Nations Championship starts with a bang. Is captain Pollock the answer for England?

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0:58Stuart Barnes: Still waiting in line?

1:17Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. Back with you on a Monday morning. My name's Alfie Reynolds, Will Kelleher, Alex Lowe, Charlie Morgan are all on their way back from South Africa. They've been holding the fort over the last week or so. So to help me look back on all the rest of the action, and we'll get on to England as well, don't worry about that, we've got from the Wiltshire Studios back on the ruck, Stuart Barnes. How are you doing, Barnsie?

1:43Stuart Barnes: Very well, thank you. It survived a very long and arduous Saturday. Yeah, very long. Back to back to back to back rugby and more of it coming up this weekend as well. And also with us, a man who has been juggling his time between Nations Championship action and Wimbledon, Elgin Olderman, all right, Elgin?

2:00Elgan Alderman: Yes, well, we've just had the weekend that, I mean, it feels like always the busiest sporting weekend of the year, one of these July ones where we had British Grand Prix. I was at Wimbledon for two days. You had back-to-back rugby. You had a cricket World Cup T20 final at Lourdes as well. Yeah, an astonishing sporting day and difficult to keep tabs on it all, but tried my best with sort of double hatting between rugby and tennis on Saturday. The one that always springs to mind for me was, was it when the England men won the 50 over World Cup? We also had an all-time classic Wimbledon final. I think there was something else going on that weekend as well.

2:35Elgan Alderman: Yeah, I can't remember if that year was also the British Grand Prix, but they always fall around the same time, don't they? Yeah, that 2019 World Cup final, it was Federer-Djokovic, I think, wasn't it, in the Wimbledon final as well, and they finished about an hour apart or something or other. And yeah, difficult to keep tabs on it all. In the old days, I'm sure, Barnsley, you remember when there wouldn't have been any rugby or football in July, but we've got everything going on at once in this day and age.

2:59Stuart Barnes: I know, bizarre rugby. That's the thing. The rugby has joined the party really, hasn't it? Coming quite late for it. Yeah, and this morning as well, well, I braved the 1am wake up for the football as well. So we're kind of competing at the moment, aren't we? I suppose that's one of the things. Rugby is having to compete at the moment with an awful lot of other sport going on. And it's always going to be difficult, but it couldn't have done much of a better job with a lot of the matches we got on the weekend. Peter O 'Reilly is our man down in Australia. He was there for the Ireland game. So I spoke to him on Saturday after the match.

3:32We'll be hearing that fairly shortly on the pod. But maybe if we start off more generally here. Barnsley, there's a lot of talk before the Nations Championship started. You know, it's the first time we've seen it. Would it be better off to have kept it as the usual summer tours? Are they better in terms of creating a narrative and something people bought into? I know it's only one round of fixtures, but what did the quality of the games we saw do for you and your view of the nation's championship, your enjoyment of it, your belief in it potentially being a good thing? What do you make of it?

4:04Stuart Barnes: I don't think the quality of the game has any bearing on whether it was a one-off game, the first of two test matches or a new championship. They were entertaining games, no doubt at all, but I think they would have been entertaining games had France taken that same team to New Zealand, had Ireland taken that same team to Australia. Good rugby, but it's not an endorsement and it's not an indictment of the nation's championship. It's early days. We'll find out about that, really. I fear when we get to the last weekend and this idea of three days of rugby at Twickenham as if people are going to want to watch the sixth-best northern versus the sixth-best southern so-and-so.

4:53Stuart Barnes: The final might, if the final has the quality that we've seen to some extent in the first round, that could be an event. But I think they're pushing an awful lot into hoping this last weekend of November works. But, you know, nothing wrong with the start. The main thing is the quality of the rugby and overall it was good. Yeah, I feel like the jury is still going to be out on the Nations Championship as a whole. I thought the games were brilliant. I think once it gets to November, it could be actually quite good. but does it almost take too long to get going by the time we get there? We'll wait and see, but I thought the weekend was awesome.

5:28And on that note, Elgin, I mean, take your pick. Result of the weekend for you. We saw two absolute cracking games early on with the All Blacks, an Ireland winning, notable victory for Japan. Obviously, the Springboks doing what they did to England. A big win for Scotland late on as well and a really big win for Wales. So out of all of that, what would you pick out as the result of the weekend?

5:48Elgan Alderman: Yeah, I think all six of them had something for everyone, And even the most one-sided game, which was Ellis Park, at least had England offering a bit of fight to getting back into the game at halftime, even though it ended up being the most one-sided contest. I think Wales' win is huge for Wales, who had their second in a row. The New Zealand, France and Australia-Ireland games were the best, you know, even tests that could have gone either way until later on. I think that Japan-Italy result is really notable. I know it sounds a bit like the hipster's response to go straight to a Japan-Italy game, But based off what's been going on the last seven years for Japan, I think that was a really good result to have on that first morning of the championship for Japan to have won that one.

6:31Elgan Alderman: I think the best game was probably Australia Island from what I saw. I was covering the New Zealand and France one live, but I think Australia Island really was a good humdinger in front of a huge crowd in Sydney as well. So if I were looking for the best contest of that opening day, I'd go for that one in Sydney.

6:46Stuart Barnes: Do you know what, Alfie? Sometimes I think when you're a journalist and you're working on a game, you don't see the breadth always. And this is not a criticism, Elgin, but I know what you're saying. But I was watching neutrally and I thought New Zealand-France was the pick of the weekend because I thought Dave Rennie is always under pressure if you're the new all-black coach or any all-black coach. and it was fascinating to see they talked about playing with optimism and they talked about playing a different brand. They played an old New Zealand style and that's what you're going to have to do to beat South Africa.

