Northampton Saints beat Exeter Chiefs in compelling final

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1:28and Saints beat Exeter Chiefs. I'm Alfie Reynolds. Alongside me in the stands to review it, to try and make sense of it, is Charlie Morgan. All right, Charlie. Hello, pal. And Alex Lowe. Hi, Alex. Hello, how's it going? I'm good, thank you. My question for both of you after that is, what did you make of that game? So I was up here, I was hosting Talk Sports coverage. We had Andrew McKenna and Topsy Ojo on comms. And for most of that game, I was there thinking, this is epic. This is tight. It's physical. Exeter have absolutely turned up, Northampton are quite a way off the standards we know that they can reach but it made it a compelling game a game that was really in the balance I thought it was epic and then the longer time has passed since the full-time whistle You're doubting yourself I am after listening to the press conferences after chatting to you guys and other people in the kind of media areas

2:17Alex Lowe: Don't listen to press conferences

2:19Charlie Morgan: I feel like I extinguished your bonfire a bit because you came down from the lift and asked me first I thought it was a bit scruffy but you know quite gripping and Alfie's face just dropped I thought it was pretty good.

2:29Alex Lowe: I think a lot of the words you used are right. So it was hugely physical, really intense and really compelling. It didn't feel like a classic final, but it felt tighter than the final scoreline actually was, which is kind of nine points. It's kind of unusual and unusually big margin in recent years for a Prem final. But what it was, was Saints not quite at their best and knocked out of their game a bit by Exeter, because that's what Exeter do so well. and it sort of built to this point in the game where Exeter have chiselled a small lead and they are having to dig into their reserves to try and keep out Northampton.

3:09Alex Lowe: And Northampton weren't sharp like they can be, they weren't smooth and fluid like they can be. They certainly blew two or three really straightforward try-scoring opportunities. But the game to me sort of built to this point where Saints were just going to keep throwing punches, keep throwing punches and when JJ van der Mesch came on it was just after Kemany got Simbin'd Sam Vestey was doing the little chat with TNT and he's like the message is keep playing so I think van der Mesch came on with that message to the team because they did they kept going and Freeman pops a Furbank pops the ball off the floor to Freeman other way around and other way around actually Freeman pops it up to Furbank slices through and they just it basically built to this point where Saints were just throwing as many punches as they could.

3:58Alex Lowe: A lot of them were missing until just after the hour mark they landed two in three minutes. George Hendy in the same corner twice. And that was the game because at that point I think Exeter were, they'd given everything they had left. So I don't think I'll recall it as a classic but it was definitely physical, it was definitely intense, definitely compelling and the best best team in the country had to go to the last quarter to win it which didn't happen in the URC and it definitely didn't happen in Super Rugby this morning where the other Chiefs got absolutely walloped by the Hurricanes and in a season of that's been sort of littered with blowouts in the Prem the knockout stages have been like really tight and intense and of pretty good quality.

4:47Charlie Morgan: Almost jarring to see defence be on top for so long and you know notwithstanding a lot of errors from both sides. Northampton missed a couple of walk-ins, really, and Exeter won't be completely delighted with their execution either. But, yeah, I agree with a lot of what Alex has said there as far as Exeter being the best defence statistically in the league, pressurising Northampton, pressurising Finn Smith into a few errors. I thought he, in a way, sort of encapsulated his side's performance in that he kept going. He's spoken previously this year about freeing himself up so he doesn't sort of get wracked with anxiety and go within his shell in games.

5:30Charlie Morgan: And it was his little nudge for Hendy's second, wasn't it? But I think the telling certainly that Northampton scored their two telling tries after having to think their way out of trouble on the hour mark, after John Schakemini had come back on and while Daph Jenkins was still off. So they still had that one-man advantage and made it pay. There is something satisfying in the tabletoppers winning out. Fifth time in a row. Yeah, and I think, yeah, they're undisputably the best side in the land. But Exeter put them in a tough spot, and it's quite nice to have seen them work their way out of that.

