's call to say that, yes, he was grounded. And we all know that if a TMO stands his ground there, you've got a sort of a degree of anarchy in the officiatium world. And that's where we ended up, because Gardner was... Well, I think he was wrong, by the way. Other people don't.

35:17Stuart Barnes: But Gardner thought one thing. I was adamant, along with a lot of people, that the ball had touched the touchline in goal and wasn't a try, and he refused to move. And, I mean, the bottom line is Gardner should have said, well, thanks for giving that, but I'm so certain, as I've told you, I'm going to give a try. But this system now between referees and TMOs is creaking all over the place. In earlier parts of the afternoon, I kept seeing referees not making the effort to get around the right side from close range to make the call because they wait for the TMO. And then we get the Gardner when Gardner suddenly says, I was there, I saw it, I know.

36:01Stuart Barnes: On-field decision is a try. And suddenly we've got, as I say, the anarchy of the TMO saying, well, you're wrong. I find this really funny. I was trying to explain this to you on WhatsApp, Charlie, over the weekend in that I think we got the correct decision, but I think the process that it took to get there I'm not fully comfortable with which is basically the TMO reffing and deciding the game and if Angus Gardner, almost even if he's wrong but if he is adamant as the referee that he wants to award that then do we not want games officiated on the field by the referee? Does that make sense? But I feel like so many people are going to listen to this and think the TMO stepped in, it's the reason you have the technology they got the decision right, like what are you talking about?

36:47Otherwise, the game ends controversially. The referee makes the wrong decision. But I suppose it may be, if I kind of take it away from just this incident, I think I'm along similar lines with you, Barnsley, of frustration of the TMO's influence on the game and this feeling that the TMO is ultimately refereeing the game. Charlie, what do you reckon?

37:08Charlie Morgan: Yeah, I actually think that it should have probably been a penalty try for the Calori high tackle on Delgy, which would have made it an automatic draw. I think once the TMO had made his feelings clear about Delghi being in touch, and I think there was a point where Angus Gardner was looking at a replay that couldn't be conclusive and saying, yeah, look, I've made that decision, so I'm going to have to stick with it because there are no other replays. And the TMO was sort of thinking, well, what's my assessment going to be if the ref hasn't actually seen the replay that shows him exactly what's happened.

37:48Charlie Morgan: Having said that, I thought England got very little from the officials throughout the game. The penalty count was 15-6 against them. And I thought that a tone was kind of set from Tommy Freeman's try where it just baffled me that Oli Chesham was the guy to be penalised for sort of running in and looking like he was defusing a situation in which Freeman had been punched twice. From the moment that happened, I thought this is going to be one of those games where England are almost going to have to take the officials out of this. And it's going to be a real test of their resilience, their togetherness, their focus, because you can really lose focus at that point.

38:32Charlie Morgan: There are going to have to be serious, serious conversations, and there will be, I'm sure, about their discipline and how they're managing to do that. because some of it is individual decisions, but some of it is just how they're absorbing so much pressure in this. We keep talking about, well, I keep talking about this context at the minute where teams are being rewarded more for being in possession. And England are still spending too much time defending and they're getting sort of caught up in this where it's not just they're spending too much time in their own 22. So they're not just conceding tries, they're conceding penalty, penalty, penalty, yellow card, yellow card, then a try.

39:09Charlie Morgan: So they're then having to kick off and defend again with 13. It felt grimly familiar. And I agree with you, Alfie, that that first half was just, it just oozed purpose from the very first scrum that they had. Barnsley, I think you'll recognise this as well. They had a scrum because Argentina went short with the restart trying to catch out Jamie George and put Dalgier against Jamie George. England had a scrum behind there, just in front of their own 22. how often do you see a Borthwick side hit it up in midfield, go to the air they went to Tommy Freeman they started a trend of getting Freeman and Faiu Oboso on the ball more and more and more that has to be the World Cup team that they are, getting those players as many touches as possible and that's what we hear is Lee Blackett sort of calling card as an attack coach, get your best carriers on the ball but that was almost undone by what became this kind of just spiral and it actually took Henry Pollock off the bench to

40:07Stuart Barnes: kind of pull them out of that I thought in my little notebook first scrum of the game first minute England were 30 meters from their own try line they a little sort of pull back backdoor move to get them into wide space got them moving early the first line out I think Finn Smith gives an inside ball to Faye Wobosu straight over the game line I totally agree they got their wingers into it and that is the template especially if you've got one wing who is technically very adroit uh aerially and picks great lines and on the other wing you've got someone who has that priceless ability to do the unexpected to play the game as he sees it he's a very bright guy and he plays a bright guy but he plays an individual game and he reminds me of what James Lowe gave Ireland for a long time he gave them a joker and I mean this in a positive sense a joker who was a wild card and in an era of of statistical analysis you need somebody who won't crop up where anyone expects you to and Faye Woboso throughout that game did that and and it was fitting that when the heat came on and England had to get themselves back in this game it was his ability to see the space and to almost force Jack Van Portfleet into a really good decision and score the try.