7:27And what France did, they came unloaded of their Toulouse team

7:32Stuart Barnes: and they made it one hell of a game. I thought that was a match where if all the French players now, instead of going to Australia to join the squad, were going to Wellington or Auckland for the second test. That's where I'd be saying, to hell with the Nations Championship. I can't wait for the second test of New Zealand versus France. Is it one of those funny results in a way, isn't it, that both teams would be quite happy? For the All Blacks, they played some great stuff. I think they showed a lot of different intent that we maybe didn't see under Scott Robertson. So a great start for Dave Rennie's tenure to begin.

8:07But then, as you just said, from a French point of view, you look at it and you go, So, blindly, we could have, we should have, we played, maybe won the game. We played really, really well and we were missing a whole host of our frontline players. So a match which almost both teams have something to really take out of it.

8:21Stuart Barnes: Yeah, Algon, as our French expert, will know just how significant the foundations of Toulouse are in French rugby. And you can't underestimate that. And France will think we could have beaten them. But New Zealand also, you cannot underestimate the difficulty of that job, coaching the All Blacks. When you hear about Steve Borthwick talks about the burden of a white jersey, forget it. That's rubbish. The only the biggest burden of them all is the black one. There's been an expectation of 100 years for New Zealand to win because they usually do win. And Runny was under pressure and they came through.

8:58Stuart Barnes: And, you know, what was fascinating was Scott Robertson almost when he became an international coach, he followed trends. He accepted you had to play the power game, the possession game, the territory game. And that wasn't the New Zealand way. And when you look at South Africa's performance against England and South Africa for the best part of this calendar year, you think New Zealand have no chance of getting drawing level with their old enemy unless they do something different. It's almost like judo. You've got to use your old enemy's power against you. and New Zealand are trying to do something different because they know they cannot go there and slug it out toe-to-toe against the box.

9:40Stuart Barnes: So I think Rennie is being very smart, but they could have lost that game because they took risks and I think all credit to him and to France for the way they played.

9:50Elgan Alderman: What struck me most when I was watching that early on Saturday morning was the speed of the attack, especially from New Zealand with Cam Roigard, who's really cementing himself as one of the top scrum halves in the game these days. is that the speed of which he's in attacked was quite something. And, you know, the handling wasn't as accurate. We still judge the All Blacks by the team we saw 10, 15 years ago, which just seemed incapable of making errors. And, like, they would just inevitably win every game, every time they took to the field. Obviously, in recent years, it hasn't been quite as dominant, quite as successful.

10:22Elgan Alderman: So the handling let them down at times. I mean, some of the French short pass handling, in particular that try for Antoine Astor in the second half, It was just four or five short little brilliant passes the way they offloaded. That was great to see as well. It was that speed of attack that I saw from the All Blacks that struck me most based off what we've seen in the last year, which has been slightly more lethargic and inaccurate compared to the great All Blacks teams. What do you both think about the style then, which you've touched upon there? It struck me, certainly in the New Zealand-France game and the Australia-Ireland game, that there was a real intent to move the ball, a desire to try and stretch the pitch.

11:02And it felt like quite a different style to what we've maybe seen in international rugby, certainly at the back end of last year, probably in the Six Nations as well. And I know it's a small sample size, right? So perhaps it's too early to tell, but do you think it's possible? It felt to me like we saw less kicking, basically, over the weekend, generally, probably epitomized in those two games. Is international rugby, is it more important now, do you think, for teams to try and back their skills and their skill set and put it through the hands and find space than perhaps it has been over the last few years?

11:34Stuart Barnes: It depends what your objectives are. Andy Farrell, after the game, said everyone's got one eye on next year. One eye is on the next Test match, one eye is on the World Cup. And if you're serious about taking the Springboks and their power game on, then you have to evolve in another way. The game has been dominated by Springbok philosophy and you can't beat them or you can beat them but not when it matters that's the lesson there and I thought New Zealand I agree with Elgin there were some errors but if you look at the running lines of Quinn Topaya brilliant stuff they were it was pulling Penna out of position causing all sorts of problem and you could see what New Zealand were trying to do and in Josh Cannon the sort of 10 foot second row in Sydney for Australia he was pulling back passes that took me back to the early days of Brodie Retallick when no one had seen a six foot seven second row doing that and what that was doing was asking real questions of the rush defence nearby and again to beat South Africa you've got to find a way to take out Creel and Dierlande so I thought that we saw in Rennie and Joe Schmidt coaches who were saying okay we want to win these games but it is imperative that we evolve in a way otherwise we can't beat them in the World Cup and that was what was so depressing when I watched England.

13:02Stuart Barnes: England had this pick and drive game that is very South African it's very Bath dare I say it in the way that Johan van Graan goes and it's what South Africa dominate and it's what will not beat them. Yeah I want to get on to maybe what changes England possibly need to implement for the game against Fiji because I know you've been writing about that Barnsley if we just keep it on this weekend for a second as we say great win for the All Blacks against France brilliant game Elgin I think you're right by the way I know you said it's the hipster's choice but to mention the Japan victory over Italy I think outside of everyone would have thought that South Africa would beat England outside of that I thought that Italy beating Japan was almost the next most likely result, if you know what I mean.

13:49I didn't see Japan winning that game, so a really significant victory. But what about Wales for you, Elgin? I mean, Fiji maybe will rue missed chances, but given everything that they have gone through as a rugby nation over the last few years, that's probably a result that not too many people saw coming.

14:07Elgan Alderman: It has to be viewed overwhelmingly positively because the difference in the meters Fiji were making, the offloading stats at halftime, it was something like 465 to 66 or something or other. They were playing different sports, it appeared at times. But Wales were still in the game. It was 10-all. And that was the type of game with the Wales of even five months here that we saw at Twickenham, the Wales that we saw throughout 2025. They would have just fallen off tackles. They would have just not been in the contest. but that development that we saw during the Six Nations with the game at home to Scotland that they should have won, the good go they gave Ireland in Dublin, then that victory over Italy as well, it was another step up in the development of that.