6:13Alex Lowe: On the 20-minute mark and on the hour mark, booze rang around this place because we had world cup style hydration breaks and obviously their advert breaks for the world cup here it was hot and humid and muggy and i i think on both occasions northampton used them better i think i think they were right they were under the cosh up to the 20 minute mark and they came out and their scrum began to grow and they i thought they came out of that really strongly and scored and they kind of they gave a gift away at the end of the first half but I thought they came out of the 20 minute break the better of the two teams and then I think they came out of the 60 minute break obviously the stronger I think the messages have been reinforced to them about keep going like they are going to try and defend this lead for 20 minutes let's just keep playing and Saints did keep playing and scored those two tries that sealed the game.

7:05Charlie Morgan: The Saints bench felt really big for me Fischetti with a big jackal turnover with a chick bringing a lot of leadership and a bit of abrasive carry.

7:14Alex Lowe: And that Jackal turnover, straight after they scored, just meant the pattern, Exeter couldn't change the pattern, it just became them, fingers in the dam, just trying everything they could, and eventually it just overwhelmed them too much. So moments like that Frischetti turnover are really big.

7:29Charlie Morgan: Yeah, and Fraser Dingwall was the last replacement I was going to mention, just because I think we laugh about how often we highlight intangible things he does, and I think that was a day absolutely for him as far as settling everybody down, just ensuring that A, they kept playing and B, there was a little bit more accuracy about what they were putting together. Perhaps I wasn't, in my immediate thoughts on the game, giving Northampton enough credit there. And I think you're right to highlight Finn Smith and almost staying in the fight because I thought Exeter were really clever and did a really good job of cutting off the passing lane, stopping that Northampton shape and attack.

8:03I mean, Finn Smith, he's probably celebrating now, but I think his ribcage is probably still vibrating from the hit he got. When he got up from scoring his try,

8:11Alex Lowe: he peeled himself off the floor after being leathered by Ethan Roots, and then he scored the try, and even standing up from that looked painful, but then he nailed the kick. I think your perspective on Saints is interesting because you're judging them based on some of the performances. You're judging them on the Leicester performance last week. You're judging them on some of the rugby that they have played this year. You know, they've scored a record number of tries. They put 90 points on Bristol. They've played some extraordinary rugby this season. Today, in the tense environment of a final against the best defensive team in the country, they couldn't get that flowing.

8:51Alex Lowe: And so based on their best, they weren't at their best. And it required them to dog it at times and to stay resilient. And that's how I saw the picture of the game. It was like a wrestle for momentum the whole way through to about 60 when Exeter, who had gone to the well last week, and just to get here had had to beat Barth at home, beat Leicester away, beat Saracens away. Do it the hard way, as Rob Baxter said. Again, right at the death. They had given everything just to be here, and by 60, I thought they looked a bit punched out and Saints could then come over the top of him.

9:29Charlie Morgan: Classic Rob Baxter. That was put to him, wasn't it? he wasn't having it at all but I think I think it's totally a totally valid point I was actually impressed that that Saints did have that notwithstanding there you know one day one day extra on the turnaround but they yeah extra really contributed to this final I think that's that's what that's what's really important to to remember I think where you mentioned there about their defense and that press Alfie I think Jerry Flannery the Springboks defense coach watching that I think that's going to be really interesting to see how he goes after an England back line that's going to have a few Saints in it for sure so yeah more more to come this this this summer but yeah a nice way to sign off sign off the domestic one.

10:07I guess the thing on on Saints that I'll finish on is I put it to Phil Dowson afterwards I remember two years ago here I was chatting to interviewing Sam Vestey pitch side and all the chaos of when they'd just beaten Bath and he said we really put to the test the old cliche of the best teams win when they're not at their best they didn't play that well but they were able to win and I put that to Phil Dowson of did you do that again today and actually he said no not really I did like that's not how he saw the game and how it was panning out so that's all part of my my perception and my view on this game has slowly been been chipped away which has been quite interesting look I think the thing we should maybe get on to a bit more generally is Northampton's second title in in three years um Champions Cup final defeat last year does this cement them I think I asked the question didn't I or suggested on Monday's pod that a victory here for Northampton almost cements them as the latest dynasty in English club rugby.