41:39Stuart Barnes: And so I was extremely encouraged in some ways. And overall, I wouldn't be critical of England. I thought that the whole aura of the game became something edgy and almost a bit nasty. I'm not going to get all anti-Argentinian. I don't want any of that. but it became a difficult game and what Charlie said about the referee the officiating there's a classic case sometimes you get that atmosphere and referees though they may not know so themselves become part of the package and I felt there was a degree of that and you know was it a penalty try? Yes but I don't worry about that decision online everyone's obsessing about it you know referees and touch judges have got to make decisions and people do get wrong decisions what we what we've got to do is make sure our process is as good as it can be and it wasn't at the end but for England it's engulfed everything but I thought it was a decent win I think the question that I'd imagine a lot of fans or England fans are probably asking at the moment is why we're seeing this from England just in pockets like they had the whole of the six Nations where they were dreadful and then they pitch up in Paris.

42:58I know they lose, but they played a far better game. And likewise here, it felt like it took until that first half against Argentina that you're seeing an England team truly try and attack with purpose and move the ball and get their best ball carriers on the ball as often as possible. In terms of the discipline, Steve Borthwick has named us all the negativity committee, but it's impossible not to focus on England's discipline problems. Firstly, why is it an issue that they don't seem to be able to fix? And then secondly, how can they go about fixing that? It's cropping up time and time again.

43:35Stuart Barnes: Well, first of all, the France game, I'm afraid, Alfie, you have to take out of the equation. England were out of the Six Nations. They'd made a mess of it and they were free to play. And believe me, if you're playing without pressure and you're playing with pressure, you're playing a different sport. and England weren't under pressure and that's why they were able to give France a game. As for the disciplinary issue, that comes from where you play the game and how you put yourself under pressure. Charlie made the point, England spend a lot of time in their 22 and not able to get out. If you kick out, teams are coming back at them.

44:11Stuart Barnes: And from the tri-line to the five-metre line, that should now be renamed the yellow zone because that's where the vast... I'm not a statistician, but I watch all these games and the vast majority of yellow cards, it feels to me, are coming from between the tri-line and the five-metre line. And you've got a free play to keep going until you score. And if you don't score, the referee comes back and he just airily waves his arm and says, offside. Am I wrong, Charlie? No.

44:43Charlie Morgan: So again, to tie this back to the New Zealand-Ireland game, I wondered whether that will be whether sort of world rugby and officials will review that and how the breakdown was officiated in that game by Nick Berry where it just felt like Jacqueline was almost off the table and I think we'll come back a little bit I think it will come back a little bit where the breakdown contest is a little bit more important again at the World Cup and I think England are going to have to find ways of relieving pressure and not to allow themselves to absorb so much pressure and defend for as long periods. And I think a big part of that is breakdown contests.

45:23Charlie Morgan: I think Maratoji returning is a big part of that. I think that potentially Pollock starting is going to help them with that as well. And I think that is going to have to be a sort of big takeaway from this campaign for them. How do they just not defend for as long? It was almost as if against Argentina, if they'd conceded earlier in defensive sets, they would have been in less trouble because they wouldn't have sort of put themselves in these, as Barnsley says, these yellow card situations. So that's certainly something to ponder ahead of the autumn, because as I said at the top, this really has reminded me of 2022 and the end game of Eddie Jones.

46:06Charlie Morgan: and it's continuing in that form where they lost the first game of the summer in that Eddie Jones summer. All of them were against Australia but they came back and won the next two. Steve Borthwick's done the same, lost the first one, won the next two. Where it ran away from Eddie Jones was he didn't continue to have the England supporters on side for this autumn campaign coming up because it sort of got messy, got on the wrong side of a couple of results. England have to play with the same purpose as they did in the first half against Argentina, which was reminiscent of Paris, in fairness, in a more high stakes game.

46:43Charlie Morgan: They have to make sure that that translates to November. On that point, Charlie, Sam emailed theruckatthetimes.co.uk and said, when it comes to pro sport, I want nothing more than England to win the Rugby World Cup. I love this team with all my heart. And yet for the first time in my life, I found myself rooting for the opposition in the last two games. I think it's very clear that coaching change is needed and so I'm hoping for the results that will bring that to reality. Sadly, I think Steve is safe now after the last two results, but he absolutely should not be. Wales and Fiji were the worst versions of themselves I've ever seen.

47:16Argentina were abysmal and as soon as they got organised, they steamrolled our defence. All other games have been embarrassing losses barring France. Not under Ashton or Johnson or Lancaster or Jones were we ever this bad. Nowhere near the top, not even a threat to teams like Scotland and Ireland. I've been passionate my whole life. I'm now developing a depressing apathy. I think the reception and attitude towards Steve Borthwick, Charlie and Barnsley when we do get to November is going to be quite interesting. It doesn't seem like there's going to be any change or any movement from the RFU for the time being off the back of this summer.

47:51No, I do think there's a bit of...