14:52Elgan Alderman: And yeah, they scored three more tries out of six, but that was a strength they had. They had Rhys Carey, who's now a cult hero of Welsh rugby, strong at scrum time as well. They were able to take advantage of their strengths. And in the end, the scoreline was quite convincing. As we know, Fiji have caused many Wales teams problems down the years, even the great Gatlin team. So for them to have done that, to have secured the second test win in a row, third win in a row, if you include that uncapped Barbarians game as well, it was the one of the three games in this summer series that they simply had to win because now they actually do go away to Argentina and South Africa rather than having an away game in Cardiff.

15:31well I was just about to say that Barnsley that's the other factor here is you felt that was the game that Wales had the best shot of winning because of what's to come now with going to

15:40Stuart Barnes: Argentina and then facing the box yeah and Argentina obviously will be even more difficult having lost at home to Scotland they'll have a point to prove the Welsh thing I think there's something fundamentally significant here I don't think had Ireland lost by two points instead of won by two points, I don't think it would have made any real difference where we are in terms of Farrell's development. Had France won by two instead of lost by two, I don't think it would have impacted in the slightest on Fabian Galtier. For Wales, because in those games, performance is probably more important for these two teams because they know how to win than results for Wales and I think Elgin was getting at that Wales had to win and it doesn't matter if Fiji carried 10 times as far everyone loves the way they play Wales did what they had to do to win and that that was vital and that it that is the template for Wales if you want to be if you're going to be contenders at the World Cup you need that Farrell one eye on it right now But Wales are not contenders at the next World Cup.

16:51Stuart Barnes: Wales are a team who have been rock bottom and they're trying to pull their way up. And if they made it to the quarterfinal, it would be a great achievement and it would have Welsh rugby on the roll again. And that's what Wales are about at the moment. Yeah, really good result, I thought, for Wales. The other game, actually, that I wanted to just get both of your thoughts on was that Scotland game. It's funny, isn't it? When you have a day of rugby like this, where it starts at eight in the morning and whatever, it's often the game in Argentina because it kicks off so late that I think people get fatigued with and maybe doesn't get spoken about quite as much.

17:22But it's a great result for Scotland, isn't it? We know they obviously had a really positive Six Nations off the back of a really disappointing November where they had that absolute collapse against Argentina. But that's a tricky fixture. They were without Finn Russell, and we might come on to him in a little bit ahead of them facing South Africa. But really important result for Gregor Townsend in Scotland and an impressive one as well, away against a good opposition.

17:48Elgan Alderman: And given that, you know, that Argentina game in the autumn was obviously the most gutting, the most galling, that was the real low point in recent years for Scotland, the way that Santiago Carreras inspired Argentina just destroyed them in that final quarter. That was the depth that they had plumbed in recent years. So even just as a symbol of what they were able to achieve to have beaten Argentina, they have won in Argentina quite a lot in recent years. So it's not completely alien to them. We've spoken on this podcast before about how Argentina in July against perhaps understrength European teams can be a bit of an anomaly and somehow come out with strange performances.

18:26Elgan Alderman: But for them to have won scoring seven tries as well, like you say, without some key players, not just Finn Russell, but other big names as well not playing, that was a real statement for them before they go to face the spring box again. And I just want to say before on that theme, that we talk about these old three test tours that you used to have in July. Scotland, strangely, didn't seem to be part of this old touring scheme. It'll be the first time they've faced a Springboks in South Africa for 12 years, which is quite something. So it's not an opportunity they get very often. They haven't played the old backs in New Zealand for 26.

18:59Elgan Alderman: So for a team like Scotland, this is the sort of championship that gives them a ticket to the party that they haven't always had in the past 25 years.

19:09Stuart Barnes: I'll put my hands up here. it's half time as far as I'm concerned in Scotland, Argentina. I didn't get through all of it. I thought, give myself 24 hours off and then come fresh to the game. But in the first half, I just want to comment on the quality of the Scottish midfield play. England look like they are wading through soup and have done for years. They don't know what they're doing at 10, 12, 13. There's no Hugh Jones, but Hutchison's come in and I'm a massive fan of him. I remember long chats I've had with Christopher Boyd and Boyd said to me, how do you like this bloke? And he knew what I'd say because his running lines and his passing game is sublime.

19:56Stuart Barnes: The first Scotland try when he just cuts back at a 90 degree angle and flips the pass out off the left hand is as good a piece of distribution and space creativity, as you'll find in rugby. And, you know, Tui Palotti was playing beautifully. Fergus Burt came in early on with an injury, looks very good. The Scotland midfield, and maybe I'll talk about it another time when I see the second half, but 10, 12, 13, they are a delight to watch and they know, they have every idea what they're doing in a way that, God, you want England to sort of have some concept of what does that midfield about? Yeah, totally agree.

20:42It's so funny when you look at Scotland in recent years and their midfield and how effective they are, how good they are. And you contrast that with England, which has always felt a bit muddled. We'll get on to England in just a moment. We'll take a quick pause here because on Sunday morning, I caught up with Peter O 'Reilly, who is our man on the ground in Sydney covering Ireland's tour. so we began by reflecting on their narrow victory over the Wallabies. Well Peter, great to have you back on the ruck all the way from Sydney where you get to base yourself for another week because Ireland have Japan up next in Newcastle but if we can start off by looking back I mean I suppose first of all how impressive a victory was that for Ireland over the Wallabies given, let's be honest, Ireland were on the back foot Australia dominated large parts of that game.