10:58Are we in that territory for this Northampton team?

11:01Charlie Morgan: Maybe internally, as far as Northampton's history, I think there's a way to go to maybe match the Saracens dynasty, the Leicester Tigers one of a bit earlier than that. I just think the whole operation, nobody, it can't be said enough, and it is said a lot, how well it's run as a club. as far as bringing through their own, picking up smart signings. You know, J.J. Van Der Mesch has been a game changer in a Prem Final there and he was picked up from Stade Francais when Stade Francais were looking to sort of eke out a bit of salary cap space and he's been a difference maker in a Prem Final. They will have to do that again because they're losing George Furbank and they're not bringing in superstars over the summer, they're bringing in guys from the Champ and they're going to have to back their youth again and I guess go to another level with the core of players that they've got.

11:55Charlie Morgan: So that's a special effort to keep doing that. And it really, really is impressive. And a lot of that comes back to the spine of the kind of decision makers in and around the first team in Fieldhouse and Sam Vesti, but also Mark Copley, give him a shout out as well, their head of academy, who excellent talent identification, excellent at developing those players so that they're ready to go. So, I mean, the fact that Archie McParlane going off today felt like a major setback when he's at the end of his first proper season in senior rugby, that's what Northampton Saints are about, really. It's going to be really interesting to see where they go next season.

12:36Alex Lowe: Yeah, it's a testament to, as you say, the way that the whole club is run and the coaching at academy level and senior level that they've got a model. They don't pay to the salary cap, So they've won two titles in three years without paying close to salary cap. I don't know the exact numbers, but half the league can spend more, maybe more than them, maybe more than half. And they do it because they trust in the talent ID and the coaching and the academy, they trust in the next generation to come through. So they decide they can only offer George Furbank a one-year deal. He wants two years. That would be two years on big money because he's a club captain, important England player.

13:18Alex Lowe: when they know they've got Hendy, but they also know they've got James Pater, 18-year-old coming through. Two years ago, they had to do a similar thing. They couldn't afford to keep Courtney. The offer they made him didn't compare to Breve. So they just realised that they needed to allow Lewis Ludlum and Courtney Laws to go because they knew they had Henry Pollock coming through. They knew that Tom Pearson had so much growth in him. You know, it's a really aligned club. And it's a difficult model to have to coach in to know that at the end of most seasons you're going to have to chop the head off.

13:55Alex Lowe: You're going to have to lose a star name because you can't afford to keep them. But what it, so it highlights the level of coaching throughout the club, Vestie and Dowson, but down to Mark Copley and the academy. but it also shows it also reinforces one of the things that makes the team special which is that core of homegrown tight academy players who know each other personally who trust each other as friends that shines through in their rugby and so it although it creates a challenging coaching scenario it actually also reinforces some of the values that make their team so special and that's the model they've chosen you know they if they earn some more money they could they could have fought to pay more they could have pushed the boat out and kept George Furbank but they've stuck to this model they trust in Pater coming through they trust in in George Hendy and you know they are the best run club in in the country and the results out here prove it.

15:00I'll tell you what George Furbank must be breathing somewhat a sigh of relief today though he wasn't the only one but that pass he put down yeah what a chance that would have been but what a way for him to go out the dream ending fairy tale ending yeah but that's where I'm I

15:16Alex Lowe: agree with you and I would disagree with Dalson Dalson probably looks at different elements that where they were strong like resilience and grit but on a if that if this game's been played at Franklin's Gardens he doesn't he doesn't drop that Mitchell doesn't spill it when he's under when he's being tackled short of the line, Coles doesn't drop it. Do you know what I mean? It's just the tension of a final slightly got to them. Yeah, Furbank would have been kicking himself if they'd lost by a score. Instead, he was out there lifting the heaviest trophy in sport.