47:56Charlie Morgan: That is taking 2026 results. So you're sacking off the autumn, which was also part of this summer, also part of this season. I think that's slightly unfair. I think divorcing it from the context, again, as I say, of a season after a Lions tour is pretty unfair. You've totally divorced it from the context of being on this 12-test winning run, notwithstanding how fortunate some of those wins were or whatever. But I don't know. I think he's certainly, certainly done enough to go into the autumn with a squad that will have more players available, more experience available, will be bolstered in positions like the two propping positions.

48:48Charlie Morgan: Yeah, I don't know. I just think that was a better than decent win, as Barnsley described it. and I think there are elements of that if you can bring it through while improving the discipline as we all sort of acknowledge has to improve that can make England look towards the World Cup with optimism and be at least sort of on the edge of that top three and then in a World Cup it's not necessarily the best side that wins the World Cup it's somebody that's got a punching chance within within the top four that does.

49:28Stuart Barnes: On that, I'd say, I think England had a chance to make a decision at the top and I think the decision should have been made before the France game. I think they should have moved heaven and earth to try and get Michael Checker in a 12-month short-term contract to take England through the World Cup. They didn't. And once they didn't, you can't then every game say, well, they've got to do this, they've got to do this. They are now short on time and, you know, the Argentina victory and enough of the first half performance says, all right, you know, for better or worse, this is where we are now. Now we've got the supporters might as well get behind him.

50:12Stuart Barnes: There is this degree of his persona isn't endearing to fans, but that's got nothing to do with anything. he's got to make sure he's got his changing room he's got to make sure that his management are all on the same wavelength and if he can do that he can take England as far as England can go now like I say I think they should have gone checker I think there are too many issues there but now England are in this position and they've just got to the cards are out now the cards are out There's no blind hands to play and it's up to Borthwick and I think the RFU have to now say you're free to play.

51:00Stuart Barnes: You're not under pressure. And we'll see how they get on in November, which will be here before we know it. Round us off. We haven't mentioned Wales. 43-0 against the box, but could have been worse. And let's be honest, that's not the fixture that we're particularly judging Wales on at the moment.

51:16Charlie Morgan: No, kind of depressingly so. So that's a 40-point loss where the box will be pretty disappointed with a lot of aspects in really tricky conditions to handle in Durban. Yeah, that's sobering for Wales. Their fight is now sort of really further back in those World Cup rankings and kind of developing a template that they can stick in games and trouble sides. and to be honest, they look way off troubling elite sides. But I think, as you say, Barnsley, with the England situation, the same is true of Wales, is that they've got to get through to the World Cup, at least with where they're at as far as coaching staff and just kind of figure out how to get the best.

52:04Charlie Morgan: They do have some special players within that squad, but how do you maximise them? It's going to be difficult.

52:11Stuart Barnes: And the other thing about Wales, You can talk about the World Cup. They're not going to win it. They're not going to be major players. And it's a hard thing. But if Wales is going to get back to where it once was in its mighty days of the past, it's not about what are they going to do in the next eight, ten matches. It's about how are they going to restructure? How are they going to rebuild Wales as a rugby nation from bottom up? And at the moment, you know, I live 10 miles east of the Severn Bridge, and it's almost as if in rugby terms, there's this ongoing simmering civil war happening. And until Wales can work out what they need to do there, then they're going to find it very hard.

52:59Stuart Barnes: When the game went professional, Wales suffered because it didn't have the number of players, but it had the brilliant players. England and Ireland were able to develop their playing base and Wales have struggled and with that struggle has come internecine issues and it's really sad but like I say, we should be talking about Wales in what year is it now? 2026, we should be talking about the 2036 plan a little bit like Japan with their 100-year plan to win a World Cup because Wales aren't going to be winning six nations in two years and they're not going to be making the last four of World Cups.

53:40It's very tough, but that's the reality.

53:42Stuart Barnes: And the discussion about Wales isn't really what we're seeing when they play the spring box away. It's what's happening in Baysleg School and all the schools and all the development areas of the game. Yeah, it's a long-term plan for sure. Charlie Barnsey, really appreciate it. Enjoyed the last few weeks trying to round up the Nations Championship on Monday. In terms of the pod, we will be back with you in the not-too-distant future, certainly around the greatest rivalry. You can expect some stuff around that. But the season, I guess, has technically come to an end now, Charlie? Is this the end of the season?

54:18I mean, it's kind of like a season that never ends, isn't it? But we have just about come to an end. Northern Hemisphere, I think.

54:23Stuart Barnes: You've got to say, with the Northern Hemisphere season. Yeah, just about. Just about. I think I went straight from Lions Tour into the Women's World Cup, so I think this almost feels like the end of... It's been two seasons back to back, really, but it's been good fun. So we will leave it there. Thank you to all of you that have been listening over the last season, two seasons. It all feels like it's blurred into one a little bit. If you do want to send us an email, the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk and we'll be back with you through The Greatest Rivalry. Could AI help you do more of what you love?

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