21:29yeah um Andy Farrell came into the press conference and as we were putting our dictaphones down on the desk he said uh he said he's never in doubt he said um they knew I think Ireland know that um they got away with it they scraped to victory what's impressive is that they won not playing particularly well you know there were several facets of their game that they need to work on and Farrell was very quick to to point that out um so it was a far from perfect performance But to come away with the W, even if you're relying on an Australian mistake ultimately to get yourself over the line with the Donaldson penalty miss right at the death.

22:09Given where they were at, I mean, at 24-12 in the second quarter of the game, honestly, I was thinking, can they escape to half time here? And are we looking at a seriously one-sided game with an embarrassing scoreline? so I have to say I was really impressed by Ireland's resolve, their opportunism and their self-belief, and I think that was really ultimately what, along with place-kicking, what decided it. You ride your luck, don't you, at this level, but were they a little bit lucky, do you think, with the pass for the try right at the end of the first half? I suppose the counter-argument from Ireland would be they were unlucky with the driving mall try that got disallowed.

22:54Yeah, I was surprised they didn't have a closer look. at the Jack Conan pass, certainly. To the naked eye, it looked 50-50. I think these days the 50-50s tend to go in the favour of the attacking team. It did on that occasion, certainly. Was there an element of luck? Yeah. I mean, again, Farrell said that when Donaldson lined up the kick, even though it was from roughly 50 metres at a tough angle on the right-hand side, he expected him to get it on the basis that he had had a sightener if you like earlier on having had a penalty from a similar angle in the 71st minute or thereabouts so yeah but you take you know you take your luck Ireland can think I can think of plenty of games that have gone down to the wire specifically against the All Blacks they Ireland against the All Blacks they've had times when the game has gone against them at the end and you know you sport is about about luck some of the time and yesterday I thought Ireland the fact that they finished so strong the fact that Australia didn't score after the 53rd minute it points to a very resilient Irish team who believe that if certainly if they can get within 10 meters of their opponent's line if they can get a set piece or a free kick they really back themselves to score points to score points in in sevens so that was the most impressive thing was the resolve the self-belief the resilience whatever you want to call it and you know they know they need to get better if for example they're going to beat New Zealand for the first time at Eden Park they're gonna have to be a lot better but they got there they have momentum in their nation's championship is up and running Yeah, where are you, as someone that watches them all the time and watch all the games, where are you with Ireland in your mind, Peter, in terms of, I think back to the start of the Six Nations.

24:59They lose against France. Farrell comes out after the game and is really strong, pretty punchy about what he made of the performance. They then roll through the rest of the Six Nations. That super impressive victory over England at Twickenham. And then they go in against Australia, as you say, not at their best, but still able to win the game. So I suppose, I guess my question is, how good are Ireland at this moment in time? Well, I don't think this Irish team is as good as the 2023 team. You know, I think if Ireland were ever going to win a World Cup, to me, it feels that that was their opportunity.

25:32And this is oversimplification, I think, maybe. But by deciding to ask Johnny Sexton to play until he was 38, Farrell was putting all his chips on that World Cup. and he was, I suppose, understanding that he was delaying the replacement of Johnny Sexton process, if you like. And that's one area where Ireland haven't been world class. They haven't been able to nail down their best fly half. It's meant that that has put extra pressure on Jameson Gibson Park and he has responded incredibly well. But there's still that uncertainty. but I think that's one of the real positives out of last night was the performance of Sam Prendergast.

26:16It wasn't perfect. There were errors, but that was a major step forward from him. I mean, you mentioned a poor Six Nations start in Paris. It was also a very scratchy win over Italy in Dublin, after which Prendergast was summarily dropped. You know, that was a real low point, and it's only about three or four months ago. So the way that he has responded with Jack Crowley out of the picture through injury, that's a major plus. But they are strong in certain areas. But, for example, they had no real gas on the pitch last night because Balakoon pulled out with a hamstring injury and Tommy O 'Brien was already injured.

26:58But that was one area where they advanced during the Six Nations. Specifically, you'll remember the game in Twickenham where they looked like they could threaten teams on the edge. which was that was a weakness maybe 12 months ago even. So where are they at? I don't think they will go to the World Cup next year with people talking about them winning it. But they're still in the conversation for a semi-final spot and we've never had one of those. I think some of the pressure will be off them because the expectation will be down a little bit from where it was in 2023. So they're not in a bad place.

27:33Yeah, I think they're heading in the right direction and their spirit and their self-belief and their ability to play for each other is really well advanced, I would say. What happens with Prendergast now, do you think, Peter? Does he play again against Japan? It's going to be quite fascinating to see what Farrell does for that game at Eden Park. The impression I have is that he would like to make a couple of changes or to spin things around a little bit against Japan, if possible. at the same time being wary of Eddie Jones, his old mucker, and being cognizant of the fact that Japan had a great victory yesterday.

28:14So I certainly think that he will give Sam Prendergast. I would say he will definitely start at Eden Park. It wouldn't surprise me if Prendergast starts against Japan as well. My suspicion is that Farrell thinks that while Harry Byrne, who's the number two out half here, is a highly capable player. He has always believed that Sam Prendergast is capable of taking Ireland to a level of sophistication in attack that the other out halves don't have. So I'd say he'll be very positive and very happy about Prendergast's performance last night because it hints at what can be achieved in attack when he's actually pulling the strings.

29:05In terms of the game on the weekend then, what did you make about the Wallabies? And from an Australian point of view, I'm always fascinated about this because in about a year's time, a little over a year's time, we're going to be on the verge of the World Cup on Aussie soil. What did you make of, well, Joe Schmidt's team that's going to become Les Kiss's team? Because in periods, brilliant, but they still can't quite get over the line off the back of a year where they lost 10 test matches? Yeah, well, we were talking about succession planning for Andy Farrell. Succession planning for the Wallabies is tricky.