15:48Charlie Morgan: This sounds like one of those really benign clichés that sound mad when you say it out loud, but it's almost as if Saints scored too early to sort of settle themselves too early, and I just felt like there was a little bit of maybe relaxing too much and then catching themselves and then getting tense from there. And that moment sort of, for me, the moment that kind of made me think about that was Finn Smith's kick pass that brought about the riddle try for Exeter because that had been on earlier in the game and he sort of hits it without potentially scanning too carefully and Exeter are totally ready for it.

16:25Charlie Morgan: and then all of a sudden it's 7-5 and Saints are sort of an extra right there while Saints have had all this pressure and had all this fluency but that's what made it a great final as well is that Chiefs threw some shots they threw some shots and really constricted Saints at times and you want both sides to contribute and that absolutely happened

16:47Alex Lowe: You just described it as a great final it was a compelling final but funnily enough the the like i was sitting in the press box the friend of mine to my right who works with a pa just said to me which way do you think this is going to go during the hydration break and i was like i don't know it just feels like exeter have just got this they've got something about them today they are just not going to let this happen and then like within five minutes saints have scored twice but that's what that's what i mean about it got to that point so compelling is absolutely the right word for it because you just couldn't be shouldn't no side could ever hold on to the momentum for long enough up until that point heading into the final quarter it was it was a real wrestle um and yeah it was it was great i did enjoy it i wouldn't put up there my top few finals but that doesn't mean it wasn't it wasn't really memorable for loads of other reasons a

17:44Charlie Morgan: little bit of shade from dowson towards top 14 and super rugby as well which i enjoyed saying obviously he's talking about the Toulouse wrestling blowout in the top 14 semi and the Hurricanes Chiefs that Alex has already kind of referenced that was a proper final great is wrong proper final you can have that there's something in that though isn't there for the Prem like if you were a fan leaving here or a fan watching at home or listening to this I'd almost say it doesn't matter what club you support book your tickets for next year's final when they come on sale because it's a brilliant day This is, you know, OK, this wasn't one of the one-score games that, you know, six of the last seven finals coming into today were one-score games.

18:22But it felt like it was. It felt like it was. And I would say that Sarri's sale, which wasn't a one-score game, felt like it for a lot of it as well. Like, there's something about this final now, isn't there, that it so often delivers?

18:31Alex Lowe: It's a great day. I tried to tee it up in my big match preview in the Times on Saturday morning. And as I just thought about it, you know, the line I used was that big England games here are quite an exclusive occasion. But this is a people's day. this is a game for the people you see jerseys from across the Prem because tickets were on sale all year

18:51Charlie Morgan: loads of bath ones today

18:53Alex Lowe: but also you see jerseys you see club jerseys local community teams of lads come up from all around the country to come and watch it it's just a great celebration of club rugby and I know the Prem as of next season will officially no longer be connected to the leagues below it but I think in spirit it still will it still it will still represent the day out when the the whole game can come and enjoy a great event because it's always like it's always good weather it's it has now been seven years in a row i think like felt tight and compelling and unpredictable unpredictable i mean the league has slightly shifted it used to be used to advertise itself as the closest league in in the world because statistically the winning margins were played to that.

19:44Alex Lowe: This year obviously they don't. The blowouts have been ridiculous at times and actually a bit of a scar on the league at times and Steve Borthwick will have watched a lot of the Prem this season and gone this is of absolutely no help to England whatsoever. But it has been unpredictable, definitely been unpredictable and I think when it's reached its kind of climax when you've got to the sort of the quarter-final that Saracens and Exeter had to play the two semis and today they've all needed winning but they've all required the winning team to produce something to dig to dig deep to be to be high class or full of high character to get over the line and so if Bothick wasn't so impressed with what he saw for most of the regular season which I suspect he probably wasn't.

20:32Alex Lowe: I think the knockout stages will have pleased him as he prepares to take England on tour on Wednesday. And as you were saying before we started recording, Alex, pleased that Northampton have been pushed in the way they have in that final? I think he will be because he won't want Finn Smith to make those decisions and those mistakes at Ellis Park in two weeks time against the Springboks. But the fact that he's made them and didn't crumble, and kept going and kept you know what what both it wants and what the Prem doesn't really give is experience for his players of tight matches that have to go and be won and that's what that's what we had today coming into that final quarter Saints had to go and win it or someone had to go and win it and for for both were given that such a core of his team will be from Northampton I think he'll not not over he doesn't support anyone but privately from an England perspective he'll enjoy the fact that so many of his players helped to find a way to win the game and one of those players was Henry Pollock the man of the match Alex you're writing about him this week but didn't think it was quite as impressive a performance as what we saw in the semi-final but even so you know Pollock's performances in these playoffs has been impressive yeah his work rate's insane and he just never he just never stops and he's a constant irritant I think at the moment sitting in a really positive way around the breakdown for example within 90 seconds so northampton score in the left-hand corner from where we are now i think in after 110 seconds he touched the ball three times already by that point then mcparlin puts the and not just touched it like made three big impacts already in the first minute and a half mcparlin puts a kick in exeter collide um fairway boso and woodburn and Clyde and St.

22:15Alex Lowe: Scour. So right from the outset, he was driving Northampton. And I think what's impressive, he wasn't trying to deliver highlights real stuff. And that's the message that's been given to him by a lot of coaches for a lot of years, that everyone knows how special a talent he is, that he's capable of pulling a rabbit from the hat. And we've seen him score wonder tries in Europe and in the Prem. And when he tore Leinster aside in the Champions Cup semi-final, he caught them by surprise. they didn't really expect, they didn't know this kid. Everyone knows him now. He's a marked man. He's a targeted player.

22:49Alex Lowe: And what I think is impressive is from that pantomime performance at Welford Road six weeks ago, when he was looking for trouble and playing the fool, and he went out there to try and make an impact because Saints were 30 points down, and he was trying to do something. and he's a guy who's, if you watch him, he doesn't often know what to do with his energy. There's too much energy and if he channels it incorrectly, he could go and produce the sort of behaviour that he did at Welford Road where he was idiotic, frankly. But I think a lot of people told him his fortune after that. I suspect Ollie Chesson told it to him on the field.

23:31Alex Lowe: But people close to him would have had a word with him after that. And the reaction since then I think has been pretty stark. the way that he has been playing hasn't been to to steal the limelight it's been for the team and effective like there was a scuffle in the in the dead ball area after Jenkins try and it was notable to me that Pollock was nowhere near it now I look I look for him he was he was he was on the

24:00Charlie Morgan: far post he was minding his mind his own business yeah two months ago six weeks ago he would have

24:06Alex Lowe: 100 % and he left it alone now people don't change character overnight but there's been a shift in focus for him I think in the last two months of this season bear in mind he's a marked man like I said he's under much more scrutiny but his involvements the stats will show that his involvements are better than they were last year his overall carrying and error rate is down so the numbers play out a certain narrative but there are character behavioural things which he was still liable to do and I think, I'm still not sure he'll start a test for England, certainly against the Springboks, but anyone who had concerns he might be a liability off the bench at Ellis Park, I don't think he should have those concerns any longer.

24:51I think he's demonstrated a real shift in mentality.

24:54Charlie Morgan: I think there's been three lessons from the back end of the season from that same starting point that Alex is talking about. I was at that game at Welford Road and thought exactly the same. I thought it was actually the first time I've seen him play where the histrionics have overshadowed. And he still actually was all right in that game, what he did actually on the pitch. But so there's the behaviour thing. He just looks more focused. I think there's a big lesson in how Saints balance the rest of the pack around him. So starting Ed Prowse with JJ van der Meschhoff the bench, but also Tom Pearson, you mentioned him earlier, outstanding today in that bigger seven.

25:26Charlie Morgan: And then Kemeny looking after the line out. England have to heed those lessons, I think, as far as how they use him. They've got to get that ballast around him in the rest of the pack and get that. Although he was taking line outs today at the front of the line, wasn't he, Henry Pollock? But to just make sure those bases are covered. And then the third one, I just think the longer he's on the pitch, because of the remarkable engine he has, those highlight moments are going to crop up because he has the instinct and the knack, I guess, of producing them. But also the output you get from him is remarkable.