29:38There's quite a few players in their team who have very little test match experience and we're not far away from a World Cup. So what was really good from Joe Schmidt's point of view and Les Kiss's point of view was that the selections that were made that were deemed to be taking a punt, like, for example, bringing Jack Campbell back at fullback and picking Ryan Lonergan at Scrum Half, that worked really well. Canham in the second row was a major plus for them. He's a 6 '8 line-out jumper, very good on opposition ball, but also did a lot of grunt work around the park as well. they've got some serious cattle was the word cattle was the word that Andy Farrell used Su Ali obviously can can frighten opposing sides Rob Valentini why you wouldn't want to be standing in the way when he's running at you so there's there are a lot of positives and that's why I think they'll be so they'll be so downcast after seeing that one slip away because you need to win those tight games to really build self-belief and build momentum so it's a it's a tricky one for them you know there's a they're down the pecking order here in a very sport obsessed country so winning games like that is where you you get the public back on side so it was a it was a huge opportunity for them so they've got they've got a bit of work to do also the whole handing over process from Schmidt to Kiss seems to be delayed now you can't really see the value in that you imagine that Les Kiss now that he's finished with the Queensland Reds that he wants to get in there and get his hands dirty but he seems to be on the periphery so that's but that's that's another issue I suppose yeah see how the Wallabies build into next year final question then Pete on Ireland one win against Australia they'll be favourites to face Japan although as you say Japan got a really good victory against the Italians.

31:43I suppose the win over the Wallabies has just set Ireland up really well here, hasn't it? I know the big game is coming up against the All Blacks, but if they roll into that with two wins already under their belt, then it takes a bit of the pressure off and they're in a great position to do that. Yeah, they'll go in as underdogs. Ireland have never won at Eden Park.

32:07and I suppose they probably feel like the all-blacks won at this stage as well. Farrell was kind of keen to stress afterwards that nobody has mentioned words like jet lag or end of season because looking from the outside, so many of these Irish players were here 12 months ago with the Lions and they're going to be back here in about 14 months and it all just seems to roll into you know from one season to the next you're wondering how do they uh you know how do they punctuate but also how did how do they recover but you also get the sense that they absolutely adore being in in ireland camp that the farrell has uh has managed to create a a working environment where they they get the best out of each other they work hard when they're working they enjoy each other's company when they're not working and yeah I think they will they really relish the opportunity to have a pop at the All Blacks definitely yeah.

33:09Well Peter awesome to have you back on enjoy Sydney for the rest of the week and then the game in Newcastle and we'll speak to you next week after that match against Japan. Look forward to it Alfie.

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34:52Elgan Alderman: Wayfair, every style, every home. So great to have Peter O 'Reilly back on the ruck. We will speak to him next week. Ireland, as we mentioned, they're staying in Australia. Japan are coming to them for the next match. That's happening in Newcastle. Barnsley, I want to pick up, though, with that game. At the end of that game, Australia had a shot at post. Tough penalty, let's be honest, but they went for it. They missed it. Correct decision or wrong decision, as far as you're concerned?

35:20Stuart Barnes: Well, I haven't been a captain at Bath for a long time in pressure situations and haven't been a kicker for a long time. I sort of see it both ways if you're a kicker and you believe you can get it then the captain has to cede to your self-belief you have to if you're a kicker and you think I got a chance of this then as captain you say well what sort of chance and you do your sums and that was on the 5 metre line 40 metres out I was watching it and I thought knowing Donaldson as a kicker he will not get that not because of choking or anything, but the range was too great. And someone said, well, he had the distance, so it was the right thing to do.

36:03Stuart Barnes: He didn't get the accuracy because he put too much into it. That's what happens with missed kicks. You try too hard. So the fact that he tells you it's a wrong decision, me sitting on my sofa with a cup of coffee was shouting, have you got a left-footed bloke to poke a ball into the corner? The one thing I would say, It looked obvious that they should have kicked for the corner and then driven because the kick seemed to me way too hard. But it was only five metres out. And if Australia didn't have a left footed kicker, they weren't going to get that within five metres. And everyone was hearing people saying, just bang it down into the corner.

36:41Stuart Barnes: But you can't just do that. You watch players. It's an art form. You know, there aren't that many Henry Slades to a dozen. So I wouldn't be overly critical of Australia, but I think it was the wrong decision. Interesting. I actually thought it was the right decision because of what you've touched upon there and that where it was, yes, it was a really tough penalty. But I thought at least with a penalty, if you miss it, you've at least given yourself a shot at winning the game. Whereas because of where the penalty was, you might not get it that close to the corner. You might then mess up the line out and you've almost lost your shot at winning the game.

37:13So I backed it. But yeah, it's an interesting one from that sort of angle. In terms of the Aussies themselves, I find them such an enigma in a way because they're a year out. As I just mentioned to Peter there, they're a year out from their own World Cup. They clearly have some brilliant players. We've seen flashes and moments of real quality from them, which was the same in this game. But it's another defeat. And last year we saw them play quite well in quite a few games, but lose lots of matches. What's your assessment of the Wallabies with not long to go until they've got a World Cup on home soil?

37:45Stuart Barnes: I think they're going to start winning and they're going to start winning fairly quickly. They've got front row cover coming off the bench that is getting stronger and stronger. And they're doing things very differently. Lenny Ictow, there's no centre in Europe who is an expert at going into the pick and drive, flipping it with the hands once, twice, diving himself. What Australia are doing, an area of the game that has become a fundamental importance, that five-metre pick and drive, is they're revolutionising it. And everyone is facing, defences are facing in, waiting for the drive. Australia are becoming the masters at scoring in the corner after three or four phases, feint and go.