25:55Charlie Morgan: Greg Fislow is another one. They're just extremely fit guys, and the amount of content in a Pollock and a Fizzleow performance is just huge. And, yeah, we saw all of that come to the fore today. I actually thought it was an absolutely deserved man of the match.

26:11Alex Lowe: Yeah, I still think England go into Ellis Park with Chessham at six, Ben Earle at eight, and Tom Curry at seven. But I can see Pollock being on the bench. I mean, he's been on the bench for a year. I still think that's probably where England see him. As you say, Charlie, bring him on, but make sure that you've got the cattle around him to allow him to just, it's not that he roams free, but it allows him to get involved in everything. And one of the things that I was disappointed at in the Six Nations when England did use him is that he looked so robotic in how he was playing, like he was just following a formula.

26:49Alex Lowe: and that isn't how you get the best out of him. He needs to be involved three times in 90 seconds, straight from the kick-off, if you're going to get the best out of him. I just remember being here for the Ireland game and Ireland went for him that day, but England, to your point, Charlie, England weren't balanced right to pick him. They played three sevens, so they didn't have enough ballast to go forward and so none of them played well because they were overrun. Five minutes into the game, he's being pinned down by his Lions teammate James Ryan who's like ruffling his hair and all that and then he gets up and his job is to sprint from the five metre line on this side of the field where we are all the way across take his position on the far side of the field to sit into the structure meanwhile the plays going on play that he could and if he was with Saints would be affecting as positively as he can he was out of the game and I you know I think England this is not a conversation about England but through that Six Nations England didn't use their talents anywhere near how they should be this is quite a big lesson in the balance as Charlie says of Saints of how to get the best out of these guys for England and I think with Henry Pollock he had such a sensational breakthrough season last season to then back it up particularly at the end of the season here and it's pretty impressive for a young guy let's take a really quick break here the other side we'll we'll wrap up and also give some thoughts on Exeter as well

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29:10PwC. So you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. A BetterHelp ad. Hold on. One second. I just need to...

29:29What if you had a room where no one interrupts? No notifications. No expectations. Just space to talk. With BetterHelp, therapy happens in a space that's yours. Visit betterhelp.com slash randompodcast for 10 % off your first month of online therapy. Okay, we'll have the final word on the Saints who are the victors today in just a second. Charlie, just maybe a word on Exeter. As I said at the top of the pod, I thought they actually played really, really well overall, given the fact that they were the underdogs, given the fact that, as Rob Baxter said to us in our pod from Sandy Park on Thursday, They did it the hard way this season of the fight to get into the top four, having to go away in a semi-final, a shorter turnaround for the final.

30:17I thought they were really, really good and can be incredibly encouraged from the season that they've had. Just kind of thoughts on Exeter at the end of this campaign. I should say, actually, because Will, it's his favourite stat that he loves saying, still no team has won the Prem from third. He'll be delighted. I'll get that in there for him.

30:34Charlie Morgan: I think it's been an accelerated turnaround, hasn't it? I think you don't see a squad with that much turnover settle and excel as well. So they clearly have, and how many squads has Rob Baxter overseen? He's been vocal in his point of view that this is a special one as far as the buy-in they have with one another. The challenge for him, and he's just touched on it now, the challenge for players like Harvey Skinner, who's had an excellent season, his best season in senior rugby, The challenge of his fly half now is to make sure he's consistent next season and to go again and make sure that they maintain this impetus.

31:13Charlie Morgan: So losing Lenny Ketow, who's clearly a game-breaker for them, but Tom Hooper's sticking around. He's been excellent, I think. I think it could be a marker for them because a lot of that core is reasonably young. There's a lot spoken about how Henry Slade is the bridge between the eras. But Duff Jenkins, what a figurehead he is. And it's a shame, really, that his yellow card was such a turning point because he emptied himself again, scored an excellent try. And there's just so much to be credited about Exeter for the way they, as I said earlier, contributed to this final, stayed in the fight, brought Saints into the trenches, and it's really, really promising.