38:30Stuart Barnes: And that tells me that Joe Smith's going to be leaving Australia, I think, in a pretty good place. I'm impressed with Australia. I thought they were, in many ways, the better team. but our island just slugged it out and they're used to winning but um a year from now I wouldn't bet on that being the same result yeah the first thing that struck me was I thought they had

38:52Elgan Alderman: tremendous socks the Wallabies gone back to a lovely hoop pattern I thought that was lovely for starters but I think the thing about this Wallabies team probably going back 10 years or so is that they've always had a good good performances in them and really good performances it's just stringing that out over an entire campaign, an entire autumn, an entire summer. I think the fact that they didn't get over the line in this one, the danger now is that they lose to France next weekend and suddenly they've got that final game where they have to win to try and get something or could they wilt towards the end of a campaign, which is what happened in the autumn, really, when you struggle at the start.

39:30Elgan Alderman: They do have a capacity maybe to just run out of steam by the end of one of these short blocks of internationals. So that game against France next weekend now, a huge importance, obviously just a hugely interesting game anyway, but a huge importance for them now to try and get a win before that final one against Italy.

39:47Stuart Barnes: Just coming on that, Elgin, do you think that this is the case? You know, we talk about, it's been a long season for the Southern Hemisphere and we get to the end of the November internationals And we always say when New Zealand lose at Twickenham, they had one thought to get back on the plane. Do you think Toulouse are two weeks out from the top 14 championship? You know better than most how intense it is. They threw everything minus their Toulouse players at New Zealand and almost got a result. do you think there's a possibility that Toulouse won't the Toulouse contingent won't be quite what they were and the Bordeaux boys gave it everything in in Christchurch and that France might just be the ones who are slightly drained and Australia I think Australia have a good chance having played the first international of the season of getting a big victory here I'm glad you glad you mentioned

40:48Elgan Alderman: at Barnes because it has always struck me throughout my rugby watching life that the Southern Hemisphere are always knackered when they get here, but the Northern Hemisphere were never regarded as being knackered when they went there at the end of their season. I think with Toulouse, a few weeks ago, they did look knackered and they did look like they were going to struggle towards the end of the season and that record-equalling fourth successive top 14 title might prove beyond them with the way that Montpellier were finishing the season well, but then they just found a way to win again, a narrow victory at Stade de France in that final.

41:24Elgan Alderman: So to me, it felt like they'd rediscovered some of their vigour towards the end of that season. I don't think it'll be too big a factor personally. I think just the quality of those Toulouse players, the familiarity they have with each other, the cohesion they have with each other, does make France favourites next weekend, And even though it isn't a fully strengthened France team with Louis Bielbire back at home and Antoine Dupont injured again. But no, certainly if the tables were turned, people would be saying, oh, it's the end of the season. They're absolutely knackered. But it never seems to be quite the same way in July, despite the rigours of the top 14.

42:05Well, that's another absolutely tantalising game this coming weekend. Let's get on to England. If you want the thoughts of the boys, by the way, from out in South Africa, than they did a pod on Saturday night. Charlie, Will, Alex from Ellis Park immediately after South Africa's absolutely thumping win over England. In terms of, Barnsley, if we throw it ahead to Fiji, how much pressure, in your mind, are England under? And I guess more specifically here, is Steve Borthwick under ahead of this match?

42:33Stuart Barnes: Well, here's the question. Are we talking about England or are we talking about Steve Borthwick? And at the moment, I fear England's selection is more geared towards what the management feel than what they feel is right for the players. And that concerns me. England cannot be under pressure to win because they have to have a power and they do have a power with a pack to take Fiji to the cleaners, should they so wish. So there's no pressure on both. If England, all winning is all that matters because they can do that. They can play 10-man rugby, but that'll take them nowhere. That'll take them absolutely nowhere.

43:16Stuart Barnes: There is pressure if they try and say, how do we evolve our game? Because that plays a little bit into Fiji hands. But that's what they've got to do. And so that's where the pressure comes on England to win. But I cannot believe that England don't have the overall power and strength in depth to go 80 minutes with 23 men and beat Fiji. For all, you know, Fiji are a team that play in glorious glimpses and that doesn't beat the big guns. I guess the big question now, Algon, is are England a big gun? They've lost five on the trot, but they can't go five straight defeats. Therefore, what we must do is play 10-man rugby and squeeze Fiji and win because that is 80 minutes of England's preparation for the next World Cup, for the development of the team overall, utterly and completely wasted.

44:13Stuart Barnes: They have to do more than just be negative.

44:16Elgan Alderman: At the same time, I think it's the thing that a lot of teams have to face when they come up against Fiji. They have to try and... I remember Warren Gatlin always said we can't be sucked into playing the type of game they want to play. Then we saw last weekend that Wales did manage to beat them by playing a different style of rugby. In that sense, it would be quite brave of England to just try and maul and scrum them off the park. Like you say, Barnsley, it maybe isn't the best thing for the long-term development, but the requirement to get a win to try and channel strengths. I know the English viewing public can often get bored by seeing too much kicking and scrummaging and mauling, but actually in this instance, I think it'd be quite a brave decision for them to just try and win in quite a straightforward, boring fashion, given the results they've had and all the defeats they've had in the last few months.

45:06Stuart Barnes: I wonder, though, you look at the back line, and Seb Atkinson is not doing at international level what he does for club level. He doesn't have quite the power. I don't think he's got quite the skill set. You play Max Jomo, you bring in Bernard Jans van Rensburg, and you suddenly have got two centres who England have lacked the capacity to create, to get behind the defence, to offload passes, to almost be a little bit Fijian. And there has to be something different. This goes back to, you know, if England don't look for that, then they carry on in the same mindset as they took to Johannesburg and they're just going to keep losing.

45:49Stuart Barnes: And if they're going to keep losing, then England might as well come up with a statement and say, we're going to be like Wales. We're just going to try and win the odd game and get ourselves on an even keel. And the English public won't accept that. England have to radically change what they're doing because the English way, the Borthwick way, doesn't work. And this is the time for England to have some courage. I mean, I'm sure everyone's thinking I've lost the plot. But when I was writing yesterday, I was halfway through a column and I thought, if they're not prepared to be fresh in terms of changing the management, which I think they should have done, then you've got to change personnel.

46:28Stuart Barnes: And I thought, what better time to make a 21-year-old like Henry Pollock captain to just galvanise them? And everyone's laughing at it, but this is an England team that are just wading through metaphorical mud. And you need someone who's got the balls to say, I don't care, I'm going to go and do something. And I'm sure it's not going to happen, but that's the sort of mindset that England should be adopting and they're nowhere near that at the moment. They're just in a fearful place.

47:00Elgan Alderman: I had a sense of deja vu reading that, Colin Barnsley, because I remember when you always used to say that Cipriani should be England captain back when he was young.

47:09Stuart Barnes: Well, where did England go without him? He kept Eddie Jones a job in, I think it was in Cape Town when he played quite beautifully, but Danny Cipriani spoke his mind And this is an era when people who speak their mind to coaches, watch out, you struggle. Just on that, though, Barnsley, and I can imagine some of the reaction you've had to suggesting Henry Pollock should be the captain. Is Pollock ready for that? He's started once. I understand the call, by the way, for drastic action and big changes and some punchy selections. I'm just not convinced that Henry Pollock to captain is necessarily one of those.

47:46It doesn't strike me at the moment as good a player as Henry Pollock is, as so many of the positives that he brings to this England team, whether he really would be ready for the captaincy.

47:55Stuart Barnes: Of course. Listen, I know that. But in my playing days, they gave Will Carling the captaincy and he had no experience and he was young. Pollock's got probably more experience of pressurised rugby, European finals and premiership finals. What he does, if you think back to this season, 82 ,000 at Twickenham, playing Leicester in an East Midlands derby semifinal, the bigger the game, the better he played. And at some stage, England are going to have to be bold. And of course, I'm well aware that he hasn't played that much, but I'm also aware that the ones that have played that much have been playing that much under coaches that have stifled them England don't there's not a lot of smiling in England so what do you want like do you want a captain like Jamie George who's experienced and knows what the coach wants or do you want someone who can just say look we're in third gear let's have a go let's try and crank it up into fifth gear and see where we go because England are stalling they're spluttering it seems like a lot of this stems back to the coaching though right like ultimately in terms of what you're saying the game plan, the selection, that sort of thing.

49:09And as you mentioned already, the RFU in that review seem to back Steve Borthwick. But if they are to lose to Fiji, then the pressure is massively going to be on. All those conversations come back about his future.

49:22Stuart Barnes: He has to go if they lose to Fiji. It is about performance for England at the moment, not result. But that's a result they cannot get away with. That would be six straight defeats. and Fiji, for all their brilliance, would be perceived as one England should not be losing to. You know, I said before they played France, I threw my hat in the ring in press the day before the game. I think England should have got rid of Borthwick. I think they should have selected Michael Checker to do a one-year radical job to get them going. And that's where the idea about Pollock comes from. Somebody who can just, choom, ignite them.

50:03Stuart Barnes: Ignite them. Check a can. Steve Borthwick, he's a thinking man and he goes through his statistics, but I don't know you think, Algun, but is he going to ignite England between now and Australia to the point where they suddenly look like a team who can be contenders? And England, that's what the RFU expect of their head coach. Someone who can make sure they are contenders at the very least come this four-year jamboree that's called the World Cup.

50:32Elgan Alderman: I'm just sitting here laughing at some of the reactions I'm sure people will be having to the suggestion of Henry Pollock's England conducting the coin toss against Fiji at Hill Dickinson Stadium on Saturday. That's all I have to say on the matter. Well, look, England's team later this week, the next pod from England's training base will be with you on Thursday. We'll perhaps leave them there, but there's no getting away from the fact, is there, that massive pressure on that Fiji game. loads of question marks around England once again and yep it's pretty punchy but you can go and read Barnsley's article where he suggested Pollock for captain find that on the times and also you can email us the ruck at the times.co.uk can we get to some of the other matches happening this weekend Scotland as we've mentioned already good win against Argentina now they go to South Africa Barnsley how important is it he might be back that Finn Russell is available for this game which is a tough game regardless.

51:30Scotland are underdogs regardless, but surely they need him back, right?

51:34Stuart Barnes: No. Bath couldn't survive without him. Scotland did a very good job without Finn Russell. And again, I'm going to go back to this thing about one eye on the next test, one eye on the World Cup. Scotland, like Bath, could be in danger of over-relying on Russell. He's a brilliant player. Why I say it's not critical to have him is in no way an indictment of Russell. I'm a great fan of his but Fergus Burke uh stroke Tom Jordan has to get fly half game time uh between now and then and I thought uh half time at least um Burke was having a cracking match and Scotland have four centers who at the moment would all get in the England team ahead of any English option so it's not as if a fly half is without help there in Ben White they've got a developing scrum half So, you know, if they're going to beat South Africa, maybe the magic that Russell can bring is going to be needed because I don't think they could beat them just by playing Scotland near their structured best.

52:39Stuart Barnes: Something else has got to happen. But if Scotland are going to go to South Africa and they're going to give them a good game and they can come away from that country with a narrow defeat, then I'd say they'll have got more from the occasion without them with Russell. Yeah, fair point. What about Wales, Elgin? They've had great victory against Fiji. It gets a lot tougher now over the next few weekends. I guess, as we touched upon earlier, it stands them in good stead, right? Like, not that the pressure is totally off, but they have won the game that we thought they had the best chance of winning, which just eases some of the pressure ahead of facing Argentina.