31:51Charlie Morgan: But Rob Baxter being Rob Baxter, somebody asked him about Campbell-Riddell in the post-match, and he said, look, in a couple of days I'll be ringing Campbell-Riddell and saying, great, you dipped your toe in, you've got to go again. and that will be the message for this whole squad and if they heed that message with the changes that are going to happen to every squad they'll be excellent they're on to a good thing for a few more seasons to come How much though, Alex, will they miss Le Niquetau and every team has their players that depart and turnovers in squad but he's been immense, hasn't he?

32:21Alex Lowe: He's been one of those integral signings that has helped transform this team he's given them go forward he's abrasive I think him and Hooper you sign two Australian internationals, you don't necessarily sign Australian internationals for edge and physicality often. But Hooper, I think, has been fantastic in the same way as Kemeny has been for Saints. But Iketau, you know, we talked a lot, you know, when Quinns were winning and they had Esther Hazen at 12. If you're a 9 and 10 who've got someone at 12 like Iketau who can run with that power, but also pass, I was about to demonstrate it, which meant taking my mic away, but who can stay so square and commit maximum defenders until the last second and then give a pass basically without looking.

33:15Alex Lowe: That is a rare skill. And he executed it for the Cam Riddle try, actually. Just a short little pass, but he's so square that the defender's got no choice. that's high class and I think I had a quick chat with Tom Hooper after the semi-final and I think the experience of being in the Prem for a super rugby player is enormous because it's a long season, super rugby finished today but it only started in January to play through a Prem season the weather seasons you have to play the styles of rugby that you have to shift through depending on the opposition but also the conditions how abrasive it is, even the Challenge Cup experiences that Exeter had this year.

34:03Alex Lowe: Hooper talked about going away to Italy and going to Paris twice. Like, Iketal was a fine player for Australia against the Lions last summer. I think he'll go back an even better player. And that's not a kind of the Northern Hemisphere is better than the Southern Hemisphere comment. It's just about the experiences that he'll have had. The Aussies don't play South Africans anymore outside of test matches. when they come to Europe you just face a whole load of different challenges length of the season is a challenge the style of rugby is a challenge it's different and I I think he's class I think Exeter will miss him and I think he'll be more dangerous for the Wallabies because of it and he's going back with a lot of competition for his place because Angus Crichton's coming over from the NRL he's got his sights on that Wallabies 12 jersey as well so that'll be one to watch but yeah it's hard to as Quinn's have shown with Estes and it's really hard to replace a 12 like that

34:58Charlie Morgan: Word on Manny Ferraboso maybe I think it was an absolute no brainer to bring him in and start him and almost rush him through that return from a fractured jaw mad to say that he's playing after a fractured jaw in a matter of weeks and Rob Baxter was sort of asked about it wasn't he and said I thought he went okay he probably didn't have his best game and Manny Fabos would say that himself but what he did say was that the you have to feel something for a team to put yourself back through that and to rush back from an injury like that Greg Fislau did it for the semi-final Fabos did it they're made of different they're cut from a different cloth but it says a lot for the collective buy-in they have in the squad

35:39Alex Lowe: it's easy in hindsight I had wondered in the week whether unleashing him for the last 20-25 might have been more beneficial to the squad. Just because I thought he started really well. I thought he was flying around. I mean, I know the collision with Woodburn was really unfortunate, but his general contributions early were really positive, I thought. And he almost escaped a couple of times, some tough carries and some good contributions. I thought he played well early, but I thought he just faded a little bit. and you just wonder if you send him on with 20 minutes to go, but then maybe it's not 17, whatever it was, three points in it at the time, 17, 14 at the time.

36:22I think he defended really well. His energy in defence was rigid. The moment where it was he kind of rushed out to cut off Curtis Langdon to stop the pass out wide and then bounce back up, which was when there was that mad collision with him and Furbank. Like defensively, I thought it was so impressive given the injury he's had. But I guess maybe they might have done that if Paul Brown-Bampo was fit. Yeah. And maybe because he wasn't, therefore he came straight back in. I think that would have been ideal for them,

36:45Alex Lowe: would have been to start Brown-Bampo and have Faioboso. I mean, to be honest, either way, because Brown-Bampo's had a big season. Yeah. He sort of lives in the shadow a bit of Faioboso and now Cam Riddle, who's really flown onto the scene. But Brown-Bampo's had a big season for Exeter, and he was missed today because they just lacked that extra zip that one of those coming on late could have brought to just try and break that pattern that we talked about earlier that had set in of Exeter defending constantly. They needed something to break out and a Brown Bampo or a Fabio Boso late on could have done that.