53:18Elgan Alderman: Yeah, absolutely. They're in a stage now where a loss isn't terminal. You know, they've winning two tests in a row, three games, including that Barbarians one. It means now that they can go there with a sense of confidence, with a sense of belief that they've, the improvements they've made over the last four months. You know, Wales have won out in Argentina many years ago. Obviously, that was a very different year, a very different team. But it's not an alien achievement for Welsh teams to go and do. They can go out there and have a good crack at them. And as long as they continue to improve and give themselves a chance of winning, then, yeah, they've got now that opportunity to have a free swing before the real imposing test, like you say, of the spring box away, where just no one will be expecting anything to come from that result.

54:04Elgan Alderman: So they can go there knowing that, yeah, defeat isn't terminal, but the chance of a great victory to keep this upward improvement going is there to be done. And Argentina, as we've said many times, they can capitulate at home. They are the great mercurial team in world rugby these days where they can lay waste to you, but they can also just lose bizarrely. So it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Wales go there and win, but they would be the underdogs.

54:30Stuart Barnes: And on a global perspective, Elgin, is it not fair to say that suddenly with Wales just starting to win, but only just starting to win, and Argentina losing to Scotland at home, we've been talking about pressure and you've been asking us, Alfie, about who's under pressure and pressure, pressure. Argentina will be under massive pressure to beat a Welsh team that they are expected to win and that will help Wales. Well, we'll see how Wales get on. Again, another Saturday where that's one of six fixtures. So to run you through it, New Zealand, Italy, Australia, France, Japan, Ireland, Fiji, England, South Africa, Scotland and then that Argentina-Wales game.

55:09Barnsley, do you want to start here? What's your pick of all of those matches?

55:12Stuart Barnes: I think it's predictable, but I think Australia versus France is a tantalising prospect. Really good game coming up.

55:21Elgan Alderman: Elgin? I agree with Barnsley that's really tantalising but I will also just be fascinated to see have Scotland fare against the Springboks away because like I mentioned earlier in this modern era where it feels like there is no scarcity anymore the fact that Scotland haven't played there for so long it's a very 1980s 70s gap between drinks in South Africa for a lot of those players some of them will have played there for the Lions or played club rugby out in South Africa. But for an opportunity to wear that Scotland jersey and play the Springboks in South Africa is something that hasn't happened for a very long time.

55:58Yeah, do you know, I'm quite intrigued by Wales' game as well, just because they're building a little bit of momentum. I know they're by no means the force they were of old, of just a couple of victories, but it does feel like there is starting to be a bit of positivity there. So I'm intrigued to see how they go against Argentina. That's a much tougher test you would imagine away from home than they faced in their last couple of victories. But also, it's wall-to-wall rugby again. Sit yourself down on your sofa and get comfortable on Saturday.

56:30Elgan Alderman: It is, yeah. There's less of a time zone trouble next Saturday with a football game slap bang in the middle that relegates England's Springboks to ITV4. This time we've got 13 hours in a row on ITV1, 6am to 7pm. So the first five games are all on the main channel. Argentina-Wales relegated to ITV4 in favour of who wants to be a millionaire, followed by England versus Norway at 10pm, which is fair enough.

56:54Stuart Barnes: And the prospect of England travelling the other part, all the way around the globe to face Fiji at Everton. Yeah, well, I will be there for that one. Although the fact that it is now the England quarterfinal at 10pm on Saturday, I'm thinking, how do I get home in time for that? I'll work all that out anyway. Final thing, actually, before we go, Elgin, we should probably mention the Nations Cup. It's always something that doesn't get a huge amount of coverage, but some quite significant results in that over the weekend.

57:21Elgan Alderman: Some people are calling it the biggest sporting event taking place in North America at this moment. And especially, I mean, Canada, Spain, 42 all draw. That's the star result of last Saturday. I know you guys touched on it last week about how one of the positives of this is that those nations outside of the rugby championship, the Six Nations, PG Japan, now have some organised fixtures and a set of framework where they can play against each other rather than just randomly scrabbling around for games. And the first round, there were a lot of really intriguing results. We had Georgia winning out in Uruguay, 41-34.

57:55Elgan Alderman: That was a close one. Chile-Romania was 48-31, another good one. But like I say, Canada-Spain, 42-all. USA, just late penalty to beat Portugal, 30-29. And Tonga-Zimbabwe was the last one, 36-26. So with the exception of Samoa's heavy win over Hong Kong, they're all pretty decent scoring, but also close fixtures. So hopefully that will stand all those nations in good stead over the next few months. They'll have an autumn leg as well, where we'll have another bit of strange geography with Zimbabwe playing their home games in England in November as part of that. And then obviously we're looking towards the World Cup next year, where hopefully that will just mean that all of these slightly more Mino nations have got a bit more energy in their legs.

58:41Elgan Alderman: They've experienced some contests before they go into that World Cup. And Canada and Spain is exactly the type of game that hopefully we'll see plenty of fun results at the World Cup. There is an element of juggling going on with this whole concept, isn't it? But still, my favourite part of that is Japan being in the Southern Hemisphere in terms of juggling things to make it work. That's probably my favourite of the lot. Barnsley Elgin pleasure as always we will leave it there as I've mentioned already next pod for you coming on Thursday from the England training base ahead of their game with Fiji and then we'll be in Liverpool at the Everton Stadium for that match podding on Saturday as well so loads more coming your way if you want to send us an email the email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk appreciate you listening and we'll be back with you on Thursday At PwC we optimise the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible.

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