37:24Alex Lowe: But Manny at that point was, I think he'd given everything and he was sort of in that defensive mindset as well. Let's just try and hold them out. Yeah, it wasn't to be then for Exeter. as I've said already I thought they actually acquitted themselves pretty well today but just one of those things they came up against a really high quality Northampton side shall we leave it on them final word on Northampton as we've said already second title in three years the dominant force at the moment you feel in the English club game particularly when you factor in that they reached the Champions Cup final last season is that the next challenge for them fighting on two fronts?

37:58Charlie Morgan: I think they already are which is a huge achievement I think getting to the knockout stages consistently now as part of a salary cap league while still going pretty well domestically, that's really good. You know, that's a big achievement and a big effort to be doing. So to continue that, I think they would love that trophy. I think for any Prem side to do that, whether or not they go well domestically that season would be huge. All right, we will leave it there from here at Twickenham just to flag the England squad for the upcoming Summit Internationals is out on Monday isn't it so make sure you pick up a copy of the times and are looking online for everything the guys are going to be writing on that Alex

38:49Alex Lowe: very scratchy performance for the England 15 on Friday night against France not good was it not you know as easily Rob Baxter said the other week about all this prep time does it really make a better team England had a couple of alignment camps They were in largely, this is most of the squad were in camp and they didn't really produce the goods on Friday night. Now it wasn't their strongest team, there were players playing who won't go on tour. You know, players like Maxi Jomo I'd imagine won't be in that squad on Monday. But I think there were players who wanted to take their opportunity, Benard Jansi van Rensburg and Noah Collori, who I don't think really did.

39:27Alex Lowe: But the good news for Steve Borthwick is that George Martin came through unscathed. Alex Coles came through this game unscathed I'd say good news for Borthwick because that would give him the second row partnership he wants of Coles and Martin with Chessham at six and Mauro Otoji who's currently on holiday based on his Instagram can stay on holiday and not have to rush home and pack his boots he'll get the summer off which is a whole other conversation which isn't for this pod. Do you think that feels fantastic

39:57Charlie Morgan: though for Mauro Otoji to be going, yes, I can stay here.

40:01Alex Lowe: He's just phoned BA to extend my flight home by a month. I'm staying out here. It's a much wider conversation, but Maratoji needs the summer. He's been overplayed. He's had a huge burden with captaincy of three teams in the last 12 months. How English rugby's got to a point where the England captain is being rested for a test match against the world champions is a whole other podcast. and it's an evident failing of the system. But he does need a summer off. And I agree with what you wrote, Alex, that Mauro Otoje either needs a rest or he doesn't. It shouldn't have been contingent on players coming through.

40:41Alex Lowe: No, but thankfully it's now not contingent on that. Yeah. Well, I mean, it was, but thankfully he's not going to be forced to go. Yeah, exactly, exactly. We will leave it there. Another Prem final, another Prem season comes to the end. Northampton Saints, the champions, congratulations to them. You can send us an email about anything about this game or as we head into the summer and England's internationals. The email address is theruckatthetimes.co.uk. Alex, Charlie, ready to pack your bags to head off to South Africa?

41:07Charlie Morgan: Not quite yet, but will be, for sure.

41:10Alex Lowe: Will be. We go... When do you go? I go on Saturday. Sunday night. OK. So you've got a week. So we'll convene in Johannesburg on Monday for the next pod. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, exactly that. Next pod will be with you. Well, we're releasing this on Saturday. So a week on Monday. I'm getting my timelines correct. Week on Monday, where the boys will be in Johannesburg. It all comes around pretty quickly. Appreciate you listening. This has been The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times. At PwC, we optimise the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible.

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